why would you speculate when she was asking you a direct question about when the relationship started? >> i have no answer for that. >> except for the thakt that you do know when it started and you don't want to testify to that in court. that is the best explanation. >> robert james, is the money grouping of back and forth from what we've been witnessing over the last almost two hours in that courtroom? >> well it is the most relevant question. i don't know there is a money pull thing. but you need affirmative evidence that there is financial benefit and financial gain and that fani willis and nathan wade lied and we don't have that. >> we don't have that yet. i want to thank you all for joining me. what we do have right now is "deadline: white house." it will be starting right now. hi, everyone.

4:00 in new york. we've keeping an eye on the case against donald trump. and his allies. it is currently in a break. so the lead prosecutor nathan wade is on the stand testifying about questions raised by trump and his cove defendants about about the personal relationship between wade and fani willis. now, when the relationship started, it is a question that has zero, zilch, nothing to do with any of the facts of the case against donald j. trump. we'll explain why the hearing is even happening. but we start with special counsel jack smith taking a sledgehammer to one of the most brazen arguments being raised by the ex-president in any of his reveils. prosecutors pick apart the argument that trump was somehow unfairly charged in the classified documents case. they say that although there have been many government officials who have possessed

classified documents after the end of their term in office, often inadvertently, sometimes negligently and very occasionally willfully, there has never been a case in american history in which a former official has engaged in conduct remotely similar to trump. he intentionally took the most sensitive documents. documents so sensitive that they were presented to the president and he stored them in an unsecure locations in his social club. but trump did not stop there. the special counsel knows that trump delayed and obfuscated and committing crimes to stop the government from getting back its documents. trump tried to get his attorney to lie to the justice department and then he got his valet walt ngata to move the boxes so his attorney wouldn't find them and then when the fbi asked for surveillance footage that would show the boxes being moved,

trump and now his other co-defendant, carl loss, tried to delete the video and that is why this case is nothing like president joe biden who was not charged for his handling of classified domes. doj saying trump unlike biden is aenl willed to have engaged in expensive and repeated efforts to object just and thwart the return of documents bearing class fick akss markings an the evidence concerning the two men's intent whether they knowingly possessed and willfully retained such documents is starkly different. the special counsel said that president biden secretly directed the indictment of donald trump that the special counsel is a puppet is nothing more than put his carped conspiracies to pay for a quote resources on which they lie even if taken at face value uncut

rather than support this conspiracy theory as they emphasize that the prosecutorial decisions made by the department of justice generally, and the special counsel specific, had them made on the base of the facts and law not political consideration. the defendants offer no evidence to the contrary because there is no such evidence. special counsel jack smith taking it upon himself to separate facts from fiction. and in the classified documents case. it is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. for "the washington post," carol lentic is with us. and clerk to judge sonia sotomayor is here and andrew weissmann is back with us. they are the co-authors of a new book, the trump indictments. it is big. it is long. it is heavy. it is a stark charging documents with commentary. carol, let me start with you. it is so nice to see you, my

friend. i want to dive into the substance of what is in here. because it is juicy. but i want so start with the what of it. what of it tells many he that jack smith and his team are so acutely aware of the environment in which they are trying to hold trump accountable for his crimes. >> it is so nice to see you. i can't believe how good and rested you look. >> that is the magic of the makeup room. >> we'll go right to the substance. of course you ask the right question. think about, and i know you have, nicolle, how differently jack smith has stared down and this is no offense to who i'm about to reference, but how directly he has spoken to the public. not in a namby-pamby way but spoken to the court and the public about the falsity, the profanity, the brazen fallacies

embedded in what donald trump is trying to say about the weaponization of the department of justice against him. and contrast that with how robert mueller addressed this issue. jack smith is taking this on the horns and deciding that it is appropriate for him to speak in court filings, but also it is inappropriate for him to explain that this is a bunch of malarkey. i also found one of the most dramatic sort of passages here is when smith said, there is no comparable person who engaged in quote/unquote this complete suite of willful and deceitful actions to withhold classified information. the defendants cannot find someone comparable who has not been prosecuted. they can't do it because there is flo such person that existed. i'm paraphrasing at the end.

remember the context of jack smith's probe. it of course begins in november of 2022 when he's named special counsel. but he inherited the work of a team that for months has given former president trump the most amazing past. please just give us the documents back. we see that you have some of the most sensitive documents that we've ever, ever, ever printed. especially access programs that were so serious people were not -- people who are national security prosecutors and agents and investigators were not read into the program and not able to read the documents that we found. that is how serious this material was. but please just give everything back. and they wait and they beg and they plead, and then finally after a subpoena, and all tiny pittance of records are returned. they learn actually through the surveillance tape that a bunch of boxes have been moved and all

of the things that you perfectly described before, all of the efforts at obstruction directed by donald trump himself to withhold these documents was at play. >> carol, it is so interesting. you pulled that out. because i remember the night of the raid, the night of the court approved search. talking to former senior doj and fbi officials and saying, what -- how do you think we got here and this person said to me, it had to be more than knowledge of possession. they had to have gotten pissed that they didn't give them back. i wonder, everyone assembled here an the volume one and two of the mueller report and knowing the depravity in that probe, it seems that the obstructive acts in this one may be what sealed his fate. >> so, i'm really keen to hear

what melissa and andrew have to say about this, too. but i know from talking to sources who were involved in this at the time, that there were two stunner moments. the first stunner moment obviously is that special access program material that he's returned and it is willy-nilly, not in folders, not protected, tossed in with articles and nondescript memos. this is not how we do things in the united states. and there is a recovery moment of, oh, my gosh, could intel sources abroad be compromised. could our intelligence sharing programs be compromised or jeopardized if anyone who wondered through mar-a-lago on the way to get a martini may have seen some of this material. there is that fear of grave damage to national security upon learning that in february.

the next killer moment, of course, are the tapes. and i don't want to go into too much detail about this but i will say that up to the attorney general level, there was sort of a jaw-dropper of, oh, that is what is happening. now we have no confidence that the materials that the fbi agents and the national security division prosecutors visited in june, at mar-a-lago, we have no evidence that that is the totality of the records in this storage closet under the beautiful foyer and shrimp serving area of the mar-a-lago club. those are the two kind of pivotal moments of we've got to get ahold on national security and a potential grave damage and now we have evidence that it appears that someone and most likely the former president is trying to keep us from getting everything. >> i mean, i'm so glad that

carol brought it back to the national security implications of this. because i think we get lost in ilene cannon, as carrie lake iish. and one of the advantages is you think this is mar-a-lago and you think sue gordon or people died to get a scrap of evidence or a scrap of evidence from another country's intelligence professional to share with our government, with the trust that it wouldn't be tossed into the box. and it was with his underwear, so said trump. the disdain for the documents and everyone and everything and every life risked to gather them is always stunning to me when we come back to this one. >> when you think about what the election was about in terms of empathy being displayed by then candidate biden and the lack of empathy with respect to trump,

it wasn't just sort of abstract principles that were being talked about or even with respect to just how they deal with people. that lack of understanding what your obligation is aside from yourself is what leads somebody to not take classified information seriously. i'm not talking about making a mistake. that could be said by mike pence, joe biden. >> and that is what jack smith talks about. this is not inadvertent or willful or malicious. >> because it was over and over again. there is no question that was intentional for months and months and on top of that obstruction. and so that lack of empathy is something that leads to this danger to national security and i think that in terms of the reason for why you saw this

extraordinary step is precisely because anybody in the white house or the executive branch would be thinking, our obligation to the public is to recover this. and it doesn't matter if we're going to get criticized for it. we have an obligation to the safety of the country. just a couple of things i wanted to point out that i thought was interesting with respect to trump's filing. is one, just the enormous way it is going to backfire. this is going to be denied and it is going to be denied in a judicial decision, if not by judge cannon, she will get reversed. there is no way that this is going to be viewed as selective prosecution. he will say, ignore those courts and pretty hard to say with the 11th circuit. those are his people. exactly. and so there will be a decision that said this is not flex prosecution, that this case is

different. there is no one else. so it wouldn't be just jack smith saying it. it will be the court saying it. and the other is just a step back. we've talked about the justice department and things that could be faulted. it is worth noting that this is a situation where bob herr and jack smith agree. rob herr is a special counsel who appointed to investigate the president of the united states. that would never happen under a trump 2.0. there is a special counsel now who is investigating and prosecuting hunter biden, his son. none of that would happen with a presidency that didn't believe in the rule of law. and here where you have a special counsel, who is heading that position, he himself is saying these are two different types of cases. so you really don't have -- it is going to be hard to sort of smear jack smith when you have

rob herr saying the same thing, . >> i won't play it again. but when you look at the irrefutable reality as articulated by bill barr, that this case is open and shut, that trump is in the deepest of all deep legal doo doo, so said bill barr and every other republican who hasn't, you know, carry around their maga 2.0 membership cards. what do you make of every legal maneuver coming from the trump side? >> so, we agree with bill barr. i don't get to say that very often. the trump indictments, we talk about this. this is not a strict liability case but it is close as one could get, these were in his possession and that is unlawful and you have these other process claims like the failure to turn them over, the effort to sequester them to keep those from finding them and all of those are crimes in and of

itself but there is the fact of the retention that is unlawful. it is a open and shut case. it is not surprising that this is the case where now we're seeing so much action to continue to delay. it was already going to be a complicated case because of the nature of the information that would be asserted into evidence, a lot of it is classified and that wooz going to take some time. we have a judge who is in experienced in terms of his bandwidth with criminal investigations and criminal trials. that is going to slow this down. now we're seeing truly outlandish arguments that are also i think aimed at not the art of the deal, but the art of delay. keeping this as far from the jury as possible and hopefully delaying it until after the election. in the hopes that donald trump is the victor and this will all go away. >> how successful do you think those will be? >> well as suggested, the arguments themselves are not substantively correct. they're specious and in a way that he would have a immunity as a former president would be

laughable and laughed out of court. but that is not the point. it is not the substantive correctness of the arguments. it is the tact that you're running out of the clock and that is what is fwog on here. >> and carol, i think it is so lovely to see your face and have this conversation. thank you so much for starting us off today. there is a lot happening this afternoon. including in michigan. republicans and democrats are voting today and in that state's primary as we speak. big coverage coming up later tonight on msnbc and with the votes being cast in michigan, we'll speak with jocelyn benson later in the broadcast, protecting democracy has been her singular mission. she was targeted for it for standing in the face of the big lie back in 2020 and now a key figure in protecting the election. and up next for us, in the attempt to discredit the criminal case against the ex president and other side show today facing district attorney fani willis over her personal

relationship with one of the cases' special prosecutors. how the misconduct hearing will change anything, the 13 criminal charges against donald trump for attempting to over turn his 2020 defeat in georgia. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. taste so deliciously fresh. with better nutrition, too. we love our eggs any style. as long as they're the best. eggland's best. ♪ i am, i cried ♪ as long as [ laughing ]e best. ♪ i am, said i ♪ ♪ and i am lost and i can't ♪ punch buggy red. ♪ even say why ♪ ♪ i am, i said ♪ ♪ ♪

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when did you first get knowledge of their relationship? >> i've said over again that i was not -- i didn't have any personal information where i could personally say when it started. i've said that time and time again. so i don't -- i don't know when

the relationship started. >> so that was the so-called key witness for the defense in the case to prove misconduct between fulton county d.a. fani willis and naman wade saying he doesn't know when the relationship between the two started. it was the remaining question in this effort to disqualify fani willis after basically there was no evident shown that she hired wade for her own financial benefit. they both testified under only that their relationship did not start until after wade was hired by the d.a. office. my colleague katie phang has been covering this for us. and melissa and andrew are still with us. what happened today and what does it mean? >> so terrance bradley retook the witness stand after he had a 90 minute conversation behind closed doors yesterday with judge scott mcafee in fulton county. during the 90 minutes, what we

learned today, the judge explored a very specific carve out when it came to other wised privilege communication between terrance bradley and his former client nathan wade. trarns bradley was the divorce attorney for nathan wade. but after two hours of persistent questioning is the following: terrance bradley has zero, and i want to emphasize zero personal knowledge as to when any personal relationship between nathan wade and fannie will began. why is that important? well, this is a continuation of an evidentiary hearing and i can say this to you, nicolle, there is a word in yidic for terrance bradley and that is yenta. he's a gossip and a busy body and he's passed along idle gossip about a relationship between nathan wade and fani willis. that is all. but gossip and innuendo do not

make evidence despite what the defense wants to have in this case. we've gone back to square one, which is at the close almost two week ago, judge had only heard from one person who disputed the time line offered up by fani willis and nathan wade and that one person is a former friend of fani willis and a former employee who i have and others have kind of construed as being a disgruntled former employee. but this is just a high light of how far afield we've gone from the purpose of this hearing. we've moved on from there is no evidence of personal financial benefit to fani willis so when did this relationship began because there suddenly became a focus on whether perjury had been committed. and when you have the judge, you have taken the same oath to tell the truth and nothing but truth but right now there is no evidence that terrance bradley has offered up as to the date when that relationship began.

so did terrance bradley lie? he said he doesn't have any information and he's also a member of the georgia bar like fani willis and naman wade. >> what is really going on here? >> just big picture. to catch you up. there is an indictment that is incredibly long and incredibly detailed and everything that is going on in this -- >> and a whole bunch of people have flipped. >> a bunch of people have needed guilty and awaiting trial, a date that has not been set for charges that are overlapping and similar to the one in the d.c. federal case. that is what the case is about. that is what the country should care about. and whether government, whether it is the state or the feds could prove their case. this is a side show. the main culprit for this side show is the judge. not that he's partisan, just really new. the issue of when did an affair

begin, whether you went dutch or not, which is what he said, it is about paltry sums and the whole -- >> this is what it is about? >> exactly. this is the theory. did you hire someone knowing that they would have a contract, you would go out with them, and they would pay for some of the meals or trips and you would benefit from that. and that is a kind of claim that is not a claim that even if true, is so insignificant and it would be something for maybe an ethics office to say, slap you on the hand and say, you know what, make sure you keep better records and you split costs. it is not a disqualification issue. so i really don't blame the defense. the defense is supposed to raise these kinds of issues. and just to be fair, the hearing then became a bit of a hot mess. that is the polite term. >> all of the legal terms. i appreciate you. >> and so it really has become

about whether there is a cover-up. and to be fair to the defense -- >> covering up the conspiracy that she planned to have an affair with the second person, she planned to hire to help with the case and then he would buy her half of a meal? >> well, she and he, have said, no, when wade was hired, there was no relationship going on. that is a contested issue. second, they have said they roughly split the cost. that is a contested issue because there aren't a lot of hard records for that. hence all of the information about cash and how that worked. to be fair to the defense today, with respect to mr. bradley. there were communications between mr. bradley and the defense where he sent text -- god knows why, but to the defense counsel saying that i know they were having an affair before wade was hired. well that is directly contrary

to what mrs. willis and mr. wade testified to. so he said that. and he said, i absolutely know that that is true. so they have that as a message. so it is fair for them to call him, but saying that he testified and said, i was purely speculating. now, the judge is going to have to make a decision about whether that is credible or not. but you realize that this is sort of gone down this rabbit hole from an incredibly historic important indictment and even if this all ends up going well for the georgia prosecutor, there is this taint that i think was needlessly inflicted by a judge who might be very well intentioned, but i think is really inexperienced in terms of having this kind of hearing. >> i think there is also some other context that is worth noting here. even before judge allowed for the evidentiary hearing there

was administrative processes to limit fani willis's prosecutorial authority and to get her disqualified for being partisan or slanted against donald trump and some of the other defendants in this is can a. all of those failed and then we have michael roman. one of the 19 defendants raising the claim that there was an untoward relationship, between the prosecutor and one of her deputies and she's essentially enriching herself. this is very different from most of the ethical issues that you see with prosecutors like typically where the concern is about a relationship. the prosecutor having a relationship with a judge or a witness or the defendant or someone on the defense team. not someone on her own team. but this is intended to disqualify fani willis and this will go to a counsel in georgia who have have to pick another prosecutor. fani willis is one of the few lawyers in georgia who is qualified to prosecute a case of this scope and magnitude so if

she's disqualified, it is likely it will take any new prosecutor if at all and then this case goes away and that is exactly what donald trump would want. because this is one of the cases. a state level case where he could not pardon himself and can't get the doj to drop it. >> what happens next. >> the hearing has concluded for today. oral arguments or closing arguments are to take place on friday at 1:00. judge macafee did note that a recent filing done by trump's attorney steve sadow, that nathan wade cell phone records that he's going to take up the cell phone records on friday at the hearing and if he determines that that evidence is relevant, he will reopen the evidence once again. i mean, this is become the longest evidentiary hearing and it is gone off the beaten path. but that is supposed to happen on friday at 1:00. and we'll see what more evidence is taken then. >> thank you for bringing me up

to speed. melissa, thank you for being here. this is the in you book. it is called "the trump indictments", with commentary. this is what i needed when i came back, right. i read at the time they were printed out with my lie lighters and my marks and now they're all here. so thank you. andrew, you could check out but you could never leave. you're coming back next hour. up next, democrats already seizing on an opportunity to go after republicans heading into november on the issue of reproductive health care. no you thanks to the ruling in alabama that embryos are people to, democrats are intensifying that directly to donald trump. that story is next. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere.

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i think if we see what is happening in alabama, this is an issue that is not over. even here in michigan where we've secured the rights if there is a second trump presidency, we could see a national abortion ban, and that means ivf and stem cell research an the fundal right to make our own choices about our bodies and our health care. so this is very much at risk for american women and girls and families. on this up coming ballot, i think that is something that we can't let people lose sight of. >> michigan governor gretchen whitmer with some truth bombs there on the stakes of the 2024

presidential election after the alabama supreme court rules that embryos are people imperilling the access to participate in ivf and showing voters just how extreme republican policies and court decisions are in a post roe world. democrats have seized on this moment. nbc is reporting that, quote, democrats from joe biden on down are blaming the alabama court's ruling that embryos are human on trump's shaping of the u.s. supreme court and the subsequent over turned of roe v. wade. in response by republican leaders to voters who are angry and afraid, unsure if they will be able to get a medically necessary abortion in their state or grow their families through ivf, if republicans take control of the white house and congress has fallen short of what voters deserve. here is greg abbott when he was asked about the future of ivf in texas. >> texas has one of the strictity anti-abortion laws in the country. are you saying that families in texas who are using ivf had

extra embryos that are frozen do not need to worry? >> well, so you raise that question, that are complex that i simply don't know the answer to. >> you're going through ivf and you live many my state and you have embryos froezzen and i have nothing for you. i'll call you back, dana. joining us now, president of reproductive -- and michael steele is here. let me go from the ridiculous to the profound. this is tammy duckworth and putting this back into focus what infertility and ivf is actually like. >> my infertility would become one of the most heartbreaking struggles of my life. my miscarriage more painful than any wound i ever earned on the battlefield so it is a little

personal to me when a majority male court that suggested that people like me who are not able to have kids without the help of modern medicine should be in jail cells and not taking care of their babies in nurseries. politicians could possibly call themselves pro-life. >> i got one more for you. sorry. this is tommy tuberville. watch. >> i was all for it. we need to have more kids. we need to have an opportunity to do that and i thought this was the right thing to do. we need more kids. we need people to have the opportunity to have kids. >> that he exists is amazing to me. but there he is on the decision that so -- it sets itself up for a bad joke. how bad is the alabama decision? it is so bad that trump went out over the weekend and you couldn't get between him and a camera when he was trashing it.

that is how bad it is. >> yeah, and that is where they find themselves. the reality of it is very straightforward. that they've now gotten to the point that they don't know how to really manage their win, if you will, with the dobbs decision. in other words, 50 years fighting to get roe v. wade over turned, during that time no one had a conversation about the consequences when that happens. and what the eventual fallout would be. and how it would touch on ivf, contraception, health care, real health care issues for women that are caused by ept optic pregnancies and or miscarriages and the like and now tuberville and others find themselves unable to explain what next.

and this is an opportunity for women to define very clearly for them what is next. and they can do so at the ballot box. they could make it very clear what their priority is here. they're health is more important to them than the politics of the some man who doesn't have to carry a child. who doesn't have to worry about becoming pregnant because they want so much to start a family. and that is not to say that aren't men that support women in those positions. because there are. but at the end of the day, the women are controlling here and that is something that is made very clear by kansas decisions and by oklahoma decisions and other decisions around the country by voters who are making very clear where they are. one final point here. when you have within the pro-life community some 83% of

evangelical christians who support ivf, you know you kind of messed it up. >> mini, we talk about the numbers on abortion and where the republican bans would go in a post dobbs world is eliminating the exceptions and we've come to know the women that have suffered to wait until they were septic to get health and carrying their sick babies and i think that we talk about those numbers, so politically fatal to republicans. as michael is saying, the nrsc, the republican committee in charges of electing republicans to the u.s. senate is the one that brought us those numbers he's talking about. 85% of all respondents including 86 percent of all women support increasing access to fertility services and ivf procedures received overwhelming support with 86% of support and women advocating.

do you know what will happen to an ivf facility if any elect ris is lost, they will go away. and i wonder how you see this building on top of what is already a public outcry over reproductive health care. >> that memo is so interesting because i believe it is based on kelly an conway's research warning republicans not to go in this direction. but look, it is too late. once we went down the road of dobbs, once they overturned roe, once the court was stacked with the extremist judges, this is the natural end game, a natural end to this -- or natural next step in this fight. and it is all rooted in so-called personhood and even the chair of the rnc was a co-sponsor of the house

legislation of the conception act. so there -- and i said this so many times on the show and i apologize. but they are so intertwined with these right-wing extremist ideology organizations, it is now mainstream gop position, the heritage foundation has tons of research and work they've put out on beginning of conception and project 2025 has a whole section on this. dobbs had a foot note and amy coney barrett refused to answer question about person hood. it is here and now and will not stop at ivf. the next place they'll go is contraception and it is impossible for the republicans to detangle themselves from this situation and it is our job to hold them accountable. we just did an ad bye in six congressional areas on this very issue. they are squirming.

they have no place to go. >> 71% of people in this country support legal abortion in all or most instances, 86% support not the current legal structure on ivf, but increased access to ivf. you guys aren't going anywhere. i want to show both of you what women in alabama are saying today about what it means to be denied access in their homes to starting families. families. with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com. introducing ned's plaque psoriasis. he thinks his flaky, red patches are all people see.

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-- have already been removed for us. and so my hopes have already been dashed. and then to take it away feels like we have nothing. it is terrifying to think right now that i feel like my em beos are locked up. we're not allowed to move them or transport them. i wish that every embryo meant a living baby. but i'm here today to say that every embryo is the change of a living baby. and this recent ruling is taking away that chance for all of us. >> roe v. wade didn't just touch on abortion like everything. it could migrate into other -- other areas life. >> life in donald trump's america, a small sliver of the pain happening today, being experienced by women would happen to live in alabama and what they're going through now. but with that state's highest court has jeopardized their ability to create families using

ivf. we're back with minnie and michael. it felt like the head of trump's supreme court over turning roe, there was a story to tell. now the story is being lived an lived experiences -- and i think michael's point, men and women in this country who are suffering, who are afraid of being prosecuted and making plans of who will take care of their kids if their prosecuted and women afraid of dying if they get pregnant and couple as frad of what will happen to their embryos and their chance at having a baby will be taken away from them after going through all of this to create embryos. what are you -- what does this conversation look like in your view for the next eight months? >> you know, that one alabama perspective mom in the clip, who said it didn't end with roe and it wasn't just about abortion.

she nailed it. the longer dobbs is in place and the longer we have these abortion bans and the 21 states and county and restrictions, the more these consequences we're going to see and ramifications beyond abortion stories. abortion horror stories are increasing by the week. we hear more and more dystopian tales of folks trying to cross state lines and fearing prosecution and doctors and patients and providers but now in alabama, as i said before, it is the natural conclusion to what happens when you literally interpret the law the way that the supreme court has. so, i think that the conversation in the next eight months is going to be laser beam focused on the laser-beam focused, but also holding republicans accountable for the devastation they've wrought, but also challenging republicans to be onboard with us on the policy solutions.

right, it's not going to be enough to pass resolutions. you have to really get onboard with tactical solutions. and they're still unwilling to do that. >> that's amazing. to be continued. minnie, thank you so much for being here. michael steele sticks around. another quick break for us. he and i will be right back. us he and i will be right back. developed with vets. made from real meat and veggies. portioned for your dog. and delivered right to your door. it's smarter, healthier pet food.

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>> that's classified. it's about how old your ideas are. look, this is a guy who wants to take us back. he wants to take us back to roe v. wade. he wants to take us back on a whole range of issues that are 50, 60 years they've been solid american positions. but i think everyone we've gotten done, he's -- this friendly state, he wants to do away with when he gets elected. and a really think his views on where to take america are older than -- anyway. i don't want to get going. >> i mean, this is the answer, michael steele. and it was good to hear him say it, good to hear him be asked the question. and i -- you know, he's not running against pete buttigieg. he's not running against, you know, i mean, the idea that this is such a self-conscious thing for democrats is ridiculous to me. the agenda is something that republicans are jealous of. the bush -- or the trump appoint

yes and the legacy is something that republicans are running away from. the conversation we just had. and i wonder what you think about this exchange last night. >> i enjoyed it. it was great. in fact, you know what he was thinking, nicole? you know, trump is running around with ideas older than me. and he just didn't say it. >> he should have! that's funny. >> yeah. >> yeah. it's funny, and we all completed that sentence for him. and i think -- you know, i think the white house, and particularly the political shop needs to just let, you know, dark brandon come out. let him come out and do his thing. let him have some fun. let him make a mistake here or there. it's human, it's natural, you know. your grandpa, your uncle, your neighbor, your friend, that's joe. he's that guy for a lot of americans. and the more they allow that side of him to tell the story of the success of this administration, the stronger is case can be made, and the more it will influence those who are

sitting there fixated on his age, when they see he's perfectly capable of, you know, completing a sentence, sharing ideas. i mean, literally, if i were doing an ad right now, i would put up a joe biden speech and i would put up a donald trump speech. and just let it play. and then tell me which one has a cognitive issue. which one can articulate their position. >> you and i have to do this. we have to solve this issue for democrats. i feel like they hand wring about it. but it's not just the performtive piece, which of course joe biden is superior to donald trump. that's still to me a defensive posture. it's the agenda. it's the relationships. and it's the alternative. and i feel like maybe we have to put our republican add-making thinking caps on and give them -- i have more thoughts. i'm glad to hear yours. i'm so glad to see. you michael steele, so glad to

see you. >> personal privilege, welcome back! >> thank you, my friend. ♪ welcome back ♪ >> and congrats on your new fabulous weekend show. i loved it. >> thank you very much. we're having fun. >> okay. up next for us, michigan's secretary of state jocelyn benison has been tonight front lines of democracy as voters go to the polls at a time of increased threats and rising fears of autocracy. she's our next guest, next. auty she's our next guest, next

this election and we'll see this over the next mine months is an opportunity for we as americans to make a very clear statement about who we want to be in the next few years and how will our country be defined. will we continue to potentially go down a path of division and noise and rancor? or will we choose to reject candidates and leaders who try to divide and spread misinformation and spread lies, knowing that it's going to cause greater division? >> hi, again, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. every election has consequences,

we know that around here, right? this upcoming presidential contest is, of course, the perfect example of that. the stakes go beyond the usual policy debates between two candidates. this one, as you just heard, michigan's secretary of state, jocelyn benson articulate, will define us as a country, it will set the tone and direct voters all across michigan are choosing who they want to represent them in november's general election. donald trump and nikki haley squaring off in a republican primary and on the democratic side, president joe biden is contending with some voters who disagree with his support of israel. michigan is a critical battleground state in the electoral college count. it has emerged as a battleground state in more than one way, over the last several years, it has become one of the front lines in the country in this war being waged against our very democracy. in 2020, there was a plot to

kidnap governor gretchen whitmer and to overthrow state government violently. over a dozen individuals were charged in the fake elector scheme, where they falsely attempted to present themselves as michigan's rightful 2020 electors. and benson herself has been the target of many violent threats and harassment for just carrying out her official duties as the state's top election official. in an interview with npr, she spoke about the new normal of running elections there. quote, the events of 2020 and beyond have alerted election officials to new kinds of dangers, including physical ones and from adversaries abroad could potentially be even greater, this time around. extra steps are being taken to ensure those administering our elections are kept safe. quote, they also want to equip poll workers with tools for de-escalating any incidents that may happen during voting and get

them back up quickly if needed. for example, poll workers will be able to discreetly text a specific number to simultaneously reach a member of law enforcement, a local election official, and the secretary of state's office. all of this underscores how 2024 will require a whole new approach to our elections. and how leaders and voters alike need to safeguard our democracy so it can survive and stand firm in the face of those attempting to tear it down. this is where we start the hour with michigan secretary of state, jocelyn benson, and cofounder and the executive director at protect democracy, and andrew weismann is back with us, former top official at the doj and a member of the board of editors at just security. just security has just assembled and unveiled an american autocracy threat tracker, which we'll talk about and show us how to use nit a couple of minutes. madame secretary, i'll start with you. tell us how election is going

today in your state of michigan. >> first, nicole, welcome back, it's really great to see you, and congratulations on baby izzy, and all the wufr things in your life. it's unseasonably warm for february and this is our first election of the political cycle. and as i visited poll workers, i've seen an enormous amount of energy and recognition of the importance of this cycle and the defining moment it's going to be, and also pride, particularly from election workers who have run through the gamut these last few years and are ready for whatever '24 may bring and determined to, with a smile, do their jobs, protect every citizen's vote, and withstand any attacks that come our way. >> madame secretary, there's this sort of two sides of the coin, right, in a post, january 6th country. you've got reports that up to

40% of state legislators experienced threats or attacks in the last three years. i know you've been focused on protecting election workers, and, but, you've also got a lot of people who realize how important those jobs are and who are raising their hands and saying, i'll do it. tell us what that looks like in your state. >> you know, every poll worker i spoke with today and i spoke with several dozen, i asked, how many times have you done this, what's it been like? and i spoke with one who, it's her first time serving as a poll worker in detroit, and she said she signed up, didn'tand wanted part of protecting the system. i spoke with one poll worker who was there on detroit, on the fateful night in november of 2020, when people were banging on the walls and he said he was afraid the walls were going to come down on top of them it was so loud and scary, and yet, here he was today with a smile, determined to do the job. determined to do it well.

and we've passed new laws for election workers and i've told those who have been threatened how much easier it will be to hold accountable those who make it harder for them to do their jobs. so we've added protection for our workers, so we can seek accountability if anyone tries to do anything this time around. >> one of the most searing anecdotes of the january 6th era and the congressional investigation into it is, of course, secretary benson's experience of being home when people were outside of her house, but obviously, the experiences of miss ruby, of ruby freeman and shay moss. and i'm old enough to remember when republican staffers in between presidential cycles would go to foreign countries, prop up emerging young democracies and help them have safe and secure elections and help keep their election workers safe. what does it look like around the world to see mobs outside of

michigan's secretary of state's house? >> you know, first off, i love that we're celebrating what's happening in michigan today, and we should absolutely celebrate secretary benson and the entire team of workers in michigan, who as you note, are providing such an incredible public service today in allowing democracy to flourish. but they shouldn't have to do so under threat for their physical safety. that is not way that we can maintain democracy going forward. and to your point, nicole, it also sets a terrible model of what democracy should look like overseas. i was talking to someone who was doing some training of foreign militaries on behalf of the u.s. defense department, state department doing these programs, to train people. and they were doing this training on the day that the election results came down in 2016. and they said that in the midst of the training, once the results of the 2016 election got announced, they could see a change in the faces of those

they were training, looking to her as a representative of the united states, and what the united states represented. and i think we're sending that negative signal now that, instead of the country that's going around helping people, with how to run democracies, how to run elections, how to make them work, we're actually exporting a model that is a race to the bottom and is very dangerous. we've got to reverse that soon, not only for our own sake's, but the world. >> i mean, i usually come back at you with a million questions about trump's role in branding and promoting. and you know, maga is clearly making autocracy great again -- it's never been great in this country, but making it an acceptable thing among his base. but i want to turn that around over the next eight months. i mean, how do you turn around people who have been convinced that that's the case? how do you turn around the trump voters that answered questions from reporters on camera in broad daylight in south carolina, saying, yeah, i think

we need a strong man here in america? >> well, i mean, i think one thing is to acknowledge and understand how those temptations are very human. and what i mean by that is, democracy is a rare form of government. it's rare in human history, it's not the way that we run our families. it's not the way we run our businesses. it is a sort of strange form of government that's only existed for a precious few years, in a precious few countries, in all of human history. and i think that says something about human instincts, which is that in particular, in a moment of rapid change, in a moment where people feel anxiety about the future, anxiety about what world they're going to leave to their children, when things are seemingly spiraling -- because of change, spiraling out of their hands, then -- and when democracy seems broken and gridlocked, as ours often does, the temptations of someone who says "i alone can fix it," give me all the power and i'll break through the morass, appeals to a certain human instinct that has

prevailed many times in human history. and acknowledging that temptation is part of it. and then pointing out that in every time in human history where people have succumbed to that temptation, it has never worked out well for them. when you speak to people who originally thought that danielle ortega was going to bring utopia to nicaragua and now regret the fact that they cannot speak freely without the fear of being arrested, you have to remind people that that temptation leads to something much darker than they assume. but it starts by acknowledging some of the arguments and fears that lead people down the tempted road towards autocracy. >> in that process, where do you think we are? you look at the ecosystem or permission structure in the self-sustaining nature of the support for trump, the media outlets that do what you're doing, that say, yeah, i know you're scared of what you're seeing happening in the cities, and he alone can fix it, to, quote him and to quote you, i mean, are we passed the point where you can reach those people? or are there instances in other

countries, where it's become this sort of widespread, that people would accept an autocratic leader and they've turned back? >> well, no, i don't think we're past the point. we're at a point that's pregnant with opportunity here, which is that we've actually done quite well as a nation when you compare us historically and internationally. so typically, if you look over the globe and look back at history, when autocrats take the highest office in the land, they rarely leave quickly. they tend to stay there. you look around the world, erdogan, orban, vladimir putin, they're there for 20 years, 25 years, 30 years. our autocrat left at the end of one term, largely through the democratic process now, obviously, january 6 represented a horrific break in the normal peaceful transfer of power, but we turned an autocrat out largely through a democratic process. and that is a huge testament to the resilience of american democratic institutions and the coalition in this country that is a major, that brings together people from the left, the right,

and the center, who fundamentally believe in democracy and not autocracy. that's the lesson for us. you see it in other countries, as well. poland, for example, recently, turned out its illiberal government by bringing together a coalition of people from the left, the center, and the right. progressives, moderates, and conservative who is disagree about policy and politics, but agree on democracy. we've done that in the united states in recent years and i think we can and will do it again. >> but people are worried. and you guys have rolled out some real markers. and ian was one of the first people in this program to lay out the actual specific things that we should wash out for, as you see the murder, the unrepentant murder of navalny, as you see in places like turkey and hungary and people like putin, people and practices that donald trump praises, not privately, the praise is not turning up in investigaive

journalism, it's turning up at trump rallies and the crowd cheers. >> at new york university where i teach at the law school, this really goes to the question i asked ian, which is sort of what can be done? and one thing that can be done is to get people to really focus on, what does it mean. what will it actually look like? obviously, you can look at trump 1.0, and think about it, but if you want to really focus on this idea of like, oh, is it really the lesser of two evils. won't it really be the same. isn't joe biden the same as donald trump, just a different degree. here's just a couple of things, i just wrote up a quick list. this is all on just security. you can go and there's support for each of these and there's sites and they'll be updated with additional sites as more evidence comes in. so people can see, what does it mean. what do we know what is happening? so here's just related to things that you've been covering. the right to vote. abortion, ivf, contraception, lgbtq ai-plus rights, the

department of justice, where there'll be a civil service, attacking the free press, whether you and msnbc -- >> he's talked about taking this network off the air. >> exactly. >> what tech can do in terms of social media and whether they have to promulgate false narratives. in other words, the disinformation that -- with respect to covid something that right now is being litigated with the far-right saying, that's not something that the government should be able to do. that you should absolutely have to have that on air, even though it can kill people. separation of church and state, where the whole idea that is fundamental to this country is under severe attack. the supreme court, not just the supreme court in terms of who will sit there, but the issue of like how large it will be, whether there will be packing, whether donald trump follows a netanyahu model and restricts the role of the supreme court. i mean, these are fundamental changes to what it means to be a

democracy, you know, ending with what ian said, which is that somebody who is installed, who follows the sort of erdogan/putin model does not leave. so, this is something that if you really want to sort of compare what is it we're facing? you can, obviously, one resource is to go to just security and look at the tracker that will continue to be updated, so you can educate about what it would mean. and you have to ask yourself, i may not agree with every single thing that a politician is for, but there's a choice here, and it's stark. >> i mean, ian, you've said on this program before that if trump's re-elected, you don't think he'll leave. i'm curious, and i was away, so i had time to mull this. i'm curious when you come back and people are sort of down here, the reason i understand that there are concerns about the cost of things, there are concerns about safety, there are other things that concern people. but this isn't an election

about, you know, the price of milk. it's an election about whether the next guy who wins leaves in four years. >> yeah, so the 22nd amendment to the u.s. constitution limits presidents to serving no more than two terms. but here's the question that has troubled me. we just watched the u.s. supreme court here -- well, we didn't watch, but we listened to it because we don't have video, but away listened to the supreme court grapple with this challenge as to whether president trump is even eligible to hold the office because he engaged in insurrection on january 6th, and therefore according to the 14th amendment, at least on a clear reading of the law, somehow disqualified. but it was clear from that oral argument that the supreme court did not want to step in and remove someone from the ballot who is hovering somewhere in the range of 46, 47, 49, maybe 50% support in this country. and if they're unwilling to do that, with respect to the 14th amendment and trump having engaged in insurrection, i think we should be concerned that they

might be unwilling to do that with respect to the 22nd amendment. if trump would have returned to power and the entire republican party were behind him, four years from now, with all of the things that are laid out in the incredible just security resource that andrew and his team put together, and he's still recovering in a divided country around 48%, do we really think the supreme court will step in at that point and enforce the 22nd amendment? i don't think we have reason to have that level of confidence right now. >> madame secretary, you get the last word. what do you think would happen? >> i actually do think they would step in. i think the issue of a third term for a president is much more cut and dried than the 14th amendment issue that the court is grappling with. as someone who was there at the supreme court, oral arguments, i did watch them, i think there are two separate analyze. but in that said, in a democracy, the power to define who we are and our leaders are always lies with the voters. so we have to ensure, in this election, that voters know what's at stake and voters know the power that they have to

define future of country with the votes they will cast this year, including in the presidential primary. >> michigan secretary of state, who has a very busy day today, jocelyn benson, thank you for starting us off this hour. thank you for sticking around. when we come back, we continue our special series, american autocracy. it could happen here with stunning new reporting about one of the bright red flashing red lights of a democracy backsliding into autocracy. our very own vaughn hillyard has been in the field at trump rallies for many, many months. we'll bring you what he has found and why he's alarmed by it, why we all should be, next. and later, with russia's brutal war in ukraine now entering its third year, we'll check in with our dear friend i var novikov about the real-world results of republicans who have turned their backs now very publicly on ukraine. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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autocracy is contagious. the culture he has created is catching. one of the things that's deeply concerning is that if we were just talking about donald trump, that would be enough. but we're talking about a population that has been very quickly educated. we have a population now that basically doesn't know what ethics are in the public life. >> autocracy is contagious. it's one of those things that stopped me in my tracks, because it's so true. and no one knows that better

than our very own vaughn hillyard. if the autocratic slide around election denialism had a beat reporter, it was vaughn. he has seen this dissent into lies and fiction being willfully and enthusiastically accepted as fact by trump voters for many many years now. this brand-new reporting shows this logical but very dangerous extension. take a listen. >> if russia did take over ukraine, would it give you any pause? >> i don't have a problem with russia. i really don't. i have a problem with ukraine. they're corrupt! i think that people are just ridiculous, that they think that putin is such this enemy. he isn't doing anything. she just wants back what was his. >> reporter: but he invaded -- >> he wants back what was his. >> he invaded ukraine, killing thousands of people. >> that's fine. that's fine with me. >> reporter: as a veteran yourself, does it concern you at all that russian aggression could move beyond ukraine? >> i don't think putin is a

problem. i think zelenskyy is the problem. >> why is putin not the problem. he's the one that invaded ukraine and killed thousands of people. >> because putin is trying save his country from the likes of idiots like zelenskyy and the elitists. >> this administration is trying to start a war with russia. russia is not our enemy. >> "russia is not our enemy." wow. that's chilling. those people weren't asking to have their voices altered or talking to vaughn behind curtains. talking to him on camera. it fits in perfectly and alarmingly with our new series, "american autocracy: it could happen here." we are so lucky to have vaughn agree to show us how we got here. he'll be joining us with his exclusive ability to cut through the noise that happens in studios like this one and help us understand what's actually happening in the country. so, we were talking before about how this vote to not provide

funding for ukraine in washington gets covered as though it is deattached from these men and women who love putin and hate zelenskyy. put those things back together for us? >> i think it's important for folks to understand when we go to these trump rallies around the country, engage in these conversations, it's not a matter of whether the u.s. should be engaged either with personnel or with aid in foreign wars. and that's not where the conversation is. it's a matter of whether volodymyr zelenskyy is evil or not or whether putin is in the right to further move beyond russia's own border lines. and this is where it is difficult and complicated, because we're talked about the conditioning of his supporters. ruth ben and ian have been so poignant about this. from two years ago, when we were first having conversations about the devastating images coming out of mariupol, we're talking about war crimes. and where over the last two years we have gone, after listening to donald trump suggest that he would broker

some deal between ukraine and russia, never flat-out condemning vladimir putin's aggression here, suggesting just last week that russia could do whatever the hell they want. those words have impact, on these communities around the country. and these folks that we are talking to, because it hits at the crux of what the u.s.' role in the world is, as a democracy, and whether we are going to be defending other democracies and our allies against the autocrats like vladimir putin. >> let me ask you this. are these people -- do they -- does it expand to re-litigating the cold war? >> this is for them is, right, it's a matter of what you heard that one man say. what is russians -- >> what's the cold war, right -- i mean, do they want the wall back up in berlin? i mean, how does it -- does it -- is it that deep or is it a more shallow, reflexive reflection for putin and animosity for zelenskyy? >> i think largely, it is very shallow. this is, you know, when we're

talking about vladimir putin right, tucker carlson's conversation, just two weeks ago with vladimir putin, that went on for more than two hours, the number of folks -- >> still going on, i heard. >> the number of folks that told me that they listened to it and walked away more sympathetic to vladimir putin, that they understood where he was coming from. tucker carlson is somebody who donald trump has floated as his vice president. that don jr. has said he would wish for him to be the vp. that's where donald trump's words have impact. because he is telling folks that this is somebody that you should listen to. that this is a valid voice. and when that valid voice goes over to russia and talks with vladimir putin, you have, therefore, legitimacy in these folks' minds to go back into their communities, talk with their family members, go to their churches, go to their kids' schools, and echo, parrot russian propaganda, that the u.s. should not be sending our own taxpayer money to ukraine, because it is ukraine that is evil, that is the one that is corrupt. and this is where it is so tough, so often, to untangle the

lies, the russian propaganda, and frankly, the conspiracy theories that, again, it doesn't hit at the heart of the normal foreign policy conversation that we as democrats -- >> if someone here sends you out -- let me show some of that. >> does russian aggression concern you, that they could -- >> no. >> why not? >> because i watched tucker carlson's interview. putin don't really want to do anything. you know, i think that's old news. i don't really think that he wants to do anything. >> reporter: do you think that russia has ill intent towards the united states? >> i don't. no, i don't. after watching the interview with tucker carlson, i do not. >> what do you do? >> to my point exactly. the hardest part about these conversations is this woman overseas seems like a nice human being. producer dan who is shooting all of this video with me, he's been traveling with me since the summer to go and shoot all of these interviews. we have not shown any of them until now. this was just last week, but producer dan, he actually did

five stints in ukraine, working with our colleagues over there, for each one of those was a month. and the hardest part for him in conversing with him here is just how separate of a reality that he witnessed with his own eyes, civilian deaths and you come back here -- >> the slaughter of bucha. >> the slaughter. and a woman like this can go with confidence and say that vladimir putin is not an enemy, that russia is not an enemy of democracy, of the united states, we are suddenly at the brink of having a legitimate conversation in our communities that our kids are engaged in on whether russia, who has slaughtered thousands of people in ukraine, is in the right or in the wrong. >> oh, my god. >> and those are the conversations that are happening in our communities around the country. >> i have so much more to ask you and i wish he was here. we'll have to bring him back next time. we have to sneak in a quick break. will you stay? >> yes. >> we'll be right back. will you? >> yes >> we'll be right back

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i wouldn't be surprised if there was a revolution. >> what does that look like to you? >> total mayhem. but i think it's going to be the only choice that some people see. >> they say joe biden wins the white house again, you don't believe that he actually does, how do -- how does trump come into power, then? >> it may be up to us. >> is that a physical takeover

of the white house? >> could be. and it wouldn't just be the white house. it would be the country. >> the pentagon? >> sure. >> and do you think that human life could be a consequence of that? >> it could be. it's called collateral damage. and the cost of war. >> i don't know what to say. >> she talked about -- these are conversations that last 15 minutes, nicole. these are the parts -- when i talk about untangling all of this, when i said, okay, what does it mean to take over the country, she said, you start at state government and work your way towards washington. this is so complex and so deep. and these are not one-off conversations. these are conversations that folks are the engaged in. i said, have you talked to your family and neighbors about this, she said, oh, yeah, we're all ready for this moment. >> so did they look at january 6th as mission not accomplished, but did they look at january 6th, as if, like, if only we'd

been in all the capitols? >> two parts. one, they believe that january 6th, donald trump should have been the one that was named president of the united states. but number two, they also justify the violence that took place that day. it's very complex. they believe that they were set up on the attack that day, but then it gets at the heart of, that is just furtherance of why they need to come into power this time around. because once again, january 6th was evidence that the fbi and the u.s. government, joe biden and the democrats were all out to get them and imprison them. they named the january 6th defendants who remain behind bars, despite the video evidence they were the ones that were assaulting capitol police officers. it's complex. >> so i could never look at donald trump again and feel like i was doing a responsible job as a cable news host, but i could play two hours of what he's done to ordinary americans and feel like we don't yet understand the threat we face in every community, the threat facing prosecutors and lawmakers, and not just democrats, but any republican who wants to administer an election in which trump doesn't prevail.

what do you think after you talk to these folks? >> we have to come back to the word conditioning, conditioning, conditioning. it's not a matter of what donald trump has done. he has led people to not believe in the press. he has led people not to believe in our justice system, our intelligence agencies. he has led people to not believe -- >> our military leaders! >> our military leaders! that's what he's done the last nine years. it's about what he's actively doing. >> and what is that? >> it's about what he is actively saying. when donald trump every single one of his rallies finishes by saying, 2024 is our final battle, it's women like that that here that message, final battle to them is violence! it is a takeover of the white house. the number of people that tell us that they do not believe that donald trump will not win in november without the democrats having stolen it, that's visceral. you can call donald trump an unwitting actor. he doesn't know the impact he's having on the people. but the reality is that he is having an impact on the people. millions of them. and i cannot underscore enough the difficult conversations with these fols who again, that

woman has a grandkid, you know. i'm sure that those grandkids look at her as a great grandmother. a grandmother who believes in the best interests of her grandkids, it is going to be up to them to fight, tyke over state government, federal government buildings. we saw it play out on january 6th, a small part of this country that went and actually did this attack here. but when donald trump talks about the final battle, and about eliminating the marxist, the deep state, he talks about, you know, getting rid of the fake press for good, ridding them of the fake press for good, this is serious. and folks hear it in a different way than, you know, they maybe even did in 2016. it's about the conditioning to this point. donald trump, when he talks about russia, when he talks about nato, in saying that russia can do whatever the hell they want, because nato countries are not paying up. the reality is that they are putting money towards their own national defense. and the one time that article v was triggered was by us to come

to defend the united states after 9/11. when you try to get into that part of the conversation with folks, you can't. >> do they believe that 9/11 happened? >> interesting you asked, one of the woman we talked to said no. the conspiracy has gone so deep. our job as journalists is to have skepticism of the government and question what we are told. for these folks, it's not even a skepticism of what we are told and what the truth is, for them, it is flat-out a belief that we are being lied to and that there is a cabal, not only in the united states, but a global cabal, that is simply coming in to take over the life as they know it. their version of democracy. again, when we talk about strongman, for them, a great number of them, they don't understand the historical connotation of what a strongman means. >> do we have that? do we have the strongman sound? >> he said tonight, quote, it's nice to have a strong man running the country. what does that mean to you? >> it means somebody that's got

some backbone. >> that is, of course, not what it means. >> no, it's not what it means. donald trump, i'm sitting there at a rally and i texted ruth when this happened, on a saturday evening, i said, donald trump said from the stage, it's not to have a strong man running your country. he was talking about victor orban. he was the sole holdout for sweden and being allowed into the nato, but also for holding up eu providing $50 billion in aid to ukraine. and for this woman, when she hears "strong man," the number of people who say, that is what we want, donald trump strong, it lacks a historical context. and for donald trump, every time he talks like this, he is making the case that i, effectively, i can read the country of the deep state, i can rid the country of us giving money to folks like ukraine, i am the one who can get stuff done when congress doesn't.

it is so deeply engrained at this point after eight years, but it's also about what's ahead in every one of these speeches, what he is saying now has impact on our future in the nine months ahead. >> are you ever treated badly? >> yeah, the number of folks who won't talk to me, and that's why i wonder how deep convictions do they hold? the number of folks that are just -- they're frankly, i'll use the word mean. they're not nice. eight years ago, we used to be able to open up our hearts and reason. i've also got a mother, i've got a family, i've got a partner. and you can talk, i'm from arizona. -- >> there were still common things. >> there were common things. we could find a place and have a civil conversation. i can't get there with so many people now. i want to be clear, this isn't anybody, but this is a strong, growing number of people. i was at donald trump's first-ever maga rally back in july of the 2015. i can't count the number i have been to over the last nine years since, but it is a visceral reaction to folks that is growing, it is in anger, of resentment of not only folks inside of the country, but also

those outside including us. and i don't know where it is heading, but if we ignore this over the next nine months, i don't think we're doing any of us any good, because those conversations are not conversations who are running for political office. these are folks that go to our churches and our schools and in our communities. they are our family members, our loved ones. and it's for so long, i think that we have denied and run away from the entanglement of conspiracy theories. but it's dangerous if we don't have true conversation about the conditioning and the impact of the words, whether donald trump happens to have it or not, on the people that follow him and look to him in this movement that he created. >> can we do it here? >> i would appreciate it much, nicole. >> very much to be continued. your reporting has always been the reporting that's opened my eyes to how much of it we miss, despite richard being here. and how much of it is sort of post-trump, right? like, we had a debate about whether or not we should air his rallies.

we're beyond that debate. they know how to get to his sound whether we air it or not. they don't need us anymore. and when you talk about the threat of violence and this total post-fact part of the population, it is really terrifying and i'm so grateful to you for still being out there. i do worry about you, but really grateful to see all of your reporting. thank you so much. >> thank you. >> we want to thank your producer, dan gallow, as well. when we come back, the on the ground impact of all of this, of maga republicans and trump supporters embracing putin over president zelenskyy of ukraine. we'll check in our dear friend, igor novikov in kyiv after a quick break. , igor novikov in kyiv after a quick break.

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ah, yee! oh, that is a vibrating pain. without any further ado, friend of the broadcast, igor novikov, how are you, membership my friend? >> i'm doing well. the family is doing well. masha and sophia, masha is going to kindergarten her first year, unfortunately, she spends at least a couple of hours a day in the bomb shelter, just kind of sitting out of those alerts and my beautiful wife, mercedes -- that's not right, galena, she's doing well, as well. >> you may closer attention to our politics than you should have to in the middle of everything that you're going through, but i know it's because it matters so much. tell me what you thought. i know you saw some of our conversation with vaughn

hillyard. >> to be honest, it's really depressing to see the underlying factors playing a role here. in ukraine, our best men and women at the moment are dying to defend our country, and a bunch of greedy, narcissistic, hypocritical politicians are doing everything to kill off your democracy and that's kind of depressing, and because of what's happening and certain things, certain maga republicans are doing, you know, they're making north korea look like a more of reliable ally than the u.s. and just let that sink in. >> i mean, look, it also is a sad truth that you've been dealing, that your country and leaders have had to deal with russian disinformation longer than we have. so the fact, i think what vaughn's reporting shows is how effective it's been, that the

disinformation that russians have been spreading around our politics to sew division since 2016, probably beforehand, are working. and the latest reporting i've seen from nbc news is they plan to do even more in 2024. what lessons do you have or warnings do you have for us? >> well, i -- we've learned our lessons, because we have a pro-russian president is we had to overthrow who wanted to sell us out to russia and make us a colony, and luckily, for us and for democracy, a revolution, dignity happens in 2014 and we managed to kind of survive that near miss. but at the same time, the lesson that we've learned, it's pay as much attention and devote as many resources as you can to educating people. so stop the hatred, stop, you know, stop letting russia divide you, you know, it's a choice between united we stand or divided we fall. and that's the biggest thing. and i can actually help you,

because one project that i've been working on for the last three to four months is to deal with education and to deal with a quick fix to give people the critical thinking back. and to get them thinking straight about what's going on. so i'm going to be sharing that with you probably next week and hopefully, we can announce something in the coming weeks. >> i can't wait to hear about that. you used to always come on in the midst of all the horror, and i know that's ongoing on the front lines and throughout a lot of the country, but you always had something good to tell me. what have you got? >> to be honest, the best positive story that i have at the moment is that we're still here, you know? and it's incredibly important, because despite the air raid alerts, despite the fact that my kid has to sit in the bomb of us are used to missles flying and people we know dying daily, we're still here. life goes on, and we're not going to lose this war. now, you can make it easier for us, the united states we look up

to, but you've got your own problems. we're here to help as well. it's not a war between russia and ukraine. it's the war between good and evil, the war between dictatorships and democracy. i think both of us are on the right side of that. >> what does masha think about life as a kindergartner. she doesn't know anything other than spending a lot of her day in the bomb shelter. what's it like for you as a parent or sophia, her big sister, who didn't experience kindergarten that way? >> i've seen both sides of it. the worst thing that happened a couple weeks ago, when masha came home and said, look, dad, we had an air raid alert today. she actually responds to the sirens. she knows what it is. she doesn't know what it entails luckily, just yet. she's getting there. sophia being 14 obviously understands everything. that's kind of the downside of it. the upside that i see here is this whole situation has gone

far enough and no point in trying to restore the balance. this is the opportunity for my country and probably the united states as well to learn from ow mistakes and to write on the fresh page a better future for all of us and especially for our children. nicolle, you're back from being at home with your child. you know how precious they are. you know how important it is to build a few fewer for them. it's not about you and me. it's about the kids. >> totally. >> at the moment in the world we have everything, everything. we have the technology. we have the resources. we have the money, everything to make this world a better place for our kids. the choice is ours, whether we want to go down that drain of dictatorships, torture, rape and murder or find a way to unite ourselves and to stand united to win this war and then to build a

better future. >> igor, i hope this is to be continued over many, many, many conversations. thank you for being back with us. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick break for us we'll be right back. start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. type 2 diabetes? discover the ozempic® tri-zone. ♪ ♪ i got the power of 3. i lowered my a1c, cv risk, and lost some weight. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes. don't share needles or pens, or reuse needles. don't take ozempic® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it.

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testimony from the two women he's attempting to hush in the first place as well as his former attorney and fixer michael cohen. the motion filed by trump's attorney has all the greatest hits being rolled out, accusing michael cohen of being a, quote, liar while seeking daniels of seeking to telecon trooifd stories of salacious details of events she claims occurred nearly 20 years ago. quote, while saying this case is meant to interfere with this trump's 2024 campaign, asking the judge to bar prosecutors from implying the payments were meant to influence the 2016 election. that case which may end up being trump's first criminal trial is set to begin next month. another break for us. we'll be right back. other breaks we'll be right back. slipping out of balance into freefall. i'm glad i found stability amidst it all. gold. standing the test of time. he hits his mark —center stage—and is

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