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>> i don't know. we'll have to see. we'll have to try to -- >> declassify, right? as president, i could have declassified them. now i can't. >> donald trump indicted for his mishandling of classified documents will reportedly receive intelligence briefings as the nominee of his party. that decision apparently coming from president biden himself. we'll discuss. also tonight, president biden's state of the union address. he needs to convince americans that his very real accomplishments have made their lives better while trying to close the enthusiasm gap with trump -- with trump -- we'll discuss with trump transportation secretary pete buttigieg who will join me. plus, will nikki haley supporters drink the maga kool-aid, or does biden have a chance to win them over? we begin tonight with the state of the presidential race, on state of the union night. we're now just two hours away from president biden's final state of the union address

before the presidential election. it is an annual tradition that in a presidential year also amounts to a sitting president's biggest audience before which he can make a pitch for re-election, talking about what his administration has accomplished and what more can be accomplished if the american people agree to give the president a second term. there are other presidential traditions, things presidents do not by law but rather by custom, which brings us to a different president. harry s. truman, our 33rd president. in 1945, he had been vice president for just 82 days when four-term president franklin roosevelt died and he suddenly inherited the presidency in the midst of the second world war. truman learned quickly that he had been kept in the dark about some pretty important things like the manhattan project, development of the atomic bomb. he was told about that 12 days into the job. so in 1952, truman began the courtesy of allowing intelligence briefings for party presidential nominees. he pledged that any future

commander in chief wouldn't get thrown into the deep end of the pool the way he had been. now, in a normal world with normal presidential candidates, that makes a lot of sense, right? but 72 years later, our 46th president, joe biden, has an opponent who has been indicted four times, including 41 criminal charges regarding his handling of classified information. in his speech later tonight, biden will draw a clear contrast between himself and donald trump, including the many, many ways donald trump was unfit for office the first time, and even more unfit to return to the white house. but according to politico, despite the fact that the president plans to make that point about unfitness tonight, the biden administration intends to extend that truman tradition and courtesy of offering cand dd intelligence briefings to donald trump. notice that it would mark the first time an administration has volunteered to share classified information with a candidate who is facing criminal charges related to the mishandling of

classified documents. which is completely illogical for many obvious reasons. but especially so because just two weeks into his own presidency and one month after donald trump incited an insurrection, president biden barred trump from the briefings that are normally extended to former presidents. citing his erratic behavior. "the new york times" noted that the move was the first time that a former president had been cut out of the briefings. the briefings are offered on a regular basis to jimmy carter, bill clinton, george w. bush, and barack obama. now i'm telling you all of this because it is an unfortunate reality of where we are right now. donald trump, who was clearly not capable of handling america's secrets to the point that he's being criminally indicted over it will get access to at least some national security information, both because the current president is a normal guy, a traditionalist who behaved like a normal president and because a uforically enthusiastic base of maga voters want trump back in the white house so he can be a

dictator. and you know, have the party in those same supporters pay off his massive legal dents and maybe with the help of foreign dictators, who knows. it's a bizarre reality to say the least, which highlights the other challenge president biden faces with tonight's state of the union. call it the facts versus the vibe. trump has nothing to show for his presidency, except that giant, enormous tax cut for the super rich plus 1 million people killed by covid on his watch, and the economy that cratered because of it. but the maga faithful and nearly every elected republican are all in for another round of that poison beer, serve it to us cold, serve it warm, we don't care, we just want more, more, more, yay, chaos. president biden on the other hand is dealing with the opposite problem. he will speak tonight from a position of vulnerability. a successful domestic policy president who faces a democratic base that ranges from super enthusiastic to mildly

enthusiastic centrists who will crawl over broken glass to keep trump out of the white house, to really, really disappointed, even angry progressives who hate biden's middle east policy, and in some cases do not want to vote for him at all. and again, biden does have tangible achievements. you cannot argue with that. he's overseen an historically rebounding economy after an unprecedented public health crisis. he got a major infrastructure law passed. he's held together nato, which has grown since his last state of the union. sweden has just become a member. sweden's prime minister will be a guest at tonight's speech. you can expect president biden to highlight that. while his opponent donald trump says he will cut off nato countries that don't pay their fair share and let putin do, and i quote, whatever the hell putin wants to do to our allies. donald trump is an autocratic nightmare with no accomplishments, a rabid cult of a fan club and no business being

anywhere near the white house. president biden has accomplishments and facts. but the vibes are off. call it the intractable reality of american politics in 2024. joining me now, claire mccaskill, former senator from missouri, msnbc political analyst and cohost of the msnbc podcast, how to win 2024. michael beschloss, nbc news presidential historian. jamelle bouie, "new york times" opinion columnist and cohost of the unclear and present danger podcast, and ben rhodes, former deputy national security adviser, msnbc political contributor and cohost of the pod save the world podcast. thank you all for being here. nomally, there have so many different ways i would go at this. historian first, ladies first, jamelle bouie is our newest friend of the show, but i'm going to switch it up and go to you, ben, because that news kind of dropped like an anvil on us on our presidential show meeting today, that donald trump will actually get these national security briefings. how does that read to you? can i hope and dream that maybe this is just a way to catch him

sharing those national security briefings? maybe they'll give him wrong information and see if he sends it to putin so they can catch him. what is happening? >> well, i think, joy, you spoke to the awkwardness of this. joe biden a president who follows norms. but that's difficult when you're dealing with someone in donald trump who literally is a wrecking ball through any norms. so there's kind ofasymmetry. biden wants to go by the book, but you can't have faith the person you're dealing with goes by the book. i wouldn't say receiving briefings isn't the same as making a determination about what's in the briefings. the u.s. intelligence community in my experience of a consumer of intelligence for eight years can provide kind of wave top analysis. here's what we see is going on in ukraine. here's the status of what's going on in gaza. and they can share information in ways that frankly totally obscures sensitive sources, sensitive operations, and i would imagine that donald trump is going to be getting, and

again, i'm not saying this with inside knowledge, but there's a cliff notes version that you can get. and then there's the version that has the underlying source material that you would be worried of donald trump announcing at a rally or sharing with a friend at mar-a-lago or sharing with a russian agent who has infiltrated mar-a-lago at a wedding or something. so i would expect that this is probably going to be fairly basic information that is shared. if not, i would actually have real concerns because we have no indication that this person can keep a secret for the time between when he reads something and when he next opens his mouth. >> michael, just talk about the sort of historical weirdness of all this. we have never had an indicted presidential nominee, certainly 91 counts and four indictments, sexual assault adjudication. you could go on and on. this piece is weird because part of the job that president biden has to do tonight is make the case that donald trump is

completely -- he's fit for president in a way that contrasts with donald trump's unfitness. let me read you, i'm going to read a little bit of the excerpts of what we got. he says my lifetime has taught me to embrace freedom and democracy. a future based on the core values that have defined america. honestly, decency, dignity, equality, to give everyone a fair shot. to give hate no safe harbor. some other people my age, a little dig there, see a different story, a story of resentment, revenge, and retribution. people know at least something in the national security realm is going to be shared with that person. your thoughts. >> yeah, joe biden studied history when he was in school, and he knows enough to know that we have never seen anything like this in the history of american presidents. as you well know, joy. when before, every nominee of a major party all the way back to the 18th century have we ever heard a president saying that he wanted to be a dictator for a

day or would entertain the idea of suspending the constitution, or tomorrow, donald trump is going to be meeting with someone he has cited as a model, the dictator of hungary. if you needed anything to demonstrate that whatever caution joe biden suggests tonight about his opponent is true, take a look at who his guest at mar-a-lago is going to be tomorrow afternoon. >> yeah, and claire, it contrasts with the guests who will be in the room tonight. i mean, you're going to see highlighted people who have dealt with the issue of abortion and ivf. you're going to see sort of, because that's part of what you do at the state of the union. the guests indicate kind of what you're trying to convey. talk a little bit about what you expect to hear from president biden tonight, what you think would be most helpful to hear. >> i honestly don't think what he says is as important as how he says it. he's got to be feisty and aggressive. he's got to be leaning in with

real strength, not just about his accomplishments but about how great this country is. and that's where his optimism and his aspirational side can kick in and remind americans what it's like to have a leader who thinks we are a good country instead of somebody who wants to convince everyone that our country sucks. which is trump's campaign slogan. you know, america is terrible. don't we hate america? and all of its institutions. >> it's been terrible except for those four years it was great. >> exactly. listen, i don't think he should let him have the intelligence briefings because i think he has to take it to this guy and denying him the intelligence briefings would be one way to send a signal, we're not going to put up with somebody who steals our country's secrets and refuses to turn them over and tries to hide them from the law. so i don't think he should. and orban, you know, do we need to say anything more? you're going to be down at a club, joy, where you have to spend hundreds of thousands of

dollars to walk in the door. gilded toilets and all that, and they're going to have a guy in who decimated the free press, who decimated private business, who absolutely changed the democracy to the point that he controls everything. and who is full of corruption. and that's who donald trump wants to hang out with at his fancy golf club. it is quite a contrast to the women who are going to be there tonight demonstrating to this country that their health care is really being jeopardized by an extreme position of the republican party. >> and jamelle bouie, talk about the challenge tonight. because the briefings thing i think sort of brings forward for me that joe biden sort of constitutionally small "c" constitutionally unsuited to the job of combat. in a sense that he's not a combative politician which makes it ironic you have a lot of maga voters who are calling him some sort of unhinged woke super liberal radical. because he's just so unradical

that he's just going to do the traditional thing of doing the briefings. he's not going to name trump by name, he'll glance at him but not really hit him that way. in this moment what do you make of that as a strategy, that he's still going to be the centrist mild-mannered fighter? >> i am not sure that it's the optimal strategy for the simple reason i think it's very important for biden in particular but democrats to be explicit about the criticisms and attacks they're making on their opponent. there's temptation to thing everyone knows everything about poll. there's plenty of polling to show that people don't necessarily associate donald trump for example with the end of roe v. wade. they don't necessarily think about january 6th anymore when they think donald trump. those are things you have to remind voters of. you have to tell voters of this thing over and over again.

to understand the sort of the notion that you're not going to mention the guy, i'm not going to mention this dude, i think it's worthwhile to be explicit about it. the reason why i need to be re-elected is because donald trump overturned roe v. wade. it's obviously not the most accurate way to render it, but that's sort of effectively the message you want to send. and you need people to hear those words. donald trump ended roe v. wade. that's kind of the key thing voters need to take away. i'm not sure that being oblique about it is necessarily effective. and i think that the notion that there's something unbecoming about being explicit and not being aggressive is a relic of an older style of politics that may not necessarily apply in 2024. >> right, and is there a history, michael, our buddy historian, he's our official show historian at this point, is there a history, the state of the union can use whatever they

want, there's no laws attached. this is the last one before the campaign. is there a history of anyone taking the state of the union and saying this is probably my biggest audience going to get this year and i'm going to hit my opponent square in the face? >> not in the way that you see in a convention speech. for instance, harry truman, who i think joe biden is trying to resemble this year, not only in the comeback but also the feistiness at his convention, he was directly confronting people who were saying he and his running mate were going to lose and he begins the speech by saying senator barkley and i will win this election and make those republicans like it, don't you forget that. i don't think we're going to hear anything like that tonight, but there doesn't need to be false drama. this is a night that in many ways is like 1860. the country was about to be destroyed by the evil institution of slavery, and a civil war, and the breaking up of the union. or 1941, when fdr was facing

down hitler and mussolini and the imperial japanese, and domestic people in this country who wanted a fascist system themselves. so all biden needs to do, i think, is to make it clear, you know, americans, a lot of people have risked and given their lives over centuries to protect your rights and to expand your rights. are you willing to give all of that up by voting for a gambling opponent, someone who is an ex-president, who loves dictators and wants dictatorship here. >> and you talk about false drama. there could be real drama. this is adam schiff when he won his primary in california. i want you to listen to what happened. >> this is my wife, eve.

i want to -- [ crowd chanting ] >> so ben, i'm going to go to you first. the previous state of the union speech, you had marjorie taylor greene doing her silliness. biden handled the right-wing heckling brilliantly last time. they started cheering, he said, cheer, get up. and that was on a domestic policy issue where i think he's strong. on this issue if there are some protests, what does he do? that is part of his core weakness with some of his base. is that they're not happy about his policies in the middle east. >> well, look, joy. you and i have talked about really the most important thing he can do is shift his policy on gaza and kind of really be pressing for a cease-fire across the board. and not just kind of privately with this kind of caught in the middle, we don't like what israel is doing, but we refuse to use leverage against israel. that said, if there is protest,

at the state of the union or anywhere for that matter, it's a moment for him to demonstrate a degree of empathy and concern for the kinds of things that are compelling people to protest. i think they miss an opportunity for it after the michigan uncommitted vote in president biden's statement. he made no mention of that effort. and so i think what there has to be is more of an effort to demonstrate, look, i understand why people are this upset. here is how i'm trying to make changes to address this issue. and frankly, set it into where he's trying to go on this. i had to work on eight of them and almost always, there was some crisis happening in the world that we had to address, but it's not just like a status report. it's about projecting a vision forward, about where you're going. if it's just about your accomplishments or what you're doing today on gaza, that's a missed opportunity. it's got to project forward. this is what i'm trying to do. this is how everything from my

middle east policy to my domestic policy fits into a vision for where this country is going. i worked on the 2012 state of the union for barack obama. it was more about the next four years or the previous four years or the exact moment. on gaza, he has a policy problem that's causing a political problem. it's not something that can be handled just through optics. again, if he can show that empathy for why people in his coalition are so upset about this and understanding that their concerns are valid while projecting forward, here's the kind of president i'm trying to be, here's what i'm trying to do and here's how it contrasts with the other side, frankly even on things like gaza would be far, far worse, then he can continue to build back some of that enthusiasm or at least openness among elements of his coalition that are feeling a sense of drift right now. >> i wish we had more time, thank you all very much. transportation secretary pete buttigieg joins me as we

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i like joe biden. like i just said, i mean, the honest truth is as the president, i'm surprised that he doesn't get more credit. we are going out to buy a new lightning ford f-150 truck. i'm putting solar panels on my property. i'm putting a tesla battery wall. it's all because of the infrastructure package he passed. there's thousands of dollars of

tax incentives for me. it's great for the economy. >> president biden tonight is expected to focus on his economic accomplishments by the infrastructure package in his state of the union address, but his challenge will be selling an economy that's great on paper to the many americans who say they still aren't feeling it. joining me is transportation secretary pete buttigieg. i'm sure you were happy to hear that gentleman say he's going out and buying his tesla wall and i think i have experienced and heard both of those two things. people who may be a little more informed about the civics of the way that government works will say, oh, yeah, i see this airport construction. oh, yeah, i see more jobs. oh, yeah, the unions seem to be making more money. they may connect that to president biden. but there are a lot of people who don't. they actually don't connect even their own improved conditions to the president. let me play a bit of that. this is other pennsylvania voters. take a listen. >> how does the economy feel to

you? >> doesn't feel well. you know, it says everything is doing better, but it doesn't feel that way. >> i never planned on using some of the money that i saved to retire that i had to use because of the economy. >> groceries, gas, everything you have to buy every day is way more expensive than previous years. >> do you feel like there's a disconnect between what the biden administration is saying about how good the economy is versus what you feel? >> absolutely. absolutely. >> what is going on? how can both of those groups of people be right? >> well, first of all, of course, every american, every household has a different story. and it's also the case that it can take longer to feel the wage gains happening right now than it took to experience the price increases that happened. by the way, happened in every developed economy in the world, but less here in the united states under president biden's

leadership. but now, we can confidently say that wages are going up faster than prices. prices on things from airline tickets to eggs are actually down compared to where they were. but of course, it takes a while for that to flow through. there's a lot of reasons americans have had a lot of frustration. we're still in many years psychologically recovering from a pandemic that killed a million americans. we're dealing with challenges at home and abroad. but the predwill have an opportunity tonight not just to talk about numbers, but to lay out in terms of concrete examples and specific stories what it means for bridges and roads to be fixed in every part of the country, what it took to have this record-setting job creation, the simple fact that right now for most americans, if you want a job, you can get a job. that was not true when president biden took office. that took a lot of work. credit for that is not given out freely. the president will correctly, i think, be taking credit for some

of his achievements tonight and throughout this year. >> i think it's true and most people would say it's time for the biden administration, for the president to take more credit for some of the things people are seeing. you cannot miss the roads, you see it. but is it necessary at this point to present more policy that will address the things that are sort of lagging indicators. rent being high, people not being able to afford groceries which are still relatively high relative to other things. is the president going to present new policy to say here's something i can do to help with rent, with grocery bills? is that something we'll hear tonight? >> yes, but that's a great point. this conversation in tonight's address is going to be about the future. not just the past. you hear the president, it's to authenticate what's going to happen next. take $35 insulin. he was able to get that done for

every senior in america. he could get it done for every person in america if congressional republicans would change course and help him do that. there are so many examples like that where we have achieved a lot, could do more, but we would need cooperation from congress. i think he's going to lay that out tonight. >> is this going to be more about contrasting with things that congress could do if they would cooperate but that they won't or things that the president could do without them? because congress is not going to cooperate, i think as we all know. >> yeah, i think you're going to see both. take the president's focus on junk fees which is one of the main areas he's working to bring down everyday costs in everyday life for americans. some things would take an act of congress, but he has directed all of the departments of his administration, including mine, to find ways to go after those junk fees whether they're charged by an airline, a hotel, a credit card company. and those are things we're going to continue doing under his leadership, whether congress cooperates or not.

that being said, the infrastructure bill, which is part of his accomplishments i have the most time to -- that i'm the most engaged with and get to work on the most, was in fact delivered with bipartisan support. people laughed at his idea you could get anything done in this town on a bipartisan basis, yet he was able to lead that kind of work. i think asserting what has been possible through bipartisan cooperation while being very realistic and having no illusions about how much cooperation we will or won't get in this congress, i think you'll see that balance throughout the evening. what will be crystal clear in terms of the contrast is the difference in vision. and what the president is about. not just what he's done, legislative accomplishments benefitting everyone from veterans to construction workers. >> pete buttigieg, always a pleasure. thank you for being here. >> still ahead, with nickki haly out of the race, will biden be able to bring her supporters into the fold or will they give

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. what made you switch from trump to nikki haley? >> the man is a lunatic. and i think he's terrible for the country. >> what are you thinking about when you say that? >> just that he lies. he cheats. he bankrupted millions of

businesses and people. and i don't see anything good about him. >> let me ask, if donald trump is the nominee in november, do you support joe biden over donald trump? >> no. >> america is speaking. well, one american at least, saying donald trump is terrible, but she still won't support joe biden. so what happens now? is biden capable of flipping the nikki haley voters or will they come home and vote for trump since he's the republican, vote third party, or stay home? joining me is sarah matthews, former trump white house deputy press secretary. this is the puzzle. thank you for being here. because i have heard tons of these. that the person says there was one person who literally called trump a lunatic, but asked will you vote for biden, oh, no, absolutely not. in the end, they sort of came back to if it was down to the two of them, they would still vote for trump. what can biden say to get that person they think is terrible to

vote for him? >> look, exactly, i think there are going to be a fraction of these nikki haley voters who are going to have a tough time supporting joe biden, and i would say to them that look, i have never voted for a democrat a day in my life, but i have publicly stated if my choices are trump versus biden i would be willing to put policy aside can cast my vote for joe biden for democracy. i think that joe biden needs to lay out that case tonight in his speech because democracy is under attack right now. if the thought of donald trump being able to be our leader again. and i think that he needs to spell that out tonight. and make that case and appeal to those voters. i thought that biden smartly responded when nikki haley dropped out of the race by saying look, there is a place for you in my campaign. to her supporters. donald trump, he said that anyone who supported nikki haley would be, quote, permanently barred from maga. he doesn't have interest in trying to win over their support. even if joe biden is able to win

over a fraction of those supporters then this election is going to be marginally close and those people could be a deciding factor. >> take us inside a little bit. again, you worked for donald trump, and of course, january 6th was like, yeah, that's a no for me, and wisely, i think, you decided democracy matters more. but i think you had a breaking point, right? but take us inside, what is it about joe biden, who for those of us observing him for a long time is the down the line moderate, not even a progressive. the progressives are not happy with him, so he's definitely a moderate. what is it about joe biden that enrages republicans so much? >> i think there are a lot of republicans right now who view the state of the country as not great. and that's evidenced in the polling in joe biden's approval rating. they say the economy isn't doing well. obviously, we know there are metrics that show that the economy is improving, but i think when inflation hit its peak in 2022, people are still roving from that. maybe the effects of the current

economy haven't trickled down yet. i think joe biden needs to kind of keep making that case that the economy is improving. i think he's got some time between now and november that the economy will get even better so hopefully that will bode well for them. i think these republicans also look at issues like immigration. and they haven't been happy with his leadership on it. to be quite frank, i haven't been necessarily happy with his leadership on it and think he had three years to do something about it and kind of avoided this issue, and now, when we're seeing it's one of the top issues for voters obviously he tried to strike a deal with house republicans and they shot that down because they want donald trump to be able to campaign on this issue rather than find a solution. which is really disappointing, but that's why i'm hopeful tonight in biden's state of the union speech, he'll use this as an opportunity to hopefully announce executive action on the border because i think that could be a way to appeal to these types of republicans who are not really wanting to support trump, but might have a hard time voting for joe biden.

>> so we know that robert f. kennedy jr. is getting on more ballots sort of around the country and it's not clear who he hurts more, people who are anti-vax tend to support him, but progressives, he's to the right of joe biden on things like israel. it's not clear who he would attract. because it does feel like a lot of this is team jersey stuff. you're either a "d" or an "r" like being a sports fan and you only vote for your team. so even if your team person is terrible, you're like, yeah, but they're not the other team. it feels like that's some of the way americans vote. is that a possibility that's where nikki haley's voters go. he does ps seem to fit them either, but is this a situation where people would rather vote third party than biden in your view? >> i think there will be some people who vote third party. i'm not sure if nikki haley supporters will go there. i think what we're going to end up seeing is probably a lot of people leaving the top of the ballot blank or maybe writing someone in. to those people, i would say

that i would encourage them to vote for joe biden even if they don't agree with the policies. i think that the threat that we face as a country, trump is so unique that we need to be able to put partisanship aside and save our democracy, because that's quite frankly what i'm worried about. if donald trump is elected president again, it will be the end of our democracy as we know it. he has said that he would be a dictator on day one. he has said that he wants to install loyalists across the government to carry out every wish and demand. there wouldn't be people of good character to push back on his worst instincts so those people should probably instead of wasting your vote on a third party who would never win, vote for joe biden. >> i hope that a lot of people listen to you because our democracy genuinely is at stake. coming from somebody who worked for the man, that is serious business. listen to this lady. thank you so much. we appreciate you. >> still ahead, the republicans' new speaker mike johnson is a big fan of at least two proven

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voices of people with cidp: but living with cidp doesn't have to. when you sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com, you'll find inspiration in real patient stories, helpful tips, reliable information, and more. cidp can be tough. but finding hope just got a little easier. sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com. all: be heard. be hopeful. be you. in tonight's state of the union address, president biden will focus on a key issue, abortion. he's planning to say, quote, if americans send me a congress that supports the right to choose, i promise you i will restore roe v. wade as the law

of the land again. now, while he's been steadfast in his support for reproductive rights, he hasn't always articulated it in the best way. telling the new yorker recently while explaining his support for roe that he's, quote, never been supportive of, you know, it's my body i can do what i want with it. a confounding statement at a moment that is predicated for a movement that is literally predicated on my body my choice. tonight's address will be a crucial moment to galvanize the progressive vote. and it is a vote that biden and democrats should be able to secure since the republican position is straight out of the handmaid's tale. that contrast will be highlighted tonight. the president's plans to say, quote, clearly those bragging about overturning roe v. wade have no clue about the power of women in america. additionally, jill biden will be joined by kate cox, the texas woman who had to ask the court's permission to have a life-saving abortion, which they denied, forcing her to leave the state. and lutore yeah beasley, whose embryo transfer was canceled after the alabama supreme court

ruled that embryos are children. and republicans know that they're in trouble with alabama scrambling to pass a law to protect ivf in the wake of the decision. the person chosen to deliver the republican response, katie britt, exemplifies that problem. she pushed for that ivf protection, but she said she's 100% pro-life and life begins at conception, a position that doesn't fully make sense and why this has become an issue in alabama in the first place. that contradiction was clear today in what speaker mike johnson who will be sitting directly behind president biden tonight and has extreme christian nationalist and antiabortion views said in an interview today. that feckless answer is up next.

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there's this question of embryos in the process, they are destroyed, disposed of. if you believe life begins at

conception fertilization, and i know you do. do you see that as murder? >> it's something that we've got to grapple with. it's a brave new world. we support the sanctity of life, of course. and support i vf. we believe in the sanctity of life. and if you do believe life beginsa at conception, it's a question to wrestle with. >> but he didn't answer it. what he was clear about was this is not an issue that congress will be taking up. joining me is robert p. jones. president television the religious institute. and irin. did you understand his answer? and how did they fix this conundrum? if you think life begins at conception, once you freeze the babies, you have to keep them. have you to use them. >> you know, there's a lot of strategic vagueness. and we know the reason why

they're being so vague. this is the logical conclusion of their position. as our old friend tony made very clear. if you truly believe life begins at conception, as mike johnson, soldier of the christian rights, certainly does. you will be concerned about things like freezing embryos in ways that they may not surprise if you thaw them. that is something that happens routinely, when people have multiple embryos. if you drill down what he's saying, he is saying he supports ivf, but wants toy strict it so profoundly, it would leave many people suffering with infertility with very few options. many were caught off guard that the natural restrictions on abortion, contraception and beyond, have now been staring everybody in the face in a way they can't hide. and the thing is, robby jones, the problem is, that they want the handmaid's tale. and it turns out, the

handmaid's tale is very popular. even if you haven't seen the series or read the book, no one wants to read "the handmaid's tale." but they want it. when i was in high school, they believed the far religious right was demonic. let's talk about this gentleman, mike johnson. he's not just a christian right member. he's a christian nationalist. tell us, what is christian nationalism? and how is it driving politics? >> thanks, joy. i think we saw in the clip, we saw a great example of the louisiana two-step in action, trying to get around the obvious contradictions here. but christian nationalism is really this idea that america is a country of, by, and for christians. and particularly, one kind of christianity. >> right. >> it is very clear, that it really is the group that is pushing this. and the group that is most representative.

evangelical protestant. about three in 10 americans qualify assist cian nationals. those who believe that the u.s. laws should be based on the bible, america should declare itself a christian nation, et cetera. but when you look at white evangelical protestants, it is two-thirds of that group who believes that. when you look at republicans, it is 55% of republicans that adhere to this worldview. and it just so happens that with the topic we're talking about. they're also one of only a couple of religious groups in the company. this is not even a religious secular issue really. most actually support the legality of abortion, including latino protestants. i'm sorry. latino catholics and white catholics in the country. if you look at -- even among white evangelicals. but even among white evangelicals, 70% oppose the

legality of abortions. but even in that group, if you ask how many americans support a total ban on abortion in the country, you know, it is less than one in 10. it is 9%. and even if you look at white evangelicals themselves, it's only 17%. 17. even of white evangelicals who say they want a complete and total ban. he is way out in left field here, not only with the country, but with his own constituents. >> the problem is, irin, the way that the power is distributed, it's disproportionately distributed to rural area americans or disproportionately falling into this group. and the house gives them power. and a lot of them who adhere to it. it is interesting to message around this. ivf is affluent. they don't care about poor women. they have babies conceived through rape. they don't care about that. they're scared about the rich

women, the affluent women. but now there is this push to play this baby olivia video. this shows misconceptions of when it is a viable fetus. they want to play it in schools. what you're seeing as a playbook. they want to convince women, you want to live in "the handmaid's tale." >> even though theoretically, they support ivf. ivf, when it is successful puts the power in the hands of individual family and women, to decide when they're ready to have a baby. the broader agenda of we decide when you have a baby, is undermined when people feel like they can plan their families, whether it's to have a an abortion, to use contraception or if they have fertility. if they have a series of miscarriages. there's lots of reasons to have

ivf. i think ultimately, what ties all of this together. and for the same reason, you are going to have courtney watts, a woman who was criminalized for having a miss taerpblg. kate cox, who was denied an abortion in her home state of texas, and was forced to travel, even though she had a nonviable pregnancy. i think what ties it all together is this fundamental system. and a small democratic core would like to take it out of the hands of people who can reproduce. >> it's always about controlling women, y'all. it's never been about babies. if it was about babies, it would be healthcare and school lunch. there you go. robert p. jones, we're going to have this conversation again. that is tonight's reidout. don't go anywhere. our special coverage of president biden's state of the union address starts right now. mr. speaker!