inning. when they overturned roe, i secured abortion rights in our state constitution. when trump attacked our lgbtq and asian neighbors, i strengthened our hate crime laws. i fought for all of us struggling to keep up with the rising cost of living. i'm evan low, and i approve this message for all of our shared values. what do i see in peter dixon? i see my husband... the father of our girls. i see a public servant. a man who served under secretary clinton in the state department... where he took on the epidemic of violence against women in the congo. i see a fighter, a tenacious problem-solver... who will go to congress and protect abortion rights and our democracy. because he sees a better future for all of us. i'm peter dixon and i

thanks you for joining us this hour. -- there's a lot going on. fiona hill is going to be joining us live tonight. fiona hill, of course, with senior director for russia and europe at the national security council during the trump presidency, which means she had a somewhat terrifying front row seat to some of the weirdest things and the u.s. president has ever tried to get away with. fiona hill is here tonight, as there have been dramatic developments today about the informant who provided the central allegations at the heart of congressional republicans efforts to impeach president biden this year. this informant today was sent to jail indefinitely by a federal judge in california. he is in jail awaiting trial. prosecutors arrested and indicted him a week and a half ago, alleging that his statements to law enforcement about president biden and his family not only were lies, but this man had been fed lies and disinformation about president biden by russian intelligence.

despite those ties to russian intelligence, a magistrate last week, somewhat inexplicably, allow the man to be released awaiting trial, with an ankle monitor. but this federal judge in california reversed that decision today -- after prosecutors said they found, among other things, nine guns in his apartment, and the judge said that he believed the man was trying to absconds from the united states. he will not be absconding from anywhere. he is in jail awaiting trial. and this remarkable turn in that story. fiona hil is here to talk about that tonight about what is, apparently now, the third straight election in which russian intelligence appears to be engaged in efforts to help donald trump and republicans, and to hurt the democratic candidate who is running against trump. only this time of course, there is a big new assist from one american citizen who now runs twitter, where he has ordered a stop to any efforts to even try

to block russian disinformation operations targeting the u.s. public, and specifically promoting a new u.s. civil war, which seems like the thing they are most on to win this election cycle. his platform is hosting, and he personally is promoting, not only fawning, long online interviews of vladimir putin, but also outright propaganda praising life in russia, waxing poetic about how much better rushes than the united states. he personally -- mr. musk -- has been lobbying that the united states should stop supporting ukraine in its war against russia, telling people to lobby their u.s. senators to not give ukraine anymore support, to effectively just that russia win. all the while, he has admitted, personally intervening in the operation of his starlink satellites just him to stop ukraine from being able to target to the russian navy. so, russia is doing what it is going to do, right? three elections in a row where

russian intelligence is trying to help trump and republicans against the democrats. but it is happening now in the context of this war. and it is happening now in the context of this one particular american trying to play a very different role than what the u.s. is doing as its foreign policy. right? the united states is supposed to have one foreign policy. individual americans are not allowed to have their own foreign policy in contradiction to the united states foreign policy. but you could have your own opinions. but you are not supposed to be directing what the u.s. government does. the united states is also supposed to have robust means to make sure we protect ourselves in terms of our national defense. the reality this year, in 2024, is that the u.s. is being targeted in the third straight election by russian intelligence, trying to mess with our politics and install their preferred candidates in power here. and while we are trying to defend ourselves from, that we are also trying to help one of our allies fight off the russian military in the largest european land war since world

war ii. so, that is the stance of the united states. defend ourselves against russian interference in our election again, and help our ally defend itself against the russian military. that is our stance as a country. the stance of two of our eccentric, erratic, increasingly extremist american billionaires is apparently the opposite stance. and the stance that the republican party as a whole on that score is still, maybe, up for grabs. so, i will speak with fiona hil, about that tonight. we will also speak with her about the startling reports that, when russian opposition leader alexei navalny was killed earlier this month, he was reportedly about to be part of a prisoner swap where he would have been released to the united states. so, like i said, there is lots to get to tonight. get to toni. but we are going to start tonight with a name that long time "the rachel maddow show" viewers might remember. his name is george recur

george rekers -- in the part of anti-gay politics that says that people can be cured of the gay, that it can be reversed with just the right therapy. by 2010, there was george rekers being photographed at the airport in miami, in the company of a handsome young man named lucian who mr. george rekers had apparently met on rent boy.com. and mr. george rekers had tried to explain that he had taken this -- the young man himself seen here, not helping with the

luggage, eventually explained exactly what he was paid for on that european trip. for on that european trip. and george rekers ultimately resigned from his job at the anti-gay organization. in 2004, when republican president george w. bush was up for reelection, the republican party and the bush campaign enthusiastically promoted bans on same sex marriage in multiple states. they expected that anti-gay campaigning in as many states as possible would goose republican turnout and goose boost bush's chances. -- and vote republican while they are there. bush was reelected in 2004. those anti-gay states ballot initiatives very well may have helped with that. but then, two years after bush left the white house, the man who had been chairman of the bush campaign at that time came out himself as gay. one out himself as gay. on he then said about trying to write the wrong he had been part of, by persuading leading

republicans to change their mind on marriage equality, and to persuade the supreme court to support marriage equality, which they have done at least for a while. but honestly, it's like you can't swing a cat without hitting one of these guys. those anti-gay valleton issued if that were supposed to help george w. bush get reelected in 2004, they got a big boost in 2004 when a group called the national association of evangelicals, huge, influential religious group, decided in 2004 that they would emphatically restate their opposition to homosexuality in all its forms, which effectively endorsed all the anti-gay measures that the republicans were promoting all over the country, in advance of the election that year. the national association of evangelicals, at that time, was led by this man. ted haggart, who soon treated the country to not at all uncomfortable headlines like this one. quote, evangelist. i bought meth from gay escort.

again, i mean, follow the bouncing ball. he found himself a very handsome man. and it was never totally clear if he paid the handsome man for sex using the drugs as the method of payment, or maybe if he paid the man for the sex and the drugs together, kind of like a kneel deal or something. but yeah, president of the national association of evangelicals. i've got 1 million of. these guys. trump's oklahoma campaign chairman from 2016 was a republican state senator who voted, as an oklahoma state senator, that businesses should be able to put up signs that we do not serve gays here. trump's campaign chairman in oklahoma in 2016, busted in 2017 for soliciting sex from exactly who you think he would be doing that from. the republican mayor of spokane, washington, supported banning gay people from working

in schools, later revealed to be meeting new friends, new, new friends all the time at gay.com. he's handle was there cobra82. because of course it, was cobra82. -- i've got 1 million of them. how much time do you have? this weekend was the conservative political action conference. it is an annual right-wing conference thing. among the things you can reliably get at cpac every year's anti-trans rhetoric by the dump full, and anti-gay sermonizing as well. this year was no exception and it's like that every year. cpac is run by a man named matt schlapp, it has been four years. and in 2022, ahead of the congressional midterms, mr. matt schlapp was in georgia, campaigning for the herschel walker senate campaign.

a male staffer to drive matt schlapp around. and while in the car that schlapp allegedly put his hand on the young man's leg, and then, quote, began aggressively fondling the staffers genital area in a sustained fashion without the staffers consent. the staffer claims that mr. schalpp then invited the -- to his hotel room. he declined. early this, year the man sued schalpp for sexual battery, and as that lawsuit has dragged on, more allegations of sexual misconduct against match lap have come to light, as part of discovering that sexual battery lawsuit, lawyers for the republican campaign staffer discovered in 2017 at a cpac party, schalpp allegedly attempted to kiss a male employee against his wishes, and also -- fundraising event in 2022, that schlapp was accused of stripping down to his underwear and, forgive me,

rubbing against another person without his consent. now, mr. schalpp, for his part, has denied all allegations of wrongdoing. the lawsuit says that the american conservative union, the parent company to cpac, which employs match lap, knew about two of the allegations are benched gets schalpp before they became public, but the lawsuit claims that the american conservative union has not only failed to remove mr. schalpp from his leadership position, they also failed to pursue any kind of investigation into the claims of sexual misconduct. and so given that failure to do anything about the allegations, the american conservative union has now been added as a defendant in the matt schlapp sexual battery lawsuit. the organization has thus far spent upwards of 1 million dollars matt schlapp on's legal fees to defend himself in the sexual battery case. but they have, meanwhile, kept him in place to run the big annual anti-gay conference.

because, sure, that is fine. who will notice? here was the same matt schlapp, the head of cpac, speaking this weekend about how conservatives, in his mind, need to approach the election this year. >> -- year, at cpac, we have different groups that have signed up to do different things. and michael to the activist's, get in those rooms. things have gotten so crooked. you have got to be in the room when they are doing the count. most of these elections are being determined by temps in our largest city. so, why don't we get those jobs? and what do we have to do, we have to intimidate, in the nicest of ways, all these officials that continue to flout the law. i don't care what jurisdiction you are in. go to the meetings. make appointments. make it very clear, become conversant with the law. if the citizens don't stand up, nobody in a white building in washington d.c. is going to make any changes. >> we have to intimidate all

these elected officials. i don't care what jurisdiction you are in. go to the meeting. make it very clear. to make appointments. we have to intimidate these elected officials, says the head of cpac. the big not at all hypocritical anti-gay right-wing confab that just happened under his leadership this weekend. that was clipped by the group media matters. here is the same man, here is matt schlapp, with trump advisor steve bannon talking about what he thinks the sort of takeaway message from cpac's. >> everyone says, oh, this is the most important election of our lifetime. i don't even know if you call this an election. this is like the two point oh of the american revolution. we are going to have own new heroes coming in. we are going to remember their names forever. but stop talking, and start doing. that was the theme coming out of this conference. no more complaining. no more talking. >> it's not an election this year, it is a revolution. it is the second american revolution. so, no more talking.

for his part, he was steve bannon, he's big charm offensive at cpac this weekend, trying to persuade his fellow americans to win people over to his way of thinking. >> they stole the 2020 election. media, i want you to suck on this! i want the white house to suck on this. you lost in 2020! donald trump is a legitimate president of the united states! >> [applause] >> trump one won, trump won, trump won, trump won! >> [crowd chanting] >> his fate and political destiny is the head of the greatest political comeback in political history, to drive the vermont out of 1600 pennsylvania avenue. biden, you and your crime

family are nothing but trash. okay? and on the 20th of january of 2025, we are going to take out the trash. >> the hold, democracy. in the greatest nation on earth. i don't know how the election is going to go this year. that is what one side is offering. and maybe that is what the good and great people of the united states of america truly want. t but it is not just cpac, and their illustrious leadership. that is kind of just the tenor of what is on offer here. i mean, even in print. these were adjacent headlines in the washington post last week. biden administration cancels one point -- million dollars in student loans with new repayment plan. right next to, trump and allies planning militarized mass deportations, khama detention camps. that is the choice, right? relief from high student loans, or using the military to lock

up millions of people in huge new camps. adjacent headlines in the washington post on the same day. both parties at the same point in general election campaigning, thinking about what they want to be doing to present to the american people about what their idea is of governing. and i don't know which of the two sides the american people is more in the mood for. but it seems pretty clear, to me, at least, that the best contrast for the democrats to draw for voters this year is maybe just the simplest one. right? normal, popular, practical accomplishments from president biden and the democrats, versus burn it all down radicalism being screamed at the top of their lungs by republicans under donald trump. you can't even understand what they are talking about half the time, because they speak in their own code. barbara mcquade, who you know and love from her time here is a legal analyst and explainer on msnbc, she has a new book that comes out tomorrow and it

is called attack from within, how disinformation is sabotaging america. and in her new book, among other things, barbara quayle barbara mcquade barbara mcquad explains -- and authoritarianism, why you need to disconnect people from facts about the world, from the noble truth and complexity in order to get people to endorse extremism, to endorse extreme new radical changes, to reimagine their lives, and to reimagine their country, the way they have never thought of it before. barbara mcquade, in her new book, talks about the need to hit people emotionally rather than logically. she talks about sort of the utility of the would-be authoritarian leader, authoritarian movement, focusing rhetorical on decline- ism. convincing people the country is no longer great. it's falling apart, it's a disaster. if you can think convince

people of that, they will have an emotional reaction about being afraid at the state of the country now. they will have an emotional reaction about wanting to rescue the country if they can be convinced that things are so far gone that they will then feel the need for extreme measures, for strongman to come in and -- maybe have got to wreck the place. maybe you've got to wreck the rules but it's a rescue mission for a country that is otherwise lost. and what that means in practical terms, in terms of actually running a political campaign that it a matter of months will supposedly pick a new president, what that means is every day, making sure that your message undermines the idea of democracy and the idea of the rule of law. so, this is not theory. this is not academic. this is our lives now. trump advisor steve bannon, we just saw there yelling about vermin and trash at cpac, he spent last week telling his podcast listeners that the tom suozzi election in long island

was stolen. what? yes. in steve bannon world, this was the story of last week. this is the special election to replace george santos. there is no suggestion there was anything wrong with the count, or anything wrong with the conduct of that election at all. but it does not matter. a democrat one. and therefore, steve bannon tells his acolyte and his followers, that that election west have been, stolen and they should not respect the results of it. even when it does not matter, when it's one special election for one congressional seat, and there's no controversy about, it still, you have to say elections don't count, elections aren't real. now, on top of that, we have got the republican national committee losing its chair, ronna romney mcdaniel. she's being replaced summarily by a north carolina republican who is reportedly considered by trump to be more solid, specifically on the issue of throwing out election results. and ms. mcdaniel was no slouch on this issue herself, but apparently trump wants someone

even stronger specifically on that point. he's a stop the steal guy. and so he will now be running the rnc if trump gets his way. . and the politics of running against democracy, the politics of getting americans to distrust elections and ultimately not want them anymore. that was inextricably inextricably tied with getting americans to distress the legal system. do not trust the courts and not trust the justice system anymore, to not take it seriously, to not obey its dictates, to not respect any of its rules. and barbara mcquade's book more than anything helped me see the connection of, it the connection between those two points, between getting rid of elections and getting rid of the rule of law. you have to get rid of the rule of law, you have to undermine undermine and problematizing, get away with what you are trying to do with elections. this is all over the news right. not just on friday with conson ethics commission refer to trump pack and multiple officials for felony prosecution for their role in a

wisconsin scheme to punish a republican leader in the wisconsin state legislature who trump thought did not fight hard enough to throughout the election results in that state. we want you to throw those election results and you don't do a good enough job we. are now going to, allegedly, commit crimes in order to turf you out of your position. recommended for prosecution as of friday. last, week the u.s. supreme court refused to throw out the sanctions the, professional sanctions against trump lawyer sydney powell and lin wood, for their efforts to overthrow the election would. mike lindell, mike pillow, last week was ordered by a judge to pay up in a contest he held, we promised $5 million cash to anybody who could disprove his claims that a foreign government helped steal the election from biden. somebody did disprove those claims. and now a core says mr. pillow has to play pay. he does not want to pay. but of course as he must. and georgia, the right-wing

group true the vote, that apparently ginned up claims about supposed problems in the georgia election in 2020, they made hay with those claims with not just weeks around the election, but months, and ultimately years. but when it got pushed through the legal system, that had to admit to a judge, that no, they don't actually have any evidence to back up there -- that there was fraud in georgia. trump had multiple georgia codefendants are now going to go on trial for trying to overthrow the election result in georgia, which they did by citing this fake evidence from this group, true the vote. what will happen? in that case? will that case come to trial? trump and his codefendants best hope is not their defense, but they're unrelated personal counteroffensive to try to describe it and it is disqualify the prosecutor to get her thrown off the case. the rule of law is protecting democracy. we have got to get rid of the rule of law.

as barb, says in her new, book "attack from in within", even as authoritarians claim the mantle of law and order, they work to ensure it never applies to them. politicians who, when targeted, are deceptive about the motives of investigators and prosecutors. they undermine public confidence in law enforcement officers. in recent years, trump and his loyalists have used this information to attack agencies charged with enforcing the law, like the department of justice and the irs, in addition to prosecutors like the manhattan district attorney's office. when trump was under investigation for links between russia and his 2016 presidential campaign, he repeatedly called the probe a hoax and a witch hunt. he tied the agencies conducting the investigation as a disgrace. when an fbi agent knocks on the door to seek information about crimes, witnesses are less likely to cooperate with officers they believe are a disgrace. jurors may not believe agents who testify in court after the president has accused their agency of planting evidence. as a result, our ability to

enforce the rule of law erodes. attacks on the fairness and independents have the judiciary undermine the credibility of the courts and judges in the eyes of the, public leading to erosion of respect for the rule of law. they also create a danger that someone will turn criticism into action, and physically attack judges or even jurors, a very real threat. rors, a very real threat. hypocrisy is like a cold, windy day in the winter. you don't love it. but it's not like you don't expect it. but what barbara mcquade is writing about in her new book, and what we are seeing from the campaign this year, something that is not inevitable. but something planned, something systematic, and something very, very, very radical. democrats are campaigning against it by saying, we are doing normal politics, delivering normal, practical results for real world problems. the republicans are promising to burn it all down. they have to undermine the idea

of democracy and the rule of law in order to get to their endgame. the question, including the question for barb, is whether studying it and naming it and studying how it works helps us fight. it join us now is barbara mcquade, former u.s. attorney in michigan, stalwart and list of all things legal here on msnbc, and now author of the new book "attack from within" how disinformation is sabotaging america. barb, congratulations on this book. thank you for writing it, thank you for being here to talk with me about it as it's coming out. i'm really grateful. >> thank you. honored to be with you tonight. >> let me ask the big picture here first. i think the meta project in your book is explain how disinformation works, why people use it, what it looks like when they do use it, how to recognize it in the wild. do you have faith that us learning this stuff, studying it, being able to recognize it, knowing how it works, is the first step to us no longer

being so susceptible to it? >> so, that is the goal, rachel maddow rachel maddow. i really want to have a national conversation about truth and the commitment to. in my book is very patriotic and appealing to people in our commitment to truth because i think we have seen so much in recent years not only con, where people are falling for disinformation, but i think we are also seeing people willingly go along along with the colin. they are choosing tribe over truth and they care more about the end justifying the means. and so my hope, that by dissecting it, explaining it, and educating the public, i think we can see the -- for what it is so that we can push back against. it >> barb, you're right about the united states extensively and with a lot of detail. but you also draw in some comparisons from a lot of. countries you talk about other strongman leaders, other countries that are transition from a mostly democratic form of government to a less democratic form. do you believe the u.s. is

particularly vulnerable to disinformation, or do you believe that we are kind of an exceptional and it is the same? we are as susceptible to it as any other country? >> actually, rachel i, believe we are more susceptible to it than other countries. and that is because some of our greatest strengths can also be our achilles heel. so, for example, our deep commitment to free speech in our first amendment. it is a cherished right. it is an important right, and democracy. and nobody wants to get rid of it. but it makes us vulnerable to claims that anything we try to do to regulate speeches censorship. of course, the supreme court has held that all fundamental rights, even the right of free speech, can be-limited as long as there is a compelling governmental interest, and the restriction is narrowly tailored to achieve that interest. but i think any time someone tries to do anything that might limit free speech, people claim censorship. just look at the case the supreme court heard today about efforts by the states of florida and texas to prevent

social media companies from moderating content online. and they call it censorship that they are trying to silence conservative voices. of course, social media companies are private actors who are not bound by the first amendment. and so, we need to have a conversation and common sense solutions to these things. instead, we throughout terms like censorship. we call each other names. we use labels. and we all retreat to our opposite sides. we need to be pragmatic and come up with real solutions. but it is, i think, one of the things that makes america particularly vulnerable to disinformation. >> the book ends with a fulsome detailed and well argued set of concrete recommendations for what we can do as citizens and the kinds of reforms in our government, in our democracy that might make a difference. and as such as it is a real public service, and a pleasure. the book is called "attack from within: how disinformation is sabotaging america", it is

brand new and just that right now, from barbara mcquade, our dear friend at msnbc, our dear congratulations, and thank. you much more here to come. th you much more here to come. ♪ i'll be there... ♪ ♪ you don't... ♪ ♪ you don't have to worry... ♪ ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. brett: once we got the first initial hit, it was just straight tears, sickness in your stomach, just don't want to get up out of bed. joe: there's always that saying, well, you've got to look on the bright side of things. tell me what the bright side of childhood cancer is. lakesha: it's a long road. it's hard. but saint jude has gotten us through it.

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so he was arrested, and then released, and then re-arrested, in the space of a few days. the informant who provided the central allegations behind congressional republicans efforts to impeach president biden, appeared in federal

court today, to face charges that he made it all up. but the stories he told the fbi, about the supposed corruption of president biden and his family, those stories were lies, lies fed to him by his own admission, by russian intelligence. his name is alexander smirnoff, he pleaded not guilty today. but the judge hearing his case ordered him to remain in jail, indefinitely, awaiting trial. apparently convinced by prosecutors arguments that mr. smirnoff might flee the country, before his trial. it's really impossible to overstate the degree to which this gentleman has been the centerpiece of the republicans impeachment push against president biden. for months and months, republican lawmakers and conservative media have been trumpeting these bribery allegations made by smirnoff against -- and his family. the washington post today estimates that fox news alone mentioned it more than 2600 times, over the past single

year. republicans in congress pushed the allegations endlessly, even though the fbi explicitly warned people that the claim was uncorroborated, and unreliable. and now, the man who is the source of the allegation, the guy who said it, he is in jail, indicted for lying to federal investigators about this very matter, and accused by prosecutors of feeding the fbi disinformation from russian intelligence. which would be shocking, had we not lived through the last few years. because, this of course is now the third straight presidential election cycle in which russian intelligence has done subversion of this. in 2016, as you may have heard, russian intelligence hacked the democratic national committee, and the hillary clinton campaign. and then they weaponized the material they stole, by releasing hacked emails through wikileaks, and timed and strategically released to have maximum negative effect for clinton and the democrats, and maximum positive effect for donald trump and the

republicans. and it was well known at the time that this whole thing was likely a russian intelligence operation. but trump and republicans in conservative media, and the mainstream media, frankly, mostly ate it up, and pounced on every single email dump, as if they had just come down and meant sinai on tag that's -- fathoming shoveled by russian intelligence. into the garbage shoot. remember, trump talking at rallies about how much he loved wikileaks. he was welcoming, it he was asking for more. russian government and russian intelligence sources made multiple contacts with the trump campaign. russia ran a big, weird social media campaign to try to influence american public debate and public opinion in trump's favor. the trump campaign gave non public polling information to a russian intelligence agents, according to the senate intelligence committee. the russians had this hacked leak campaign with a democratic emails, they were very busy in 2016, trying to help trump. then four years later, 2020, another try.

this time, trump's lawyer, rudy giuliani was peddling stories about joe biden's supposed corruption that he said he had dug up from his sources in ukraine. once again, it turned out that giuliani's main source was russian intelligence. a report from the u.s. office of the director of national intelligence later determined that giuliani source was part of a u.s. election interference operation, likely directed by putin himself. with the goal of helping trump win a second term in 2020. and once again, republicans have been warned by american intelligence officials that the stuff that giuliani was shoveling was likely part of a russian op. they apparently just did not care. and again, this is not some obscure thing. people got sanctioned by the u.s. government for, this people got indicted by the u.s. justice department for this. but, who cares, it might have helped trump, so we went along with it, as far as we could. and now, four years later, here we are again. they keep doing this every

election cycle, they keep doing some version of the same thing. the russians keep doing the same thing. what seems to be changing, a little bit, is that the republicans appear to have fewer and fewer qualms each year about welcoming, and even participating, in these russian campaigns. fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. fool me three times, i clearly want to be fooled, or maybe we should stop calling this foolish, this is something else. we did this in 2016, we did this in 2020, now in 2024, republicans appear to be more enthusiastic about participating in it then they ever have been before. but of course now, this russian disinformation campaign, trying to paint biden as mired in some kind of bribery scandal. it's happening with american aid to ukraine hanging in the balance. with this life or death question you -- about whether ukraine will be able to hold off a third year of the russian

invasion. but russia is doing everything it can to undermine american support for ukraine, and in the midst of a third straight effort by russia to influence our election, to republicans benefits, republicans, frankly, seen quite receptive both to that election interference, and to what russia wants them to do in cutting off ukraine. how does that turn around? fiona hill was the top russia official in the national security council under president from. she has seen some things, and she knows some things, and she joins us next. s, and she joins us next.

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democrats agree. conservative republican steve garvey is the wrong choice for the senate. ...our republican opponent here on this stage has voted for donald trump twice. mr. garvey, you voted for him twice... as your own man, what is your decision? garvey is wrong for california. but garvey's surging in the polls. fox news says garvey would be a boost to republican control of the senate. stop garvey. adam schiff for senate. i'm adam schiff, and i approve this message. president putin and the russian security services operate like a super pac. they deploy millions of dollars to weaponize our own political opposition research and false narratives. when we are consumed by partisan rancor, we cannot combat these external forces, as they seek to divide us against each other, degrade our institutions, and destroy --

the american people and now democracy. >> fiona hill, testifying at president trump's first to impeachment, describing how -- faith in our own democracy is the kind of center of the bulls eye. that's what they are aiming at, when they try to hurt us the worst. well now in this election cycle, republican members of congress have been trumpeting claims that turned out to have come from russian intelligence. the informant at the center of their impeachment pushed president biden today was ordered jailed, as he awaits trying for lying to the fbi. feeding them would prosecutors say is disinformation, targeting president biden, that he got from russian intelligence. joining us now is fiona hill, former senior director for europe and russia at the national security council. doctor, hill it's really nice of you to be with us tonight. thanks very much for taking the time. >> well thanks rachel. >> both nbc news and the washington post today led with big stories about how this is the third straight election cycle, where we've got pretty aggressive russian efforts to mess with us in this election.

do you agree with that characterization? >> i do. and look, i mean very sadly, the russians have been at these kinds of operations for an extraordinary long time, and going back to the cold war. there been lots of efforts as well. but unfortunately, we've made it easier for them than ever before to be able to penetrate our politics, and be able to influence, because it basically the structure of our own election campaigns. we've got basically our own political parties, that are trying to destroy each other. and as you've been pointing out through the course of the program, we've got actress now on political systems who are just as keen on using disinformation as foreign adversaries. >> because, you look at it with that long sweep, i feel like that's one of the big reasons i want to talk to you. because i've been very focused on 2016, 2020, and 2024. when russian disinformation, russian targeting of us wasn't just about letting us haiti -- >> and making as weak and

distrust our democracy, it really was dovetailing with, and therefore boosting, donald trump, and the republican campaign, and helping one side and hurting the other. and maybe that's not their long term goal, but it's really at least in their short to medium term goal. and that seems to be activating an instinct in the republican party, if putin likes us, maybe we should like him back. and i'm wondering if there is, if you see a way to interrupt that? >> well look, i think also, it requires responsible people within the republican party themselves to push back against this. it's not every single person who is a member of that party. you've got nikki haley out there, who is running now -- almost a futile campaign to compete with donald trump, who is obviously saying something quite different in calling out. and on the disinformation, props -- in the same way you are, but she is certainly trying to do. that and you know and i, know and many other people know that behind the scenes, there are

members of the staff, the senior staff on capitol hill, people in the senate, and surprisingly still, members of congress who, behind the scenes, are really deeply troubled by, this and are trying to do something. but in the heat of this campaign, as you are pointing, out there seems to be much more interest in taking potshots at president biden, or basically trying to bring down their opponents, and thinking about national security. and i would have thought, however, that given everything that's happened with the war in ukraine, the recent death of alexei navalny, and just this piling up of information, just as you are seeing now, this criminal campaign, rather this prosecution that the fbi informant, that surely people have woken up to. this i mean, this is an issue of our national security, not just something about whether your guy is going to win in the election. >> on the national security point. i think of the united states is having a lot of tools to stand up for our national security, a lot of resources to bring to bear. but when it comes to defending

ourselves against russian election interference, when it comes to standing up to our ally in ukraine, in all the different ways that that means. when it comes to responding to the murder of alexei navalny in russia, it could the u.s. government be doing more? -- join me last week here, and she said something that stuck with me all week. she said that if the united states government really wanted to get more serious, one of the things that they could do was have thousands of people working on enforcing sanctions, to make sure that a bit harder, and that they hurt the russian government more, and more effectively. i want to get your response to that, but also just find out if you think there is more that we could be doing. >> there's certainly a lot more that we could be doing. as -- points out, sanctions enforcement as part of the problem. i mean, we are actually seeing in some of our own allied countries that have basically bought more and more oil from russia, and enabling them to bring in more revenues, of course to keep on prosecuting the war against ukraine. we've got nato allies, european

countries, as well as i said, these larger global partners. we don't have to figure out -- directly, it's going to be stepped up diplomacy, which the administration is already talking about. but she also does have a point about putting more resources towards this now. i mean, we are of course also on the verge of a government shutdown, we also have members of the republican party, and donald trump talking about basically dismantling the state apparatus, which make it very difficult. but we can be much more creative, we can work very closely with other european allies, who are actually really waking up to the threats, to get them also to exert pressure, and to push back. we've got the debate about what we can do about russian frozen assets, for example, which is a major issue right now, which i know you've covered quite recently as well. and then when we get back to the topic you're talking about, about disinformation, some of the other cases that are running through, even including the supreme court right now about freedom of speech and the regulation of the social media platform, it's become relevant

as well. because basically, x, or as it used to be, twitter, in terms of stepping back from the regulation of some of -- the content on their platform, have opened it up even more to disinformation. from russia. and other companies like meta, for example, and microsoft, they have actually been trying to do more here. but we should also be encouraging the private sector to step up at this crucial time. >> indeed. fiona hill, former senior director for europe and russia at the national security council, i really appreciate you being with us here tonight, top of all these different matters. really appreciate your time. >> thanks rachel, thank you. >> we will be right back, stay with us. thank you. >> we will be right back, stay with us. because liberty mutual customized my car insurance ani saved hundreds. that's great. i know, right? i've been telling everyone. baby: liberty. did you hear that? ty just said her first word. can you say “mama”? baby: liberty. can you say “auntie”? baby: liberty.

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keep her in. then the first who filed a lawsuit to force her out, they picked a new chair. the national republican party is siding with the new guy, saying he is the rightful head of the michigan republican party. but the original chair calls the new guys faction an impostor organization, fraudulently claiming to be the michigan republican party. she also posted a ten minute video under this amazing caption. quote, chairwoman karamo provides valuable insights that will soon come to light. see, she provides them, and they're coming soon. it's like organizing your own surprise party. so here's what we know, and we think we know. there will be a michigan party -- the premier will determine who gets some of michigan's delegates. the rest of the delegates will be chosen through saturday, through a state party convention, or maybe through a food fight? michigan, because michigan republicans can't figure this, out this saturday they are not

one, but two competing michigan republican conventions. one in grand rapids, announced by the guy who says he's the chair, one in detroit, announced by the lady who says she's the chair, and he's an impostor. she, it should be noted, still controls the state parties website, and its bank accounts. so she's got that. when the stakes are this low, political chaos can be fun to watch. it is like a food fight. you know it's wasteful, but it's hard not to laugh at flying oatmeal, right? pity the michigan republican voter who just wants to cast a ballot. i mean, do you decide based on how far grand rapids is from your house, or detroit? do you decide based on whether you like pete or christina moore as a name, or as a person, or who seems like the impostor? which michigan republican party will end up being real? will a judge get it sorted out in time for the convention on saturday? watch this space. this space.

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