the tides are turning a little bit for them, and that leaning into this issue, you heard souzzi give the advice to biden yesterday, you cannot shy away from it. you have to lean in. that's how you have to handling this issue in 2024. >> white house reporter for "politico," one of the best in the business when it comes to immigration policy, myah ward. thank you. really do appreciate you waking up this early. and thank you for getting up "way too early" with us on this friday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. we continue to monitor this. just one thing i wanted to add because when you hear it, and you heard it from donald trump, about the 2020 election and got millions more votes, though he still lost the election, that is not in doubt anymore. that's not being debated anymore. >> fox news host neil cavuto with another fact check on donald trump. this time about his election loss in 2020. both trump and president biden -- >> i just wonder, though,

willie, what do fox news viewers who are lied to with great regularity on some of these issues, what do they think when neil cavuto is there going, "yeah, no, none of that is right"? >> yeah. >> fact checking. >> i was smiling because you can hear the lawyers for fox news in the anchor's ear, 787 million. the hit they took for lying about certain elements of the election. he's telling the truth. it is a verifiable, objective truth that a lot of people still reject. neil cavuto says there's no doubt about it anymore, but, sadly, there is doubt in american's minds because of the lies they've been fed for all of these years. >> yeah, for so many years. majority, actually, of republicans believe the lies that are spread by chinese religious cults and,

unfortunately, by networks of america and politicians, too. you know, we showed very briefly that clip of biden going to the border. we heard at the end of "way too early" that there's a belief, tom suozzi believes, hey, he won on long island by leaning into the issue. that reminds me time and time again, willie, whenever you think -- you know, when people are telling you you have to run away from an issue because it may be dangerous, that's when you run straight into it. i mean, long time ago, we republicans had to slow down the rate of growth in medicare because the medicare trustees said it was going bankrupt. of course, you know, everybody said that we slashed medicare. we threw grandma out on the street. i was asked about it my first campaign event, which is unfortunately at a retirement home, and the debate, and i got

attacked by the democrat. i said, okay, you know what? i'm going to make this entire campaign about medicare. i've told this story before. you would think that that would hurt me with senior citizens. i actually, you know, had the highest approval rating among senior citizens at the end of that campaign for, like, 150 district that is, you know, upholster glen bolger, republican opinion strategies polled. i ran into what was supposed to be my weakness. my opponent, my friends that were scared of it got crushed. but i ran into it. yesterday at the border, you had joe biden doing something that tom suozzi did, that every democrat in america needs to do. they need to run straight into this issue of southern border security like joe biden did

yesterday. because republicans have screwed it up. they could have had an issue, but they've screwed it up. i thought yesterday illustrated perfectly the difference between biden and trump at the border. biden actually asking trump, "help me out here." >> yeah. yeah, that was an extraordinary bank shot that the president pulled. not just going to the border and recogniing exactly what you're saying. it's that maybe he's fallen into it backwards because of the help of the republicans, but he's got an issue now that he can say, "guys, i do want to fix this. in fact, we helped push along this bipartisan legislation in the senate. why aren't you taking it up?" the bank shot now, as you point out, joe, is saying, "donald trump, this issue is too important. what do you say you and me work together on this? join me. together, we can fix this problem." that moment alone speaks to how this issue has shifted in the favor of joe biden. i mean, it certainly wasn't for a long time. it was one of his great weaknesses.

now, with that assist from house republicans, he can, as you say, run on this. >> he really can. and you look with who joe biden is with. he's with border security agents who begged republicans to pass the bill. >> even more importantly, both president trump and biden were there at the same time, so you really get a split screen at not just their messages but their approach to this and the fact that the republicans passed on it. donald trump is trying to steal thunder on something that he told his people, his minions in congress, to pass on so he could have it later, after he runs, so it doesn't hurt his campaign. the messages to voters were very different, starkly different. also ahead, we're going to bring you the latest from gaza after more than 100 people were killed while trying to get access to food and other desperately needed aid. plus, we'll go through some of hunter biden's testimony on

capitol hill. did you hear about this? new transcripts are giving a better idea of what was said behind closed doors. >> once again, brutal, brutal. despite having the best legal counsel in washington, d.c., arnold the pig. brutal once again for comer and his committee. it really was bad, man. >> this is why they wanted it behind closed doors. >> yeah. >> you know, i think we're going to have some transcripts from it, but nothing -- again, a big nothing burger. on top of it, quite frankly, people were chuckling in the room because it was so stupid. >> at one point, abby lowell, hunter's attorney, said, "if the record can reflect, everybody in the room is laughing at you," talking to the republicans. >> yeah, he wanted that recorded

for history. by the way, you've done more, joe, in the last few weeks for the legacy of "green acres" than anyone in the history of pop culture. >> i know. >> i mean, just to bring arnold the pig and that entire show back to the nation, to a new generation, really, of viewers. they ought to cut you syndication cuts. >> generations. >> they should. i mean, between arnold the pig, mr. ed. >> oh, mr. ed. >> the monkeys on the super bowl commercial that were turning the charts upside down. >> i love mr. ed. >> there have been great contributions throughout tv history. >> yes. >> by the way, i think the chimp ad may have been my favorite super bowl ad. >> it was a good one. >> wasn't it? >> we digress, it is friday, right, guys? >> what a pitch, joe, for "green acres" to cbs in '64. here's what we're thinking. the pig is treated like a member of the family. he is a son. he goes to school. he has a backpack. we really like it and hope you do, too. the rest is history. yes, mika, we digress.

>> by the way, the pig is the smartest person. >> oh, my gosh. >> cbs is like, we'll take it! whoever believed in east coast elitism? >> exactly. >> we'll take it. along with joe, willie, and me, we have msnbc contributor mike barnicle is with us. deputy managing editor for politics at "politico," sam stein. and former supreme allies commander of nato, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. >> who is asking, why in the hell am i here? i'm sure he liked "green acres," too. also chief international analyst for nbc news. >> let's get -- >> we have to take a serious turn here. >> we do. we want to get right to the news. right now, the funeral for russian opposition leader alexei navalny is under way in moscow. navalny died in a russian penal colony on february 16th. his mother then spent eight days trying to get authorities to release his body.

it was finally granted after she made a video appeal to president vladimir putin. now, the family says, the kremlin is trying to block a public funeral, and some are worried the services will be disrupted. a heavy police presence can be seen outside the church and seminary where navalny will be buried. joining us from london is nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. keir, even people who were laying flowers or trying to pay respects in the wake of navalny's death were arrested. what's expected today? >> well, as we speak, mika, the funeral is getting under way. alexei navalny's body has arrived at the church, according to his supporters. what we're seeing there in moscow are scenes that, in the u.s., would be considered ordinary, and in today's russia, are extraordinary. so organizers say that more than

1,000 people have arrived outside the church. just think about the bravery of each one of those people. if they are arrested, that legal case can result in a fine or could be escalated, we estimate, to anything up to 15 years in jail. each one of those risking that to stand and pay respects, last respects, to alexei navalny. also in the church, ambassadors arriving, including the u.s. ambassador. we also have seen in the crowd families of other jailed opposition leaders. boris, one of those who says he wants to stand against president putin in the election in a few weeks' time and has been, frankly, banned from standing,

the russian counsel deciding he is not eligible for various reasons. so all of this is happening in the context of president putin standing for election and, of course, will be elected in a few weeks' time. alexei navalny's wife, yulia, we don't know where she is. she obviously has been outside of russia. she won't be there because she has refused to be silenced. she has been speaking out this week, describing her husband's death, that he was killed by president putin. this funeral, this extraordinary funeral, is under way right now. there are reports that there is a lack of mobile coverage, that that's been silenced. even as the people there have refused to be. alexei navalny's team, mika, are

running a live broadcast with commentators from his team, live on air, showing pictures. there is a global street to get the message out. what a juxtaposition, a contrast. yesterday, we saw president put within a federal address to the nation, broadcast on huge screens in moscow. now, we have this funeral today broadcast on a livestream around the world. >> trying to silence him to the end. spotty. you can see it in our images, the images are breaking up a little bit. difficult to see in some places. i guess my question to you, keir, as mika pointed out, the very act of laying flowers at a memorial for navalny got people arrested. it is hard to gauge how much support he has. by support for him, it also implies criticism of vladimir putin because it is a crime, effectively, to do such a thing. what is your sense, covering russia so closely for all these

years, of the level of sympathy for alexei navalny and his cause within russia? >> look, we've said it many times, willie, right? there are many russians who are sympathetic. there are also many russians who support president putin. not least because they think that president putin hold russia out of the chaos of the 1990s and they still remember that. they're grateful if you like. but let me answer your question a different way, if you like. how much of a threat did alexei navalny pose? i suppose you can say, does alexei navalny pose to the kremlin in the kremlin's own eyes? peskov, the kremlin spokesman, was asked whether he now had anything to say to alexei navalny's family. he says, i'll quote this, "the kremlin doesn't have anything to say to navalny's family on the day of his funeral."

when i interview president putin, you know, some years ago now, and it happens again and again whenever he's asked about want to say his name. the danger for the kremlin himself, you'll see, is you now have his widow, yulia, traveling around the world, giving these speeches, taking up the mantle, if you like. so the reason why they will be concerned with this funeral today is because they will be concerned, let's put it this way, that alexei navalny hasn't been turned into effectively a martyr. >> admiral stavridis, these are certainly epic times in terms of global history. what would your assessment be of the role of the united states right now, given vladimir putin's role in his own country

in containing potential disruptions because of loyalty to navalny and his running of the war in ukraine and not saber rattling about nuclear war, nuclear weapons? that's on one section of the united states side, the right-hand section. in the middle, we have ukraine, a war that seems to be badly in need of reinforcements, yet one political party refuses to give help to ukraine, virtually recreating 1937 to 1939. moving further west, you have a war raging in the middle east, and you've got bibi netanyahu, vladimir putin. talk about the degree of difficulty diplomatically and militarily for the united states right now. >> obviously and hopefully --

yeah. mike, obviously having trouble with the admiral's sound. we will check on that and get back to the admiral as soon as we can. admiral, i think we turned the on button switch on. >> mute. >> took off the mute. >> there we go. >> go ahead, if you have a chance, if you can, and answer mike's question. >> indeed. on a scale of zero to ten, we're at a 12 and trending up in terms of degree of difficulty. if you look back, the other moment you can kind of point to, and mike mentioned it, is the late '30s when you kind of see the international system, if you will, pulling apart. you feel the center isn't going to hold, to steal a line from william butler yates, the irish poet. what i feel is crucial for the united states at this moment is to be that center.

and so the way mike categorized it, you see russia, this malevolent force, moving and pressing against our european partners. you see real chaos unfolding in the middle east. iran being the driver behind that. and you see back here in washington, d.c., we were talking about split screen on the border, talking about a split screen of navalny's funeral. this great heart, this unbelievably courageous patriot of his country. and the other screen is in washington, d.c., where republicans, let's be frank, are holding up aid that desperately needs to get to ukraine in order to make that center hold. so overall, unbelievably challenging moment for the united states. we have got to maintain that center. otherwise, events are going to continue to spin. >> all right. our thanks to nbc's keir simmons for his reporting.

now to the border. president joe biden and former president donald trump both visited texas towns along the southern border yesterday. in brownsville, biden met with local officials and called for compromise after congressional republicans torpedoed a border security bill last month at the direction of trump. meanwhile, in eagle pass, the former president blamed democrats for the migrant crisis. >> i understand my predecessor is in eagle pass today, so here's what i would say to mr. trump, join me, or i'll join you, in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan border security bill. we can do it together. >> the united states is being overrun by the biden migrant crime. it's a new form of vicious violation to our country. >> there's no red state or blue state where i come from. it's just communities and families looking for help.

>> this governor newscum from california, isn't that his name? what he is doing to california is unbelievable. >> instead of playing politics with the issue, let's get together and get it done. >> but this is a joe biden invasion. horrible. crooked joe is the blood of thousands of citizen victims. >> compromise in the process. that's how democracy works. >> we did much better in 2020 than we thought about doing in 2016 and very bad things happened. >> we work for the american people, not the democratic party, the republican party. we work for the american people. >> wow. >> first of all, donald trump can't even speak in complete sentences. >> when he does, he's lying. >> he's throwing out taunts about governors. again, like he is a child, like he is a 5-year-old. i guess, i don't know, people that vote for him like petulant little brats. i don't know why. they don't let their kids act like petulant little brats but

because they want a petulant little brat. then he says things were better in 2020 than 2016. as we said, it is a complete lie. illegal border crossings were at a 50 year low under barack obama and joe biden in 2016. when donald trump got into office, that's when the border crisis really exploded. >> yeah. again, donald trump is no longer a blank slate. this is not 2016. if there is a crisis at the border, he had four years as president to do something about it. he controlled washington for the first two years, both houses of congress. didn't build the wall he promised, didn't do any of these things, which speaks to the idea that, of course, he wants to keep this issue alive, wants to keep it up in the air. that is why he has directed his lieutenants in the house of representatives not to sign onto this bipartisan legislation. if they do, it gets at the problem. it begins to resolve. it gets better.

he believes that works in the favor of joe biden. we saw it again yesterday, the contrasting styles. one man who now actually wants to work with republicans to get something done on the border. one man who wants to keep an issue alive. let's go down there right now to white house reporter for "the washington post," yasmeen, who is in brownsville, texas, covering biden's visit. good morning to you. what'd you see yesterday on the ground? does the white house believe now this is an issue they can run on, something perceived as a weakness for joe biden? >> i think at the very least, the white house is hoping to blunt the attacks from republicans. polls show that this is a pretty big weakness for president biden. people overwhelmingly trust trump versus president biden on the issue. president biden felt like he's found an opening to not just evade the issue but to try to run on it and go on the offensive. i think that's what you saw,

both biden and trump doing yesterday, is trying to take control of the issue. obviously, trump was, you know, calling it a biden migrant invasion and hurling his usual insults. biden was trying to strike this tone and make it clear, because at one point in his remarks, he said, let me be very clear about what happened. the united states senate was ready to pass this, and then someone said, "don't do this because it'd benefit the incumbent." you've seen him in recent weeks, one, toughening his rhetoric significantly on immigration, willing to take these measures and talk about things, and, two, i think to try to remind people that he was willing and eager to sign tough measures into law and that republicans had agreed to them. they'd demanded some form of border security package as part of the more than $100 billion national security supplemental. then they decided not to support it because trump said not to. i think trump called it a gift

to the radical left democrats. i think biden now is working to remind people of that, that he was ready to sign this and this is why it didn't happen. >> yasmeen, sam stein here. it's one thing to go to the border, try to create this contrast and produce a contrast, as we just saw. it is another to go ahead and issue executive actions to deal with the migrant crisis. one of the things the white house is considering are some executive actions that, frankly, objectively, would mirror, although it wouldn't duplicate, approaches that trump himself took when he was in office. wondering if you could unpack what the white house is thinking there, and if they do risk any sort of backlash from the progressive community over adopting that type of policy posture. >> yeah, it's a great point. they definitely risk a lot of backlash from the progressive community. already, they've gotten backlash from immigrants rights group and progressives for the border security package put forward. of course, the measures that the white house has floated and have been reported on are very

aggressive measures, sort of blurs the line between trump's immigration policy and biden's immigration policy. democrats, of course, have been quick to note that biden is not talking about separating children from their parents. but, you know, these are much tougher measures than democrats are used to, and there is definitely a risk of alienating the progressive wing of his base. >> all right. "the washington post"'s i can't say -- yasmeen abutaleb, thank you. a report from gaza after the violence that took place there while a crowd was waiting for aid. what it means for cease-fire talks and the biden administration's response to the war. plus, the transcript of hunter biden's deposition with republican lawmakers has been released. we're taking a look at some of the most combative moments from that closed door testimony, and you'll get a sense of why republicans wanted it behind

closed doors. and we expect to see former president trump back in court today as part of his push to delay his classified documents trial in florida. >> it'll probably get pushed back to the year 2525. >> you're watching "morning joe." >> how things are going. >> we'll be right back. with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles to help me out. splurgy tina loves a hotel near rodeo drive. oh tina! wild tina booked a farm stay to ride this horse. glenn close?! with millions of possibilities you can book whoever you want to be. that's my line! booking.com

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at bombas, we're obsessed with comfort. softness. quality. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order. 29 past the hour. the gaza health ministry says more than 100 people were killed while waiting for aid. it happened yesterday morning in the northern part of the enclave where trucks rarely enter. gaza health officials say dozens of people with gunshot wounds were brought to the hospital, but israeli defense forces say

the civilians died in a stampede after thousands of people crowded the aid trucks and tried to loot them. officials released this video yesterday showing that large crowd. the military did admit it opened fire at the other end of the convoy when it says a group approached israeli forces in a threatening manner. official says there were no casualties from that. nbc news has not been able to independently verify the death toll or circumstances surrounding the incident. meanwhile, president biden told reporters yesterday the u.s. is looking into the violence. this as cease-fire negotiations are still going on between israel and hamas. take a listen. >> do you still expect a cease-fire is possible? >> hope springs eternal. i was on the telephone with the people in the region. probably not by monday, but i'm

hopeful. >> what is your reaction to gaza city? more than 100 civilians were killed. >> we're checking that out right now. i don't have an answer yet. >> are you worried this will complicate negotiations? >> i know it will. >> all right. what do you make of how president biden is handling this? what do you think is going on ultimately? >> well, i mean, he's doing what he needs to do. i think a lot of people in the region, and likewise, i think a lot of people in the states, really agree with him and agree with what he's told people close to him, that it is time to take a break, a public break, from bibi netanyahu. to support the people of israel, support their right to defend themselves, support their right to protect their children and their families from hamas. >> and the people of israel are pretty frustrated themselves. >> they are. but to break from bibi netanyahu because, regardless, admiral,

regardless of what happened yesterday, obviously, shooting into a crowd would be much worse. we don't know whether the gazan health ministry run by hamas, we don't know how accurate their counts are because, you know, they are run by hamas. we don't know how accurate claims from the israeli army are either. they're our allies, but you've dealt with them at a time of war and understand that, as well. but it seems to me, admiral, whether it was gunfire, which would be just heinous, or whether it was palestinians so hungry and so desperate for food because of the situation that they literally trampled each other to get food for their families, this is one more devastating blow to israel's reputation across the globe. this is, for the life of me,

what i don't understand. i'm a supporter of israel. don't understand that the scenes that are unfolding in gaza are a generational nightmare for israel across the world and are a very, very immediate human, human tragedy for the people of gaza. this has to end. this has to end. >> indeed. let's start by just understanding what it would feel like to be a parent or a grandparent, as i am, with desperately hungry children. 2.2 million people, half of them under the age of 28. yeah, there are going to be these horrific scenes like this. again, we need to understand the level of crisis that's unfolding in front of our eyes. you know, one of my great life mentors was colin powell. among many other wise things he

would say is, it's the pottery barn rule. you break it, you own it. in other words, military 101 is, if you invade and you subjugate an area, you are now responsible for the food, the medicine, for the care of the civilians. that's bedrock for any military force. so for those of us who have served and remember going into iraq, remember going into afghanistan, you own that civilian population for maintaining it, for its care, its feeding, its medicine. so, israel, you are correct, joe, is suffering immense reputational damage. even military officers like me are kind of shaking our heads at this. it has got to stop. to conclude on this, within the war cabinet that bibi netanyahu

has put together are some very steady hands. notably, former chief of the israeli defense force, benny gantz. they know better. they know this has got to conclude in a way that permits -- >> yeah. >> -- to these families. this is headed in the wrong direction for israel. >> it is horrific for israel. you look at what's happening in the united states. we talked about this. the majority of younger americans 30 and under have openly hostile views of israel and are supportive of the palestinian cause right now. it's gotten much, much worse has this has continued. you look at our allies in europe. i will say right now, most importantly, you look at the arab nations that surround israel and used to invade israel and now want to become israel's allies.

i stay in touch with leaders and diplomats from those countries, and they're all saying the same thing. you know, they've been saying it over the past month. "you have to help israel get past this because we want to come in and help the palestinians." and, let's just say, for the first time in a long time, because the palestinians are despised by arab nations. they just are. they just are. they've been abandoned by arab nations for years now. but these arab nations, our allies, israel's allies, want to come in, rebuild gaza, help the palestinian people, but they tell me, "we're running out of time. this has to stop," or they can't come in. >> yeah, i'm hearing exactly the same thing from very senior people across the region. and the tragedy of this, when we

were talking earlier with mike barnicle about the center holding here, this is where the united states could really step up and bring together all of the parties. you know, we ought to be celebrating right now the alignment of israel and the kingdom of saudi arabia. that was in the works before the events of 7 october. instead, we see the scenes here playing right now. we see the malevolence of iran maneuvering throughout the entire region. the winner in all of this is the iranian theocracy, that rotten set of tehran that are reveling in all of this. now, more than ever, is the moment for the united states to bring these parties together. what's in the way? bibi netanyahu.

>> yes. >> time to cut ties here. >> mika, the mullahs in iran could not be happier. this is playing right into their hands, the gazans hands, the hezbollah. this is costing the future of israel. >> let's continue with our next guest. james stavridis, four star navy admiral, thank you very much. joining us now, msnbc analyst and author peter bynart. october 7th, everybody that happened before that day, on that day, after that day, must will marked as a grievous moment in history. every moment must be documented and remembered, the atrocities. there is no question. in the next point i'm about to

make, no one is insinuating that. at the same time, through bombing or starvation, life is diminishing fast in gaza. for president biden, i guess the question is, you know, you i don't can't support that. you have to support protecting the civilians. if you don't speak on it and act on it, is there a slight complicity here? >> yes. tuft university expert on starvation said no one has been brought to the brink of famine as fast as those in gaza. we sent our troops into somalia in '90s to try to stop a starvation. this is a starvation happening faster and, you're right, tragically, not just is the u.s. not stopping it, we are complicit in it.

the truth, what happened on october 7th was ahorror. people in my community, the jewish community, pray for them every day. but the government that was in power in the united states used it for its own agenda when they invaded iraq. this government, elements in this government, perhaps netanyahu himself, have had an agenda. their agenda is to move that population of palestinians out of gaza and force them into egypt. "washington post" reported that netanyahu had asked the leaders of france and britain to get egypt to take these people. gaza being made unlivable like this is part of a strategy by some in the israeli government, not everyone, some in the israeli government to force that population out. the united states has to stop that from happening. >> by the way, egypt's answer so

far has been absolutely not. der is closed, not even taking in refugees. peter, the sickness of all this, of course, is what is playing out right now is exactly what hamas wants, what it wanted from the beginning when it provoked that attack. which is, when you are a terrorist death cult, you don't care about your own people because it serves your means to make israel look bad if civilians are dying. when you talk about joe biden, the president of the united states, now as you say, having to insist to prime minister netanyahu on a cease-fire, the view from the other side, as you know very well, is we cannot have a cease-fire with hamas because hamas will not cease-firing. we'll put down our arms and they'll keep coming at us like they did on october 7th. for our own security, we can't have a cease-fire. what do you say to that? what does president biden say so that? >> the truth of the matter is u.s. officials do not think the united states can destroy hamas. of course, everyone would like hamas no longer to exist, just as we would have liked the

taliban not to exist. but israel doesn't have the capacity to do that. it has seriously degraded hamas' capacity. there needs to be a cease-fire in which these people can stop starving death. then there needs to be a political transition in gaza from hamas that could probably be negotiated now. it's true, not every hamas fighter would be killed. not every hamas gun would be destroyed. but you have to factor in the fact that every time israel kills someone in gaza, they are creating a new recruit for hamas or the next palestinian resistance group. we know hamas recruits from the families of people that israel has killed. can you imagine how many potential recruits there are now to fight israel? that's what terrifies me as someone who cares about the security of israelis. >> peter, on the morning of october 6th, 2023, israeli

intelligence services reviewed as among the best in the world. on the morning of october 6th, the idf, israeli defense forces, were viewed as a strong, wonderful army. >> right. >> on the morning of october 6th, israel was viewed by the united states and its population, large elements of the population, as a strong ally. bibi netanyahu a strong ally. talk about the morning of march -- or april 1st or whatever date it is now. talk about the difference. >> even before this, we were seeing a generational chasm emerge in the united states on the question of israel. it has accelerated since october 7th. in which older people have a vision of israel as a liberal democracy, a country created in the ashes of the holocaust, and feel like it is america's obligation to support that. but younger people have known no other israeli prime minister

other than benjamin netanyahu. they've seen the israeli government that does not want to create a palestinian state, that wants to permanently occupy millions of people who lack the most basic human rights. that is what's creating this crisis for joe biden. because young americans are moving in drove, at tremendous speed, just like on issues like gay marriage, a tremendous speed in the direction of supporting the palestinian cause of freedom and not supporting israel. you know where else it is happening? it is happening among american jews. there is a massive chasm among american jews, as well. young american jews are leading the protests for a cease-fire. israel, as joe is saying, israel has contributed to that massively. starting when netanyahu returned to power in 2009 and accelerating since he created this radical, new government. >> all right. peter beinart, thank you very much for your point of view this morning. we really appreciate it.

fyi for mike barnicle, it is march 1st. >> march. let me right that down. >> april 7th is mark's birthday. the 9th is your birthday. >> march 1st. >> next month. big b-day. >> we got it. coming up, ahead of the 2024 election, a growing number of americans are identifying as independent. >> i'm independent, there you go. >> we'll talk about what that means for the challenges our democracy faces. "morning joe" is back in a moment. so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right?

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49 past the hour. live look at the white house as the presidential election fast approaches. there is a rising tide of independent voters sweeping the nation. a recent poll shows 45% of

americans now identify as unaffiliated with any political party. a big move away from traditional allegiances. that is reshaping the political landscape. joining us now with charts on this is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner. >> steve, thanks so much for being with us. a lot of people look at this time and the future and are thinking maybe the rise and possibly fall of donald trump or the rise, fall, rise of donald trump will be the story, really the political story for the next 10, 20 years. the impact on the country. i've got to say, politically, the rise of independents, what you're look at right now, i think, will be far more significant because it does seem that we're about to break what jon meacham called that 150 year duopoly that has controlled american politics. >> yeah, joe. actually, the two things i think are connected, but we'll see what everybody else thinks when

i show you some numbers here. so in terms of mika's lead-in and the rise of independents, i'll show you what it looks like on a chart. 2004, roughly an even division among republicans, democrats, and independents. it's simply gone like this, like jaws. republicans and democrats have ended up in the same place, though democrats did better for a while. now, as mika said, independents are up to 45%. what does this reflect? i think it reflects a considerable degree of people's unhappiness with how our democracy operates. 27% of americans believe that our system is working either well or very well. the rest think it is not working very well. there are 32 states that permit party registration. a lot actually don't. those who live in those states don't understand that, but that's the way it is. disproportionately large number of independents in states that don't permit party registration. all these green states, there was an increase in independents

over this period of time, from 2014 to 2024. a few states where it went down. basically, independents on the rise. >> you know, i was at a school event last night, steve, and talked to several parents. we were talking just in general. talking about independents. everybody seemed to come to the same conclusion, and i found it fascinating. you know, they say, where's the candidate that's economically conservative, that believes the united states should be involved in the world, that believes that women should have control of their own bodies? they just went down the list. they were trying to make the point, their view, that you're about to make right now, i think, and that is that people are becoming more polarized,

which is actually driving a lot of americans into looking for a third choice. >> yeah, that's part of the point. you have the parties in the hands of a smaller and smaller number of people. inevitably, it becomes the extremists. the democrats happily have maintained, i think, a more moderate stance. but when you see what's happening with the republicans and trump, you have to look at the fact that many people have left the republican party as part of it. let's take a look here at the trend. what's also happening is that the red states are getting redder and the blue states are getting bluer. the increase in presidential registrations has moved toward blue states, have gotten bluer, as i said. red states have gotten redder. there are only four or five states that have gone the other way, nevada and utah, pennsylvania, new jersey, and rhode island have become more red.

utah and kansas, oddly enough, slightly more blue. basically, the trend is as party registrations move, the red states get redder and the blue states get bluer. why does this matter? this matters because our elections are being decided in a smaller and smaller number of places. back here in 2000, 47% of the elections by county, we're looking at this by county, before decided by 20 percentage points or less. today, only 22% of our elections are being decided by 20 percentage points or less. that means that all the rest of this, 80% almost of our elections, are being decided by more than 20 percentage points in a given county, which means, again, a smaller and smaller number of voters are essentially deciding our elections because we have so many uncompetitive races. >> steve, your third chart looks at primary turnout. i'm curious how you think this plays into all of this. >> given what i just said about how more and more elections are decided in fewer and fewer

places, the primaries become more important. you go back to my point about the decrease in party registration. you combine that. what you find is that the number of voters who can't vote in a primary because they are not registered to a party has gone from 15 million to 27 million. these voters are effectively shut out from deciding who the nominee is. therefore, since the nominee has become so much more important, less able to influence the outcome of an election. then you talk about turnout. turnout actually, in general elections, has gone up a bit. we've succeeded in convincing people they should vote 38% to 47%. turnout in primaries hasn't moved at all. it's stuck down at 20%. only 20% of americans are voting in these primaries. in new york and virginia in the last primary, only 3% of people voted. these are people deciding the nominees in states often not competitive. in effect, they're choosing the

winner. >> it is an important and interesting point. we looked around iowa, steve, when there was the shock that donald trump had won so big. then you looked at it. we won just over 50% of a tiny turnout among republicans in the state of iowa. "morning joe" economic analyst steve rattner bringing the heat, bringing the charts. thanks, steve, as always. we appreciate it. sam, let's talk about the impact of a growing number of independents on a national election, which is what we're seeing right now. you kind of call it the people joe was talking to at the school event, the normies, people not immersed in cable and news, out living their lives. they want government to stop the nonsense and get something done. let's look at this election right now. who does joe biden, who does donald trump need to be talking to to swing them? >> right. you know, i think there's, like, two types of independents. there's the normies who are people who just don't want to be totally engaged in the fight 24

hours a day, who want some sort of centrist model of governance. and just want people to chill out, right? those are the traditional independents. >> yeah. >> there's the independents who, you know, maybe support marjorie taylor greene or rfk jr. who, you know, really have sort of a weird convergence of policy interests and political interests and maybe some skeptical vaccine interest that gets involved. those are not the traditional third party moderate independents. i want to make that distinction. but both will have a huge impact on the election. it is possible rfk jr.'s candidacy will get double digit support, potentially, in many of the critical swing states. who knows who that takes the most from. we haven't had that type of level of support since ross perot. for biden and trump, they have to contort in certain ways, i'd suspect, to try to appeal to

those voters. it is trying to figure out which class of independents will take the most from their candidacy. >> all right. still ahead on "morning joe," our next guest is asking the question, why is trump trying to make ukraine lose? anne applebaum joins us with that ahead. also, we'll speak with congressman dan goldman of new york following his committee's release of hunter biden's closed door testimony. >> he's cleaned off his shoes. there's a lot of hay and, you know -- >> yeah. >> when your opponents have a pig as their chief legal counsel, nobody gets away from that unscathed. >> it's tough. >> not the shoes at least. >> it's tough. >> it is. >> "morning joe" will be right back.

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do you think the american public is tired of this because they can't understand it, it's

complicated, all the names, places, and faces? you haven't proved the basic point yet, that president biden was directly involved. is the public getting tired of it? >> i don't know how much longer this investigation can go on without bearing some fruit. >> some hosts on fox news and newsmax are pushing back on the inquiry into president biden as house republicans fail over and over again to produce any evidence against the president. >> right. you know, willie, you've had that neil cavuto and some fox news hosts even over the last couple weeks who have said, there's nothing there. when are you going to prove it? even when sean hannity is throwing softballs to comer, "are you going to prove the joe biden crime family?" after comer was whispered in the ear by arnold the pig, says, "i sure hope so." this has been going on for a long time. again, people think we're just -- >> meanwhile, aid to ukraine,

israel. >> we're not making this up. they are. it's just ridiculous. they look stupid. that's what you're hearing from these newsmax and fox business and fox news hosts. when they start asking ya if your attacks on joe biden are too off point, you know there's something wrong. >> yeah, when you've lost newsmax, you've got a problem. oan is next to fall. steve ducey from "fox and friends" has been talking about this, as well. if something is there, it is long past time to show us the evidence. even yesterday, chairman comer comes out with his, "well, there's a lot of smoke here. we need now a public hearing."c. if he had the evidence, believe me, he would have presented it by now. he doesn't have it. sort of like donald trump with the order issue, wants to keep this alive and through the air until the election to create doubt around joe biden. if i could evoke the joe

scarborough hot stove rule. put your hand on the stover and it comes off sizzling, and there is a sear on your palm. to walk past the stove again and say, wonder what that feels like, and put your hand on the stove again. >> right? >> that's what this committee is doing again and again and again. >> he's saying there's smoke. the smoke is coming from their lies. they tell lies and go, there's smoke there. there must be fire, but there's not. "the wall street journal" editorial page three, four months ago, saying to comer, move along. there's smoke, you're saying there's smoke, prove it. if you can't prove it, move along. they haven't proved it. >> so many other priorprioritie >> by this point, they're lying. they know they're lying. they know the audience knows they're lying, but they're doing this in service of donald trump. not in service of justice, not in service of good government. they're doing this in service of donald trump. they're just making fools of themselves. if they want to keep humiliating

themselves for donald trump, well, get in a very, very long line around the capitol. so many republicans have done that. along with joe, willie, and me, we have nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann. host of the podcast "on brand with donny deutsch," donny deutsch. staff writer at "the new yorker," susan glasser is with us. good to have you all on board. president joe biden and former president donald trump both visited texas towns at the southern border yesterday and delivered very different messages. >> i understand my predecessor is in eagle pass today. here's what i would say to mr. trump, join me. or i'll join you in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan border security bill. we can do it together. >> the united states is being overrun by the biden migrant crime. it's a new form of vicious violation to our country. >> there's no red state or blue

state where i come from. it is just communities and families looking for help. >> this governor newscum from california, isn't that his name, newscum? what he's done to california is unbelievable. >> instead of playing politics with the issue, let's get together and get it done. >> this is a joe biden invasion. horrible, crooked joe is the blood of countless citizen victims. >> compromise is part of the process. that's how democracy works, how it is supposed to work. >> we did much better in 2020 than we thought about in 2016. very bad things happened. >> we work for the american people, not the democratic party, the republican party. we work for the american people. >> nobody explained to me how allowing millions of people from places unknown, from countries unknown, who don't speak languages -- we have languages coming into our country and nobody that even speaks those languages. they're truly foreign languages. nobody speaks them. and they're pouring into our country and bringing with them

tremendous problems, including medical problems, as you know. >> what are we supposed to do with that? people are actually voting -- >> truly foreign languages. >> is there one person voting for that guy? how stupid would you have to be -- >> truly foreign. >> he can't complete a sentence. he can't complete a thought. he talks about crooked joe is the blood of countless victims. this is vicious violation. i mean -- >> does he even, like, think about what he is going to say? does somebody give him a little paper or something? like, that's clear he doesn't. he doesn't even think. >> well, i think -- i really don't know, willie. >> he can't -- >> you can give us insight on it, but he looks so lost and confused, jumbles his words. he tries to read a little bit. >> he is trying to be nasty. >> yeah, trying to be nasty, but when he does that fifth grade or really 5-year-old taunt,

newscum, is that his name, newscum? i mean, talk about losing about 18 miles off your fastball. >> yeah. >> that guy -- this guy is pitching 72 miles an hour down the middle of the plate. i mean, it's not good. again, i just have to bring it up. he's lying, as he always does, when he talks about the border. when he ran and was talking about the border wall, barack obama and joe biden had illegal border crossings on the southern border at a 50 year low. he's just making this stuff up every day. then the numbers exploded under him. then they exploded even higher under joe biden. joe biden and senator langford, the most conserative senator probably in the united states senate and democrats came together for a bipartisan bill. listen to this. joe biden is saying yesterday,

let's put politics aside. let's come together and pass the toughest border security boil ever. which, of course, those border security agents that joe biden is with right there, their union came out and begged donald trump and mike johnson to stop playing politics with the safety and the security of americans! the guy on the left worked with hard core republicans and took a position that progressives in his party hate. but he came to the center. he came to compromise with republicans and actually even went further right than most of his party was comfortable with. they got a deal. then the guy on the right said, "don't pass the toughest security border legislation ever. it might help joe biden." i mean, that's where we are

right now. donald trump has said he wants the crisis to continue unabated for the next year. >> yeah, and he's given that order to the speaker of the house, mike johnson, who is very happy to take it and to turn his back on this bipartisan legislation, led by the noted liberal squish, james lankford. one of the most conservative members of the united states senate who worked for months to put this together, said this is what you said you wanted from us. here it is. this is as good as it is ever going to get. yet, the house won't take it up on the orders, as you say, of donald trump. so susan glasser, this is an extraordinary moment yesterday. first of all, to have the sitting president and his predecessor, and now challenger again, about 300 miles apart along the southern border on the same afternoon. what did you see there yesterday in terms of the president's presentation? this is an issue that's dogged him, immigration, that voters say is really important to them coming up.

they say they trust donald trump more than they do joe biden. now, joe biden has been kind of handed this issue, handed this position, where he can say, i support doing something about the border. that something is the bipartisan legislation that the guy who says he wants to do something, joe biden, has instructed his minions in the house of representatives to reject. >> yeah, you know, willie, it's really interesting to see, finally, this kind of direct compare and contrast, right? i think in many ways, the white house must have been hoping that there would be this kind of, here's donald trump frothing, name calling, sounding, you know, sort of crazy and reckless, and biden with the words of, you know, practical governance. in the end, it's the contrast between the two this year, right? do you want a party that's going to offer you governing versus do you want a party that is going to offer you this kind of demagoguery? it is notable that biden chose to go to the border. i think even critics within his

own party would say he sort of avoided the issue for much of his tenure in the white house, rather than sort of anticlating -- articulating and contrasting with trump's demagoguery. this collapse of the deal in congress handed biden an issue where he didn't have one. i do note many of the surveys show immigration rising up as an issue americans are concerned about. i don't think that's good news for democrats given that more than any other issue, it's the one that is associated with trump and his particular brand of demagoguery since the day he entered politics in 2015. >> picking up from susan left off, donny, just to put numbers on it. we've seen it, a, the concerns over immigration in the country are spiking. it's now for a lot of people about a third of the vote. 30% of voters say it is the most important issue, way more heavily to republicans than democrats, but the issue is on the rise, number one. number two, you look

consistently, as susan points to, maybe it's the legacy or the fact that biden seems to have not been addressing it for so long and that it is trump's brand and image, it's the case that you have trump usually with without the support on the issue. not double the support but people who say trump and biden, who is superior on this issue, biden gets about 28% approval on his handling of immigration and trump closer to 50%. right now, until this moment, when this issue has been handed to him, as susan said, donald trump and the republicans playing nasser arafat, never missing an opportunity to miss an opportunity, is handing biden the issue. is it too late for biden to turn this around, or are the perceptions of, this is the democrats' border crisis. joe biden was asleep at the switch. donald trump is the get tough guy on immigration. for the voters that matter, is that already set in stone? >> i don't think so. i mentioned this yesterday and you mentioned it in the previous hour. tom suozzi in the third district, congressional district, running for santos' seat showed up that you can be

aggressive on immigration. you can go on the offense and say, this very message, "look, we want to get it done. the other guys are stopping it." i thought that message maybe would fall on deaf ears, but that was a stunning victory. i'm not saying it extrapolates to every county in the country, but democrats have no choice. whether it is too late or not, we'll find out in november. biden has to walk right into this. they have to own immigration and make republicans the boogieman on this one. it's not too late. i wish biden would do an executive order, a grand gesture. they have to get tough. even if he loses the fringe progressives on his party, he doesn't have a choice. >> we'll come back to this. we want to pause because funeral services for russian opposition leader aleei navalny has wrapped up in russia. his body now headed to a nearby cemetery where he will be laid to rest. crowds have gathered to watch the procession.

navalny died two weeks ago in a russian penal colony. joining us from london, nbc news chief international correspondent keir simmons. keir, what more can you tell us? >> willie, i said an hour ago that these images that we would consider ordinary in the u.s. are extraordinary in today's russia. that's even more so now. there is now an image of alexei navalny in an open coffin, inside the church. his parents among those gathered around him. the u.s. ambassador is there, too, with other diplomats. the russian authorities harassing supporters to the end. this morning, releasing the body later than promised. but the scenes outside the church are as stunning, frankly, as what we are seeing inside the church. as his coffin was carried into the church, as he arrived, we heard people shouting, calling out, "navalny!" i'm pausing there because you can hear them.

just remember, every one of those people in that crowd and the organizers say that that is more than 1,000 people there. every one of them are risking jail, potentially a fine, but they're risking arrest, financial potentially a fine or jail. the kremlin making it clear it is against the law, as it said, to attend unauthorized gatherings and has said that any gathering outside of the church itself is not legal. so the kremlin not commenting this morning once again on navalny's death. kremlin spokesman peskov, when asked if they hadfamily, said, don't have anything to say." extraordinary scenes. the service is now over. the crowd you heard chanting "navalny" are now chanting, "we will not forgive you." >> as you say, that's putin's

russia, an act of courage, just to attend the funeral. we had reports from navalny's family that funeral directors said they would not or could not prepare the body or organize the funeral because of concerns around their safety. keir simmons covering the funeral of alexei navalny. thank you, keir. staff writer of the "atlantic," anne applebaum, joining us, and her piece is "why is trump trying to lose ukraine"? first, what's your reaction to russia? >> the so-called christian leader, vladimir putin, has done everything he could to hamper a christian funeral. he refused to hand over navalny's body to navalny's mother. the prison authorities threatened her. they wanted her to promise to do the funeral in secret. they'd say, we have the body. it is decomposing. there is nothing you can do. really horrible stories.

then they made it difficult to get a hearse. they made it difficult to hold the funeral, hold a wake. they've harassed anybody who shows up at the funeral. they've arrested people this morning. yet, people are coming out. i saw a clip this morning from the funeral, and people were chanting, "you weren't afraid so we aren't afraid." i think the second important point is navalny will go on being a symbol of civic courage in a country that has very few symbols like that. and the funeral will undermine that point. incidentally, there will be further demonstrations later this evening. the navalny team has called for people all over russia to go to memorials in their cities, wherever they are, to pay their respects. >> we'll be following all of this throughout the day. >> just remarkable. >> really staggering scenes out of russia. anne, you write in your latest piece about donald trump

ukrainians are low on ammunition. he must also know that right now no one except the u.s. can help. yet trump wants congress to block it. why? this is the part that nobody understands. trump wants to remain engaged with the world but on different terms. if ukraine is partitioned, or if ukraine loses the war, then trump could twist that situation to his own advantage. once the u.s. is no longer the security guarantor for europe, and once the u.s. is no longer trusted in asia, then some nations will begin to hedge, to make their own deals with russia and china. others will seek their own nuclear shields. the united states will lose the dominant role it has played in the democratic world since 1945.

all of this could happen even if trump doesn't win the election. he is already dictating u.s. foreign policy, shaping perceptions of america in the world. a member of the german parliament told me in munich that he fears europe could someday be competing against three autocracies: russia, china, and the united states." anne, not only is trump -- i mean, the bottom line is, isn't this for putin, or do you see some other ulterior motive here? >> i think it's really important to distinguish trump from the isolationists of a previous generation. you know, the isolationists in the 1930s weren't planning to do business with hitler, at least most of them weren't, certainly not the ones in the senate. trump has a lot of motives here. he keeps very quiet about russia and very quiet about ukraine. he knows that russia is unpopular, and rightly so given the scenes we've just seen.

he knows that ukraine is still popular. polling shows ukraine is poll popular in the united states, the poll showing there is support for helping ukrainians. yet, he hasulterior motives. i hear versions of them, some to do with oil, some trading with russia, some may be personal. maybe he thinks putin will help him again in his election campaign. the point is, we have a leader of the united states whose loyalties are not to the united states. they're not to american national interests. they're not to america's alliances. remember, america's alliances are sources of economic advantage as well as security advantage. you know, our trade with europeans, why do europeans buy so much american weaponry? why do they buy american airplanes? why do they buy american energy technology? one of the reasons they do it is

because they want good relationships with the country that guarantees their security. once that's over, and it is beginning to end as people see that trump is influencing the u.s. even while out of power, many of those economic relationships and political relationships will die, as well. and so trump isests and not the interest. >> anne, this is just a twisted subset of the republican party and conservatives. i say that because you have people like mark levin coming out saying, who, i think, worked in the reagan administration, certainly was shaped by ronald reagan's administration, saying, this isn't a dress rehearsal. this is the real thing. putin is not playing around. we can't play around. you have dan heminger with "the wall street journal" saying this is munich 1938.

this is the appeasement of a malevolent force that wants to sweep across europe, invade europe. he said it is up to donald trump to convince us that we aren't stumbling into munich 1938 again. you have chairman mccaul. you have chairman turner in the house. you have so many republicans and conservatives who still understand, the united states of america has to defend those who want to defend western democracy. it's just shocking that such a small subset, donald trump, mike johnson, and lindsey graham, are working together to help vladimir putin now. >> yeah, they are. and as i say, their motives are questionable. i mean, both johnson and graham are people who know better. i found a quote that's quoted in my article in "the atlantic,"

something johnson said a couple years ago. he was very clear, you know, we need to stop russia now. we don't want russia to invade europe. we don't want russia to go farther. he understands what's at stake. lindsey graham understands what's at stake. he has been involved in national security policy for decades. yet they are so beholden to trump, they're afraid of losing their seats, they want a job in his next administration. i can't read into their minds, yet they are doing his bidding. that is something i don't think we've seen in u.s. politics before the trump era. >> all right. "the atlantic's" anne applebaum, as always, thank you so much for being with us. >> thank you. so much going on across the globe right now. obviously in gaza, horrific scen scenes. people being crushed as they're trying to get aid. it is, as i've said, as somebody who has been very supportive of israel my entire adult life, these are scenes along with what we've seen over the past month in gaza that are damaging.

damaging israel. they're just devastating to gazans. the humanitarian crisis continues to grow. this is the exact reaction, sadly, i knew -- i knew it on october 7thto mika, "this is what is going to happen," and she agreed. it's happening, donny deutsch. among young americans, there's an overwhelming move against israel and towards palestinians. bluntly, on college campuses, some extreme statements taking hold. you can go to most campuses and hear the chants of "from the river to the sea," the obliteration of israel. with netanyahu, obviously netanyahu's actions feed right

into it. what should defenders of the state of israel be thinking? what should they be doing? i heard what you said yesterday. what should they do to, first of all, help israel's image, and, secondly, maybe prod benjamin netanyahu to leave office? >> yeah, i'll double down. look, any human being wants a cease-fire. any human being doesn't want innocent civilians killed. by the history is being written the wrong way. the history is written that israel are the a aggressors here. are they overreacting, you can talk about that. i'm pleading with israel, release the footage that i talked about yesterday, the 47 minutes from the idf that showed the terrorist attack. it is getting buried.

october 7th keeps going farther and farther away. people need to understand what israel is living next to. everyone is talking about a two-state solution. i'd love that, also. what does it look like when you have an enemy on the other side? there are a lot of radicalized people there that will do this again. israel, what young people see on a daily basis is what israel is doing now in response. once again, it could be a debate. that response needs to pull back and there needs to be a cease-fire. but this started on october 6th. show the footage. show the atrocities. show the savagery that israel lives next door to. >> i certainly agree with that. i also agree with what was said earlier this hour, susan glasser. for so many young people, the only prime minister they've known in israel is bibi netanyahu. bibi netanyahu not only played a cynical game with hamas to make sure they'd continue to be funded by qatar. to make sure when he and trump

found out in 2018 about hamas funding sources, to let the funding sources stay alive and continue funding hamas. he has been undermining the two-state solution for over a decade. he has created the environment on the west bank that has made it, he thinks, nearly impossible to get to a two-state solution. but as admiral stavridisearlier from leaders in the middle east, there is such a pressure coming from arab leaders about a two-state solution, saying, we are here, united states. we will help. but time is running out. >> yeah, i think that's right. there's a palpable sense that this is just a disaster unfolding. you know, not only is netanyahu not engaged in a constructive way forward, remember that his political life is on the line. the bottom line is that the views you expressed about

netanyahu being responsible in some ways for this are held across a wide swath of the israeli population. if they were to hold an election today, it is very, very unlikely that netanyahu would receive another term as prime minister. unfortunately, that means he has, in a way, a built-in incentive to continue this war. what worries me right now is there are fewer and fewer constraints on netanyahu. the united states has been seen as a senior partner here. we have been not only a guarantor for israel in the world, providing weapons, providing, more importantly even, geopolitical support. yet, what i see is netanyahu saying no to president biden, not listening to pressure from the white house anymore. there was a moment that clarified that earlier this week when you saw president biden say, "yes, i think there is a really good chance of getting a deal for the hostages by the beginning of next week." that now seems like that is very, very unlikely to happen.

frankly, i think that netanyahu has this built-in incentive to keep the conflict going. as you pointed out, he has never been a genuine supporter of a two-state solution, which is part of why the disaster with hamas was allowed to keep going in gaza for so long, because it suited some israeli political inter interests. unfortunately, we see the result. i don't see the conflict ending any time soon, i have to say. >> "the new yorker"'s susan glasser, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," we'll be joined by a democratic member of the house oversight committee. congressman dan goldman following hunter biden's closed door testimony this week. plus, a live report from florida as we await another hearing in former president trump's classified documents case. before we go to break, willie, what do you have planned for "sunday today"?

>> well, tomorrow night, she's hosting "snl." sunday morning, she's sitting down with us. sydney sweeney, one of the brightest,young stars in hollywood. "euphoria," "white lotus," and the massive, "anything but you" that made $230 million at the box office for a romantic comedy. now hosting "snl." then she'll be talking to us on "nbc sunday today," coming up this weekend. we'll be right back here on "morning joe."

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i think when the transcript comes out, it is going to read well for them because they prepped for a read. but that's -- >> interesting. >> -- what the reality is. yeah, yeah, when you get down to it, you start parsing the words,

you start realizing, yeah, that's very interesting. >> what? quote, when the transcript comes out, it's going to read well for him. that was republican member of the judiciary committee, congressman from arizona, after the hunter biden closed door testimony he received. interesting. the committee publicly released the full 229-page transcript of hunter's testimony as part of their impeachment inquiry into his father, president biden. the document with some redactions addressed numerous topics, including hunter's laptop, addiction, joe biden, and donald trump's son-in-law, jared kushner was mentioned. hunter attempted to draw a

contrast from the scrutiny he's received from the committees and questioned why they were not probing jared kushner for his own foreign business dealings. when a lawmaker asked hunter whether he worked with foreign governments, he said, i never worked for a country. i am not jared kushner. hunter also pushed back on republicans for not investigating the money kushner's firm received after he left the white house in 2021. when jared kushner flies to saudi arabia, picks up $2 billion, comes back and puts it in his pocket, okay, and trump is running for president in the united states, you guys have any problem with that? hunter biden also testified he never crossed very bright lines of asking his father to help his business partners and was always sensitive at keeping his father at arm's length.

one thing that we, that i was fully aware of my entire life was my dad was an official of the united states government, he said. and there were very bright lines that i abided to and i was very, very cognisant of, and made certain i never engaged with my father in asking him to do anything on my behalf or on behalf of any client of mine. joining us now, democratic member of the house oversight committee goldman dan goldman of new york. so what did they find? i mean, what happened here? i hear there was even chuckling at times at the stupidity of it all. i mean, this is a lot of time being spent, trying to, i guess, impeach the president at some point here. is there anything? >> zero. there is absolutely nothing.

the remarkable thing about this 229-page transcript when you read it is how little of it relates to joe biden. which is the purpose of this investigation, which has moved into an impeachment investigation with 14 months in the books here. there are a couple things you read that are important. when hunter biden asked the republican members of congress, "do you have any problem with that?" there were a couple who said yes. it is not in the transcript. but they said yes. others were nodding. because he did a very good job of confronting them with the difference between what he did, which was dealing in international business with non-government officials, non-government entities, versus jared kushner, who received $2 billion from the saudi arabian government right after he was the point person on middle east policy for the trump

administration. and after the advisory board of the saudi government's investment arm recommended not investing in him because he had never done what he was starting to do. and the contrast is so stark because it is so obvious that what jared kushner did deserves investigation, and what hunter biden did, at this point, is just purely punitive and purely attacking someone who has made mistakes and admitted to that, but who is not a public official and never has been. it's purely being done right now just to provide election fodder for donald trump. >> yeah. >> congressman, good morning. good to have you back with us. yeah, you led me to my question, which is jared kushner. his name came up several times in the deposition yesterday. jared kushner received $2 billion from the saudis. chairman comer and others want to talk about the $1,300

payments for a pickup truck that hunter received from his father and reimbursed him later. are there republicans who believe this has gone on too long, that it is a farce, that all of their star witnesses have now become either fugitives or indicted by the justice department, that they come out of these meetings and tweak, breaking news, hunter said this or that. and chairman comer says there's smoke, and they'll get to the fire soon. or does this just hurt joe biden among a certain subset of voters so they'll keep this ball in the air through the election? >> there are many republicans and congressman biggs' comment about how the transcript going to read well for him, he is one of the staunchest supporters of impeachment. this he is saying that, that indicates there are many, many others who really question this.

even matt gaetz has gone on the air and said there's not enough to impeach him here, and the other members of the republican party will not vote. they don't have the votes for impeachment. they can't bring this to the floor. you have hunter biden putting the nail in the coffin on any allegations which were bogus and unsupported to begin with, about foreign influence peddling, on the one hand. on the other hand, you have bogus burisma allegations that have been debunked over and over. now, it comes out that the source that they were relying on, the only evidence they had was a confidential human source's reporting to thecorrob unverified. in the face of so much evidence to the contrary. now, not only was that source lying but the source was working with russian intelligence to plant this story in order to interfere in the election. so it's not just, oh, this

investigation has blown up and it's over. it's now at the point, willie, where if the republicans continue to go down this impeachment investigation, they are knowingly doing it to assist vladimir putin in interfering in our upcoming election. so it is far more serious than just, oh, james comer at this point is an embarrassment and should be embarrassed with such a terrible investigation. it's now much more source. these house republicans are going to be complicit in russia's effort to install donald trump as president again. >> congressman, i'm trying to understand the politics here. steve rattner was up here before showing kind of the growing independents and the swing voters. tell me the one voter that actually would give a crap about this. that's what i don't understand. forget the moral issue and the points you're making. from the politics of it, it's innate. >> well, the politics are interesting. you obviously have the far right and the ecosphere of newsmax and fox news, sean hannity peddling

this over and over. >> they already have those voters. >> they're already locked in. i think it's going to backfire. i've said this for a while. it was very clear through all of these depositions, most of which i sat in on, that these witnesses that were their witnesses, they brought them in because they were the ones that were going to prove their case, every single one of them essentially said, no, i have no evidence connecting joe biden to anything that hunter is doing. so they've overreached here. they have clearly overreached, and they have not corrected course. what that is telling the american people, especially when you compare the ineptitude of this congress, that we continue to not be able to get anything done because the republicans can't get their house in order. so you have the dichotomy of them pushing this hunter biden bogus story that, at this point, is just harassment of hunter biden, versus -- >> it really is. >> -- doing nothing for the

american people, getting absolutely nothing done. not solving the border crisis. not bringing national security funding to the floor. not funding our government. and it's so clear that all these republicans can do is politics. those independent voters who are tired of the partisanship and want to get something done see joe biden compromising on immigration legislation in the senate. they see joe biden, for the first two years of his presidency, passing historic legislation that will boost manufacturing and semiconductor and brings jobs back to america, raises wages. on the other hand, when the republicans have been governing, they literally cannot pass any bills amongst themselves in the house. you have the senate working in a bipartisan way. the house republicans are the block, are the obstacle to solving america's problems. partly because they're spending so much time on these absolutely absurd investigations of hunter

biden and secretary mayorkas. >> it's just -- i mean, i'm still stuck on the sound bite that we came into this whole segment with, dan. i mean, i think it was biggs, republican congressman, saying, you know, this transcript is going to read well for him. you know, kind of like you had to be there to really see the grime. well, then make it public. he showed up. he wanted to do this publicly, they wouldn't let him. i mean, at every turn, there has been nothing. a lot of work needs to be done in congress that is actually serious to the future of this country, so it's frustrating on many levels. democratic member of the house oversight and homeland security committees, congressman dan goldman, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. >> thanks for having me. >> we appreciate it. coming up, several medical experts are criticizing florida's surgeon general for his response to a measles

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ten cases of measles have been reported in florida now with the outbreak starting at manatee bay elementary school in south florida's broward county. 8% of kindergartners in that county are not vaccinated. a florida senator followed by ron desantis has come under heavy criticism by medical experts for his response to the outbreak. he has not advised parents of exposed children to have their kids quarantined or to be vaccinated if they have not already been. since he was tapped for the job by desantis, he has given

questionable medical advice, and even talking points about the covid-19 vaccine. joining us is dr. vin gupta. it's good to have you with us. let's talk about ten cases of measles. that as a raw number may not sound like a huge outbreak to people, but it is because we thought it had been eradicated from this country. so can you speak to what this is telling you not just about south florida, but about this idea of anti-vaxx rhetoric floating around the country? >> good morning, willie. this is a serious topic and deserves a serious treatment. thank you. this is a big deal because what's happening in broward county is emblematic of what's happening across the southeast united states, and parts of the other country as well which is this misinformation driven by

some people saying i'm not going to get the measles shot for my child. here's where there's a problem. for kids less than 5 who are unvaccinated and exposed, testing positive for measles, willie, if they test positive, mortality rates could be as high as 12% to 15%. yes, we went back and forth about how much of a risk covid was for kids. it's very clear measles is one of the riskiest types of infectious diseases in the world for children that are unprotected. this senator is playing with fire here because there's a serious risk that kids are going to end up in the hospital. unvaccinated, and unprotected, that's exactly what we're talking about here. kindergartners in broward county, that were exposed, unvaccinated, he's saying, it's up to you. if you want to get them vaccinated in under 72 hours, not telling them to do that, he's harming them and there needs to be an overseeing body to do that, and that's not going

to happen. >> given the numbers we have in florida, do we expect these numbers to go up? how do you turn this around at this point? >> well, mika, here's the thing with measles. there's hopefully a lot of kiddos and families that have been vaccinated just like with other infectious diseases. there can be asymptomatic or mild presentations of measles that you might not even notice. i imagine cases are a lot higher than we imagine and are seeing right now, but yes, i do expect cases to increase. unfortunately kiddos potentially ending up in the hospital and here's why there's a problem. over the course of the last five years, mika, pediatric bed capacity has declined because hospitals have shuttered. they have transitioned to adult beds. as we're seeing more and more vulnerability in kids, we're also seeing less ability of hospitals that care for kids who might end up seriously ill. we're baking in this vulnerability, have less system capacity to care for these types of situations. >> and dr. gupta, we're now

seeing the consequences of a couple of years now. several years if you want to go back to the beginning of covid-19 of this vaccine skepticism. all the conspiracy theories that are floating around on the internet that people have bought into. you have a fairly prominent presidential candidate who staked a lot of his career on that in robert kennedy jr. right now. as you see it, how much of what we're seeing in florida is the product of all of that garbage? >> oh, it's the direct result of it, willie. you and i have had this conversation. absolutely. i have people reaching out to me saying, hey. what should get the measles vaccine now? people in florida are wondering. many are watching right now, and here's real information. if you were born before 1957 or presumed that you were already immunized. if you had two known prior vaccines, you're okay. if you have been previously exposed, you're okay. if you are unvaccinated or think you only had one dose, talk to

your medical provider, and critically, all floridians in broward county, if you are pregnant and unsure, talk to your obstetrician. a lot of vulnerability there. >> nbc news medical contributor, dr. vin gupta. i'm sure we'll be talking to you about this again and following up. thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. >> thank you. and up next, we're going to play for you the very different messages that we heard from president joe biden and donald trump yesterday during competing visits to border towns in texas. "morning joe" will be right back. towns in texas. "morning joe" will be right back

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plus, ask how to get up to a $800 prepaid card with a qualifying internet package. don't wait, call and switch today! his election loss in 2020. both trump and president biden -- >> i just wonder though, willie, what do fox news viewers who are lied to with great regularity on some of these issues, what do they think when he says, yeah, no. none of that's right. what are the thoughts? >> i was smiling because you can hear the lawyers for fox news in the anchor's ear, $787 million, the hit they took for lying about certain elements of the election. he's telling the truth. it's a verifiable, objective truth that a lot of people still reject. so he says that at the end, there's no doubt about that anymore, but sadly there is a lot of doubt in many americans' minds because of the lies they have been fed now for all these years. >> well, yeah. for so many years, and a

majority, actually of republicans believe the lies that are spread by chinese religious cults and unfortunately by networks in america, and politicians too, but, you know, we showed very briefly that clip of biden going to the border, and we heard at the end of "way too early," we heard there's a belief that swazi believes, hey. he won on long island by leading the issue. that reminds me time and time again, willie, whenever you think, you know, when people are telling you that you have to run away from an issue because it may be dangerous, that's when you run into it. republicans had to slow down the rate of medicare because the trustees said it was going bankrupt. you know, everyone said we slashed medicare, we threw

grandma out in the street, and i was asked about it in my first campaign event, which was unfortunately at a retirement home, and the debate, and, you know, then i got attacked by the democrat and i said, well, okay. i'm going to make this entire campaign about medicare, and i've told this story before. you would think that that would hurt me with senior citizens. i actually, you know, had the highest approval rating among senior citizens at the end of that campaign for, like, 150 districts that, you know, a pollster, glenn bulger with republican opinion strategies polled. i ran into what was supposed to be the great weakness. my opponent -- my friends that were scared of it got crushed, but i ran into it, and yesterday at the border, you had joe biden doing something that tom swazi did, that i've just -- every

democrat in america needs to do. they need to run straight into this issue of southern border security like joe biden did yesterday because republicans have screwed it up. they could have had an issue, but they screwed it up, and i thought yesterday illustrated perfectly the difference between biden and trump at the border. biden actually asking trump, help me out here. >> yeah. yeah, that was an extraordinary bank shot that the president pulled with not just going to the border and recognizing exactly what you are saying, is that maybe he's fallen into it backwards because of the help of the republicans, but he's got an issue now that he can say, guys, i do want to fix this. in fact, we helped push along this bipartisan legislation in the senate. why aren't you taking it up? and the bank shot now as you point out, joe, is donald trump saying, this issue is too important. what joe biden said to donald

trump, let's work on this together. that shifted in the favor of joe biden. it certainly wasn't for a long time. it was one of his great weaknesses, but now with that from house republicans, he can as you say, run on this. >> he really can, and you look with who joe biden's with. he's with border security agents who begged republicans to pass the bill. >> and even more importantly, both president trump and biden were there at the same time. so you really get a split screen at not just their messages, but their approach to this, and the fact that the republicans passed on it. so donald trump is trying to steal thunder on something that he told his people, his minions in congress to pass on so he could have it later after he runs -- so it doesn't hurt his campaign. the messages to voters were very different, starkly different. >> i understand my predecessor's in eagle pass today.

so here's what i would say to mr. trump. join me or i'll join you in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan border security bill. we can do it together. >> the united states is being overrun by the biden migrant crime. it's a new form of vicious violation to our country. >> there's no red state or blue state where i come from. we're just communities and families looking for help. >> there's governor new-scum from california. isn't that his name? what he's done to california is unbelievable. >> instead of playing politics with the issue, why don't we just get together and get it done? >> but this is a joe biden invasion. horrible, crooked joe is the blood of countless innocent victims. >> compromise is part of the process. that's how democracy works. that was how it's supposed to work. >> we did more in 2020 more than we thought about doing in 2016. >> we worked for the american people. >> i mean, first of all donald

trump can't even speak in complete sentences. >> but when he does, he's lying. >> he's throwing out taunts about governors. again, like he's a child, like he's a 5-year-old and i guess, i don't know, people that vote for him like petulant little brats. i don't know why. they don't let their kids act like petulant little brats, but maybe they think they want a president who's a petulant little brat and then of course, he lies saying things were better in 2020 than we were in 2016. willie, as we've said time and time again, that's a complete lie. border crossings -- illegal border crossings were at an all-time low, a 50-year low under barack obama and eyed in 2016. when donald trump got in office, that's when the border crisis really exploded. >> yeah, and again, donald trump is no longer a blank slate. this is not 2016. there's a crisis at the border. he had four years as president to do something about it.

he controlled washington for the first two years, both houses of congress. he didn't build the wall he promised, didn't do any of these things, which speaks to the idea he wants to keep this issue alive and keep it up in the air and that's why he has directed his lieutenants in the house of representatives not to sign onto this bipartisan legislation. if they do, it gets at the problem and begins to resolve. it gets better and he believes that works in the favor of joe biden. so we saw it again yesterday, those contrasting styles. one man who now actually wants to work with republicans to get something done on the border, one man who wants to keep an issue alive. let's go down there right now to a white house reporter for the "washington post," yasmine taleb. she's covered president biden's visit. what did you see yesterday on the ground and does the white house believe now that this is an issue they can run on, something that was perceived as a weakness for joe biden? >> reporter: i think at the very least, the white house is hoping

to blunt the attacks from republicans because polls show that this is a pretty big weakness for president biden. people overwhelmingly trust former president trump on immigration more than they trust president biden, and so now you see president biden has felt like he's found an opening to not just evade the issue, but to try and run on it, and i think that's what you saw both of biden and trump doing yesterday is trying to take control of the issue. so obviously trump was, you know, calling it a biden migrant invasion and hurling sort of his usual insults, and biden was trying to strike this tone and make very clear because at one point in his remarks, he said let me be very clear about what happened. the united states senate was ready to pass this, and then someone said don't do this because it would benefit the incumbent, and so he -- you've seen him in recent weeks one, you know, just toughening his rhetoric significantly on immigration, willing to take these measures and to talk about

things that were inept among democrats for a long time, and two, to try to remind people that he was willing and eager to sign tough measures into law, and that republicans had agreed to them. they had demanded some sort of border security package as part of the more than $100 billion national security supplemental and they decided not to support it because of -- trump said not to, and i think trump called it -- it would be a gift to the radical left democrats, and so i think biden now is working to remind people of that, that he was ready to sign this, and this is why it didn't happen. >> hey. it's sam stein here. it's one thing to go to the border and try to create this contrast and produce a contrast as we just saw. it's another to go ahead and then issue executive actions to deal with the migrant crisis, and one of the things the white house is considering are some executive actions that frankly, objectively, would mirror, although wouldn't duplicate, approaches that trump himself took when he was in office. i'm wondering if you can unpack what the white house is thinking there, and if they do risk any

sort of backlash from the progressive community over adopting that type of policy posture. >> yeah. it's a great point, and they definitely risk a lot of backlash from the progressive community. already they have been getting backlash from immigrants' rights groups and progressives for the border security package that was put forward, and the white house has floated and reported on very aggressive measures and it blurs the line between trump's immigration policy and biden's. democrats have been noting biden is not talking about separating children from their parents, but, you know, these are much tougher measures than democrats are used to, and there is definitely a risk of alienating the more progressive wing of his base. >> all right. "the washington post's" yasmeen abutaleb. officials say life is draining out of gaza. we'll have the very latest on

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get started today at customink.com. the gaza health ministry says more than 130 people were killed while waiting for aid. it came when the enclave of trucks. dozens of people with gunshot wounds were brought to the hospital, but israeli defense forces say the civilians died in a stampede after thousands of people crowded the aid trucks and tried to loot them. officials released this video yesterday showing that large crowd. the military did admit it opened fire at the other end of the convoy when it says a group of -- a group approached israeli forces in a threatening manner, but officials say there were no casualties from that. nbc news has not been able to independently verify the death

toll or circumstances surrounding the incident. meanwhile, president biden told reporters yesterday the u.s. is looking into the violence. this as ceasefire negotiations are still going on between israel and hamas. take a listen. >> do you expect a ceasefire? >> hope rings eternal. i was on the phone with the people in the region. probably not by monday, but i'm hopeful. >> what is your reaction to gaza city? >> we're checking it out. there's too many versions of what happened. i don't know what happened yet. >> are you worried this will complicate? >> i know it will work out. >> what do you think of how he's handling this? >> he's doing what he needs to do. a lot of people in the region, and likewise a lot of people in the states really agree with him

and agree with what he's told people close to him that it's time to take a break, a public break from benjamin netanyahu. support the people of israel. support their right to defend themselves. support their right to protect their children and families from hamas. >> the people of israel are frustrated themselves. >> they are, but to break from bb netanyahu because regardless, admiral, regardless of what happened yesterday, shooting into a crowd would be much worse. we don't know if the gaza health ministry run by hamas, we don't know how accurate their counts are because, you know, they are run by hamas. we don't know how accurate claims from the israeli army are either. they're our allies, but you've dealt with them in a time of war and understand that as well, bit seems to me, admiral, whether it

was gunfire which would be just heinous, or whether it was palestinians so hungry and so desperate for food because of the situation that they literally trampled each other to get food for their families, this is -- this is one more devastating blow to israel's reputation across the globe, and this is for the life of me, what i don't understand, why every supporter of israel, like, i'm a supporter of israel, why they don't understand that the scenes that are unfolding in gaza are a generational nightmare for israel across the world and are a very, very immediate human -- human tragedy for the people of gaza. this has to end. this has to end. >> indeed, and let's -- let's start by just understanding what

it would feel like to be a parent or a grandparent as i am with desperately hungry children. 2.2 million people, half of them under the age of 18. so yeah. there are going to be these horrific scenes like this, and again, we need to understand the level of crisis that's unfolding in front of our eyes. you know, one of my great life mentors was colin powell and among many other wise things he would say is, it's the pottery barn rule. you break it, you own it. in other words, military 101 is if you invade and you subjugate an area, you're now responsible for the food, the medicine, the care of the civilians. that's bedrock for any military force. so for those of us who have served and remember going into iraq, remember going into

afghanistan, you own that civilian population for maintaining it, for its care, its feeding, its medicine. so israel, you are correct, joe, is suffering immense reputational damage, and even military officers like me are just kind of shaking our heads at this. it has got to stop, and to conclude on this, within that war cabinet that bb netanyahu has put together are some very steady hands, notably former chief of the israeli defense force bennie gantz and they know better. they know this has got to conclude in a way that permits security to the families. this is headed in the wrong direction for israel. >> it's horrific for israel. you look at what's happening in the united states. we've talked about this.

the majority of younger americans 30 and under have openly hostile views of israel, and are supportive of the palestinian cause right now. it's getting much, much worse as this is continued. you look at our allies in europe, and i will say right now most importantly, you look at the arab nations that surround israel, that used to invade israel, and now want to become israel's allies. i stay in touch with leaders from those countries, from diplomats from those countries, and they're all saying the same thing, and they, you know, they have been saying it over the past month. you have to help israel get past this because we want to come in and help the palestinians. >> yes. >> and let's just say, for the first time in a long time because the palestinians are despised by arab nations. they just are. they just are, and they have been abandoned by arab nations

for years now, but these arab nations, our allies, israel's allies, want to come in, rebuild gaza, help the palestinian people, but they tell me we're running out of time. this has to stop or they can't come in. >> yeah. i'm hearing exactly the same thing from very senior people across the region, and the tragedy of this -- when we were talking earlier with mike barnicle about the center of holding here, this is where the united states could really accept up and bring together all of the parties. you know, we ought to be celebrating right now the alignment of israel and the kingdom of saudi arabia. that was in the works before the events of 7 october. instead you're seeing the scenes we're playing right now. you're seeing the malevolence of

iran maneuvering throughout the entire region. you're seeing the theocracy in iran who were reveling in all of this. now is more than ever, the moment for the united states to bring these parties together and what's in the way, joe? it's bb netanyahu. it is really time to -- >> yes. >> -- cut the deal here. >> and make no mistake of it, mika. those in iran could not be happier with what's going on in gaza. the israelis playing right into their hands, playing right into hamas' hands, playing right into hezbollah's hands because, again, causing increasingly high not just for the gazan people, but for the future of israel. >> all right. let's continue with our next guest.

james stavridis, thank you very much. joining us now, nbc analyst and author, peter binart, and peter, october 7th, everything that happened on that day, before that day, after that day, must be marked as a grievous day in history and every moment would be documented and remembered. the atrocities, the questions. there's no question about the atrocities. the next point i'm about to make, it's not insinuating that. at the same time, through bombing or starvation, life is diminishing fast in gaza, and for president biden, i guess the question is, you know, you can't support that. you have to support trying to protect these civilians, and if you don't speak on it and act on it, is there a slight complicity here? >> yes. alex duval who's an expert on

famine has said that no population since world war ii has been reduced to the brink of famine as fast as the population of gaza. the united states in the 1990s went to war in somalia. we sent our own troops in there to try to stop a starvation. this is a starvation that's happening faster, and you're right. tragically, not just is the u.s. not stopping it. we are complicit in it. the truth is what happened on october 7th was a horror that people in my community, in the jewish community, we remember. we pray for those hostages every day, but the government that was in power in israel just like on 9/11, a horror struck united states and a government that was in power in the united states used it for its own agenda when they invaded iraq. this government, elements in this government, perhaps netanyahu himself have had an

agenda. their agenda is to move that population of palestinians out of gaza and force them into egypt. "the washington post" reported that netanyahu had asked the leaders of france and britain to get egypt to take these people, and so this being -- gaza being made unlivable like this, is part of a strategy by some in the israeli government, not everyone. some in the israeli government to force that population out. the united states has to stop that from happening. >> and by the way egypt's answer to that has been absolutely not. that border is closed, not even taking in refugees. the sickness of all of this is what's playing out is exactly what hamas wants, what it wanted from the beginning when it provoked that attack, which is when you're a terrorist death cult, you don't care about your own people because it serves your means to make israel look bad if civilians are dying. when you talk about joe biden, president of the united states now having to insist to prime minister netanyahu on a

ceasefire, the view from the other side as you know very well is, we cannot have a ceasefire with hamas because hamas will not cease firing. we'll put down our arms and they will keep coming at us like they did on october 7th. for our own security, we cannot have a ceasefire. so what do you say to that? what does president biden say to that? >> the truth is that u.s. officials do not think that the united states can destroy hamas. of course, everyone would like hamas no longer to exist just like we would have liked the taliban not to exist, but israel doesn't have the capacity to do that. it has seriously degraded hamas' capacity. there needs to be a ceasefire in which these people can stop starving to death, and then there needs to be a political transition in gaza from hamas to be negotiated now. it's true. now every hamas fighter would be killed. not every hamas gun would be destroyed, but when -- we have to factor in the fact that every

time israel kills someone in gaza, they are creating a new recruit for hamas for the next palestinian resistance group. we know that hamas recruits from the families of people that israel has killed. can you imagine how many potential recruits there are now to fight israel? that's what terrifies me as someone who cares about the security of israeli. >> peter, on the morning of october 6, 2023, israeli intelligence services reviewed as among the best in the world. on the morning of october 6th, the idf, the israeli defense forces reviewed as a strong, wonderful army. >> right. >> on the morning of october 6th, israel was viewed by the united states and its population, large elements of the population, as a strong ally and bb netanyahu, a strong ally. talk about the morning after march -- of april 1st or whatever date it is now.

talk about the difference. >> even before this, we were seeing a generational chasm emerge in the united states on the question of israel, and it has accelerated since october 7th in which older people have a version of israel as a liberal democracy, a country created in the -- in the ashes of the holocaust, and feel like it's america's obligation to support that, but younger people have known no other israeli prime minister other than benjamin netanyahu. they've seen the israeli government that does not want to create a palestinian state, that wants to permanently occupy millions of people who lack the most basic human rights, and that's what's creating this crisis for joe biden. young americans are moving in drove at tremendous speed just like on issues like gay marriage, at tremendous speed in the direction of supporting the palestinian cause of freedom and not supporting israel and do you know where else it's happening?

it's happening among american jews. there's a massive chasm with american jews as well. they're the ones leading these protests for a ceasefire, and israel as joe was saying, israel has contributed to that massively starting when netanyahu returned to power in 2009, and accelerating since he created this radical, new government. coming up, independents on the rise. steve rattner has new charts on how that key group of voters could sway the presidential election. "morning joe" is back in a moment. election "morning joe" is back in a moment

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fast approaches. there is a rising tide of independent voters sweeping the nation. a recent poll shows 45% of americans now identify as unaffiliated with any political party, a big move away from traditional allegiances. that is reshaping the political landscape, and joining us now with charts on this is former treasury official and "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner. >> thanks so much for being with us. a lot of people look at this time and future and they're thinking that maybe the rise and possibly fall of donald trump, or the rise, fall, and rise of donald trump could be the political story for the next 10, 20 years, the impact on the country. i've got to say politically the rise of independents, what you are looking at right now, i think will be far more significant because it does seem we're about to break what jon meacham has called that 150-year

duopoly that has controlled american politics. >> we'll see what everybody else thinks when i show you some numbers here. so in terms of mika's lead in, and this whole rise of independents, i'll show you what it looks like on a chart. if you go back to 2004, roughly an even division among republicans, democrats, and independents, and it has simply gone like this, like "jaws." republicans and democrats, although democrats did better for a while. independents were up to 45%, and what does this reflect? i think it reflects to a considerable degree, people's unhappiness with the way this government operates. only 27% of americans believe our system is working well or very well, and the rest think it's not working very well. and for the registration -- a

lot of people understand this, and a lot of people don't. these green states, there was an increase in independents over this period of time from 2014 to 2024. a few states where it went down, but basically independents on the rise. >> you know, and i was at a school event last night, steve, and talked to several parents who were just talking just in general, and talking about independents, and everybody seemed to come to the same conclusion, and i found it fascinating. they say where's the candidate that's economically conservative that believes the united states should be involved in the world, that believes that women should have control of their own bodies, and they just went down -- went down the list, and they were trying to make the

point, their view that you're making -- that you're about to make right now i think, and that is that people are becoming more polarized which is actually driving a lot of americans into looking for a third choice. >> yeah. that's part of the point, that you have the party's in the hands of a smaller and smaller number of people. it inevitably becomes the extremists. the democrats have maintained a more moderate stance, but trump, you look at the fact that many people have left the republican party as part of it. let's look at the trend because what's also happening is the red states are getting redder and the blue states are getting bluer. the increase in presidential registrations has moved toward blue states. they've gotten bluer as i said. red states have gotten redder. there are only four states that

have gone the other way. nevada, utah, pennsylvania, new jersey, and rhode island that have become more red and utah and kansas oddly enough have become slightly more blue. the chance is that as party registrations move, the red states get redder and the blue states get bluer. why does this matter? this matters because our elections are being decided in a smaller and smaller number of places. back here in 2000, 47% of our -- of the elections by county, and we're looking at this by county were decided by 20 percentage points or less. today, only 22% of our elections are being decided by 20 percentage points or less. that means all the rest is 80% almost of our elections are being decided by more than 20 percentage points in a given county which means that again, a smaller and smaller number of voters are essentially deciding our elections because we have so many uncompetitive races. >> so steve, your third chart

looks at primary turnout and i'm curious how you think this plays into all of this. >> so given what i just said about how more and more elections are decided in fewer and fewer places, the primaries become more important and you go back to my point about the decrease in party registration, and you combine that, and what you find is that the number of voters who can't vote in a primary because they are not registered for a party has gone from 15 million to 27 million, so in these voters, they're effectively shut down from deciding who the nominee is, and therefore since the nominee has become so much more important, less able to influence the outcome of an election, and then you talk about the fact -- you talk about turnout. so turnout actually in general elections has gone up a bit. we've succeeded in convincing people they should vote, 38% to 47%. turnout in primaries hasn't moved at all. it stuck down in 20%. only 20% of americans are voting in these primaries. in new york and virginia in the

last pry marks only 3% of people voted and these are people deciding the nominees in states that are often no, ma'am competitive effectively choosing the winner. >> we looked at around iowa when there was this shock that donald trump had won so big, and then you looked at actually he won just over 50% of a tiny turnout among republicans in the state of iowa. "morning joe" economic analyst, steve rattner bringing the heat, and bringing the charts. thanks as always. we appreciate it. sam, let's talk about the growing number of independents on the election which is what we're seeing right now. you kind of called it, the people, joe, talking at a school event, the normies. people who are not immersed in cable news 24 hours a day, and they want government to do things and stop the nonsense and actually get something done. what is the impact -- let's just look at this election right now. who does joe biden -- who does donald trump need to be talking to to swing them?

>> right. well, you know, i think there's, like, two types of independents. there's the normies who are people who just don't want to be totally engaged in the fight 24 hours a day, who want some sort of centrist model of government, and attitudely i think want people to chill out. those are the traditional independents and then there's independents who, you know, maybe support marjorie taylor greene or support rfk jr. who, you know, really have a weird convergence of policy interest and political interest and maybe some sort of skepticism vaccine interest. those are not your traditional third-party moderate independents. i want to make that distinction, but both of them will have a huge impact on this election. it's possible that rfk jr.'s candidacy will get, you know, double-digit support potentially in many of these critical swing states and who knows who that takes the most from. we haven't had that type of level of support since ross

perot in the election, but yeah. for biden and for trump, they're going to have to contort in certain ways i would expect to appeal to those types of voters and figure out which class of independents will take the most from their candidacy. coming up, a lengthy new playbook reveals how donald trump could run the country if elected next november. one of our next guests read all 887 pages and has some startling conclusions. "new york times" columnist carlos lazada joins us just ahead on "morning joe." lazada ahead on "morning joe. they expect me to eat like a bird. they are shocked by the amount of food i eat while losing weight. with golo, i don't need a cheat day because i get to eat the foods i like any day of the week.

correspondent keir simmons. keir, what more can you tell us? >> reporter: well, willie, i said an hour ago that these images that we would consider ordinary in the u.s. are extraordinary in today's russia and that's even more so now. there is now an image of alexei navalny in an open coffin inside the church. his parents among those who have gathered around him. the u.s. ambassador is there too, with other diplomats. the russian authorities harassing supporters right to the end. this morning, releasing the body later than promised, but these scenes outside the church are as stunning frankly as what we are seeing inside the church because as his coffin was carried into the church, as he arrived, we heard people shouting, calling out, "navalny." i'm just pausing there because you can hear them. [ chanting ] just remember that every one of

those people in that crowd and the organizers say that that is more than 1,000 people there, and every one of them are risking jail, potentially a fine, but they're risking arrest, potentially a fine, potentially jail, simply to be there. the kremlin making it clear that it is against the law as it said to attend unauthorized gatherings, and it has now said that any gathering outside of the church itself is not legal. so the kremlin not commenting this morning. again, once again on navalny's death, but again on navalny's death. no, we don't have anything to say to them. extraordinary scenes. you mentioned that the service is now over. that crowd that you heart chanting "navalny," they're now chanting "we will not forgive you." >> as you said, in putin's russia it's an act of courage

just to attend the funeral. some funeral directors would not prepare the body or organize the funeral because of concerns around their own safety. nbc's keir simmons covering the funeral of alexei navalny. joining us is ann applebaum. her latest piece is entitled "why is trump trying to make ukraine lose." >> i think there are two important points to make here. one is that this so-called christian leader vladimir putin has done everything he could to hamper a christian funeral. he refused to hand over navalny's body to navalny's mother. prison authorities threatened her. they wanted her to promise to do the funeral in secret. they said, we have the body, it's decomposing, there's nothing you can do. they made it difficult to get a

hearse. they made it difficult to hold a wake. they arrested people this morning. and yet people are coming out. i saw a clip this morning from the funeral, and people were chanting "you weren't afraid, so we aren't afraid." the second important point is that navalny would go on being a symbol of civic courage in a country that has very few symbols like that. and the funeral will undermine that point. there will be further demonstrations later this evening. navalny's family has called on citizens to go to the funeral. >> you write in your latest

piece about donald trump, "trump surely knows that ukrainians are low on ammunition. he must also know that right now no one except the u.s. can help. yet trump wants congress to block it. why? this is the part that nobody understands. trump wants to remain engaged with the world, but on different terms. if ukraine is partitioned or if ukraine loses the war, then trump could twist that situation to his own advantage. once the u.s. is no longer the security guarantor for europe and once the u.s. is no longer trusted in asia, then some nations will begin to hedge, to make their own deals with russia and china. others will seek their own nuclear shields. the united states will lose the dominant role it has played in the democratic world since 1945. all of this could happen even if trump doesn't win the election.

he is already dictating u.s. foreign policy, shaping perceptions of america in the world. a member of the german parliament told me in munich that he fears europe could be competing against three autocracies, russia, china and the united states. the bottom line is, isn't this for putin? or do you see some other ulterior motive here? >> i think it's really important to distinguish trump from the isolationists of a previous generation. the isolationists in the 1930s weren't planning to do business with hitler, at least most of them, certainly not the ones in the senate. trump has a lot of motives here. he keeps very quiet about russia and ukraine. he knows that russia is unpopular, and rightly so given the scenes we've just seen.

he knows ukraine is still popular in the united states. the cause of helping ukraine is supported by most americans. there's a majority in congress for supporting ukraine. the white house supports ukraine. and yet he has ulterior motives. i hear versions of them, some to do with oil, some to do with trading with russia. some may be personal. maybe he thinks putin will help him again in his election campaign. the point is, we have a leader of the united states whose loyalties are not to the united states. they're not to american national interests. they're not to america's alliances. remember, america's alliances are sources of economic advantage as well as security advantage. why do europeans buy so much american weaponry, american airplanes, american energy technology? one reason they do it is because they want good relationships

with the country that guarantees their security. once that's over -- and it is beginning to end as people see that trump is influencing the u.s. even while out of power -- many of those economic and political relationships will die as well. so trump is acting in his own interest and not in the u.s. interest. coming up, donald trump faces 40 felony counts in florida. a critical hearing today could determine when that trial gets under way. we'll have the latest on the classified documents case when we go live to the courthouse straight ahead on "morning joe." e straight ahead on "morning joe."

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when the transcript gets out, it's going to read well for him, but you have to parse the words for it not to read well for him? that was andy biggs of arizona embarrassing himself with that assessment of the transcript of the hunter biden closed-door deposition. if you wanted people to see it because it sounded better, you could have just had it become a public event like hunter offered. but okay. yesterday those committees publicly released the full 229-page transcript of hunter's testimony as part of their impeachment inquiry into his father, president biden. the document with some redactions addressed numerous topics, including hunter's laptop, his addiction, his father president joe biden and donald trump's son-in-law jared kushner.

hunter was trying to draw a contrast with the scrutiny he has received from the committees and questioned why they were not probing kushner for his own business dealings. when a lawmaker asked hunter whether he worked for foreign governments, he responded i never worked for a country, i am not jared kushner. with us as we kick off the fourth hour of "morning joe," is president of the national action network and host of msnbc's "politics nation" reverend al sharpton, and historian jon meacham. it's good to have you all with us for the fourth hour. jon meacham, i just want you to react to what we heard from andy biggs and also from the rest of this testimony which reads well

for hunter biden. when you hear it out loud, it sounds pretty good too. it sounds like he had a tremendous day yesterday given all the challenges and humiliation this committee has put toward him in the pursuit of impeaching his dad somehow. and yet they still have nothing. historical precedent, go. >> alice in wonderland, can that count as history? >> sure. >> they reached a verdict and they then tried to have a trial, and it seems to have fallen apart. you know, i was part of a wonderful project -- it wasn't mine, so i can call it wonderful, with jeff angle and peter baker and tim naftali four years ago. this was before we knew impeachment was going to be like major league baseball, there was going to be a lot of it.

one thing about impeachment, the framers meant it to be a genuine reaction to genuine high crimes and misdemeanors. it was an extraordinary step for an extraordinary situation. it was not supposed to be some kind of parliamentary mechanism to register your displeasure with the administration or the government of a certain moment. it seems to me that what the republicans have been doing is searching for a way to use this not because of the underlying facts, but because of an understanding of politics now as professional wrestling. they jumped on us, we're going to jump on them. and i think we have to see impeachment as a serious matter. this, as you say, seems to have fallen apart. and i think that one of the key issues going into the fall is what kind of party do you want

to support? do you want to support a party that will use any means at hand to stop someone not for a constitutional reason, but for a partisan political one? that's what the republicans were doing here. >> absolutely. so ahead of their likely 2020 election rematch, president joe biden and former president trump both visited the southern border yesterday, albeit offering very different messages. nbc news correspondent gabe gutierrez reports from texas. >> reporter: this morning, immigration front and center in the 2024 campaign after a dramatic split screen in texas with president biden and former president trump visiting the southern border about 300 miles apart at the same time. >> show a little spine. >> reporter: the current president in brownsville, texas, blasting house republicans for

torpedoing a bipartisan border security bill, but also offering this olive branch to the former president. >> join me, or i'll join you in telling the congress to pass this bipartisan security bill. we can do it together. >> reporter: former president trump blaming the biden administration for the influx of migrants. >> our country is being poisoned. >> reporter: and pointing to the recent high-profile crimes committed by migrants including the murder of laken riley set for today. >> joe biden will never say laken riley's name, but we will remember. >> reporter: crime has actually dipped in cities that receive the most migrants. still, a poll shows mr. trump holds a 35-point lead over president biden when it comes to which candidate would better handle the border, while

president biden holds a 17-point lead on treating migrants humanely. we met migrants at this bus station after they had waited months for an initial asylum screening. >> these are people's lives. these are people's futures that we are basically playing with or using as a pawn. in no way or form should we ever use that for political gain. >> it's very interesting. you actually have democrats working with really conservative republicans to pass the toughest border bill ever as far as security goes. the border security guards that were with joe biden yesterday, their union supports this as well. when you're talking about persuading people, talk about how you use donald trump and the

house republican cynicism. let the fentanyl ill, let the illegal immigrants in, and at the same time we're going to bash joe biden for being soft on the border. how do you get to those persuadables? >> it's very important to not get dragged into having the other side's conversation, to not be stuck in their frame. so earlier this year and late last year when this started to really heat up, there was a risk of republicans kind of ginning up this moral panic and biden and the democrats scrambling. but when you had that moment when the democrats actually called the bluff and said, here, we would like to do a very specific thing, a set of things, frankly, that look like a republican wish list from some years ago. and republicans didn't want to

do it. it creatd an opening to say we are the people who not only want to treat immigrants humanely, people who believe in a system that respects the idea that people move, people travel and people should be treated humanely when seeking freedom from persecution. but also we're the people of order. we're the people that want a system that works. we understand that in the age of anxiety a chaotic border is a very volatile issue. you've seen president biden being able to claim both the mantle of humanity and the mantle of order because of republican stupidity. >> we must remember that we had a record under trump of what happened at the border. the crisis at the border started under trump, which he did not

resolve in any way. we never saw the wall that he promised that mexico was going to pay for. we saw children separated from their parents, put in cages. i remember i went down there. i even did "morning joe" from the border. the first lady came down, melania trump with this jacket on. how do we forget there was a border crisis under trump that trump did not solve, that biden inherited? >> it's very clear for donald trump the people fleeing persecution claiming asylum in this country are not people he wants to help, but nor are the people that want a more orderly border. the people he's trying to help are himself and his cronies and his family and he's using this idea of the border to gin up a moral panic.

it's at the same time incumbent on democrats to show lots of people who are anxious that they get it and are offering solutions, are offering a real system instead of just the politics of resentment and grievance. >> i'm wondering as we pull back and look at the border crisis and donald trump's refusal to do anything, donald trump's ordering of mike johnson not to do anything, house republicans' decision not to do anything, the extremists deciding not to do anything with the toughest border security bill in the past generation. look at that. and donald trump cynically saying don't pass this, because it will help joe biden if the border is secured. the same donald trump saying to lou dobbs on national

television, "i hope the economy crashes, i hope america goes into a great depression, i hope joe biden is the next herbert hoover, because i don't want to be the next herbert hoover." i can't think of any precedent of a candidate openly saying i hope america crashes and burns because it will help my political prospects. >> look, i think one of the most important things that's been said in the past few minutes was a clip from the former president, who talked about the poisoning of our country, right? the poisoning of our country, which is part of his language about vermin, remember.

i just think this is so enormous and he throws so much of this out all the time that we become enured to it somehow. the 45th president of the united states just referred to a group of human beings as a source of poison for the united states of america. you can be for a tougher border. i am. you can be for a tougher immigration system that emphasizes legal immigration and does not reward illegal movement. i am. but to talk about human beings as a source of poison, let's just be very clear, we were told there's no mystery here. if things fall apart in a significant and lasting way, which is not impossible over the next couple of years, we were

told -- look, if you live in pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, arizona, nevada, pay attention. everybody has to, but let's be practical. there are only a few states where there's a delta of people who can be reached by reason and not just this elemental passion that the 45th president marshals for his own benefit. it's entirely for his own benefit, because they don't want to actually solve it. >> again, when he talks about whether it's vermin, using hitler's terminology, when he uses fascist terminology talking about the poisoning of the blood of america, this isn't him undercutting left wingers. this is him undercutting

conservatives. whether you talk about the "wall street journal" editorial page that's always supported immigration or you talk about ronald reagan's farewell speech, john, he spent such a great amount of time in his final speech to america saying we are a nation of immigrants. when we close the door to those immigrants, we close the door to our own future. we become older, we become more tired, we become less vibrant and we fail as a nation. there is a reason ronald reagan started his 1980 campaign in front of the statue of liberty and ended his presidency nine years later stressing the vital importance of immigrants to america's history and its future. >> i'm so glad you brought up president reagan. this is one of the most

significant things that's unfolding. i actually hadn't focused on it very much until i've been with liz cheney a couple of times recently and listening to her talk. what happened to reagan's party is really a fundamental question. can you imagine ronald reagan saying to moscow, oh, you want ukraine? take it. can you imagine ronald reagan saying that immigrants poisoned the blood of the country? it's just not a plausible hypothetical. you know, we focus so much on the rise of trumpism being more recent. this is a long-term thing. i haven't quite got my brain around it, but i'm thinking about it. if you're a republican of a certain age, you probably became a republican not least because of ronald reagan in that

campaign 44 years ago. scary. he transformed a lot of democrats into republicans, but that's not the party that you're adhering to now. it's just not. you know, you grew up with this as well. what happened to reaganism? >> well, a lot of things along the way. and reaganism obviously wasn't perfect. there were some flaws with reaganism. but in the areas that we're talking about, the pushing back against tyranny in europe, talking about inviting immigrants in, i think what happened to it was donald trump. i also think gerrymandering happened to it. as districts became more

extreme, there were republicans who just didn't feel like they had to reach out to, quote, the others. that's probably why they've lost seven of the eight last presidential contests in the popular vote. i want you to hear really quickly the last thing ronald reagan told the american people before he flew west to california into retirement. >> this, i believe, is one of the most important sources of america's greatness. we lead the world, because unique among nations we draw our people, our strength from every country and every corner of the world. by doing so, we continuously renew and enrich our nation. while other countries cling to the stale past, here in america

we breathe life into dreams. we create the future, and the world follows us into tomorrow. thanks to each wave of new arrivals to this land of opportunity, we're a nature forever young, forever bursting with energy and new ideas and always on the cutting edge, always leading the world to the next frontier. this quality is vital to our future as a nation. if we ever close the door to new americans, our leadership in the world would soon be lost. >> it's so interesting. that was in '89. in '90, '91, '92, you had silicon valley entrepreneurs who were immigrants. you look at intel, you look at the rise of google and other tech companies, fuelled in large part by what ronald reagan said right there. even as ronald reagan was saying

that, he was looking at the history from that date in 1989. he had no idea and few had any idea it would be a new wave of immigrants that were about to change the face of america and the world with an i.t. revolution. >> you know, it's rare for me to feel the emotion of wanting to smash the retweet button of ronald reagan's words, but what a moving clip you just showed. i think it gets to this notion that we shouldn't be having a defensive conversation about immigration that starts with some amount of border chaos. we should have our own conversations from first principles about this is an extraordinary country. it is extraordinary for many reasons. among the reasons it is extraordinary, it is a country built of the world, from the world, from every part of the world. i have had the fortune as a

journalist and a foreign correspondent to visit dozens of countries, and i've enjoyed all these countries i've been to. but i've actually never been to any other country that truly aspired to be a country made of the world. there's immigrants in france, but it is not like the united states. it is not a country made of the world. it is a country with frenchness. a lot of countries in the world, people don't even have birthright citizenship if you live there. if you're born there and your parents are from there, you still don't necessarily become a citizen. a chinese-american wrote about his family's been in china for thousands of years. his parents left, came to america. he said if he wanted to go back and become chinese, he couldn't. 5,000 years of living in china, one or two generations in the united states, becoming chinese is not a thing, becoming indian

is not a thing. becoming american is something we do to a million people every year. we've done that under republicans, under democrats. my family came here 47 years ago. i think we've had a pretty good run of contribution to this country except my own. >> please. >> we should not just react to whack a mole crises. our blood is better with the blood of many people in it. our country is better when more people are here. we have built everything we can because we have every kind of idea, every kind of contribution mixing together and people who don't have a heart, people who are miserly or people who are cynically trying to raise money off of hatred don't belong in the american story. >> that was perfect. >> it's beautiful. >> 100%. and, again, embracing this

concept, like you said, don't play whack a mole. it's extraordinary that my family has been in this country probably about 400 years. the people in my family through the years have probably been her 400 years. what i kind remarkable is that today somebody will raise their hand, a new immigrant, newly arrived, they will take an oath and they will become an american. at that moment, they will be every bit as american as anybody in my family who's been here for hundreds of years. if you don't think that is beautiful, then you don't understand america. rev, speaking of beauty, american beauty, i still think it's remarkable that it was black women, the very people who

have least reason at times, it seems, if you look at our history, to stand up and defend madisonian democracy. but it was black women in atlanta, it was black women in philadelphia, black women in detroit, black women in wisconsin back in 2020 that i believe and a lot of people believe, a lot of historians believe stepped up and saved madisonian democracy. you talk about just an extraordinary legacy and the extraordinariness of that, you saw it up close, rev. that's the america we strive to be, not the america of hate that donald trump is trying to promote right now. >> absolutely. i might say black women stood up, voted, stood in line for

miles to vote in georgia and in wisconsin and other places. many of them believing in an america that they and their parents and grandparents may not have lived in equally, but they believed in it anyway. as i watched as you played that tape of president ronald reagan, as a young activist, i marched on reagan, i disagred with that reagan. but what happened to reagan? the elements that he gave and the kind of moral standing that he gave in that statement and how he dealt with immigration, to go from that to someone that is the standardbearer of the same political party talking about poisoning people, i don't know how we ever get back to.

in the next few minutes, former president trump is expected to arrive at another courthouse, this one in florida, for a key hearing in the classified documents case against him. after months of legal back and forth judge aileen cannon could determine today when the case goes to trial, with the current start date of may 20th looking increasingly unlikely. joining us now from outside the courthouse in ft. pierce, florida, yasmin vossoughian. >> reporter: this hearing is expected to start around 10 a.m. a couple things we're looking at are the potential trial date to begin the juror questionnaire along with dealing some motions filed by the president of the united states and his attorneys. right now the date we're looking

at is may 20th. judge cannon has already indicated because of the amount of discovery that trump attorneys have to go through that date is likely to get pushed back. proposed by jack smith is july 8th now, donald trump and his attorneys proposing august 20th. when we talk about the juror question, when it comes to what they had in common, they wanted to know what bumper stickers people have or people that they admire when juicing jurors, things they did not have in common. they wanted to know whether or not they felt like these potential jurors felt like the election was stolen. and donald trump's attorneys wanted to know, if in fact, they voted in the election. one of the biggest issues when it comes to this trial date, mika, is overlap. we've talked about this many

times. right now we're looking at march 20th as the beginning of the hush money case in new york city. we know the judge in new york city had spoken to the other judge to make sure there is no overlap. whether or not aileen cannon is having those conversations with judges in georgia, new york and d.c. is also in question. then there's this question about this motion for immunity filed by the former president's attorneys here as well and whether or not aileen cannon is going to come back and say this trial is indefinitely delayed until we get a decision from the supreme court after april 22th. so that's going to be really the big thing we're going to be looking out for today. by the way, from what i hear, donald trump has not arrived as of yet, but likely to be arriving any minute now with this hearing starting at 10 a.m.

>> yasmin vossoughian, thank you very much for your reporting. yasmin mentions the supreme court agreeing to hear arguments for donald trump's claim that he is immune for criminal prosecution for his efforts to overturn his 2020 election loss. your latest piece is entitled "the supreme court's attempted suicide." you write, quote, by taking up whether a single american citizen is above the law simply by entertaining a question that shouldn't be, the right-wing justices are undermining the legitimacy of the court itself and the very notion of a nation of laws. the supreme court is attempting to end its own life as an institution above politics. if it has been moving in this direction for some time, this week it came to a head. this can only be read as a blow

to democracy itself. with this stay now in place, it's unlikely that any trial could be concluded and even more likely it will be delayed until after election day. of course, at that point, should trump win reelection, the case would not move forward at all. the justice department would be unlikely to pursue a case against an elected president. in his term, trump could stop the proceedings entirely, which of course is the plan. >> which some members of the supreme court seem to play into. nobody believes this supreme court is going to diverge from the holding of the d.c. circuit, which says donald trump can no use seal team 6 members to assassinate political opponents and still be immune from prosecution. this isn't even a serious

question that was asked of the supreme court. the d.c. circuit dealt the blow. so who knows, maybe far-right members of the court will haggle on a couple of issues maybe to justify this delay, which will help donald trump run out the:00. but at the end of the day, we know this court is going to rule and have the same holding as the d.c. circuit. this seems like pure cynicism to help donald trump avoid justice. he is a man above the law, and the supreme court seems to want to keep it that way. >> just the topic makes me feel nostalgic. you and i first had that conversation in 2015 about whether our institutions would protect us or wouldn't and under what conditions they would. and now we see this moment where

these various cases in florida and d.c. and georgia have come to a head. there were cases in the end. some people thought there would never be cases. we had all the false starts of bob mueller and everybody else. but whether or not they hold up some new and insane standard validating, you know, presidential assassinations and total immunity, which by the way, i'm not sure they won't carve out some kind of immunity for him. the delay is showing even in a system with some semblance of these mature institutions, everything is getting crushed through just delay and stalling and time. you know, maybe in a less sophisticated country, in a place like russia, you could just text the court and the court would just do what you want it to do. we're not at that level, thankfully. but delay in america has proved

in these last nine years to be an incredibly effective tactic. it doesn't matter if the verdicts are correct. at the end of the day, this is a guy who has waged war on the american system, and no court or no prosecutor to date has been able to get him in a way that protects the country. >> and justice delayed in this case is justice denied. >> i mean, he's immune. >> we'll see it in ft. pierce later on today, justice delayed, justice denied. you know, jon meacham, i'm surprised. there are a lot of conservative jurists even who are surprised. this is the same supreme court, after all, that did not allow donald trump to steal the election. federal judiciary 63-0 against donald trump stealing the election in 2020.

and yet they seem to be willing here to let him steal time and run out the clock so he can run without facing the justice that we all know he deserves. >> if i were chief justice roberts, i have had better weeks. we talk about the chief justice as an institutionalist. interesting question about are there five, six votes for institutionalism there? i think it's unquestionably a dangerous moment. you know, thomas payne wrote in the very beginning, in america, we have no king, the law is king. but the law is only king and the law is only legitimate if it is administered fairly. there's a crisis of legitimacy. we have to find a way within our

democracy for us to believe in these institutions, and that got a lot harder this week. >> it really did. it got a lot harder. the supreme court is so dependent -- and this is something that john roberts always has seemed to understand -- it's dependent on its legitimacy that comes from the people. you look at this decision, which again, they're going to affirm the d.c. circuit's holding. again, they may play with some words to justify this delay, but they're going to do that. but this undermines their legitimacy, just like overturning a 50-year precedent that 70% of americans did not want them to overturn and has led to 10-year-old girls having to flee the state of ohio after being raped by illegal immigrants. they are undermining their own

legitimacy every day. it's heartbreaking. >> thank you both very much for being on this morning. we really appreciate the conversation. coming up on "morning joe," we're going to have an update on the extreme weather out west from the devastating and now deadly wildfires in texas to the life-threatening blizzard hitting lake tahoe with several feet of know along with hurricane force winds in the sierras. "morning joe" is coming right back. joe" is cominrig ght back u emu & doug ♪ ( bell ringing) customize and save with libberty bibberty. liberty bushumal. libtreally blubatoo. mark that one. that was nice! i think you're supposed to stand over there. oh am i? thank you. so, a couple more? we'll just...we'll rip. we'll go quick. libu smeebo. libu bribu. limu bibu...and me. doug: he's an emu! only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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democrats agree. if you're 50 years or older, conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message.

it was meant to be open source. i named it open ai after open source. it is, in fact, closed source. it should be named super closed source for maximum profit ai. this is what it actually is. it's gone from an open source

foundation to suddenly like a $90 billion for-profit corporation with closed source. i don't know how you go from here to there. that seems like a -- i don't know. i don't know, is this legal? >> that was elon musk back in november talking with andrew ross sorkin about what musk claims was the original purpose of open ai and how it has changed since he helped found the groundbreaking technology back in 2015. now the tech giant is suing open ai and its ceo sam altman alleging they abandoned the company's founding mission to develop artificial intelligence for the benefit of humanity. andrew joins us now. andrew, wow. what happened and what more do we know about this battle? >> i think at the end of that

clip you showed, he says is this legal? i don't think i appreciated it at this time, but he was going to go find out. he has been frustrated about what's happened at open ai since he left the company in 2015. there was a little bit of a skirmish back and forth when he left about why he was leaving. nonetheless, he's been quite pointed in his comments about open ai. they have a reach in what's called artificial intelligence and we the public don't understand the technology and the control issues and governance that microsoft now has with that company. he put $44 billion into it originally, and he's one of the few people in the world that has standing, if you will, to bring a case like this. he obviously is one of the most well-heeled people in the world to bring this case. it is likely to be a blockbuster in so far as discovery. what is going on in this

company? how are they making decisions? there are a lot of folks who wanted to know these answers for a long time. it's not that he's asking for damages, though some people will argue this is a cynical effort to try to compete with open ai. his "x" has some ai into itself. i think this is a philosophical issue for him more than anything else. in many ways when peter thiel took on "gawker" through hulk hogan, i wonder if this could be a distraction for the company and boon to elon musk and the googles of the world and other big competitors. moving onto another topic,

it appears wendy's heard me. >> they did. >> backtracking a tad bit. i didn't like it. >> no. we said it. you said it. we said it on the air. there was no way this was actually going to work. economically it wouldn't work, because if there's a mcdonald's across the way and you raise prices, people are going to go across the street to mcdonald's or kfc. this is what they're saying about some of the backtracking. they may offer lower prices, in fact, in the off hours. the idea that they were going to charge you more, i mean -- >> that was not going to work. >> every friday night i go out and get mika a wendy's triple. >> no, you do not. >> we have a deep fryer. >> we have an air fryer.

it's not a deep fryer. >> but i have a deep fryer. we put that wendy's triple with bacon and cheese -- >> comes with an angioplasty on the side. >> and don't call it a milk shake. it's a frosty. >> look at that. >> how many oreos did you have last night? thank you so much. it's always great to have you. today the national urban league has unveiled its 2024 state of black america report. this year's report focuses on the civil rights act of 1964, 60 years later and the multiple attempts to dismantle it. the report has a special section dedicated to the biden administration. the league takes a look at the

promise of his campaign and what the white house has been able to accomplish over the last 30 years. >> as we all in the civil rights community and generally in the country look forward to the national urban league report, because we can talk rhetoric, but the numbers don't lie. tell us about this report this year. we want to know where we are. therefore, as we go into an election season, who can best handle where we are to where we need to go? >> first, the bottom line is the number for this year is 76%.

that represents an improvement of a slight nature over the last several years, but at this pace we're 180 years away from parity. number two, we are 60 years after the civil rights act of '64. has that act worked? it has made a profound difference in america. you and i or mika would not be on this set this morning but for the civil rights act of 1964. the changes to america are profound. but we have not come as far as we would have imagined or as far as dr. king and whitney young and those of the 1960s would have imagined. and that's the point. the third point is we're facing headwinds and a resistance music. attacks on dei, which are an attack on equal opportunity.

an attack on voting and gerrymandering and voter suppression in a thousand bills across the nation and a campaign of ugly hate and rhetoric directed at the progress we've made as a nation. we're strong and resilience and we've made some progress, but we're facing the biggest resistance we've faced in a long time. >> when we talk about resistance, in the last year with the supreme court, we have lost affirmative action, we've lost section two of the voting rights act and women's right to choose. to there have been some concrete legal setbacks, but at the same time we're seeing some progress that you in the report have a section on joe biden. when we compare biden, we have the unique opportunity to compare two presidents. trump was there four years.

biden was there three years so far. trump never promised black america anything, thanked them for not voting. biden said i wouldn't be here without you. >> the supreme court was changed by donald trump. these decisions, the attack on reproductive rights, the sanctioning of gerrymandering, the overturning of affirmative action are a fruit of the three justices that donald trump appointed to the supreme court. here's the facts. joe biden substantially fulfilled the commitments in his plan to black america with important unfinished work. police accountability is unfinished. a reparations commission is unfinished. voting rights are unfinished. many of these were thwarted in the united states senate by the filibuster, by manchin's objection to portions of the plan. we have to say that ketanji brown jackson and kamala harris

and the appointments to the judiciary and the federal reserve and the reduction in black unemployment -- when donald trump left office, the black unemployment rate was nearly 10. now it's down to 5%. when we look at the facts, what's clear is joe biden's record, he's substantially filled a number of his commitments. but there are some things undone, and we have to make that point as well. >> trump has given us some gold. overpriced at that. >> he identifies so well with the black community. rev, you've headed to salma, alabama, this sunday for a live politics nation right after the annual bridge crossing. who will be joining you this year? >> a lot of leaders will be live with me from selma, as well as

some of those that have kept this tradition going, it's like a rite of passage that many of us go to march across that bridge. that was the site of where 1965 john lewis and jose williams were beaten among others, which led to the civil rights act, and i think it's more important than ever this year in this election season to remind us that all of us did not just automatically get the right to vote. blood was shed. we're going back, the vice president is going to be there this year and others. we're going back there this year to say we must use our vote because it was paid for on the bloodshed on this bridge. >> president and ceo of the national urban league, marc morial, thank you. the group's 2024 state of black america report is out now, and rev, thank you. we'll be watching tomorrow. california residents are hunkering down as a historic blizzard buries the lake tahoe region. up to 12 feet of snow could fall

on the highest peaks of the sierra nevada mountains between now and sunday. 12 feet, which could also see wind speeds up to 110 miles per hour. the equivalent of a category 2 hurricane. this is a look this morning from the east peak of the mountain range, avalanche warnings are also in effect for the area through sunday morning. we're also following the massive wildfires in the texas panhandle. the smoke house creek fire merged with another massive blaze and is now the largest, most damaging fire in the state's history with over a million acres burned. so far two deaths have been recorded. the fire is only 3% contained. we'll be following that. and coming up, he reads 887 pages of plans for donald trump's second term just so we don't have to. yes, we'll discuss what "new

york times" opinion columnist carlos lozada learned from the documents and how far the gop is willing to go to push their agenda. we're back in two minutes. e bac. g these two every thursday. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

opinion columnist at "the new york times" carlos lozada. his new book is entitled "the washington book: how to read politics and politicians." we'll get to that in a moment, but first let's talk about trump's second term plans, if reelected. we're getting hints of what it could look like from the heritage foundation and their project 2025, and carlos, you've read all 887 pages of the goals. what did you learn? >> so there's a lot of rhetoric both in the book and just, you know, coming out of trump's allies on the right about deconstructing the administrative state, right? we have to take down the federal bureaucracy. what i found in this book is that really rather than deconstructing the administrative state, the folks who are developing this plan, this kind of project for a new

conservative president want to harness the administrative state, they want to use it, redirect it for their own political purposes. so you know -- and this is not some kind of conspiratorial theory. what i learned from reading the book that they published. >> and so carlos, let's talk about it because you know, we -- the first go around, it seems to me that donald trump stumbled and was his worst enemy at times. i always joked, sort of gallows humor but i said if we had to have nazis in the white house, i'm glad it was hogan's heroes, the nazis in hogan's heroes. this time they're coming, they're ready, and they want to do what steve bannon promised back in 2016, tear down the state. that's what he said. he said i'm a leninist, i want

to tear down the state. >> the existence of the book is an implicit admission that at least the early period of the first trump presidency didn't go well. there was a lot of kind of chaos and mayhem, and so they want to have an army, as they call it of committed, trained, prepared conservatives to go in on day one and introduce their priorities. and so -- but what i would emphasize, it's not really about, you know, tearing down the state as i think redirecting the state. they want to take agencies, for instance, that provide relief funds and, you know, redirect those toward areas that will support their voters. they want to take, you know, data analysis and research and have it focused on conservative priorities, so i think that the

rhetoric of dismantling the state, at least according to this book, is really not quite what they intend to do. >> let's talk about your book now "the washington book: how to read politics and politicians" and before you get to the how, explain all the different sources and resources you looked into to be able to have this insight? >> yes, so i take a very expansive definition of what is a washington book, you know. its political memoirs and political histories and journalistic investigations, but also, you know, special counsel reports. special commissions like the 9/11 commission, you know. supreme court opinions, all that kind of ritual documentation of washington is also what i think of as the washington book. these books get a bad rap. people often tell me i'm glad you're reading them so that i don't have to, but i think that, you know, especially say political memoirs, no matter how carefully politicians sanitize their views and their records and their experiences, no matter

how diligently they present themselves in the most sort of electable and confirmable light, they always reveal themselves. you know, they tell us who they are. they reveal something about their character and the character of our politics. >> and what is the tell? how do americans figure that out? >> so, you know, there are things that people say, and then there are things that they omit. one of my favorite moments in one of these books is about president barack obama, it's a book by one of his former personal aides reggie love. he recounts the time he forgot to bring obama's briefcase on a trip, that's a big no-no, heing thought he was going to get fired. this was during the campaign when he was first running for president. obama forgives him, and he explains one of the reasons he was annoyed about the missing bag, he wanted to be seen carrying something off the bag. he said jfk carried his own

bags, right? and just that little line tells me a lot about how carefully president obama cultivated his personal image. he was relying on one of our most myth ol jiezed former presidents to think about how he was being perceived. an example of, you know, understanding politicians by the words they omit is in mike pence's memoir, so help me god. he's recounting the events of january 6th, presenting himself as sort of this heroic figure who stood up for democracy, and we do owe a debt for that, but there's one moment when he's recounting president trump's video message to his supporters telling them finally to leave the capitol, and pence quote it is, and he quotes trump saying, you know, i know you're hurting, but we have to go home. we have to have peace. but in the middle of that quote, there's an ellipsis, and i was wondering like what did pence skip, you know, what did he