the clock has officially started. the judge overseeing donald trump's civil fraud case officially entered into the

record and order that forces trump to pay the $454 million, including interest, he owes the state of new york within the next 30 days. mr. trump will also have to make a daily interest payment of $111,000 for each day he does not fork up the catch. if you are doing the math here at home here, that is another million dollars roughly every nine days. not long after that order came down today, trump's attorneys in the e. jean carroll lawsuit filed a motion to request extra time to pay the $83 million he owes in that case. between these two lawsuits, donald trump is on the hook for more than half a billion dollars. and it is totally unclear if donald trump actually has that much money at his disposal. trump claimed in the deposition last april that his business had $400 million of cash on hand, which is a lot of money.

but it is considerably less than what he owes right now. new york attorney general letitia james has already said she will start seizing trump's assets if he does not pay. so, donald trump is in a bind. he could try to borrow the forward $54 million $454 million he owes new york state -- and donald trump already owes a lot of money to a lot of people. we don't have a completely current snapshot of trump's finances, but according to the financial disclosure forms he filed to run for president in 2024, as of a year ago, trump owed more than $50 million for the mortgage on trump tower, at least another 50 million for the -- doral mortgages golf course. but more than 50 million for the mortgage on 40 wall street. between five and 25 million for the mortgage on mar-a-lago. -- and for his hotel in new york, and the one in chicago. all told, donald trump owed as

much as $375 million for the mortgages on just his properties alone. now, all of that might be normal for a real estate empire. but what will trump's creditors think about his ability to pay back those loans, now that he is on the hook for nearly half a billion dollars in fines? and that he is facing federal criminal prosecution in multiple states? the banks and financial institutions that lent donald trump hundreds of millions of dollars to help build and expand the trump brand, they cannot be happy right now. will any of them really want to lone donald trump any more money? could they start demanding he pay back the money he owes them presently? well, there is actually a

historical precedent for all of this. back in the early 1990s, trump business empire was on the brink of insolvency. he had stretched himself in with casinos in atlantic city, and a fancy yacht, and for whatever reason, his own airline company. trump had burrowed a ton of money from the banks to pay for all of this. and these businesses were not doing well. so, the banks got together and decided it was time to rein in donald trump's finances. >> trump had long -- himself as a winner. now, he was looking like a loser. >> it's quickly as the banks loved him, that's as quick as they saw him as a pariah. he was like, oh, it's donald trump. they did not want to have anything to do with him. they want their money, and they wanted to be rid of donald trump. >> the bankers descended on trump tower. >> when you were talking to him in these meetings, it just didn't seem he had any idea how big the problem was, or how it

would be resolved. but he, as far as being a ceo, in understanding numbers, and understanding the ramifications, it doesn't seem like he took economics are counting in college. >> and sold the yacht of the airline. >> -- the trump shuttle, where they -- >> and put trump on a $454 million a month allowance. exchange, we would continue to promote the business. >> that is the real story of don trump's business legacy, the man who inherited a real estate empire from his father, dug himself into such deep financial trouble that he had to be bailed out by the very banks that lent him money in the first place. and then he did it all over again. trump has repeatedly schemed his way into convincing people to give him money, whether he

is defrauding banks about the value of his real estate holdings, or convincing his most loyal supporters to pay for his legal bills. donald trump has usually found a way to get other people to pick up the tab for him. but now, for the first time, he is facing accountability for his scheming, right here in new york. the state that bore the brunt of his shekari the chicanery for decades -- was a congresswoman from new york. it was five years ago when donald trump's fixer, michael cohen, was called up to capitol hill, to testify about his former boss. a lot of the questioning focused on trump's racism, and his hush money payments, and

his potential ties to russia during the brun2016 campaign. but when newly elected congresswoman alexandria ocasio- cortez was called upon, she focused on a relatively obscure part of donald trump's business dealings. >> to your knowledge, did the president ever provide inflated assets to an insurance company? >> yes. >> who else knows that the president did this? >> allen weisselberg, ron liebman, and matthew calamari. >> and we are with the committee find more information on this? do you think we need to review his financial statements and his tax returns in order to compare them? >> yes. and you would find it at the trump org. >> that moment set in motion a line of inquiry that led to the order today, filed a few hours ago. and now donald trump has just 30 days to pay the state of new york nearly half a billion dollars and counting. joining me now to discuss is congresswoman alexandria ocasio- cortez. she represents, of course, the 14th district of new york. it's great to see you in person. so, my first is -- it's amazing watching that tape. and i wonder if -- that was your freshman year. >> yeah, one of my first hearings as well. >> did you ever imagine that that line of inquiry would lead to the moment we find ourselves in now? >> i don't think anybody saw the scale, the degree of this ruling that has come down. but i think even when donald trump was first running in 2016, people did say, nobody

knows donald trump like new yorkers to. and he had such a notorious reputation for this kind of shady dealing in construction and real estate and contracting, famous for not really paying out his contracts, and fleecing out working people all across new york city. we knew him as a fraud for longer and better than almost anybody else in the country. and really, that line of questioning that we just saw, was inspired by trump links, which is right by the bridge that connects the bronx in queens, which is the borough -- the two boroughs -- that i represent. and i drive across that bridge all the time, going from family to family, visiting in the

community. and that also was built using a public private land deal. and so, we know that there are so many of the shady dealings that are going on. and now it only was this just an example of donald trump defrauding, for his own personal enrichment, but also fleecing the working people of new york city in order to enrich himself. >> yeah. we never have enough time, but we began that line of questioning, or ended it, talking about driving by that golf course. and it sounds like the trump name became almost talisman like, representing this two tiered system, representing everything that's wrong with the world. and i guess i wonder, sort of, as a new yorker, as a person that is trying to make change in government, what this moment means for you? this is a day when the order has gone through, with the clock starts ticking, $111,000 a cruise every single day that trump does not pay this. he seems to be having money

problems. his lawyers are saying, can we push off the date by which we have to pay this, both here and in the e. jean carroll case? what is the moment feel like for you, as you watch this all unfold? >> i think it's such an important moment. because, in this country, in this moment, we as americans have gotten so used to the wealthy committing financial crimes, and fleecing working people and getting away with it, time after time after time. that golf course that was their, in trump blinks, just at the edge of it, is -- public housing. and you have people who can't even get adequate heat in the wintertime, that are up on a high-rise apartment, or up on a high rise, several feet in the air, and they have to overlook this golf course that we subsidize with public resources, where they can't even be sure their drinking water does not have lead in it. and so, to me what this ruling

finally starts to represent is that the buck is starting to stop here. donald trump has been able to play this shell game. and he's been able to swap one debt for another, and when leverage for another. and now, with this ruling, the state of new york using, you actually have to pay up now. and our hope is that, with those assets, when we return them back to the public, that they can be used to further -- not only further the good of the public, but also to send a message that this is a justice system that you cannot and should not buy your way out of. and for too long, that the wealthy have. and so, this is not just about trump. i think this should be a message to all people who think that they can fleece this system and get away with behavior like this that comes at the cost of everyday working families. >> it's so interesting that you say that. because the trumps have said,

this decision is going to ruin new york. new york is over, by virtue of holding us accountable for fraudulent behavior, everyone is -- i don't know what that says about new york. [laughter] i think we actually have the sound here. can we hear what eric trump had to say about his father's travails? >> you have a lost state right now, where you have businesses fleeing, fleeing, fleeing. and you have a company, like our representative, that paid over $300 million in taxes, to -- my father built the skyline of new york city. and this is the thanks he gets? it >> just architecturally, i take issue with the idea that trump built the sideline's skyline. -- as much as it is sort of comic that they are saying the departure of donald trump is going through new york, you can see how this line that new york's and the business titan might have some residents in certain -- >> for sure. >> i wonder what your response would be.

>> new york is so any business that wall street is located here, that midtown manhattan is throwing up billionaires'row. we have the top 1% not only in the united states, but globally, constantly trying to purchase and gobble up real estate here. something tells me that that is full of hot air. and in fact, we want to talk about new york city, and who is leaving. there is such an interest in peddling this myth and this lie that having a fair and in forcing a fair tax system, is -- when they did actually shows that it's the opposite. rent in new york city, just like the rest of the country, has gotten out of control. our housing crisis has gotten to such epic proportions that, not just the poor, the working class, the middle class -- upper middle class people can't even afford to live in the city anymore. if anyone is leaving, it is the

actual people that make new york city work. it is the working class. and so, to eric trump, i would say, you know what? you can let go a couple of those towers, and maybe we turned them into public housing, so keep glenn actually afford to live here. >> put that on a mug. i do want to ask you, because we are talking about his mom wears seems like there is accountability, if not a downright reckoning. are you worried at all about whether the criminal justice system will actually hold donald trump into account? and i want to ask you this as someone who survived january 6th. it was a this really terrifying moment for you, from the accounts you have shared publicly. it is something the house explored robustly through the january 6th committee. but something the department of justice appeared sort of slow to take up in terms of its investigation and prosecution of donald trump. >> yes. >> -- >> i do have extraordinary concern about it. >> can you talk a little bit about, if you had a message for merrick garland, who --

>> for me, it's not even as a democrat, but it's as an american. are we really going to see what happened on january 6th, and not have serious consequence for it? if we do not issue, if there is not a clear proceeding that is swift, it is not -- this is not just about an individual case. this is about the message that this stands for our democracy. and if there is not clarity on how unacceptable and how clear the crimes were that happened on january 6th, and leading up to january 6th, then we a creating an open question about whether this is acceptable or not. and that cuts to the core, not just of our justice system, but to our democracy. and we are hurtling towards an

election where you have a donald trump who is more desperate than he has ever been, particularly with this financial ruling. more financially desperate than he's ever been. he was hoarding classified documents about u.s. national security secrets in mar-a-lago. and we don't know the full extent. but what i believe is that donald trump would sell this country for $1 if he thinks that it would benefit himself. and when you have a settlement of over $400 million, we need to be really serious about the stakes of what's happening here. >> yeah, and find out, if anybody post bond for him, who those people actually are. who has half a billion dollars laying around. okay, please stay with us. please, please don't leave. >> of course. >> we have a lot more to ask you about, including republican hypocrisy on immigration, and cruelty on child labor. that is just ahead. s just ahea

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republicans have been ringing alarms about the southern border. >> america's border is under siege. >> we have seen the catastrophic consequences of joe biden's open border policies. >> they are totally leaving the borders open. >> i told the president what i have been seeing for many months. and that is that we must have change at the border. substantive policy change. we must insist that the border be the top priority. i think we have some consensus around the table. everyone understands the urgency of that. and we are going to continue to press forward. >> as late as december of last year, republicans were so incensed about what was happening at the border that they were demanding legislation. it was an invasion! and nothing was more urgent. and then, at the start of this month, they were given what they had been begging for. legislation. legislation featuring severe border restrictions. republicans did not pass it.

they did not even vote on it, because donald trump does not want to fix the border problem that republicans have been monomaniacal -- focused on -- new line of attack. joe biden needs to fix the border by himself. >> he has a broad arsenal of executive authority that he could use right now, he could use yesterday, he could have used months ago, to stem the flow. >> once again, president biden has met republicans where they stand. the white house is reportedly considering new executive action that would effectively shut down the border temporarily in certain circumstances. but in the meantime, all the major players here seem to have lost sight of what immigration means for america, that migrants are part of the fabric of this country, and a crucial part of its workforce. they often do the jobs that no one else wants to do in some of the most labor intensive industries. as republicans in congress try to crack down on immigration, this is the current reality in some republican led states. alone and exploited, migrant children work brutal jobs. mississippi slaughterhouse is

directly responsible for death of migrant teen who we sucked into machinery. in 2023 alone, almost 6000 children were illegally working across the united states, many of them migrants. this is what a department of labor investigator told nbc news about what she saw in one meat processing plant. >> and as we walked, i was just like, that's a kid. that's a kid. >> you have to be very naive and look at some of these kids and go, they are over 18. >> this week, the department of labor announced it would be seeking an injunction against a company, fayette janitorial service that employed children as young as 13 to clean slaughterhouse quitman. in one case, a 14-year-old had his forearms sliced to the bone. despite all of that, according to the economic policy institute, since 2021, 12

states have enacted bills to weaken child labor laws. ten of those are republican led states. one of the democratic states was new mexico. they changed the law to let 18- year-olds serve alcohol. republicans seem to be willing to throw children into the literal meat grinder rather that allow adult immigrants to enter and work in this country. congresswoman alexandria ocasio- cortez put it this way. >> many of these republican legislatures would rather rollback child labor laws and put 11 and 13-year-olds back in the workplace than allow immigrants into their community, and do what they have always done. >> congresswoman ocasio-cortez we'll be back with me to discuss this and more, coming up next. up next. want the >> ercongresswoman ocasio-corte we'll be back with me to discuss this and more, coming

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this election is about who shares your values. let me share mine. i'm the only candidate with a record of taking on maga republicans, and winning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values.

>> there are even some lawmakers in states like wisconsin, ohio and iowa that are proposing the loosening of child labor laws in their state, because they have so many jobs that are left unfulfilled. and many of these republican legislatures who would rather roll back a child labor laws, and put 11 and 13-year-olds back in the workplace then

allow immigrants into their community, and do what they have always done. >> republicans all over the country a including last night in kentucky, are voting to roll back child labor laws, calling it a thoughtful solution to get more workers back in the workforce. at the same time, they are blocking immigration reform that could give adult migrants the opportunity to fill those vacant jobs, many of them dangerous injuries industries. we are back with congresswoman alexandria ocasio-cortez, democrat from the great state -- our state -- of new york. it's great to see you. thank you for staying extra long on friday night. i wonder what you think this sort of ethical moral calculation here is to say, shut the borders down, as these republicans fully and we'll know they need a workforce, probably have migrants, to work in these really degrading, dehumanizing, dangerous jobs, in places like slaughterhouses,

and would rather have children that are already in the country work them. >> there is no ethical or moral calculation here that i think republicans are working with. first and foremost, the amount of protections that they heap on to these places that are so dangerous themselves operating so unethically, and making them so dangerous for any human, adult or trial, to be operating in. but the idea that republicans, in order to win an election, say, we need to hermetically seal the border, when they know that that is economic self sabotage to the u.s. economy. and they are saying, let's do it anyway. and to compensate for the negative effects, we are going to allow and throw peoples kids into factories. that is what they are doing in rolling back child labor laws while being as xenophobic and anti immigrant as they are. and while ginning up this false narrative about this being a crisis. and by the way, by them also blocking and preventing any legislation that will provide not just a path to citizenship, but a path to work papers, a path to allowing people who want to work to be paired with american businesses who need people to work. and there is not only no moral

calculation. there is no economic calculation. there is no logical calculation. there is only a political calculation. and that political calculation is, we are going to keep whining about it. we are going to keep pretending this is a crisis while contributing to actual problems. and then we are going to block the solution so that we can campaign on it over and over and over. and we can call it caravans, we can call it migrant crises. we can call it family

separation. and they will just recycle it over and over and over again in order to gin up just so much animosity and destruction in this country. and racism in this country. because that's the only thing that the republican party even is standing on at this point. >> you say it's a political calculation. i think that that part -- it is clear. but at the same time, it's like, if you told me -- they are trying to weaken child labor laws, as on its face, as a headline. that should not be politically expeditious. the reason they manage to be able to do it is because nobody's talking about migrants anymore. nobody's talk about the value of migrants. and that includes democrats. >> absolutely! >> are you dismayed that, this white house, it acknowledges, or believes it has a political problem on the border, and it is playing decidedly on their republic interfere in terms of what it suggested, wouldn't

agree, to the executive orders that have been sort of reported on thus far. does that -- are you dismayed by that? and the sort of contours of this conversation? >> i am dismayed. and i very often find myself in shock at our current political situation. i'm really in shock at the depravity of the republicans. but sometimes -- and this is long what i have been saying -- sometimes we, as democrats, have to grow a little bit of a spine around here. and part of that means defending immigration as a core value of the united states of america. yes, on a moral and an identity basis, but on a nuts and bolts basis. the united states, our culture, our population, our economy needs immigration like lungs need our surgeon. and when you cut it off, we will start to die. when you look at other developed economies that have adopted xenophobic or more closed border policies, they enter into decades of economic stagnation. you don't need to look far for that to happen.

we do not have to be afraid to say, immigration is one of the best things to happen to the united states of america. and what we need to do is champion policies to make it easier to be documented, to get a work permit, and a lot of folks there is a line to get into this country. maybe we should make one that works. because, without that, it chest -- we see the inhumanity of a dysfunctional system. >> yeah. >> and so instead of buying into this republican rhetoric, because what is happening is that we are pouring,. , and that one of the largest law enforcement agencies in the united states of america sits under the -- but how much better off our week today than we were five years ago? despite having passed billions and billions and billions more dollars going into this, and buckling on this over and over again? we need a path to citizenship

in the united states of america. we need to make it easier to have work permits in the united states of america. and we need to be unafraid to unapologetically defend immigration, and make it easier to be an immigrant and to migrate to the united states of america. because god knows we need it. >> yeah. and this is the story of america. the story of immigration. i have to ask you, because we were talking about children, and -- literally children in meat grinders. from the party that is the pro family party. the party that, this week, is facing a sort of crisis as it has pushed the nation towards a sort of christian nationalist agenda, they found themselves in the crosshairs of what it means to be a theocratic party on the subject of ivf. it's abject something donald trump has tried to walk back today. he's -- i'm calling on the alabama legislature two --

republicans and the state are trying to mop up the mess. i just wonder what you think the dawning the reality of this agenda, as it concerns women who are seeking abortions, and immediately abortions, and immediate reproductive imhealth care. people trying to build families, and need fertility support. what is this new to the republican party as we hurdle towards november? >> they know exactly what they are doing. they knew exactly what they were doing, by attacking jobs -- rather, attacking roe v. wade, and attacking it in the way that they did. they're trying to walk back now so that they don't look publicly accountable. but i want to be very clear that this was intentional, and that this is exactly what republicans have been going for. we have seen it. you have the heritage foundation. you have lots of folks who are on record, saying, i'm not only do they want to go after

abortion. not only do they want to go after reproductive freedom. they are going after ivf. they are going after but contraception. we have eight mifepristone ruling that is coming down from the supreme court, and clarence thomas, enriching himself from the same folks who are saying they are trying to control women's bodies quite explicitly. and going beyond that, they also want to control what they call recreational sex. >> yes. >> recreational sex! this is so clearly a patriarchal a theocracy that has embodied itself in the dna of an entire political party of the united states of america. and as women, and as any nonbinary and queer person in this country, they must be defeated. there should never be room for this kind of control by force over another person's body in this country. and they can walk it back as much as they want. they have done this. who put those judges there?

not democrats. >> yeah. >> what not independents. republicans put those judges there. republicans are taking -- bodies by force, and we cannot let them do. it it has to come to an end. >> i have a sense that you will be asked about this again before it is all said and done. it is truly an honor and a pleasure to have you visit us this friday evening in person, they speak so eloquently in passionately about the issues that really matter in this country. thank you so much for your time, congresswoman. >> of course, thank you. >> congresswoman ocasio-cortez, great to see you. when we come back, the connection between this new orleans street musician and a fake biden robocall, and what it means for the november election. plus, down trump's preaching his own type of sermon as he prepares to -- with john heilemann, coming up next. up next. rand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache.

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>> i'm here today because i >> know that to achieve victory in this life, just like in the battles of the past, we still need the hand of our lord and the grace of almighty god. ladies and gentlemen, with your help and god's grace, the great revival of america begins in november 5th, 2024 [applause] . >> that was donald trump speaking to the national

religious broadcasters last night, pitching himself as a christian warrior as he quotes the evangelical vote. at one point he promised that in a second trump white house, quote, no one will be touching the cross of christ. it's hard for me to get it out. trump is counting on evangelicals to deliver a victory for him in the republican primary tomorrow where he's 28 points ahead of nikki haley, the state's governor. haley is vowing to stay in the race no matter what happens tomorrow, waiting for trump to either implode or get convicted. here's part of her latest ad. >> mick masters out james mattis is leaving. roger stone is guilty. michael cohen is going to jail. paul manafort is a convicted felon. >> everywhere he goes, chaos follows him. you don't defeat democrat chaos in the public and chaos. >> joining me is john heilemann, nbc national affairs fought analyst. fresh off the plane from south carolina, i hear. >> yeah. >> let's take a moment to talk about nikki. haley if she basically just

rapture insurance in case trump ends up, why did you think she's able to stay in this race and that she may lose. i think you have republicans, democrats, people like her, people who don't, she's she was to party images trumpian oh she's anti-trumpy and she she there's one part of it that the rapture insurance -- >> yes rapturous. >> former governor sanford said to me she's hanging around there's a bunch of things that could happen to them. trump donald trump could take himself out. his next cheeseburger to could take him out. the legal system could take him out. if you hang around the rim long enough, eventually a ball flies by and you might get a chance to slam it. so that's one thing.

and i think she believes, and i think we can speculate and argue about it all night, and she is saying she thinks trump's going to lose. she's very much on the view of trump was a loser in 2018, 2020, 2022, he's gonna lose in 2024. there's a strategy that says if he loses it is going to be a big up for grabs moment for the republican party after 2024. trump will be gone, and in that moment she will bet in all 50 states, you will campaign for a lot of people, she will raise a lot of money for a lot of people, she will be able to stand up and say i told you so when everybody else thought you stop with this guy, i told you about this guy, he lost, and i'm a new generation. a lot of people say the future of the party of the trump's matt matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene. >> who can no? >> who can? oh nikki haley said i think what she's trying to do with buyers in the seat in the table for south carolina. >> some of the reporting says she's not cultivated fidelity in her own home state she's seen as someone with a national

ambitions that she's not gonna be rewarded by even republicans that might otherwise voted for her and i do wonder staying in the race being sort of the thorn in trump's side for several months on end, does that actually india you to the broader republican party? >> well, look, if you think about the republican party right now you basically have about a third of the party who wants to get rid of trump's. those of people who are with her. they're going to be with her and that's why she still has donors. again, they wanted to hang around the rim, but they think, they're anti trump. a third of the party's pro trump. then there's a third in the middle which they're all gonna vote for trump, but they're not really down enthusiastic. it's really the biggest difference on the ground that you see in iowa, in hampshire, south carolina, as i've done for years and years, it has been the worst primary ever to cover because there is a sense of, like, no energy, even in the trump world. it's like there's more a sort of sense of grudging

acquiescence. his base, obviously, still loves him. but the things that you saw, much more a kind of low energy jab has infected the whole republican party. everyone is sort of like, they have the attitude that some democrats has about joe biden, which is like, all right i'm gonna be with him because i don't like the other guy, but i'll get enthused in the fall. but that, you've been in south carolina. -- i've >> been to trump rallies. >> south carolina primary is a fiery furnace. it's crackling. it's full of energy. every year, every four years it's always one of the most enthralling spectacles in all the primary calendar. and down there right now is just somber effect. everybody is just sort of like sitting back going we all know what's gonna happen. trump's going to win. again, his base loves him but he'll get, he got big crowds today. why? he was in the state all week. he stays in the state all week long and then he is a big rally the night before the primary and of course he feels an arena because he hasn't got any other

events. everyone who likes him in the state who has to wait until friday night to show up to see him. like i have a big crowd. well you did one event in seven days. >> he's also, like, he's not necessarily directly quoting scripture, but no one, i mean donald trump saying no one will be touching the cross of christ. you had won the most famous moments with him when he was a candidate 2016 other asking whether he's old testament and new testament. he said both. >> about equal. >> evangelicals realize the disingenuousness of this. and they buying it? or do they think he's not ready for teleprompters? >> i don't know. this has been, the conventional wisdom on this which i basically think is right, is it evangelicals to side of the d'entremont's going to, that he had decided to mortgage his judicial picks to the federal society and he was gonna give them an anti roe court. and they got that. and i think evangelicals, there are a lot of more true believers, a lot more like we've been fighting to

christianized this nation for a long time, and we've never had a real ally in the white house. the ones who said we thought they were really godly in with us, george w. bush, evangelical, genuine evangelical, he didn't try to overturn roe v. wade. they got on trump in there. they're like well, maybe he's not really a man of god, but he's actually doing stuff that we care about. this obviously leads us into whether that's good for the party in the politics of it and the backlash that it's unleashed, that clearly could be one of the reasons why they lose, not just the presidential level but every level down ticket this time around, but if you're an evangelical voter who's batting in the fight for christian policies for decades, donald trump is the guy who says it. he says he delivers. >> even if he says it in script in this and believe it he's doing it in action. john heilemann, my friend it's great to have you back in new york city. >> south carolina was not the same without you, alex. i've got to tell you.

basically nothing is the same without you. but south carolina, i've never seen anybody devour that low country cuisine the way used to. >> that is me. one day. oh, lord, he is fighting. john heilemann thank you for your time, your genius, and tomorrow i'll be joined by msnbc colleagues as we cover all of the action or lack thereof in the south carolina republican primary. but not action in an exciting way. that will be live starting at 6:30 pm eastern. it's a great way to spend saturday night and have sazerac at home. one more story for you. a street musician who landed in the middle of a presidential election scandal that could have real repercussions in november. that's next. november. that's next.

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>> do you remember that fake biden robocall that thousands of people got just before the new hampshire primary? to try to convince people not to write joe biden's name on their ballots in the democratic race? here's a bit of it. >> what a bunch of malarkey. you know the value of voting democratic on our votes count. it's important that you save your vote for the november election. >> someone has finally come forward and claimed responsibility for making that call. magician paul carpenter has come forward and told nbc news that he was paid to make the fake audio for a consultant connected to democratic presidential campaign of dean phillips. the phillips campaign denies involvement and expressed

outrage about the consultant's alleged involvement. the consultant himself told nbc that an op-ed he plans to publish tomorrow will explain all. but in a lot of ways, who ordered the creation of this one particular fake robocall is less important than how easy it was to make. paul carpenter, the musician, showed in nbc news how to do it. it took him 20 minutes and cost $1. this technology exists. it is out there. it is easy to use, and it is impossible to imagine that it won't be used again. joining me now, alex seitz- wald, senior politics reporter for nbc news and the person who broke this story. alex, first of all, hats off for breaking this story. first, tell me you worked, you sat with the magician, paul carpenter, and he showed you how he did this. how easy was it, and do you think you could do it if you wanted to, on your own? >> yeah, alex, that was really my big takeaway from this story. it's very eery to sit in a

marriott lobby with a guy you met five minutes ago from the internet and have you spend a few minutes and then type of script and have what sounds like your voice coming out of a computer saying something that you never said which is exactly what he did. and it was not part of a sophisticated well-funded cloak and dagger operation. this was essentially a guy goofing around on the internet. he was paid $150 to do this to spoof the biden voice, and it became a huge national phenomenon. as he told, me anybody can do this. i'm not showing you anything you can learn on youtube. so i think when you think about this technology, we shouldn't just think about high-level operatives like a campaign using them, but that some teenagers looking for a laugh on a friday night or gad flies, anyone could be using this technology to post stuff. i really think we are not prepared for what that is gonna mean for politics in our

democracy. >> we may not be and it doesn't seem like such campaigns are, either. the phillips, campaign if you believe what they were, saying they had no idea what was going, on a third party operator who retained, if you will, the magician to make the robocall. but to what degree, as a political reporter, have you seen any interest on the part of campaigns in sort of understanding the potential of ai to really up and things in the election? >> yeah, i mean, this is the first known example of a malicious use of a. i. deepfakes in the wild, in an american campaign. we've been hearing lots of warnings about it but this is the first time it is actually come to pass, and it shows how messy the situations will likely be. the guy who commissioned this call is steve kramer, a well- known mostly democratic operative, working dozens of campaigns for the past 20

years. he was paid over $250,000 by dean phillips campaign but specifically to work on ballot access in two states, which is basically just getting signatures. they say he had no direction, no authority to do this, that he was basically acting totally rogue. we'll see what he has to say when he comes forward. i texted with him but he won't reveal any part of his story yet. but campaigns employ dozens and hundreds of people that you who think this might benefit their candidate even if there's no direction from higher up. and i think that's the tricky part because for a campaign itself i think this is always going to be a little bit too high risk, low reward, to be an official thing that you would do. the prospect of getting caught and the fall out from it is too big. but for somebody loosely connected to your campaign, that's very difficult to control. >> alex seitz-wald, great reporting, alex. thank you for having a little friday night time to talk about it. >> thanks alex. >> that is our show