overturned in this country. because of donald trump, women's lives are at risk, doctors face the prospect of criminal penalties for doing their jobs, and families desperately trying to have children are having access to fertility treatments ripped away. now donald trump wants to ban abortion nationwide's, including here in michigan. that is president biden's -- part of president biden statement on winning is now 80% of the vote in the democratic presidential primary in michigan. that is tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. ruhle starts now. nikki haley isn' andt in georgia this witness w supposedly going to help oust d.a. fani willis. what his testimony did and didn't do. then she knows big tech and the men behind it better than

anyone. joining us live with her burn book as "the 11th hour" gets under way on this tuesday night. good evening once again. i'm stephanie ruhle. we are now 252 days away from the f election. my goodness, 252 days and that is when we are going to be talking a lot about the state of michigan. tonight we saw michigan's first votes of the 2024 race in its democratic and republicanra primaries. and nbc news is projecting donald trump has won the gop race, but around one third of republicanar voters cast their ballot for someone else. and nbc news projects an easy win for president biden in his race with the other story of the night, more than 40 votes for uncommitted after efforts to rebuke president biden over his policies for israel and gaza. still, as we consider these

protest votes, it is important to note the votes for nikki haley on the republican side are much, much larger than the votes for luncommitted, meaning it's big, big night for joe biden. with that let's get right to it, our own steve kornacki is at the big i board. steve, walk us through it. >> yeah, stephanie, let's start republican side. a lot more of the vote. we're up to over 40% statewide. you see trump over 670% and haley 28%. obviously this is a landslide for trump, but i think from haley's standpoint she's indicated clearly she knows she's likely not getting this republican nomination, but she made in that south carolina speech she delivered on saturday night a center piece of her messaging that, hey, here's 40% of the republicans. in new hampshire when she got 43%ca of the vote, in south

carolina where she got 40%. there are voters out there who don't want to vote for donald trump and voting for me. that number she's going to get in michigan tonight is not 40% and doesn't n look like it's gog to be 30%. if you look at all the counties we have so far in michigan and there's 65 counties, there's only one county in the state where haley is getting at least 40% of the vote and it's university of michigan you can she she's getting 43% of the vote is in. higher income, suburban type county, that's the type of place in south carolina haley was doing well, and a place in new hampshire she was doing well. you can see this is the type of place if she were having a south carolina/new hampshire type night she'd be winning washington county. right now this is her best

county in the state. in her best county in the state she's not quite at the number she got in new hampshire. andew meanwhile other parts of e state we'vehe been focusing working class populations, large concentrations of white voters without college degrees that's been trump voters in michigan and elsewhere. and we see there trump is getting 75% of the vote, nearly 80% of the vote. and these small, small counties collectively add up. if you start to play this out, the first counties to come in tonight that make up a disproportionate share right now of the overall vote are these ruserben counties. as the rest of fells in the share of the vote coming from this area is going to decline. as i showed you that's haley's best area tonight. as this vote comes in statewide, this trump under could climb and this haley number could fall further.

it's possible by the end of the night haley 70% in michigan and haleyin falling down to 45. it's a far cry from the 40 and 43% she was getting. the rules in michigan pretty much the m way they were in sou carolina. no such thing as registering as a republican, democrat, independent. anybody could come and vote in this primary today. that was the same in south carolina, but haley is not gelling those numbers she got in the first two contests she made the center piece of her message. meanwhile, on the democratic side uncommitted, dean philips, congressman is running on the ballot here. it's uncommitted whether some activists to try to get a protest vote against israel-hamas policy. about a third of the vote is in here. i think generally in these counties you're looking at about ae 10% level, but it spikes in couple of places. one is the county i talked

about, washington county. in the fall it's a big blue county because it's that college county, big blue michigan. you can see running 21%. within that county we've gotten results from ann arbor itself. in ann arbor getting 32% of the vote. the other place we're keeping an eye on for uncommitted is right here in wayne county. a quarter of the vote is where dearborn is. obviously we've been waiting on this one. we do not have some votes from the county itself. at the moment 56% for uncommitted and 41% for joe biden. so we expected that dearborn of

all the places in the statewide be the epicenter of any uncommitted vote and you can see right now uncommitted is winning dearborn. and one thing to keep in mind biden winning overwhelmingly statewide, there is an issue they give out delegates. and all you fought to do to get a delegate is 15% in a congressional district. and dearborn is fully included in the 12th congressional district. that's rashida tlaib's district. if uncommitted ends up winning dearborn the odds getting a delegate out of michigan is pretty good. so it's possible uncommitted may end up with a gel dt tonight. overall bidenl is probably goi to stay around 80%, but the city of dearborn itself very closely watched right now is uncommitted now. >> steve kornacki, i could

listen to you all night but alas our audience is stuck with tongue-tied me. let's bring in our lead off panel tonight. michael memally he joins us. give us your take away. >> sure. what republicans will say tonight they'll try to draw attention to that uncommitted vote which in many ways is an expression vote. when you look at the republican side, right, there's no one with a pulse who believe nikki haley could win tonight and nonetheless nearly one third of voters came out to vote against donald trump and vote for her.

that right there is a vote about where they will stand in negative, and that's the essence of donald trump's weakness here. what he's constantly seeing in primary after primary is, yes, he'sy got the base locked down but he is struggling with a ceiling. it's that ceiling that hates maga extremism, and nonetheless today once again we see evidence of it. >> republicans are a party divided, and people often like to say, well, both parties are divided, but is that even true because just look at congress, right? president biden's agenda, he has had a largely centrist foreign policy agenda, a progressive economic agenda, and it's worked. if you look at how democrats voted in congress since he took office, they're basically all on the same page.

republicans, they cannot even get their faction in order. >> they used to say i'm not a member of an organized political party, i'm a democrat. those days are long gone. of course, speaker pelosi had a razor thin margin and was able to successfully advance out of the house s monumental legislation, and literally the republican caucus with a similar margin could organize themselves out of a paper box. so it's -- they are totally disorganized, they can't get their act together, and that's also being reflected in these electoral results time and again. there'srati a really strong electoral bloc that wans nothing to do with maga based extremism. >> michael, the biden team knows how crucial michigan will be in november.

what are they taking away tonight? what are you hearing from them? >> well, stephanie, when you think about why the biden campaign, why the dnc, and why president biden himself wanted michigan to be part of this early voting window, the earliest they've ever voted in a nominating contest is because they wanted to highlight some of the strengths president biden has among black voters. so important to president biden. that's the event he came here to do ahead of the primary. what it's also done is exposed some of d the vulnerabilities president biden needs to work on if he's going to carry michigan by the margins he needs to in order to be re-elected president. i spent all dpa talking to the voters in t dearborn, and they e very animated and motivated to vote for the president's uncommitted ballot line because they wanted to sendot a message about what's happening in gaza right now. but you're not going to see that

replicated across the country because obviously the arab american population is significant there. as steve kornacki was laying out there's also significant uncommitted vote with college campuses. we know the bind campaign has struggled with younger voters. you're going to see that on college campuses across the country. he was holding an event on student loans in california. hein didn't do it on a college campus in part because there were concerns about protests emerging at these events. he's going to win the state. he's going to show some strength among the key voters he wanted to highlight, but shows warning signs they need to address, but they do have time to address it between now and november. >> mark, those uncommitted voters are voting against the president for now. as max put it an expression vote because they are not happy about his support for israel. buts we also know right now th

president is pushing for a cease-fire. so is that proof his efforts are working, they're listening? >> it could be. first, when you>> see the exit polling coming out and how ranglynd basically a lot of the protest voters you'll get a sense of the situation. the biggest issue is frankly young voters. places like ann arbor, east lancing, big, big college towns which have suburban populations around them, are these voters going to come home? i think in a whole of it biden seems to have had a pretty good night like he did in new hampshire. he wasn't on the ballot. there was some talk dean philips was going to weigh in performance. south carolina, he did fine. whereas trump seems to be

defining in his polling. ultimately we're going to see whether democratic voters are going to come over in the long-term. there are certainly warning signs here, but also looks like the whole of the party is solidly biden. >> mark, you've covered governor gretchen whitmer extensively. what kind of position is she in? while she's a stupor star surrogate for the president, she's also in asu complicated position needsing to be sensitive to her constituents who are casting those protest votes. >> yeah, she's been extremely cautious. her rhetoric has been really, really krypted. and she's usually a fairly free wheeling rhetorical politician to some degree. in some ways she's run ahead of biden in polls. onf the abortion issue, she's been solid with suburban republicans that had sort of fled the republican coalition over the last few years. she's been very strong there.

the same kind of wave or same kind of delicate situation biden has, and i think she is, you know, a little bit better position now, but i think biden is the one going to really feel the brunt of it going forward. >> makts, nobody thought nikki haley was going to win, but she's still staying in the race with this idea that she's running as an understudy, she's running astu the backup quarterback. but let's say donald trump does get knocked out, she's not going to control the delegates, and i cannot imagine they will turn and say the person who's the thorn in donald trump's side, now we're going to back her. >> yeah, mitt romney would have a better chance of winning the republican nomination than nikki haley at this point. it's almost commendsable in the way she's burned the relationship she's had in the party because the party is not representative ofrt that old school republicanism any longer or at least only a small sliver of it.

you know, in the end the republican party, we like to talk so much about this cultive personality, i actually think it's gotten beyond that at this point. it is centered around a maga extremism that goes well beyond donald trump and will live well beyond him. and we would certainly see that should there be an open contested primary with trump not on the ballot. >> michael, explain this one to us. president biden made history in michigan last year when he joined an auto worker picket line. no president has ever done that before, but new numbers from nbc shows he's actually losing ground to union households to donald trump since 2020. why is that? is it about the every day inflation cost of groceries that have people down? >> you know, it's a fascinating question. it's one the biden campaign is spending a lot of time working on, and we have seen at the leadership level some of the nation's largest unions and

their leadership have come out enthusiastically to support president biden. but we are seeing something of a disconnect with some of those rank and file members of those unions, and it is like inflation. you also could look at the teamster union, the firefighters union, they've not yet endorsed president biden. the firefighters union were the first union to endorse candidate joe biden four years ago. in fact, he even did it before he got into the race. when i spoke to one of the firefighter representatives about why that is, he said, well, our members have other issues, too. he mentioned inflation but also mentioned second amendment rights as another example in which ways these rank and file members maybe aren't lining up with thes leadership. so the president really does have an economic story to tell. they want to spend more time over the course of the year translating the statistic we talk about that you know so well, stephanie, in a way the average voter will understand. when you look at the "state of the union" address next week,

stephanie, that's a major moment the biden campaign hopes to really begin that conversation with voters including union workers. >> all right, let's turn now to another majorrn issue for washington and the country. congress now has three days to prevent a partial government shutdown again. my colleague kelly o'donnell has a look at today's big meeting which took place at the white house. >> their meeting described as intense, yet productive. the president and congressional leaders facing urgent deadlines and differing priorities from critical aid for foreign allies -- >> i think the consequence of inaction every day for ukraine are dire. >> reporter: to house speaker mike johnson insisting the border crisis requires executive action from the vice president. >> the first priority of our country is our border and making sure it's secure. >> reporter: on top of that divide threat of a phased federal government shutdown. friday the first behave of government departments and agencies run out of funds. among them the fda,

transportation, and veterans affairs. march 8th, the rest could close including defense, homeland security, and justice. a painful replay for 36-year-old navy wife and mother of two nikita fowler. >> this is not our first or even second government shutdown, and it's just the continuous worry of how this is going to impact our family. >> reporter:t given the harsh consequences, talk of common ground. >> the shutdown would damage the economy significantly, and i think we all agree to that, and we need a bipartisan solution. >> reporter: optimism, but no clear path yet from the speaker. >> we will get the government funded, and we'll keep working on that. >> will they really, max? you came into congress in 2019 during a government shutdown. when they come back from vacation, what are these negotiations really going to look like, and are they in good faith? >> here's the deal, the most important negotiations are actually happening within the republican caucus, and, you

know, the speaker's challenge is that he's wasted all his political capital. of course after they kicked mccarthy out, they said we can't do this again next week, so johnson had some room to maneuver. that's all gone. the second element of this, though, is that there's a significant portion of the republican caucus that's never actually lived through a government shutdown. marjorie taylor greene hastd ner had to go through this. and what they don't understand because they've never lived it is that when you instigate a government shutdown it's a guaranteed s political loser. this is to say nothing the republican party right now wants that governmentht shutdown becae they want to cut funding for those most in need and want to cut funding for our fight against extremism and radicalism abroad and not to be there for our allies. that's why they want to shutdown government and the american people to a vast extent don't support that. so what they're going have to

see, right, if they do shutdown the government is they'll start to see polls. they'll start to see people going on social media turning against them. they'll start to get calls from their constituents, and they'll have to experience that in order to come back to the table. so there's still a chance, there's still a possibility, but it's not going to be speaker johnson who's going to actually be the one leading this. it is the extreme flank of his own party that kicked out mccarthy and now controls him. >> mark, a government shutdown does not help trump. it does not help republican, but does it help depress the votes? people might not get off the couch in november for a government that doesn't work for them. >> no, but typically people will look to republicans especially if they control the house and will be seen as driving this. and there's a sense of there were a lot of more grownups in the senate at the white house at this point. and every timese the republican congress is front and center, and we've seen this repeatedly

over t the last certainly year half, it's a really bad look for them. it's nothing butor chaos, and there's not a sense anyone's in charge. and look, speaker johnson is in a really, really rough position now. it's unclear how we could navigate this and still keep his job. could probably do a deal, probably get it passed with a lot of democratic votes which would almost certainly lead to some kind of vacating of the chair which is the same thing thatai happened to mccarthy. it's never good i think for republicans when the house republicans are from the senate, and it looks like that's what's going to be happening here. >> when we come back, will the georgia d.a. prosecuting donald trump keep her job? what a key witness said in court today. and later besides a big win, what else should president biden take away from tonight's results in michigan? we'll ask congresswoman debbie dingell. "the 11th hour" just getting under way on this tuesday night.

"the 11th hour" just getting under way on this tuesday night.

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many of us need to take a deep breath on this one. a key witness in the hearing over fani willis' misconduct allegations returned to the stand today. but his testimony may have added even more confusion to the mix. my colleague laura jarrett has it all. >> reporter: this is the man defense attorneys in the georgia election interference case were hoping would establish the time line of the romantic relationship between fulton county d.a. fani willis and lead prosecutor nathan wade. >> i do not have knowledge of it starting or when it started.

>> on the stand for the second time this month, terence bradley deemed a potential star witness for donald trump and his codefendants as wade's former divorce attorney. bradley confronted with tenth messages today he sent suggesting the relationship began before willis hired wade to lead the trump case. but on the stand today -- >> i was speculating. >> reporter: he tried to walk that back. >> when did you first get knowledge of their relationship? >> i've said over again that i was not -- i didn't have any personal information where i could personally say when it started. >> reporter: at issue for the judge to resolve, whether willis benefitted financially from hiring wade as defense attorneys have highlighted the pair's vacations together. >> it is a lie. it is a lie. >> reporter: willis and wade testified expenses were split and that the relationship only began after wade was hired. but willis' former friend cast

doubt on that. >> you have no doubt their romantic relationship was in effect from 2019 until the last time you spoke with her? >> no doubt. >> reporter: the state today opting not to question bradley. >> dave aronberg, state attorney for palm beach county, joins us now. dave, this looks bad today, but when it comes to the judge making a decision, finding evidence that would remove her, did it move the needle today? >> a little bit because this is no longer a question of a conflict of interest as much as it is about lying. because nathan wade submitted a sworn affidavit that said the relationship began after he was hired as special counsel and they split the expenses, now the judge has to determine if he's telling the truth and, in fact if it's proven he and fani willis lied to the court then they probably will be thrown off the case and sanctioned possibly by the georgia bar. >> let's say the judge does throw them off the case, then what happens to the

investigation? if she chose to step down now versus if the judge removes her? >> if she chose to step down, then the same thing would happen as if she's removed. then it will go to the attorney general and be assigned to another director attorney in georgia who probably won't have the zeal about the case as fani willis does and sploe walk in my opinion. we don't know for sure, but one thing we do know is this case is not going to be tried before the election. and if she's thrown off the case, it may never be tried at all. >> reporter: this has become so noisy that fani willis is now the central focus of the case. i do not remember the last time we talked about donald trump and the 20 other codefendants. how big of a problem is that? >> it's a big problem. when you act recklessly like this, look, even if there was no conflict here, by the fact they submitted that affidavit to the court, that set this whole thing in motion. this hearing never had to happen. they could have come lean, and

then i think they would have moved on. i think nathan wade should have been removed as special counsel. but now this has already gone too far, and i think this is headed for very likely disqualification. let's say she's allowed it stay on. how does she do her job successfully? i don't know that i see a scenario where her name is out of this story. >> well, i think at least one of them will be disqualified. i think nathan wade has to go here. i think she could survive, possibly. and, and if she survives she has to just rely on the other two special prosecutors. he's not the only special prosecutor, there are three of them and they're all getting paid the same hourly rate. nathan wade happens to be billing more than the others. >> can you explain to our audience why he bills more than others. that in itself raises problems to some. >> he's the head guy. the biggest problem i have is

for one day he billed for 24 hours in a day. i never heard of anyone doing that. >> come on now, lawyers? there's one thing you all know how to do, bill. >> and so it doesn't look right, and there's this perception of a conflict, but to remove her you have to have an actual conflict of interest, and they didn't have that, and i don't think they have it right now, but it's not about a conflict right now. it's about whether they lied. >> the take away, it's really, really messy. when we return we're going to head back to michigan's presidential primary. we're breaking down the results with someone who knows this state inside and out. congresswoman debbie dingell is here when "the 11th hour" continues. man debbie dingell is here when "the 11th hour" continues.

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today i cast an uncommitted ballot in the presidential primary. >> why'd you do that? >> i did that because i think biden is resting on his laurels here. there are a lot of people here not happy with the job he's doing. >> we voted uncommitted today at the end to put that pressure on the current administration to call for a cease-fire. >> he needs to know dearborn cannot stand directly behind him until he makes a firm stance on the war. >> this is the opportunity to get that message to the administration. i want him to change his policies so i can vote for him. >> despite a strong showing from the uncommitted voters, president biden easily won his

primary tonight. so let's discuss with democratic congresswoman debbie dingell of michigan. congresswoman, great to see you, a perfect night to have this conversation. what are your thoughts on these primary results? >> so first of all, stephanie, it's good to see you. it's been a long day, but i'm glad it's almost over. but i wasn't surprised by it. the fact of the matter is that if you look at the results, i actually said a number of people of people i thought where i lived would get a number of votes in dearborn. that's exactly what happened. i represented dearborn and lost in redistricting, but i represented ann arbor. people want their elected officials to listen to them. so i wasn't surprised on what the results are.

joe biden still wan with more than 80% of the vote. it's going to be competitive, and i wonder why people aren't looking at the trump numbers where he is way underperforming, three times the number of votes at uncommitted. >> a lot of those nikki haley voters are never trumpers. yes, there were over 50,000 of them, but we just heard from a few who said they're sending a message to the president. is this their moment to have their voice heard? we know the president is working on a cease-fire. if something happens, if you see movement, can you win them over? will they vote for him in november? >> yes. i think that's what they've been saying to him. they've been saying to him they want to be heard, they want to be listened to. and by the way there are a lot of other voters that want to be listened to, too, while we're hearing it. look, michigan is -- has the

largest native-american, muslim population in the country or one of the biggest. california has a significant one, too. but it also has a significant jewish population. this is a very, very complicated subject, and people -- the people that i represent, the people i know, the people have families that have had family members that have been killed. they've got family they're trying to get out of there. they are scared. right now they're raw. when i pray we get a cease-fire, we stop seeing innocent civilians die, then we've got to really think about do they want somebody with who's called them vermin and poison and said horrific things and the first thing he did when he got elected was a muslim travel ban? but right now they want people to understand how they are scared for their family, how they've watched these horrific things. >> abortion rights matter, too.

they certainly drove michiganers to the polls back in 2022. do you expect president biden to be put s this issue back in the spotlight between now and november? we know this matter certainly matters to women and young voters especially in those college towns. >> it was on the ballot in michigan, and women here thought, okay, we can now make our own personal health care decisions, the federal government has no role in this, and suddenly you get an alabama supreme court case. i was one of those women that tried to have a baby. i hate to tell you how long ago it was, and i wasn't successful. but i'll tell you what, the federal government had no business in it. and there are a lot of people -- you don't understand how desperate you are when you're trying to have a child. and they don't think about that until they see that ruling, and that's what donald trump's done. at the farmer's market last week

a woman came up to me, never met her, and she said are they going to take away from my birth control. and for birth control she was taking it for a medical condition. suddenly people are saying what are you going to do with me, and it was the government putting women in health care decisions. >> i do want to ask you about your extraordinary husband john. he passed away in 2019. he was a great american, a great member of our government. he had dear friends on both sides of the aisle. what would he be thinking about this rerace and the state of things in our country today? he was a true patriot and a great american. >> i miss him a lot. he taught me a lot. on the day he died, stephanie, you'll probably remember this, he dictated an op-ed that "the washington post" later printed. and he warned leaders that were trying to divide us and what

they were doing to this country and that our democracy was in our hands, those of the voters. and we could not take it for granted. he would have some -- he was better pithy and better at twitter than i would ever be. he would have some very pointed words about the republican nominee. and he knew joe biden. he loved joe biden, and he would tell people that a little wisdom, a little compassionate empathy is a very good thing. >> congresswoman, it is always a pleasure to see you. thank you so much for joining me tonight. i appreciate it. always good to think about your late husband. >> yes, it is. thanks. when we come back, she had a front row seat to the digital revolution. now 30 years later she is sharing her story. her love and her loathing of the tech industry. kara swisher joins us when "the 11th hour" continues. swisher j 11th hour" continues

we turn to this woman to explain everything from elon musk's erratic behavior to the benefits and dangers of a.i. and now my dear, dear friend kara swisher has written it all down, 30 years of experiencing covering dominating the tech industry in her new memoir, burn book, a tech love story. and it begins with this quote. as it turned out, it was capitalism after all. what a great way to start. kara swisher joins me now.

an editor at large of new york magazine and host of pivot with kara swisher. the burn book is out today. congratulations. i don't even know how you could have covered the tech industry for 30 years when you're only 32. >> i'm 32 and i was just precocious is all. >> and you still are. i want to start at the beginning. do you wish that these tech leaders in the beginning are a bit honest. i remember the early silicon valley days when the judge in traditional corporate america or wall street, you guys are just all about the money. >> they were all about the money, they were. and a lot of it was this idea we're going to change the world, it's community. >> not even that philanthropic. >> not a all, actually. and what was interesting is they had to create things, narratives around themselves that were good. and it was a little like, you know, they were in a science fiction thing, that they were the heroes of star wars or whatever. and so they were luke skywalker,

but in fact it turned out a little more darkt vader. >> you have interviewed every major in tech and silicon valley not once, but you were inside. when you look back what -- who is your biggest take away? >> i think lack of accountability over time was the real problem. i think that's what it was, the take away there's these marvelous things that happen. >> do you realize that? >> i say all the time. i'm hoping it'll sink in somewhere. and government had invested in a lot of the stuff for a long time too, by the way. and so one of the things that was important for me to say is how can they build from this, what can they do? instead of building smart things for the most part a lot of it was addictive, silly, time consuming, and just replaced previous things but in a way that was a little more dangerous and a little more polarizing. >> was that always the plan? >> i don't think they had a plan. they hate consequences. i mean they don't think about

them at all, and so early on when google was trying to put every book on their service, they didn't think about copyright. why should we? it's the new day, we can take whatever i want. and i was like i'm going to go in your house and take your sofa just because everyone should have -- >> here's why they should. it's a totally unregulated industry. >> that is correct. >> i don't drive off the road and run red lights. >> well, you might, stephanie. >> i'm not a good driver to be honest. but i can't because there's actual rules. so looking back is it hate the game or hate the player? you now live in washington. you see lawmakers talk a big game but don't do anything. >> at this line i'm blaming them. they're capitalists, they have shareholders. what's the excuse of our congress. they're supposed to protect us. that is their job. and they are elected officials and i think it's appropriate to do so.

tech thought you couldn't touch them, you couldn't touch the magical unicorn, you couldn't fence them in. they are people just like the trains and like everything else. to me it's no different than i don't know making cars or something else. >> you have this quote in the book, you quote this french philosopher where you write where you invent the ship, you invent the shipwreck. at some point you so inside and embedded in silicon valley you stepped away and you realized that. >> earlier than that. i was worried when google tried to have the monopoly. we wrote about the abuses. we wrote gender issues with ellen powell early in that trial. we tried to point to all the things, but even when all the stocks were going up, this is un sustainable, like this is going to be a problem. >> the stocks are still going

up, so do they realize or care they've invented the shipwreck as well? >> i don't think not a enough of them do, i think some of them do. if you raise a child and give them sugar all day they're going to be diabetic and do whatever they want. i think there have to be guardrails. we're in the agi era now, just at the beginning of it. what should we do here? because this is even more powerful. this is the internet on steroids, so what are we going to do about that and do it together as a group of people i don't say leave them out. i just think they shouldn't determine everything. >> you talk about how this is the final chapter, almost the death of the media as we know it. can you speak to that? >> it's not the death. it's got to be reformed again. the numbers are the numbers. >> trust me, they're way up tonight because you're on the show, huge, off the charts, like super bowl numbers. >> the numbers advertising is going and also where people's eyeballs are going, right, where

people are consuming this stuff. scott talked about it on pivot this week, tv for example was 7% or 7% of usage and 30% of advertising and internet was 30% usage and 70% advertising. it just inevitably did that. so the cost structurevise to come down for media rather immediately. but they still -- they never thought the tech people were going to get into media. they were just going to give us the tools to do so, but i always thought they were going to get into media. >> this book was a major endeavor. you looked back than the last 30 years of your life, when you wept into create and then what you ended up writing. what was your take away? what do you want people to get? >> for me, i'm entrepreneurial. i like to change things. this is an innovative country. right now a.i. is happening in

this new country, this new a.i. and we have an ability for everyone to be entrepreneurial and do new things. why does it have to be at the behest of billionaires who are unaccountable bhch why don't we make somestitions on where it should go? >> the richer and more powerful they will get, the less accountable they will ever have to be. >> that is correct. we did that with standard oil, with at&t, we did it with microsoft. our country and government has done that. and it's not to hinder innovation. you know i love ipivation. but where the small companies? we i want the small companies. we don't need google and amazon and facebook to dominate a.i. they have to because it's so expensive. i'd like to see the next google and displace them. >> who would have thunk it, we're ending our show with onoptimist and inentrepreneur and patriot, kara swisher. >> by the way, hello. >> oh, my goodness, a shirt in

honor. who gave it to you? >> a friend of mine. >> fan fastic-touch on that note i wish you a very good night from all our colleagues. thanks for staying up late with me. i'll see you the end of tomorrow. end of tomorrow

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