slot. i'll be joined by the prize winning journalist nikole hannah jones, where she exposes the conservative movement to roll back and even reverse racial progress in america. and when i visited gaza in 2019, i first met this woman, a remarkable young entrepreneur who developed compact solar chargers to help gazans cope with routine power outages. the family has endured devastating losses since then. she and her brother, kamal, made it out of gaza. they will join me live right here on this set tomorrow. however, before that, we have something amazing for you right now, a special edition of the trump indictments, co-hosted by andrew weissman and melissa murray starts now. good evening and welcome to a special hour devoted to the

trump indictments. i'm melissa murray. >> i'm andrew weissman. >> we are both nyu law professors, nbc legal analysts, now the co-authors of the new york times best selling book, the trump indictments. the hist forurge charging documents with commentary. donald trump is charged with 88 felony counts in four different jurisdictions. in this hour, we will cover the latest developments in donald trump's criminal cases starting with fulton county, georgia today. >> and we will also zoom out and reflect on whether the american justice system has so far proven whether to meet the challenges as we write in our book. the former president's attempt to politicize are corrupt, not only our elections, but the rule of law. january 6 committee member will join us. and later in the hour, we had flip the script. and ask an anchor the important questions. chris hayes will join us to weigh in on the media's role in the event that voters

ultimately get to render a verdict on donald trump before a jury does. but the breaking news tonight will come out of fulton county, georgia, where fannie lewis learned she will not be disqualified from her election interference persecution against donald trump. the case had been imperilled after one of donald trump's co- defendants alleged an improper romantic relationship. after a multi-day hearing last month that saw both willis and wade take the stand to defend themselves, fulton county judge issued his decision today in a 23-page order. and the judge had harsh words for willis and wade, writing that the prosecution is encumbered by an appearance of impropriety. and because it the concerns of

public prosecutors. even if the romantic relationship began after wade's initial contract in 2021, the district attorney chose to continue supervising and paying wade while maintaining such a relationship. she further allowed the regular and loose exchange of money between them without any exact or verifiable measure of reconciliation. despite this stinging assessment of willis' judgment, ultimately concluded that "the defendant's failed to meet their burden of proving that the district attorney acquired an actual conflict of interest in this case through her personal relationship and recurring travels with her lead prosecutor. the other alleged grounds for disqualification including forensic misconduct are also denied." however, the established record now highlights a significant appearance of impropriety that infects the current structure of the prosecution team, an appearance that must be removed through the state's selection of one of two options. nathan wade exercised one of those options this afternoon

when he tendered his resignation. >> so joining us now, we have melissa redman, a former fulton county georgia deputy attorney and a professor at the university of georgia school of law. also with us is amy lee copeland and a former federal prosecutor. welcome. >> thank you. thanks for having me. >> good evening. >> so amy, let's start with what should we expect next? i was reading this decision, and i was left with trying to understand one side or another going to appeal. the judge seemed to invite all sorts of ethic inquiry with a litany of various places that people could go to complain about what they could alleged happened here. and then the issue of is fannie going to stay as the main supervisor of this case or some option where she could give a deputy to oversee. is this the last that we're going to hear from this or the beginning of the saga? >> i think it is a little bit

of both, andrew. first of all to appeal a decision like this in georgia requires jumping through a number of hoops. the judge would have to issue an immediate certificate of review and they would have to take the case. you saw where the judge issued a certificate of immediate review on the dismissal of those six counts on the particular question. he did not make the offer on this order. it is unlikely that he will issue this certificate and there is likely an appeal although they would try. delaying the case significantly. in terms of going forward, i don't think the d.a. is going to roll up their sleeves and continue onward. she has a deep bench, you know, 10, 11 people will sign off on pleadings. it's a large office, and they are close to 200 district attorneys in the office. she has people she could look to. whether she remains the public face of the prosecution or not is up to her, although i suspect she will. rico is the special thing.

she's prosecuted these cases, and she will sitly go forward and understanding that those were harsh words, where i'm sure they will heave them and keep moving forward. >> so melissa, these were really stinging words from judge, a true public scolding if you will. did he go beyond in calling out the two prosecutors for their relationship, given that he ultimately found there was no actual conflict of interest here? >> i do believe he went a bit far. i think because in his ruling, the first thing he says is that it was evident that the district attorney did absolutely nothing to warrant a belief that she's prosecuting this case, pursuing this case, extending the litigation of this case for any reason other than what her duty requires her to do, that she has no personal interest in the litigation of this case. so then moving on when he

starts discussing the appearance of impropriety, while he finds whatever appearance there may have been that they did not conclusively prove would not warrant a disqualification. and they could believe if he stays on the case that perhaps they could continue to be a belief of a financial interest that he found it to warrant requiring waste removal from the case. so i think he's kind of playing both sides, and i think a lot of the language is unnecessary. but ultimately i think as harsh as the words he would use to describe her, the unprofessional conduct as he would describe in the testimony. the thing that was key to me and that the defendants alleged that she had a personal interest in the case that produced no evidence that it was, in fact, the case. that's what we should focus on.

>> can i follow up on this? it's true. it seems like it was a scolding. does that prime any jury pool to essentially disregard maybe discredit the things that fani willis puts before them as she goes towards to prosecute this case? has he primed the jury pool to be aware of this d.a. as she goes forward? >> i think that remains to be seen though. two things that would impact that. one, how far away we are from jury selection and how many things will play out. there are many more motions to be heard, many more hearings, all on youtube for everyone to see. how much of this will the judge allow to be presented to the jury? having found that they were not prejudice by any of the allegations that there is no personal interest in the litigation of this case. i don't see how it is relevant

for any questions to be posed to the jury about what they believe the nature of this relationship was, when it started. all those things that are in dispute that he would talk about in the appearance of the section. i don't see how that is relevant to question the jury about. again, we are very far from jury selection, so we'll see what changes when we get there. >> would you agree with that and that melissa raises, we're far from jury selection. what do you think? when should the trial happen? and that is what even is wondering what does this mean? >> sure, we're going to get a pretty idea about what they think about the d.a. in may. she is up for re-election. she qualified. the order came out after the qualification period. you know, we will see if she gets elected. i think she will and she has a lot of popular support within

the county. number two, how far out are we? georgia's conflict rules will look to what other cases have been said. this d.a. says she needs a 30-day runway and that's it. right now the new york case looks like it is set to go some time in april. and the former president and the classified documents case actually affirmatively asked for a trial setting in august and september after insisting it couldn't be tried until after the election. so you know, there is a shot. if she could jump in this summer, if she could get that trial date set, she could go for it. but it will remain to be seen. we are still seven months away from the election and that is going to be here before we know it unfortunately. >> melissa red monday, amy lee copeland, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. good night. coming up, a former trump aid could be headed to prison next week. and contrary to what donald

trump says. prosecuting, convicting, even the former leaders accused of serious crimes, wait for it, totally normal and just. at least in other advanced democracies. so is america just bad at this? we'll discuss with congressman jamie roskin next when the trump indictments occur. wondering when it would pop up next was stressful doing a number on my insides. but then i found out about velsipity a new once-daily pill, not a steroid or biologic, for adults with moderate to severe uc. velsipity can help calm the chaos of uc — it quickly treats flares providing a chance for lasting steroid-free remission. don't take velsipity if you've had a heart attack, chest pain, stroke or ministroke, heart failure in the last 6 months, irregular or abnormal heartbeat. velsipity may cause serious side effects including infections that can be fatal, ann annli

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a former trump white house adviser is now heading to prison, while donald trump so far is successfully delaying his own day of reckoning. the dc circuit court of appeals ruled yesterday that trump trade adviser, peter navarro, must report to prison on tuesday after being convicted of contempt of congress, a subpoena from the january 6 committee. peter navarro peeled that decision today to the supreme court, whose justices, of course, include clarence thomas, whose wife was, wait

for it, at donald trump's rally, overturning the election. donald trump repeatedly says it is unprecedented to indict a former president, and he's right. it is unprecedented. but it is also unprecedented is trump's conduct, his alleged crimes against the people he was elected to serve. those two are unprecedented. at least in the united states. as we point out in our book, recent history provides several examples of other advanced democracies that have criminally prosecuted, convicted, even imprisoned its former leaders. france has prosecuted two former presidents and one prime minister for corruption. last month, an appeal's court upheld the guilty verdict for former french president, for illegally financing his 2012 presidential campaign. he was sentenced to six months in prison, but he remains free on appeal. italian prime minister was also convicted in 2012 of tax fraud.

false accounting and embezzlement, and sentenced to a ban on holding elective office. he also received prison time although because of his advanced age, he was 76 at the time. he was exempted from actually being in prison. former israeli prime minister served 16 months of a 27-month prison sentence after being convicted of fraud, corruption, and obstruction of justice. and in argentina, christina fernandez was as we discussed in our book, not simply convicted in december of 2022 of corruption for awarding public contracts during her presidency. she was also sentenced to six years in jail, and disqualified from holding further public office. and down in brazil, trump's buddy has also been barred from running for future office. for eight years after he refused to concede his lost election and his supporters then attack congress. sounds familiar. other big news today, mike

pence who defied january trump after he refused to concede that he will not endorse trump in 2024. the first question that we would have for congressman jamie raskin when we spoke to him earlier today. >> it should come as no surprise that i will not be endorsing donald trump this year that there were profound differences between me and president trump on a range of issues. not just our difference on our constitutional duties that i exercise on january 6. donald trump is pursuing and articulating an agenda that is at odds with the conservative agenda that we governed on during our four years. that is why i cannot in good conscience endorse donald trump in this campaign. >> turning us now is the the democratic congressman, a member of the january 6 select committee and served as a lead impeachment manager in the

second impeachment trial of donald trump. welcome. >> thanks for having me. >> so we have some breaking news today because the vice president for the former president announced that he would not be endorsing donald trump, which itself is kind of amazing. maybe it's not surprising given what hutchison wrote about in her book enough, which is they're calling for the president to be hanged. the president is okay with it. he doesn't want to do anything. he doesn't think they're doing anything wrong. he thinks mike is a traitor. this is crazy. we need to be doing something more. so congressman, as a lawyer and somebody who is steeped in american legal systems, and sort of how we are doing. how do you think we're doing compared to other countries

that have managed to hold political leaders? and we don't seem to be able to do that. he's not going to endorse him, and we haven't been able to bring him to trial. >> well, we're still in the middle of the fight obviously. i'm hoping that a year from now we'll be able to look back on it, acknowledge our institutions were resilient enough and our people fought hard enough to repel the minutes within, but it does feel strange that donald trump is still floating as a candidate when his own vice president refuses to endorse him. simply because donald trump sent a violent insurrectionist mob chanting hang mike pence into the capital when we were

trying to accomplish the peaceful of power. when you're in the middle of one of these struggles anywhere, but yeah, certainly disturbing. beating him by more than seven million votes and commanding the majority of americans have to sell the anti-choice, anti- environment, anti-union program. the problem is that they've got all these democratic devices that they are able to use to keep themselves in the running like tactics, gender mannedderring of the state and federal districts, corporate dark money, so on. so it is a race between the

will of the majority, which is clearly on the side of democracy and freedom in every case verses their ability to manipulate. >> representative raskin, you mentioned a number of antidemocratic crisis being used right now. some might argue it is being used in a way that is anti- democratic. the recent case where the supreme court invalidated the qualification of donald trump. you referred charges from congress to the doj. the special counsel didn't actually charge insurrection. if insurrection would have been charged, would that have been a federal charge designed to implement the guarantees of the 14th amendment, perhaps the supreme court would have found some room going forward to allow congress to have spoken

on the question of whether donald trump should be disqualified? >> well congress did speak. we voted in congress to impeach donald trump for the constitution. we took it over the senate and they voted 57-43 in the most sweeping bipartisan vote in the impeachment trial in the senate to convict. although he beat the spread by ten votes because you've got to convict by two-thirds, but you have the majority establishing as a legislative fact that donald trump did it. participating in the insurrection. i don't think there is any magic word that could have been used by congress or that could have taken place. they clearly wanted to punt on

the section three of the issue and they punted all the way down the field over to congress saying it is really up to congress to decide. although every other part is self-executing. you can just go to the court and sue. you don't need to be suing under the statute passed by congress under section five. we just said it's the same thing under section three. if you violated your oath of office by engaging in insurrection, you could never hold office again. yet this court of originalist was staring right at the meaning and the purposes of section 13 of the 14th amendment. there is nothing they could do and congress has to act knowing the republican will retain this

slender majority, but still the majority in the house. so mike johnston is not going to be interested in doing thing, but still, we've got to legislate to put that mechanism in place to deal with office holders who become insurrectionists, trying to overthrow our system of government. >> congressman, speaking of dealing with people who are sort of enablers, seeking to overthrow our system of government. you mentioned that there was a lot of people who joined you. and day in and day out, what is it like to be serving with people who were not in that camp, who are supporting and enabling the not counting votes, enabling what's going on now. one, how does it feel? two is there anything that could be done in either parts of congress to deal with that problem, people who would take an oath of office and don't

seem to be complying with it? >> yeah, it's like -- it's like we've been watching our gop colleagues sleepwalking. it's just step by step, they accepted, unacceptable, intolerable things. beginning with things like oh, you know, you can grab women by their private parts or calling, you know, third world countries blank hole countries, or the muslim ban. and then each step they say i'll go along with this, i'll go along with that. one day they are just like people waking up on the basement floor asking how they got there. it's depressing. i had a lot more republican friends before. a lot of the ones who did not want to go along with the

authoritarianism and the putin worship got out and they left. so it is really just a handful left who i feel i can engage with in a common political surprise because a lot of them are willing to go with donald trump and attack the outside. and that's why i feel with liz cheney and mitt romney, the ones who were willing to stand up for the constitution, we have to hold close to those people. when you look at the history of fascism, it is very hard to beat a fascist or authoritarian movement with one political party. you need to unite people across the political spectrum. so we have to be acting in convert as much as we can with the lincoln project and the moderate republicans, the independence who have had enough. every day i hear from people like that, so we just have to

keep building our ranks and not being sectarian in how we approach this. >> congressman, thank you so much for joining us and for your words. >> i appreciate it. great being with you guys. coming up, big news today regarding donald trump's trial date for his first criminal trial in manhattan. that's next when the trump indictments continues. it's fineeeeeeee! [splash] before advil: advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action. i'm starting to think this was a bad idea. what! we could find a better gift on etsy's new gift mode. oh! can i see that? ♪ happy birthday... ♪ it's a people cake! don't panic. gift easy with gift mode, new on etsy. for moderate to severe crohn's disease skyrizi is the first il-23 inhibitor that can deliver remission

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welcome back to our special hour on the trump indictments. well monday, march 25 was suppose to be the first day of jury selection in donald trump's criminal trial for business fraud related to his efforts to pay off adult film star, stormy daniels during the 2016 presidential election. >> but today the judge has agreed to delay the start of the trial for 30 days. postponing it until mid april. after it was revealed that the southern district of new york had failed to produce tens of thousands of pages of documents to the defense. all of those documents have now been turned over. and the judge has set a hearing on these discovery issues for march 25. and in doing so he said, "the court will set the new trial date, if necessary, when it rules on the defendant's motion following the hearing." of course, the trump player said in their filing today that the delay of the trial should not, "obscure the need to dismiss the indictment as a whole."

and also today manhattan prosecutors asked the judge to deny trump's motion to delay the trial until after the united states supreme court rules on immunity. and they say, "defendants immunity is untimely and can be rejected on this stage on that basis alone. providing no valid reasons for waiting until a mere 2.5 weeks before trial, for the immunity argument when he's long been aware of the defense." andrew, i have so many questions. first of all, what on earth is going on in the southern district of new york? how long does it take you to produce documents in an actual criminal trial? >> and what is going on? that is the polite version. >> you know what i'm actually thinking. >> yes, i do. i'm pretty sure that alvin bragg and jamie williams, that they will have that conversation. let me just describe first the legal issue that is before the judge and why he would have a hearing on the 25th, the day

he'll have a hearing. there is a relatively new law in new york state, requiring them to turn over all of these defense documents in a very timely way. it is very pro defense, but in a good way. there is a sanction if the d.a. does not do that, and that can include dismissing the case. >> so this trial or i'm sorry, this hearing is going to be about whether or not that happened and whether this case should be dismissed? it is likely to be dismissed that it is bragg's fault? it doesn't seem like it's his had fault. >> it is likely. but step number one, is there anything that is bragg's fault? and even though there will be a discussion of like this first documents, the second documents. >> a lot. >> yeah, it will be the war fair. >> stop it. >> okay, stop. but what is going to happen is the d.a. as he has written so far is he is saying, he asked for these documents from the southern district of new york, wait for

it, over a year ago. so the thing that i cannot answer is what in god's green earth is happening. so that is really the issue is whose fault is it? i doubt that's the case, but the southern district of new york might look very bad under this. i have a question for you. it has to do with the immunity question you raised. >> also a delayed situation. >> exactly. and what in god's green earth is happening, which is i don't understand the delay in the supreme court. so you have the government saying i want this to be decided quickly. the public has a right to a speedy trial. i want to get to trial and so one way or another, there is a decision. you would think if donald trump is saying i'm immuned, i shouldn't suffer the criminal case. i don't want to have a gag

order. but he would want this decided on that issue, not the child day, but the immunity day issue and that's not what's happening. what's going on with your supreme court? >> why is the supreme court moving at a pace? and to answer that, i have brought in some reserves. joining me now is my extraordinary cohost. university of michigan law professor and university of pennsylvania law professor, kate shaw. welcome, ladies. leah, i'll go straight to you. what on earth is going on with your boys? >> i think they are the best co- council that they have ever had because they have just given him with a he wants most, which is to delay the trial. what they did is they sat on his petition for applications to stave the dc district solution. and before deciding they were going to take up the case. then they scheduled the case for two months after that, but not until the very end of the term, at end of april. that has just added on a ton of

time for the delay and they are giving him what he wants, which is risking no trial. >> and were you surprised in all that there was a surprise on the concurrence or the note or some signal from any of the justices who may have been less sympathetic to that stance that we would get and what they have set out, that some signal, or because they bartered that for the schedule that we currently have? >> and i do think that the april 25 hearing date is probably the result of compromise and negotiation that was happening behind the scenes. i mean i'm sure some of the justices were appalled at the date, end of april, you know, two months after the decision to act on this application. and you know, really getting up against impossibility when it comes to pre-trial proceedings and then an actual trial. the justices are acutely aware of what it takes to get a case to trial when the case has been on hold since december.

so i'm sure there was some unhappiness. but i have to imagine there was some justices that wanted to delay even further, maybe into next term, which is what trump was asking for. so this did feel like a compromise. and it could still be, if the justices rule quickly after the april 25 arguments and if they do, we could still be on track for a trial. but that's the big question that obviously we won't know until they hear the case argued. >> could i follow up with that? there is another case that is being argued the same week as the immunity question, and it's going to be believed on monday, fisher verses united states. and there it is a case brought by rank and file january 6 defendant who argues the statute under which he was charged was not intended to be used in a situation like january 6, and incidentally, this is the same statute that they have charged donald trump under in the january 6 election interference case. is there a relationship or is a part of the explanation for why the court has delayed this to april 25, the fact they at least want to hear arguments on

the fisher case first? >> potentially. it's right that's the same statute that's an issue in a couple of charges that they brought up against trump for the january 6 events. and so, you know, they are not unrelated. in theory if the court finds there is a fatal flaw in the way those charges were brought in that case and in the trump case as well, then those charges will fall away. but it does not completely eliminate that case. either way they will have to and now having taken that up. to my mind, it is not a hard question. this argument for absolute immunity is baseless. they don't have any support on theory. and i expect ultimately they will reject it. of course, time is everything here. if they reject it, i'm not sure if we could get to trial by election day. >> instead of the up or down decision that they might do what they do in a related case, this is send it back for fact

finding about what san official act and what is not an official act, which to kate's point would make it absolutely clear that this is never going to trial before the election? >> that is a very real possibility. i mean when the dc circuit issued their decision, they basically assumed. well even assuming this falls under the definition of the act, as broad as it is, the immunity wouldn't cover it. it's possible the supreme court would say no, that's wrong. there is this definition that grants immunity. whether they covered that, they need to make additional findings to determine if that contract falls, adding an additional layer of briefings that the judge had already contemplated would possibly take 80 days. so that will make a trial before the election, i think really impossible. >> really grim stuff. leah litman and kate shaw, the best ladies in the business. and my new podcast cohost. thank you so much for joining us. coming up, it is possible that the american voters might

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2020 election. former attorney general eric holder posted, "there is no cavalry coming. no miracle, no saviors. in the end, we, the american people, not any of our institutions have to save our democracy by voting in defense of that democracy this fall. we are the cavalry. the responsibility is ours." >> general holder may appreciate this. all the charges against donald trump are unlikely to be resolved in a court of law. many of them are unlikely to even get to trial. ultimately it will be left to the individual voter to make a decision about these disputed facts when they go into the booth to cast their ballots. we're lawyers, so we are often focused on what happens inside the courtroom. and often judges and lawyers go to great lengths to keep what's going on in public from infecting what's happening in the courtroom. but here is may be the case that what might have happened in a courtroom will ultimately

shape how the public views these allegations, the defendant and his candidacy. which means that the media will play a huge role in how the public receives the information contained in these indictments and processes it in the lead up to the election. so how should the media approach that task? well tonight, we thought we would flip the script. usually we're in the guest chair, fielding legal questions from msnbc anchors. but tonight the tables have turned. >> thank god. >> yes. we will be talking to an msnbc anchor about how they plan to approach these issues. >> joining us now is chris hayes, host of all in with chris hayes on msnbc. hi, chris. >> it's fun to be here. >> so as melissa said, you know, when i was thinking about my prior life as a trial lawyer, i was on these high- profile matters where what we were focused on is how to deal with what was going on outside the courtroom and not letting

that affect what is happening inside the courtroom. and that is what judges do when they are trying to figure out how to screen out jurors a this can't be fair. we're in the reverse situation now. and one question we have for you, are you know custed too much on trials in what's happening in the courtroom? and is that? >> and no, i don't think it is. i would like to give you a view on this. i think the trial as a matter of sort of finding the fact in law, in the public domain has judged under the constitution due process protections in front of one's peers. really important to name that category on their own that cannot be replicated or substituted by the press. i honestly think that in some way that the press can't provide that only a trial can. and i mean this in both directions, and i keep saying this, but i truly mean this,

which is if a jury were to acquit donald trump, of these crimes, wherever they are, that is incredibly significant information for a vote in public. the same goes for conviction. but in both cases, that bit of information can't be replicated by the media. they just can't. >> so i completely agree with you that a jury trial is probably the best mechanism we have for resolving disputed questions. but i think it is very unlikely that we're going to get to a jury trial, that's for sure. so given the kind of misinformation and disinformation with which our current political played, how are we going to mediate these different levels of disputed facts so that when the voter goes to the voting booth that they are able to make an informed decision? how will the media approach that and sift through all of the disinformation? >> i don't know.

the media is a hard thing to talk about right now. because it is as fractured as i think i have experienced it in my adult life. the information environment in the year 2024 is almost as opaque has it has ever been. people getting news from algorithms. that are not, you know, transparent. anyone can figure out what rush limbaugh is saying. no one knows how many people are watching a given video on tiktok or reels. for me, here is the most important thing. and and the problem. the source of the world news is new. and without the focusing event of a trial, the things that he did are old. and yet, it shows that people's memory of that is fading and it is important to remind people

of the covid response of 2020. i worry that the news will be chasing new things as opposed to doing i think its civic duty to remind people what actually did happen. >> it seems odd the mechanism we have right now that you were sort of hoping will breakthrough and get people to think and focus is a criminal trial. because you know, what i used to do, this is about proof beyond a reasonable doubt about someone being locked up. how do you get facts out there and what somebody did and what really happened for whether someone should have the privilege of running for office? >> you're saying should it be a different standard? should you be locked up and should you be president shouldn't be the same standard. >> that's where i'm going. >> like, someone should be able to say i'm not going to vote

for you for president. i'm not sure if i could convict you in a court of law, but i suspect you have done enough bad things. >> it could be a preponderance of the evidence standard. >> voters can make up their mind however they want. but yes. it is strange that is the situation we find ourselves in particularly when you look at the january 6th committee's report. this is a quite detailed process brought forth to the public in a way that was just news report and not quite a full trial, but an official proceeding with sworn testimony that said hey look, this is the story. >> there are two different questions. should donald trump lose his liberty or the election. is it really the job of the public to sift through the first question and instead, should we have allowed the public to focus on the second one having an impeachment trial that made sense and was a real

proceeding where we didn't have this partisan factions but we actually got to the meat of an impeachment trial and made a decision on whether or not this person should serve in sauce. >> i thought the impeachment trial, phase as it was, presented a pretty good case. got more bipartisan votes than any impeachment trial in history. should he be locked up and deprived of his liberty is important signaling aspect in a political question. i think there is a sense, you have seen this with senator robert menendez and others. people can be indicted and still serve an office and do a lot of things. a conviction means something different to the public. it just does. and, i don't think it is crazy that would be the case. >> well, that's a lot for us to think about and lots for the media to do going forward. thank you, chris hayes, for joining us tonight. up next, we have something

to say about donald trump and defendants' rights. we will make the case for defendant trump. that's next. r defendant umtrp. that's next. it's time. yes, the time has come for a fresh approach to dog food. everyday, more dog people are deciding it's time to quit the kibble and feed their dogs fresh food from the farmer's dog. made by vets and delivered right to your door precisely portioned for your dog's needs.

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final thought. donald trump is charged with crimes and he is allowed to defend himself vigorously with competent counsel and all the tools afforded to him. those are the rights the constitution affords him and all of us. but trump to delay, appeal, seek a stay. that is something he is entitled to do. charges he can make in court. and that is a process that our system affords him and all of us. >> nevertheless, the fact of these delays suggests a defendant who is maybe not that

interested in having his day in court. the question of immunity is instructive on this. the united states supreme court has slated oral arguments on the immunity question for the end of april. as we have discussed, we don't actually know when they will render a decision. that should be a concern for all of us. any defendant who has raised a case of immunity will want to know if he will prevail. if he is immunized from criminal liability. even in circumstances like this one where the questions are unprecedented and questions are first impression. the fact that the supreme court and donald trump see no problem with the significant delay, that is the real question. but please. don't take our word for it. >> it is imperative if the public read the indictments for themselves. that donald trump seems in no hurry. and we hope that you will take the time to consider the ch