i'm katy tur. in for chris jansing. judge scott mcafee as a modern day king solomon, and the

conduct was problematic enough, if she does say, nathan wade has to go. quote, an odor of mendacity remains, as long as wade remains on the case, this unnecessary perception will persist. what will the d.a. fani willis say to that? we're waiting on her response. what we're not waiting on is donald trump's legal response. his lawyer is vowing to keep fighting for willis' removal or the end of the case entirely. which he says, quote, should never have been brought in the first place. our reminder, the sweeping indictment accused trump and 18 codefendants of collaborating to overturn georgia's 2020 election, through a pressure campaign, fals claims about voter fraud, and fake electors. joining me now, nbc's blayne alexander who is outside of the court in atlanta, former assistant director, the manhattan district attorney's office, msnbc legal analyst katherine christian, and msnbc legal correspondent, lisa ruben. everybody, welcome. blayne alexander, i will start

with you. you got this decision first. tell me what the reaction has been. >> reporter: well, it certainly has been notable. i think that it depends who you ask. so from the d.a.'s office, that's who we within to hear from first, because really what happens next and when it happens is up to her. so far her audience has been radio silent and reached out several times of the day with how to proceed and we have not gotten response. from the defense attorneys we are hearing from some of them. there are a number of defense attorneys involved in this. first, you mentioned steve sadow, you read a little bit about his statement. i want to see a bit of a statement from ashley merchant, something before this saga got under way was a really unknown character in all of this and she has shot to the forefront as the person who unearthed this allegation. she says in part, while we believe the court should have disqualified willis' office entirely, this opinion is a vindication that everything put forth by the defense was true,

accurate and rest surrounding our client's right to a fair trial. i asked do they plan to appeal, do they not? and she said just like the rest of the case, she is waiting to see what the d.a. does and that would impact their own steps going forward. she also says she is going to take time and talk it over with her client. as for the d.a. fani willis, she has a couple of options. the one most people would look at, that she should be be disqualifying wade and remove him from the case and she is able to proceed. but she has the option to appeal this, if she so chooses. so certainly, it is going to be a question of what she decides to do, and when she decides to do it. >> we're still waiting, as we said, on the d.a. fani willis' decision, it is seeming unlikely that she would say that nathan wade would stay off, but her office would be dismissing this. any indication, when she does make the decision, or officially announce, it what's going to happen next with this sweeping case? >> reporter: well, i think that the next thing that we look at

is the time line, right? officially, a couple of trial dates have been thrown out. the only one of those, the most recent, was mid august, and that was, many people believed, an unrealistic time line, even before we got into this kind of side motion to dismiss her. so given the fact that over the last two and a half months we have been talking largely about this, this motion to dismiss, that is a completely, that has completely eclipsed the case and really ground it to a standstill. the question of going to trial by that date, or even before the election seems highly, highly unlikely. the other question is, if wade is off the case, will she bring in somebody to replace him? it is not clear that she necessarily has to do that. but it is worth reminding our viewers that nathan wade really is the person who has been on there from the beginning. he didn't just come on when the indictment was handed out last summer. he is the person that fani willis hired to start this investigation off, to shepherd the special grand jury process. so throughout that eight months of testimony, he was in there. he was in those hearings, he was asking the questions and so you

could argue the institutional knowledge that he brings to the case is greater than those who remain on her staff. certainly not to impugn their knowledge, or their abilities as well. but then the question is, will she hire somebody and get them up to speed or will she proceed with who she has remaining on the staff? >> you have been following this from the beginning. is there anything in the indictment, the 23-page decision from the judge that stood out to you? >> his tone. absolutely his tone. he talks about the law. he talks about legally, he is not going to disqualify there, but he didn't hesitate to take her to task. he calls it, you know, he pulls forward some things, talking about the mendacity about this, tucking about this was bad judgment -- talking about this was bad judgment, he called out the testimony, the two-hour testimony that we all watched play out live where she surprised her own legal team and took the stand and called that unprofessional. and certainly very clear that, yes, he is saying okay, you can stay on the case, if you remove

nathan wade, but he's not smiling at this behavior. he is, you know, criticizing this behavior, certainly scolding her, in several parts, so that is certainly interesting to note. he didn't hold back in that regard. >> blayne alexander, thank you very much. let's dig into the legal analysis here. let's pick up where we left off, the tone of this, and it was surprising to read through it. i mean i called him, my e.p. called him a modern king solomon, and i think that is exactly right because he goes straight down the middle here and says the law doesn't support removing here but that doesn't mean what she did was okay. >> and in many respects, one of the things i'm struck by in the opinion, he has this place, on page nine of the opinion, where he talks about, yes, there's not an actual conflict of interest here, that would disqualify her, and it is my duty just to confine myself to the questions that are being put before me, do i have to disqualify her or not, and then he goes on to list a

variety of state agencies or regulatory bodies that oversee lawyers, and basically says they can look at these unanswered questions, and by the way, included in that list, that included the general assembly of georgia, that's the state legislature, the georgia state ethics commission, the state bar, he also includes in that the voters of fulton county. all of whom he says can offer feedback on any unanswered questions that linger. is this inquiry over for fani willis about the propriety of her conduct? absolutely not. even if she is able to skay on the case, provided she makes the decision to remove nathan wald. >> i found it centering reading through it, interesting, reading through it, the argument the defense puts forth in getting them removed, she had a reason to extend this case, to keep on billing hours, to pay nathan wade, was enriching her, the longer it dragged on, and the judge said there is no record of that. what we've seen from d.a. fani willis over and over again is she has tried to expedite this

case. >> exactly. >> she wanted a trial in six months. she has gone through every motion to try to say this needs to happen sooner, not later. >> yes. she has from the beginning said you want a quick trial, let's try the case. so that wasn't a very good argument. and the judge sort of slapped that down. it is a very stinging decision, but she won in that she hasn't been disqualified, but it is very stinging, and as lisa said, she and mr. wade might be subjected to ethical considerations that, you know, they might be deemed to have violated the rules of ethics, because -- >> could she be disbarred? >> i don't think this rises to the level of disbarment. but there is something called a letter of admission, depending on the jurisdiction, where you're basically -- don't do that again, a public censure, but sure, prosecutors have specific rules about their behavior that other lawyers don't have. and they should. because prosecutors, you have people's freedom in your hands. >> can she still effectively try this case? >> i think she can.

i think it was very wise, i'm glad the judge ordered that wade be removed, because i'm not so sure that she would have done it on her own. she have been off this case as soon as this motion was filed. he either should have voluntarily done it or she should have removed him. his presence has just been an unnecessary distraction. >> the other argument that the defense team, the team against fani willis, and the defense is actually the prosecution in this, and the prosecution is acting like the defense, is to say that she did something wrong by going out and making that speech at the church, and by bringing race into it, she could have contaminated the jury pool. what did the judge say about that? >> the judge basically said that that was legally improper. again, it didn't rise to the level of what georgia law considers forensic misconduct, that so prejudiced the defendant that it warrants a dismissal of her disqualification. on the other hand, he said it was inappropriate for her to insinuate the guilt of the clients here, and also to

insinuate that these accusations were only coming forward was nathan wade was a black man playing a white man's pawn. that's essentially what she was trying to get at. so i think that too will be a subject of these ethical inquiries. and i also want to point something out, because to catherine's point, i think she can be credibly involved in the prosecution of this case. however, mcaftery took her to task for her judgment and unprofessional manner of had her testimony. she has rehabilitative work to do in terms of her relationship. >> i think -- >> they know each other by the way. they used to serve in the d.a.'s office together, before she was flamed or elected d.a. >> before he was ever a judge, he made a small campaign donation to her. he's probably as disappointed in her conduct as most of the rest of us are, despite the fact that he took the action that he did. i think one of the ways that she does that is by involving people of long-standing involvement in the d.a.'s office.

as opposed to to going out by the d.a.'s office and hiring somebody at $250, bring in some real veterans of the office, john floyd and an fla cross, two of the other special prosecutors here, mese note criteria. but there are probably a number of very talented people within the office already, who have a lot of credibility, who could be brought into this case. letting other people shine and take a starring role would be one really good way to bring this case back on track. >> you talk about $250 an hour by the way, the judge remarked said that is not a lot of money for someone working in private practice for go and take on wade. and he also said that wade had a certain limit for his billable hours. any time he exceeded that limit, we have to get approval from her, and he never exceeded that limit. there was no approval ever given. so he was well within the norms of the office. any chance that she tries to go back to the former governor? >> she might, but i think he's made it clear he wants nothing to do with it. >> yes. >> you're right.

>> i think, you know, it is possible, look, i don't think anybody thinks that nathan wade was the first choice here. the question is whether she can find somebody of similar stature to a roy barns, if not -- >> any chance this goes to trial before the election? >> no way. >> no way. >> ladies, thank you very much. good to have you. and we're back in 60 seconds. former president trump on and off planes for his campaign. and for court. but what exactly is he going to stand trial, when is he exactly going to stand trial? we have an answer on the georgia case. what about the others? don't go anywhere. go anywhere.

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has yet to reschedule the may 20th trial date. in dc, the judge is on hold until the supreme court rules on immunity. and in georgia, as we just discussed, the case is now back in the hands of d.a. fani willis, but likely won't go to trial before the election. and in new york, which was supposed to start on march 25th, trump's defense along with the d.a. prosecuting him, are now asking for a delay. so what gives? joining me now, nbc's dasha burns reporting from west palm beach, florida. mark mckinnon former adviser to george w. bush and john mccain. and tia mitchell, washington correspondent for the atlanta journal constitution. tia, because we ended with georgia, i would like to stay there for a second. do you have an indication of what needs to happen before d.a. fani willis might be able to go to trial? >> well, first and for most, she has to make a decision how she's going to respond to judge mcafee's ruling today. he was very clear, if she and

her office want to remain in charge of this case, she's got to part ways with nathan wade. so we need to hear is she going to do that? is she going to appeal? of course, the defense attorneys for some of -- for trump, any of his codefendants, could also appeal. and so what is kind of in the short term with what needs to happen. but there are a lot of moving parts with a lot of defendants, a lot of charges, so there's -- it's nowhere near close to time for a trial in this georgia trump election interference case. >> so dasha, what is interesting is donald trump's team has been using these court appearances as campaign fodder, and the campaign and his team around him says it is working, it has helped in the polls in a way that maybe other events would not have. so counter intuitively, how do they feel about all of these delays? is there a side of them that wants to see something go to trial so they can use it as a public display, in their words,

of vilification? >> reporter: well, look, there is a difference between how this played to the primary audience, versus the general election audience, right? i don't think you will see any swing voters wearing a trump mug shot t-shirt. however, they have seen what we have watched unfold here, as a possible tactic to do what they've done time and time again is to muddy the waters. while there is no trial started as soon as they might have liked to see, there is this opening that was created by this ruling, with some of the language that judge mcafee had in here. he was using phrases like edorf mendacity, a financial cloud of impropriety, potential untruthfulness, and questioning willis's judgment over and over again in the 20-some pages, and that judge, court and public

opinion favor for trump and the legal team, because they can use, that they can point to that, so to sow those seeds of doubt in the process, in the prosecutor, and in the institution, and when it comes to these trials, look, i mean very practically, it was going to be very difficult for him to juggle the campaign trail and having to show up in court, and they were trying to figure out strategies for how to do that. so now that's delayed a little bit. and that is, at the end of the day, what they want. they want to be able to use this to say hey, they're coming at me, biden's political opponents, but at the same time they do want to be out there talking to voters and rallying the base and getting folks excited to vote. so right now, they're kind of in a solid spot in terms of their planning, and again, the courtroom drama doesn't play quite in the same way to the general election voter, or the swing voter, as it did to the sort of maga base. >> mark, what do you think? does this have an effect on the voters by and large? >> well, what would have an

effect on the voters is if there is a conviction. we know from research and data that that would tend to change folks' minds, including a lot of republicans. the reality is now that it is highly unlikely. even if there was a conviction, which now seems unlikely there will be any trials, but even if there was, that would be on appeal. so i think that what has happened here is that the bottom line strategy for the trump team was to delay everything as long as possible. the irony is that it is the prosecution and not the defense that's helped delay these trials. i mean it delayed the georgia case by two months. and now in the new york trial, because of the screw-up that they will have a delay. and the prosecution is helping the trump team for the delay. and all of this means that ultimately the bottom line is going to be what -- by the way, in terms of the legal matters, i think that they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent, but politically, what is important is that trump is beaten at the ballot box, not so

much the jury box. >> explain that. >> well, because i think that ultimately, voters think that -- i mean certainly they feel that a lot of these legal prosecutions are politically tainted, and by the way, any political prosecution that's successful will only make trump a martyr, and i think enhance his power, certainly within the maga base, and i just think there is sort of unrest if trump were denied his political evolution, if that's what ultimately what happens at the ballot box, because of a legal precedent, and that's why i think we would see real violence and unrest. so my preference would be that trump be beaten at the ballot box, and done so clearly and completely. >> the hush money case could potentially still go to trial over the summer. there are questions if the supreme court, mark, rules on immunity, if that goes to trial, if it goes back to the judge in september, or october, right ahead of the election. i've been stuck on something

that our friend claire mccaskill has said about that. she thinks it would be a benefit for donald trump to go to trial that late, just ahead of the election, because so many voters tune in, in those moments, and we be able to effectively argue that he's being unfairly treated politically targeted, right ahead of the election and it would look unsavory to at least a significant portion of voters. do you share that sentiment? >> i think layer is very savvy and i think that is exactly right. and by the way that's why the d.o.j. has a provision within its recommended rules which is that you don't prosecute cases within a certain window in front of an election. and that's exactly what would happen, i think. and i think it would, as claire said, i think it would inure to trump's benefit to have any kind of legal proceedings happen any time after labor day. >> it is a d.o.j. rule, but the judge doesn't have to follow that. the judge has no authority or obligation to stand by what the d.o.j. says in that matter. so we'll see if the judge schedules it any ways.

tia, what is your sense of that? >> yes, i think that, both judges will be hesitant to have a trial that is just getting under way close to an election. i think the question is, do any of these trials get going, you know, perhaps in the summer, late summer, where you could see a judge envisioning being able to wrap up in a way that doesn't fall too close to the election. that's a question, again, we mentioned some of the cases in new york that might be a little bit more prime to get going sooner rather than later. but again, the georgia case, the dc-based case, about january 6th, even the case down in florida, with the documents, it just doesn't seem like they will be able to get under way without coming up against the election, or likely some of them, election notwithstanding, they're just not going to be ready before

november. >> dasha, anybody on the trump team expressed anything about a late trial to you, and what they would feel, and how they would feel about it? >> reporter: they're all -- i mean for the most part, all for it, and politically, right? there is always the divide. the lawyers are dealing with the legal ramifications of this, but politically, it gives them the air time. it gives them those moments. and it gives him the opportunity to flip the script. we've already seen this happen, katy, and saying president biden is trying to imprison his political opponent, he has compared himself to alexei navalny, so there would allow him a platform to continue to hammer that case. and one thing that i keep hearing from operatives and advisers is that the fact that there are so many cases right now, both criminal and civil, it may be better for trump than if there was one singular case that everybody could follow all of the developments minute by minute. it is certainly difficult for

everybody to keep up with what is happening. and it allows the trump team to sort of muddy the waters, and get their messaging to cut through more so than these sort of -- the legal minutia that nobody really wants to pay attention to. >> dasha burns, tia mitchell and catherine mckenna, thank you very much. a fun exciting friday night for you. join the legal experts and authors, melissa murray, and andrew weissmann, and address precedent for criminal charges against a former political leader, and share a time line of the events that led to these four indictments. right here on msnbc. coming up, a massive shipment of food has arrived on the shores of gaza. what it will take to feed hungry palestinians, as aid groups warn israel is restricting efficient deliveries. with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture.

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a much-needed shipment of flour, rice and protein is currently being loaded into trucks in central gaza. the first of a privately-funded shipment from chef jose andreas -- world central kitchen. it comes as secretary of state antony blinken says the u.s. is working intensively on a potential cease-fire agreement. and right after new comments by president biden who says that the majority leader chuck schumer, quote, made a good speech when he called for new

elections in israel yesterday. nbc's richard engel is live from jerusalem, and white house correspondent monica alba joins us from dc. first, to you, richard. what do we know about the cease-fire talks? >> reporter: well, we don't know much about the cease-fire talks. we know that hamas has presented a new proposal. they're proposing free hundreds of palestinian prisoners, close to a thousand palestinian prisoners, in exchange for prisoners, in exchange for women hostages, female hostages, in exchange for some of the ill hostages. the prime minister netanyahu, dismissed the proposal as absurd but he did send a negotiating committee. so his dismissal seems to be something of a negotiating tactic. so it appears that the talks are proceeding, and that these talks have been on and off at times, so we don't really know if there

is a sign of progress. we just know that they have resumed talks, the same kind of talks we've seen in the past with qatar and equip leading these multi-lateral talks. but the fact that hamas has come back with what is a counter-proposal, written down, specific numbers, and the dismissal from prime minister netanyahu aside, the fact that he is sending this delegation shows that, well, there is a potential for talks, but there is the potential for them to break down. so from where we are, not in the room, i think all we can say is there is some progress in that there resuming. >> what about aid, richard? what is happening with aid on the ground? >> reporter: so that's much more concrete, and it is quite an extraordinary story. so gaza is, obviously, cut off, and there's no infrastructure left in gaza. there are no functioning ports. and this aid group, world central kitchen, wanted to send aid because it was determined to

do it, it wasn't going to wait for the international community to set up a more appropriate infrastructure to distribute it. it just decided to build it as it went. and to put this convoy together, a ship towing a barge, it took three days to cross the mediterranean from cyprus, it arrived this morning, it took several hours to go the last few hundred yards from off of the gaza shore to a jetty which gazans made themselves because there is no real international community there. this charity, working with the local community, took stones from broken buildings, pieces of destroyed infrastructure, put them in the sea, created a jetty, and were able to unload about 200 tons of food and humanitarian supplies, which were then transported to trucks

to be distributed on a local level to the people of northern gaza. this ship went ashore, the barge, i should say, went to shore, because the ship stayed off the shore, and the barge went, attached to this jetty. it was celebrated by the aid organizations, celebrated by people in gaza. israel put out a statement and the world center kitchen was already planning another shipment of goods using a similar system. and i know a lot of humanitarian groups around the world were watching this very closely, and very anxiously, hoping that it would go well, hoping that the barge wasn't overrun, that there wouldn't be some sort of attack or mishap, so it seems like there will be several more ships to follow and it could be the start of a maritime corridor. it doesn't mean however it is the end of the humanitarian crisis in gaza. >> i do hope that it stays safe. i think chef andreas is incredible and he fights through

obstacles to get aid to where it is needed. we've seen it time and again. monica, let me ask you about the politics of this. chuck schumer it was said gave a good speech, standing on the floor of the senate, saying that, you know, hamas is not getting enough attention, enough anger from voices around the world, but also voices here at home, demanding a cease-fire from them, and to release the hostages. but he also said that prime minister benjamin netanyahu has no place leading the country any longer, and leading israel, that he's not in a position to do so effectively. and that there should be new elections. the president called it a good speech. john kirby today, speaking with our colleague andrea mitchell, didn't want to go that far. what happened? >> reporter: well, what is notable i think here in this context is the fact that leader schumer said and argued that the prime minister benjamin netanyahu had, quote, lost his way, because he hasn't been taking into account the severe cost of civilian casualties as

that humanitarian crisis you were just discussing continues to get so much worse by the day. but it does follow some comments by the president himself over the weekend, saying that in his opinion, he thought that netanyahu was hurting israel by not taking that into account, and that that wasn't something that was -- what should be happening. he effectively called it a mistake. so taking those things together, that is a bit of notable shift in language from some of the language earlier in the war, but the u.s. has remained steadfast in its commitment to allowing israel to defend itself against hamas. and they continue to repeat that over and over. but i do want to play this exchange that my colleague andrea mitchell had with the national security council spokesman john kirby just a short time ago. we'll talk about it on the other side. >> does the president of the united states think that the prime minister of israel is an obstacle to peace? >> the president will continue to work with prime minister

netanyahu, and his war cabinet, again, to do everything we can to alleviate that humanitarian suffering in gaza. now, look, we've been honest, andra , that there have been times, and not too distant past here, in recent days, where we don't believe that the israelis have done as much as they can do, and should do, to increase the level of trucks getting into gaza, and that there have been some obstacles to moving forward, in terms of getting them, the food, the water, the medicine, the fuel that they need. we've been very, very frank about that. >> let me just say that that answer, that that question is not answered three times. >> now, leader shume der give the white house a heads up that he was going to be making this speech, that he was going to be delivering these comments, and so the president was aware, there wasn't any kind of pushback to those comments, or any kind of steer, so it is notable that this was something the white house knew was happening, but they're very quick to point out that of course congress is a co-equal branch of government and leader

schumer was making these comments in his congressional capacity, and that they don't reflect the stated position of the biden administration in that way. but if you just look at the comments over the last couple of weeks, it's very clear what the president has said privately to the israeli prime minister, and now is saying a bit more publicly about what he would like to see shift there. but we should note of course, that at this point, the u.s. has not shifted any of its strategy, or policy, in terms of conditioning aid, even though it is raising these questions about the humanitarian crisis in gaza. >> monica alba, thank you very much. richard engel, thank you, a moment ago as well. coming up, a legal setback for new jersey senator bob menendez, a judge decided he must face all of the federal charges against him. plus, next hour, former fbi general counsel andrew weissmann on fani willis and the future of fulton county and the case there. why he says her upcoming role in that trial still is not certain. a pi

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senator bob menendez is not getting the charges against him dropped. a manhattan judge just denied his attempt to dismiss some on the grounds of immunity of the senior senator from new jersey is accused of taking hundreds of thousands of dollars in bribes, including cash and gold bars in exchange for using his influence to aid the egyptian government. nbc investigative correspondent

tom winter is follow this case for us. so tom, menendez tried and has now failed. what's next? >> right, so a couple of different paths here. basically, the argument from menendez is well, you guys are coming after me about different aid and different things that i was talking about with the egyptian government, and egyptian officials, but that's my job, that's my job. the judge said well, it is your job, but it is not your job to promise something in exchange for something. and that's where the judge really came down on this ruling, and several rulings associated with these motions from menendez who of course has pleaded not guilty in the course of three superseding indictments now. so, what's next for this is certainly he could appeal this. this is something that key try to move forward with in the court system. but we're looking at a trial date here of may 3rd for the senator, and so that's really what's next on the horizon. then what happens with his co-defendants as well, the judge has to make a determination, as far as whether they proceed with respect to severing this trial. that is another potential

complication, because both menendez and his wife have brought up the fact that there is obviously some legal considerations, a couple is married, and they can't be compelled to testify against each other or provide any evidence against the other. so in this particular instance, either side might choose, or might want to say well, the other side told me this is what this payment was about, or the other side told me this is what we were discussing, so i think that there is some potential concerns there, and the judge might have to make a determination whether or not this trial gets severed, so does it get pushed back or not, all we'll see in the coming months. >> maybe, as we've been talking about. >> perhaps the theme of the show is the trial could be delayed. >> that is a really exciting show. >> i'm doing my best. >> everything is delayed. tom, thank you very much. and there is a growing measles outbreak in chicago. ten of the city's 12 confirmed cases have now been traced back

to a migrant shelter. nbc's jesse kirsch has that story. >> reporter: chicago officials are trying to keep up with an outbreak of measles, and multiple communities including two public schools. overall, the city reporting ten cases in just one week. eight of those infections found here, at a single city migrant shelter. >> at this point, would you say the situation is under control? >> well, measles is quite contagious. and it spreads among those who are not vaccinated. so we are trying to get it under control, by vaccinating as many people as possible. >> chicago's commissioner of public health says the city has vaccinated more than 900 shelter residents. but that was after the outbreak began. and immunization takes time. >> it takes 21 days for the vaccines to become effective. >> reporter: this woman is staying at the shelter with her two young children. she agreed to speak with us if we concealed her identity. the conditions are awful, she

told us. there's more than 300 people in one area. we're all crammed together. the city says it's trying to create more space, moving families with vulnerable pregnant women and children less than a year old to hotel rooms. nationwide, the cdc reports at least 45 measles cases combined across 17 states so far this year. but chicago's outbreak underscores that new migrant arrivals can mean new public health challenges. many here come from venezuela, which has a low measles vaccination rate. chicago's mayor says don't blame the migrants. >> they didn't bring illness. in fact, migrants are more vulnerable to the existing infectious diseases that we already have here. and coming up, we are going to speak with the prosecutor behind the conviction of james crumbley. how she hopes this win could help stop the next school shooter. >> this verdict does not bring back their children.

but it does mark a moment of accountability. and will hopefully be another step to address and end and prevent gun violence. the wayfair vibe at our place is western. my thing, darling? shine. gardening. some of us go for the dramatic. how didn't i know wayfair had vanities in tile? [ gasps ] this. wow! do you have any ottomans without legs. sure. you'll flip for the poof cart. in the wayborhood, there's a place for all of us. ♪ wayfair. every style. every home. ♪ (man) excuse me, would you mind taking a picture of us? (tony) oh, no problem. (man) thanks. (tony) yes, problem. you need verizon. get the new iphone 15 pro with tons of storage. so you can take all the pics! (vo) trade-in any iphone in any condition and get a new iphone 15 pro and an ipad and apple watch se all on us. only on verizon. (avo) kate made progress with her mental health... ...but her medication caused unintentional movements in her face, hands, and feet called tardive dyskinesia, or td.

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also convicted in an identical case, are the first parents of a school shooter to be held accountable in court for their child's actions. with me now is the prosecutor behind that verdict, karen mcdonald from oakland county, michigan. karen, it is really good to have you. congratulations on this win. i think there are a lot of parents out there watching there and wondering if this is going to have an effect on other parents who might be considering giving access to firearms to their children. >> well, i think that the impact is going to be on anyone who is grossly negligent when, with a firearm, or actually any deadly weapon, and has reason to know that it's foreseeable that they might harm somebody with it. you know, the standard, the standard is very low in terms of what we legally require parents

to do, and it is just ordinary care, and that's in the mind of a reasonable person, so in order to find that any parent is grossly negligent, and it would have to be, first of all, causing a death, and second, very egregious facts like these. so the slippery slope argument really is not persuasive, because we really don't see this kind of egregiousness when something was so foreseeable and easily preventible. >> i know you answered that question but that is not exactly what i was intending with, that i think there are parents out there, that are looking at it hopefully, and saying my kids won't be the victim of a mass shooting because they're being more parents out there who will think twice of giving their kids a gun. >> oh, then absolutely. i absolutely agree with that. and you know, that should be a basic assumption that we have.

but that is imperative, and one of the striking things about this incident and all of the incidents we have like this is what has created it is parents who are worried that they're doing the wrong thing when they're dropping their kids off at school, because they're not safe, and we -- and that in my mind was why the case was so strong. what are we as a society or a community if we do not require just basic ordinary care, and hold people to their duty to, that they owe to their other, to these other kids in the school. so i absolutely agree with you. >> do you think this creates a precedent? >> yes, i guess i would just go back to my earlier answer, you know, it could. i definitely wasn't really

discussing or thinking about, is this the first time, when we made this decision to charge, i mean i was the one that made the final call, because you know, the first information we got was just like those of anyone else watching the news, we saw the posts and the bragging about buying a weapon and giving it to him as a kid's gift and that led to more questions and the school meeting that morning and what was drawn on the worksheet, these things are just so egregious, you know, i guess my hope is that it will set a precedent of people asking the questions, because i don't think we ask it enough, and caring more about where did that gun come from, because as a prosecutor, i was absolutely interested in that, but as a mother, i was -- i mean all of us, where something like this

happens, where does this gun come from and how did he get it. those are just basic things that we should be asking. >> maybe a precedent for a standard of care both for the firearms and for the mental well-being of their kids. can you tell me how the parents of the victims are feeling today, the ones who lost their children? >> you know, it was a very emotional evening, but it has been an emotional two and a half years. i mean i met the parents of those four kids, in the absolute worst conditions possible, and the worst place, and the darkest hour of their lives, and i have been with them on this journey to the extent that i could be for the last two and a half years, as well as my co-counsel mark, and there have been some tragic moments in having to sit

with somebody who is, you know, more and more -- as more and more facts are revealnd and even as you talk to them, even with each trial, they learn something new and you just never -- it never eases the pain. and so i did -- there was a sigh of relief, and we can't bring those kids back, and we can't take that pain away, but at least we brought them that. >> and hopefully at least this can be perhaps a way to save other kids' lives, perhaps a parent out there thinking twice, being a little bit more cautious, you can't stop everything from happening, but maybe it could stop some, that's better than nothing. >> so true. the number one cause of death for children in this country and it can't be solve bid one or three prosecutions, or even just focusing just on access to guns, which is critical, but we need to approach it like a public health crisis, which is what it

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