whatever it is. maybe outside groups helping them and that's why the dnc is being really smart in a biden campaign by going after them treating them as what they are. they are opponents. no different than donald trump. hiring someone like liz smith who i don't know but know of her and through friends is exact right choice to go after him hard as possible. a third category of voter who goes after the third party. who just wants to say, send a message. they don't, i don't like trump. i don't like biden. i don't like the system. i'm going to vote for jill stein, and i keep saying jill stein, because i think he's shully the bigger problem of the three because her party is on all 50 ballots and she will just attract people. these people, i can't tell you who's going to win, but i can tell you who's not going to win. rfk jr. not win. cornel west and neither is jill stein. wasting your vote causing problems. don't complain about donald

trump in the four years. >> thanks for taking that up to the end of the show. appreciate it. >> thank you. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house," thankfully, starts right now. hi, there, everyone. 4:00 in new york. kicking, claim p xleeming, crying, whining, donald trump and his legal team back dwhoog they do today. seeking to delay, delay, delay, delay justice. today's effort at that in the federal criminal case brought by special counsel jack smith for illegally hoarding classified documents at his private club in mar-a-lago. the disgraced president watching on with no obligation to do so set to convince district judge cannon to dismiss some or all charges against trump. did so through various after neuers. first a motion wiping away the

first 32 counts on the theory the main statute used against trump is "unconstitutionally vague." the second even more audacious, a motion dismissing the indictment entirely on the grounds of the president's records act completely bars prosecution. they say somehow with straight faces that trump, snap of a finger, had power to transform presidential records, state secrets, into personal records. which would exclude them from the acts requirements. here is the disgraced ex-president in his very own words last night. >> i took them out, okay? unfortunately moving out of the white house. high the right to do it. my -- my lawyers opinion, everything else. hillary clinton hammered her phones. used all sorts of acid testing and everything else they call it -- bleach bit, but it's essentially acid that will

destroy everything, you know, within ten miles. >> acid -- clothes, underwear, state secrets. everybody does it. that argument, though, much like the idea that acid destroys everything in ten miles might normally be literally laughed out of the normal court. right? but remember, this aileen cannon repeatedly shown and eagerness to allow the ex-president's team all sorts of latitudes entertaining the various motion. here we are delay after delay after delay after delay, one afternoon closer to election day, 2024, one afternoon closer to another potential legal off ramp for a man accused of serious crimes and in this instance ones with very serious national security issues. joining us, msnbc legal analyst

and fbi counterintelligence agency back with me at the table once again. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin pleasure watching you juggle this story and breaking news for us, crashing that. get to that in a second. start with what is a pattern. another seemingly successful audacious and outrageousest on donald trump's part? >> facilitated by jump cannon's case. right? it's not required to have all arguments. judges across the country dispose of these things without oral argument all the time. judge aileen cannon other hand took almost an entire court day to talk about two motions many of us would tell you is borderline frivolous if not frivolous. the fact she's even holding this hearing is a facilitation of delay, stall ignore tactics seen from trump all along in this case and his other ones.

>> evan corcoran is one of the key witnesses here that was trump's only lawyer. what is jack smith doing? not trying to move this out of a -- i mean, this judge has been overruled and overturned by an extremely conservative circuit. why are we still here? >> because the justice department, nicolle, doesn't like to ever file such motions. they don't want to be seen as playing favorites with particular judges. they just take the random assignment and it's almost unheard of for them to do something else. this case might actually test it given judge cannon's decisions last year and what she seems to be doing now. i mean, just the idea that, just to pick up on something lisa said. the idea we're having a full-day hearing on about absurd motion like this? the only thing donald trump's arts today merit of an eye roll and a swift denial. certainly not a day of hearing. look, i think i'm a pretty good lawyer. there's no way i could win this

junk trump was saying today. >> i mean, aileen cannon not prosided over many trials let alow national security trials dealing with classified documents. at some point, pete struck, isn't about aileen cannon but the rest of us. why are we still here? >> i think both lisa and you and neil put a fine point on it. the fact of the matter is if this case had been brought in districts where classified information is routinely dealt with, district of columbia eastern district of virginia, never had a hearing. in the stretch of my career, in many dozens of districts and never a successful challenge to constitutionality. these are in fact borderline if not complete frivolous arguments. i think regardless whatever judge cannon's personal motives

are absolutely one broad inexperience and two specific inexperience with classified information is leading to these delays. what i'm reminded of as well, as an fbi agent go out do a lot of interviews. at some point sit down and write those up and generating running around talking to people generating a huge administraive back lock. doing the same thing in her courtroom. we've had a lot of motions. we have several more coming up and they're, as we wait for rules because she's decided to have the hearings, backlog, putting pen to paper is growing and growing and growing and absolutely no way in my mind we see trial in mar-a-lago prior to the election. >> what's interesting. there's a different timeline. right? witnesses, one of the witnesses did an extraordinary interview with kaitlyn collins. show you some of what brian butler employer nubble five had to say about the criminal

conspiracy to high classified state secrets and then obstructing the investigation to get those documents back. >> i remember him saying by the way walt's coming tomorrow. cool. great. like, okay. it wasn't until the following day when we're out walking. hey, by the way, it's a secret. don't tell anybody walt's coming, and -- well, why? well, he needs me to find something out before he gets here. oh. what's that? he needs me to, you know, how long the camera footage is saved at mar-a-lago. i'm like, well, that's odd. why do you need the camera footage? why do you need to know how long it's saved? response, i think they're looking for somebody that was there. >> extraordinary pete struck and also details an amazing scene. the way he tells it, it's almost out of a screenplay where he and walt are both taking things to the jet to go to bedminster in

new jersey. brian is taking luggage. i'm sure a lot of hair products in them, but walt's taking classified state secrets. why isn't there a new jersey prosecution? >> nicolle a good question, because we need to find out whether or not there wa materials moved to new jersey and i think it's clear now that investigators and prosecutors likely have several good indicators that material was taken to new jersey, but, remember, to get to that point you need, there was a search warrant served at mar-a-lago. and to get that warrant had to be an affidavit demonstrating to a judge there was probable cause not only there was contraband or fruits, elements of a crime at the location, but it was at the location at the time of the application for the search warrant. so the question becomes, one, what sort of information and solid information did prosecutors have that material, classified material, had been moved to bedminster and two did they get that information in a fresh enough sort of time frame

to be able to go to a judge and say, look, your honor, not only do we believe the classified material was moved to bedminster but it was yesterday or last week. you start having a span of months, several months, that becomes a harder argument to make for a magistrate and that's my suspicion why they didn't pursue a search warrant and couldn't pursue a search warrant at bedminster. >> there's some reporting that, to me, is almost sort of mccobb and funny. trump is attending the trial today part of a broader political making it seem like he's in prison. not for long. almost off the hook here. doesn't seem there's a very good chance they'll be a trial before election day in any of these instances. there's a brand new delay in the bagg case and you've actually reported this anecdotally, tried by letitia james made sort of a campaign memo as a political

strategy? >> absolutely. where the computer of the absurd is going on. political and legal converging into one. even though he can't use a federal courthouse, nichole, same way he used the courthouse downtown when james held the trial do everything but holding a press conference on the steps. one small bit of good news today. even aileen cannon has limits as to the absurdity of trump arguments. a favorite argument president's act ex-ex-call ex-call pa tats him. this is where you're argument, mr. blanch, seems to falter, because not only is it absurd on its face the analogy drawing to for example what we all

shorthand the clinton socks case is not even remotely comparable. bill clinton kept audiotapes in a sock draw with -- audiotapes of his conversations with taylor branch the historian and the pra says that diaries, judge jackson said, these were equivalent to are expressly excluded as presidential. we are far afield from that. diaries and talking about nuclear secrets are far different. >> trump knows it. the tape released waving around the military strategy for iran, hey, hey, can we declassify this? it's so ridiculous even donald trump knows it's not true. >> that's exactly right. i think it's helpful i think, nichole, about the two buckets of charges donald trump faces from mar-a-lago. one is that mishandling of classified information, and leaving it on the floor as he just admitted on tv yesterday as

you said. the other has to do with the obstruction elements. it's there where, like that videotape of employee number five is so damning. this does not sound like the staff of a former president. this sounds like a bunch of mob guys basically trying to figure out when the camera records. how long it records for. whether it can be erased. that is not innocent behavior any day of any week. notably jump cannon delays the trial because of questions about the first bucket about what's classified properly and what's not. but the obstruction charges here are rock-solid and they sure darn well deserve to be heard before the election. the american people should know what happened at mar-a-lago. >> will they? >> at this point i'm very concerned that they won't. i still think it's possible. i agree with peter. it's unlikely but wouldn't so as far either to say it's impossible.

i think, you know, the american public deserve to hear this and their voice should be heard on this as well. this is our court. we pay for it whip our taxpayer dollars it's our investigation. we deserve to have this investigation and tried and donald trump will have the prezumps of innocence and all benefits of criminal justice system available to him but we should get an answer. >> pete, where i started today. ed case is so open and shut. bill barr can't stop saying how screwed donald trump is it. open and shut when witnesses describe the crimes in interviews with journalists from cnn sounds like it's out of a kind of tv shows they don't even make anymore because their way too obvious who the bad guys are, who the good guys are. so open and shut it feels insulting to the public that someone like aileen cannon can stop a trial from happening. how does -- explain what happens inside the -- how did we get to this point where something that bill barr and others, mary

mccord everyone who p ever touched classified materials part of investigating mishandling says open and shut. open and shut case. so easy and nobody thinks the tried will be happening? >> i think nicolle, one, absolutely agree with you. it is open and shut. it is by far and away over the course of over a 20-year career one of the most egregious and straightforward mishandling of classified information in obstruction cases i've ever seen. having said that, spent that same amount of time dealing with the federal court system with, our system of justice it is designed to protect the accused and if you have somebody who's talented and donald trump has spent his entire career wielding the judicial system as hi weapon and his shield. if you have somebody talented and wants to delay our system of justice is unfortunately vulnerable to being abused by somebody like that. so it is frustrating.

i share that frustration. end of the day all this does is reinforce, much like everybody watching special counsel mueller. if you want moral justice from the department of justice, don't do that. moral justice is going to come from getting out and voting. some decision will come, but that's not, you've got to separate that wanting some sort of moral resolution from getting a resolution in the courtroom. >> it is such an important i think think to underscore. maybe start there. moral justice equals voting, but it's certainly recasts and i think makes a lot of people rethink all the intention paid to probes like, you just mentioned the mueller probe and jack smith's investigations. looks like it will fall to voters again to sift through things that are public through kaitlyn collins interviews great reporting from our great journalists and serve as their own jurors. a great point. wrote it down. moral justice equals voting.

speaking of delays, more news on that front. breaking as we sat down, lisa working phones. have the latest and greatest from her on that trump criminal trial that was, is, i don't know, set to begin here in new york in less than two weeks may now be delayed as well. learning about the reason ties back to the doj. unprecedented visit in unprecedented political times. vice president kamala harris at a clinic today that provides abortion health care services, touring front lines against the assault on reproductive rights. later in the broadcast, big players in this year's presidential election. the never trump republicans who fear what another trump term could bring. rnc purge, why it could be a warning. all of those stories and more when dm "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley,

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the countdown clock had begun. supposed to be just under two weeks before the first-ever criminal trial of an ex-president. prosecutors at the manhattan district attorney's office now say they are open to a delay in order to let donald trump's attorneys review a batch of records they just received yesterday. the manhattan d.a. asked the judge overseeing the case the delay not exceed 30 days. back with neil, pete and lisa. lisa, explain. >> a difficult situation to explain but you're right. trial supposed to begin march 25th with jury selection and appears that some time ago but likely within the last several days donald trump's folks filed a motion before mershand asked

for a dismissal. now produced 104,000 pages of documents related to michael cohen's conviction on campaign finance charges. nicolle you know the underlying facts of that conviction are at the heart of what this case is about. it's about the conspiracy between michael cohen, donald trump, executives at american media and allen weisselberg among others to pay off stormy daniels in the wake of the disclosure of the "access hollywood" tape that almost completely derail and destroyed donald trump's candidacy in 2016. seems the d.a.'s office asked for a very wide swath of these materials last year. what they got they turned over to donald trump, they say, last june in these papers. however, without ever complaining about it trump then issued a subpoena of his own this last january and only in the last several days has he received these 104,000 pages

that go to the core of their defense. that michael cohen is not to be believed, that he is a liar and that the facts as investigated by sdny will show they purposely did not testify donald trump not because he was sitting president because they couldn't support conviction on the same federal charges trump argued should preempt the case. >> trump asks sdny for these documents when? >> january 18th. after he asks sdny appears since march 4th he first got an initial tranche of 73,000 pages and then just yesterday afternoon got another 31,000 pages along with a notification more would be coming next week. if i am alvin bragg right now who is by the way an alum of the southern district of new york as well as a former employee of the new york attorney general office i am livid with my former office. >> why didn't alvin bragg have

it and why wasn't this part of the case from the beginning? i think alvin bragg's folks are trying to understand. we made a detailed requester you at outset of our prosecution. >> bragg's office. >> bragg's office. asked you sdny for all panoply of different kinds of materials relate to the cohen prosecution. we asked for grand jury minutes and tapes, for witness lists other documents that identify names and identity of grand jury witnesses wanted the grand jury subpoenas and documents returned and summaries of witness interviews occurring outside the grand jury and other things. they say got a subset what was requested but everything they got promptly turned over to donald trump. only to hear nothing from trump complaining about that until trump issues his own subpoena to sdny less than two months before trial and lo and behold, here we are somewhat burieds under new materials from sdny coming upf

out from under the wood wok. no explanation why sdn y is suddenly willing to produce to donald trump that which they were not able or willing to produce to another prosecutorial office last year. so if i am alvin bragg right now i got a lot of questions. >> donald trump, making the deep state great again on my new red hat. neil what's going on at merrick garland's sdny? >> a rush to blame the southern district and merrick garland. some has baggage from before. we need to wait and see what the facts are, because as i read the manhattan district attorney's filing today, he's pretty clear that the blame lies with donald trump and not with anyone else. his argument in the papers is, look, we subpoenaed all of this material that lisa mentioned back and turned it over to donald trump on june 8, 2023. a long time ago.

trump will access to all of that material, didn't say a peep about wanting any new material until two months before a trial in january of '24. so you know, maybe that story has holes. maybe it's spin. i don't know, but before rushing to condemn the federal justice department i think we should wait and see. certainly it's not normal behavior, which would be par for the course with this particular defendant, to try and request materials just two months before a trial is set to happen. >> nichole respond quickly. my response a both/and. absolutely livid with sdny turning over to trump stuff she didn't get last year despite identical request and still maintain fault and blame lies on donald trump for his own delay. both can be true. both likely are true. i hear his point that we need to see what actually happened with sdny and by the way, folks

should ask the department of justice and southern district, what happened here? because as far as i know there hasn't been any correspondence from sdny produced in public records to date. hopefully we'll see a statement or correspondence explaining a divergence between initial response to alvin bragg and what they gave to donald trump. >> and i guess i want to respond to neil's chiding, if you will. skepticism comes from people like jeff burman outing bill barnes doj making a bund dentally clear no matter what. fact remains, i'm not a lawyer, everybody in the fbi, folks -- the polygraph only time i spuk stuck my toe in those parties. cohen didn't benefit with sex with the porn star staying secret until voting in the

election and michael cohen went to jail. people, and they have a right, to ask what's going on here? >> nichole, absolutely do. first off i agree with lisa. reading of the documents today making it clear we asked for this over a year ago and declined the material just turned over recently and agree with neil. we need to wait to hear. and between federal prosecutors and state prosecutors but some cases that are far more equal than others. a prosecution against the former president of the united nations one of those highlighted and points to, nichole, your point. visibility of the american public into the workings of our judicial system, granted can't give up things that are private and not charged maintain innocence of people, but there are past events largely caused

by donald trump and bill barr and his administration that caused people to wonder about the workings of the department of justice and the justice system broadly. so i expect some, i hope, for some transparency what happened here. absolutely it will result in a delay to beginning of the new york trial, but again what that information is and the fact that this would be of use or necessary to the new york district attorney i don't understand why the southern district of new york didn't turn that over sooner. >> we lose momentarily neil but both responded to you. give you the last word. >> i agree with everything said. right now facts look at lisa says like a yes/and situation. it may turn out there are other facts or an explanation we just don't know of yet. that's the only thing i'll urging a little patience. this filing was just done an hour ago by the manhattan district attorney. let's just wait and see the

impacts going forward. absolutely trite say we, the american public, deserve an explanation what's going on here. this isn't a prosecution for stealing doughnuts. this is as serious as it gets. >> and with that stay on all of you. thank you so much for starting us off today on these big stories. for more legal news and analysis sign up for the "deadline" legal weekly newsletter. biggest headlines and takeaways from the week. sign up with the qr code on your screen, in your inbox tomorrow. and vice president kamala harris sending a powerful and clear message today on the white house position for resporing access to abortion health care as a federal right. more on that message with her important visit in minnesota today. that's next. today. that's next. some people say, "why should i take prevagen? i don't have a problem with my memory." memory loss is, is not something that occurs overnight.

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salonpas, it's good medicine. in states around our country extremeists have proposed and passed laws that have denied women access to reproductive health care, and the stories abound. i have heard stories of, and met with women who were being denied emergency care, because the health care providers there at an emergency room were afraid because of the laws in their state that they could be criminalized, sent positive prison, for providing health

care. we have to be a nation that trusts women. >> that was vice president kamala harris making some history this afternoon, in a fert-first-time first planned parenthood clinic. the first to visit a facility that provides abortion health care. the issue and message of women's reproductive health access has been and is to the biden/harris re-election campaign, voters across the political ideological spectrum signaled outrage about the attacks on reproductive health care in every single election had since roe was overturned by the united states state supreme court. it comes in stark contrast to republican-elected officials continued inability to say anything logical that speaks to voters, their own voters, concerns. our friends pointing this out. "house gop leaders invited

leading anti-abortion activists to join the republican conference for its annual retreat including leaders from susan b. komen attacked abortion access and ivf and some of the most common forms of birth control." joining our conversation, ceo of planned parenthood ruth richardson attended today's visit with the vice president with me at the table msnbc analyst editorial board member mara gay. tell me, ruth what this was like. sometimes at something happening first time and very much it hangs over a visit. sometimes seems like the most normal thing of all. tell me what today was like. >> today was a very historic day as you said. first time a sitting vice president visited a planned parenthood clinic and i just think that it is amazing amplification to really bring and shine a light on the stories of what's been happening since

the overturn of roe v. wade. >> ruth what is the -- it's amazing to me that abortion is now more popular in the general public than at any point since the question has been asked by pollsters and also amazing abortion is shooting up to a one, two, three issue for a lot of voters. highest and most popular its been. what is the next step to making sure this issue is front in line for voters in november? >> an important piece of this is really connecting the dots to people to understand what happens when there are restrictive abortion bans. first, we know that abortion bans do not ban abortions for everyone. just with individuals who have barriers in terms of thinking about socioeconomics or the means to travel, and i think it's also really important that people understand the harm we have seen since the decision as relates to higher maternal more

taltdy and higher infant mortality as well. really connecting the dots for people to understand that when you're restricting access to health care it harms entire communities. >> let me read some of what the vice president said there today. she said, the work that happens here is about preventing assistance to whim did not live in the state of minnesota because sadly this state exists in a neighborhood where laws are passed to deny people reproductive health care. women have to travel here. the majority of women who receive an abortion are mothers. hoping she's got affordable child care, working on -- that she's got paid family leave to figure how she's going to get to the play that will provide the health care she needs or work that happens in a clinic lice think includes answering those questions for somebody who might be in great distress. i feel like this was not known to a lot of people. that most women who seek out abortion health care already have families? >> that's true. the thing that was both powerful and clever politically about

this visit today, you know, growing up, i'm 37. so you know, young enough to remember what this was like not that long ago. you know, we used to say, democrats used to say abortion should be safe, legal and rare. most people of course don't want to go, to be in a position to have to get an abortion, of course, but there was something about that, that kind of allowed abortions to exist as a shameful thing. even among those who were pro-choice or voted pro-choice and i think now we're realizing that abortion is health care. >> right, and to see the vice president go and travel today to this clinic to say chubbily this isn't shameful. this is part of health care for women in america, and this is important. it's necessary, and it should be a right and a human right. i think that centering that need, that health care back in to mainstream where it belongs

was a really important message to women. >> this is so important. there's almost a funnel, right, where birth control is the most noble thing we're going to protect. along with ivf. then rape and incest is always put out there as we have to -- of course they're true and vital and onlies dystopian society takes birth control and ivf off the table and make as rape victim carry her rapist's child. i agree. sort of lost the threat. every woman in 2024 in a civilized state should have final say about her body. >> yeah. the other thing about this is the context here unfortunately is in the environment of political violence, we do have to think about what this visit means. this was centering not only toll say this is a very important fundamental part of women's health care but also, again to say, you know what? it should be safe to go to these clinics. i know as a freshman at

university of michigan i was part of volunteers that used to escort women seeking services in to the clin uk because there would be protesters outside. the fear always that could become violent. there have been abortion providers, excuse me, in the united states, who have been assassinated. given the context in which this is a practice that women are being shamed for, providers shamed for, we have abortion provider, ob/gyn's moved out of states like idaho fearing that they won't be able to provide services of many kinds for their patients, but also in some cases fearing for they are lives. this was actually, it shouldn't be a radical act, but i think it was in a way. >> profound. ruth, tell me what happens next? is there a wish or a hope that vice president harris will make visits like this part of her sort of regular schedule over the next eight months and beyond? >> yes. absolutely. we are hoping that this issue

will continue to be amplified. we know that here we've seen 100% increase in people traveling from outside of the state, from places as far as way as louisiana, missouri, florida and texas, in order to get access to abortion care and since dobbs helped over 3,100 patients get to their appointment and i think that it's really important to continue to have the ability to be able to tell these stories, because behind these numbers are real people. >> all of these stories are real important. such an important note for us. thank you for sharing that and spending time. marra sticks around. when we come back there's a willess a way around the house speaker extremeist handlers have democrats and republicans in washington working to finally force that vote on much-needed ate to ukraine. that story's next.

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-ugh. -here, i'll take that. woo hoo! ensure max protein, 30 grams protein, 1 gram sugar, 25 vitamins and minerals. and a new fiber blend with a prebiotic. (♪♪) perhaps the greatest casualty of the gop-controlled extreme do-nothing congress has been ukraine's sfra teachic advantage over russia. for moss speaker mike johnson refused to bring forward an aid bill approved by the senate add white house for a vote. despite from the most extreme maga members and ex-president. democrats trying to do something to get the desperately needed

money through anyway. the majority has to try to appeal to some of the house republicans who claim to stand with the people of ukraine, but the discharge petition, which democrats and republicans can sign on to would allow ukraine funding vote to make it to the house floor without speaker mike johnson's approval. it appears johnson recognizes how fractured his caucus is on this issue. with him admitting this afternoon for a ukraine funding bill to pass he needs to rely on democratic votes. jason crow of colorado, marra still with us. congressman, thank you for being here. fiona hill was here yesterday obviously highly regarded russian expert and former national security council saying on this issue america's credible is all but lost already. what can be salvaged if aid can be passed through the speaker's opposition? >> never too late to do the right things. we have to continue to push forward and get this aid bill

across the floor. no doubt about it. our credibility is at stake. this is not just reputational. we are strong and secure as a country because we have allies and friends. our adversaries, russia, china, iran and others look at our alliance network with great envy, but we'll only have allies and friends if we stand by them in their hour of need too. that's really what's at stake. but this isn't charity either. this is in america's national security interests we help ukraine fight and win. >> president biden seemed to center the conversation around the contours you just outlined. this isn't, not doing this to be nice. doing it because our security at home depends on the worrell's democracies defeating our shared enemies. how far on the wrong track are we when you hear trump voters say, i like putin. just give him ukraine? >> you know, here's the thing. you're absolutely right we have

to stand with democracies we have to fight for freedom, you know, the world's democracies will either stand united or fall divided. that is true, but there are very direct, very direct interests for the american people in passing this national security down the middle. europe our single largest economic and trading partner. our economy relies on a stable an prosperous europe. all of that, all of that is threatened by russia's aggression throughout europe. we have to make sure we're bolstering other economy protecting food supplies. ukraine is the breadbasket of europe and protecting hundreds of thousands of americans who live in europe including the 100,000 serving there in uniform. >> congressman, another story this week that we wanted to ask you about. obviously, images of your conduct and instinct to protect your fellow members january 6th. something that -- if anything sort of evokes the horror of that day e all went through, but donald trump has made clear that one of his day-one issues to

pardon all of the criminally convicted and imprisoned january 6th insurrection iftds. how does that sit with you? >> listen, i try not to grow numb to president trump's sociopathy which runs deep. he is not a well person and we can pick just in the past couple days the terrible things that he said and done. from undermining ukraine saying that russia you know, is, should take our allies and do whatever they want with our allies to making fun of president biden's stutter and undermining the rights of the disability community. all of these things. he's just not a well person, and that should be abundantly clear to folks. >> congressman, never a shortage of headline to talk about. thank you very much for spending time with us today. >> thank you. >> quick break for us. the last word on the other side. the last word on the other side. never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story.

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i'll put to you the most profound thing anything has said. if you look for moral accountability, don't look to the justice department. you listen to the congressman talking about trump sa sociopath. we're almost post analysis with trump. you almost have to reassert the facts of his disgraceful term, present the plans for a second term to turn america into an

autocracy and turn it over to the voters. >> i think the voters are going to have the most important say. we need a mandate for democracy in this country. we need an opportunity for americans to get together and affirmatively say commit to continuing a democracy in this country. you know, it's complicated because on the one hand, we're in a moment where our institutions need to be strengthened. upheld, and we need to be able to have trust in them. >> right. >> on the other hand, we can't take anything for granted. so i think if you talk to folks in 2015, they never would have thought many americans, that someone like donald trump could ever get elected to the oval office. that happened. if you talk to people on january 5th, 2021, never would have imagined that we would see an attempted coup and insurrectionists returning around the capitol building, but it happened. so i think we need to expand our imaginations, as scary as that is. i think that you know, there's a

sense that things can't get worse. well we know now they can. we should look to history, our own, and elsewhere. it can happen here. and we should also demand more, i think, from our institutions. i think that there's a lot to be said for asking tough questions of why you know, prosecutions are taking the time they are. this is a good moment for those who are serving institutions to be as transparent as possible. i think there's an instinct, even when it's for the right reasons, to keep information close to the vest. exactly. this is not that time. this is a time where every public servant in america should hopefully be asking themselves you know, can i show my work a little bit? can i explain to the american people why we still deserve their trust? because it's not to be taken for granted. >> so important. so good. an even more profound moment

with you. you and pete strzok with the moments of the day. thank you. coming up for us, the contagious and courageous anti trump movement within the republican party that very well could prove decisive in this year's election. where the stakes could not be any higher. the next hour of deadline white house starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. everything he needs in perpetuity thanks to autoship from chewy. i always loved that old man. and he gets the summer house. what? save 35% off your first autoship order. at chewy.

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i said to one of my colleagues the other day, i imagine at the time if the captain of the titanic could go back six hours ahead of time and warn himself like hey, this

isn't going to work out well, he would have probably adjusted the ship. we have that chance now as republicans to say we know what's happening, we know how this is going to end. why would republicans pick the one person joe biden can beat? that is stupid. >> why would they do that? according to that world view, looks like the titanic very much sank. donald trump is officially the nominee of the republican party. the man you just heard from is an important figure. wisconsin's assembly speaker, a republican. a rare republican who stood up to trump in the aftermath of the 20 election saying he would not overturn president biden's victory in his state without any evidence of voter fraud. his clash with trump earned him fierce criticism and attacks from members of his own party. and recently, a group of republicans tried to oust them. they failed. milwaukee journal sentinel reports organizers failed to submit enough valid signatures

to trigger a recall election. this shows there are some red lines these days for some, in my view, too few, republicans. in wisconsin, we saw it in the 2022 midterms when election deniers lost just about every big race in arizona, pennsylvania, all over the place. we saw it in the failure of every single anti abortion law, measure, referendum that has been put in front of voters, including in very red states. since the supreme court overturned roe. we're seeing that some in the gop are just not that into this version of the republican party and they're not willing to blindly follow the twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president. take a listen to this republican voter in iowa. >> i've never voted for a democrat in my life. i had to vote for one last time. i voted for biden. he's in there and people like me are going to be the ones that are going to keep trump out.

>> sounds like liz cheney, right? not the biden part. but keeping trump out. and it is exactly that kind of voter, those anti trump republican voters, those who under no circumstance will vote for the party's candidate because he's crossed some sort of moral or policy line for them. who would open question in this election, they could, they might, if they amass enough numbers and do what they sound like they're going to do, they have the power to determine the outcome and completely reshape the november election. take a listen to what a guest said on fox news yesterday. >> nikki haley won 2.9 million votes in the primaries so far. if those in our news voter analysis shows between five in ten of those voters said they won't vote for trump in november. if even a fraction deliver on that promise or stay home or

split their votes, trump loses. >> he sure does. it's where we start the hour. with the founder of republican voters against trump. publisher for the bull work, sarah longwell. also, former chief of staff at the department of homeland security. and co-host of the weekend, my dear friend from another time in republican politics, michael steel is here. sarah, i want to start with you. i want to know what your vision is. we played everything you have produced of late. it's riveting. extraordinary. it's exciting because it feels like the newest thing that we have to chew on. that with the numbers. the exit polls for nikki haley. what do you have planned for the coming days and weeks and months? >> yeah, look, we launched a $50 million campaign to defeat trump. we call it republican voters against trump. we ran this campaign back in 2020. we also ran a version of it in 2022. we had republican voters against kari lake. republican voters against

herschel walker and a number of of the anti democratic candidates that were running then. the difference between what you're doing now in 2024 is that all the testimonials we've amassed are people who voted for donald trump and aren't going to do it again. what we know from our research is that you have to create a permission structure for reluctant republicans sort of soft gop voters, right leaning independents, who don't identify as democrats, who oftentimes disagree with democrats on policy, but you sort of have to give them a try. a place to belong, to say look, it's tough for me to vote for a democrat but i'm going to do it because i can't stand donald trump. i think he's bad for the country. and by bringing those voices out, by showing them these potentially persuadable margins and i think the margin is real. there's a number i'm obsessed with. it's 30%. you see it all over the place. if you ask republicans how many of you think the election was stolen, about 70% say yes, 30%

say no. if you ask republicans will you vote for donald trump if convicted of a crime? about 30% say no. and nikki haley's margins in places like south carolina and new hampshire and again in michigan, they were all around 27, 28%. look, some of those people are going to vote for donald trump. some already are voters for joe biden but some of them are the critical people that need to be persuaded this time around and they, we call them sort of double doubters or double haters. they don't really like either candidate but when push comes to shove, they often dislike donald trump more and we want to help build and cultivate a permission structure and a micro tribe for those people to be able to ultimately vote for joe biden. >> is it, sarah, like a play in three acts? i mean, would, i mean, i interviewed the gentleman in oklahoma who wrote the op-ed in his local paper about his journey. he's arrived at this point

you're talking about. where he will not vote for donald trump under any circumstances. but i wonder how you move them to take the affirmative step of going out on election day or getting an absentee ballot and voting for joe biden. what does the conversion campaign look like to turn them into biden voters? >> you know, this is something that donald trump usually does for us. donald trump, this is actually, right now, you know, i think joe biden is the president. so he is very much top of mind for people. the fact is a lot of voters have forgotten how much they dislike donald trump. but i've been doing focus groups almost every week for the past three cycles and if there's one thing i've seen as you get closer to these elections, both in 2020 and 2022, these voters when push comes to shove, these extreme candidates and when it comes to donald trump, they just say, and their most persuasive

videos are the ones where voters put their heads in their hands and say i'm going to do it. i'm going to vote for a democrat because this guy is bad for the country. >> the other thing i think is so interesting is all the losing. i think michael steel that it broke my heart when people that i'd known stayed with trump after the access hollywood tape came out because i thought that i knew something about the character of the party that i had served and that it wouldn't go for someone who bragged about grabbing women between the legs and they did. and i thought the party i worked for wouldn't stay with someone who was clearly sharing a mission, an affinity for everybody putin did and stood for, but they did. i thought i was in a party that would break with him after he saw good people on both sides of the kkk rally which a woman died. but the thing that really shocks me is that he's such a loser.

and they're still with him. >> maybe because they're losers, too. i don't know. they haven't won much. and i think that's part of the soup that they're all collectively in together. which is why they seem to coagulate the way they do. give me more sarah longmiller. she's laying down and doing the foundational work that's going to be important for the selection. talking to real live voters giving us an inclination of their thinking. the challenge we have is an essential one in my view. particularly when it comes to those republicans that we've been talking about. like you know what, my country matters more to me than any party anytime, any place, anywhere. they still hold on to that political strap, if you will, that ties them, binds them either through legacy or family

or just experience to the republican party. and they don't see themselves voting for a democrat. not that joe biden's a bad guy. and yet they may disagree. just because he's a democrat. i just don't vote for democrats. so the question is how do you crack that nut? how do you begin to peel that back in a way that gives those and sarah put the right term in play, the permission. it's okay, boo. you can vote for biden. it's all right. the world will be better tomorrow. you know, you'll get to pay your mortgage next week and the kids will go to school in the fall. i mean, the world doesn't change if you actually focus on and put in play the country. because at the end of the day, that's what it's all about. so setting up this narrative for them i think breaks along the lines of the extremist behavior of the party that they still feel an affiliation for versus

the opportunity to acknowledge the freedom of every citizen in this country. the freedom to assembly. the freedom to make choices over their health and education and their families. the freedom to be a part of the global community. weighing that argument for these voters i think becomes an essential part of the conversation going forward. which gets me back to how i started this. the work that sarah's doing, the effort that's behind that work is going to be important because it will tap into those voters in a way that levels up the messaging, which is going to be so important because they can't let go of the thing they actually need to let go of. so we've got to help them do that. >> i wonder, michael, if you think joe biden aided in that effort and i'm curious what sarah thinks his role, if any, by quoting reagan back to the

room. but putting his state of the union address in the history of america. not democratic white house, but americans standing up to the soviet union and the cold war. by putting his state of the union in this moment. by starting a state of the union address with this moment on the world stage for our country and the choice we have to make. those are very republican appealing messages. >> and this is why you're nicolle wallace. you just put your finger on the moment for me in that speech. what was profound, folks, i hope it's not lost. i know it's not lost on my friends on this panel. what was, what was so significant about that moment is you had joe biden quoting, quoting, ronald reagan. and not one republican applauded or stood up. the democrats did. because he was talking about freedom. he was quoting freedom. mr. gorbachev, tear down this

wall. help these people be free, right? and not one republican could stand up and applaud freedom. and it goes back to the essential and i think really qualitative point of the discussion is we're talking about in the face of extremism, do you choose it or freedom. do you choose to really live by the words of someone like reagan who was not just calling gorbachev, but all of us. to that idea of everyone should be free. no one should be living behind walls. we should not be building walls. we should not be creating and promoting oppression. we should not be turning our backs on the freedoms that have already been granted under our constitution and see them slowly erode or taken away. at the expense of that constitution. and so that was i think to

answer your question, yeah. i think it was a very important point and it should give some solace or at least begin to open up the conversation for those voters because he can back it up. biden can back up the words. and i think that's going to be important going forward. >> sarah, your thoughts on, i mean, i also thought that to the degree that it was biden not through the filter of what laura ingram or sean hannity say, joking back and forth with lindsey graham. graham yucking it up with him like it was john mccain up there. i wonder if those are other potential pieces to that permission structure to just in this one instance, in this one election, vote for the guy that isn't the republican. >> yeah, you know, actually the thing i've seen joe biden do is he's actively inviting people into the coalition. after nikki haley dropped out, he said, he put out a press

release and said there's a home for you here. we want you in our coalition and that stood in stark contrast the donald trump who was saying if you voted for nikki haley, you're permanently barred from the maga movement or if you like mitt romney, we're getting rid of you. we're getting rid of all the rhinos like mitt romney. he's practicing the politics of subtraction and trying to cast people out. joe biden is saying come here. like, there's room for you here. the other thing that democrats need to understand is that these voters are there. these voters are gettable and so sending out popular democrats, not just joe biden, but people like josh shapiro in pennsylvania who's very, very popular democratic governor. having surrogates who can speak to these swing voters and go both on the attack against trump, but also give people the sense of hey, look, you're voting for joe biden, of course, but you're also voting for a responsible democratic party of which i am a part that is filled with normal people unlike the lunatics you're seeing from our

friends on the right. and so i think that that's the thing i've seen from joe biden that i really like is that they are reaching out and saying come join us. >> you know, miles, this gets to this piece that gives me hope at a time, i was gone for almost four months. the news is bleaker than ever in my view. accountability has come up short. the radicalization of people who go to trump rallies is so much scarier than what they were saying in '16 where they were having a good time. now they're i'm with putin, down with ukraine. the things they're saying, the things that have gotten through to them are so alarming and extreme. but what gave me life is something sarah said earlier today and sort of furthers my theory, which is that joe biden is in control of his political destiny. sarah said this, one of the main tactics of autocrats is to exhaust people. you breakthrough by not getting exhausted. this is the time for joe biden and his campaign to roll out

1,000 surrogates. one isn't enough. 1,000 to go on offense against donald trump and say you do not want this guy. it can happen and i feel like you've been trying to roll this boulder up a hill for several years now, too. what do you think? >> well, those of us who have been rolling the boulder are just getting stronger from rolling it up a hill. >> i'll admit, my arm's a little tired. >> you're looking strong. we got a chance to flex those muscles. i would say, i would add to sarah's point by saying that the advantage that joe biden has right now, the silver lining for him is that donald trump has made one of the cardinal sins of a would be autocrat. he's created enemies. not on the other side, but within his own ranks. he's created powerful enemies that can hurt him from within. just look at this panel. we've got a former head of the republican national committee. we've got a former senior white house official, you. we've got one of the top gop

operatives and people who know trump from the inside and can attest to his instability. he's creating more and more enemies. we see the distan against nikki haley. the more of these enemies he creates, the more difficult he makes it to create a coalition that can win. so to sarah's point about 1,000 surrogates out here. that's something the biden team can do that they maybe didn't get to do enough of in 2020. in 2020, they did engage some of the folks on this panel, but thought they could win without disaffected republicans. the good news is they have absolutely a historic number of those republicans to tap into. so they should build out those ranks. they should deploy those people. not in august, september, november. they should do it today. >> i want to show all of you more of sarah's republican voters. i have so many more things to cover with all of you. you've given me hope. i have to sneak in a quick break

though. we'll continue this conversation and talk about all the calls from inside the house as miles is alluded to. how trump's complete lack of fitness to serve is described in stunning detail almost primarily by people who work for him. and later, another important conversation in our series, american autocracy. it could happen here. america is not the first country to face an autocratic threat from within. what lessons can we learn from other nations? is there a way out? two experts on democracy will be our guests today. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. after a icquk break. don't go anywhere. power e*trade's award-winning trading app makes trading easier. with its customizable options chain, easy-to-use tools and paper trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. ♪ ♪ ♪

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he was the lesser of evils. that's why i voted for two times. this time, i can't do that any longer. >> under no circumstances could i as a christian and mother, grandmother, and great grandmother see that i could vote for donald trump again. >> i do think him saying the election was stolen from him, it was not stolen from him. basically, trump lost and he is a poor loser. >> he is controlled by russia. i just think the evidence is overwhelming and everything he does is to support putin. >> january 6th, that was the final straw for me. at this point, i didn't even post on social media. i completely regretted it. >> we're back with sarah, miles, and michael. sarah, i circled for all of them, christian. poor loser. russia, january 6th and i

wondered if there's a word cloud or if it's this thing you said first. this just gut need to belong to a new tribe for whom enough is enough with trump. >> you know, honestly, i think for this crop of sort of new never trumpers, sometimes i like to say there's a never trumper born every minute. these folks are different. they have voted for trump before. >> right. >> and many of them voted for him in 2020 and so what changed? there is a real group of republicans who watched what happened on january 6th and watched trump talk about the election being stolen over and over again and said that's it. i'm out. i would say the majority of the videos that we received, the sort of first hundred testimonials really did sort of circle around that theme of i couldn't do it again after that. that was just like one of those, the straw that broke the camel's back. i think it's under appreciated, how many of the people, even if

they voted for trump twice, how many were holding their nose and doing it thinking all right, i'll vote for this guy twice and then like the normal republican party will come back. because one of the things i notice in focus groups is how often there's sort of this reagan hangover you see. especially from older voters who don't realize how much the party has changed. how much it is not going back to a party that would have somebody like nikki haley or frankly any of us as part of it. and something i hear from intense trump voters is they will articulate that. they will say we are never going back. that's why nikki haley and mike pence and some of the other folks who ran, and god bless nikki haley. i'm so glad she kept running. but i don't think they understand what's happening with republican voters. and i don't think they realize how much the voters have changed. and what the voters want has changed. so the theme that i see through the people who make these testimonials is this feeling of man, trump and the party that is

starting to be like him feels like it's not the one i joined. it's not the one i'm part of and i'm not going to vote for him again. >> miles, let me show you what some of the officials with whom you served are saying publicly now about trump. >> they wanted to deploy active duty troops on the streets of washington, d.c. and suggested we shoot americans in the street. so i mean, that's kind of more what you see. >> the damage he could do in the second term, i say that again even though the terms are disconnected, maybe irreparable. that i think is what's dangerous. >> fundamentally, a second trump term could mean the end of american democracy as we know it. >> so this was an inside thing and i used to bang on you why isn't it an outside conversation. this is what every national security official would say privately during trump's one term in officer. i'd say we're going to make it and they would all say to me we could make it four years.

we would not make it a second term. tell me what this effort looks like among your former trump administration colleagues to make abundantly clear how fundamentally unfit he was to serve the first time and would be a second time. >> there's finally a conversation about it happening to get as many of those people as possible together. i will confess to you that last summer, i was really worried it wouldn't happen. it's why i went and wrote that book blowback is to try to paint a picture of what a second term could look like. because to me and others, it was lucid and scary what that could turn out to be. we've seen quite a few folks come forward since then. there's still more that could come forward. as recently as today, i've been chatting with folks to make sure wide cohort of those officials come together to really unify those messages to warn the country. but it's not even just about donald trump. as you know well.

the man that i interacted with years ago was very visibly unwell. was observe bly unstable and he was the president of the united states then. i can only imagine what's happened to him since. we've witnessed it. we all see it as an american public, but i can't imagine how unstable he'll be behind that resolute desk again. even if donald trump wasn't going to be a problem, it is the people he's going to put in place. there's three categories that scare me. i will call them the loyalists, the asassins and the replacements. at the cabinet level, he wants to put in loyalists and his team says they don't care if the senate confirms those people are not. they're going to put them in anyway and they know the courts can't stop they will. so people who will execute his orders no matter how bad. steve bannon says at next level, they're going to recruit quote, a new generation of asassins.

then the next level they're going to put in as replacements. people who project tornado paths and try to protect the united states from terrorists. political appointees in those roles is very scary for me. it's something they didn't do in the first term. then there's the fourth category that i would call the shadow government. people he doesn't even bring into government but who he empowers. we saw this in the first term where departments like the department of veterans affairs, people said there were the three amigos in mar-a-lago that would make phone calls and tell him what to do. these are not government employees. i worry in a second term, he'll have all of these outsiders that aren't fit to take government jobs, pulling the strings. >> michael steele, you get the last word. >> well, i think ross just laid it out. if the you want an example of the replacements, i give you the rnc.

so if you want to see how this is going to translate, folks, that's a little bit of a taste of what miles is talking about. so understand that what both sarah and miles have been saying in the 30 minutes that we've been on the air, you just can't whistle by it. you can't say oh, they're disgruntled republicans. no, this is real and it is happening realtime. there's a concerted effort to do everything miles just laid out. and it is happening right now. and so you'll see little vignettes and moments where it pops up and goes into play. the rnc is the most recent version of that idea. and the shadow piece, that is throughout. the heritage, you know, project 2025. that's there. go read it. it's not hard. it's right in front of you. so i think it's time to take all of this very, very seriously. and i think it's time going back to how we began the conversation

that you know, george bush talked about a thousand points of light as president. i think president biden needs to fan out across the country a thousand points of truths in representatives of his administration and others who can go out there and push this narrative that reenforces the efforts by folks like sarah and miles who are trying to carve out that lane for that disaffected republican, disaffected independent voted, voter, disaffected center right democrat to find a place where they feel comfortable voting for joe biden so that democracy can wake up on the 6th of november and get busy about democracy work. not authoritarian bs. >> and god bless the democratic coalition. we're like shelter puppies and they have to find a place for us. sarah, miles, michael, thank you so much for having this

conversation with me. i'm so grateful. when we come back, it's something reporters hear over and over again that not only are they not mad as trump running as a strong man, it's what they want. how did we get there? we'll talk about it for people who wrote a book on how democracies fall into decline. this conversation is next. o dec. this conversation is next. did you know... 80% of women are struggling with hair damage? just like i was. dryness and frizz could be damaged hair that can't retain moisture. new pantene miracle rescue deep conditioner,

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i only want to be a dictator for one day.

>> when the good patriotic americans hear trump's disdain for our sacred principles, they will be outraged. >> this country needs a dictator. >> if you want to love trump, love him. but stop framing it as patriotism because the one thing you cannot say is that donald trump is following the tradition of the founders. he is advocating for complete and total presidential immunity. his words, not mine. that is monarchy [ bleep ]. >> so sorry had to bleep that. jon stewart at his best calling the four times indicted president's term, monarchy stuff. you just heard there, voters

saying they want a dictator. that this country needs a dictator, as long as it's trump. is something viewers of our program are all too familiar with thanks to that haunting body of reporting we brought you from our own vaughn hillyard. he heard a lot of this from trump rallies and that those voters have been conditioned to believe they need a quote, strong man. their words. what does this chilling information tell us about how far town the road we are in terms of backsliding into something that isn't democratic at all, but more of autocracy and what do we do about it? those questions are at the heart of our series. it could happen here. they are questions that my next two guests have spent their professional lives examining. their most recent book includes an idea our viewers have heard before. quote -- joining our

conversation, the co-authors of why american democracy reached the breaking point and how democracies die, daniel and steven. they're both professors at harvard. thank you so much for being here. as soon as we decided to do this, both of your names were put on our top of our list. so it's really a privilege to have you here. thank you so much. >> great to be with you. >> daniel, you take me through first where we are and is it really a slide to autocracy which feels passive or alert which when you listen to the reporting about where trump supporters, at least the ones that go see him are, it feels like they're grabbing it. how do you see it? >> it is active. it doesn't just happen on its own. people have to make this happen. people also have to defend

democracy. but where are we, you ask? back in 2016, an organization that gives democracies a score from 0 to 100, how democratic they are. the u.s. had a score of 93 which put us on par with great britain, today, it's 84 with romania and argentina. so since 2016, our democracy has gotten into trouble. when you have, that might shock your viewers, but when you are living a country in which there's violent threats against election workers, when you've had a president try to forestall a transition of power and efforts to restrict voting rights, it's at the same level as argentina and romania. >> steven, i feel like a lot of us, people in my spot, miss the trump story because he looks so

incompetent and uninformed but turning the press into quote, his quote, enemies of the people. green lighting violence. i remember at a rally during the 2016 campaign in chicago and he was praising the people that would rough people up at his rallies and hurt physically and attack and assault supporters. someone's going to get hurt. he said that's the point. and i wonder how much of it in hindsight was strategic to undermine our democracy. >> i don't know how much was strategic. we've been debating for a long time whether trump is an idiot or brilliant. but i will say this. trump by himself, whether he's brilliant or not, can't kill our democracy. he can only destroy our democracy if he's got the cooperation of mainstream politicians. if he's got the cooperation, the complicity of a political party. and the biggest difference between 2016 and today is that

there's no more resistance to speak of within the republican party. he's completely taken over the republican party. the vast bulk of the congressional leadership, governors, major party figures, the rnc will cooperate and have made it clear they will cooperate with his authoritarian shenanigans. that is what's so dangerous. he needs enablers and unfortunately, it looks like he's got them in the republican party. >> mcconnell, who went to the floor, you know, the well of the senate after voting to acquit trump and then referred him criminally. either the conduct wasn't in question. but completely kneecapping his own institution. and refusing to have any role in that accountability. kicking the can over the doj. doj waiting a full year it would appear to have any sort of proactive contact with trump in any examination of his criminal contact. all of these institutions that

didn't seem to meet the moment in terms of trump's aggression. what is you know, in this sweep of history, what is the culpability for everyone that watched? >> yeah, so as steve said, it's really critical how the mainstream parties react. in our studies of democracies of getting into trouble, what we've discovered is being committed to democracy needs three things. number one, you accept elections, win or lose. number two, you don't use violence to gain or hold on to power. those are pretty obvious but the third is critical, which is that you distance yourself if you're a politician from people who violate those first two rules. distance, condemn, ostracize, exclude from politics. what we've seen throughout history is that it's the people who can engage in the last action or don't engage in that last action, enable and tolerate and talk out of both sides of their mouth, those are the ones who have gotten into trouble.

when you had mainstream parties of the left or right who enabled authoritarians, that's when democracy gets into trouble and when mitch mcconnell said that donald trump is practically and morally responsible for the attack then refused to do anything about it, he was repeating a behavior that's gotten democracy into trouble if other places. >> i have a list of seven pages of questions for you and since you've been talking, i wrote down five more. i have to sneak in a quick break. when we come back, the ex-president appearing to confirm an alarming claim made by the hungarian prime minister that not one penny will go to ukraine if he is re-elected. we'll talk about that next. o ukraine if he is re-elected. we'll talk about that next

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>> we're back. steven, i want to ask about the company that a leader keeps and trump never made any secret of his affinity and affection for putin. his love affair with orban feels in some ways more dangerous because that's more of a parallel in terms of what trump wants to do. his love affair with kim jong-un seemed bizarre, but clearly the appetite for brutality has been born out. what is is danger of what trump is saying if it is followed up by policy promises? >> couple of huge dangers. one is democracy has to be defended across the world. and key moments when democracy is threatened as it is in europe today, western powers, particularly the united states, need to stand up and defend it. so trump's increasingly open position of abandoning ukraine

could have traumatic long-term consequences for the west. when democracy was seriously threatened in europe in the 1930s and '40s. the united states and other western powers stood up for it and fought for it. if we don't do that this time around, the outcome could be very, very dangerous. secondly, trump's admiration for dictators is very obvious and clear but it's worth saying that as bad as orban is, and orban is an autocrat, trump is much, much worse than orban in what he says he is going to do. he says he's going to pack the administration are loyalists, that he's going to turn agencies like the justice department into weapons against his rivals to investigate and prosecute his rivals. he said he's going to try to close down independent media. he says he's going to call on

the army under the insurrection act to repress protests. not even orban has said or actually done such things. this is one of the most openly authoritarian figures that i've seen in any modern democracy since world war ii. >> daniel, how do you explain the silence in so many corners of civic life? there's nobody in big business. big business should be looking at what happened in orban and if trump is even worse, they should be looking at what happened in russia. there is nobody outside of, the notion that anybody would be safe, they wouldn't be safer than we would. what explains the delusional belief it's incredibly shortsighted and reckless. you know, business, religious groups, civil society at large,

this is the kind of bulwark of our democracy. and citizens vote and that will make a difference, too, but groups need to organize and speak out. you know, in other parts of the world, in germany where i've been studying recently, with the rise of a far right party that heads of the corporations, bmw, porsche, they released joint statements with labor unions, church organizations, the crime, extremism, the values of diversity, we need our civic society to do the same. and if we don't do this, what it does is it essentially loosens the social guardrails and makes outrageous behavior acceptable and it's really essential, you had a quote at the beginning, that our institutions if they don't save us, we have to save ourselves. the lessons of history are clear. civil society is what protects a democracy and people need to start to take the threat

seriously. >> i will put both of you on the spot on live tv. can we continue to have this conversation because you have tremendous expertise and credibility in this space and we are hoping to really try and tell the story in the coming months. >> yeah. >> absolutely. >> thank you very both much. a quick break for us, we will be right back. right back. trading to help sharpen your skills, you can stay on top of the market from wherever you are. e*trade from morgan stanley. he hits his mark —center stage—and is crushed by a baby grand piano. you're replacing me? customize and save with liberty bibberty. he doesn't even have a mustache. only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ j.p. morgan wealth management knows it's easy to get lost in investment research.

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we have an update to a story we brought at the top of the program, we learn florida judge cannon has denied one of trump's to motions to dismiss the federal classified documents case in florida. cannon found the argument being made by trump's lawyers in court today with the main statue being used by prosecutors is unconstitutionally vague and it's premature so dismissal on the grounds will not happen. we are waiting for her judgment on the other argument made by trump's lawyers today that bizarre one, having to do with the presidential records act, the stuff mixed in with his underwear, we will bring it to you if it comes down. another break for us, we will be right back. right back

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another symptom of a democracy in decline, the effort to ban books in 2023 marked the highest level of attempted book bands ever recorded. from an already starting to thousand 571 individual titers that were targeted in 2022, two 4240 titles targeted in 2023. the ala identify trends from this year's data, groups targeted public libraries in addition to school libraries, nearly half or 47% of those books focus on lgbtq people and people of color. we will stay on that story. thank you for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times.