that does it for me. be sure to catch the katie phang show on saturdays at 12:00 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> i took him very legally, and i wasn't hiding them. we had boxed on the front, a lot of boxes had clothing. we were moving out. unfortunately, we're moving out. i had the right to do it in my

opinion and my lawyers' opinion. >> donald trump who still wants us to believe he can legally stash america's most sensitive secrets in a mar-a-lago bathroom was back in court today, requesting that the whole criminal case be dismissed. also tonight, vice president kamala harris makes an historic visit to an abortion clinic as republicans continue to push for a national ban. and i call this one. the big push to force a chinese company to divest tiktok would allow the far right maga crowd to swoop in and gobble it up, which now seems very possible. >> but we begin tonight with the lone exception to donald trump's petulant attacks against the judges and prosecutors in the numerous criminal and civil trials against him. that would be one judge aileen cannon, a trump appointee, where remind you, who is overseeing the federal criminal case involving trump's mishandling of classified documents.

today's hearing in a florida courtroom on two of trump's motions to try to throw out the case is the latest example of why trump has likely laid off on the attacks. trump himself was in court even though he was not required to be there. over the nearly five-hour hearing, trump's lawyers tried to make the ludicrous argument that those highly classified government documents that were found at mar-a-lago were actually trump's personal documents, and that he had every right to keep them according to the presidential records act. and if you forgot, according to the indictment, those documents that trump claims are clearly his, include information regarding defense and weapons capabilities of both the united states and foreign countries, u.s. nuclear programs, potential vulnerabilities of the united states and its allies to military attack, and plans for a possible retaliation in response to a foreign attack. and trump's lawyers also argued that the section of the

espionage act regarding the willful retention of national defense information that he's accused of violating is unconstitutionally vague as applied to trump. mind you, this same law has been used to convict countless others who have mishandled classified documents. as recently as this month. i'm not aware if any of the others who were convicted stored the documents they took behind a cheap shower curtain in their bathrooms like trump did. fortunately, judge cannon has already returned a ruling on that, denying the motion. but punting on a final decision, writing that it would be better suited to be addressed at a later time in connection with jury instructions briefing and/or other appropriate motions. i guess that we should feel heartened that she thinks this will come in front of a jury at some point. but as ridiculous as thee trump arguments are, perhaps equally ridiculous is the fact cannon is entertaining these motions at all, when legal experts tell us most judges would have dismissed

them on their face. and these are not the only motions trump has filed in the case. there are five more that cannon could decide to hold hearings on as well. before setting a trial date, including one on presidential immunity, which will be heard by the u.s. supreme court on april 25th. and all of this leads to trump's real agenda as it has been with each of his other cases, delay, delay, delay. to that, he has been very successful. joining me now is msnbc legal analyst, neal katyal, professor of law at georgetown university, and dave aronberg. i have to tell you, neal, i'm incredibly cynical about this judge. you know, we have friends like you, friends like dave, and i can't think of anyone who takes seriously these motions that are before this judge. it seems like entertaining them at all is a way to delay. your thoughts. >> so joy, look, federal judges

can sometimes surprise. and that's here many expectations for judge cannon were low given her rulings last year for a special master which was nuts and was overturned by the conservative court of appeals with harsh language. here so far, judge cannon has done the right thing, rejecting one of trump's motions calling as you said the statute unconstitutionally vague, which is preposterous. but to me, the big concern is that jack smith today maybe won a battle but he's losing the war. i feel very much like it's about -- just like the supreme court and absolute immunity. the supreme court agreed, as you said, to hear donald trump's absolute immunity case on april 25th. there is no chance that trump is going to win and that the court is going to say he has absolute

immunity, but what the supreme court did there is delay his trial for january 6th charges potentially to after the election. and the same thing i fear is happening with judge cannon. she keeps kicking the can down the road. i mean, the fact that she had a day-long hearing today, joy, on these two bogus issues tells you everything you node to know. the only thing that donald trump's arguments today warrant were an eye roll and a swift denial. >> and dave, it's very hard, i think at this point, given all of the politics from the supreme court on, not to view aileen cannon and also mr. hur, who clerked i believe for judge rehnquist at one point, as auditioning. they're helping donald trump. he doesn't have the most genius lawyers in the world. all they have to do is keep appealing and appealing and filing motions and that's all it apparently takes to have justice delayed, which in a sense for the people of the united states

and voters is justice denied. >> yeah, joy. i agree with you and neal that trump can win by losing. he can lose all these hearings and still win because his strategy is to delay things. trump is nervous about this particular charge because it is the strongest case against donald trump. the espionage act, obstruction, they have him dead to rights. his only defense is he somehow declassified the documents in his mind like some jedi mind trick is preposterous. if he can keep delaying it, he expects to be president again. then he can order his attorney general to drop everything. then he can appoint aileen cannon to the supreme court. although it seems like jack smith won today because she didn't boot the entire espionage act claim, she postponed her decision. she denied it without prejudice, meaning that donald trump can bring it up again in the middle of the trial and if judge cannon agrees in the middle of the

trial, then double jeopardy attaches and jack smith won't be able to appeal it to the 11th circuit court of appeals and then jack smith is done on that claim. so it's a temporary victory, a victory for now. >> and exactly, and that's why i called it auditions. mr. hur and ms. cannon might see themselves as justices when clarence thomas and alito predictably resign if a republican becomes president. that's just me. let me read the letter from donald trump's lawyers to congress. they said this, we have seen absolutely no indication that president trump knowingly possessed any of the marked documents or willfully broke any laws. rather, all indications are that the presence of marked documents at mar-a-lago was the result of haphazard records keeping and packing by white house staff and gsa, so blaming them. the applicable statute is willful retention. to prove willful retention, the prosecutor must establish it was knowing. now let's play donald trump

talking about willful possession. >> i can't imagine you ever saying, bring me some of the boxes that we brought back from the white house. i would like to look at them. did you ever do that? >> i don't have the right to do that. there's nothing wrong with that. i have the right to take stuff, i have the right to look at stuff. i took the documents, i'm allowed to. by the way, they become automatically declassified when i took them. all i know is this, everything i did was right. >> neal, that's why he's afraid of this case, because he's admitted he did it. >> yeah. he hasn't been able to get his story straight with his lawyers, joy. so that's a really good illustration. his lawyers are saying oh, there's no indication whatsoever that trump willfully took the documents and then he says it all over. i think even more damning for trump is trump was caught on audiotape basically bragging about having classified documents with a journalist and saying, well, you know, i've got these highly classified documents and so on.

i probably shouldn't show them to you or some language like that. that's why i agree, this case, it's in a way the strongest case, just because it's so simple. i mean, anyone who has dealt with national security information knows this is the easiest case. you prosecute this stuff every day of every week. and it's not just that trump took the documents. it's that he willfully retained them after the fbi, the national archives, others said hey, give it back. there are all sorts of shenanigans that happened including most tellingly, what employee 5 said. employee number 5 said look, i was summoned to mar-a-lago and was told that i had to -- that i was there because we were trying to figure out with the videotapes governing the storage room, that oversaw the storage room would be erasable and how quickly they would be erased.

it sounded like a mob conversation. trump's charged not just with stealing the documents. he's charged with obstruction afterwards. and i think it's a damning case for him. >> you mentioned him, let's play him. his name is brian butler, employee number 5. let's play him. this is him talking about moving the boxes which contained national security secrets. >> so i left mar-a-lago. i texted him, hey, i'm on my way. he followed me. he pulled out and got behind me. i ended up loading all the luggage i had and he had a bunch of boxes. >> you noticed he had boxes. >> yeah, they were the boxes in the indictment, the white bankers boxes. that's what i remember loading. >> did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially u.s. national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue. >> one of the things. dave, that i think we should note here is one of the reasons he says that he did that interview on cnn is that judge

aileen cannon allowed the release of information about who the witnesses would be. which puts them in danger, puts them in jeopardy of death threats, whatever you get when you talk about donald trump, and so he came forward on his own. what he said is absolutely damning. he was one of the people not only moving the boxes but as neal said, he was one of the people who was talked to about hiding the security camera footage. >> yeah. it is pretty damning in itself that he was worried that the federal judge in this case, aileen cannon, would release his name and information, that he had to go forward on his own terms and get his information out there. lest he be attacked by the maga world. so that's troubling in itself. it's also troubling by the fact that trump interprets a presidential records act as meaning that he can take whatever he wants, it turns the whole act on its head. the act was established after watergate to insure that government records are owned by the people. and the archives, not the president. so he can no more take government records and classified documents than he

could take air force one or rent out the lincoln bedroom on airbnb. he can do none of these things wrk and the fact that trump shows up himself to these hearings tells you how important he thinks this is and how he thinks perhaps he can get one over on judge cannon by reminding her perhaps that he's the one who appointed her. >> please don't threaten him with a good time. he might just actually try to take air force one and turn it into one of his failed airlines. to you, neal, you have another case that does seem like it's proceeding along, that's alvin bragg's case. alvin bragg now has suggested a delay. it's like this guy has to be the luckiest dude in the world, donald trump. bragg's court filing indicates trump's legal team ought to get a delay of 90 days after receiving 73,000 pages of records from the u.s. attorney's office in manhattan. on wednesday, the filing said federal prosecutors producing 31,000 pages of additional records and represented there would be another production of

documents by next week. this trial was supposed to start march 25th. can you explain why so late in delivering those documents? doesn't everyone nn there's a calendar and we need to get one of these trials at least done before the election? >> no. can't do it. i can explain a lot of things, joy. i cannot explain this. this whole southern district of new york investigation into trump and michael cohen has been the gift that keeps on giving to donald trump. so first, this office didn't prosecute donald trump, it only prosecuted michael cohen back when trump was president. we know what that was about. but once trump was out and biden was president, this office still didn't prosecute him. now, there's this office has delayed providing documents to trump for some period of time leading to this last-minute extension. now, to be on the other side, the manhattan district attorney, alvin bragg in his filing today

said this is trump's fault. that basically they requested documents from the u.s. attorney's office, got a whole bunch of documents they turned over to trump on june 8th of 2023, and that it was trump's lawyers in january of '24 just recently who sought extra documents. so they're putting it on them. but you know, it sure seems like maybe both of these actors are to blame, both the southern district and trump. i don't know, but the result is, and i think we're all hinting, we want the american public wants to know what the heck happened. it looks like donald trump got a really serious campaign finance contribution that may have swung the election for him, and that it was illegal every day of the week, so that deserves to be looked at. >> at least something deserves to be looked at, right? i think the american people deserve to know whether this man is a felon on any of these. now it's 88 charges left before the election. it's stunning to me. and i'm sure stunning to you

both as legal professionals that it appears he's so far getting away with all of it and not having a trial is the same essentially as getting away with it. if you never have a trail, you can never be a convict. stunning stuff. neal katyal, dave aronberg, what a world. take notes, future felons. this is how you get away with crimes. thank you very much. up next on "the reidout," vice president kamala harris made history today in a way that will be deeply meaningful for the presidential election. stay with us. [sfx: game controller] when occasional heartburn won't let you sleep. [sfx: game controller] get fast relief with tums+ heartburn + sleep support. love food back and fall asleep faster. ♪ tums tums tums tums ♪ okay y'all we got ten orders coming in... big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs

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today, vice president kamala harris made an historic stop in minnesota. visiting a planned parenthood clinic that provides abortions, something no president or vice president has ever done before. the vice president toured the clinic, met with providers, and delivered remarks where she directly called out elected leaders its states that have restricted or banned abortion. >> in this environment, these attacks against an individual's right to make decisions about their own body are outrageous and in many instances just plain old immoral. how dare these elected leaders believe they are in a better position to tell women what they need, to tell women what is in their best interest.

we have to be a nation that trusts women. >> harris also highlighted the fact that these clinics provide many essential health care services other than just abortions. >> please do understand that when we talk about a clinic such as this, it is absolutely about health care and reproductive health care. so everyone get ready for the language. uterus. that part of the body needs a lot of medical care from time to time. issues like fibroids, we can handle this, breast cancer screenings, contraceptive care. that is the kind of work that happens here. in addition, of course, to abortion care. >> joining me now is nbc news washington correspondent yammese alcindor who broke the story

about the vice president's historic trip. great reporting. this is historic. this has never happened. it also feels like a really good and natural way for the vice president to be used, is the administration finding their legs on what best to do with this asset, kamala harris? >> absolutely think they're finding their legs. especially when you think about what she had to do when you think about her handling the border. when it comes to this, you have a vice president who is history making in her lived experiences being a black woman, being a woman of asian descent, but also, she's stepping into a space where no one else has been. in 2013, former president barack obama, he was the first president to address planned parenthood. that was a big deal almost ten years ago. now, you have the vice president saying i'm going to put boots on the ground, i'm going to say this woman right here who is providing abortion services, she's an asset to our country and we should treat her with dignity. the language she was using is really fiery and pointed. she talked about the fact elections matter. she said in minnesota where you have see the governor expand

abortion access, now you're seeing other states around minnesota restricting abortion access, which means that clinic where she was, they have seen nearly a 100% increase in out-of-state people coming into that clinic. she was talking about of course them not only doing abortions but also the fact that minnesota is essentially operating in a desert when it comes to abortion services. i thought it was also interesting that she called out, you played that clip, she called out some of the efforts to restrict abortion as amoral. using the language thal tells you she's going to lean into this. i expect as we get closer to november, you'll see the vice president continue to do this. it was the sixth stop on a tour that she kicked off in january. >> where else is she going? how far out in the map is she heading out? >> she's going to go all over the country from what i heard. high sources who helped me break the story tell me she has been telling people around her she doesn't want to be behind the podium anymore. she doesn't want to give speeches in washington talking

to people. she wants to be out in florida, in wisconsin, wisconsin is where she kicked it off. in the swing states, frankly, in michigan and all these places, the states that are going to decide the election, reminding people this is a key issue. polling bears out, women across this country, democrats, republicans, black, white, socioeconomic backgrounds all over, they're all concerned about abortion. >> i'll tell you why. this is kellyanne conway saying what donald trump wants to do regarding abortion. take a listen. >> do you think trump should come out for a 15-week ban? >> well, a national minimum standard, and it's not a ban. and he has said, i think he's told sean hannity a couple weeks ago, he was looking at that. he also said 16 weeks. as president, he had committed to signing into law a 20-week. >> so we have got now kellyanne conway admitting donald trump does want to go for a national ban. and then you have house republicans saying they believe that their members ought to talk

more about abortion, not less, saying they don't think they have a brand -- they have a brand problem, not a policy problem. and their reluctance to discuss the issue has left it to democrats, people like vice president harris, to define where the republicans stood. let me quickly play where they have stood in the past when it comes to abortion and women. >> if it's a legitimate rape, the female body has ways to try to shut that whole thing down. let's assume that maybe that didn't work or something. you know, i think there should be some punishment. the but the punishment ought to be on the rapist and not attacking the child. >> the representative, is rape the will of god? >> if you read the bible, there's a couple circumstances where that happened. and the lord uses all circumstances. >> yes, we absolutely make mistakes but god does not make mistakes. for some reason even some of of these very horrific cases, there was a reason that god allowed that, there to be a child out of that situation.

>> i mean, the challenge that republicans have is that they actually do want to ban abortion at a national level. they want to ban birth control. they want to ban things like ivf, so their communication, it's katie britt. they put her out and see says there's this horrible rape case, but she would make that woman have that baby. she's leaning into an area where she has no competition. >> she's leaning in an area where republicans are struggling to connect what they believe with what they want to tell voters. you have this issue where they don't want to say we want to ban abortions, but they do want to have a national 15-week ban on abortions. that's fact what it is. i also think it's interesting because even in this year where you have republicans who lost big because of abortion, they're having candidates like the man running for governor in north carolina, the republican candidate, he's said women's bodies aren't they own anymore once they're pregnant. that's a direct quote from him. you have this real issue, and

then former president trump saying i want to find a vp candidate who is help us on abortion. but again, he's going to be the main candidate and he was the person who was the reason roe v. wade overturned. it was his justices and it's a stated goal he had. this is definitely going to be an issue where democrats are going to continue to prioritize this, and the vice president, you can feel her in her element, she's feeling these women. she wants to talk about these women's lives. every time she talks about abortion, she talks about personal stories. today she was talking about women who were having miscarriages in toilets, a woman driving hundreds of miles from louisiana who got lost in downtown minnesota, they had to send a lyft for her because she was so terrified and was in crisis. these are really women who are dealing with life-threatening issues at times, women who are in real crises, who are now being put in this position to have to play politics and deal with what their political leaders think their bodies should be about to do. >> it plays to her strengths

because vice president harris was a prosecutor and a lot of his practice was dealing with sex crimes and dealing with the victim who are the victims of these crimes. she knows what that pain feels like, and her mom went through a medical -- the way her mother's life ended, she has a lot of empathy on the idea of women needing to be helped, and maternal health care is kind of one of her key issues. this is the exact way she should be operating in the campaign. great reporting. we have the aka, delta sigma theta convergence here. you even wore the green. we love it. yamiche alcindor, thank you. coming up, it's impossible to ignore the ominous forces that would benefit if tiktok's peer company is forced to sell it. that's up next. shingles. the rash can feel like an intense burning sensation that can last for weeks. shingles could disrupt work and time with family. over 50?

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yesterday, an overwhelming majority of the house of representatives passed a bill that would force bytedance to sell tiktok to an american company within six months. if they failed to doso, tiktok would be banned from app stores. they own a 1% stake in a bytedance subsidiary, and all types of politicians have said that poses a threat to u.s.

national security, data privacy, and mental wellbeing because they have access to the personal information of millions of americans. opponents say that banning a social media platform would amount to an unconstitutional violation of the freedom of speech of nearly 150 million americans. but why now? why is congress doing this? we have never received public evidence that the chinese communist party is using the app to spy on us or manipulate the masses. also, if we're so worried about foreign influence, why are the biggest foreign holders of u.s. debt japan and china? we import roughly $536 billion worth of goods from china. when's the last time you have been in walmart and checked where everything on the shelves was made, and why did we allow saudi arabia to buy influence by investing billions of dollars in uber, meta, microsoft, google's parent company alphabet, amazon, paypal, and pinterest, and the

list goes on and on. which brings me back to tiktok. again, we're told that china poses a distinct threat because of what the ccp could do with all that data. where is that same level of concern when it comes to twitter, facebook, instagram, reddit, and discord? these apps are all hotbeds of disinformation and in the case of elon's twitter, naziism and unrestrained hate. their algorithms have been manipulated by entatties foreign and domestic. those companies are owned by americans. so i guess algorithms that threaten kids' mental health and push hate and discrimination and disinformation are okay with dpresz as long as it's done by american owned companies run by oligarchs like elon musk and mark zuckerberg. why? yesterday, i asked this very simple question. would this forced sale be to a

person in particular? because all i want to know when i heard this is what rich billionaire american wants tiktok and who is it that is being set up to buy it. >> well, this morning we got an answer, and it's even more maga than we thought. that's next. t. that's next. . let's be honest... all: cidp sucks! voices of people with cidp: but living with cidp doesn't have to. when you sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com, you'll find inspiration in real patient stories, helpful tips, reliable information, and more. cidp can be tough. but finding hope just got a little easier. sign up at shiningthroughcidp.com. all: be heard. be hopeful. be you.

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today, senate majority leader chuck schumer, the highest ranking jewish elected official in our nation's history levied some of the harshest

criticism yet of benjamin netanyahu from a top u.s. official. >> i also believe prime minister netanyahu has lost his way by allowing his political survival to take the precedence over the best interests of israel. he has shown zero interest in doing the courageous and visionary work required to pave the way for peace. even before this present conflict. israel cannot survive if it becomes a pariah. >> republican leader mitch mcconnell quickly came to netanyahu's defense. >> it is grotesque and hypocritical for americans who hyperventilate about foreign interference in our own democracy to call for the removal of a democratically elected leader of israel arb where. >> national security spokesman john kirby who has all but

become the face of the policies said schumer gave the white house an advance of his remarks. and they declined to weigh in to dissuade him. >> we fully respect his right to make those remarks and to decide for himself what he's going to say on the senate floor. we obviously feel strongly about this. we understand and respect that. this wasn't about approval or disapproval of anything in any way. >> joining me is david roth cough, host of the deep state radio podcast. david, let's get into this because i listened to senator schumer's speech. it was remarkable in that it was along the same lines, he did a previous speech, his other floor speech on this supportive of israel's war in gaza. this one was tough. one of the things it highlighted for me was that he is moving in the direction of if there are elections and this current

right-wing government is re-elected, then the u.s. should use its leverage, meaning start to use the leverage of whether the aid keeps coming and the bombs keep being delivered. did you hear it that way? >> i heard it exactly that way. i thought you were right. it was remarkable. very different in tone than we have heard from senator schumer. but you have started to hear a lot of democrats in the senate and elsewhere embrace this tone. and i think what is at the center of it is drawing a distinction between support for israel and the people of israel and support for this government of israel. because it is this government that is ignoring u.s. advice, and it is this government that is overseeing this brutality in gaza that, you know, was stomach turning to anybody with a conscience or a sense of decency. >> this is the largest number of children killed in all of the wars that are taking place across the globe combined at this point.

the number of dead palestinian children is so breathtaking, the u.n. can barely believe it. but the other thing i think that's happened is you -- it feels to me, you can tell me if i'm wrong, if benjamin netanyahu has done more than any other israeli prime minister to politicize israel and politicize support for israel. not that both parties don't support israel, but he's made it very political. you saw republicans come out and say one thing and democrats come out and say another. he's kind of made his government sort of an adjunct of the republican party, no? >> yeah, absolutely. in fact, when mitch mcconnell used the words grotesque hypocrisy, which is something he knows about, he was talking about a situation today that is exactly the same as what netanyahu started to do nine years ago. everybody must remember, netanyahu came to the u.s., addressed the congress, did so around the obama administration,

threw in with trump, essentially made himself a maga surrogate before trump and during the trump administration, and now mcconnell is upset that people are politicizing this. this is nonsense. and his already decaying credibility was undermined further by saying that. >> it is kind of -- it's sort of wild to think about the fact netanyahu much like trump is somebody who has courted right wing religious forces, the far religious right, as trump has done here, who is always seen as a secular figure, as trump is not at all a christian figure. and then he courts this far right wing to stay in and he's also facing indictment. it's sort of like he is donald trump, and so it has been surprising, i guess, that before now our president, joe biden, who is against trumpian forces around the world, was embracing him. >> i think what biden was doing was embracing israel. biden has long been a supporter

of israel, and on and around october 7th, that was an easy thing to do. biden's mistake was to step further, embrace netanyahu, who everybody knew you could not trust, and then go on to say things like, well, we will be giving this aid unconditionally. when we give no aid unconditionally, there are laws that say we can't give aid unconditionally. and of course, the administration has had to spend much of the past several months backing away from that because netanyahu is not supportable if you're interested in the future of israel, security in the region, following the international law, or u.s. interests in the region. he's undermining all of those things, and i'm glad to see people starting to stand up and call him out for the real threat that netanyahu is to the things we believe in. >> do you see in what the administration, the pivot the administration is making, an attempt to go for the whole, the

long snasz the long touchdown, the 50-yard touchdown? because it does feel like they're aiming for the whole thing, an actual two-state solution, and it feels to me like the senate majority leader, chuck schumer, might be the horse out front as a stocking horse for a real genuine pitch to solve the thing which does seem like that is kind of the best way for biden to solve his political problem as well. >> well, there's no near term two-state solution, but i think everybody has realized in the wake of october 7th that a two-state solution is the only actual solution that may bring peace and stability to the region. and so as hard as it is to get there, we have to take the steps. and the vice president has been very clear about what those are. we need to get rid of hamas. we need new leadership for the palestinians. and we need a leadership change in israel. i think you see the administration, people on the hill, all recognizing that we

have to have all of those changes if there is going to be lasting peace in this region. and after all, that's what's in our interests. that's what's in israel's interests, that's what's in the interest of that entire neighborhood. and this is encouraging, although we have to admit, it's too little too late. >> yeah, it's tough. and the amount of death also politically for the biden re-elect is problematic because americans are outraged and a lot of his base is outraged. david, thank you very much. it's always a pleasure. i want to let you all know we did have technical difficulties earlier. so the tease was not for naught. up next, we are going to get back to that tiktok story with our guest, robert reich. stay right there. it's a long tease. there it's a long tease. reds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need.

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you are trying to buy tiktok ? >> i am. it should be owned by u.s. businesses and there is no way the chinese will ever us company owned something like this in china. and it would be no one investor and i would be a combination investor. the issue is all about the technology. this needs to be controlled by the u.s. the app needs to be rebuilt in the united states

and it needs to be united states technology. there is a lot that could be done in six months. >> that guy. the former trump treasury secretary steven mnuchin who thought this scrooge mcduck photo op with this sheet of dollar bills and from the killer saudi prince, that guy is the one eager to scoop up tiktok which is the least surprising thing ever and he doesn't tell us exactly what will be part of the consortium, but i am sure the current tiktok investor and current billionaire donor who just so happen to set down recently with the trump a few weeks ago will probably want a piece of the action and if past is prologue, it looks like these folks are looking to do to tiktok what elon musk did to twitter and murdoch did to creating fox and rush limbaugh did a talk radio. joining me now is the former labor secretary of the clinton administration and a professor

of public policy. robert, i am glad you are available because you were a person as cynical as i was and you are in my thoughts on your social media feed because as soon as i saw the vote came through to make tiktok sale, sell it to which billionaire and what you make of that? >> this is really a billionaires ball they are having over tiktok and you really do have to ask yourself do you trust american billionaires to guard your privacy and not manipulate you any more than you trust who? the chinese or anybody else around the world? and billionaires own more and more of our giant media conglomerates and technology and have more power in our system. i think the issue is really power like it is in so many other domains in our life.

>> they are so afraid and there are democrats and republicans who believe this, that china will come in and start manipulating the minds of our young people. i am sorry. i read a story about discord and telegram being used to feed suicidal intent in the young people and you seen this turn up in terrorism cases that people are plotting negative action and violence on these platforms and twitter has become a dumpster fire of is him and hate and you have had facebook used by the russians to manipulate americans during the 2016 election and i could go on. how is tick-tock any different? >> i want to stress with you and it is something you know and a lot of people out there now that we really do have to start looking at these giant technology platforms as public

utilities and they have to be regulated like public utilities and we used to have a whole body of law in this country governing public utilities and these are monopolies. these are network effects in terms of monopolies and they have a huge potential for good and also damage and we have seen it and it doesn't matter who owns it or whether this billionaire that billionaire or the chinese or anybody else. we have to understand that in our democracy, we americans have a right to treat these as public utilities and have them regulated. >> they could simply regulated and that would be more like doing their jobs and just the idea and in terms of trying to steal the technology is it that they are controlled by bytedance engineers and after trump tried to force the sale

beijing place export restrictions on its algorithms and the operations could be sold but not the key technology that powers the app, meaning the algorithm would have to be rebuilt which means that tiktok would go down temporarily. i think your point is much more important. the algorithm is in the hands of maga friendly people that would make tiktok more like twitter and wouldn't increase or decrease the danger. but and let me ask you this. could members of congress invest in this stuff? >> absolutely. >> if it is an american company, there is nothing stopping them from messing and it? >> no. that's an important principle. just because it is called an american company it doesn't mean it will be functioning in the public interest. american companies don't naturally function in the public interest and their purpose is to maximize profits for shareholders and their

shareholders are not just americans but they increasingly are worldwide and global. if these things are not regulated appropriately and we don't understand they have to be regulated, again, it doesn't matter who owns them and the issue is who really has responsibility for making sure they are responsible. >> absolutely. these things could be regulated and they don't have to be shut down. lastly the free-speech aspect. there are a lot of people who wouldn't have a voice other than these plat dorms and what would do to free speech to shut it down? >> it would hurt it, obviously. again, free speech, when we usually talk about the first amendment, we talk about the government. it is rights against the government. but with regard to these huge mega platforms and their monopoly, the people do need access. >> we are out of time and i am

running into the next show so i will stop