conspiracy world are more potent than the press intrusion you have fought against? >> no, i think it was more dangerous back in the day. >> do you worry about what happened to the truth? >> i do worry about that. >> reporter: the next time we'll see prince william is tomorrow morning at an event. we'll by listening close will. just all so interesting. thank you very much, molly hunter. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in washington, d.c. i'm michael steele in for nicolle wallace. if we know anything about the former president, he does not like as to part with his

money. he has a long history of allegedly not paying officials where trump holds he rallies. to quote "wall street journal," he's left a trail of unpaid bills in his wake, but there's just some you can't weasel out, at least without posting a massive bond first. that's a lesson donald trump is learning the hard way, when it comes to the $464 million judgment in the civil fraud case brought by tish james. with a deadline looming, today trump's lawyers said it's not going to happen. they claim are feigneding insurmount appear difficulties, calling it a, quote, practical impossibility to get a bond for that amount, says trump went to

four brokers, and everybody turned him down. it's a scenario new york attorney general tish james saw coming, and she's absolutely clear on what she's prepared to do if and when trump comes up empty. >> if he does not have funds to pay off the judgment, then we will seek, you know, a judgment enforcement mechanisms in court, and we will have the judge to seize his assets. we are prepared to make sure the judgment is paid. i look at 40 wall street each and every day. >> boom. that is where we start today with "new york times" investigative reporter and msnbc contributor suzanne craig, and andrew wiseman, and former senator and co-host of msnbc's

"how to win 2024" podcast, claire mccaskill. i would like you to walk us through why he needed to post this in the first place. >> the way it works, if you have a judgment against you in a court of law, you're excited to appeal it, but within 30 days, that judgment goes into effect so that the plaintiff can be made whole. if you want to avoid that going into effect, you can post with the court either the full amount of money or some kind of bond that a company can give you, and it's a way of saying that money is there if you lose your

appeal, so that the plaintiffs are not bearing the risk that the money will not be there. it's just a normal mechanism to make sure the plaintiffs are not the ones that holdle risk here, because they won. so the defendant has to put the money up, and then they go about their appeal. if they don't, you get to enforce the judgment right now, if it turns out you win the appeal, the money gets returned to you, but if you haven't put the money up, the plaintiff gets to try to enforce the judgment against any and all unencumbered assets. any assets their owned free and clear -- real estate, stocks, cash, debts that you're owed, income that's coming into -- all of that is on the table. there's lots and lots of mechanisms to enforce tao, include deposition, court proceedings, the court can

actually freeze assets. so this is a way of making sure the plaintiff is not the one left holding the back. here, the plaintiffs are new yorkers owed this $464 million. >> so, andrew, just to follow up, i want to play a bit of what tish james had to say about all of this. let's take a listen. >> financial frauds are not victimless crimes. he engaged in a massive amount of fraud. it wasn't just a simple mistake. the variations were wildly page rated, and the extent of the fraud was stagger. >> the fact she wanted to make clear this is not a victimless claim, which is something that the trump team was trying to put out there. regardless of that, she sounds very serious. how close are we, do you think to actually seeing her and law

enforcement putting padlocks on the doors of trump tower? >> first on the issue of victimless, just remember, this sum of money is the amount of money that the judge determined donald trump illicitly obtained through fraud. in other words, this is the profit he has to disgorge that he got,s on if he had stolen money from a bank and had the $464 million, you've got to give it back. how is it that they're going to do it? are they going to do it quickly? absolutely. just put yourself in the shoes of a public official, something there to protect the public interest on the very day this judgment goes into effect, they're going to feel that burden of making sure that they are not sort of sleep on the rights of the new york state taxpayers. you're going to see this, you

know -- i hate to use the term imminently, but i would expect on day one, you will see enforcement actions. to back up to your fear, my big-picture reaction to this is somewhere donald trump must be lying. he's been saying he is worth billions, and now he's telling the court he can't get a bond, so he's either misrepresenting something to the court or misrepresenting something to the public. in the enforcement proceedings, he is going to be asked, and a lot of people will be asked, who worked for him, where all the money is, and we're going to soon find out a lot more if he doesn't get a bond, about where his assets are, including how he was able to obtained a $ 95 million bond in the e. jean carroll case. all of that could come tumbling down in a matter of days.

>> so, andrew picks up on a lot of important points, particularly is he lying to the court or lying to the public? he was asked about it during a town hall last month on fox. let's take a listen. >> now, in this new york civil fraud case, the june ruled against you for almost half a billion dollars plus interest that runs every day, when i first read it, it was like $87,000 a day. how do you put up that money? even if you appeal, you have to put up escrow money? >> it's a form of navalny, a form of communism or fascism. >> this has nothing to do with the bond. as you can see it hits him both in the wallet and ego.

the real estate pot folio is his pride and joy. how much is this getting under his skin? >> right. you can hear the clock ticking very loudly. he's now got a matter of days to come up with this. from today's filing he does have assets worth a lot, so why can't he come up with the money? we know in the e. jean carroll case, he did post the bond, almost $100 million, and we can see behind it he put up assets in an account he had at charles schwab. what came just into focus for me today when i was reading the filing is these companies that he's going to, he's been to

several, they want cash. they're very clear they done want real estate. these are not companies in the business of dealing with real estate. i think where donald trump is having problems here is coming up with what looks like from the filings, more than $500 million bond. he has to put up more than the actual amount and then there's fees involved. that's what this is coming down to. he does not have that much cab on hand. we'll see in the next week -- this is a request, so he wants another hearing on this, or never counseled donald trump out, if he can find it in the next week, but right now he's saying to the court, not only we can't, but the companies that we're talking to don't even -- no one has ever posted something of this size to a private company. it really comes down to how much cash he has on hand. >> what i find very interesting,

claire, is that the man who beat his chest and bragged about how wealthy he and how much cash he's got and what he can do with it is exposed. he's in and out run his mouth and his mouth has caught up with the things he's said. but here in this case you have spoke semblance of holding donald trump accountable. is that a fair assessment? or going too far in explaining what all of this means at this moment? >> well, donald trump, hello, welcome to the rule of law. you've avoided it all of your life. you refused to pay people, you litigate, and then you settle. that's your business model. if you need to, you declare bankruptcy and really screw people out of your money. this is a whole new thing for him. he's caught between what he said and what the reality is. here is the interesting part of

it. andrew made the point. we need to underline it, this is norm at. this is standard operating procedure when you have a judgment against you. you have to put up bond if you're going to appeal. you know why that happened? because people like donald trump tried to aid void paying, they tried to hide their money, tried to park it overseas, and tried to keep plaintiffs from getting their money. and in this instance, the plaintiff is the state of new york. all of this is happens back people like donald trump don't want to pay their debts. now he's going to have to sit with this, and frankly, the idea that no one will take his real estate as collateral will tell you something about whether or not he overvalued his real estate or not. >> sue, because donald trump

were you know, we're talking about, does he have the possibility that he's bluffing here? do we run the risk of having him -- i think claire touched on some aspects of this, having cash and assets available that aren't well known or understood. are there ways in which this enforcement can get everything? is there an accounting in this process that donald trump has to go through? how does that work? >> you know, this is all new territory for all of us. i don't want to saying anything affirmative. we may see if he can come with it. what is backing it. there's a monitor over the company, and i can't understate how important that is. the monitor is watching everything. you know, he may still have an eight up his sleeve.

when i saw this filing today, i did think -- clearly he's having trouble, but it's also a signal to a company that may want to come forward and do the bond that they haven't found out. chubb is the company that handled the e. jean carroll bond for the trumps. they declined to do this one, they're not seeing the cash, so they have declined. none of the companies seem to want real estate. i think when we first started talking about, we thought maybe he could put up an asset, but he's going to have to sell an asset quickly. that looks like a fire sale to me. i think they're hoping for the courts to give them some relief. >> claire, harry litman called this case, quote, a body blow to

trump. titans of commerce don't tend to cough up huge judgments or ask anyone's permission to write a check. the extent to which the trump brand has been propped up by lies has always been up to question. now it's propped up by even less. claire, putting the money piece aside, could you see this as something that's a bit embarrassing? just a little bit embarrassing? because it flying into the face of this mogul image. how is that. >> it doesn't take a professional psychologist or psychiatrist to say with some uncertainly this is a deeply insecure man. he's spent his whole life trying to prove to everyone he is better.

whether it's gold on his toilets, or ostentacious. this is interesting, because the emperor wears no clothes. he doesn't have enough cash assets to secure an appeal on bond. he's had more businesses fail than most people would ever dream of even starting in his lifetime. so many ventures that have gone under and people left in his wake with no money, but now he's in a court filing say, hey, nobody trusts me to put much a bond. my real estate is not available enough or not liquid enough or i don't have enough cash. his lawyers are saying that to the world today.

he's reverting to more and more dangerous language on the campaign trail, which we will talk about later, but i think it's playing with his head. >> andrew will be back in the next hour. we'll talk to him about paul manafort. he reportedly could be working for trump again. andrew knows a thing on two. we'll get into that and more, coming up a bit later. when we come back, more on the nearly half billion dollars penalty donald trump is unable to secure. one of the keys witnesses in that fraud trial, michael cohen will still le here. had cities shocks us, the former president calling the violence as patriots, who they're promising to free on day one if elected.

we'll look at the ex-president's continued effort to normalize political violence. and never-trump republicans are adding mike pence for former white house officials who say donald trump could be kept far away from 1600 pennsylvania avenue. all of those stories and more when "deadline: white house" continues, after this. e when "deadline: white house" continues, after this. a treatmr your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache.

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congress. today justice has been served. donald trump may have authored "the art of the deal" but he per effected the art of the steal. today, we are holding donald trump accountable. >> tish james did almost what no one else has done. mike acohen as testimony lit the fuse that grew into the civil fraud case mike 'cohen joins us, author of the "new york times"

best-selling books, as well as host of "mea culpa" podcast, and "political beatdown." i want to jump into this claim it's a practical impossibility to find someone to underwrite a bond that big. >> we are talking about half a billion. he's in the real estate industry. much of his assets are leveraged. let's not forget, if he sells the asset there's also a tax consequence that would be due. he has long-term capital gains. because it's new york, you also have city and state tax, so you're looking at effectively a

40% taxable rate. he also has on top of that mortgages attached. so state taxes, federal taxes come first, then followed by the mart, then whatever is left over would ultimately go to pay off the judgment or to repay the bond. that's why nobody wants it. he's right. it's effectively impossible. what does that tell you? it tells you that he's not nearly as rich as he sold himself to the american people, that he -- even at the trial he told the judge he had at least $400 million in cash. if that's true, post it, and if it's not true, major it could be a perjury charge. >> let's pick up on that point.

one of the things that trump's lawyers said in the filings is they went to nearly 30 bond providers, and every one of them was unwilling, to your point, to accept the real estate as collateral. if that's the case, then where does he get $454 million-plus and counting? he's still up against a wall, right? >> absolutely. you have bigger problems than that. as americans, we should be very concerned about where that money is coming from if it's coming from a company like chubb or federated, but what if hypotheyically it's coming from

qatar or a back-door channel from russia. that leaves a potential presidential candidate -- hear me on this -- it leaves a presidential candidate basically owing a foreign entity all at the expense of america's national security. this is no joke. donald trump is the most dangerous thing to our national security. >> this real estate portfolio is one of a lot of big pieces for him that are now subject to garnishment, if you will. what does it mean? what is going through hi mind,

to your point, that could potentially make him dangerous? is he looking how to back door cash, or using a relationship, which was why the goumts case cause so gnarly? what does that landscape for him look? and how is his mind processing all of this? >> he doesn't care where the money comes from. he's already shown documents to individuals over at mar a lago who did not have clearance to view them. i will tell you, making trump president was the absolute worst idea that ever was. right now, our national security is potentially at risk, not because of the documents we know he had, but more importantly because of the positioning that

he is in right now, as one of the leaders of one of our two political parties in this country. >> you raise an interesting point with how these pieces fit in. you also will possibly be speaking before congress on this matter. how are you assessing that and what that potentially may mean to either help donald trump using that time on the hill in a way against those -- tish james and those coming against him in this case. how are you assessing your role in some of this? >> look. i didn't ask to be a part of this. i was subpoenaed by seven different congressional committees. i have provided the testimony.

the testimony then led to more testimony. i didn't testify before the new york attorney general, i was wanted to, i was subpoenaed for that. i will also be testifying at the manhattan district attorney with the alvin bragg hush money case, because i am subpoenaed. if i am subpoenaed, i will do what i need to do, continue to provide the truthful information. if that ultimately holds donald trump accountable for his dirty deeds, so about it. >> the alvin bragg case has been postponed probably about a month. we know you can't speak about that case, since you're expected to take the stand, as you noted. are you confident that, like

tish james and the civil fraud case, that donald trump will be health accountable in that case as well? >> let me say, in 2018 when i sat before the house oversight committee with the late great elijah cummings, got rest his soul, all you can open is donald trump is a cheat and fraud. and ultimately will be health accountable. so far i believe he's been held accountable for all of these matters have made its way to a judge and courtroom. i believe the same thing will take place with the manhattan district attorney's case. all of these are on documentary evidence, not individuals. it makes no difference that are intent is to try to attack my credibility. the one thing they cannot attack are the documents, and the

documentary evidence that will be presented. >> michael cohen, thank you, man, for taking time with us this always. >> always good to see you, mike. >> you got it. donald trump is promising to free the violent insurrectionists. some reaction today from those at the front line of that day, next.

they continue to be a constant trauma for us literally every day, about it's physical or emotional injuries or both. >> i've been left with the psychological trauma and the anxiety of having survived. my children continue to deal with the trauma of nearly losing their dad that day. >> january 6th still sent over. i'm now receiving private counseling therapy for the persistent emotional trauma of that today. it was traumatic any of for the rest of us watching on tv that day, but for the brave men and women actually there on the front lines, one officer described it as medieval t they used bear spray, tasers and

flagpoles, anything else they could find, in an effort to interrupt the peaceful change of power. and then the man responsible for that opens up a really. >> please rise for the unfairly and horribly treated january 6th hostages. ♪ osay can you see ♪ by the dawn's early light ♪ ♪ so who proudly -- are you kidding me? hostages. wait, it doesn't stop there. here's what donald trump set moments later. >> you see the spirit from the hostages. that's what they are, hostages. they've been treated terribly, very unfairly. everybody knows that. we will be working on that soon.

the first day into office, we're going to save our country and work with the people to treat those unbelievable patriots -- and they were unbelievable patriots and are -- >> so let's be clear. the unbelievable patriots are in reality and in fact convicted felons, insurrectionists, put away because they took part in an attack on our democracy. now donald trump wants to set them free. joining our conversation is former congressman, dave jolley, and with me at the table, writer and editor for protect democracy, amanda carpenter. claire is back with us. amanda, let's talk about this, lay it on the table. he's praising people who quite honestly tried to interfere with our democracy by force, attacked police officers. how does this language impact

this country? how does it raise the threat level of violence to our democracy? >> let's be very clear about this. when he is glorifying the violence that these criminals engaged in, he's giving a green light for more of it. he's promising to pardon them first day in office. i want to bounce this off you, michael. i'm sure you, as a republican -- i get this a lot. why keep talking about january 6th? because he's talking about. he is the one keeping january 6th alive, by saluting these criminals at rallies. it's not just donald trump. everybody says don't take him out of the context. look at the context of this rally. it's a republican rally for a senate candidate. a governor known will, jimmen was there, a u.s. senator, when he says to stand up and salute the people who attacked their

capitol, they stand up too. there's a whole apparatus supporting this. >> the thing that strikes me about that moment, and moments like this in this campaign, is that it often reminds me of the photo of him, where he's saluting the north korean general form he's paid deference to anti-democratic forces out there. if he wins this election, what are the immediate concerns we should have about a guy who is saluting a foreign general, number one, bun brings so much of that anti-democratic passion that he has, because he is, at his core -- he's told us i want to be a dictator, authoritarian. what do we need to be concerned here? and what does it say that people aren't concerned about it? >> it's very hard. we're blessed as americans. we live in an exceptional dun.

we have not seen an authoritarian strain rise before. he's -- when he comes back to the white house. he's doing damage right now. he's a candidate for one of two parties. we only have two. when he's talking about sideling up to putin, he's signaling to the ukrainians -- we should be thankful that someone like mine pence said i'm walking away from this now. a lot more people with mike pence's ability to influence republicans need to come out now and explain there are consequences halls in real time. you don't have to weight for

november. when he goes to a rally and signals, i'm okay with political violence, people hear it, the militants -- he launched his campaign in waco, texas. that was a signal. this is a set piece of his speeches that he's been saying on message deliberately for well over a year. >> dave, i would like to pay for you a bit of mike pence responding. >> i think it's very unfortunate at a time that there are american hostages. they're being held in gaza, that the president or any other leaders who refer to people moving through our justice system as hostages. it's just unacceptable. i was there on january 6th. i have no doubt in my mind, margaret, that some people were caught up in the moment and that entered the capitol, and they're certainly entitled to due process of law for any

nonviolent activities that day, but the assault on police officers, ultimately an environment that claimed lives, is something that i think was tragic that day. i'll never diminish it. >> david, what does it take for the mike pences of the world to push out more on this? appeared quite honestly, finish the thought. >> that's right. >> is it enough to say, yeah, i'm not supporting donald trump. however, i am going to be supporting joe biden. help us create that lane, if you will, for these folks. >> what you just played is a disgusting anti-american moment, not just by donald trump, but all those who participated in it. mike pence called it out. he said he won't vote for donald trump, but as you pointed out, he didn't say he would vote for

joe biden. so a half credit to mike pence, i suppose. when i saw the video, i spoke immediately of mitch mcconnell. really, you're going to support the nominee? you've said you don't want to, but you're supporting donald trump? john thune? marco rubio? ted cruz? mike johnson? steve scalise? go down the lease. you own that disgusting anti-american moment that we just is a if you're supporting donald trump to be president again. we know how this ends. if donald trump ends, he has promised retribution. if he loses, he will refuse to concede. if he loses, we are likely going to be a use of force or violence. either way, should he at least lose, we would have the institutions in place to provide accountability for the results. if he wins, the whole nation is in trouble. that's why it matters for mike

pence to say, the answer is to vote joe biden. >> scott mcfearland said the comments came up for retire capital police sergeant tully. if we are hostages, who are we? it's like a dagger. republicans used to claim they were the party of law enforcement. what say you, claire? >> many times i have called out republican leaders failing to be leaders. this could have all been stopped long away and said publicly, what they say privately.

the president of the f.o.p., fraternal order of police, we need to hear from him. he's the leader of the organization that represents thousands of police officers across the country. can you imagine if a democrat took up and called people who were in prison for assaulting police officers hostages? can you imagine what would happen? i mean, the place would go nuts. republicans would absolutely lose their minds. so you have a republican nominee for president call people who assault police officers hostages, and the f.o.p. is silent. shame on them and all the women and men in blue who aren't standing up for the capitol police officers who fought hand-to-hand combat for their lives that day. >> claire, amanda, david, stick

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tariff on every single car that comes across the line, and you won't be able to sell those cars. if i get elected. if i don't get elected, it would be a bloodbath. that will be the least of it. it will be a bloodbath for the country. >> back with david, claire and amanda. starting with you, david, this bloodbath comments, he's in -- i don't buy it, because i think he meant more. what do you take away say that? >> look, i think he meant bloodbath. i think he meant there's going to be riots in the streets. let him get away with saying that's not what he meant. now explain your praise for adolf hitler. and explain the igniting the

violence on january 6th. explain your willingness to use violence in the streets when you saw protesters. because bloodbath is one of a thousand times of grievances against the united states and the spirit of the united states. i think it's clear what he meant by bloodbath. if he's trying to clean it up, that's an unusual moment for donald trump. >> amanda, bloodbath notwithstanding, the reality of it is regardless of what he meant he is prone to just use these words, incendiary words in his rhetoric. what do you think that means in terms of his ability to take back control? is that part of the strategy as you see it? or is there something else going on here? >> definitely. he rules through fear and intimidation. not only did he have that disgusting bloodbath comment but he also had another comment during that speech that if i don't win i think it will be the end of elections. well, what does that mean? what does that mean? i think part of the problem that we face in trying to cover trump and grapple with him is we

always interpret it through a political lens, trump versus biden. i think election officials and generally people across the country just need to look at what happened this weekend and that is a warning for protecting the security of the election coming up. i mean, election officials -- this is coming to a county near you. we had january 6th. and he's still organizing, still using this rhetoric. they're empowered. and so this is a time to organize and prepare every time you hear this kind of rhetoric. >> claire, we've got to fit in a quick break. i want to get your thoughts on the other side. we'll be right back. the other side we'll be right back.

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so trump says those bloodbath comments need context? well, here's some context from the biden campaign. >> now, if i don't get elected, it's going to be a bloodbath. and it's going to be a bloodbath for the country. >> jews will not replace us! >> but you also had people that were very fine people on both sides. >> are you willing to condemn white supremacists and militia groups -- >> proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> please rise for the horribly and unfairly treated january 6th hostages. >> there are a lot of commutations of january 6th defendants? >> yes. absolutely. >> can you tell your supporters now no matter what, no violence? >> it's going to be a bloodbath. >> claire? pretty good. >> yeah.

i think that's about all the context donald trump can handle. that's context. listen. and he went on in that speech on saturday to say that immigrants were animals, that they weren't people. i mean, sit on that for a minute. he wants to pardon people who beat up police officers, and he is calling for political violence. he trashes our country at every turn. and then he says immigrants aren't people? this isn't america. this isn't a guy who should be anywhere near the levers of power. i hope folks wake up, especially the leaders of the republican party. >> yeah. well, good luck with the waking up there because they seem to be all in on all things trump. david, amanda, and claire, thank you all. really much appreciated. coming up, all the ex-president's men and women are coming out against a trump second term. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts right after this quick break. e" starts righ this quick break and now i'm retired.

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the president and i have profound differences. many people think it's just over january 6th. and frankly, the fact that the president continues to insist that i had the right to overturn the election that day is a fundamental difference. the issue of fealty to the constitution is not a small matter, but it's not just that. i mean, the reason that i cannot in good conscience endorse donald trump this year also has to do with the fact that he is walking away not just from keeping faith with the constitution on that day but also, margaret, with a commitment to fiscal responsibility, a commitment to the sanctity of life, a commitment to american leadership in the world. >> hi again, everyone. it's 5:00 in washington, d.c. it's michael steele. in for nicolle wallace. add another one to the list.

another individual who worked alongside donald trump in the white house who cannot support him and warns of the danger the ex-president poses. it's common practice that when a person applies for a job the int vower asks for a list of references. he or she wants to hear a little about this applicant, what did this in previous situations and wants to hear from someone who witnessed them firsthand and what they thought. the firsthand witnesses to trump's previous experience as president are sending quite a signal. do not put this man back in office. pence is joining a remarkably large choir of former trump administration officials who have come out against him. a list that includes -- okay, settle in for this one. trump's former attorney general, two former defense secretaries. two of his chiefs of staff. two national security advisers. his first ambassador to the united nations. his former chairman of the joint chiefs. former secretaries of state. transportation and education.

two former press secretaries. a former communications director. a former deputy communications director. and a former aide to trump's chief of staff. uh-huh. keep in mind, their comments are not just, eh, he wasn't the best or he wasn't that great. they are seriously warning us that he is a threat to our national security and american democracy. like former chief of staff john kelly saying that trump is a person who admires autocrats and murderous dictators, a person that has nothing but contempt for our democratic institutions, our constitution and the rule of law. or former national security adviser h.r. mcmaster saying after january 6th that trump and other officials have repeatedly compromised our principles in pursuit of partisan advantage and personal gain. as friend of the show tim miller asks of those who will be voting for trump this time around, why do you think you know him better

than those who saw him up close? the bulwark reiterated the magnitude of pence's decision not to endorse his former running mate. quote, no american vice president has ever said that about his boss, is unfit to serve. it is the most devastating possible observation from the first -- from the most credible source in existence. pence's refusal to endorse trump should be part of the context of every single story about this campaign. and that is where we start this hour, with princeton university professor and political scholar eddie glaude. plus with me here at the table, opinion editor for the "washington post" and author of "prompt 2024," newsletter -- >> i signed up. >> and republican strategist mike murphy. all are msnbc political analysts. i want to begin with you, mike. do you agree with that assessment of pence not endorsing trump? and how big a deal is this right

now? >> well, it -- the problem for trump is every single serious person who worked for him is horrified at the idea he'd come back. the problem is in the current populist rage republican party they don't have as much swat as they would have back in the good old days when we were a serious grownup conservative party. the other problem is that joe biden's political strength is so weak right now, you know, we know from history that people want to fire the incumbent president, they put up with a really weak opponent sometimes. i'm glad to see it. these people are patriots. it is the collapse of the old vichy wing of the party that said we put up with him, we can kind of handle him. they're coming to their senses. but i don't think it's enough to necessarily stop him unless biden can have the political comeback he really needs. >> so i guess, alexi, the question for me with what pence has done, that particular

non-endorsement, what does that say for -- and it kind of touches on what mike was just talking about. for the nikki haley's out there and others who are kind of still deciding whether or not they want to make that leap forward. >> it certainly gives her more permission to do that. and that list you just read off is a compelling list and a growing list of officials who aren't just non-serious people who somehow ended up in congress, they're actually folks who know the threat as you mentioned that trump brings to national security and democracy. nikki haley again, i think, has to decide whether or not she is for the current republican party or for the country. there is no other way of looking at it. and i think while mike pence's non-endorsement is great what's difficult to understand i think or wrap my brain around is if we remember 2016 pence delivered the republican party to donald trump. the republican party is now donald trump's. so for those folks to sort of be the ones who are not endorsing him, i'm not sure that it's

ready to sort of penetrate the larger party because trump really kind of just took this party from pence, which again, he would not have had without mike pence. >> so eddie, this begs the question listening to both mike and alexi here. how many more calls from inside the house do you need? i mean, seriously. what else do you think it takes for people to understand exactly the point that alexi made, that this is not about necessarily i'm voting for joe biden, therefore i'm down with everything joe biden is doing. it literally is about i'm voting against extremism and for the country. that's the call from inside the house. what say you? >> well, i think you're absolutely right. the choice is very clear. it's either you vote for fascism or neo-fascism or you vote for this authoritarian figure or you vote for democracy. it's very clear. there's no in between here. i think it's really important for us to understand mike pence -- think about how mike

pence is polling among while evangelicals to get a sense of how influential he is in the party. and so i think part of what we have to do is to kind of really wrap our minds around what's motivating the base, mike. and it's not about whether or not donald trump is a threat to security. it's not about his competency. it's not about whether or not he's honest or he's going to be a convicted felon. it's really about the fundamental argument around who's country is this? that populist fervor is rooted in grievance, deep-seated fear, and trump seems to represent those grievances and fears and hatreds. and until those republicans, those d.c. republicans as mike murphy talked about respond to that, they're going to find themselves in some ways behind the 8 ball. >> so back in november, mike, trump's former chief of staff john kelly talked about the response, his comments about trump got. he said, "i came out and told people the awful things he said

about wounded soldiers, and it didn't have half a day's bounce." you had his attorney general bill barr come out and not a half a day's bounce. if anything, his numbers go up. it might even move the needle in the wrong direction. i think we're in a dangerous zone in our country. talk to me about that zone we find ourselves in right now. where does mike pence's comments land with voters? what did they hear when the guy that donald trump was obviously unconcerned about being harmed if not killed on january 6th says what he says, what's the public response and what does it mean? >> well, among trump's chunk of the vote, which is not a majority but it's enough to be competitive right now, there's no second-level thinking about this. it's tribal. the mathematical equation is i'm right, you're evil. and if the other side is evil you are a hero to oppose them

with any means. you can storm the capitol. you can shout lock her up. you can choose what you choose to believe. you can ignore credentialed smart people who know better than you, although that's dialed out, about what trump is really like behind closed doors. so in that kind of world you're either in the tribe or out. so they look and say heretic, you're wrong, lying, deep state, all that sort of stuff. we've kind of created this new psychology of politics where you just armor up. now, again, you've got, depending on the state, 1 out of 5, 1 out of 6 republicans that aren't that interested in trump. so there are cracks in it. but i just keep coming back to the point. until joe biden can politically get a little stronger trump's got a shot. it's all about, weirdly enough, each party is running weak candidates and with trump joe biden's got the one guy he can beat and with biden trump's got the one candidate even he might be able to beat. which is what makes it such a depressing election. but that's where we are. if there was a stronger dem,

these cuts would hurt more because then there would be more appeal there. people weren't just trying to fire the democrat and put him up with trump. which is what's happening on the republican side. >> so alexi, that leaves the people. right? you've got the two parties having put up the weakest candidates they can put up to take each other out. that leaves it squarely in the lap of the people. from what you're seeing and hearing out there as you travel around, what are the people saying about this race and what potential impact could january 6th, for example, still have? the current legal troubles and the delays in the court cases of donald trump. how are the people assessing and processing all of this? and then you layer on mike pence. and that litany, that litany of former trump officials who are like no, no, no mas, we can't do this again. >> i think to you are why point i don't know, what is it, like 35% of the republican electorate that trump has a really strong hold on. nikki haley won 2.9 million

votes in the primaries of republicans. 6 in 10 of those voters according to a fox news analysis said they will not vote for donald trump in november. so that means they could vote for biden, they could vote third party. they could stay home. they could split their ticket. there are a lot of things that voters have, looking toward november. january 6th to me seems like something that we only care about here in d.c. and democrats care about. and i don't want to be flippant because january 6th was a history-defining moment that is literally so insane that we're still talking about it, that trump and republicans try to cast it as just a normal day, that trump opens his rallies with the january 6th anthem, like that is so weird. it is weird. and not normal. but for some reason folks outside of d.c. i think don't totally see january 6th as the same sort of lightning rod that we see it as. though the democracy message that includes january 6th,

abortion, constitutional rights, those are things that resonate more with voters. i think focusing too much on january 6th would be sort of not the best idea for democrats to do when there's so much for trump to focus on. but that's just -- >> that's where we find ourselves right now. >> yeah. i think we care too much about january 6th relative to what comes up in focus groups, what comes up in polling. i mean, the last thing i'll say is even the folks who say like oh, it's a big deal in polling, it's a big deal if donald trump is charged, if he is charged joe biden only wins by like two percentage points in a head-to-head match-up with trump. and that's well within the margin of error. so while i would like to believe that people care, it doesn't seem like they do. >> the most depressing thing in polling is the whole challenge to democracy thing breaks even. because it's back to that tribalism. >> yes. >> where trump's got one magic bean here. people, even though they don't like him and they don't like biden, they perceive, perception being reality as you well know in politics, they perceive trump as being better to run the

economy by 12 to 15 points. you can't be joe biden in october and have that number. and that will be the battle in my view. that and motive in this election. >> eddie, weigh in on this part of it. because you do have some dynamics at play out there. for example, in his new book jim sciutto at cnn spoke with former trump officials and from those conversations he said former national security adviser john bolton told him that trump would hold up the tip of his sharpie pen and say, well, that's taiwan. see this resolute desk, that's china. his point, taiwan is too small to defend itself against chinese invasion and too small for the u.s. to care about. so you have donald trump sort of creating this worldview in this kind of imagery. you also then have what both alexi and mike are talking about happening domestically in terms of how something like january 6th is playing out with voters out there.

there's a lot hanging in the balance. how do you -- or how do you think we get it back in some semblance of balance? >> you know, i've been struggling to figure that one out, mike. to be honest with you, it seems to me it's not about just simply low information voters, it's about a kind of tribalism, it's about the deep divisions that define the country and how party identification, whether it's republican party or maga trump republicanism, right? kind of gets to core existential issues in some ways. but i do know this. i think it's important for that list of republicans that you began the segment with who say that donald trump shouldn't come close to the white house, they need to be active in keeping him out of the white house. it's not enough just to say it. they need to follow the liz cheney model. i can't believe i just said they need to follow the liz cheney model. i never imagined me saying that. >> it's a good model. >> the liz cheney model. yeah, they need to follow the liz cheney model. that doesn't just simply involve voting for joe biden.

it can involve as alexi said split ticket. it can involve leaving the presidential ballot blank. because the turnout is actually key to this election. can biden get his base out? will trump get more of his supporters out? and if these folks somehow help suppress the vote we can keep him out of the white house. but first they need to do more than just simply say keep him out of the white house. they need to act appropriate -- act accordingly to that view it seems to me. >> alexi, can they do that? can the biden campaign rev themselves up to do exactly what eddie just said? i think it's a critical part of this. where in the history of campaigns, i mean go all the way back to the beginning, the first presidential 1800, right? when have you seen cabinet officials and other officials in the administration come out and go keep this guy away from the office of the presidency? can the biden campaign make that message stick and resonate with those voters we were just talking about? >> i mean, i think certainly they can. and it's just a matter of how they can thread the needle. obviously the biden campaign is

smart enough to know they're not going to put all their chips on the table in march or whatever. i would imagine starting from the conventions this summer through november we will see all of the work that the biden campaign is doing between now and then to really wrangle those folks not just as maybe quiet supporters to rally their other folks, donors they can talk to who went to nikki haley who are now like i absolutely don't want to give my money to trump, i know that the biden folks will also be reaching out to them. so it's really they have a lot of time to do that. i don't think it makes sense to sort of come out now and do that because then trump has all this time to build them as rinos and -- >> he's going to bill them as rinos anyway, mike. >> exactly. >> i just think we need to -- because i want to put a finer point on it. nicolle said something very important i think that feeds into where i think you're going to go next. not to tell your answer before you give it. but you know, she talked about this large group of never trump republicans out there and the very important dynamics that are

occurring, these republicans who voted for trump in the past who are now sitting on the fence and could potentially lean and move into supporting or even doing something different. are there enough of them, number one? and how does the biden campaign actually move those folks? is it tapping into that body of folks out there from the administration? what is the strategy here? ? well, i think if you're the biden campaign, one, i wouldn't wait. i'd treat it like a monster movie, i'd get it now, cut off his head and bury it in another state. take no chances, full offense. i think you saw a little of that at the state of the union. it was good. it helped month of him forward. it also helps undo the age thing. he can still throw a pretty good haymaker, the old guy. helps him do it every day. as nar as how do you use these things, the key to the election is just like it was last time. suburban college educated voters. and they used to all be republican. now they're moving over to the democrats because they're offended by trump. simultaneously, trump does great with the white working class. not college educated.

so you've got to offset that a little. so i do that, i'm careful about my dog whistles. this biden budget, hey suburbanites who make good money, i'm going to raise your taxes. i go error. they don't want that fight. gives trump a cudgel. so you target there. you push back too much left because of the young progressives in the end they're not for trump, you'll get them back. and offense and offense and offense and make it about motive. and they're doing this, i give them credit. trump is on trump's side. biden is on biden's side. the other thing, biden ought to run a team effort, get the cabinet in there. he's got superstars like raimondo and buttigieg. mitch landau, one of the -- trump's team looks like a rico case. >> don't wait to take out the monster. you had me there. i'm ready to do that. everyone's sticking around for the hour. when we return, new reporting that the disgraced ex-president

is determined to hire guess who, yeah, paul manafort, his former campaign manager whose ties to russia were called a grave threat. that's next. plus why a former sfreekt supreme court justice is taking the unprecedented step of sounding the alarm over the court's direction. and republicans once again staying silent after donald trump said some undocumented immigrants aren't even people. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. so don't go anywhere, folks. 't . help make trading feel effortless. and its customizable scans with social sentiment help you find and unlock opportunities in the market. e*trade from morgan stanley. with powerful, easy-to-use tools, power e*trade makes complex trading easier. react to fast-moving markets with dynamic charting and a futures ladder that lets you place, flatten, or reverse orders so you won't miss an opportunity. e*trade from morgan stanley.

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there. i think it's a very sad day for our country. he happens to be a very good person. >> i feel very badly for paul manafort. >> one of the reasons i respect paul manafort so much is he went through that trial -- >> donald trump praising his former campaign manager, paul manafort who was convicted of tax and bank fraud in connection with robert mueller's investigation into russian interference into the 2016 election. now it appears the twice impeached, disgraced ex-president is ready to welcome manafort back to his campaign. "washington post" reporting that, quote, the job discussions have largely centered around the 2024 republican convention in milwaukee in july and could include manafort playing a role in fund-raising for the presumptive gop nominee's campaign. according to these people, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to describe private deliberations, no formal decision has been made. the four people describe the hiring as expected and said trump was determined to bring

manafort back into the fold. the mueller report found that manafort was severely compromised by his contacts with russian assets. "washington post" adding this. quote, mueller found that manafort shared internal trump campaign polling data with long-time associate who the fbi assessed had ties to russian intelligence. a bipartisan senate committee that investigated russian interference in the 2016 election concluded that manafort's receptivity to russian outreach was a great counterintelligence threat that had made the 2016 campaign susceptible to malign russian influence. trump later pardoned manafort in 2020, shortly before the end of his term. joining our conversation, former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissmann is back. we also have eddie, alexi and mike are still with us. so andrew, there's probably no

one outside of the robert mueller -- outside of robert mueller himself who is familiar with the investigation than you. what was your first reaction to hearing he's back? >> i thought it might be useful to remind people of exactly who he is. but i also think if you put this story together with donald trump's current words about people who participated in the january 6th insurrection and the assault on congress trying to overthrowing our democracy, that they're hostages and not just criminal defendants, the paul manafort piece just becomes just another data point for something that we already know about donald trump. and very much running as a sort

of outlaw candidate. so this to me seems like a piece of that. but it's worth remembering that donald trump is praising somebody who went to trial, as is his right. paul manafort was convicted by a jury of his peers of eight felonies, sort of widespread tax and bank fraud. he then pled guilty to more tax, more bank fraud, obstruction of justice. he admitted that he tampered with two witnesses while out on bail. that led to the judge revoking his being out on bail and sending him to jail. he also, as you noted, had ordered that internal polling data be given to his colleague, konstantin clemnik who was found by the nba to be closely associated with russian intelligence. and actually, after the biden

administration took over it was confirmed and reported that that russian -- that polling data went to russia. it didn't just go to his associate. that it actually did make its way all the way to the kremlin. so this is somebody who has a history, a litany of felonies that are quite serious. that usually is not something that is the resume of somebody who is campaign manager of one of the two major parties in the united states. >> so eddie, after hearing everything that andrew just laid out, and when you look at trump's continued inability to condemn putin, even in the wake of the death of opposition navalny, and russia's highly undemocratic presidential election which we've just witnessed over the last 24 hours, what's your assessment of the danger here? how dangerous do you think it is to have someone like manafort coming back into our politics,

back into our political process? >> oh, i think we're at the highest threat level we could possibly imagine in some ways. and let's add to your description, mike, what michael cohen said in the last hour. given the bond that he can't make. where is he going to get this money? it actually opens him up to all sorts of influences in so many ways. you know, i think it's so clear to me that the failure to hold donald trump accountable over the course of his life has led this man to be able to think that he can act with impunity, that he can act without being held responsible for anything. the idea that paul manafort, given what andrew just laid out, can re-enter politics boggles my mind. and to be honest with you, and i know this may sound a bit, you know, obsessive on my part, damn, white men get breaks, man. i mean, could you imagine? >> one more time, eddie. one more time for the people who

didn't -- >> but could you imagine anybody else being able to do this? whether it's trump or manafort or whomever. it just blows my mind, mike. >> i got nothing. >> we've got to repeat that clip in slow motion. >> so andrew, this sort of bringing it back a little bit, back in 2019 msnbc -- nbc reported this former trump campaign manager paul manafort told his long-time associate rick gates after they were hit with the federal charges not to plead guilty because the president's personal lawyer had assured him they'd be taken care of, according to the special counsel's report. manafort went on to say that it would be stupid to plead guilty. manafort emphasized that he had been in touch with the president's personal lawyer and repeated that they should sit tight and will be taken care of. mueller's report says. has that prediction come true? is now we're seeing that borne

out, that he's been taken care of and not once but twice because there was a little pardon thing and now back in the game. >> well, remember that donald trump's actions and words with respect to paul manafort formed one of the ten bases that were cited in the mueller report for obstruction of justice that were alleged with respect to donald trump. with respect to the activities of donald trump, with respect to paul manafort but also others, steve bannon, roger stone, michael flynn, all of these people received some form of pardon or commutation from the president. all of these people had committed crimes that were at the behest of or part of or related to their activities with donald trump. so you can -- this is not

exactly -- i think somebody was saying that the campaign used to look like a rico chart. and you know, there's a series of criminals. michael cohen himself, you know, has admitted to lying to congress about the moscow tower. and obviously he was doing that for only one person. he didn't -- he wasn't doing that for himself. and the upcoming trial in manhattan is part of the same thing, where michael cohen, for all of his faults, what he's going to be describing is something he clearly wasn't doing for himself. this is all undertaken for donald trump and is part of a pattern. but it is a case where donald trump, because he had the pardon power, was able to give all of these people around him get out of jail free card literally. and that is -- that is the state

of our country, where we have donald trump running for office again with overtly saying that he is running to let people -- to let criminals out of jail and is going to reportedly use criminals to help him get back into the white house. >> all right. andrew weissmann, i'd like you to stick around because i want to ask you about some breaking news in the trump hush money trial right after a very short break. ey trial right after a very short break. all parts working in sync to move your business forward. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business. and how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. usps ground advantage.

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some breaking news in the trump hush money trial, set to begin next month. judge juan merchan says stormy daniels, karen mcdougal and michael cohen can testify in the trial with restrictions. in his ruling the judge denied trump's motion to preclude testimony from daniels, mcdougal and cohen with caveats. the defense wanted to block the mention of catch and kill. and that was also denied. we're back with andrew weissmann. andrew, what say you about this? breaking news on the judge's decision. >> i think there are a couple of things. big picture, there is going to be this hearing on the 25th about these new tranches of documents that came from the southern district of new york. but i think this is a really good sign that this judge is going to have this trial. if he had thought that that hearing was going to really sort of lead to this being an off-ramp, i don't think we would

be seeing this. that's sort of the big picture, that you know, i think what's going to happen on the 25th is he's going to see that whatever faults there were did not come from the manhattan d.a.'s office. it may have come from the federal prosecutors, but that's not going to be something that is attributed to the state prosecutors. i think it's pretty clear from this ruling, although it's not, you know, one to one, that the trial's going to go forward. with respect to the actual ruling, i have to look through it more closely, but big picture, a lot of these were sort of hail marys by the defense. and also just remember there were also motions that were made by the prosecutors as to what arguments could not be made by the defense and it looks like a really clean sweep on the rulings for the state and against donald trump. so for instance, the prosecutors wanted to make sure that donald trump wasn't going to be able to argue jury nullification, wasn't

going to be able to say oh, i'm only being prosecuted because of political motives. all of that's improper. this is about the evidence. either the facts show beyond a reasonable doubt that he did each of these crimes or it doesn't. and it's going to be argued according to the judge on those facts. the idea that the witnesses were going to be precluded was something that the experienced defense lawyers on the other side representing donald trump, you know, obviously understood that that was not likely to prevail. so i'm not surprised by that ruling. and also the state won essentially on all of the arguments they made that donald trump was saying please preclude my admission, statements i had made from coming into evidence. the judge denied all of that, saying as long as the state can prove that donald trump made those statements, in other words, what's called laying a foundation under the rules of

evidence, that's coming in as well. so this looks like i would suspect from both sides this was probably not surprising. but for us looking from the outside in this is a very, very good ruling for the state and not good for donald trump. but i think the big picture is it really signals to me his trial's going forward. >> is there -- i mean, so at this point is there anything else left and this case can proceed? there's no more that can be thrown at the legal wall here? >> well, you know, having said -- no one predicted, certainly i did not predict the southern district, you know, tranche of documents coming in. i'd hate to be like nothing else can happen. but that's the big remaining issue. and there what donald trump wants to show is that these late production of documents is the fault of the manhattan d.a. because under state law the d.a.

has the responsibility to make sure that there is timely disclosure of this kind of evidence. but obviously if it's not the state's fault, if it's just, you know, getting something from a third party pursuant to a subpoena then that's not something that's attributable to the state. they didn't do anything wrong. and that one answer to this is donald trump should have subpoenaed it earlier if he wanted it early. that doesn't -- obviously, that doesn't answer why on god's green earth the federal government didn't turn this over earlier to the state. you know, i think we'll learn the answer to that. but i think that's the one thing that we should keep an eye out for on the 25th. but i think that absent that taking some unusual challenge, off-ramp, i don't see this case not going forward. and you know, the other thing is this decision makes it very

clear, this is a serious judge who's going to keep the trains, you know, running on time. >> right. well, andrew, as always, man, you are on point and when the news breaks you're even more on point. we appreciate you, my friend. thank you so much. we're going to take a quick break, folks. we'll be right back. k, folks we'll be right back. start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. moving forward with node-positive breast cancer is overwhelming. but i never just found my way; i made it. and did all i could to prevent recurrence. verzenio reduces the risk of recurrence of hr-positive, her2-negative, node-positive, early breast cancer with a high chance of returning as determined by your doctor when added to hormone therapy. diarrhea is common, may be severe, or cause dehydration or infection. at the first sign, call your doctor, start an anti-diarrheal , and drink fluids. before taking verzenio, tell your doctor about any fever, chills, or other signs of infection. verzenio may cause low white blood cell counts,

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surrounding the conservative justices on the court could permanently erode trust in our nation's highest court. now even retired supreme court justice stephen breyer is sounding the alarm about the crisis surrounding the court. "the new york times" reporting that breyer in a new book writes this. quote, something important is going on. the court has taken a wrong turn, he said. and it is not too late to turn back. it is highly unusual for a justice to criticize the court, reflecting the crisis of confidence that has surrounded the court since the dobbs decision. recent polling found that 60% of americans disapprove of the supreme court, something that justice breyer notes in a warning seemingly directed at justices gorsuch, brett kavanaugh and amy coney barrett. quote, they may well be concerned by decline in trust of the court as shown by public opinion polls. joining us, senior editor for slate and host of the amicus podcast, dahlia lithwick.

eddie, alexi and mike are also back. so dahlia, this sort of criticism coming from a former justice seems far beyond what we've heard from justices in the past. are you surprised by that? and what does it mean that justice breyer is moved to actually go public this way? >> it's actually far further than breyer himself has gone historically. he's usually been incredibly temperate when he was on the court in his criticisms of his peers. and this is a whole different flavor. i think if you hold this up against his former language or what you hear from the other justices when they dissent, where they sort of sound like they've been locked in a supply closet and they're sort of hurling their little bodies against it saying, what about the integrity and reputation of the court? this is a whole new clarion voice for justice breyer. now, some of the points he's making, he's made before. he's talked a lot about how the

court can squander its reputation. he's talked a lot about the need to value precedent and starri zeisis. but what i think you're hearing here is a really pointed critique from someone who's not just worried about originalism and the fact that it's kind of bogus on its own terms. that's the bulk of the book. but i think what he's also worried about is a court that is really sinking in national approval and doesn't seem to care. >> so alexi, in his book he writes in an interview about -- with the "new york times," he focuses heavily on the dobbs decision. quote, justice breyer wrote that the dobbs decision was stunningly naive and saying it was returning to the question of abortion to the political process. the dobbs majority's hope that legislatures and not courts will decide the abortion question will not be realized, he wrote. "the new york times" adding, there are too many questions, he said. are they really going to allow

women to die on the table because they won't allow an abortion which would save her life? i mean, really? no one would do that. and they wouldn't do that. and there will be dozens of questions like that. do you think justice breyer has predicted accurately this post-dobbs environment or does he -- is he somewhat -- well, i'll put it this way. has he predicted this accurately or is it still forming? is this post-dobbs environment still kind of taking shape? >> i mean, definitely still taking shape. and we know that anti-abortion folks and republicans who support restrictions are willing to let women die in order to prevent an abortion from happening. they are willing to let a 10-year-old be prek nant after being raped by her uncle because they think that an unborn baby is more important than a woman's life, a girl's life, anyone who doesn't look like them. and i think, you know, with respect to the supreme court we have to go back to trump getting elected president and people sounding the alarm about this and everyone was like oh, you

guys are overreacting. he's not going to put supreme court justices on. then he gets the opportunity to do it. and you guys are overreacting. they're not going to overturn roe. and i remember with my friends we were early 20-somethings working in d.c. girlfriends being like guys, this could totally happen. and it's a big deal. and everyone was kind of just like not going to happen, so don't worry about it. kavanaugh gets on the supreme court. obviously ruth bader ginsburg was sort of this feminist hero for a lot of people. they now have made this dobbs decision. they're going after mifepristone. they're going after ivf in alabama. it's a terrifying time. and if republicans and supreme court justices picked by donald trump continue to hold power it will be a darker and darker time

i think it depends which conservative justices, i think we've seen a real split some stops where we saw justices thomas and alito, to some degree justice gorsuch, double down and double down again. i don't think they are plus get all about what has happened, and i think we've heard intimations from thomas and alito that they push this further, you know, they would sweep in lgbtq right, and they would sweep and other rights that we thought were immutable. i think that justices kavanaugh and justice amy coney barrett and certainly the chief justice, did not sign off on the dobbs majority opinion. i think they are very anxious about what has been done to the

country of the reputation of the court and we've seen that manifesting in the last year and a half. >> we've got less than a minute left but i wanted to go back will click on the metaphor, we are talking about paul manafort, why do you think he is being pulled back in? >> i don't think it's a moral compass, because trump doesn't have one. it's a specialized thing to run a convention and with the exception of chris sausalito who was inoperative, the trump world it would be like chimps playing with a suitcase to run a complicated convention. manafort has useful skills so i think that is what is really driving this. though fight will be over whether or not trump's makeup team -- trailer will be big, -- >> i think a lot of it is the blocking they will need to do at the convention as well. thank you all so very much. a quick break for us, we will be right back right bac e your t er with buy one get one free at visionworks. see the difference. this is david's look of joy.

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a judge told navarro, quote, you are not a victim, you are not the object of a political prosecution. you art. you have received every process you are due. we will keep an eye on miami tomorrow, another break for us, we will be right back. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. -really? -get a quote at progresivecommercial.com. (♪♪) [shaking] itchy pet? (♪♪) with chewy, save 20% on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] (narrator) frustrated by your weight and health? join over five million people who found golo, get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door.

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see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. thanks for spending part of your monday with us, the beat with jason johnson starts right now. what's up, jason? >> glad to be here, thank you so much, michael, and welcome to the beat. we start with donald trump intensifying his violent rhetoric, surprise, seemin