>> that does it for the weekend. we will see you back here at the table next weekend at 8 am eastern, brighton early. be sure to follow the show on social media at the weekend msnbc, in the meantime don't you go anywhere because velshi starts right now. take it away, of. >> i've got some before the

weekend. and i'm pleased -- >> we can sorted out now. >> because the four of us are on the screen. i'm going to make a request. could you not have eugene daniels right before i come on? ? because i have spent some time how i'm going to look in the day and he comes on and i look now like a chimney sweep. just schedule, it makes some space. that's all. i've got no beef with eugene, i love him, and he brings a lot. in addition to great style, he brings a lot of good information. i loved all of your conversations today, but michael, when you had roy cooper come on and you showed the republican who's running for governor of north carolina and then your reaction when you came out of that about how it's sunday, it's church, day i thought that was impressive. guys, have a great weekend. >> take care, kelly. >> by ali, have a great show. >> velshi starts now.

>> good morning, it is sunday, for the 25th. i'm ali velshi, it was another decisive victory for donald trump last night in the south carolina primary. the twice impeached, four times indicted ex president easily defeated nikki haley. his last remaining opponent for the republican presidential nomination, on her home turf, where she was previously elected as governor twice. trump received nearly 60% of the vote yesterday, while haley was just shy of breaking the 40% -- it's a big margin of victory for the former president, but perhaps not quite the blowout that he was expecting. and as haley emphasized during her speech last night, quote, 40% is not 50%, but i also know 40% is not some tiny group. it's a better than expected showing for haley, though it doesn't change the dynamics of the race. however, it does offer more insights about the electorate ahead of the november elections. nbc's exit polls indicate that haley continues to receive the support of republican primary voters who identify as

independent or moderates, which has been the case in other states as well. it may also be a sign of trump's and ability to expand his base. that may have been on his mind this week, and when he expressed support for in vitro fertilization. ivf treatments, following a divisive reeling from the alabama supreme court that led to some fertility clinics in the state suspending their ivf services. at the core of alabama's ruling is the concept of fetal personhood, which has been a central tenet of the antiabortion movement that tries to legally define that life begins at conception or fertilization. thereby giving frozen embryos legal rights. the opinion also included references to god and other christian beliefs in a country in which the separation of church and state is written into the first amendment of the constitution. and it furthers -- the controversy was further exacerbated when tom parker, the chief justice of the alabama supreme court, has expressed the belief that

american law should be rooted in the bible. the same day that alabama handed down the ruling, for your gave an interview in which he quote, suggested america was founded explicitly as a christian nation and discussed his embrace of the seven mountains mandate. the belief that conservative christians are meant to rule over seven key areas of american life, including media, business, education, and government, and quote. how fun. it's the sort of christian nationalists believe that conservatives have been trying to traffic into the government for generations. a number of republicans have since distanced themselves from the alabama ruling, and trump has even gone as far as to call for alabama lawmakers to protect access to ivf in their state. but don't mistake trump's recent remarks as a sign that he's moderated his stance on reproductive rights. trump's politics have always been transactional, and as evangelicals have become the core of his base, he's leaned hard into posturing as a man of

faith. on thursday, he attended the international christian media convention in nashville and gave a speech that did just that. >> my first term, i fought for christians harder than any president has ever done before. you know that. you know that. and i will fight even harder for christians with four more years in the white house. >> as affectionately publican base that believes that trump would do just that, and it's not just conjecture, either. the heritage foundation has already dropped it what's known as project 2025, it's a radical plan that is intended to offer in the most conservative administration in modern history. to empower the presidents in ways americas founders thought hard to avoid, and infuse christian values into the federal government. trump has close ties to people advising project 2025, including russell vote, he was serves as the director of the office of management and budget

during trump's first term. as political notes, -- including, quote, a restriction- est immigration agenda, saying a person's background doesn't define who can enter the u.s., but rather citing biblical teachings, whether that person accepted israel's god, laws, and understanding of history, and quote. and there was a time not long ago when overturning roe seemed like an impossibility, as justice after justice assured the public that that was settled law. some pregnant women or now dying or have to reach the brink of death before they can receive proper medical care, because of the new restrictions on abortion. now, they're also americans who want to have babies to start or to grow their families, but are now facing new restrictions because of alabama's ruling. alabama is a bellwether for where the food country could be headed. it's a canary in the coal mine, if you will. if we continue to shore up those emerging policies, fringe

beliefs -- it maybe too late. joining me now is doug jones, he's the former democratic senator from alabama, he's the author of the book bending toward justice. also joining, us molly jong- fast, special correspondent for vanity fair, host of the fast politics podcast, and an msnbc political analyst. welcome to both of you, thank you for being here this morning. let me start with you. there's a lot in there, the primary last night is the thing that's freshest on everyone's mind. there was no surprise that donald trump won the south carolina primary, even though it's nikki haley's state. the surprise is that nikki haley continues to have strength among those people who are not trump supporters, and who may want somebody other than trump as president. >> yeah, some really interesting things happened yesterday. i would say one of the top lines in my mind is never trump is still never trump. there are republicans in this country who are never trump, and now, eight years later, they continue to be never trump. and i think those voters are

not going to trump. and maybe they stay home and maybe they vote for biden, but they are not going to trump. i also thought what was really interesting about that election last night was that the polls really showed trump doing about ten points better than he did everywhere. and so for nikki haley, is she going to win this primary? maybe not. but she showing that he is really vulnerable in a way that i think is really kind of surprising. >> senator, good to see you again. talk to me about how you are looking at all of these developments, the primary, donald trump's very unusual behavior, and of course what's going on in your own state of alabama, which has been at the cutting edge of abortion restrictions since the fall of roe. >> ali, first of all, i totally agree with molly. i think trump is continuing to show vulnerabilities in the general election coming up. and that's something to watch for as we go forward. i think what we are seeing is donald trump wanting to be the president of the united states

of alabama. fighting culture wars. this is not just about reproductive rights and abortion. if you look at what our state legislatures doing about books and libraries, trying to ban dei, we're in a tough situation down here. we are fighting hard, but folks need to realize and i have said it yesterday, today, and i've said it before. folks need to watch this because this will spread out to the rest of the united states. that is exactly what the maga group wants to do, and donald trump wants to lead that charge. >> molly, i want to ask you this, because you are the child of one of the early second wave feminists in this country. what's going on in alabama's handmaid's tale stuff. even conservatives are a little puzzled as to what is this ban, the attorney generals not sure what he is going to do about it. donald trump's got convicted views on the whole matter. and that's because people are

finding it hard to accept that what alabama the, the court in alabama has said, is your reproductive rights are not yours to control. and of story. it doesn't matter whether it's about abortion, whether it's about contraception, or whether it's about ivf. >> this is a logical conclusion of overturning roe. my mother, 1973, they overturned roe, she published her book, it was a moment where we thought women of the same rights as men. in fact, they tried to pass the equal rights act, which is the idea that women should have the same rights as men. not insane, never passed, and we never got those rights. and now we see that if you overturn roe, what you do as you open the door for all of this. and that's what we are seeing. and i think what's really interesting but all these ivf -- you have these republicans that are saying i want to protect ivf, and then you look at their voting records, and they have in fact voted for bills that passed that life been gains at conception. so obviously they believe in

fetal personhood, which is an embryonic personhood, really. which is this insane thing. but the thing is, they didn't care enough when they wrote these legislations, to protect women. and that's what we are seeing with these pregnant women who are waiting in a hospital parking lot until they are sick enough to get treated. they never cared enough to write cut outs in this legislation, so they pass this legislation that is now making it ivf is impossible and abortions are impossible and saving the life of the mother is a question. >> senator, how do you square that? because we've gone for a world when roe fell, the argument was nothing really serious is going to happen. we're just going to allow every state to do it it needs to do. what we didn't expect, and what i learned in my early trips to alabama, was that some states like alabama, like texas, and others, we're going to be doing about this. this wasn't really about everybody tweaking it their own way. how do we get to a point where people who don't like abortions don't have to have abortions,

but that we are not criminalizing everyone? because donald trump seems to be floating idea of a 15 or 16- week federal abortion ban. i don't know how that would get through the senate, but how do you fix this for the electorate? what do we tell them? >> i think it's going to be tough, ali, because we've done 50 years of history here. what people forget often is that we had 50 years of the -- that is pandering to folks in the evangelical community. literally pandering about life begins at conception, without regard to any exceptions, without regard to anything and taking away woman's rights. so there was this history, and then all of a sudden it came home to roost. all of a sudden, you have people that have to make these choices and have to look at the real world, not just the political world. so it's going to be a little bit different, i think, to overcome the momentum and the lie about how they have viewed

this for decades now. but the fact of the matter is the more we hear about the draconian laws, the problems that women had, the life and death situations, and now, let's face it. we've got republicans falling over themselves, to try to fix a problem that is going to affect people that they know. people that have means to go through ivf. it's not the marginalized communities, it's not the women who have problems. they are going to jump over every obstacle they can to help those people. that's what they do. >> right, that's an important point. because one of the things, molly, in alabama, is that they're a lot of people without means, who are deeply affected by the elimination of the access to abortion, and in many cases, contraception. because if you don't have a private doctor in alabama, there's a bit of a list to get on with one.

but this is an important point that senator makes. that now everyone saying, hold, on this feels a little closer to home. >> it's a very privileged group that can afford ivf. that's the end of the story. i would say i think trump's 15- week ban thesis is he's trying to cover. he thinks that has pulled much better, he's trying to be like, look, i'm a moderate. one of the things trump had working for him in 2016 was he was famous, but he had no voting record. so he really could be a rorschach. he could say he was from new york, he was a democrat, now he has moved. he has put those three supreme court justices on the court, the ones that overturned roe. so now that he saying that he wants a federal ban, i think he wants people to associate him with 15 weeks. >> all right, lots more to come on this one, and lots more to talk about. thank you. doug jones, former senator from alabama, great friend of our show, and molly jong-fast, special correspondent for vanity fair, host of fast

politics podcast, and recently an msnbc contributor. thanks to both of you. coming, up congresswoman jasmine crockett of texas joins me at the top of the hour. we continue to break down the results of the south carolina republican primary, and the ramifications for the november election and the future of american democracy. plus, i'll talk to former u.s. ambassador to ukraine -- about the future of the war in ukraine, how american politics and the potential for trump's return to the white house could affect ukraine's fight for democracy as we enter the third year of fighting. plus, i'll talk about all of that and more with democratic senator chris van hollen, who's standing by. he joins me after a quick break.

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and duckduckgo lets you browse like chrome, but it blocks cooi and creepy ads that follow youa from google and other companie. and there's no catch. it's fre. we make money from ads, but they don't follow you aroud join the millions of people taking back their privacy by downloading duckduckgo on all your devices today. >> welcome back. join me now is a democratic senator chris van hollen of maryland. he's a member of the senate foreign relations committee. senator, i've got a lot of foreign relations matters to discuss with you, but one of the things about the political

discussion i was just having with your former colleague, doug jones, what the republican party, is that it has found its way into your world on capitol hill, in terms of the aid to ukraine and the connection to border security in which a deal was finally agreed upon that republicans themselves tanked, because donald trump didn't like the deal and he didn't like the aid to ukraine. how do you see this playing out? it does seem like donald trump is the speaker of the house and nothing is getting done that donald trump doesn't want getting done. >> elie, that's exactly right. you have the speaker of the house taking orders from donald trump. you have other house republicans falling in line, and we saw this in two instances. one in the senate, we reached a bipartisan agreement on border security, and all of a sudden donald trump recognized that if we actually did something on border security, it would take away at the political issue that he wants to run on in

november. so the word went out to oppose it and everybody opposed it, speaker johnson opposed it before even reading it. and now we have the ukraine issue. you've seen that you've got ukrainian soldiers on the front lines, literally checking their phones for updates on whether or not the house of representatives is going to act, take the lead in the senate, a big healthy bipartisan majority. so this is a historical moment, and it's essential that republicans in the house, for the good of the country, listen to the pleas of people who are asking for help to protect their freedom and democracy, rather than donald trump, who's working to undermine democracy here at home interrupt the world. >> let's talk about some things going on around the world. on friday, you and several of your democratic colleagues issued a letter to president biden urging him to suspend any additional arms transfers to the netanyahu government and israel until specific

commitments are secured from the netanyahu administration, including no major military operation in rafah, implementing measures for the immediate delivery of humanitarian relief, prioritizing the return of hostages, and the application of the national security memorandum. explain this letter and how this is different from what you've been working on in the last couple of months. >> that's right. look, the situation in gaza is going from terrible to worse. we are closing in on 30,000 people killed, two thirds of them women and children. we have a desperate humanitarian situation where people are literally serving. and you have prime minister netanyahu, who continues to either ignore or openly rebuff requests from the president of the united states, including requests warning about going into rafah. including requests to open up more avenues for humanitarian assistance. so what senator schatz and

others have sent to the president is that if you're going to consider more military assistance to israel, more offensive military assistance to the netanyahu government, we want you to seek and let you know you perceive assurances. no major military operation in rafah, and the other assurances that you just spelled out here. because it cannot be an open- ended blind check. we were clear that we supported replenishment of the iron dome and defensive systems, but so long as prime minister netanyahu continues to openly ignore the requests of the president of the united states, we don't think it's appropriate to just hand over a blank check. >> you have said your intention to vote in favor of 14 billion dollars to israel, is that the replenishment that you're talking about, the stuff that we've already agreed we are going to send over? how does that distinguish, how do you distinguish between that and what you're saying you don't want to go over?

>> ali, there are a couple of issues. that bill was the security assistance bill that included 60 billion dollars of weapons and support for ukraine. it also included one point $4 million and humanitarian assistance to gaza, the west bank, and other places around the world. so what i have said with respect to the 14 billion dollars for israel's that president biden needs to make sure that any money from that that are spent our dining consistent with u.s. values and with u.s. laws. including a law on the books that said the president cannot provide security assistance to any country that does not cooperate or does not facilitate arbitrarily denying the delivery of humanitarian assistance. so this letter was triggered by a report that we saw, that president biden intends to ask

congress for more offensive lethal military systems to the netanyahu government for use in gaza. and our letter to the president says, wait a minute. don't say that down to the united states congress. don't send that request to us, unless we've gotten these assurances and provided the other information we requested in a letter. >> senator, it's always good to have you on the show. we appreciate it. senator chris van hollen's -- coming, up it's the party of trump, swing state addition. two days out from our next primary, our next stop is michigan where we find chaos, lawsuits, and inviting, and that's just among the trump loyalists. it's a battle of bad versus worse for the future of democracy, when we come back.

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let me share mine. i'm the only candidate with a record of taking on maga republicans, and winning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values. what do i see in peter dixon? i see my husband... the father of our girls. i see a public servant. a man who served under secretary clinton in the state department... where he took on the epidemic of violence against women in the congo. i see a fighter, a tenacious problem-solver... who will go to congress and protect abortion rights and our democracy. because he sees a better future for all of us. i'm peter dixon and i

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was such a shock to america's conscience, it's easy to forget that the capitol riot was just one piece of a widespread multi front, and in some cases, i carefully organized attempt to overturn the results of the 2020 election. while the sudden and violent invasion of the capital was meant to prevent the official counting in certifying of boats, another effort took place more quietly across several key swing states. the so-called fake electors scheme was part of the same cloth, and it had the same and goal, to prevent the official tally of the votes that show donald trump had lost the election. it was orchestrated with the help of dozens of trump allies, including state republican party officials in seven states, where republicans were so enthralled to donald trump that many were willing to sign their names to fraudulent documents and present themselves falsely and illegally as electors when it was time for the votes to be certified. >> you said we can't enter.

-- speaker of the house, speaker of the senate -- or if you take part in the electoral process. >> they're also -- >> all 16 electors have been -- >> that unbelievable scene unfolded when trump's fake electors try to get into the michigan state capital to subvert the certification of that states electoral votes, which were won by joe biden in 2020. and that bit of tape, that brazen and calculated disregard for the democratic process of the rules and norms and laws that keep our country free, that is why we need to keep our

eyes on what's happening with donald trump's republican party, in the states. we know that these seven swing states were a key part of donald trump's attempt to overturn the last election. and as the former ohio democratic party chair, david pepper, famously articulated in his book, states have become laboratories of autocracy, where if enough power masses in the wrong hands, it could pose a serious threat to democracy. so with that in mind, we're going to touch down in each of those seven crucial swing states. targeted by donald trump in 2020, as part of his attempt to overturn the election. see, what kind of laboratories are being run now ahead of another high stakes election for democracy itself, which is on the line. we begin today with michigan, where voters will head to the polls on tuesday for the democratic and republican primaries. in michigan, 16 individuals were criminally charged for submitting false certificates

in december of 2020 that claimed they were legitimate electors for donald trump, despite the fact that joe biden won that state and all of its electoral votes. there were no republican electors in 2020. among the 16 individuals was the former co-chair of the republican gop, and michigan's republican national committee woman. fast forward to the 2022 midterms, when promoting trump's big lie became the main criteria for running for office as a republican in michigan. the known conspiracy theorist and trump worship or, christina karami, ran for michigan secretary of state on a platform of election denial. she went on to lose that election, but refused to concede, to this day she refuses to concede. and then she was chosen to chair the michigan republican party. according to the new york times, karami of the state party into more than $600,000 of debt, try to sell the parties headquarters, expelled party officials with whom she

disagreed, and caused donors to flee. the state party voted last month to replace her with this guy, former congressman pete extra, which you are might remember is the former chair of the house intelligence committee who famously into thousand nine, again, a has the sitting chair of the house intelligence committee, live tweeted what was supposed to be a secret trip to iraq. he also served as donald trump's ambassador to the netherlands, during which time the most notable thing he did was to get called out on dutch tv for lying about islamic extremism in the netherlands, and then calling his own words fake news. when that's the new head of the michigan gop, but the old head of the party, christina karami, the one who never conceded her loss in the secretary of state race in 2022, you will come as no surprise that she's not conceding defeat here. she's refused to leave her post as chair of the michigan republican party. and as you might imagine, this complicates matters for

republican voters and michigan, with the states primary coming up on tuesday. both self proclaimed chairs of the party are planning to host dueling conventions later in the week on different sides of the state, unless a judge forces currently back off. right now, this is a giant mess for the gop. but remember that all sides of this giant masts, though it's currently i chaotic republican war, are trump loyalists. both major players here have also proven themselves to be brazenly willing to deny the truth, and that, combined with everything we know about the role that michigan republicans plate in donald trump's shenanigans in 2020, should be cause for concern for every american who wants to make it out of 2024 with democracy intact. >> so, what did you get?

>> and maybe know somebody who doesn't like to sign up for however get this program, you can find all your favorite segments, stories, and interviews on youtube. had to msnbc.com slash rally. msnbc.com slash l.a., you can see conversations with lawmakers, meetings of the velshi banned book club, and our important economic updates all in one place. please check it out. coming up next, finding common ground. two men who ideologically disagree on almost everything are putting country over party, to save american democracy for another potential trump presidency. the former republican congressman -- fred guttenberg joins me next. you're watching velshi.

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>> former congressman joe walsh, a republican from illinois, was swept into congress in 2010 on 80 party wave. the national gop paid him no mind, he gave his campaign no money. but he would shock them by winning his midterm race for what was then the states eighth congressional district. he entered the house in 2011 as one of 87 republican freshman. once in congress, walls would helped pioneer the playbook that today's gop still follows, consisted cable news appearances, fiery opposition to any gun control legislation, no compromise positions on the debt ceiling, and saying

inflammatory things about the democratic president, among others. however, unlike some of his colleagues, walls was always open to discussions. he hosted more town halls than any of his congressional colleagues. and after he lost his seat in 2012 following a redistricting effort, he became a conservative talk radio host. he voted for donald trump in 2016, and then in the lead up to that election he tweeted, if trump loses, i'm grabbing my musket. that, like with many other longtime republicans, the trump administration wore him down. the rampant lying, the impulsive foreign policy and cozying up to autocratic leaders. walsh says his real breaking point was the 2018 u.s. russia summit, where trump held a news conference alongside vladimir putin amid allegations that russia had interfered in the 2016 election. but as walls voiced his concerns on his radio show, he learned that he was no longer welcome to criticize the leader of his party. as troubled at the gop in his

image, walsh launched a 2020 primary challenge against him. he was making about that many republicans were secretly tired of trump. like he was. walls lost that bet. he dropped out in february 2020 without shaking gop's faith in the incumbent president. he asked them whether the wall had been built, or why trump had ballooned the national deficit? and they booed him. when he dropped out, he told the new york times, quote, my republican party isn't a party. it's a calls. around the same time walsh was distancing himself from the trump administration, fred guttenberg, a father in florida, international politics reluctantly and all at once. his daughter, jamie, was killed, along with 16 others in the deadly 2018 shooting at marjory stoneman douglas high school in parkland, florida. the parkland shooting shook the country, and set off a wave of gun safety activism. surviving students organize the

march for our lives, a massive gun safety protest that more than 200,000 people attended in washington, d.c., alone. simultaneous protests across the country and the world drew over 1 million people. guttenberg immediately became -- the forefront of the gun control movement, speaking at a senate hearing on capitol hill and also calling out republican senator marco rubio to his hate face in a town hall. and like joe walsh, appearing on tv shows to make his case. fred guttenberg also founded orange ribbons for gun safety, a nonprofit focused on firearm safety policies like background checks for ammunition, safe storage requirements, and more. had walls still been in congress, joe and fraud likely would've clashed. but instead, these two men, you disagree on nearly every single issue, including, perhaps the most important issue to mr. greenberg, gun control, have come together. and now they're going from city to city on their two dads

defending democracy tour, talking to crowds. with a second trump term possibly on the horizon, our differences on policy are all event. if democracy dies, nothing else matters. after the break, i'm joined by joe walsh, and fred guttenberg fern important conversation.

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>> joining me now, former congressman joe walsh and fred guttenberg. jones the host of the podcast white flag with joe walsh, and the author of the book f silence, calling trump out for cultish moronic authoritarian conman that he is. fred is the founder of the organization orange ribbons for gun safety and coauthor of american carnage, shattering the myths that fuel gun violence. today they are two dads, defending democracy. fred, good to see you. thank you for being back with us, it's been a long time since you and i have spoken and i remember joe telling me when he started his white flag podcast that he wanted to talk to people with whom he disagreed on fundamental policy issues, and he was very proud that you were one of the earliest people, if not the earliest, fred, that he talked. you tell me what's in this for you. >> listen, thank you for having us. here's what's in it. the guy you introduced in the opening on joe, was the guy wouldn't. like a guy you don't want to

talk to. and then joe reached out, almost three years ago, and to say he disagreed with me on everything, but he respected what i was trying to do. and joe and i actually started to talk, and we discovered, we didn't disagree on everything. joe, i don't hate the second amendment. he learned i hate gun violence, i learned he wants to expand background checks, i learned he supports red flag laws, and we discovered simply by talking and trusting each other enough in that conversation that we could actually go forward and have real change. listen, i raised my kids with a simple premise in life. it's always easy to talk to those you agree with, but it's always a necessary and important to talk to those who you don't. and when i look forward to the next election, we americans

love democracy, we have to start talking to one another, we better start trusting one another, and we better vote. because it is on the line. >> what you just described is something that we can apply to so many of the issues on which we disagree in america, if we fundamentally agree that our democracy needs to be preserved. joe, let's talk about this. are you and fred -- there is value in just being pluralist. in just listening to each other, in just agreeing that we all share this country. there's greater value, if you can take the issue at hand, in this case, guns, and figure out ways in which multiple parties needs can be met. and there's yet further value if fred guttenberg and joe walsh, who come from politically different places, can come together in defense of democracy. those are all different asks. what's the goal here with two dads defending democracy? is it about better gun safety, or is it about preserving democracy, or both? >> it's about, ali, eventually getting to better gun safety,

but it's about that can't happen unless there are millions of breads and joes who do what they did. look, ali, i love your introduction of me, and it was apt. i was a divisive political asked hole. for years. fred and i know who we want to win this november, but ali, the whole focus of the two dads tour is this. no matter who wins in november, this country is going to be exhausted and 100 times more divided. because most of the country, most of this country we all love, is where fred and i were 3 to 4 years ago. wanting to destroy each other. hitting each other. going after each other on social media and tv. we are at a point, ali, where if we continue down this road, where the people we disagree with, we consider to be our mortal enemy, who we want to

destroy, this democracy cannot stand. so fred and i want to show people it's possible. >> yeah, you're modeling what the discourse can look, like fred. >> yeah, listen. two nights ago, we saw a narcissistic, depraved human being who doesn't care about democracy, stand in front of a audience in south carolina and literally mock them. he mocked them. and he did so, not because he thought it was going to get him votes from that audience, he did so because he knows it will turn out his maga base. they are going to vote. there is no question about it. whatever he does, whatever he says, is all about them turning out and voting. what joe and i hope to do is show america, the rest of america, the majority of america, that you should listen to this. that you should understand this is the best of america, this is

how america works, and you better turn out and vote. because that group will. and so we must. >> so this is interesting. go ahead, joe. >> ali, i was just going to say, look, you rightly said that fred and i are putting our policy differences aside to support biden. because we agree on this. trump is an existential threat to our democracy. and maga, the place i come from, i'm a reformed maga gang banger, maga is further down this road of wanting to destroy their political enemies. but i think every american, near every american is on this road. and i think every american needs to understand, we have to learn how to respectfully disagree in this country. >> fred, one of the things you to have in common, i've spoken to both of you for many years. you've always both been willing to come on, either with me or

with people with whom you disagree. so you are fundamentally pluralist, fred. and again, fred, you got very very good reason to really dislike people who hold views that, in your mind, we're part and parcel of what killed your daughter. and yet you are able to talk to people. are people always able to listen? >> you know, it's what gives me hope. when i travel the country, and i talk to people, it doesn't matter if it's a red state, a blue city, a red state, or a blue city. if i talk to real people and real situations, yes. when you throw the filter of social media and keyboard warriors and this ways to cloud discussion, it seems like it's harder than it should be. but when i go out and i talk to real people, they do listen.

they do engage. and even if they think they disagree with me, the willingness to be able to engage and have a conversation usually brings us to a place where we find we agree on more than we thought. i want the next five months to be about discussion. conversation. that's how democracy works. it's not -- listen. the other guy, he wants to be about hate and anger. not us. and ali, i just want to say two quick things. i want to think you, because you went i back in the day disagreed like cats and dogs on issues, and you, of everybody i know one tv, you have always valued this notion of hearing all sides. you know me on guns, i'm a charlton heston former cold dead hands kind of guy. it wasn't until i sat down privately with fred and

listened to what he went through when his daughter was murdered, and listen to what he believed, that i -- got my eyes were opened. i think that's so hopeful. >> and yet, both of you, in the best way possible, a remarkably passionate about what you have believed, and much of that comes across in social media. brett, how do you deal with it? because all three of us have been active on social media for a long time. i'm just about done with it, because i feel like i don't convince anybody of anything and nobody convinces me if anything anymore. so how do you remain the passionate person that you are, fred, and you express the views that you express and your strongly held belief, while understanding that sometimes you are spinning in the wind? >> my wife always says to me, you need to look at the comments. i'm, like no. i don't, actually. i use it for what i want to say. i use it to deliver a message that i want to deliver. if i become aware of a comment

that i think is worth commenting on or retweeting, i will. but listen, social media has become toxic. because everybody is far too engaged in it in a back and forth. listen, i get caught up in that. i get it. and i throw lot of elbows on social media. i get it. i am a passionate person. but at the end of the day, my passion is driven by the fact that i want to stop the next -- gun violence archive. then i want to save a life, that i want civility, decency, and democracy to win. and as long as my passion is driven by pure positive causes like that, i'm okay with it.