. good to be with you. i'm katy tur. what is behind the supreme court's decision to hear donald trump's immunity case? it sometimes hard to imagine that the court could actually decide a president could do anything he or she wanted, even order seal team 6 to assassinate a political rival.

what do they want to hear? or is it potentially that they just want to be the ones to hear it. the lead on writing a definitive ruling on something as foundational as whether this president, any president, is above the law. but you can't separate that motivation from the timing. why did it take so long for the justices to decide to hear it? and why will it take so long for them to actually hear it. the court has worked faster before, including on hearing arguments regarding the colorado ballot. again, the timing here matters. not just for this case, which is now unlikely to be tried before election day, but donald trump's other cases as well. the classified documents at mar-a-lago, maybe even georgia, if that case ever even gets off the ground. or the arguments regarding the colorado decision to remove trump from the ballot. there's so much to consider. the motivation, the political effect on november, and the

future of the court itself. how much public trust can it stand to lose before something breaks. >> joining us now, nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett. msnbc legal correspondent, lisa rubin, and former lead investigator for the january 6th committee, timothy hayfee, everybody welcome. there's a lot of talk about why this supreme court wanted to hear this case at all. can you give us any insight into what you were thinking of? >> i think we're watching attention at play here. donald trump's legal team asked the supreme court to weigh in on this on february 12th. it took them roughly two weeks to say, yes, they want to hear it. you only need five votes to say, yes, you want to hear it. to actually take up the case. jack smith asked the supreme court to look at this exact same issue back in december. and they said no. and so my question has been, why

say yes now and say no back in september. what has changed in those intervening months. something must have changed. they didn't need the d.c. circuit to say he's not immune. they're going to look at this with a fresh set of eyes. what did they glean by having the long period of delay from december until now. >> did they glean anything or, i mean, there are a lot of people out there saying this is them doing the partisan bidding of donald trump. he likes to delay, he has a whole history of delay, delay, delay. if he delays long enough, this won't happen before election day. if he wins, he can dismiss this case outright. is there credence to say the supreme court or a faction of the supreme court might be helping him delay? >> i don't know that we have any reporting to suggest that, and the fact that they are agreeing to hear it on april, the week of april 22nd, it was part of the tension that i want to explore, right. they didn't just say we'll get to it when we get to it, they're

hearing it from what to them is an expedited time line. to be fair, on the other hand, i'm not so sure that it's all that clear that they should take into account where the election is taking place. of course like that's part of the reality of the situation that this entire case goes away. jack smith goes away entirely. if the former president is reelected. but we have always been sort of assuming that this all has to happen before the election. i'm not so sure these justices actually feel that that is something that is their role to do. >> could this just be giving him all the due process that he could possibly need or want to go over board and trying to say that donald trump was treated as fairly as possible in our current judicial system? >> it could be. but i want to pick up on something that laura said about what has changed, in that period of time between when jack smith asked them to review initially and when they decided to take the case. i can think of one thing that

changed, donald trump filed a motion to assist the florida case on presidential immunity ground as well. anybody that was on the fence to grant cert, the fact that this issue is likely to reoccur, even though i think that motion is more of a loser than the federal immunity defense in the federal elections case, that could have been the tipping point. to laura's point, it takes four votes to grant cert, five to grant a stay. they granted a stay in effect, but the way they granted the motion yesterday was by converting the stay motion into a position for certiorari. there may have been four votes to hear this case or might have been a courtesy fifth, we just don't know. >> i know we're talking a lot about the motivation here. but the motivation, tim, seems to really matter, especially on an issue as politically sensitive as this one in this extremely politically sensitive

moment. >> yeah, absolutely, katy. look, but lawyers, responsible ones, only traffic in facts, and not speculation. and i don't have any facts which would support any argument that this is a politically motivated supreme court. i don't want assume because a justice is appointed by the former president that he or she is more loyal to rim. i'm going to give him the benefit of the doubt. political motivation. huge political impact regardless of the motivation in terms of the timing of the trial. this pushes it back. doesn't necessarily push it back beyond the date of the election. there is a scenario by which the court resolves the case very quickly, very soon after the april 22nd oral argument, that judge chutkan sets the case for trial, 88 days for then, that would put us into later summer and early fall, and tried expeditiously by the counsel is

resolved by election day. that's getting difficult to predict, perhaps unlikely, but there is still a scenario by which the case is resolved. and i do think there's a paramount public interest in having this case finally see its day in court. government presents its case, the defendant entitled to his presumption of innocence, that has the potential to move beyond what the select committee did or what journalists or anybody else do in credibility of finding. >> could there be something in the d.c. court ruling that blew donald trump's argument of immunity out of the water? could there be something in that very long decision that the supreme court doesn't entirely agree with? maybe they want to draw a finer line to say there are some instances when the president is using his decision making ability in a tough situation, maybe it's a drone strike somewhere, where they should enjoy a certain level of immunity? >> yeah, look, the court, there probably are justices on the court who take issue with some

or all of the d.c. circuit opinion, right, the grant of cert suggests that at least there is some potential controversial on the supreme court that would call into question the d.c. circuit's really careful, really thorough opinion. i don't think there's any chance that president trump wins this case at the supreme court. responsible lawyers here, kind of universally, have handicapped this as a strong case for the special counsel. whether there's a justice or two that wants to narrow the standard or dissents from a majority finding of affirm of the d.c. circuit, there's a chance for that. i think this case is headed for a criminal trial without the president being granted blanket immunity. >> are you confident they're going to hand down a decision by june, they're not just going to sit on it until the next term? >> you can't be entirely confident about anything with the supreme court. it's a bit of a black box. i think the fact that they issued an expedited briefing

schedule demonstrates they are mindful of the need for prompt resolution. i think at the latest, we would see an opinion around the end of the term, july 1st. i think there's a decent chance they will issue an opinion in the case soon after the april 22nd oral argument given the urgency of getting this case for trial. it's paramount for america that these allegations are tried in a federal criminal proceeding and i hope that judges believing in the rule of law see that and facilitate that by resolving this as quickly as possible. >> is there any world, laura, where these justices or enough of these justices say, i think a president does enjoy immunity. i think a president can have seal team 6 assassinate a political rival because that will get taken care of at the congressional level, they will get impeached, convicted, as trump's lawyers were trying to argue with the impeachment laws.

>> is there a possibility on this court, 100%, is it what i think they will do. not necessarily. i think that your point is well taken. they took it up for a reason. whether it's because there are so many other issues that this touches on that they want to resolve it once and for all. we're talking about the president of the united states. >> -- >> do they want to be ruling on a foundational immunity. they want to say the supreme court says a president is not immune or is immune. >> i do think to your point, katy, there is a possibility that they will decide this in a way that trump walks away not immune from prosecution but that they set a rule that is not a mirror image of the d.c. circuit's rule. what makes me say that? the way that the question presented is framed. it's whether and if so, to what extent a former president enjoys immunity from criminal prosecution. >> that's in the grant of

certiorari. >> in that grant, the supreme court always decides what questions are going to be resolved by its cases. they're called questions presented. this case has won. and again, it starts with that weather, and if so, to what extent a former president enjoys immunity from criminal prosecution. that if so to what extent suggests to me that they are struggling with something that is less than a categorical rule and that there are some votes there for something that is less than a categorical rule. >> until they decide this, does this pause mar-a-lago. >> she has a scheduling conflict, judge aileen cannon of the federal district court, she has a scheduling conference tomorrow. everybody assumes her may 20th trial date is not a fix one. but instead of setting a trial date tomorrow, could she say as long as immunity is up on appeal, immunity means the right to be free from the burden of trial itself, i'm going to stay

this case because it is unfair to put the burden on the former president to have to litigate other issues if he's going to be immune. absolutely. >> once again, raising the prospect that the new york hush money case about the falseification of business records at the end of the day seems like it is dramatically, just shot up in the stakes and importance. >> this would not be covered by immunity. this was not while he was president. what about georgia. >> to some extent, remember, the actual payment, the conduct, the falsification, the alleged falsification is while he's in the white house. the idea conceived during the campaign. what he's actually doing, like the whole, like, act, is actually while he's in the white house. >> so that's under question now as well? >> they waived immunity in that case, and so that can't be litigated. >> but if the supreme court decides he is immune, that would be wiped out? >> no, because, again, trump

initially made a presidential immunity claim in the new york case for reasons that are too detailed to go into. he has waived that issue. it's not something that can be decided now. he's going to face trial. >> does it affect georgia? >> yes. i'm getting the got to get going in my ear. >> we can talk about georgia tomorrow. we've got a lot of georgia happening tomorrow. stay tuned for that. thank you very much. and we have also some breaking news from capitol hill. republicans have chosen alabama senator katie brit to deliver the party's response to president biden's state of the union address next thursday. she has endorsed donald trump for president in 2024 and the first woman to be elected to the u.s. senate from her state. the only republican mom in the u.s. senate with school-aged children and the youngest republican woman ever elected to the senate. her response is coming as alabama deals with the controversy surrounding its supreme court's ivf decision that embryos are children. coming up next, abortion rights,

voting rights, gun rights, discrimination rights and immunity, the supreme court has largely delivered on donald trump's agenda, what the court could look like if donald trump wins in november. plus, donald trump and president biden are both at the border. what they're doing and saying today about how to fix the crisis. we are back in 60 seconds. crisis we are back in 60 seconds. era. and i wanted to hide from the world. for years, i thought my t.e.d. was beyond help... but then i asked my doctor about tepezza. (vo) tepezza is the only medicine that treats t.e.d. at the source not just the symptoms. in a clinical study more than 8 out of 10 patients taking tepezza had less eye bulging. tepezza is an infusion and may cause infusion reactions. tell your doctor right away if you experience high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, shortness of breath or muscle pain. before treatment, tell your doctor if you have diabetes, ibd, or are pregnant, or planning to become pregnant. tepezza may raise blood sugar and may worsen ibd.

tepezza may cause severe hearing problems which may be permanent. (bridget) now, i'm ready to be seen again. (vo) visit mytepezza.com to find a ted eye specialist and to see bridget's before and after photos. donald trump said the supreme court gave him a miracle when it topped dobbs and ended the constitutional right to an abortion. he praised the court's ruling on affirmative action as a great day for america, and when he promised to expand gun rights nationwide, the court followed suit. controversial decisions that have continued to erode public trust in the high court, decisions that were not widely popular. in 2022, 58% said they disapproved of the court. up 5% from just the year before. last september, americans said

the same, again, 58% disapproving. the court is not blind to this. justices have come out publicly and tried to assuage the concern, and according to multiple reports, they have raised it privately as well. seeming to understand there may come a point of no return. joining us now, senior writer for slate who covers the supreme court, mark joseph stern. it's been a series of decisions from this particular court that have gone against popular public opinion, specifically on abortion rights, on voting rights, things that americans say they don't want touched. >> so i think that's obviously correct, and yet at the same time, i really think it's important to remember it could get so much worse. in conservative legal circles, justices barrett, kavanaugh and gorsuch, trump's three appointees in his first term are widely viewed as kind of mushy,

if not outright flops. each in different areas has failed to deliver on trump's agenda. on the campaign trail, we had ron desantis saying i want alito and thomas. even though the decisions seem unpopular outside the mainstream and quite radical, it's really just a taste of what's to come if trump gets to replace even just one of the current liberals on the supreme court in a second term. >> so what else would be at stake here? what else could we see changed? >> so, look, we could run down the line. even less leeway for gun control. broader protections for religious liberty that would allow or mandate state funding of discrimination. i think one really important point that doesn't get discussed enough is fetal personhood, presented to the supreme court in dobbs.

only one justice in that majority in dobbs went out of his way to reject the idea that fetuses have equal protection. the other four were silent on that issue, and frankly, justice alito's majority opinion had a lot of language that hinted that he was at least curious about the possibility that states had a constitutional requirement to limit or ban abortion. that is top of agenda for conservative lawyers in a second trump term, and it's the kind of thing that's hard to grasp, if you haven't really kind of dug into both the legal and theological underpinnings, but it is emerging into the legal mainstream very quickly. >> what about guy marriage? >> absolutely on the chopping block, and i think lgbtq rights broadly are very clearly imperilled. the supreme court will soon decide whether states are permitted to outlaw, criminalize gender affirming care not only for minors but for adults. i think there's a good chance the court will uphold those

bans. it is in play with roberts and gorsuch sometimes siding with trans litigants. imagine trump replaces sotomayor or kagan with another alito type, all protections for lgbtq people fall away, not just transgender right, but marriage equality, the right to engage in same-sex intimacy. the right to live as an equal citizen as an lgbtq person, all of that would be under assault, and i'll note, katy, there are a lot of states that have refused to repeal their bans on sodomy. if the supreme court overrules pro gay precedents, those sodomy bans leap in force and thousands become criminals overnight. >> what about contrceptives? >> probably the easiest one.

i think this supreme court would allow bans on iuds and plan b, deemed abort afacientes, there's medication abortion, abortion bills. i have been paying attention to the briefs filed by antiabortion groups. they are not just talking about abortion pills. they are talking about contraception, not just plan b but regular old daily contraception, they are arguing that those actually have the effect of terminating human life and arguing that this supreme court should take a step beyond abortion pills and start imposing legal limited by judicial fiat, on women's ability to access just basic birth control. it's all on the chopping block, and of course, you know, the republican party knows they can't enact most of this stuff in the democratic process. that's why you just get a judge through, 51 votes in the senate. you don't have the filibuster, and they can do whatever they want for life from the bench.

>> if it's that dire, i wonder what it must be like behind closed doors at the supreme court. you're talking about decisions that would remake this country, like truly remake this country. and if there are people on the court that want that to take place, what's it like behind the scenes? i'm assuming that there are also some people on the court who are vehemently opposed to that. >> so, look, i think that the three liberal justices are always trying to calculate to scold their colleagues, you need to pull back, this is unbearable. nonconstitutional. but also at the same time, curry favor with them. we saw amy coney barrett, and sonia sotomayor, she has been trying to win over amy barrett from day one. sonia sotomayor was the first to

call barrett. the liberals are trying all that they can to try to get these conservatives to show a sign of moderation. i don't know that's it's succeeding. if i were sonia sotomayor, i would be considering retirement, we know she has medical issues. she's not a young person. if she wants the seat to remain in liberal hands, that's the way to do it. >> thank you very much. the supreme court's decision that no doubt helps donald trump's legal strategy, delay, delay, delay, does a delay help him politically, and we are awaiting president biden at the southern border. trump is about to land too. i think he's probably just landed. there he is. what they're both saying on immigration. don't go anywhere. n. don't go anywhere.

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donald trump and president biden are both at the mexico border right now, and while they're both there to highlight the problem of illegal immigration, they don't agree on who's to blame. joining us now is nbc correspondent, dasha burns. tell us what we'll be seeing. >> reporter: today is about contrast and about message for both president biden and former president trump. we just saw trump's motorcade pass by here. he's in eagle pass, texas. meanwhile, biden is in brownsville, some couple hundred miles from here. some have criticized biden for going to brownsville. while that town has been dealing with immigration for many many

years now, the immigration numbers there are actually down, whereas they're up in eagle pass. and in california and arizona. biden is here to say, look, we know this is a critical issue. the polls have shown it, the white house knows it. he's here to show he is taking action, and he's going to be highlighting the fact that he helped negotiate a bipartisan border deal that even border patrol supports and agrees with, and it was former president trump, he's going to point the finger directly at him who helped tank those negotiations, helped tank that bill. former president trump is going to be here. he's going to contrast his record on immigration during his first term against that of president biden. he'll be meeting with the national guard. he was last here in november when he accepted the endorsement of governor abbott. and eagle pass, katy, is a critical backdrop. this has been the epicenter between the fight between

federal and state power whrks it -- when it comes to immigration enforcement. governor abbott installed razor wire. the buoys with the razor wire on top in the rio grande, and trump is going to tout what he's done and say biden has not done enough. >> thank you very much. what an attack on dozens of palestinians waiting for aid might do to ongoing negotiations for a cease fire. and what does the supreme court's decision to take up immunity do to 2024? the vote specifically. does it galvanize some people? and if so, who? this is juana's smile. ♪♪ and this is her john deere 1 series tractor. it's handles the heavy lifting, ♪♪ breaks new ground, ♪♪ and most importantly, puts her at ease. you just have to get in the seat.

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now that it seems unlikely that jack smith will get to try donald trump for election interference before the next election, what do voters take into consideration, specifically the ones who have told pollsters they wouldn't vote for somebody who has been convicted of a crime. joining us now, nbc correspondent garrett haake, and "new york times" chief white house correspondent and msnbc political analyst, peter baker. how does the trump team see this calculation? there are those voters out there, that chunk of voters that have said they would be uncomfortable or unlikely to vote for somebody who was convict snd. >> -- convicted. >> i think there's a couple of caveats. it's hard to pull a hypothetical. it depends a lot on the if and

when it happens, and what we're even talking about here. a conviction on something like trying to steal an election, which is functionally what donald trump is charged with as it relates to the jack smith case is very different from a conviction on falsifying business records in new york state for, you know, trying to cover up an alleged affair, something that voters have known about for, i guess, pushing eight years now. so there's a lot of leeway in this. i think broadly speaking, the trump campaign feels very good about the fact that they were unlikely to see the jack smith election interference case go to trial, and if there's anything that goes in front of the voters, it will be the new york case which they think they can dismiss as ancillary, not important to voters lies and the kind of thing voters baked in when they voted for him the last two times he ran for president. politically speaking, this is a victory for them, regardless of what the supreme court ultimately decides or when. >> i wonder, do the democrats see it the same way or do they

see this as another galvanizing issue for their voters, peter. >> i think they wanted to see a verdict before the election. they wanted to see the country, to see the evidence that was going to be presented and recognize the stakes involved in electing, again, a president who tried to overturn an election, through what the prosecutors say are criminal means. without that verdict, it's that much less they have to work with. as garrett said, a lot of this baked in. a lot of those troubled by this are going to vote for, depending on how they're inclined. it's possible a lot of people wouldn't change their minds, who have decided the prosecution is illegitimate or political. the idea of a trial playing out these issues in realtime over weeks, you know, would have had a real effect. it's still possible you can see a trial in the fall. that would be even more, you know, extraordinary, right. it's possible the supreme court makes a decision by the end of june, and the trial could go forward in september, right in

the thick of the campaign, which would be unheard of. you know, it's very also possible we don't see this until after the election. >> we're talking about abortion, there's the alabama ruling, there's what could happen next, if donald trump is elected and is able to appoint yet another justice, mark joseph stern, talking about the possibilities there. they sound pretty extreme. but i guess they're out there. peter, how does the white house use that threat? have they been adequately, not adequately, have they been trying to not just say abortion is clearly already at issue but more rights could be vulnerable as well? >> yeah, i think this is one of the three legs of the biden strategy here, which is talk about reproductive rights and other rights that could be at stake with the court, given that dobbs decision and the logic that goes into the dobbs decision, and add on the economy and the issue of democracy, those are the three legs of strategy. you hear president biden talk about this all the time. he's kind of uncomfortable

talking about abortion rights. liberals are upset about him not being forthright about it. when he does talk about it, he talks about it in the larger sense of freedoms that he sees being at risk, including things we talked about in the previous segment, like same-sex marriage, like contraceptives and so on and so forth. the ivf decision in alabama obviously played right into that conversation, and democrats look at that issue and see that as a political winner because every time abortion rights have been on the ballot as a stand alone issue, a constitutional amendment or something like that, it is won. even in red states. had they translated the candidates is a little different. that's a winning issue as far as the democrats are concerned. >> on the issue of the ivf, we talked about this yesterday, i would like to add to it, garrett, republican lawmakers say they are for ivf, not willing to go far enough to say we're going to protect it federally. shooting down the proposal, the bill. >> this is an issue which republicans have been tripping over themselves, and it goes

back to the dobbs decision to overturn roe, where republicans have all of a sudden been faced with these follow on questions that perhaps they have never examined in terms of what the actual public policy element this would be, and the ripple effects there could be. the ivf decision in alabama is a great example of that, where republicans did block a unanimous consent request just yesterday to protect ivf access across the country. there's not a coherent position, talking points from the rnc and party committees on down, including from donald trump, they will protect ivf. no one has fleshed out what exactly that looks like in a legislative sense. i would surprised if they do before the fall. >> garrett haake, peter baker, gentlemen, thank you very much. what makes tens of millions of people city still think the 2020 election was stolen with no proof. what we know about a deadly attack on palestinians waiting for aid and the impact it could have on cease fire negotiations. .

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we know for sure. shortly before 4:00 a.m. this morning, crowds of palestinians gathered on al rasheed street, the coastal road in gaza city, and they were waiting for aid trucks to arrive with food and with flour. now, one eyewitness tells nbc news that part of that crowd was near an israeli check point, and that israeli forces started firing at the crowd. and they continued firing later on as those aid trucks arrived, as the crowd surged around those aid trucks. you can see on your screen there, footage from the israeli military of that crowd around the aid trucks. but the idf is giving a different story. they are saying most of the people who died today died in the stampede in the crush around those trucks, and they say they only opened fire later on at a specific group of people who approached that check point. now, i asked the israeli military, do you have any

evidence to support your claim that that group of people were a threat to israeli forces. any drone footage, any video. they said they did not. they said they fired warning shots at that group, and when people did not disburse, they then used live rounds. now, this bloody incident, putting the death toll past the grim milestone, 30,000 dead, according to the health ministry, and president biden speaking at the white house says he fears this will only complicate what were already very difficult negotiations to try to get a cease fire in place before the start of ramadan next week. he says he is still hopeful a deal can be done. he is walking back his initial sort of rosy optimistic assessment that a deal could be in place by this coming monday. if there is any optimism to be had here, katy, it is that the last cease fire deal in november

was also negotiated during a period of intense bloodshed in gaza, but this is a much bigger and much more complicated deal. >> raf sanchez, thank you very much. and joining us now, israeli government spokesperson alon levy, thank you for being here with us. >> thank you, katy. i have two things i want to talk about. one is the cease fire and the hostages, the other is what we saw there. let me start with cease fire. how close is there -- are the israelis and hamas to a deal? >> there isn't going to be a cease fire that leaves the hostages in gaza or hamas in power. that is how the war is going to end with the hostages home, and hamas removed from power. what we want to see is a temporary pause in the fighting that will enable us to get hostages out. that was what happened on the previous occasion, we had a pause in the fighting. got 105 hostages out. 10 plus more foreigners and exchange for every day pause in the fighting. that's what we want to see. that's what we're pushing for by putting more military pressure on hamas.

unfortunately now hamas has been making delusional demands, it hasn't passed on the names of the hostages that would be released in the frame work. that's something we're expecting to receiving and we're continuing to put pressure on hamas. hopefully we'll have good news. nothing is final. >> are you as hopeful as the president. >> we know what's happening to them, the starvation, the execution, the survivors who have come back and spoken about hostages who were sexually abused at gunpoint. we know there's no time left to get them out, and we hope that the continued application of military pressure together with diplomatic input from our allies in the world will help to get these hostages out. 134 there. 33 we know are already dead. time has run out for them. >> ramadan is approaching. are you concerned about fighting during ramadan and the way that might further inflame tensions in the region? >> we would want to see this war over as soon as possible, and it

will end when hamas either surrenders or is defeated. now of course wars during ramadan are not new in the middle east. let's remember the 1973 war, the yom kippur war, began when egypt and syria invaded israel on ramadan. it has to end with the hostages home and hamas removed from power. anyone concerned for the civilian population and humanitarian situation in gaza should be pressuring hamas to release the hostages and surrender so the fighting can end. >> let me talk about what we saw today near gaza city. i'm going to take the idf's word and say they fired on a crowd who was threatening them approaching, if you take their word for it, doesn't that only prove the sheer desperation, the amount of people who are desperate for food in that region, in the strip of land, and if that's what it shows, why isn't there more of an effort to make sure people don't starve to death on top of the violence?

>> my heart really goes out to the individuals who were crushed in the stampede, and run over when the truck drivers tried to escape, and they were ran over. my heart goes out to civilians who know and see hamas is hi jacking aids, and the u.n. agencies who have said nothing about the terrorists stealing aid. let's look at what we have done to facilitate aid. there's excess capacity for more aid to enter. we can facilitate as much, but the drops as well. the problem is that the u.n. is at the pace of entry. aid is piling up not only israeli side of the crossings, but on the gaza side of the crossings. >> can israel not do more to distribute the aid? >> we're working together with international partners in the

convoy was the fourth this week. going on finding new ways to deliver aid into northern gaza. this convoy was part of a private contract with the private sector to try to get aid in. the problem until now, aid has been distributed through unrwa. that's an agency that was working as a hamas front riddle ld with terrorists, covering up for hamas trying to steal the aid. so we're trying to find new ways in an impossibly challenging environment to make sure that the civilian who is need aid can get it and hamas cannot steal it. >> there are accusations. i tonight know if everybody is on board saying it was riddled with -- >> there are many trying to cover this up. >> it's good to have you. thank you very much. coming up next, what an epidemic of disinformation is doing to make society more polarized than ever and how it could impact the elections. d tht could impact the elections efficiencies, and greater agility.

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2024, what lessons is are we learned since november 202037 joining us now is legal analyst barbara mcquaid who wrote a book about it, how disinformation is sabotaging america. good to have you. the book is i would say bleak. it's scary for this moment that we're in. when you're looking at where we were and what happened in 2020 that led to 2021 and january 6, what lessons have we learned? have we learned any of those lessons? >> i think we have. and although it certainly has parts that are bleak, i also think it's mostly a hopeful book and a book that will encourage people to demand truth out of a sense of pate terrorism. so as we prepare for the 2024 election, i think we can expect that we will be bombarded with disinformation. this time around we may even have video and robocalls that

sound like people in positions of authority who are telling us to stay home and not to vote. but i think that because we know what to expect, we can have good messaging ready to go about this. for example, i know secretaries of state around the country are putting together materials to provide information to voters about what the truth is so they are not concerns in cob fusion about how they vote. also, looking to enlist credible voices to help people to understand what they need to do to vote and to registered to vote. those things are important to debunking the false information and prebunking it so they can get ahead of the curve. >> when i say bleakly, you're starting off by talking about january 6th. you're starting off by talking about the people who i.edu on january 6th who drove them to be there, this disinformation campaign and the information that still exists in our ecosystem that still is pulling us apart and sending down rabbit

holes and making us mistrust what we're seeing with our own eyes in favor of what makes us feel better, what confirms our own biases. it can feel overwhelming when you take all that in. but i guess what you're trying to do here is you're saying, here's all this out there. you have to understand the landscape in order to navigate within it. is that the lesson? >> yes, what i'm hoping is that by revealing some of these tactics that are used by people who propagate disinformation, we can learn them, dispel them and avoid being attacked by them. so for example, we know that there will be people who repeat false claims about the stolen election in 2020. just is this weekend at the cp a, c conference there was a chant of "trump won." if we can provide people with the data and information that's

not true, then perhaps we can avoid having a repetition of that in the future. i think if we reveal to people the way they used it, the techniques as the either/or fall us is, this idea that there are only two sides to every issue, and then to demonize the other side and say,er they are such an untenable choice that you'll conclude the only choice is the other side. and in fact, the world is far more nuanced than that. there are shades of gray. if we can detect when people are using these tactics against us, we can build some rejill sense so we'll be less likely to fall prey. >> are we going to be resilient in '24. >> i think so. i hope people will read my book and will learn ubsing the enemy's playbook. and people of america think that. >> it's great to have you. thank you very much. congratulations on the book.

it's a hard in the sense that we have been through so much, but it's a necessary read. disinformation is sabotaging america. thank you. and before i go, a reminder that you can catch me and former senator claire mccaskill tonight at 8:00 p.m. at the y here in new york city for a discussion about the upcoming election. obviously, there's a lot to talk about, especially right now. there's still a few tickets left. you can also watch online it you're not here in new york city. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. 4:00 in new york. americans woke up today in a nation for the highest court in the land is not out of the closet.