were racial epithets, sexual bigotry spray painted on to her house. the concern of her safety and her life is something that was testified to, and the fact that this job has led to the isolation and separation of her from her family and friends which was given credence and credibility of those statements provideed by her father, mr. floyd, that he'd only seen his daughter 13 times since all of these instances occurred. this is a cruel nature of statements and falsehoods that, for example, in these text messages that were purposely leaked to the media as relates to ms. willis' daughter subjecting her -- her position in school that she flunked out of college. which isn't true. which, in fact, she has graduated from the hbcu, but what's leaked to the media is the fact that she flunked out of

school and someone other than her father moved her. validity of which was never shown. and all the while ms. willis facing these have been able to do the work unrelated to this case which has shown in the fact that the murder right in atlanta and crime rates decreased while she's been in office. what was shown through the witnesses and the testimony that your honor heard there was no conflict in relation to -- i guess the relationship that transpired from, the relationship between her and mr. wade and that there was actually no evidence of a financial benefit that she gained as relates to the prosecution of this case and the ultimate

outcome of the case. the corroboration of all of that is the things that your honor is very much aware that she could have, i guess, financially benefited from, stretching out the case for lack of better words by the special grand jury recommended the 39 individuals be indicted. through her sifting through the special grand jury's report and all the evidence with the team that indicted the case, they only went with 19 of the defendants, which had she gone to, gone with all 39, there's -- based on the defense counsel's assertions, would have given her the opportunity to certainly find these financial gains that are claimed through the allegations of the defense counsel. more importantly, why would ms. willis repeatedly ask this court to set a trial date as soon as possible if her motive in

prosecuting this case was to continue to financially gain as alleged from the prosecution of this case? it doesn't line up. it doesn't make sense, and it doesn't make sense for a reason, because it doesn't exist. more importantly, this office has several multiple repo as well as large-skate cases like this one and much larger and a lot of high-profile prosecutions. if ms. willis' ultimate goal by hiring mr. wade was for her financial benefit, then she would put mr. wade on every single one of those cases and could certainly revel in the riches and lavish lifestyle that has been referred to by defense counsel. which there's been absolutely no evidence of. the evidence, she stayed at a double tree in napa.

i don't know that to be a lavish hotel. most go napa and want to lavishly experience it they go to four seasons things of that nature. not a double tree. the assertion she was living lifestyle of the rich and the famous is a joke, absolute joke. as it relates to what you heard in the secondary issue is the forensic misconduct, and for lack of better words, what has to be shown is that the statements that were made by, here about ms. willis related to prosecution of the case and ultimately guilt or innocence of the defendants and we have none of those statements. there's been no evidence. nothing provided to -- been provided to your honor as relates to ms. willis' specific statements made about any of the defendants and in relation to the guilt or innocence of any of the defendants. i forget which defense counsel

referenced 95% commiserate. her job instill confidence in the community how well she is doing as relates to her constitutional duties, and that was exactly done referencing 95% conviction rate in the previous year. that she was serving as a district attorney. more importantly, it's been, the allegations about race and religion being imputed in her speech and that -- those comments were directed at the defendants at this table, and if you listen to the speech those comments are directed to two elected or political officials, i believe marjorie taylor greene and -- ms. bridget thorne, who is -- a member of the fulton county board of commissioners here. she specifically used their names. i don't know that they -- my knowledge they're not supposed to be sitting at the table and i

haven't seen hem i them at my w. those allegations ms. willis committed forensic misconduct, again, there's no have a liddy to them, no evidence to them as relates to any of those comments, which this is an issue that judge mcburney previously rule and when these same allegations were alleged as it relates to extra judicial statements made by ms. willis and it involved a statement that the words "fake electors" were sade by ms. willis and he found absolutely no conduct impermissible as it relates to forensic misconduct. and -- i guess to drive home the point. at no point in any of the statements that were made and

that were -- that were, that are alleged here as it relates to the speech that she made at the church at no point does she mention guilt or innocence of any of the defendants. she, again, was merely responding to comments made by marjorie taylor greene and bridge it thorne to other political officials. therefore, making her comments not even close in the realm of any sort of forensic misconduct. what i find interesting is that defense counsel wants to make these allegations that ms. willis committed this forensic misconduct by the statements she made in her defense as to criticize the document and finally find hypocrisy interesting in the sense that we've had released by defense

counsel, emails between counsel released to the media by defense counsel. statements have been made by defense counsel, that in relation to this case. we had the unredacted version of she phone records released by defense counsel which is private and personal information causing the threat of those to increase. the most recent instance was the text messages that your honor hadn't rule and their admissibility prior to their release and it was made clear the ability to get the full chain was something that they were unable to do and figured a way. the minute they figured a way they released information to the media simultaneously turning it over to the state in accord.

for all reasons stated before, your honor, the motion should be denied because legal requirements that are required in order for the district attorney to be disqualified have not been satisfied. the defendants have failed to raise any issue legally or factually to satisfy the legal standard for disqualification. they must should an actual conflict. they've been unable to show that the prosecution of this case was at all a result of political bias which has been accused or accusations made as well as demonstrated that the prosecution of this case was motivated, wasn't motivated because of malicious prosecution and haven't been able to prove this case was one of selected prosecution for political benefit or gain. all allegations made during the course of what i believe how

this case started by the argument is that courts disqualify prosecutors based on institutional conflicts making clear the burden of the standard is very, very high that must be met in order for an elected district attorney to be disqualified and that burden, that standard, has not been met and actual conflict not shown, and more importantly, in conjunction with that there's been absolutely no evidence that a district attorney has benefited financially at all, but benefited financially in conjunction with any outcome, whether it be now or ultimately has released the prosecution of this case. and because of all of those reasons your honor, we respectfully request you deny the defense counsel's motion to disqualify the elected district attorney, ms. fani willis.

your honor, i think we have -- >> if that's what it says. mr. cromwell? okay. understood. all yours. mr. sadow. >> i'm going to do rebuttal specific rebuttal. one, state somehow makes an argument that we -- hi, there, everybody. watching for the better part of the day this proceeding in fulton county. just now you're listening to closing arguments at the courthouse in atlanta on the disqualification efforts to disqualify fulton county fani willis when her sprawling rico case against the ex-presidentable co-defendants. listening before the rebuttal began from adam abbate mounting

a defense that fani willis financially benefitted from the case appointing nathan wade as a special prosecutor. fani willis and wade testified under oath they were in a romantic relationship but it did not begin until after wade was hired. the defense shown no concrete evidence that willis profited from hiring wade and today the d.a.'s office described the defense's star witness as "disgruntled, vengeful speculator" nap witness earlier this week crumbled on the stand testifying he did not actually know in the relationship when it started. fate of willis and the entire rico case will soon be in the hands of the judge. that's judge scott mcafee. if he decides to disqualify the district attorney then her whole office risks losing this case against donald trump. bring in msnbc host and political analyst katie phang outside the atlanta courthouse. also joining us, former republican congressman, a friend, msnbc political analyst david jolly. katie phang, take me through the

importance of what transpired and tell us what might happen next. >> reporter: so we did hear a long presentation by a number of defense attorneys as to why the judge should disqualify fani willis, but you notice that during the defense's presentation of his closing arguments and then when the state just had the opportunity to get up and do it, the court actually peppered the defense several times with certain questions that indicated that he had some skepticism in terms of whether the legal standard had actually been met by the defense in this case. a couple of highlights i wanted to bring to your attention, nicolle, came from judge mcafee. one of which was really important. a question as to when could you make a determination as to when terrence bradley was lying? hess name brought up so many times. former defense attorney for nathan wade. supposed to be the star witness

for the defense. in fact, the evidence is reopened for purposes of bradley to have to testify again. however, bradley indicated he was providing pure speculation when he texted with ashleigh merchant, defense attorney political operative for the gop mike roggin. the thing we're focusing on is the idea bradley was supposed to the presented to impeach these witnesses. supposed to be able to take the stand, say these other witnesses like wade and willis et cetera would have lied or were lying on the stand. yet bradley didn't impeach anyone. in fact, he impeached himself when he said that the texts he sent were just based on speculation. another question that came from judge mcafee very telling. is the court supposed to police people that take the stand and lie? in that what you do with lawyers? send them down the street to the bar, what the judge asked. indicating what is he supposed to do with the idea wade and

willis members of the georgia bore lied? going through an academic exercise i think with a lot of these defense attorneys asking questions, but there's been i guess criticism, the word i would use, on social media and other places about the presentation by the state. it wasn't as, i guess, compelling yet in ways it was, nicolle. reason why is, you have to reduce this to just the facts and the evidence. there's no jury in this courtroom. it's just judge mcafee. the back and forth we saw between the state and the judge when it focusesed on the law was critically important. that's what the judge has to rely upon making this decision. he has to make his decision not base and any emotion, not based on whether or not he personally has an issue with what transpired between nathan wade and fani willis. he wants to focus on only facts and evidence. with the state getting up making legal arguments, that feeds directly into mcafee's questions

to the defense as to whether the burden, preponderance of the evidence standard that must be met by the defense has been achieved and at this point he really didn't have any strong very harsh questioning for the state versus i think what he had for the defense. really probing questions. >> and a movie i think called "while you were sleeping" sandra bullock stars. all this stuff happens and wake up. what? what happens? before i went out on maternity leave, people flipping on donald trump faster than, you know, the temperature's up before 32 in new york. and i come back and while i was sleeping, while i was away something that transpired in fani willis' personal life now has her sort of at the hinge moment of perhaps losing this case and perhaps the case against donald trump. sprawling rico case involving his efforts to overturn the presidential election and specifically his loss in

georgia, happened on an open phone line not a secure line very much in the, in question. what are your thoughts as you watch all this? >> yeah. nicolle, the whole world missed you. i missed you. the whole world missed nicolle wallace. >> oh, thank you. >> i don't know you missed that much. taylor swift now part of the deep state. donald trump part of the gold shoes. we're all trying to remember speaker of the house's actual name and democracy still going to hell. other than that, like -- pretty much how you left it. everything's fine. right? look, in this case for people not lawyers like katie phang and not skilled with the courtroom as she is, to the lay person, this sounds and looks a lot like the house republicans investigation of hunter biden. it's like what are we really talking about and what are we trying to get to the bottom of? because it has nothing to do with the actual indictment, the allegations of election tampering in the state o georgia. and so i think for non-lawyers and for people worried about

justice and democracy, you're rice to feel maybe accountability is beginning to slip away, because that is, this is one of those weeks between the high court's decision on taking the case on immunity now what we see in the courtroom, but i also say this. if the lawyers are actually arguing in front of the judge, whether or not the standard is appearance of conflict of interest or actual conflict of interest, once again you've lost the american people, but i suggests that hopefully justice actually does win the day here, because if trump's lawyers and the defendants lawyer arg gur the standard only needs to be appearance of conflict of interest it's because they know they failed to establish a real conflict of interest. that said, to katie's point, the judge has to consider the law and facts as he sees it, and this is kind of all or nothing for whether or not there's going to be accountability in georgia. hard to see this case surviving the disqualification of fani willis. >> have an answer to this big question within two weeks, the

judge just said. katie phang thank you for being there bringing great reporting. david stick around. when we come back, donald trump and special counsel jack smith in a courtroom of their own down in florida meeting with judge aileen cannon just when the classified documents case should go to trial. that story's next. plus russian opposition leader alexei navalny buried today in moscow. thousands publicly there to mourn his desk risking prison, arrest or worse at the hands of vladimir putin's police. the funeral the kremlin tried everything they could to stop from happening. navalny's life and death symbols of courage in a place where most have been silenced for a long time. later in the broadcast, a rare sitdown with chief impeachment who led the case against the president, warning about dangers of the second presidency. those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere.

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the ex-president asked a judge to save him in the classified documents case with both donald trump and special counsel jack smith in court today. judge aileen cannon held a hearing on when this case should go to trial. the disgraced ex-president's lawyers today turning to a

brazen argument best summed up like this -- how much legal trouble is donald trump in? in so much legal trouble, in so many jurisdictions he cannot possibly be prepared to go to trial in the coming months. attorney todd blanche saying "no reason this trial can't start until late november." very conveniently, "late" makes it the day after the election. arging preparing trump for case and the hush money case ongoing is unfair. some of the most pointed language of the hearing prosecutor jay bratt criticized jump's lawyers proposed in thursday filing. if cannon does not push the trial until after the election trump's lawyers suggested could schedule to begin in august. bratt says that was a subterfuge for the former president to seek further delays and achieve his primary goal preventing a trial before the election. "what it really seems to me fake

dates and bad-faith dates. we just need to bring the case to trial this summer." adding no reason whatsoever for delay and have no problem prosecuting trump closer to the november election. jay bratt telling cannon doj's unofficial 60-day policy on taking steps that could affect an election doesn't apply to any cases that have already led to criminal charges. of course, that includes this pun. joining our conversation, former deputy assistant attorney general for national security mountain nbc legal analyst and former top national security official department of justice, and still with us, david jolly. brandon, let me start with you and let me actually, because i'm sort of, i didn't go to law school and i regretted, drained from the week's news content. let me turn to the national security side of the story. you've been ex-kwez it lit elegant on.

former prime minister had to say malcolm turnbull on the show yesterday about just the specter of a second trump presidency. >> imagine countries being reluctant to share their intelligence with our country? >> well, you could. i think it's, you know, puts enormous stress on relationships. you know, the very good friend of mine david petraeus often observed the only thing worse than fighting a war with allies is fighting a war without one, without allies. so the reality is the united states unlike china and russia, has a broad range of alliances in nato being i guess largest and most important one. when trump was president first term he sought to unsettled those. pulled out of some very

important global agreements, the climate agreement for example. he wouldn't participate in the. >> translator: pacific partnership. thankfully shinzo abe were able to keep that going without the u.s. nato, the single, most important in a military strategic alliance. the america, threatened to pull out of that and fascination with putin, of course, the adversary, really puts in question the viability of nato. now, this is -- you know, the problem with that, with these arrangements is that once you undermine the trust in them, the language, doesn't make -- you don't have to amend article 5 of the nato agreement, but once people feel that the united states cannot be counted on, is not consistent, and trump -- trump actively seeks to undermine that confidence, then all sorts of terrible

consequences could ensue. >> so a voter deciding whether to vote for trump or biden. say the voters will have on their menus come november. nothing less than the global world order is on the line, and with that voter, when they sgee the vote, what they do in the booth. seems the mar-a-lago documents sas so open and shut on questions of law bill barr can't keep saying donald trump's goose is cooked. how does that end up to trump's strategy of delay, delay, delay? >> hearing that clip, i think it's a good level set reminder why this case is being brought in the first case, why cases involving the mishandling or leaking of classified documents are brought, which is the way to ultimately protect classified information is to enforce instances when individuals willfully, knowingly take and

mishandle the classified documents, in this case allegations are the former president took and withheld willfully hundreds of very sensitive documents, and part of that goes to the point of the clip you just raised which is, it's not just the damage of, for example, disclosing a program, a method of, a source of collection. it is how it impacts our relationships with allies, and their ability and willingness to share information, and one sort of additional broader point as well which is you talked about the special counsel's point about election interference and sort of the allegations that this case can't proceed over the summer, over this time frame it would interfere with the election. it's actually the opposite. right now the allegation that's been made is that the former president engages in this conduct. the way to eliminate that quote/unquote interference is

for, in fact, resolution to occur. for the former president, for the justice department, to present their case before the election so that the voters have that information before they vote. >> mary, let me show you, i think the other thing that the former prime minister speaks to is the brazenness with which trump, he was talking in that interview about his disdain for angela merkel and his in fact chewation, creepy, the way he acted around putin. let me show you the natural extension of that, all this behavior and conduct, mishandling of classified documents happened on tape in an interview. let me play some of that. >> well, with milley, let me see that. i'll show you an example. he said that i wanted to attack iran -- isn't it amazing? i have a big pile of papers, this thing just came up. look --

this was him -- they presented me this. this is off the record, but they presented me this. this was him. this was the defense department and him. >> wow. >> we looked at some. this was him. this wasn't don by me. this was him. all sorts of stuff. pages long. look -- wait a minute. let's see here. look -- >> these were the -- >> prepared by the military and given to me. you can probably -- >> we'll have to see. try to -- >> declassify, figure out -- >> yeah. as president i can update, no, i can't, but this is -- >> so mary, consequences of catastrophic to the world order. the evidence is smoking gun basic confessions on tape waving things around. how are we in this nation we're in tonight? >> you know, yeah, you ask, like, why does this case, why are we worried that this case

might not get to trial and a lot of that, frankly, has to do with the judge assigned to this. judge aileen cannon. at every turn she has been overly solicitous to put it mildly towards mr. trump and his arguments including viewers will recall before she even had been assigned to the criminal case. because at that point of time just a search warrant executed, mr. trump went in and brought a civil case that got assigned to judge cannon to try to prevent the department of justice from reviewing the classified materials. not only for purposes of their criminal case but also for purposes of doing an intelligence review to find out how much damage had been done to our national security. he went into court to try to prevent the department from doing that and she sided with him. she was reversed by the 11th circuit and then ultimately when the criminal case was actually brought, the indictment brought,

l and behold, of course, that kate went to her. and knew that was a chance. in a district with a few judges. decent odds she would get it, but my point is, even since before the case was in front of her she's really, really given mr. trump a huge amount of leeway in terms of his arguments and arguments in that he accepted it. she's spent a couple of months consider be seepa section 4 motions. these are motions under the classified information procedures act that normally and routinely ex-parte under seal. that means just the government and the judge, without them being available to the public or frankly even to the defense attorney, where the department can go over to the judge and say, here are documents that we think we need to provide to the defendant in discovery. here are things we think we need to redact because of high sensitivity. she drug that process out so long that's one of the reason we're now delayed. remember this case was supposed

to go to trial may 20th. so i am encouraged by some of her reasons rulings such as denying the defense request to see everything that the government submitted with respect to that4 -- section 4. we have to worry about the motions filed now by the former president including a motion he should be immuned from pos prosecution because he made decisions to allegedly designate classified information as personal property while he was still president. therefore, his argument is because i was president at that time this is within the scope of my official acts and i'm immune. never mind that it's ridiculous to suggest you can decimate classified information as personal, designate. this is an argument that may get traction with this judge. i think we have to be worried about that. i don't know whether it's a bad thing or just a lack of

experience as a judge and certainly a lack of experience working with classified information or national security cases, but the very troublesome. and brandon is exactly right. harm is not just limited to potential actual harms from programs and sources and methods we may need to change because of all of these documents we don't know who they may have been shared with at mar-a-lago, or when he's, where mr. trump is trying, because he's mad at general milley, trying to share documents with, you know, biographers just because he wants to. not even for any legitimate purpose. because he's mad at general milley. not only is the damage done from all of that, but our allies as the former prime minister said, you know, they see this. they see mr. trump standing in polls now and potential he could actually become the president again. they put that together with things he's been saying recently about putin, about nato.

and that's just terrifying to the rest of our allies and partners. i think the potential risk to our national security is extremely grave. >> yeah. i think david jolly at this point. i joked in the last block about feeling like i came back and it's, the scene of "while you were sleeping." what's clear when you step away and come back is that trump's won, maybe winning, the better verb tense. it's not just that he delays, delays, delays, audacities never match. asymmetry of the '26 campaign trump willing to do things so disgusting and abhorrent, block coming out of megan -- megyn kelly. he's adapted that to his legal framework and there's never a government response that results in anything other than trump checkmating the trump trail, the

mar-a-lago case, which is so open and shut that, you can't get between bill baer and a camera talking about this because he wants to tell everyone trump is done. i'm back, and i know what seepa means thanks to brendan and mary and so lucky to talk to them we want to know what jack smith is thinking and doing. jack smith thinks and does what brendan and mary do. what's clear is that on a wing and a prayer trump faces accountability and the american people see the evidence, ajute kate i adjudicated by a jury of trumps peers. >> nicolle, the wheels of justice grind slowly but exceedingly fine all feeling the slowly. we're not seeing the exceedingly fine part. if anything a bit of obstruction, even with those wheelings of justice, in part, large part, because donald trump is a defendant, offering very

audacious arts part of the most adashs strategy of all, return to the white house and grant himself absolution tox ask voters to give him political absolution. poort that of strategy forestall proceedings as long as he can. i think in the mar-a-lago case mary's exactly right. we almost just need to assume that that case is going to slowly become irrelevant either because judge cannon is willing to do donald trump's bidding or just intimidated by the moment. relatively new to the bench. more high-pro file cases and afraid to take the lead. whatever it is, it's clear in the mar-a-lago case that one's being drug out. look, in the jack smith january 6th case, supreme court wants to drag that out as well. still a scenario we could get a bottom of a verdict kind of as the october surprise, or it is such a pregnant question it becomes a question for voters in november. i think the most intriguing part are the state cases that are beyond the reach of federal absolution. there is nothing donald trump

could technically do even if he is re-elected. where the bratt case and fani willis case come in. seeing what they're trying to do in the fani willis case. we don't know. as america, if you are on the side of democracy and want to protect democracy, you get one vote and got a voice to get your neighbors out to vote with you. we can't rely on the court system but i suggest that the wheels are still grinding. just very, very slowly. >> and let me be clear. i don't know there's anyone that does what i have the privilege of doing every day. more interested in, or who admires more the people who do the hard work of trying to apply some sort of legal accountability to someone like donald trump. but i think since the first day of his presidency, in coving those clashes with the fbi director to comey to 23 months covering the mueller probe and efforts to undermine credibility of the investigators and the actual substance of that investigation and volumes one and two, what is clear is that

it is an asymmetrical contest. it is not proven possible for the rule of law to catch donald trump committing crimes increasingly in a brazen way, and i wonder, brandon, how that lands? whether that's clear to your former colleagues inside the department of justice? >> you know, i actually would quibble with that characterization. >> please do. >> you know, i like to argue with you nicolle. >> i love it. while you're why you're here. >> you have a department of justice that charged a sitting president with two separate series of crimes in two separate districts. like that is a department of justice doing everything in its power to hold an individual accountable for those actions nap is not -- you know, there's -- arguments sometimes

of delaying investigation. those are significant, unprecedented steps in terms of accountability. you're also seeing in those two cases the department of justice doing everything it can to bring those cases as fast as they can in the mar-a-lago case special counsel's office not just in terms of dates but in terms how they've been responding to the judge's request and motions, done everything they possibly can to have these cases tried before. so i do think whether or not those cases occur, i still think they are remarkable and even if they don't come to completion the allegations themselves are remarkable and i do think it's worth noting in terms of the hearing to getting to where we are really what we've learned from the filings today in the mar-a-lago case is this case can happen this summer. >> yeah. >> i know that -- the former

president's attorneys did a little bait and switch in terms of its august date, but the truth is, this case can happen this summer. the question ultimately is whether the judges will press the parties to have the case this summer, but that is certainly sort of my takeaway from the hearing. >> again, pointed out, the judge aileen cannon, the parties to have that trial this summer is the 64 million dollar question hanging over all of it. i appreciate this very candid cutting right to the grist of all this with me on my first chance to talk to you, brandon and nice to see you again mary. thank you both. david jolly thank you for spending the hour with us. we when come back extraordinary shots you have to see. scenes out of russia. thousands of people and took courage to do this. take to the streets to honor the life and death of alexei navalny in the face of an oppressive and brutal vladimir putin. we'll bring you that story next. .

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arctic prison colony. despite a predictably heavy security presence perhaps plent to intimidate as much as anything else people lined the streets to bid a final farewell to the man who so bravely challenged vladimir putin. inside an open casket. those are navalny's parents lower portion of your screen, left. after the funeral was over before taken to a moscow cemetery to be buried those same crowds outside chanted "navalny, love is stronger than fear. no to the war and russia will be free." a member of, a number of russian-based western diplomats attending navalny's funeral. a statement released by the u.s. embassy reads in part "alexei navalny remains a shining example of what russia could and should be. adding his death is a tragic reminder of 9 lengths the kremlin will go to silence its

critics." former director for european affairs joins us for the national security council and also joining us, "why is trump trying to make ukraine lose?" get to that in a second. your thoughts today on what the world saw? >> reporter: i'm struck by just how much we take for granted. >> yes. >> people engaged in a simple act of respect for a man who gave his life for russia, who was a true patriot, who tried to engage people in politics. tried to show people there could be a different kind of russia. they risked an enormous amount just to come to his funeral. all of their faces recorded. there were police all over the place. all kinds of things done to discourage them from coming. navalny's body held back from his mother. very difficult to get a hearse. the graveyard buried blocked

off. you know, so everything was done to discourage people from coming and yet people came. i think it's a real lesson in, you know, in civic courage for all of us. look what people have gone through just to be in the street, just to be there, just to say, we believe our country could be different. >> you know i think a lot of people who aren't as knowledgeable as both of you are may have learned about some of these fulcrums in navalny's life and how he ended up in prison and ended up dead from the documentary made about him. and that he decides to go back to russia really underscores, anne, your point, that he was a patriot. >> he was absolutely a patriot. he talked about himself as a russian patriot. he, one of the last major articles he wrote was describing the kind of russia he would like to live in. he imagined a parliamentary system. he imagined, you know, the

possibility of liberal debate. he really tried to think through how russia could change and people believed him and they wanted to support that change. just that right now the strength of the other side, the strength of the dictatorship is greater. >> you know, the -- putin needs the navalny feud to be personal, but what it really is, it's philosophical and ideological and he envisions manage more democratic. what are your thoughts today? m democratic. what are your thoughts today? >> well, nicole, good to have you back. >> thank you. >> congratulations on the new baby. >> thank you. >> so, it's -- i like to understand and kind of what this might mean, this is a really important moment, and what it might mean is that putin again miscalculated. he's done that multiple times during the war, launching this

attack on ukraine was certainly a miscalculation. i think what he's seeing is that over two years he had to repress and suppress the population and he felt tat population sufficiently cowed that they wouldn't come out on the streets. he was emboldened by u.s. domestic politics, the fact that trump invited putin to attack nato, the fact that the house of representatives is paralyzed by a captured republican party and he thought this was the time to murder alexei navalny. all that turns out to not be quite as simple as he thought. having all these people show up under these conditions shows a great deal of courage and frankly the fact that they've overcome their fears, and that may make putin pause for a minute, at least briefly, he has to reevaluate his tactics and make sure he's as safe as he thinks he is. i wish our own domestic leadership, our own republican party would show the same

fortitude, same courage, the personal risk that the population in russia shows to support our u.s. national security interests, to support ukraine, that's one of the most important things that could happen and i hope it's a consequence of this unfortunate event in the murder of navalny. >> an extraordinary moment in our own politics, capturing some of this, as mitch mcconnell acknowledging in his retirement speech this week that his party isn't where he is on national security. the republican party used to stand loudly in public and in private against vladimir putin. it is now largely an apologist party for him and it's seeped into the trump base. his supporters are at rallies, my colleague vaughn hillyard captures them saying i think putin should have ukraine if he wants it. a horrifying thing to seep into our population. ann, i want to read some of your new piece. you write this, trump and the people around him are not isolationists in the old fashioned sense.

an isolationist wants to disengage with the world. trump wants to remain enganled with the world but on different terms. he wants a deal with russian president vladimir putin and maybe this is what he means, if ukraine is partitioned or if ukraine loses the war then trump could twist that situation to his own advantage, perhaps some speculate trump wants to let russia back into the international oil markets and get something in return for that. but that explanation might be too complex, maybe he just wants to damage president joe biden, or he thinks putin will help him win 2024 election. the russian hacking of the democratic national committee was very beneficial to trump in 2016, perhaps it could happen again. i should ask you, perhaps it is happening again? it's possible. >> well, you know, the russians have a permanent non-stop campaign against the united states, against our national security policy, against our president. and it takes different forms at different times.

some of it can be quite silly, okay, they use trolls, twitter is full of people with strange names and anonymous accounts who, you know, who write, you know, vile things about the united states, or who say ukraine can't win and so on. some of it's a bit more serious. we now know that some of the allegations against hunter biden come from somebody who had deep links to the russian state security apparatus. it looks like, you know, some of the rumors that seeped their way into our politics about the biden family and so on seem to have their origins in russia. those are part of the same thing, all about discrediting biden but also about discrediting democracy. it's in russia's interest that the united states becomes a weaker dmoigs because the united states is an important symbol for other democracies around the world, including ukraine itself, but also for european countries, or many countries around the world, and the weaker we look

and the worse our system is, and, you know, the more divided we are, you know, the better it is for them. and so, they'll do almost anything, and some of it sometimes looks like throwing spaghetti against the wall and see what sticks. some of it's not serious. some of it's pretty well thought out and some of it works. >> you know, colonel vindman, the stakes seem so much higher for vladimir putin and donald trump in '24 than 2016, vladimir putin is engaged in a losing war in ukraine, donald trump faces four criminal indictments against him. what, if you were still in government, would you be girding for? >> well, so fortunately we don't have to learn that much. i think both putin and trump have frankly a consistent playbook. it's shocking that the same technique that trump looked to kind of tip the scales in his favor in 2016 soliciting our adversaries, russia and china, to tip the scales in his favor,

leak documents, are the same things that trump and the republican party, that's the shocking part, the entire republican party are willing to resort to now. you have the republican party, swaths of the republican party, winning agents to the russian intelligence services, carrying forward the messages from the russian intelligence services to deliver the goods, to deliver, you know, these false accusations against the bidens were corruption. in that regard there's -- we should know what to expect. that's not going to be the challenge. the question is, what do we do in response? can we hold trump accountable for using -- for engaging in corruption multiple different impeachments? i think the fact is that the american public is likely to do that. we are seeing a pattern, consistent pattern, at least for me, 2020, 2022, 2023, these off cycle special elections where the population is voting on the topic of democracy. we just need to continue to

remind them what the stark difference is between the putin view, assassination of his adversaries, and what trump really wants to bring united states and the prospect of frankly a -- of a democracy and a better union. >> yeah, it's so interesting. you're absolutely right. democracy made its way into top three voting issue, and now the republicans are -- seem intent on offering this very clear contrast, in their embrace of autocratic regimes of politics and policies. alexander vindman and anne applebaum, it's a privilege to talk to you both today. there's much more news ahead. the lawyer who helped lead the democrats quest for accountability, barry burk our special guest right here at the table.

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in new york. it seems like you have to be actively running for president against donald trump to be a republican official willing to tell the truth, and publicly call on upholding the rule of law as part and parcel to a fair election in the united states of america. that was nikki haley putting plainly and simply what two-thirds of all americans believe today as we convene here, including 38% of all republicans in this country. they agree that verdicts in those criminal trials against donald trump should be reached before voters go to the ballot book in november, it's a reality that is appearing to slip out of

reach a little bit with each passing day this week. now, the supreme court's ruling that it will hear trump's presidential immunity claim, almost puts a nail in the coffin of that being possible in both those federal trials. as touches on there, there are two massive consequences, of the trump trials being delayed until after the presidential election. one of them is that the voters are not going to have all the facts as a jury of trump's peers would adjudicate them or render them before they have to cast their own ballots in november. voters deserve to know that if one of the two choices on the president menu is a convicted felon. and second, if the trials are pushed back, and trump should prevail in the november election, they never happen. trump would then most likely use the tools of the presidency to shut down the cases that he on the stump publicly smears as political prosecutions. and that means the american people would never see the

evidence. it would be put before the jury in those trials. they would never have an answer, on whether trump is criminally liable. so, this lack of accountability we're witnessing, and we now risk in the courts goes hand in hand with donald trump's goal for running for office again as well as his goal in terms of what he would do once he got there, with the rule of law, and that is to model this policy around what an autocrat would do. he wants an autocrat's justice system, one that enables him, and does not act as a check on his power in any way. when he can weaponize, to target and pursue his enemies, not just shield his friends. what we saw from the nation's highest court in the land, the supreme court this week, actually inches him further toward achieving the goal on both parts, shielding himself, and using it as a weapon. this ruling could end up being either wittingly or unwittingly a major step forward for trump

and the nation's slow walk toward american autocracy. we begin the hour with defense attorney barry berke who helped lead both efforts for house democrats in the impeachments of donald trump. hi. >> great to be here. >> is this too bleak or blunt of an assessment? >> i think everything with the former president is bleak but you have to look at it wide-eyed. as a trial lawyer, my day job who tries a lot of cases we sometimes refer to legal terrorists, those are people who aren't interested in following the rules, donald trump's whole strategy is delay, delay, delay, and legal terrorists who are trying to avoid the merits can at times get away with it, at times. i would say, though, for all those folks who said he should be held accountable, including senate republicans, there are all these cases out there, and you would think that someone running for president would want to have an opportunity to address charges that they tried to prevent the peaceful transfer. >> someone innocent. >> someone innocent. the question is, seeing what's going on, i do think there's an opportunity for trials, i do

think the supreme court can rule in this term, and there could be a trial in d.c. on the most important case. if a president seeks to use his power, and use the position to interfere with the peaceful transfer of power, there could not be a more important case, and i see why the american people want to see it, but i also think people shouldn't just stand on the sidelines saying, oh, i hope that trial happens. >> yeah. >> all those facts, again, should be used in every way possible, including his refusal to address it in court. >> help me understand what happened this week. this didn't seem to be a decision where the law was in question. why do you think the supreme court agreed to hear arguments in an argument that basically amounts to i'm a king? >> you know, it's complicated, and you wish the supreme court would have simply said denied, sir, go ahead, we can consider it later. nobody is above the law. you don't get an early preview. interestingly the special counsel sought the supreme court's early involvement and they turned him down. they said, no, have the court of

appeals rule first, it gave him cover saying both sides asked, so we're going to do it. you also ask, why did they have such an elongated schedule, they could have done it more quickly but they did what they did and we can't change that. one of the things that authoritarian leader does is he or she weakens all the institutions around them, whether it's another branch like the senate or the judiciary, and we're seeing some effects of that right now. but i think if people should still hold out hope, and encourage, and put pressure, publicly, for there to be a trial after the ruling by the supreme court. >> let me just play the devil's advocate. i've sat in this chair and i've told people, viewers, to have hope that robert mueller would get to the bottom of the question about whether there was coordination or shared mission between russia and the trump campaign. and then, with one fell swoop, bill barr went out and said free and clear, trump declared himself exonerated, and 23 months of legal efforts to do what you just described, down the drain. and then the two impeachments,

where truly the facts weren't really in question. i mean, you had republican insiders, as fact witnesses, not disputing anything that the democrats were alleging. and in both instances, for political purposes, trump was acquitted by senate republicans. and then you had a crime committed really on tv, with people watching, on january 6th. with our own eyes we could see trump supporters beating and hurting law enforcement officials with the goal of overturning an election he lost, phone calls to brad raffensperger, the calendar is tight. chutkan could shorten this, and it could go faster than ever. why does it keep coming up short for the public and a win for the donald trump? >> the goal, i love your devil's advocacy, you're so good at it. and i'm going to push back. >> please. >> you're pushing my buttons. i was there for the first investigation of the russia obstruction, and there for the

impeachment based on ukraine, which we now know how important it was. you can say this, the senate did not have the courage to carry out r their duties, the founding fathers imagined a president like former president trump who would violate his oath. they didn't imagine senators of the same party who would do the same. what they did in the first impeachment investigation, they amplified and showed his conduct, they showed as i violation of the rules, showed what he did and the american people spoke. they spoke in 2020 and voted him out. and they had evidence. now, we don't know the final story in january 6th. we had a full impeachment where we made sure people couldn't say they're tourists, we put it all out there and seven republican senators showed courage, and there were many more who said we proved the former president violated his oath but they let him off the hook because he was a former. at the time speaker mcconnell said that there's a criminal process to try to deal with it. >> merrick garland.

>> but you've seen such a profile of lack of courage, they now are succumbing to the power pressures of politics, all except some people who are courageous like liz cheney. >> right. >> but again, the events of january 6th were shown in that impeachment, and shown by the great work of the january 6th committee. the american people saw it. people should be talking about it. they should be talking about donald trump not wanting to be held accountable, and, again, he is in this delay schedule, the courts will not save us. you're talking to somebody who in the first investigation waited two years for enforcement of a subpoena. >> right. >> in the obstruction. >> right. >> so the court process has some problems at times in dealing with another branch of government or someone who was in that branch who violated the oath. but i think you should say this entire process, including the criminal cases, including donald trump refusing to publicly say i want a trial, because i want the american people to see what happened before the election, that can all help the american people do the right thing. say, we are judge and jury of this person, we are going to

make sure he's not president again, in which case all these trials can happen after. so, yes, i understand why people are discouraged because some of these things should not have happened in our judicial system but i think you have to see that the american people can still see all this, and you should still amplify these charges, i think some people see his most ardent supporters become more fervent in their support of him when these cases happened, but they forget that who we're really talking about are not the very strong advocates or opponents, it's everybody in the middle, the folks in the midwest, the folks all over who may have voted republican a lot, or are independents, but are concerned about what they're hearing. they don't necessarily show up in the polls, but those are the people who will decide the election. so my hope is, while the courts are doing what they're doing, that everybody takes these allegations, takes the facts of what are happening, takes his refusal to be heard in court and state his defense, and have it judged by a judge and jury, use that as evidence why he's unfit to be president, why it's not only a test of him, but our

entire institutions, so i hear you, but i do think this process has been helpful, i think the criminal charges has amplified how anybody else would be charged with a crime, no one is above the law, and while it is discouraging, and disappointing, that the trials are been delayed, the hope is it will have other effect by hoping to show he's treated no different than anyone else and the american people should see that he engaged in alleged crimes for which the evidence is overwhelming, and make a decision whether he's fit for any position, let alone to be president of the united states. >> so you're saying it's a conversation that should happen in the context of the presidential contest? >> it has to happen everywhere. ideally it will happen in the courtroom but these issues should be amplified publicly as well. the evidence is overwhelming, as someone who spends my time defending charges and the like it is hard to imagine a case stronger than the january 6th case, stronger than the confidential document obstruction case, it is overwhelming and it's challenging because not everybody -- most voters don't

follow it like you follow it and like i follow it so the hope is you can take the evidence, even if there's not a full trial on these issues, and make sure that the american people understand what's at stake here, what conduct happened, and i'll tell you, from me in particular, here's what i feel most strongly, this is a -- this is a movie series in which the sequel has already been written. every time donald trump gets away with something his conduct gets much worse. >> right. >> he got away with obstructing -- >> the call with zelenskyy happens the day of mueller testifies. >> he got away with obstructing the russia investigation, he then tries to extort the president of ukraine. he thinks he gets away with extorting there because he's not convicted at his impeachment trial, we then, we then have january 6th where he tries to use his power to interfere with the election and tries everything else. if he were to assume that office you should -- the american people know, they've already seen this movie, they know now what's going to happen. his conduct will get far worse, our institutions, our democratic system will never recover.

and we also know he has weakened the guardrails, while the courts did step in after the 2020 election, the legal challenges, there's almost only so much they can do if the american people were to vote him into office again and all the people who were surrounding him, not one of whom support him now, his entire cabinet everyone he's ever served say he's unfit for office. no people like that will be back, the true believers, the people who don't care about our institutions, who don't care about her democracy and the rule of law, yes, it's a scary, scary time, but the hope is that all of these cases, all of this evidence that's out there will help, the voters who we don't hear so much about, who are in the middle to make the right decision. >> with all of that stipulated, how do you explain how closely divided the country seems to be between -- and it's early, i don't cover the polls, you won't see a lot of poll screens in the polls during these two hours, but we do still live in a pretty closely divided country, with as you said all the facts of impeachment one, all the facts

of impeachment two, the work of the january 6th select committee, the indictments now, and all four of the criminal cases, public documents, how do you explain the closeness of the politics in our country? >> i wish i could explain it. i will say, though, that you see people want change, right, if you look at all the people who voted for president obama because they wanted change and then voted for candidate trump because they wanted change so now there are people who think they want change. the hope is, though, that if everybody focuses the attention on how unfit he is. >> yeah. >> not just the issues, but all of these issues, that folks will say whatever change you might want it can't be this guy. and not only is that not change it's more of the same that we saw in this prior administration, but far, far worse. >> when you look at the fact that there's -- i mean, ron desantis is like barely a footnote in the books being written about the republican primary this cycle but he did adopt this platform of removing

the independents of the fbi, weakening it, moving it out of washington. when you see this infection of distrust and dislike, i worked in government. i mean, the fbi is -- at least when i was in government, certainly not any sort of left-leaning anything, i mean, it is a law enforcement agency, after 9/11 it became the never again fail to connect the dots agency, it changed the most, it became the most sort of boots on the ground in terms of protecting the homeland for threats abroad after the terrorist attacks of september 11th. to now view the right wing pathology, really, as including the fbi in some conspiracy, is so depraved. i mean, how do you stitch it all back together? >> well, it's a good question. what we're seeing is there are two different problems. donald trump will say anything, do anything, if he thinks it will help him. he gets caught in a crime. somebody else committed a crime,

it's the fbi's fault, not his. what is most shocking to me, and he's done that all his life. what's most shocking to me, all the people prepared to go along with it. >> right, the enablers. >> i go back to republican senators, who literally some of them were crying during the january 6th impeachment when they saw what was happening at the capitol. they were so incensed when they saw donald trump sitting in the oval office causing great harm to his vice president, refusing to intervene, refusing to tell his supporters to leave. they were mad, they were angry, they were thinking hard about convicting, they didn't think they'd see him again and now, now they're accepting what he says, they refuse to condemn the craziness. that just shows we don't only have a donald trump problem, we have a politics problem, folks are not willing to rise above their political interests they're so craven for power they're prepared to sacrifice our democracy, our entire system of government for their own positions in government. you see somebody like liz cheney. i don't think i agree with her on a single issue except about the importance of democracy,

when i was there for the second impeachment she encouraged us to use her words and that's leadership and that is courage. my hope is, because donald trump's not going to get any better. his positions in this election are only going to get more extreme and call for more people to stand up and i look, you're so great at that, hosting people who were conservative republicans, who have shown the courage, and stood up. and the hope is that more of them from his administration, and elsewhere, will speak, and it doesn't wipe away their prior actions but it does help to enlighten how extreme another trump presidency would be. >> and as someone who, you know, has the job of convincing juries, of persuading, i mean, what do you think that conversation looks like over the next eight months? >> the big thing is, you have to say it, you have to say it again, and then say it again. so, while -- there's a debate about what should the democrats do, yes, you have to talk about our platform, you have to talk about all the good things joe biden did, but when you're talking about donald trump, you can't just talk about his bad policies.

you have to make sure there has never been more of an unfit candidate for any public office, whether it's dogcatcher, or anything else, than donald trump. and you can't stop doing that, i think people get discouraged, as you say, because of these cases, because of the delays, because of the impeachment votes, but at the end of the day, the people you're trying to persuade are not folks who are so craven about holding onto their power, you're trying to persuade regular people who ultimately, like jurors, i think want to do what's right. so, i do think at the end of the day, when people get in the box, there are the majority of people who want to do what's right, and if you let them understand why there's nothing about donald trump that's right, whether there's a criminal trial by the time of the election or not, i think that will resonate with the voters who count. >> thank you so much for being here, these story cascaded in this week, i said we need you. when we come back, we'll pick up barry's last point there, even if the institutions fail to hold trump accountable in a timely manner, in a twice

impeached disgraced ex-president does not stand trial on federal criminal charges before election day we'll talk about how democrats and anyone else who supports democracy and accountability can make this case to the public. and to the voters, who are now once again going to be called on to do something, to stop the country from skidding toward autocracy. two experts in political and brand messaging will be our guests plus just like the dog that catches the car, republicans are proving over and over again they're trapped in a political mine field entirely of their own making. amanda zarowski at the forefront in the fight for reproductive freedom and health care will be our guest again later in the hour. deadline white house continues after a quick break, don't go anywhere.

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talking the last couple days about the inability to treat a powerful political figure the same way any of us would be treated, how that is a disservice to voters who have a right to expect the accountability question to have been answered before they head to the polls again. and so it would appear that it now falls on us to determine whether anyone in the united states of america is above the law and above the norms of the democracy. we have to deliver accountability if we still believe in it and a decisive blow to donald trump's effort to destroy every aspect of the rule of law in america. it is a heck of a message for democrats to communicate in a

crowded and distracted national civic conversation, it could be the center piece in a long list of reasons and arguments why 2024 is now truly the most important election in the history of our country. joining our conversation, msnbc political analyst democratic strategist cornell velcher, and friend of the show, johnny deutsche. you're one of these few people i kept the conversation going with while i was away. i know you're in a similar head space. tell me your thoughts. >> my thoughts are, welcome back, america missed you, we need you. and anybody who hasn't seen pictures of isabella, she's just beautiful. >> so sweet. >> you and i are of like minds on this, in that let's just be grown-ups and say fair or unfair those trials aren't going to happen and use that as a tool to say i'm mad as hell, going to take the words you said off

camera, don't be sad, be mad. democrats have a tendency as a party to be a little whiney. >> sad, they get sad. republicans get mad. >> get mad, start playing dirty. here's the message that's really, really simple. that you can use the word democracy, you can use the word autocracy, but start to say -- i say to people, aren't you worried about democracy? and they get this blank look on their face. here's what it means. do you remember when you had a guy like milliwould not take orders from trump and start to put of his own troops on americans, that will change independent military. independent judiciary, we're also seeing what that would look like, guess what, you can't depend on the rule of law anymore, and independent federal communications commission, you can't depend on that, certainly not on an independent justice department. freedom will end, things like women, birth control, that will go away. whatever the freemds that you have in this country now, whatever you like about this country, will change, make no doubt about it, and see what's happening in russia today, a funeral where an adversary got

killed. who's to say that can't happen here. not even your imagination run wild, you have to listen to the things he says, the to the people he admires. those messages, angry messages need to get out there. >> he tried in all three categories. let's have that conversation. i remember covering it here, nbc had great reporting, he wanted the pentagon to build cages, there were cages, at the border. the pentagon resisted and it didn't happen. that's what he wanted, second term he figured out how to make that a reality. he wanted andrew mccabe, and jim comey, and pete strzok and liz paige prosecuted. bill barr stood on the line there, and that felt precarious. there would be no bill barr in a second term justice department. and, you know, our mutual friend michael cohen did go to jail. throw him back in for writing a book. >> going to jail again, they'll come after him again. by the way, i'm afraid. you know, i've been one of the most outspoken guys, you know, it's interesting, somebody said

to me, are you afraid if he gets reelected? and i hadn't thought about it and like he's going to come after joe and me, might come after you. this is what people are not comprehending. here's the campaign the democrats need to run, and i've been thinking about this a lot. there are four people that need to step forward. kelly, mattis. mcmaster and milley and there needs to be a general campaign where these generals who have worked with him need to turn to the american public and turn to the camera and say you don't understand how scary this can be. we really can go over a cliff here, these people patriots need to start to stand up because that's who america listens to, the right campaign, with those four guys, and you continue to put the message out, you're going to lose control of your bodies, women, immigration will even get worse as it did the first time with donald trump, our democracy is really, really, really on line here, and our way of life will change. get people -- scare the shit out

of people. >> all four of those men saw it up close and personal. mattis quits for cause over a dispute over u.s. foreign policy and national security. i think john bolton writes in his book about his concerns that u.s. foreign policy was corrupted as it pertained to turkey and egypt. he's sought to refer some of these concerns to bill barr at the department of justice. i mean, really, the best fact witnesses to trump's colossal lack of fitness are his last cabinet members. >> i think that's right. but i don't think you actually have to go back to that, i think you can go forward. well, first of all, let me double down and echo that. we have missed you. we're glad you're back. >> took me five days to get this pissed off. i should have stayed off a little longer. it's nice to be back. >> to that point, we can go

forward to what he's saying right now. someone talking about the insurrection act on day one, someone who's talking about right now, you know, rounding up his political enemies. and for, you know, a lot of you, especially young voters holding back right now, what do you think america looks like when the president is moving the army around the country to put down your voice and to put down your protests? so this gets real. but to that broader point, look, it is true that democrats have not done a very good job historically of leaning in to the politics of fear. i would argue that your party has done a much more job of that, but it is also a very strong mobilizer, and but i think many of my democratic friends right now are really beginning to understand that this is a real moment where it's not pretend, right, this man is talking about the insurrection act, this is scary stuff, and lean in to the idea that we have

to mobilize americans around fear. now, i'm having a very insider talk with you two insiders on this, but from a strategic standpoint, you know, we democrats have always leaned more into hope and the transactional politics, right, if you give me your vote, i'll give you a higher minimum wage. this is throwing a lot of that out the door. i work for a guy whose campaign was literally hope, and change, but this has got to be a different kind of campaign and how do you reach, we've talked about this before, how do you reach and engage that middle of the road moderate woman voter who i think is going to be the women who, in fact, do save us, and have this conversation, that really sort of puts them in a position where they're afraid, they're afraid of what happens in america, if trump is elected, and so they -- they move toward biden even more, and to those young voters, who are really holding back from biden, and if i sit in a focus group, you

know, another minute and hear them talk about, he's too old, when the other guy is -- is going to take away their rights i'm going to lose my mind. you have to put for them a real scary vision of what happens to america if, in fact, donald trump is elected. you have no other choice. you can either have the old guy who i would argue is effective, or you can have a guy who's literally going to put insurrection act together on day one, and start to rip away your rights and your freedoms. >> i mean, we have to do this every day because i think that if i had more time, i would get you to pull that out. i mean, i see what's happening, you know, the republicans fall in line, the democrats fall apart, right, and i see some of these fractures and stressors, but the very ability to go out and protest against the leader of your own party, if you disagree on his policies in the middle east is what you go to jail for under donald trump. i mean, and again, not to go back, because i think you're right to go forward, cornell, but what he wanted to use the insurrection act for the first

time was to criminalize protests around black lives matter for the murder of george floyd. and so, if he's there again, there -- milley won't be in the oval office saying we can't do that. stephen miller will be in charge. the idea that a policy debate intra the democratic party is more important than the ability to protest anything you hate or believe in your souls is against the ideals or the best version of this country. you wouldn't be able to protest anything if trump does what he says he's going to do, never mind the ideas he comes up once he gets there. so i feel like we can do some good work here, and maybe have some fun in the coming weeks and months, if we pull those strings a little more specifically. so i know it's hard to say no on live tv, i hope you'll do that with me, cornell and donny. >> >> we can do it. the american public needs to understand how scary this is. >> think they will, though. >> i'm mad as hell. watch network, watch that movie

peter finch, stick your head out your window and say i'm mad as hell, not going to take it anymore. >> we'll do it though, put some of these things together, i think that will be productive. >> we'll do it. >> donny, cornell, very nice to see you both, thank you so much for your kind words. when we come back, republicans are facing some dire political fallout from another act of their own making, the overturning of roe v. wade, amanda zurawski is now taking action to have access to ivf will be our next guest. don't go anywhere. guest don't go anywhere. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis. it can help you get clearer skin. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting. some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts, or weight loss.

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>> we're on the side of women, and same thing on the abortion issue, more and more i'm hearing about 15 weeks, and i haven't decided yet, also, we've got it back to the states where it belongs. we want to take an issue that was very polarizing and get it settled and solved so everybody can be happy. >> so, everybody can be happy, happy first day of women's history month, everybody, that was donald trump in an interview just last night. he's moved off of his beloved round number of 16, and last night floated a 15-week national abortion ban, it was an interview with fox news's sean hannity. it's the kine of ban that voters have weighed in on already and have been crystal clear about and saying no thank you, in every election since roe v. wade

was overturned. the devastation of a national abortion ban cannot be overstated. if republicans gain control of congress and the white house women living in blue states who had believed they were protected, and who were protected in a post-dobbs america would have their access to reproductive health care dramatically curtailed in this 15-week ban would do nothing to help women in medical emergencies whose lives are on the line, women like amanda zurawski, kate cox, and the countless other women who have not come forward whose names we will probably never know but whose lives have been changed forever. it also only adds to donald trump and the republican party's political nightmare, after ruling by the conservative justices on the alabama supreme court just two weeks ago that a frozen embryo is considered a child, endangered access for all women to ivf treatments. drawing even more attention to

republicans' highly unpopular positions on reproductive health care, abortion access, and ivf. the decision has been a nightmare for women, for patients in alabama who are now left uncertain about whether they will be able to continue with their ivf treatment, it's also raised fears for women living in other anti-abortion states about what their states are going to do if they'll be next to attack ivf. joining our conversation, the lead plaintiff in the texas abortion ban lawsuit, amanda zurawski and with me at the table co-host of msnbc's new show the weekend and the amazing friend and colleague who hosted this very program while i was away. alicia menendez. hi there, my friend. i want to spend some time at the table with politics, and i want to spend some time with amanda. the dog catches the car, they

pee in it, the republican party is carrying out the metaphor. >> there was a question about whether or not this issue was going to be salient going into 2024, voters were still going to be motivated by this issue. if there was any outstanding question about that, then the alabama supreme court has delivered us a very clear issue, and all of the polling that has followed has made it crystal clear, which is about two-thirds of americans don't support what is happening in alabama. it has been deeply motivating for democrats, you've got about 65% of democrats saying they know about this, that they are motivated by this, and donald trump and his 16, maybe 15, i don't know, that's what the people are saying, ban, it doesn't get him outside of the base of support that he already has. >> he's playing with like the 12 to 15% that are excited about post-dobbs. >> correct, so now they are more excited but he didn't need them. he already had them. he's out on the stump bragging

about dobbs. and so, this does not move the needle for them, and it does move the needle for democrats, in terms of both democratic enthusiasm, and in terms of independents who might not know which way they were going to go. >> amanda, your courage in coming out and talking about what has to be one of the most horrific things that's happened to you and your husband, and your family, i think changed the conversation. i think for the republicans to have any chance, people like you and willow, your daughter who you lost, can't exist. tell me how you assess this moment, with something you warned about i remember at the time, but ivf now in a very real way threatened by extreme republicans. >> well, first of all, i want to say welcome back. it's great to see you. and congratulations to you. >> thank you. >> i know that this topic is very near and dear to your heart as well. >> of course. >> so thank you for giving space

to it. so, you know, i think what this ruling in alabama did is really expose the deep and layered dangers of what happened when roe v. wade was overturned. i think it's communicated to a lot of people that the republicans will stop at nothing, and we knew that this was coming because we live in this world, and i think other people are seeing it too. and i think they're starting to question now, okay, what's next? is it going to be surrogacy? is it going to be contraception? and the answer to those questions is very likely question, and i think it's motivating people to vote democrat. >> do you ever sort of marvel at how anti- -- i guess the anti-women piece is less surprising, but how anti-family, how anti-life the republican platform really is? >> i think they don't even know what they're doing. i don't think they know what they're talking about because take my situation, for example.

on the one hand, they're telling me that i can't get the abortion that i need in order to prevent nearly dying because they're pro life. but then on the other hand, they're telling me that i can't use ivf to create the family that i so desperately want. they're just not making any sense, and, you know, nothing that they do at this point amazes me or surprises me anymore, but it is clear that they don't know what they're talking about and they have created quite a mess. >> i have a million more questions for both of you. i have to sneak in a quick break, all three of us and more will be back on the other side. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game.

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make now the future at godaddy.com/airo as if on cue, joining our conversation president and ceo of reproductive freedom for all, mini timaragio is here. amanda and alicia are still with us. minnie, you did warn us it wasn't going to stop at overturning a right women had enjoyed in this country for 50 years, the natural extensions were contraception and ivf. but now that it's here, it always seems to have like a second drop politically for republicans, and then they scramble to put the tooth paste back in the tube. how do you assess this moment? >> you know, i think that as we've all said we saw it coming. it does not make it any less painful, and no one on our side makes any pleasure in the i told you so, but we have some

strategic lessons to learn from all of this. we can't put the tooth paste back in the tube. it's impossible. but we can be very clear-eyed and vigorous in our advocacy going forward. i'm actually out in southern california doing a bunch of campaign activity. we have a very clear conscience to drive with house republicans who could not even get their act together to support ivf, you know, in the past few days. so we have some really clear opportunities here to communicate with voters. we can be very direct. we have the brave women like amanda coming forward and telling their stories. but we also have a new generation of younger voters and activists who are very animated by this, as alicia mentioned, we've got a really strong momentum on our side and we cannot flinch. we have to be very, very forthright in our advocacy. it's an opportunity at a really painful cost but we have a moral obligation to take full advantage of it. >> amanda, i think one of the gifts of you coming forward and

sharing yo you are pain with the country and the world is that it's never abstract, right, we're not just talking about poll numbers and republicans losing in deep red kansas, we're talking about women who today, there is no solution, right, pregnant in texas, and it is a health risk. you've gone through ivf, and the physical and the financial and the mental and the emotional toll of infertility, to even land you inside an ivf clinic, and now your embryos are a question mark, can you have them, can you move them? what are the stories that still come in to you from women? >> you know, when i heard about the alabama ruling my heart just shattered for all of the families and all of the women who live there and who you and i know in the world of ivf, in the world of infertility, the science is so precise. it literally comes down to the hour. and so, to not have access for,

you know, more than a week is just absolutely devastating. and i -- i know that most families in that situation probably didn't want to talk about it and so i felt compelled to share what i know. but i have heard a lot of stories from really brave folks in alabama who spoke up about their cycles being cancelled or their embryo transfer being cancelled or their inability to move their embryos and it's just absolutely devastating. but, you know, to mini's point the fact these people are able to draw on their strength and courage to tell their story while they're in the middle of it, that's what we have to do to move the needle. >> mini, what is there to do to help and support women in this situation? where their ivf cycles, amanda's right, it's a certain -- it's a minute you have to take a shot, a certain day, and time, you have to be there for an embryo transfer, a certain hour that --

i mean, there's no room for politics inside of ivf. what can be done to support these women in these clinics? >> right now in alabama there's limited opportunity, but as we know there was legislation that went to the governor that she signed, we have lots of different organizations reviewing and doing analysis of the strength of legislation, quite frankly we don't think it's enough. but it does provide a window for folks to try and move forward with the clinics to try and the providers to try and move forward and if needed challenge again to the court, but as amanda knows and as a lot of our colleagues throughout the south know that is no comfort to folks who need this right now. there is not immediate relief for folks in alabama other than to leave the state. so, much like the abortion access crisis, frankly it's a similar situation. when you need that abortion care, you need it asap. you can't wait, and you have to leave the state. that is what most alabama families are looking into,

alternatives outside of the state. >> mini and amanda, very much to be continued, this conversation. i don't know that there's anything more important for women happening in this country, and certainly politically it has the same level of import. thank you so much, alicia sticks around with me, a quick break for us, she and i will be right back. and experiences for hundreds of thousands of fans with reliable 5g connectivity. now's the time to accelerate your business. (♪♪) grace didn't believe in magic. but her daughter was happy to prove her wrong. you were made to dream about it for years. we were made to help you book it in minutes.

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give youg the time to be with your family and it feels like such a wild co da to our time together, that i came back from ma alternative leave with my second child. you come back, i welcome you back, and what are we talking about? we're talking about the most intimate and important decisions we make for our families and the fact that the government -- >> totally. >> republicans, specifically, want to have a lot of control over how those decisions are made, i mean, these -- you keep getting republican lawmakers on tape saying i didn't understand all this. this is real complicated. it's not real complicate today women and families who are using ivf to build their families. how many girlfriends have you sat with, crying, because their embryo transfer didn't go the way they wanted it to go. because they took out another mortgage to do one more round of ivf, these decisions are so personal, so emotional, and so political. and everybody gets that. >> literally, everybody, including republicans living in

places like kansas. >> yes, yes. >> and amanda, coming out, she breaks my heart because of what she's been through and she has to be out there, we need her. >> and to recap, she was denied medical care by her state, she developed sepsis, as a result her future fertility is jeopardized. what does she do? she moves to her plan "b." pursues ivf, and because of politics, has to move those embryos to another state and there are a lot of amanda zurawskis out there. >> my chair is our chair. all right, we will be watching alicia along with her co-hosts on their show the weekend tomorrow and sunday morning, 8:00 a.m. eastern. we'll be right back.

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