>> there's different sides to this issue. right now he is not winning either over. he is very underwater on the issue in total. the more he goes the more he is underwater on this issue. certainly in political, practical terms. thank you very much. i appreciate it. that is all in for this week. >> we haven't been together for special coverage. >> we are sitting next to each other. >> i peek behind the curtain. >> i talked to from the

immediate experience of the screen. >> listen, you deserve a really great weekend and i hope you have one. >> you do too. >> and thanks to you at home for joining me tonight. there are a lot of words that you might expect to hear a president say over and over in a state of the union address. words like jobs, freedom or if it's a joe biden speech, folks. but he chose a different theme. he chose the word, predecessor. >> my predecessor. a former republican president tells putin, quote, and do whatever you want. my predecessor was seeking to see roe v wade overturned. he is the reason it was overturned and he brags about it. my predecessor failed the most basic duty to care. and i think that's unforgivable. i predecessor told the nra he is proud he did nothing on guns when he was president. my predecessor, and many in this chamber, want to -- by

repealing affordable care act. i'm not can let that happen. we stopped you 50 times before and we will stop you again. >> president biden did not utter donald trump's name once during that speech. but he referred to his predecessor more than a dozen times. that was just one of the ways that an animated, and according to every single newspaper headline today, a feisty joe biden used his state of the union to kickoff, officially, this year's general election. to reset his campaign and to kill the narrative that biden is too old and not up to the job. today the biden campaign was hot out of the gates with plans. transfer barnstorming and blanketing the airwaves. moving the troops to the battlefront. many, many plans. the president kicked off a

campaign blitz with a rally in pennsylvania, where he and the first lady stopped to eat pizza at the home of a small business owner. then he headed for philadelphia where he hammered donald trump and the republican party on the issue of abortion. >> angry republicans and donald trump want to pass a ban of the right to choose. those bragging about overturning roe v. wade have no clue about the power of women in america. no clue. they found out when reproductive freedom was on the ballot in 2022 and 2023. they will find out again in 2024. >> president biden follows up that speech with a campaign in atlanta, when following up to new hampshire for another appearance on monday. then on to michigan for another event on thursday. that to michigan stop will be

the first test of the biden coalition in that state since 100,000 democratic primary voters picked, "uncommitted" to signify the war in gaza. but that's not all. at the same time the biden campaign is dispatching an army of surrogates to swing states. kamala harris is in phoenix tonight for a reproductive rights event. that she will head to las vegas for an event focused on latino voters. they will be fanning out across the swing states. tom vilsack is headed to arizona. transportation secretary pete buttigieg is going to philly. and energy secretary jennifer granholm is making stops in ohio, wisconsin and michigan. president biden's most aggressive next steps are ones that can be best measured in dollars and cents. the biden team has already been running ads targeting voters of color, like the administration support for historically black

colleges. but the washington post reports today that the president is planning to launch a new $30 million ad campaign with ads on tv, radio and digital platforms running across eight battleground states. some of those ads are designed specifically to target those key parts of the democratic coalition, including black, latino and asian voters. the post also reports that the biden campaign plans to hire at least 350 new staffers across those key battleground states. that is more than triple the number of staffers currently employed on the biden campaign. so the surrogates are fanning out. the field teams are stacking up their clipboards and getting ready to knock on doors. the digital team is furiously pasting dark brandon laser eyes onto every picture they can. and the biden campaign appears to be deploying every resource at its disposal to stop donald trump from becoming president ever again. joining me now is the former key medications director for the clinton 2016 campaign and the obama white house.

also the cohost of the msnbc podcast, how to win 2024. also with me as the great michelle goldberg, an opinion columnist. it's great to see you both tonight. >> we've never been on together. >> history is being made this friday night. jen, let me first start with you. i think it feels like a very possible moment for the biden campaign. >> there was a lot of progress last night and we feel like there's a lot of possibilities. >> does a reset truly feeling something within biden's grasp right now? >> yes. i was feeling pretty good on tuesday. when you come out of the primary season you're like, okay, biden has a ton of money. trump is in the negative territory because of all of his legal problems. i was in detroit last friday. the republican convention was canceled because there were fist fights breaking out.

when we came out of the primary season there is the uncommitted vote. but it was the uncommitted vote, not voting for dean phillips. it was clear to say donald trump is an existential threat. we don't want to do anything to make him president. so there really isn't a lot of anti-biden energy to actually act on in the party. >> or at least it's moderated to not be nihilistic. >> it's moderated. trump is getting 93% of his voters. biden is getting 83% of his voters for 2020. that means biden has room to grow and trump is sort of tapping out. and then he had a great speech. it's not just that he can do the job well, he can speak about it well too. that just gives us reassurance. they have money, they're spending it, they are deploying it. you are like, we are going to have the biden trump fight. not the one we were worried

about the last six weeks pick >>'s you slept easy last night? >> no. because of the katie brace thing. >> i couldn't puzzle out what was so disturbing about it. it's was like a half hour. it was brutal. >> apologies on behalf of the news media. michelle, i feel like the republicans made a grave miscalculation last night by trying to bait biden into stumbling. or i don't know what. he seems to relish the combat. i want to play a sound last night that exemplifies his fighting irish. >> in november my team began serious negotiations with a bipartisan group of senators. the result was a bipartisan bill with a tougher set of border security forms that we've ever seen. it'll think so? you like that bill. that conservatives got together

and said it was a good bill. i will be darned. that's amazing. >> oh, you don't like that bill? really? then let's pass it. i thought that stuff just strengthened biden's hand. >> we sort of knew that. i'm someone that is often extremely anxious about the biden campaign. cold sweat terrifying sleepless nights. >> without katie brace response pick >> even if there was no response. but we know, we saw this last year. last year biden had these great moments when he was coming out on top and showing command of the room. it's not quite clear why republicans thought it would go differently for them this time unless they have really talked themselves into believing their own propaganda that he really is a walking corpse. i think that's right. so they ended up looking kind of soul and and caught off guard . >> james langford will be

mouthing, it's true. that's the lead republican negotiator on the bill that his party is brewing. unbelievable. >> than you had a bunch of people in ridiculous costumes. they just looked like shambolic. clouds is another. >> clouds is the tonight word. i do think, jen, it's a virtuous cycle. the stronger he is the stronger he gets. even today on the campaign trail and in philadelphia. that wasn't the state of the union. that was just biden on the campaign trail and it was a market difference from how he sounded in previous weeks. >> i think he probably has a lot of self-confidence. it doesn't mean that he will make mistakes and even made mistakes last night. but i think that i don't know

that we should expect to see holes and prove out of the speech. i know the president very much wants that. there's something going on in the world right now leader favorability ratings are really low in general. i don't know if that would really change. it does mean that -- reelected with low favorability ratings. but it shows us all that he is actually fine. he was as good, probably better last night and he was a year ago. and we have faith that the guy that is doing that in march is going to be an effective candidate all the way through. >> i also think the democrats have a core structural advantage, michelle. the party truly isn't about the individual. it's about the agenda. that's what you see in these off year elections. joe biden is not on the ballot and we can set aside how that might influence things. but it's not a cult of personality the way the right is. it's of party that cares about reproductive rights and fundamental institutional freedoms. and a host of other things that have nothing to do with the guy in charge, except for the fact he is implementing them.

>> that actually cuts both ways. you don't have this incredibly impassioned following that is going to turn out for donald trump. not a majority certainly. but a solid core. you will have the in the same way. can i do think there is something to energy. you need energy on a campaign to drive along uncommitted voters. occasional voters. voters who weren't necessarily plugged in. in as much as there is a sense of excitement and momentum it really helps. i remembered the obama campaign . the people felt passionately committed to this man really helped. this time you are going to substitute a passionate commitment to issues. it's why they've made abortion, even though joe biden doesn't want to say the word abortion, but it's why reproductive rights are so front and center in this campaign. we have seen that is something

people will turn out for over and over again. >> that's also the point of the surrogates. they do have to get the message out that the biden campaign is bigger than biden. it's about these issues. and if he has affective surrogates. tom vilsack. >> he got a big shout out from you tonight. >> that's what we do in this program. the idea that the biden campaign is a listing, an artist, messengers. one would hope and assume that would extend beyond just cabinet secretaries. >> i have never seen the party this united. rashida tlaib feels very passionately about wanting a permanent cease-fire in gaza. she held up a small side to protest. she did not disrupt the president. we all understand what the stakes are, even as we are concerned about individual issues. i think the party is united. there is a very effective cabinet that is well known

because a lot of them ran for president themselves. phenomenal governors. georgia, nevada, arizona. i was making michigan and wisconsin one word. and pennsylvania. we want tough phrases like we had in 2022. fresh battle, ready to go back in again. it wasn't just biden. it was his big tent. but i do feel proud of him from his performance last night. and not just because he got through it so well and was combative. we were laughing about that earlier. he was president biden. he had stepped out from the shadow of the man he worked for. he stepped out of the shadow of the man of trump that he succeeded. and you can see, he has a real theory. he's middle-class joe. he wants to bring the middle- class back. only he has the experience to

lead. could be the free leader of the world in this really difficult time because of how much he's been doing this for 50 years. >> you have an algeria gandhi reference in your back pocket. >> it's so hard. what he inherited and went through. now you are like, there he is. resident joe biden with a real theory of how to govern. a real vision of america. and optimistic at a time when even young people find it hard to be picked by an older person is like, i've seen us come back from worse. it makes you feel optimistic too. >> perhaps you'll sleep better tonight, my friend. certain bad things are in the rearview. my friends, let's do it again sometime soon. >> absolutely. >> it's great to have you on the show. we have a lot to get to this

evening as donald trump makes over the republican party, installing his personal pics to party leadership, including his daughter-in-law. what happens now? that's next. and later, fan boy meets strongman. we will talk about the right wing thing coming up. >> he's the boss. i know he's a great leader. —ands crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ are you still struggling with your bra? it's time for you to try knix. makers of the world's comfiest wireless bras. for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com if you're living with hiv,

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throughout my life are watching sports with my dad. now, i work at comcast as part of the team that created our ai highlights technology, which uses ai to detect the major plays in a sports game. giving millions of fans, like my dad and me, new ways of catching up on their favorite sport. with that now i am going to ask you to join me as recognizing president trump as our nominee and the next president of the united states. all those in favor signify by saying aye. >> that was mcdaniel's final act as the -- chair committee.

what technically might be considered election fraud. she officially stepped down today at the rnc spring meeting after she was boxed out by donald trump in part because she refused to fully embrace the big lie. the man replacing her is a passionate election denier. while trumps daughter-in-law was officially named rnc cochair. her qualifications for this role appeared to be this. >> god does not call the qualified. he qualifies the called. lord trump is the embodiment of this truth. >> now that the trump takeover is complete the rnc intends to allocate resources towards election to nihilism. -- election denial. >> we will make sure that every penny raised goes toward -- we have to have election integrity

like we've never seen before. >> we have also hired in place election integrity directors in battleground states who are recruiting and training tens of thousands of volunteers to serve as judges, workers and observers who will act as real- time monitors whenever votes are being cast and counted. and we will do more. >> joining me now is the chair of the democratic national committee. chairman, it's great to see you. i'm sure you have a lot of thoughts about the rnc at this moment but i do want to start with the idea that to their winning strategy, as announced today, is by hiring a core of election integrity poll watchers. what does that tell you about how republicans think they can win the 2024 election? >> maybe they should use those poll watchers to watch the bank account. what laura said earlier was they are going to use all of the money to help donald trump on his lawsuits. it really is shameful that

right now the heads of the rnc is an election denier and a grafting in law. that's exactly what they have right now. they can use their resources all they want on those issues. they can use that credit line that they just got got -- because they are broke right now. the bottom line is this, joe biden's speech was so good last night that it set records in terms of our fundraising at the dnc and in the campaign. as they say, he ate last night and left no crumbs. it was a master class in terms of strength, focus, and in terms of moving this country forward and protecting our freedoms. we are really ready at the dnc to make sure that we help make the contrast between the hope that joe biden brings and the chaos that we see coming from the republican side. think about this. we are months away from this major presidential election and

they just got rid of their chair to bring two unqualified people to lead their party. so kudos to them. i'm the biggest cheerleader for laura trump. go, girl, go. do your thing. spent all of that money on those lawsuits. because the dnc, we are going to be working on supporting the largest voter protection program we have had. making sure that our state parties are well funded and making sure we have boots on the ground so we can do the voter registration, the voter mobilization and to protect the voters once they cast their ballot pick >> i want to talk about the legal bills in a second. i am sort of shocked by the fact that they are effectively announcing that the strategy here is investing in grassroots efforts or whatever it might be. rather, poll watchers. in previous years it has in some ways been a placeholder

for voter intimidation. as the chair of the dnc does that worry you at all that the rnc is investing so heavily in individuals that may actually try to dissuade people from exercising their right to vote? >> for years now, alex, we know the dirty tricks that the republican party plays. the last election they didn't have a platform. they were running on policy. the only thing that they can run on is fear. it is fear and intimidation. making people scared about voting. once again to the polls they try to scare them there. that's why we built the biggest voter protection program that we've ever had at the dnc. and we didn't start this year. this something we have been doing for the past few years. and we will continue to build a. at the same time, we are still organizing and educating our voters. we are still making sure they have everything that they possibly need when they get to those polls. we are going to buckle up. i know they will spend their money on lawsuits to save

donald trump. we are also saving our resources because if we have to take them to court to make sure that every american can cast their ballot, and to do so unencumbered, that we will do just that. but we are ready for them because we understand that this election is so important. this is about protecting the freedom of all americans. democrats, republicans, independents and everything in between. >> you mentioned the legal bills. yvonne hilliard is reporting that chris, who is set to take over chief operating duties, and is also a big player in the trump campaign. he says the rnc will not use party funds to cover trump -related legal expenses. and then when asked to clarify he responded -- i can't say that word on this family program. they seem pretty sure that they are not going to be using rnc

funds to cover donald trump's legal bills. setting that aside, what is astounding to me is that rnc members are on the record saying, yeah, we would like to use the rnc coffers to pay for donald trump's lawyers. what does that tell you about the health of the republican party? that it is so invested in one wealthy man's fortunes. >> not only rnc members. laura trump said that she was intending to do just that. and that was fine because the voters would be okay with that. again, it is chaos. you look at republicans at the rnc. it's chaos. you look at the republicans in the house of representatives. it is chaos. the republican party is about chaos. they are not about progress. joe biden gets up every single day thinking about how he can improve the quality of life of all of america's people.

donald trump and his republican party, either in house or at the rnc, it's all about payback and retribution and revenge. that's not moving the ball forward. is not improving the quality of life of the people in this country. that is the contrast that we have in this election. bottom line, that is why democrats and joe biden will prevail in november. >> all i've got to say if i was a down ballot republican and heard that the party organization was going to use its money to fund poll watchers or pay for donald trump's legal bills i might be thinking about joining the dnc. the chair of the dnc, jimmy harrison. >> bring it on. come on in. >> the tent is open. thanks for your time tonight. great to see you. >> thank you, alex. still to come tonight, a strongman meets fan boy as right-wing darling victor meets his number one, donald trump. overseeing the federal prosecution of donald trump and his mishandling of classified

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as is customary, once former president trump officially becomes the republican party presidential nominee this summer he will receive briefings from intelligence agencies.

this practice was started back in the 1950s by president harry truman to ensure a smooth transition to power. technically it is business as usual here. but this is the first time that a candidate will receive those briefings while under indictment from mishandling classified documents. and that underscores the importance of getting some resolution in the classified documents case itself. now we still do not know when the trial will actually happen. it has been one week since judge eileen cannon heard -- scheduling the trial. special counsel jack smith wants the trial to start in july. trump's attorneys say the earliest the trial should start his august. although they would prefer never. judge cannon's ultimate decision here has the potential to create chaos on trumps legal calendar. the later she schedules her trial the more likely she is to block any january 6th intellection -- election trial

-- and now we have learned that next thursday the judge will hear arguments by team trump to dismiss the documents case altogether. david joins me now. he is a former federal prosecutor and columnist at limburg law. and host of the original jurisdiction podcast. welcome to the program. how do you read the tea leaves on the fact that judge cannon is scheduling a hearing on a motion to dismiss before she has even set a trial date? is that not a great sign for people who are hoping to see this trial come to fruition? >> she has a lot of work to get through because the trump team has basically filed a kitchen sink of motions to dismiss. so she is handling them. she will tackle two of them in the coming week. but then there are a whole bunch after that. >> is it a window into her psyche without the scheduled trial date remains so nebulous? or should we think, this is a

matter of housekeeping and she will take to these pretrial motions before she decides that. >> i think she will probably set a trial date in between. again, there are a whole bunch of these motions. there are a lot of moving parts here. i think we will get a trial date soon. we may also have a better sense of the trial date once she rules on some of these motions, which would affect the trial day. i don't think these motions are going to get granted. although you can't be sure. >> let's talk about that. she is accepting amicus briefs, which is friend of the court brief. sort of supporter for trump's case as he seeks a motion to dismiss. i always thought they were like your book pictures. the more you had the better it was because it can say, i've got a lot of people on my side. she says that she thinks the amicus briefs may be of considerable help to her. it is not going out on a limb

to say this is a judge who does not have a lot of experience in a case like this. i am concerned, as i think other people might be, that she is relying on pro trump amicus briefs in a motion to dismiss. >> there are things to worry about here. i don't know she would be super worried about that. that link which comes from the rules of the supreme court regarding amicus briefs. there's not a similar role for district courts or trial courts where judge cannon is. it's kind of like a copy paste thing she's basically saying, okay, let him in. it's fine. she may be quite susceptible to the argument in those briefs, which is that jack smith is not lawfully appointed. i don't want to read too much into her agreeing to have them filed. >> you stand -- set on the state podcast that she is on thin ice. there is reason for her to be taken off the case entirely. where does she stand now?

>> i don't think jack smith wants to remove her. i think you would rather not do that because it is an extreme measure. she did get adverse rulings including from trump appointees twice. that was in the preindictment phase of this case when it was a civil case brought by trump. a totally bizarre kind of situation. she would in figure of him -- favor of him in a really wacky way. it's sort of like a three strikes and you're out kind of situation. again, i don't think jack smith wants to do that. they would have to reassign. they would have to find another judge. i think he is keeping his fingers crossed. i think we are also aware of the possibility that judge cannon could go rogue again. >> then there is the whole question of what she can do to the rest of the calendar. let's start this conversation with an opinion you hold that i think is a hard one for people who seek accountability for donald trump to hear.

talk to me about your view are the chances that the federal election interference case goes to trial before november. >> i think that is under 5%, really low. we have this supreme court immunity that is coming up the situation. that's probably not going to be decided by the supreme court until june. that we do have weeks or months of trial prep as the judge presides over the d.c. case has stated. plus, this mar-a-lago documents case could go to trial in july or august, in which case it would bump the january d.c. case. >> is there any way the judge could schedule the mar-a-lago case for the late summer, block the d.c. election interference case and then delay the mar-a- lago case after that? i'm looking for the worst-case possibility. but is that possible? >> yes. trial judges have a lot of discretion, a lot of leeway in setting these trial dates. something took longer than expected. the ruling on the motion.

there are classified documents in this case creating a lot of complexities. what you outline, alex, could definitely happen. we are going to come back to you many times over. perhaps your opinion will change as we get more information. i'm a sucker for a visit. -- optimism. stomach coming up, he is the boss. he's a great leader. that will be donald trump's words of praise today for the autocratic leader, prime minister victor or bond. we will dive deep into s no nationalism. what is behind the right-wing obsession? that is next. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya helps you choose the right amounts without over or under investing across all your benefits and savings options. so you can feel confident in your financial choices.

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for revolutionary support without underwires, and sizes up to a g-cup, find your new favorite bra today at knix.com what does victor or bond believe? his views would have seemed moderate and conventional. he thinks families are more important than banks. he thinks countries need borders. for saying these things out loud he has been vilified. left-wing ngos have denounced him as a fascist and destroyer of democracy. so who is freer? in which country are you more likely to lose your job for disagreeing with the ruling classes orthodoxy? the answer is pretty obvious. if you're an american it's painful to admit it, as we have discovered. with that, here is viktor orban. >> that was tucker carlson reporting from budapest in

2021. he made the trip to interview the country's prime minister, viktor orban, who has governed hungary since the year 2010. during his decades in office viktor orban has made hungary a model of a liberal democracy. he has cracked down on immigration, closed the country's borders to asylum- seekers, outlawed any display or discussion of lgbtq content to minors in school, the media and books. he has curbed the freedom of the press and the independence of the judiciary. he has been to the country's political system to his will indefinitely. and now prime minister viktor orban has become an icon among american conservatives. in 2022 the political action conference, which you might know better as he packed, hosted its first annual conference in budapest. with the big headliner. viktor orban . in his speech the prime minister recommended that america air tucker carlson's fox news show 24/7,

which is one idea. tucker carlson also spoke at the conference. in 2023 c pack held a seven -- second conference. most had thought he had lost his enthusiasm for -- democracy. >> ratings -- greetings to see pack. i wish i was there in budapest. if i ever get fired, have some time and can leave i will be there with you. in the meantime, godspeed. we're thinking of you and cheering you on. >> i should know, while that message aired in 2023, just a week and a half after tucker carlson was fired from fox news it was apparently prerecorded. true to his word, once he was actually fired tucker carlson traveled to hungary later that summer to interview his friend, viktor orban. so it seems that hungary is a very popular travel destination for the right-wing crowd. they cannot get enough of the

place. and the admiration appears mutual. in 2022 viktor orban not only got to join the main stage on see pack, he was the opening act. >> ladies angela, this is how we fight. a speech by the prime minister of hungary, viktor orban. ♪♪ >> if that sounded more like the music from a ufc cage match then a conservative political action conference you can be forgiven. but in that speech viktor orban did promise a sort of battle plan. a lesson for american conservatives on how to import hungarian autocracy. >> i am an old-fashioned freedom fighter. progressive liberals didn't

want me to be here because they knew what i would tell you. because i am here to tell you that we should unite our forces because we hungarians know, because we hungarians know how to defeat the enemies of freedom on the political battlefield. i am here to tell you that our values, the nation, christian roots and family can be successful in the political battlefield. perhaps our story can help you keep america great. >> today he was back in the united states. despite the fact he is a sitting world leader he did not go to washington, d.c. or meet with anyone from the white house. instead, viktor orban went to mar-a-lago. and that pretty much tells you

everything you need to know about who viktor orban is betting on here. or at least whose vision most closely aligns with his. if there is any doubt about whether donald trump the same way he cleared that right up tonight. >> there's nobody that's better, smarter or -- than viktor orban. as you know, the prime minister of hungary. he does a great job. he's a noncontroversial figure. he said, this is the way it's going to be and that's the end of it. he's the boss. >> he's the boss. i will talk to jacob, author of america last. the century long romance with foreign dictators about trump's republican party and its embrace of autocracy. to duckduckgo on all your devie

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biden with a visit to mar-a- lago for a confab with one of his biggest fans, donald trump. that comes one day after orban met with trump whisperer steve bannon and participated in a discussion with the president of the heritage foundation, a conservative think tank. those moments were apparently so memorable that prime minister orban made a sizzle reel of them for his instagram followers. now if there was any misunderstanding about the point of orban's visit, check out the title of this panel yesterday -- the future of relations between the u.s. and hungary. from the looks of it, the prime minister is very much hedging his bets on a future that involves donald trump. joining me now is jacob halperin, editor of the national interest and author of the new book, america last, the right's century long romance with foreign dictators. thank you so much for being here. this book is coming at such an important time. i'd love it if you could talk a little bit about the sort of relationship that i think national security hawks have

been examining in recent days between vladimir putin, victor orban and donald trump and the degree to which, as the guardian reports, there are legitimate fears that orban could use his access to the kremlin to effectively promote russian propaganda, especially regarding ukraine, to donald trump. >> donald trump has not been monogamous in his love for foreign dictators. he has his romance with vladimir putin. now he has a man crush on hungarian prime minister victor orban, and for orban, trump is a deliverance because it allows him to use his small landlocked country in hungary and play the role of intermediary between putin and trump. the question today, the most important question hanging over this meeting with trump at mar- a-lago is what did orban communicate to him about the future of ukraine and putin's intentions, because trump has

announced that he can solve the you can crisis in 24 hours, which essentially means handing it over on a silver platter to vladimir putin. it will be very interesting to learn exactly what orban told trump today. >> we will probably soon find out because when donald trump says something, the republican party usually falls in line. beyond just ukraine, though, it feels like orban's style, if you will, of liberal democracy is more easily mapped onto the politics of the republican party compared to putin. can you just talk a little bit about the way orban governs his country and why republicans have so thoroughly embraced it? >> definitely. i was at cpac last year, though i was banned from attending, and speakers were full of words about hungary. what do they admire? they admire that there is no independent media in hungary anymore. it has been sold off to orban's cronies. the judicial system has been

eviscerated. they have elections in hungary but they are a sham. all of these things serve as a blueprint for trump's own designs in the united states. he has said that orban and i are almost like twins and i don't think anyone should have any illusions. if trump were to come to power, he would try to implement what orban has done in hungary, which means not shooting people, not killing people, throwing them out of windows as putin does, but a much more subtle form of eviscerating american democracy, and above all, the rule of law. >> i do wonder what you think about. it's not just sort of the maga crowd. there are kind of republican institutions like the heritage foundation, which is always been archconservative, but used to be a place where neocons went. they are now hosting victor orban and there seems to be a sort of meeting of the minds happening there.

what are the implications more broadly for a part of the republican party that has been less obviously maga fied? >> it's the question the heritage foundation made a conscious decision to drop onto the maga bandwagon and it did start as an insurgent movement inside the conservative movement and inside the republican party. in a sense, actually, it's returning to its roots but i tried to show in the book that for the past 100 years there has been this tradition in the republican party of dictator worship. so it's not totally a surprise that trump and the heritage foundation would embrace this. in fact, it's the culmination of an older republican tradition. >> yes, i'll wyrick ambien sort of grassroots new right movement which was born in the late 70s and early 80s, they are back, if you will. it's a righteous sort of battlefields older mentality of taking no prisoners and seizing the day, and i just wonder as we talk about these parallels between what happened before and what is happening now, you

spoke to "the washington post" about the connection between fascists and the isolationists in and around world war ii, and some of the positions that republicans are taking today vis-@-vis ukraine. i wonder if you could talk a little more about that. >> short. we're hearing the exact same language. in the late 1930s we were told that great written was doomed to defeat and that we should take the side of nazi germany. today we are told ukraine is doomed to defeat and we might as well cut a deal with vladimir putin. nothing could be further from the truth. if we aid ukraine it will win this war, but you have these same defeatist appeasement voices that we heard then. we have them now. they were wrong then, there wrong today. >> the echoes should be chilling.

jacob heilbrun, the author of