policy at georgetown law, the author of the important book, policing the womb, robin marti operations director for the west ecalabama winston center and author of the new handbook for a post roe america. coming up another hour of velshi, polls are open in south carolina as republicans primary, any minute now, republican presidential candidate nikki haley is set to cast her own vote in her home state. she is polling far behind donald trump, but with the state being an open primary, meaning, not just republicans are voting, i suppose anything code happened. we'll have a live report, coming up. plus, ukraine is entering the third year of its defense against a full scale russian invasion. where the fighting stance, or attending, and how the future of u.s. aid could change the course of the war for better or for worse. another hour of velshi begins right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good morning. it is saturday, february the 24th i'm.

ali velshi. today marks two years since russia launched its full scale invasion of ukraine. a remarkable milestone for a small country that many people didn't think could last even two months fighting vladimir putin's army. at this very hour, two years ago, unknown to us, a small group of ukrainian soldiers, most of whom had never seen combat before, we are fighting russia for control of antonov airfield, located about 20 miles north of kyiv. russians launched an offensive on the ground and by air and by the afternoon a february 24th, 2022, they managed to push the ukrainians out and hoist the russian flag over the airfield within sight of the high-rises in downtown kyiv. they expected the ukrainians to capitulate, but the ukrainians kept fighting and crucially, they destroyed the runway, rendering that critical airfield unusable to the russian troops. that single move prevented russia from landing cargo

planes that would have brought troops, from heard vehicles, and supplies, the things that would have led to the fall of kyiv. it was a key moments of resistance in the early hours of the war that gave ukrainian forces time to shore up defenses around the capital city. it proved ukrainians have the determination to protect their country. in those early days, the world watched as ordinary citizens lined up to join the army or the civil defense forces or to volunteer to donate blood or bl help in any way they could. skied, the former sitcom starts on president, captivated millions as he posted videos from the streets of kyiv, speaking courts of defiance. trump the upset, zelenskyy was clear on one thing. ukraine can fight off the invasion. but it can't do it alone. the world, led by america, responded and ukraine received the necessary aid from many parts of the globe, but two years later, today, the outlook

is murkier. ukrainians have just withdrawn from the southern city of avdiivka, a major setback that zelenskyy has bluntly attributed to his military's quote, deficits of weapons. meanwhile, a significant faction of the republican party here in the united states continues to grow more isolationist. for months now, they've succeeded in delaying critical e aid to ukraine because donald trump has lobbied hard against it. notably, a u.s. congressional delegation that met with zelenskyy in lviv yesterday, included no republicans. trump meanwhile, is continuing to disparage nato, which has revived concerns about what could happen to the alliance if he wins another term, and whether trump would cozy up to putin again. at a rally earlier this month, trump does for us to say as if nato countries, nato countries, of what ukraine is not one, didn't contribute enough money to the alliance, he would let russia quote, do whatever the hell they want.

meanwhile, putin continues his aggressive posture uttowards th west. russia recently detain the russian american dual citizen on suspicion of treason, allegedly because she donated to a ukrainian charity. russia also upheld the detention of american journalist evan gershkovich, who's been accused of spying, and has been in custody for nearly a year. those actions have appeared more ominous in the wake of the suspicious death of the russian opposition leader, alexei navalny. america has held putin responsible for navalny's death in sia siberian person. earlier this morning, a spokesperson for the family said navalny's body has finally been returned to his mother. yesterday, the biden administration imposed more than 500 new sanctions against russia, in response to navalny's death and the second anniversary of the war in ukraine. some of those sanctions target russia's financial sector and defense industrial base, in i hopes of crippling the country's economy and its military supply

network, but ukraine also needs help recovering and replenishing at some stock of artillery and weapons, asked the retreat in avdiivka has shown. wars are not one alone. zelenskyy will be the first to tell you ukraine summer double resilience is tied to the help is received from his allies. but as some powerful people in our own congress grow weary and disinterested in continuing to help ukraine, they should be reminded that if ukraine falls, putin will be empowered to continue his march across europe. ue ukrainians aren't just fighting to protect their country. they're fighting to preserve democracy for themselves and for the rest of the world. there's also something to be said hiabout the ukrainians, ukrainian people's fortitude. last year, for the first anniversary of the war, and red up with ukrainian parliamentary member alexei concurrent going bucha, a town just outside of kyiv. russia took control of bucha early in the war and committed

a horrific massacre on its residents. one year later, the town of still standing, and determined to recover. but the scars of the war remain. >> if you weren't pointing out the bullet holes in the posts and the trees, it looks normal. >> it looks normal, right. looks like a suburban community, yeah. people are going about their business, their shopping. it's early morning now. you can see traffic is happening. but explain that to me, because when your in kyiv, it looks normal. then, all the sudden, an air raid siren goes off. >> it's very mixed. it's all the time this year, like, it's worse on bad days. some days, some moments, it's absolutely normal. then, something happens. it can be explosion, it can be air raid casignal. it can be i don't know, and at this moment, you realize that the war continues. >> at this point, you realize this war continues.

alexei counterintelligence me now. he's a member of ukrainian parliament. the president of the pace committee on migration,, rockies and displaced persons. mr. goncharenko, it's always an honor to see you. thank you for being with us on a sad day, but an important day, because ukraine just continue to fight next we saw in that last clip but you and you can bucha, last, year we spoke about what ukraine has already gone through and what is to come. tell me about what you are thinking about today about the future of this war and of ukraine? >> thali, thank you very much that you continue to cover ukraine and ukrainian stories. i think that's very important, because some people already in the world sometimes, when i am abroad and some international events, they are asking me so, everything is okay now in ukraine? saying why, why do you think so? oh, it's not so much immediate now. and we thought everything is finished.

so, it does not finished. the war continues. it's very brutal, every day, new attacks. putin continues to try to destroy ukraine and to take its people like a cannon fodder for his next attacks on other countries. that's what really happens. and unfortunately, these days, it's not an exemption. in my natives did the in the black sea and kyiv and other cities, these attacks, they are happening every day. but we are still fighting. we continue to fight. russia, they call themselves, brand themselves the second strongest army in the world. they, for two years, they couldn't take no kyiv, no one on the regional center, even. he said about of teeth got, which we unfortunately lost after four months of russian attack, but to you information, we had 30,000 people before invasion. so, russia does not have any

big successes. in the black sea, ukraine is very successful. we destroyed significant part of srussian navy. we keep russians from the western part of the black sea. we opened the c4 expert of ukraine, which is important. so, where we have weaponry and where our heads are untied, we really show success. >> you bring up an interesting point. the black sea, which two years ago, the russians taken almost full control over, then, of course, their flagship got destroyed, by ukrainian forces. the moskva. now, the russians are largely pushed to the eastern part of the black sea. russians still, though the air raids are common, they do not control the skies over ukraine. obviously, the ukrainians still control the skies, ivan, but ukrainian forces have kept the russians from having total control of the skies over ukraine. these are important developments. >> absolutely. and we cleared the black sea mostly. we keep clean mostly our sky.

russian aircraft can't enter our airspace. yes, russian missiles, that's another story. but aircrafts, not. and just two days ago, ukraine destroyed one of their most important russian aircrafts, a 15, you which is kind of a max aircraft, which is also this type used by american army, and russia has just nine such aircrafts. and two of them are destroyed by ukraine. so, it's more example that we can achieve results. but on the land, the situation is much more harder. but one of the things you should not forget first of all, the -- and the u.s. congress with the supplemental and the support to ukraine, and that desperate needs ammunition and weaponry. secondly, we are fighting with one hand tied. we are boxing with one hand tied. we can't use the weapons on russian territory. we don't receive long-range

missiles. so, i urge once again, through your program and to your you were, is that ukraine needs support to the united states, and we need long range capabilities and we need more ammunition and weaponry, and believe me, in future, united states will definitely benefit from this. because ukraine will be very strong ally of the united states, ready to stand children children with you, no matter where it will be going. oleksiy goncharenko, thank you for continuing to bring this message to, us thank you ntfor always being available , when i call you. >> thank you. >> boy, that's been some interesting times. i've called you in the middle of the night, and you have come to help anour viewers understan what the situation is. stay safe, and we will meet again soon. oleksiy goncharenko it's a member of the ukrainian parliament. up next, we'll dive into the geopolitical implications of ol the war in ukraine, with bill browder's. bill browder, someone who has firsthand experience with russia's history of brutally punishing dissent. , plus a call to order. this week's meeting of velshi

banned book club, between important author, james baldwin. something is a lot about him will be with us. we'll go live to south carolina, where as we speak, voters are casting ballots in the states republican primary. you're looking at a live shot of the polling location in charleston, south carolina, where nikki haley is expected to submit your vote soon. more in a moment. you're watching fell she on msnbc. me fell she on msnbc. with nurtec odt, i can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. ask about nurtec odt.

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and stay connected to the things you love. ah, they'll be like this for hours. hello dad, hello dad, hello da. uh-oh. good bunnies. ahh! all right, i want to bring in the guest who literally wrote the book on what it means to be targeted by vladimir putin. bill browder was the largest foreign investor in russia until 2005, when he was declared a threat to russia national security for exposing corruption in state-owned companies. browder is now head of the global magnitsky justice campaign, which is named for his former lawyer, survey magnitsky, who died in a

russian prison after exposing fraud by government officials. of course, as i mentioned, he's the author of the very important book, freezing order, a true story of russian money laundering, murder, and surviving vladimir putin's wrath. and rent notice, a true story of high finance, murder, and one man's fight for justice. important books you should read. bill browder joins me now. bill, good to see you. thank you for being with us. i've talked to a couple members of parliament who you know in ukraine about the ukrainian side of the equation. i want to talk about russia. russia has knocked on this for two years after the full-scale nation or ten years after the first invasion. russia has an election at the end of the month, vladimir putin is likely to, when despite his likelihood of winning, somehow, the most popular opponent of his has died in jail, and another popular opponent of his is in jail for the next quarter century or so. give me your evaluation of what's going on on the russian side? >> putin, he has blocked

himself into a corner not just in the last two years, but over the last 24 years. basically, he has run russia as a personal piggy bank for himself, and about 1000 other people during this 24 year period. they have stolen what i estimate to be a trillion dollars, 1000 billion dollars from the russian state. and all the rest of the people in russia have been suffering in abject poverty. and so, putin after a certain period of time, starts to fear his people. starts to fear public uprising, start to feel people getting angry with him. i believe that's the reason why he started this war in the first place. as a distraction. and as the war has ground up and spit out hundreds of thousands of russian soldiers and ruined the economy, he's even in a more desperate situation, having to put the screws even tighter on people. there's no longer any pretense of even trying to get the russian people to love him. they just have to fear him. he killed his biggest

competitor, alexei navalny, a week ago. out of fear that somehow, alexei navalny would somehow jeopardize his situation. and he's going into this, and i don't even want to use the word election, because -- >> that's a good point, yes. >> the insult to the concept of election. he's going into this fake, you, now this pantomime of an election, in order to try to create the impression that he's still got popular support, but he doesn't. there's no reason why anyone in russia would support him. he's been around for 24 years. their life have not improved. they've gotten worse. everybody is afraid to speak up. everyone's afraid of dying in battle. people are leaving the country. planes are literally having to make emergency landing from nightly basis because they don't have parts. it's a mess over there. all he can do is repress, or, press and repress. at some point, it doesn't work anymore. we don't know at what point that's going to be. could be soon.

it could be never, but this is not a stable system. >> phil, we're watching, by the, way in a moment, i'm gonna put it up on the screen. nikki haley about to vote in her own primary in south carolina. she's not gonna win the primary election, but that she is. coming in with her family to vote. this is important, because the future of russia depends, in many cases, on the future of the war in ukraine, depends on many cases not republicans in the united states do right now. nikki haley is somebody who has, at this stage of the game, more experience with foreign affairs then a number of the other people in the republican party, but to what degree are you surprised? because the magnitsky act you had passed was passed overwhelmingly by congress "! republicans democrats, this was not a partisan issue. russia and its human rights and it's lack of elections and its own proper elections, it's lack of democracy, was something americans were united against, and republicans led on. how important is it, but that's

not happening anymore? >> it's a very interesting situation. when my lawyer, sergei more than, skiers murdered in 2009, i went to washington to lobby for something called the beckoning ski act, which would freeze assets and banned visas from the people from that putin regime. and at the time, john mccain was my biggest supporter on that republican side, and senator ben qatar on the democrat side. but i would say the republicans are more robustly standing up to putin then the democrats were at that point. it was, i really felt, and by the way, there was no pro-putin lobby in washington. i find it very surprising that there are certain individuals in the republican party, and i should point out, even though, many republicans still are on the side of ukraine and against russia, but there are some individuals, particularly the main republican candidate, donald trump, and then his

friend, mike johnson, who is the speaker of the house, don't want to help ukraine and want to help putin. i find that perplexing and inexplicable, because it used to be the party of ronald reagan, tear down the wall. it's remarkable that it's come to this now, where ukraine is potentially losing the war, losing part of the board, because a certain small group of republicans are holding up this military aid package. it makes no sense to me. >> bill, thanks very much for being with us. thanks for the work that you continue to do and as i've said to my other guests, and all the news today, one day, we'll talk about something nice. but not today. bill browder is the head of the global magnitsky justice campaign and the author of the important book, freezing order, a true story of russian money laundering, murder, and surviving flattering putin's wrath. he is also the author of rent notice.

i would recommend you read both of those books. it will give you a phenomenal understanding of why the things that are happening today are happening. coming up on tomorrow's show, i will be joined by the former united states ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch. we're going to discuss the state of the war in the future for ukraine, and what we should expect if donald trump retakes the white house. first, as you just saw, its primary day in south carolina. just a few moments ago, we watch this. nikki haley, arriving at the polling place, to cast her own ballots in the south carolina primary. she's expected to make remarks in a few moments live. we'll go there. you're watching velshi on msnbc. ing velshi on msnbc. from breaking your momentum. you may have already been vaccinated against the flu, but don't forget this season's updated covid-19 shot too. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd rather be. farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal,

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the south carolina republican primary has officially begun. pulls up in a few hours ago. they're going to close at seven pm eastern. the former south carolina governor, and presidential candidate, nikki haley, actually just arrived moments ago to cast her own vote. now, this election is an open primary, which means voters are not required to declare a party affiliation to participate. however, you cannot vote today if you cast a ballot in the states democratic primary two weeks ago. today's racist donald trump still loose, with recent polling showing he's beating the kylian her home state by more than 20 points. joining me now, nbc news correspondent ali vitali from charleston. ali, i don't know if you are close to where nikki haley was, orbits going on there. but give us an update. >> yeah, ali. i am just a few steps outside the polling place where nikki purely just walked in with her family to cast her vote. nothing says election day like doing a live shot with you

around all my 30 closest friends in the media as we wait for haley to come out after she finishes voting and talk to us, answering some news of the day questions and stop cheap among them is going to be the results tonight. the fact that haley and her campaign has been clear about the fact they know the odds, but they also say they know the stakes here. haley has continued to hammer this message, ali, of the idea that she knows trump can't be as competitive as she would be in a general election. of course, the problem remains that the general election argument is great, but you have to get through a primary in order to get to that general. and this primary, the message at, least over iowa and new hampshire and now, likely, south carolina, it's going to be overwhelmingly in trump's favor. nevertheless, haley says she is going to continue on that just through south carolina, but through michigan, which also votes on tuesday. then, of, course a week and a half later in those 20 plus super tuesday states, that's going to be a moment where we see a delicate strategy in play. the problem that exists for

haley, because i'm glad you point out the strategy of coalition building within an electorate that might not just the gop base voters, the haley campaign has been clear they are reaching out to independents, they would like some of those democrats, if they still can, to come and vote in the primary as well. they're looking at other states that allow them to build a similar coalition. i'm thinking of places like michigan, virginia, massachusetts, but the problem in some of those states is the delegate rules as they exist. some of those contests, including here in south carolina, are winner take all states. even if haley is able to close the gap, and they do say that is one of the things we're gonna be looking at tonight, not just if she's going to lose, but by the margin of which she ends up losing here, that's going to be really important. i imagine something haley is going to point to herself, especially if it's closer than the 20 to 30- point gap some polls have been predicting. even, still closing the gap might not be enough to not hurt delegates within the rules as they apply. i will say, i recognize and read the polls, this campaign recognizes and read suppose as

well. they are certainly not shy about knowing the landscape their operating within. but i also think i come back off into something that a haley ally said to, me and i think it's probably the most optimistic view effort for anyone in this world at this point. which is this is why you run elections. yes, if you look at the polls, it's a tough climb, but you run to be able to change peoples minds, and they point to joe biden coming to south carolina, swooping in after multiple contests where he fell far short of expectations in 2020, and being able to surge out of the palm meadows state. i take the point. i think the parallels are really thin in terms of not having a clyburn-esque figure on the republican side, black voters certainly not coalescing around haley in the way they did around biden. but still, the founding notes of optimism, but more importantly, promising to keep fighting regardless of what happens. >> that argument is good. regardless of whether it applies, the argument is you run so that people have a choice. elections are better than coronations, and competitions are better than, you know,

people who get a claim. so, i'll buy that. good to see you, my friend. thanks as always. that was today's installment of the alley the segment on velshi. ali vitali, joining us in south carolina. stay close msnbc throughout the day for a special not recovered to the south carolina primary. density and often capehart kick things off at four pm eastern, then, at 6:30 pm eastern, rachel maddow and team pick up the analysis, along with steve kornacki, breaking down the result of the big board are. special coverage begins today at four pm eastern, only on msnbc. last year while reporting for ukraine on the first in the first give the full fledged russian invasion, i had the privilege of catching up with nastiest box, a former teen refugee from ukraine, who i first met a year earlier in poland after she fled her home with her mother and her twin sister. recently, i was able to catch up with her and learn that might young french still has big plans for her future, her studies, and how best to help our country. that's next, on msnbc. country. that's next, on msnbc. i've been doing flight nursing for 24 years.

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i've made three trips to ukraine since russia's full scale invasion began two years ago. during my first trip in the spring of 22, on my way to ukraine, i made stops in hungary and poland. i'm at dozens of refugees during that time. many of their stories have stayed with me ever since. but none more so than that of the then 15 year olds ukrainian refugee, on the soft ceo shpot, or nastia, as we know her. who i met during my time in poland. nastia had been forced to flee her eastern your cranium hometown of pressured for offense, halfway between dnipro and donetsk. since, then nastia has been able to return to her home country and hometown, hoping for short periods of time. the rest of our time is spent mainly in the united kingdom, where she attended school, because schooling is essentially nonexistent nearly frontlines in ukraine. last february, i had the

privilege of catching up with nastia, spending time with her and her family in her hometown. learning about nastia's plans for her future, and how she wants to help our country. here is part of our time together. >> since we came to this church this morning, i think we heard two sirens, two or three while we were here? >> for. >> and then more alike. >> yeah. >> we've had sirens all day. >> yeah. it's all day. they didn't, your minds, i grew up in one day, one night. like, wake up four a.m. and you just throw up. and you just understand your -- a lot of people now not live, just exist. and people just try to survive. >> are you going to get your childhood back? are you gonna be a kid again? >> i think no. no, i'm grown-up. i didn't have, i didn't have time to be a kid. >> how'd me. people, just looking for someone to hug.

>> [speaking in a global language] >> how'd me. >> yeah! >> peaceful sky. >> [speaking in a global language] >> [speaking in a global language] , peaceful sky. that's what nastia said as she hug my entire team. over the course of the war, we've seen countless examples of how the strength of the termination of the women of ukraine has been crucial to that country's resistance, and that spirit has always been evident in nastia shpot. it is so good to see you, my old friend. >> hello? me as well, it's really, really nice to meet you again. >> we set on that balcony in poland we would keep in touch and we would follow your progress very closely, which we are doing. you are now in england. you are 2000 miles away from your hometown. so, tell me about how you're doing, and how you've been. >> i am actually wonderful.

this year, i'm applying the university, and i'm waiting for answers. and from some of them, i get some results. so, fingers crossed i'm going to pass on my exams. >> you, subsequently, i got to meet your parents. i met your father when he came here to new york. we went to your hometown. you are so attached to your hometown. you want so badly to be back there and be with your family. how has that been in the last year? >> yes, it's not only that he, his brigade stanton avdiivka, which is now in the most dangerous cities in ukraine. and i really, really badly wants to go to ukraine and visits him, because, you don't know. it's just something that you don't know what could happen tomorrow. and one of my dad's friends, you get wounded. so, i really want to go and just

visit my dad and maybe, if i was lucky to have the opportunity to spend even as they with him, i would be the most luckiest person. >> you can do spent update with him. having spent some time with your dad, i know how that is. use one of those people that just makes you feel better to be around him. look, one of the things, when i was your age, i had very difficult time spending time with my studies, but i didn't have any of the problems you've got. you, have since they met, you talk to me about how important your studying is. it is virtually impossible to do in ukraine right now. tell me about what you're doing now? you're just down the road from oxford university. i believe your tree, met lisa we talked, was to go to cornell. you want to be a psychologist. you want to help people who are suffering from ptsd and the other effects of war. tell me about your education and how you're managing that? >> now, i'm doing my level business, because i'm just

trying to improve my business skills, and business gives me the good path to get to university. which if i'm lucky, and also, i'm a little bit to change my life you, and i want to go into international relationship and politics, because now i feel like it's the most, like, good opportunity for me to change and help my country. a little bit to change the system there. and also it could give me opportunity to help people, which is the most important, to help kids. >> you know, the thing that struck me about your conversation in your hometown last year's you said you didn't have time to be a kid. you went from being a kid when the war started to, you know, of a sudden, you had to grow up very quickly. that's the story of a lot of young people in ukraine. they have to exist rather, you said, they have to exist rather than live. living means playing music and spending time with family and

friends. another year into the bore, tell me about this concept of existing forces living. >> the most now common problem is a lot of students right now, they just go like, from example, a lot of kids now move into other countries or in other cities, which is, it's so hurtful a little bit to the experience, because you feel you are not in your own town, you just feel like a refugee, even inside the country, and you just need to start over again. if it's happened, like, inside the country, for example, you came to one city and then you need to move to other, it could be really, really dangerous, because missiles attack. it's actually, you don't have time to live. you just think about how i can help my parents. how we can handle it, what we

need to do. because i would probably say it's the most hurtful experience, just to move to another country, to another city, and started over and over again for a student. for a kid, and also, the war. it's really, really traumatic experience. >> in our first conversation on that balcony in poland, you had the big smile on, and the fewer couldn't see it. i could see were crying. you just come out of ukraine, and you are very sad, but you are trying to put a brave face on, and at the end of the interview, you had one request. it was for a hug. >> we will pray for your father, and i'm sure he's going to be fined. >> thank you for supporting us. thank you. it's very important, not for me, it's important for my family, my friends, and really grateful. grateful for -- all of you who support for ukraine, because if not for those people, i would live in streets or train station. so, thank you. >> you're going by the train station.

stephen going there and helping people, giving them food. that must make you feel a little better, at least. >> it makes me feel better, because i know that i'm not alone. and lost everything. >> you're not alone. you're not alone for being with us. >> thank you. can i hug you? >> you'll get through this. >> yeah. >> hiking is a very important part of your story. you believe that is a very, it's a small thing that can actually help change the world. you are optimistic. when we were there last, year or hugging people. you had a sign, in fact. giving people hugs. are you still optimistic? >> yes. sometimes. sometimes not. because i see all of it that's happens, and i tried to be the most positive and optimistic person. but as well, i feel like some consequences that's happened in ukraine, that's happened with my dad, and i feel that, to cause all my family feel that. and i try to be.

i'm trying to be the most positive person. >> i think you're succeeding. it is good to talk to you again, my friend. hopefully. >> thank you so much. >> it will be in person again. please give my regards from my whole team to your whole family. nastia shpot, joining us again. >> thank you. >> as nastia noted during our discussion, her father, victor, a chaplain in the ukrainian armed forces, was serving on the frontlines in hefty fca, and as we have discussed today, ukraine has retreated from avdiivka, with several hundred ukrainians reportedly taken captive or missing. as we reported that interview with nastia, we reach back out to check in and see if she's been in contact with her father. she responded, quote, on the day when the interview took place, avdiivka was occupied, and their brigade was set to rest and managed to leave the city. now, i have a connection with him. i sincerely hope, migrant gets her wish, and gets to spend that say with her father soon. we'll be right back. father soo. we'll be right back.

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they are doing. their donations are funding the research. the research is allowing for the treatments to happen. and those treatments provide cures. and the cures are allowing patients to get to grow up and live amazing lives all around the world. welcome to this meeting of the velshi banned book club. today, we are honoring the immeasurable james baldwin. the oldest of nine children, baldwin was raised in new york city by his mother and stepfather, who was a baptist preacher from new orleans. while attempting to which clinton high school, baldwin briefly became a preacher at fireside pensacola symbol, but ultimately, heat rejected religion.

after graduating from high school, he moved to new york's greenwich village and split time writing and working odd jobs. this solution and frustrated by the relentless racism and homophobia he experienced as a gay black man, baldwin moved to paris at the age of 24. though he returned home frequently, it was in europe he would publish most of his work. baldwin's plays, essays,, novels and the homes have received critical and cultural acclaim and continue to receive night today. there's so much to say about this remarkable man, and his nation defining canon of writing. but today, we are examining the fire next time. it's this collection of essays that cemented as one of america's greatest thinkers and preeminent writers. the fire next time is comprised of two usa's. my doncic a, letters to my nephew on the 100th anniversary of the emancipation, and down at the cross, letter from a region of my mind.

originally published in 1962 in the progressive, a left leaning american magazine founded in 1909, the first essay is a poignant letter to baldwin's 15- year-old nephew, barely ten pages, ball one succinctly explores what we would now call structural racism, and white privilege. quote, you were born where you were born and face the feature that you faced because you were black, and for no other reason. the limits to your ambition brought us expected to be settled. you were not expected to aspire to excellence. you were expected to make peace with mediocrity. and quote. the second essay, which takes up much of the book, addresses baldwin's fractured relationship with his harlem church and the religion, religions effect on the black community. originally published in the new yorker, down at the cross culminates in a pointed admonition directed that white americans, particularly liberal

white americans. quote, the brutality with which nero's are treated in this country simply cannot be overstated, however unwilling might men maybe to hear it, end quote. baldwin is equal parts writer and philosopher. in the fire next time, he masterfully conveys his frustration with america and his deep longing for a better future, and it's belief that's a better future can be had. quote, but these men are your brothers, your lost younger brothers, and if the word integration means anything, this is what it means. that we shall, with love, that we, with love, shell force are brothers to see themselves as they are, to cease fleeing from reality and begin to change it, for this is your home, my friend. and quote. the fire next time forces white americans to confront themselves and see their own

implicit role in racism in america. it's a directive honest look at this nation in 1962, and still today. quote, therefore, whatever white people do not know about eagerly feels, precisely and an exit burly, what they do not know about themselves. end quote. the mirror baldwin holds up to this country will not show a pretty reflection. that is the power of the fire next time. that is the power of james baldwin. right after the break, i'm gonna be joined by any block, junior, one of the first members of the velshi banned book club, and author of the book on james baldwin, the award winning begin again. james baldwin's america, and it's urgent lessons for our own. r own.

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we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. joining me now is a long- standing member of the velshi banned book club, at the law, junior, he's a professor apparently prominent african american studies at princeton university and msnbc contributor, author of the award-winning book about james baldwin begin again, james baldwin's america and it's urgent lessons for our own. in fact, you are like i with whom i conceptualize the banned book club two years ago. so, thanks for your constant support of this. i want to talk about james baldwin spoke, by talking about your book because in begin again, you mentioned the fire next time. you write quote, when i read the

fire next time, when i read the fire next time, i couldn't reconcile his range with his top of. love it was like dr. king makes henry james meets malcolm x beats freud. baldwin was too personal. >> yeah. he forced me to kind of encounter my own anger. i grew up in mississippi. i grew up with the whole host of assumptions about who i was, what i was capable of, and, then in the midst of that range, the invocation of love. >> right. >> a kind of maturity, a kind of reaching out, of going towards reminded me of my great grandmother. because that hatred would eat you up, and baldwin had to learn that, otherwise he would become his stepfather. >> he had the history, he has the ancestral and historical range that's can be held in black people. then, he had new things too, which he was subject. in his family and being a gay black man. >> oh, absolutely.

>> there was a lot of rage, a new trying to figure out how this becomes productive. some of his messages were to black people, including the letter to his nephew. but a lot of his messages were four white liberals. >> folks who are based are affected, for those who do that the basing our dehumanize, right? so bullet, i've never been the problem, i've never been the and word. the question is, why do you need the n-word in the first place? why do you need the illegal? why do you need the terrorist? why do you need the abomination? why you need the true, right? walton was consistent this had something to do with the gaping hole in the soul of those who require these scapegoats, who require these -- >> thus become, as you fortin, as relevant. in back in again, you talk about lessons for today. the introduction, i talked about the fact that this book was really relevant in 1962, and, yet the messages resonate today. what's different about the message in james baldwin's work in 1962, and the message people

need to hear about racism and prejudice and homophobia today? >> you know, the difference is that we went through the mid 20th century. there's this idea that we've addressed it all. >> because right after 1962, we actually did go through something like a reckoning. >> remember, at the end the fire next time, baldwin says god gave no other sign of a fire next time. harlem explosive next year, 64. remember, 62, when he's writing the essay, so that's the battle of oxford. 63, efforts is mourning. so burning him some 63, he sees those poses. so, what we have that baldwin didn't half, we have him. we have to. me and, then we have this moment, the arrogance that comes with that journey, that somehow, we've resolved. it when in fact, what bolton was asking us to do in 63 was to grow up. and we're still adolescents when it comes to this question of race. we just don't want to believe

that we can imagine ourselves being together differently. that somehow, the idea of whiteness means that you ought to be valued more than others. and we have yet to let that go. it seems to me. >> i want to read a moment from the fire next time that stayed with me. white americans do not believe in death. this is why the darkness of my skin is so intimidates them. but renewal becomes impossible if one supposes things to be constant that are not. safety, for example, or money, or power. one clings to the scenarios white which can only be betrayed, and the entire hope, the entire possibility, of freedom disappears. what is this idea, that he was trying to get across, that white americans don't believe in death? >> both of the civilization, right? we're always future oriented, perspective. this is a nation that was born not with futile titles, not tethered to some long path that describes your future, my

future. no, it's open-ended. so, you know, death is a succession of possibility. america's unbounded possibility. at least, that's the myth of. cao, when you encounter these folk the stark folk, these blues people, somehow, that reality aleutian, against the reality, of actual human beings. so when you're death dodging, find yourself slipping into idols, monies, the material things trying, to avoid, you, know that ultimate factor for that needs to be a human being. they step, and in order to face death, one must face the wife in. or defaced, ethan must face with passion, the conundrum of life so. you have to accept the circumstances. >> so, i viewership might be light weight and liberal, which is to give this on who else meat white liberals,, why would i read the semi? >> well, you know, it sounds

clichi but we have to become better human beings we want a better world. in order to become better human beings, we have to confront the ugliness of the world, which means we have to confront the ugliness in us. the white liberal, always wants to feel good, virtue signal. baldwin says i'm skeptical of people who want to do something for me, as opposed to some people who want to do something with me. racial justice is not a philanthropic x enterprise. it's not a terrible gesture. if we want to be better people, we look summer. >> thank you, erin, for everything. thank you for helping us launched the velshi banned book club. thank you for making us smarter about james baldwin and your book. all right. eddie glaude junior is a professor in the chair of the african american studies have princeton university. and embassy contributor, and he's the author of the important book, began again, james baldwin's america and it's urgent lessons for our own. that does it for me. thank you for watching, catch me back