good. point they made a probe into gaetz said that he witnessed him attempt parties involving, quote, sex, drugs, and a whole lot of it. and then of course there was this point that was raised by fox host steve doocy, of all people. >> speaking of republicans, james comer, who ran the committee, he apparently left the hearing early and did not ask a single question. how weird is that? we >> thank you. that is who won the week. thank you alice randall and that's tonight reidout's. all in with chris hayes starts now. >> tonight on all in. >> i only need 11,000 votes. i need 11,000 votes. >> a hearing that could derail trump's prosecution in georgia. >> it may already be possible for me to make a decision. >> as the indicted ex president tries to delay his documents trial. >> the presidential records act. i have the right to take stuff.

>> tonight, florida, fulton county, what it all means for the election timeline. >> i think all of the cases should be dealt with before november. >> then, how the republican front runner is effectively mulling a nationwide adorning abortion ban. >> number 15, i haven't agreed to any number. i'm going to see. >> as united states of priem court so extreme there about to end a trump era gun safety law? when all in starts, right now. good evening from new york. i'm chris hayes. it was a big day at the end of a hugely consequential which for the trials of $1. trump it all began on wednesday. i was speaking to you that night. we've got the stunning news from the supreme court that they will take up donald trump's argument that he is immune from being prosecuted for trying to steal the 2020 election. but what was stunning was that the court took more than two weeks just to issue that

ruling. from perry 12th, when trump brought the appeal, to february 28th. instead of taking it up quickly to move this incredibly important case along, they sat on it, eating up time as the clock ticks ever closer to election day. and then, of course, there was the real kicker, they will not even hear arguments until the week of april 22nd, seven weeks from the day they announced they were going to take the case. supreme court has, frankly, given trump exactly the hail mary he was hoping for. they are continued delays have created a real possibility the american people will not know definitively as a matter of law whether one of the presidential candidates on the ballot is criminally guilty of trying to overthrow a democracy. of course that is just one of four pending criminal trials of the ex president. the case in york about trump's hush money payments to silent silence adult film actress right before the 2016 election, says she had an affair with trump, is set to become the first to go to trial on march

25th. and today there were key hearings in both of these other two cases. the one in florida and the one in georgia. so in georgia, a fulton county judge her closing arguments in an effort to disqualify district attorney fani willis from the case about donald trump's attempts to steal the 2020 election in georgia. trump and some of his 18 codefendants claim, willis has a conflict of interest the should kick her off the case because of a romantic involvement with the lead prosecutor in the case. both the willis and the prosecutor nathan wade have admitted to the. fair this week waits for former law partner, who testified in what was bombshell testimony, the relationship began early than willis and wade say. well this week he admitted that we'll actually know he had no idea. >> i never witnessed anything. so it was speculation. i can't tell you anything

specific specific if that's what you're asking. >> you can't tell me anything specific about why speculated? >> now. this was however many years ago, i don't recall. no. i don't. >> at the end of today's three- hour hearing, the judge said he's gonna have a decision in the next few weeks. we're gonna wait and find out of fani willis and her officer disqualified, which is to completely up and a case against trump. even if it goes ahead it will be a significant challenge to schedule the trial before november. that has always seem to be the case given the complexity of the multiple codefendants. we are no closer to knowing when a trial will begin in trump's fourth case about his retention of classified documents and his attempts allegedly to obstruct justice. both the ex president and special counsel jack smith attended today's hearing in person in front of judge aileen cannon. trump, of course, appointed can into the federal bench. her very first ruling in this

case was so transparently hackers, so utterly lawless, it was later unanimously reversed by the appellate court above her. she has reacted favorably to trump's obvious attempts to delay going to trial. so we had every reason to expect to go along with whatever started the ex president wants. she may prove us wrong. you want to give her some credit. but that's the way things look. now jack smith and the government propose starting on july 8th. trump interest laying first suggested august wealth, three whole months before election day. but you will be utterly shocked to learn that today trump's lawyers argued that, well, starting the trial this year would be, quote, unfair to him as a presidential candidate because it would take him off the campaign trail. trump's lawyers also cited his impending trial in new york is a conflict since he expects to be tied up there from late march until may. true to form, and judge cannon also brought up, of her own volition, another issue that could help trump delay. you may remember this one from the 2016 election.

the justice department's so- called 60-day rule that prosecutors should not take any investigative action in the month proceeding an election that could affect the outcome. smith's team told judge cannon the doj has already reviewed it. the rule does not apply to charges that have already been brought. so, court adjourned. donald trump headed right back to mar-a-lago. no new decisions made. judge canada not even give a timeline for when she might rule on anything discussed today. as i've been telling everyone, keep your eyes on how long it takes. every one of these judges know, everyone involved in this process knows that donald trump is attempting to delay so that, unlike any other criminal defendant literally in the entire country and in the entire country's history, he can get rid of his cases by being elected president. an interesting take away, though, for criminal defendants across the country, is that you should try to figure out a way to appoint the judges in your case. sure seems to be working for

trump. acting solicitor general of united states, katie phang and bissen b.c. legal correspondent who's been following for proceedings closer than anyone, and katie, let me go to you first on georgia. what happened today and where do things stand now? >> we are awaiting a ruling from judge scott mcafee, the presiding judge at the close of today's closing arguments he indicated about two weeks and then we will see some type of ruling from him hit the docket. but do you know, chris, what happened today was something that took a long time to get to. we talk about the wheels of justice moving slowly. sometimes they are painfully moving slowly. in a case where we thought was actually going to move pretty quickly. why? because the district attorney, fani willis, has been demanding a trial date for months now. but three hours of closing arguments was heard, and the defense got every bite of the apple to be able to get up to

convince judge mcafee that they had met the burden of proof on the preponderance of evidence to show that fani willis should be disqualified as a district attorney. however, chris, i think questioning from the judge indicated that he is some skepticism that the defense has met its burden. number one he said the suggestion of wrongdoing does not meet a preponderance of the evidence standard. and number two, he had questions about the star witness, terrence radley, the former defense lawyer for nathan wade who took the stand twice during this evidentiary hearing the last four weeks. and terrence bradley, as we know, when he took the stand, said he was speculating as to whether fani willis and nathan wade had begun their relationship before he had been appointed a special prosecutor, when wade was appointed special prosecutor. why is that important? when the judge, and i know neal will attest to this as well, when you are a lawyer and the judge is asking questions about whether you can meet the

burden, and when the judge is saying well what happened to that impeachment machine that was supposed to be terrence bradley? he failed to impeach any of the other witnesses. i think you have a problem when you are the defense. all that being said, judge mcafee did indicate, chris, he was wondering, is an imperious of impropriety enough to be -- fani willis, in the state was clear. they said no, it's a conflict of interest in georgia. the evidence isn't there. the judge may not like what he has heard. he may recall his nose perhaps at the optic of it, but at the end of the day this is an evidentiary hearing and just like all of the cases that donald trump is facing, the evidence has to be there for the prosecution. and in this particular instance the evidence wasn't there for the defense. >> katie the thing i keep thinking about under georgia law it's not a conflict of interest for a husband wife to be on opposite sides of the same case. it can't be the appearance of impropriety, because of that legit, then you actually have to show something tangible.

it sounds like on a preponderance of evidence you don't think that's been met. but we'll see. neal, let me ask you about the hearing today in florida. i think this case has been, again, a few reasons why it has always felt like it will move slowly. two, really. one is that there's some real complexity and additional logistical burden around classified documents and how to deal with them in trial. and two, aileen cannon's first ruling, back when she appointed that special master, which seemed to show her to be so transparently in the bag for trump, that people suspect that she will slow walk it. do we get any clarity at all today out of the hearing? >> now. not much clarity. and chris, i agree with what you said to a point. look, i used to be a national security adviser of justice department, where i handle these kind of cases. and sure there's some complexities about classified information procedures act and the like. but nothing that should take this amount of time in this amount of delay. frankly this case should be on a pretty straightforward and

easy trajectory. unfortunately it's not. it's on a long and winding path. and judge cannon has given me no faith that it's going to move any more quickly than it has been. and it really should be because the american people deserve to know what donald trump did when he stole these documents, why he stole it, and the like. and you know, i think there's a reason why donald trump attacks every judge who sits on his cases, except one, aileen cannon. and it is because of the rulings she has made in this case, including two rulings last year they got slapped down by the court of appeals, a very conservative court of appeals. and i am concerned here because the trial schedule is the kind of thing that trial judges generally have discretion over. >> it's not the kind of thing you can run to the appeals court and criticize. and so far use that discretion in ways that are dragging this thing out and preventing it

from being tried. that's the common theme with the discussion you are having with katie about georgia. they have these arguments about the prosecutor being biased and this and that. it's all about justice being delayed. as we know justice delayed is justice denied. >> i want to ask you each the same question. i'll go to you katie and then i'll come back to you neal. i've been thinking about it all week with respect to all these cases, particularly the supreme court. there are some people who are arguing that people like me who feel that it is imperative, in a sort of small d democratic civic sense, not the law, but as the fabric of american democracy, we the people, we make decisions about our candidates, to have the trials happen before the elections so that we know. so that we can make an informed decision. a lot of people have said, katie, it is completely improper for that calculation to enter anyone's head. it felt wrong. and they shouldn't really worry

about that at all. i wonder what you think. >> i think that ignores reality, doesn't it? i mean, how are you supposed to make an informed decision as to the president of the united states if there is a concern that that person is feloniously conducting business. it goes beyond just the violation of -- a clause. it's the idea if you have someone who's not only comfortable committing crimes from the oval office but seems to have abs seeks to have immunity like their king of the united states are king of the world and they won't have any accountability. i think it's a fallacy, legal, politically and otherwise, to suggest that a voting populous should go and completely blindfolded as to the criminality of a candidate. we wouldn't want that for the dog catcher. we wouldn't want it for the oval office. i think it's important that we are having the gut check of realizing that we really have to address the fact that we haven't had someone like don

trump before. we talk about the adjective unprecedented. it has been abused, but we haven't had someone like donald trump. there's no harm no file in making sure that there's an educated decision in the voting place, in that sacred space, when it comes to something like the president of united states. >> the point about unprecedented, i saw someone wrote something defending the supreme court schedule and i said so far this is proceeding like a normal trial. i thought what are you talking about normal? first of, all normal criminal defendants don't get to claim presidential immunity, because it has only happened literally one time in american history. and number two, of course it's not normal. none of this is normal. there's no apples to apples comparison to make here. >> yeah, and i think that's exactly right. i think you and katie have hit the nail on the head. the one thing i would add, the essence of our constitution, what it's about, what we fought

the american revolution about, in the, and is about one big principle, which is that nobody is above the law, whether you are called king george the third or whether you are called donald trump. and the common theme across all these cases that you mentioned tonight, and indeed all of trump's behavior, both before he was president, during his presidency, and after, is he is above the dot the law. so you remember trump first said, when the mueller report came out, he said look i'm a sitting president, you can't under you can't indict me under my constitution. you have to wait till i leave office. then voters voted him out of office. he committed crimes to try to stay in office on january 6th. and he then says you can't prosecute me for those crimes because i'm still sitting president. so then we try and impeach him, which he says at that point you can do because you can't indict him you could only impeach a sitting president. so we do that, and he says, incenses lawyers to say oh no you can't impeach a president at the end of his term.

you've got to indict him after he leaves office. so then we do exactly that. jack smith does that. he invites him after he leaves office. and then he says oh no, you can't indict me. you have to have impeached the first. none of this adds up in any sense to anything that is anything but soviet. and it's certainly not the american constitution. and so that's the stakes. do the american public really want, i mean forget about whether he did it or not, just these claims he is making i think are making him constitutionally in asian ineligible to be president. he spitting on our sacred document. >> neal katya, katie phang thank you. we appreciate it. >> coming up, as donald trump floats what is a nationwide essentially a abortion ban. he's gonna do a nationwide abortion ban. republican party continues its unpopular assault on women's

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>> so we have been covering the gap between the kind of mealymouthed platitudes of politicians who recognize their actual views on reproductive rights are totally unpopular and to basically want to trick people on the gabba tween what they say what they do. the speaker of the house, mike johnson, said just yesterday he supports ivf. >> look, i believe in the

saying to tv of every human life. i always have. and because of that i support ivf and its availability. it is to be readily available. it needs to be something every american supports. it needs to be handled in unethical manner. so we'll continue to support that. >> okay, it needs to be handled in an ethical manner. that's the key part. ivf needs to be available, but what does he mean by the ethical manner? that's what he stood at the podium and said. while crucially if you want to know what that ethical matter he is referring to is, he remains a co-sponsor of the life at conception bill, which would codify personhood at the moment of fertilization and full 14th amendment due process rights for frozen embryos with absolutely no carve out for ivf. a reminder to watch what they do and not what they say. today that we have more evidence. republican congresswoman nancy mace of carolina introduced a nonbinding resolution that does

nothing but some expressed source for fertility care like ivf and evenness toothless resolution gets only six republican cosponsors. [laughter] but get this. yesterday 145 republicans in congress file an amicus brief asking the supreme court to restrict access to the abortion drug mifepristone and asking the court to ban the mailing of abortion pills anywhere in the u.s.. they say the comstock act, basically added law from the 18 70s, named after an infamous massage in historic anti vice crusader that band of the mailing obscene materials or anything, quote, intended for the prevention of contraception or procuring of abortion. mind you more than half of all abortions in the u.s. were medication abortions of 2020. mifepristone is the drug commonly used in that procedure. a right-wing antiabortion district judge in texas already

tried to ban mifepristone nationwide. and just a few weeks the supreme court will hear that case that started with him. and so those hundred and 45 republicans in congress are affirmatively choosing to sign an amicus brief. they don't have to. they are just announcing to you they are real intentions. congresswoman katie porter democratic of california. she's a member of pro-choice caucus. she's a candidate for senate in 2024. she joins me now. i'm curious. i was cracking up at the nancy mace thing. here is why i was cracking up. it does seem like an easy slam dunk. they know they have a problem. this wild alabama state supreme court decision which imperiled ivf in that state, the co- sponsorship of the life that conception act. why wouldn't they rushed to do that? >> look, this entire saying is about nancy mace being performative about the republican party trying to

convince people and lull them into thinking that they will not come for every last bit of women's freedom to make their own decisions about their health and about when and if to start a family. look, people said roe would never fall. it fell. now they're saying well, they never attack. things like ivf. they never attack birth control. wake up, america. everyone who is a woman or knows and loves a woman and beliefs and freedom of to be up in arms about this. and the only solution here is vote them out. >> do you think, if the results of the 2024 election, where the republicans took majorities in both houses of congress and i like to donald trump to be president, is there any doubt in your mind that they would sign a national abortion ban. >> now. you know why? because they said they will do exactly that. as you point out, they are relying, the republicans, 145

of them, 90% of whom are man, who signed that amicus brief, are relying on the comstock act. what does that apply to? it provides, it applies to the prevention of contraception. the prevention of pregnancy. the prevention of conception. that means it applies to birth control to contraception. this is the beginning. and if we don't act, it will be the end. so i think we have to quit mincing words and quit trying to reassure americans. our rights are under attack and we need to fight like hell. >> i wonder how you think the people here that in the state of california. one of the things that has happened post-dobbs is that the bifurcation of the states. it was quote unquote were turned to the states. and that means some states have outlawed abortions. some states have secured abortion rights, every affirmed them, actually put them in statutory protections, but for people in a state like

california, do you think voters are aware that those state protections are going to be superseded by natural legislation if these people who want to ban abortion manage to win power? >> californians definitely feel safe. they feel like they can make their own choices here. and we have leadership in our state that has reassured them of that. but the reality is, this is just simple fifth grade civics class. the federal government has the ability to make laws that are supreme to state law. so what trump says there's there will be a nationwide abortion ban. there won't be a single lawmaker in california can do about it. >> do you think this issue, in your conversation, both in your campaigning in california, for the soon to be open senate seat and also in the context of traveling the state and thinking about this 2024

election. i think some people missed some pre-hand how salient the issue is. my sense is that it's every bit as salient as the day dobbs came out and even more so. do you get that sense from the voters who talk to? or do you think people have been lulled in this false sense of security in the state like california? >> it's very important people to have the freedom to make this decision for themselves. that i think is as strong and as urgent and people feel really strongly about it. each time we have seen this issue, put cleanly on the ballot front up down vote, americans across the country have said they want their own rights to make their own decisions. the problem has been that we are not making it clear to voters that this is on the ballot in every single federal election in every pocket of this country. it is on the ballot in california. in the senate race, we have had colleagues, i have and democratic colleagues say things like, the decision to

reverse roe is a sign of things to come. it's not a sign of anything. it is actually resulting in women and girls dying right now. and so i think that reflects the lack of urgency, that kind of language. this is a harbinger of what is to come. this is part of the gradual erosion of our democracy. it is about people not having freedom today. it is about our daughters having less freedom than we had. and so i think there needs to be more urgency on this from elected leaders across the country, including here in california. >> congresswoman katie porter, thank you very much. >> thank you. >> still ahead, as the country reacts to the supreme court delaying don trump's trial, the court is considering another case that is almost too insane to be believed. i will tell you that story, next. story, next.

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"known for her grilling of corporate executives." with "deep policy knowledge." katie porter's housing plan has "bipartisan-friendly ideas to bring homebuilding costs down." and the chronicle praises "her ideas to end soft corruption in politics." let's shake up the senate. with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. >> between mitch mcconnell's announcement of his retirement as senate minority leader to slow things down to benefit donald trump, we've gotten a window this week into the machinery of modern conservatism. but another case before the high court maybe an even more revealing example of just how far-right our system has been taken in recent years, all out of proportion to public opinion. it goes back to the deadliest mass shooting in u.s. history at the las vegas music festival in 2017. just a horrific scene. i was there in the aftermath of

her a week. and that shooting the gunman fired hundreds of shots into the crowd using what are called bump stocks on his rifle, which allow a semiautomatic ar-15 to simulate a machine gun. [sound of gunfire] [laughter] >> that was faster than i expected. >> following that horrific shooting using that tool, shooting the left six de dead and more than 400 injured. he was camped out in the window just shooting down on people for a very long time. multiple polls showed that more than, wait for it, 80% of americans wanted bump stocks banned. numbers so overwhelming that donald trump took action. donald trump directing the atf to classify them as machine guns. imagine a shooting device so horrifying the trump administration wanted it banned. you know who doesn't?

the progun right, which saw the atf over its trump era ruling, with legal aid from a group of course bankrolled in part by one of the cohn brothers. it made its way to the supreme court, suggested most of the conservatives are ready to overturn the ban. again, the band that 80% of americans and donald trump wanted in the aftermath of a truly horrific shooting. why? because, as slates mark joseph stern writes, this particular band sits in the middle of two obsessions, demolishing gun safety legislation, and the dismantling the administrative state. here's the supreme court considering a wildly unpopular action. because it furthers far-right sayings. they don't have to worry. they are there for decades. wielding minority power as the sole vision of modern conservatism. kate coffins is a staffer at the atlantic and the author of romney, a reckoning, and also our new msnbc political

contributor. he joins me. now great to have you. >> thanks for having me, chris. >> so i think this bump stock thing is so, it's so perfect because i think it shows why mitch mcconnell went to the lengths she went to to keep that seat open when scalia died and two rush ian amy colbert at. why donald trump won in 2016, why he has delivered for conservatism in a way that no other president has, and why fundamentally the court is truly the corner store of what modern conservative-ism is. as someone who has been covering conservatism for over a decade, what do you think? >> republicans made a calculation a number of years ago that the way that they could wield power most effectively and government was through the judiciary. i think they understood this before a lot of people on the left dead and they have been laying the groundwork for this

for decades. what this case is about that we are talking about here is that it's really not about the second amendment or gun rights. it's one about the longest running and most far reaching goals of the conservative legal project, which is to dismantle the administration. two week in the federal government. and i think this is one case of many where you see conservatives able to achieve their ideological aims regardless of popularity or pressure from the electorate. this is why, like you said, the conservative supreme court is so valuable to them and why basically the machinery of republican power over the last decade plus has been oriented around capturing the judiciary. >> this administrative state and wanting to gut it, which is another case before the court this term, possibly overturning decades of law about basically what the federal bureaucracy

can do, basically saying stripping it of its power. this is also key to the governing vision of a second trump term. if you read the project 2025, you listen to stephen miller and steve bannon, and even donald trump, the idea is there all these federal bureaucrats were going to, we're going to get rid of them are higher people that, the corrupt urban machine. like the daily machine. >> right. >> and everybody just does what we tell them to do. and that's how we're going to deport eight to 10 million people. >> that's right. i have been writing about this for the past several months because i do think it's important for people to understand that this isn't like speculation. it's not a secret. the trump administration, the future trump administration, don trump and his allies, have made very clear what they want to do when they take power back. and that is to effectively replace civil servants with

political loyalists. you said it's like a corrupt party machine. i don't even think they would dispute that. they might quibble with the word corrupt, but they literally want to, i talk to paul -- who runs this project 2025 and he literally said this is a top to bottom renovation of the federal government that we want to undertake. and i think you are right, that this is all of a peace with the same goal, which is to make it so that the federal government doesn't have any power to interpret and enforce law based on expertise or objective analysis of what needs to be done but rather based on what they are party boss, their party leader wants. >> and when you come back around to what the checks are on that, you end up back at the court. i've been thinking about this a lot. >> when you compare the first term to the second term, the federal courts did some restraining of trump in that

first term. but it wasn't the 63 court. it wasn't the dobbs court. it wasn't this court. and you've got to a mansion, and i wonder if you think the same, that there would be a lot more leeway for a second trump term on that score than there was in the first. >> this is something i have been wondering about a lot, frankly. because i think that we have gotten used to the idea that the judiciary will save us. we still have the courts. and what i would say is that i have done some reporting on the inner workings, the internal politics of the supreme court. what i found is that these justices, for the most part, at least several of the conservative justices, they are not loyal to trump. they're not in thrall to donald trump as a personality. in fact several of them don't like him. but what they are committed to is this broader ideological project. and to the extent of the trump administration is doing things that are outside of precedent to advance that project, i don't see any reason to believe that the courts will put a

check on that. >> i think that's correct and astute. mckay coppins, thank so much. great to have you on board. >> thank you. >> still to come, as republicans return to played out tropes about the dangers of american cities, the roots behind these attacks, and the truth of where violent crime is happening and in america, ahead. and in america, ahead. to plan around. thanks! i mean, i can see you right now if that's...convenient. visionworks. see the difference. ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain.

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>> we have not, for 40 years, we decided to take all of our biggest hardest things and say why not make it in china in europe and imported back. but it's not that the united states doesn't know how to do this. the muscles have atrophied a little bit. we need to build them back up. but we put a man on the moon. we figured out how to do all of these big things, skyscrapers, all nine years. it's not that we can to do it. but you're right. for some reason we started betting against ourselves and saying oh, this thing that happened with the big dig, or this thing went over budget, or the second avenue subway, or whatever it is. we just can't do big complicated things in this country. and i would suggest to you that there is a formula for how to do big megaprojects. >> tell me about how you feel generally about the trajectory where on. >> when you think about the fact that countries are now competing to see how green they can be because they believe that this is the future of

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"overflowing with ideas and energy." that's the san francisco chronicle endorsing democrat katie porter for senate over all other options. porter is "easily the most impressive candidate." "known for her grilling of corporate executives." with "deep policy knowledge." katie porter's housing plan has "bipartisan-friendly ideas to bring homebuilding costs down." and the chronicle praises "her ideas to end soft corruption in politics." let's shake up the senate. with democrat katie porter. i'm katie porter and i approve this message. >> there are plenty of earnest, well informed critics of president joe biden out there, if you look. and then there's tommy tuberville. on tuesday the football coach turned republican alabama senator doug out an old favorite from the republican playbook to attack the presidents trip to manhattan on social media.

quote, hope joe biden enjoyed going after ice cream in new york city while the rest of the city is afraid of crime and migrants. tuberville was dialing up a time-honored conservative trope. before he could spike the football, readers added a note to his post, using the most recent stats in the cdc, quote, new york's homicide rate is 4.8 per hundred thousand residents. alabama, the state tuberville represents has, a homicide rate of 15.9, three times as high, the third highest in the nation. tuberville's own state, alabama, is the third deadliest state in the union for homicides. it has a murder rate three times as high as new york city. it's funny how there's no shortage of republican politicians and pundits blasting democratic cities constantly all day as hell escapes of violence and poverty. you do not hear similar criticisms, certainly from democratic politicians of rural america, where those problems in many cases are demonstrably worse. that disconnect our right-wing minority can have control over

our politics and the rational to reject democracy. according to political scientist, in the book white range, this minority rules a consequence of disproportionate power wielded by rural whites, power often justified on the right by insistence that these are the worth east americans, the ones most possessed of virtue and values, and therefore it is only proper that they're voids count for more. tom shuler is a professor of political science at the university of maryland, baltimore county, coauthor of white rural rage, along with other books, there is out this week. tom, can we start on that title? i was at the break talking about producer and we're talking, about what do you think, do the publishers like that idea for the title? i mean it is a very provocative title. why did you go with that? >> because the short titles. they work. malcolm gladwell's bling. you try to have a one word or two word title, as you see the syllables as possible. we're talking about the well-

defined and documented in empirically measured term called rural resentment. but white rural resentment doesn't fit well on the cover so we use range. it's a social eligible concept of people are kathryn caper creamer of politics and resentment about rural white wisconsin's have all talked about this concept. is it a little bit inflammatory? and are we trying to sell some books? we plead guilty. >> [laughter] let's talk about this concept of resentment. first, let's just talk about the trajectory, would you guys talk about in the book. people know it at some level but it's underappreciated just how dramatic the move of rural america has been, the mood over the last two years. counties that used to be 60 40 counties or 50 5:45 counties are now just reliably 80 20 republican. so places that were already conservative moving just wildly. and it still shows signs of going. what explains that trend? >> as you point out, between

2012 and 2016 i think there were 206 obama trump counties. there were 18 and at least -- the largest district to new york state. a lot of it is driven by cultural politics, i think. paul and i are basically arguing that rural americans, with guys, have concluded that neither party can solve their material and economic benefits. congress can't pass a law saying all you foreign countries can't manufacture things and higher child labor and have an environmental laws to undergird hours. you can't legislate the reversal of mountaintop mountains, which pulls the tops off of coal mines you can take a giant shovel and will no longer have to be goal and send minors with their lunches like -- in the documentary by john sales, you have a lunch box between their legs with a pick and shovel. you can't just vote those jobs back. what is happening is, once you make that decision, once you

say they are talking a good game and whatever, we can't -- you might as well vote on god and religion, like barack obama said. and this irrationality to that. the republican party will take away reproductive -- they will push back against trans rights and so forth. there is a certain logic to rural white voters voting the way they do. i think some of it is driven by exasperations economically as they look around and see hospitals closing, pharmacies closing, mom and pop shops replaced by dollars to stores and family dollar, which, is by the way, late stage capitalism, not socialism, not socialism, is destroying rural communities. even though they're complaining about in big cities. i think the desperation is real. >> i counter that point in the book and it's stuck with me because it shows the lack of a program problematic agenda of the republican party when they have power. the conclusion that there is nothing government can do, which i don't think is correct, with the conclusion that is not a thing that can be done about

the trajectory of these places that we live in that we love that are on essentially a kind of downward trajectory in terms of the prospects. and if there is nothing to do, then yeah, i'm gonna vote for this other stuff. i guess the question is, there's this theory of progressives that there are things to be done. and if you can target investment, if you can target government policy for those areas. much of it has been targeted especially by the biden administration in these laws and when they say you can make things better that you can reverse that. what do you think of that? >> i've been talking about rural activists this week, like matt, he'll executive director of role organizing, in these people are doing the most cisa foresee and work to get people mole belies, registered, and voting, not the right way persuade per se but voting on the right things. and you're right. democrats are actually delivering a lot more. when obama came into office in 2009, the rural uninsured rate was 44% for adults, which is measured as over 18 under 65

cars you have medicare above and a minor independent. the 24% uninsured rate, within nine years of passing obamacare, which passed in 2010, so we're talking in those nine years is lower from 24% to 16%. that's 18% of that. that's what out of 12 rural americans moved from uninsured to insured, and because it's eight against 44%, that's a one third reduction, and of every 300 uninsured white rural americans, one was moved to insurance. that's a massive public policy success. in some rural voters rushed out to vote for hillary clinton? right? wrong. you want me to talk about how biden is a brutal people from covid deaths? i can do that one to, if you want to hear. >> well, i would like to, although we are out of time, but i would suggest that people check out the book, white rural rage, a threat to american democracy by tom schaller and tom waldman. thank you very. much that is all in for the week. alex starts right. now good