chance he's going to be playing in october because he's on our dodgers. he's protected. he has mookie betts in front of him, freddie freeman after him. they have to go after him. he's a dh. he's not going to have to pitch. you'll see him hit all year. >> i'm giving you the wrap sign. >> we'll finish it over dinner. >> now go home and pick up your socks, my love. tony, thank you for coming in and saving the day and talking baseball. that does it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in nor nicolle wallace. the disgraced, twice impeached,

ex president is staring down a deadline. donald trump must pony up a nearly $500 million bond or face the consequences. consequences that new york attorney general letitia james has said will include seizing trump's assets. that looming possibility appears to have sent donald trump into a downward spiral. he's had multiple raised tweets and an emergency fund-raising texting asking donors to help him. against that back drop attorney general games is turning up the heat, pushing back on trump's claims that they're very difficulty getting a bond. letitia james has accused trump's team of faulty logic. quote, based on the false

premise that they must obtain a single bond for the entire judgment of $464 million, she suggests dividing the bond into smaller chunks. she calls trump's bluff on not wanting to do a fire sale to raise money, which she says forced her office to do the grunt work of liquidating trump's assets. then she suggests something doesn't add up. she writes, trump's defense boils down to the proposition that sureties have been unwilling to accept mr. trump's holdings in this case, but he has offered no evidence suggesting what real property they offer, on what terms or why the sureties were unwilling to accept the assets. one explanation she said is that, quote, trump's real estate is not as valuable as he claims.

that's where we start with andrew wiseman, plus charlie sykes and with me at the table msnbc host and legal analyst katie fang. andrew, you have letitia james calling trump's bluff. she also seems to be pointing to something you have said, which is that something here does not add up. quote, defendants assert they're unable to post a bond because their assets are tied up in real property rather than cash or liquid securities. the use of real estate is hardly impossible as a general matter. though defendants acknowledge it's possible to use a letter of credit to obtain a bond, they do not explain why a bank wouldn't accept real property to finance the letter of credit. what is it, andrew, that she's driving at here? >> i think this is something i was saying that just doesn't make any sense at all.

donald trump was saying, i don't have enough cash and with respect to the real property, there are companies not willing to take real property as collateral to give me a bond. the reason that tish james is saying it doesn't make sense is, one, fine, go ahead and post real property in court. the court can hang on to the property. just post the real property if there's any equity in it. she said, you can get a letter of credit from a company and you can have the real estate back that up. i proposed you could get a mortgage on real estate and use the mortgage funds. all of us who ever owned property get mortgages.

he can do all that. the real issue is he may be too leveraged. he says he's worth so much, but all these properties are used to back loans from other institutions. he may not have all that much money, either cash on hand or property that isn't already pledged for other loans. the reason he's having trouble and might be having this meltdown is he can't post the money and he needs a life line through some third party who is going to be able to bail him out. >> katie, earlier today you had trump retweeting this, republican billionaires rally around trump. in reality that has not been the case. let's take a listen. >> are they in the room with us now? >> no. not only are they not here, but even fox news noticed they're missing. take a listen. >> what is behind their

reluctance? >> it's as of now. >> are they afraid they might not see it any time soon, the money, if he succeeds on appeal? >> that's one thing. i mean, i think -- i don't want to speak for anyone, but just generally donald doesn't have a great record of paying back banks, donald trump. surmise from that what you will. >> he's always been a credit risk. the reason why you see him losing it is it's the true the emperor doesn't have any clothes. maybe the wizard of oz, you look behind the curtains and who's pulling all the strings, the wizard. if you're overleveraged, meaning you don't have the ability to take certain assets like real property -- like trump tower, we

now he has a mortgage on that property. how does that operate for him to get somebody to think he's a good credit risk? it doesn't. that's it. it's not me, it's a you conversation that's happening. when you think about donald trump who has associated himself with the imagery of being this big, top gunner of finance and of real estate and when the reality is crashing down that he doesn't have the ability to satisfy this type of judgment, i don't blame letitia james for writing this reply. she's saying, look, billion dollar bonds exist. she lists cases. she says, judge, by the way, the people that did these affirmations, judge engoron

found that these affirmation it is were lacking. number two, alan garden, by the way, he participated in the fraud on the people of the state of new york. even the affirmations are questionable. that's the problem for donald trump. he can't find the ability to satisfy any demands made by legitimate lenders. i want to emphasize legitimate. doesn't mean there aren't lenders out there willing to give the money to donald trump. let me be clear, these lenders you won't see their signatures on any paper. it's, here's some cash, have a nice day. there's not going to be the transparency as to who's giving money to donald trump to get a bond surety. >> i want to come back to that question, but i want to talk about the idea of the perception of donald trump charlie versus

the reality of donald trump. this is a person who claimed bankruptcy multiple times before. why is that not an option here, charlie? >> as katie said, he's a credit risk. the prospect for donald trump of declaring bankruptcy on march 25, 2024 has got to be one of the things that is keeping him up. the man is without shame, but he's not without recognition of the damage that could do because it does blow up this myth he's created. it is a myth. he's created this empire on a tower of fraud and lies. many of americans believe he's a successful billionaire, that these businesses are these magnificent constructions of his imagination. that is going to weigh heavily on him. i have a point, though. this is a dangerous moment

because the more desperate donald trump is, the more likely he is to take desperate measures, including taking money in a very nontransparent way from some of the shadiest characters on the globe. where is that money coming from? you can imagine there would be potentially foreign actors who would be more than willing to buy the kind of influence, to buy the kind of gratitude and leverage that this would mean. you have to say, what is going to happen over the next week here? are we going to see saudi money, russian money? this is no longer fanciful. donald trump faces a hard deadline, an impossible option unless somebody comes in at the last minute. who might that somebody be and what do they want in exchange for the money? >> which of those options,

andrew, scares you most? >> the national security one, as charlie said, is the scariest. the idea that somebody really could be beholden to -- it could be a domestic person as well, but certainly a foreign person, that is not in the national security interest of america. that has to be of paramount concern. that's why the department of justice did what it did to recover the documents at mar-a-lago, because that -- when you are in public service, the pre-eminent duty that you have is the safety of the public you're there to serve. so the idea that he could be beholden to the tune of $500 million is something that's unimaginable. on the point of bankruptcy, it's

not clear -- bankruptcy is a federal institution. it's not clear if donald trump were to try to file bankruptcy, even with the political repercussions, that it would absolve a state judgment brought by the attorney general. this is not a private party anymore than the analogy is -- if you were in bankruptcy federally and you drove around new york city and had parking tickets, you don't get to say, i don't have to pay those. regulatory action taken by the state is something that still has to be paid. that's what this is. it's not a private suit. it was brought by the state. i'm not sure there's even a legal option of shielding himself through bankruptcy. he will be in a position, absent

the court lowering the bond amount, i think on monday he'll face letitia james starting to put liens on any and all property. >> if you have debt through a fraud judgment, it permeates all the counts that letitia james was pursuing against trump and the other defendants. we talk about donald trump obviously. he's the larger than life presence in terms of the conversations we're having. remember, it's eric trump, don trump junior. it's the cfos, the other people that were high-level business officers. it's the entities themselves. it's not just the people. it's the businesses. what do the businesses hold? you have mar-a-lago, you have llcs that have assets, they have real property. just because you have them in

the name of a business doesn't mean they go away. furthermore, we have do mes indication. this is a new york-based judgment. we have property, if you're donald trump, in other states. that can be domesticated in florida for mar-a-lago. it's not only limited within the four corners of the confines of new york. letitia james will hunt this stuff down. that's why you're seeing him implode. that's why he's freaking out. she has the means, the manner and the wherewithal and frankly the gumption to go after him. >> i want to put a pin in the civil fraud trial and talk about fulton county. judge mcafee granted a certificate of immediate review clearing the way for trump to appeal judge mcafee's review. is this significant? >> it is. it allows trump and eight other

co-defendants to go to the georgia appellate court. it's significant. the appellate court has to decide to take it. just because they apply, doesn't mean they'll take it. the most important thing about what happened today with mcafee is the fact that he announced in his order, i'm still pushing this case. i'm going to continue to address certain things going on and i don't care whether or not this appeal is taken or not. this train is continuing down the track and the path towards trial. i got a problem. there's no trial date. so i appreciate the energy from judge mcafee. come on, buddy, give me a trial. >> andrew, that appetite for timeline is shared by most of us. quick question on the hush money case. this case was supposed to begin monday. it's been delayed to mid april.

today you had stormy daniels meeting with alvin bragg's prosecutors. there's a hearing monday. what are you expecting from that filing? >> well, everyone is trying to figure out why was there a delay in all of these documents coming from the southern district of new york to donald trump. why weren't they turned over earlier? there is a new york law about discovery that requires the prosecutors -- they're required to turn over any and all relevant evidence to the defense in sufficient time that it can be used at a trial. that's a good thing. that's part of due process of law. so all of these documents were turned over just now. so that led to what is in effect a 20-day delay in the trial and the hearing is going to be about

essentially whose fault is it. is it donald trump's fault because he only subpoenaed these documents from the federal prosecutor in january? if he wanted them sooner, why didn't he subpoena them sooner? two, why did the federal prosecutors produce them only in march? why didn't they give them to either the defense in january when they were subpoenaed or to alvin bragg a year ago when alvin bragg says he asked for at least some of them? third, the question will be what exactly did alvin bragg ask for a year ago and was there anything that he was mistakenly by the federal government not given? it's really going to be a lot of -- what i've joked is trench warfare. there's going to be a question of who asked for them and when

were they produced? that's what the judge has to deal with. i have to say i think ultimately at the end of the day this will be a blip in the road. i think we'll have a trial 20 days delayed, but i think we'll have a trial. so far it doesn't look like there's any fault with alvin bragg, but that's what the hearing will determine. >> andrew, trench warfare is a nerdy joke and i'm the audience for it. thank you for joining us. charlie, you're sticking with me. donald trump's re-election campaign, if you look under the hood, it might be a lemon. looking closely at last night's primary win for him, there's some signs there's problems for him and the party. republicans today unsure of why they continue to push ahead with their inquiry into alleged

biden family wrongdoings. today again failing to produce any real evidence. one of their witnesses even calling in from prison. we'll talk about it with one democratic member who witnessed it all. later, protecting american democracy may take more than just stopping donald trump. it's also about stopping his enablers. all that and more when "deadline: white house" continues after this. i don't. platinum plus is cascade's best clean ever. with double the dawn and double the scrubbers, it removes the toughest grease and residue for an irresistible clean and shine. cascade platinum plus. dare to dish differently. this is terry's look of total relaxation. and this is his john deere x350 lawn tractor. it cuts millions of blades of grass. ♪♪ transports anything that's in-season. ♪♪ and takes care of whatever fall may bring. [whoosh sound]

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donald trump's political allies will look you straight in the eye and tell you perhaps

with a straight face that all went according to plan for the disgraced ex president in tuesday's primaries. of course those people don't know or care about the reality of the situation. yes, trump along with president biden swept all delegating up for grabs yesterday. beneath the surface a number of signs of political peril for the disgraced ex president. consider what axios highlighted this morning. trump, the only gop candidate still running for president, once again saw a big percentage of republican voters, almost 20% in most of tuesday's contest, cast ballots for someone else. in ohio that particular crowd, 200,000 voting for someone not named donald trump. separately in ohio another concern for republicans after yesterday's results. their chances with voters in a general election setting. in that state's race for senate

trump-backed candidate won over more mainstream candidates and is poised to run in november. joining our conversation cornell belcher. charlie is back with us. let's start with moreno's win yesterday. is this sort of a be careful what you wish for result given how different voters in a republican primary are versus a general election? >> look, you know, ask mitch mcconnell what he thinks about donald trump-led candidates. mitch mcconnell would say he would be senate majority leader if it wasn't for donald trump's endorsed candidates. look, in any battleground state you have candidates who need to appeal to the middle swath of voters, the moderates. you can generate base energy,

but in the end can he speak to that mom at the kitchen table looking over bills and thinking about how to pay for college? does extremism sell or do you need someone that has a track record of working for people and a track record of getting things done? look, ohio's a tough state for democrats. let's be clear. i'm not going to pull punches on that, but we like our chances more with an extremist candidate. >> charlie, you layer on to that the 20% of republican voters who cast a ballot for someone else. what does that tell you? >> well, this is very interesting. one caveat is that primary voters aren't the same as general election voters. that's a large portion of the republican electorate and it's been consistent across the country. you saw it in primary after primary, 19, 20% of republican voters who will not -- did not

vote for donald trump. in some of the states telling exit pollsters they were going to vote for joe biden or leave the presidential line blank in november. you know, these are potentially the voters who will determine the outcome in these swing states. the question is are they gettable for donald trump? well, donald trump and his allies aren't making much of an effort to get the nikki haley vote. they're not reaching out to these centrist voters and between now and november, they're going to be hearing a lot what liz cheney is saying, what mens even is saying, members of trump's cabinet who are -- one would hope that the generals, the chiefs of staff, other close aides to the former president will say, i have to

warn you, you don't want to put him back in the oval office. this is a small segment of the electorate, but it could be a decisive segment. >> cornell, you and charlie are doing an excellent job of managing my expectations. you've already told me, cornell, where you feel ohio is likely headed. i want to throw a little more in and ask you a question. in 2016 from the associated press, ohio became reliably republican as more and more voters embraced trump's brand of politics. now there's hints the dynamic may be shifting after the supreme court overturned protections for abortion, ohio voters approved an amendment enshrining abortion rights in the state constitution. they did so after swarming to the polls. the state also legalized recreational marijuana. i take your point, cornell, that it would be a very hard fight

for democrats. if it is indeed a fight they want to fight, cornell, how do they do it? what does it require? >> well, it requires a candidate like sherry brown. every election cycle she's declared dead man walking and yet wins. there's a connection that's special to working class voters in ohio. to that point, look, there are dynamics at play with reproductive rights and freedoms and to charlie's point, 20% of republicans not casting a vote for donald trump is not anything to overlook. you know, that's a state that could be won or lost by 100,000 votes, 60,000 votes. you're not talking about a large margin there. if it's a contrast hard on the

issues of freedoms, particularly around abortion rights where we know even a modicum of republican women who may not be for abortion don't like the idea of the government telling women what they can or cannot do. again, you have to like brown's chances. he's got a puncher's shot of re-election in a state where he consistently overperforms. >> charlie, i need not admit to you that reading these tea leaves is how we get from here to november. watching the results last night -- there were 200,000 voters, there was the maga extremist candidate. any other dynamics that stood out to you, charlie? >> again, i think it is this -- it is this persistence of the republican protest vote.

nikki haley dropped out of the race several weeks ago and she's still getting hundreds of thousands of votes. that has to tell you something. somebody went out to the polls and voted for somebody not even running for president in order to basically say, i'm not voting for donald trump today. i'm not voting for him next week or in november. now, again, how does this play out between now and then? we just don't know. it's clearly an achilles' heel for trump even in places like ohio. this ohio election is interesting because bernie moreno is going to present one of the most extreme faces in 2024 to the electorate. you wonder whether or not he's going to act as an anchor. i assume donald trump will win ohio. it's possible joe biden can find

some coattails running with sherrod brown. >> interesting to see what those tickets could look like. cornell, thank you for spending time with us. charlie is sticking with me. republicans and democrats on the hill differ on lots of things. that is an understatement. nowhere is that more obvious than how they see the gop-led impeachment inquiry into president biden. we'll show you what happened in that hearing today. that is next. the soul searcher. and - ahoy! it's the explorer! each helping to protect their money with chase. woah, a lost card isn't keeping this thrill seeker down. lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control.

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try olay regenerist. this has been medifacts for olay. the american people have been lied toby donald trump, rudy giuliani and various cohorts of individuals in government and media positions. they created falsehoods to serve their own interests. the only information ever pushed on the bidens in ukraine has come from one source and one source only, russian agents. >> you're hearing it straight from rudy giuliani's former right-hand man. he worked with giuliani to try to uncover wrongdoing by the biden family. his testimony today said the allegations against president biden are lies pushed by the

kremlin. it pushed the gop into more desperate territory. they've yet to produce any concrete evidence of wrongdoing. the republicans spear heading the effort, james comer, said he's considering making criminal referrals. joining us now congressman robert garcia of california who sits on the impeachment committee. charlie is back with us. congressman, your reaction to the hearing today. >> one thing that's very clear is this impeachment sham is totally over. there has been zero evidence linking the president to any sort of wrongdoing. the white house acknowledged this. all the democrats acknowledge this. in fact, more and more republicans acknowledge this. that's why there's been no vote. i mean, this is just to the point where it's become a joke. it's ridiculous. look at the hearing today. we had one witness testifying from prison.

we had another witness who is a disgraced business person who has lied over and over. it's a long list of frauds, spies, people convicted of crimes who are witnesses of this scam. it's over. we need to move on. >> one of your colleagues, congressman moscowitz showed up to the hearing in a vladimir putin mask which would either make you laugh or cry. i wonder how much it concerns you what you heard today that it's all about russians pedaling disinformation? >> i mean, it is. a huge part of this is -- we know this -- is the russian disinformation machine that's trying to influence our elections. at the end of the day, the bottom line here is this is all about reelecting donald trump. it's how can they damage

president biden? the more they can damage him, the more they can make him look a certain way with the public, it helps donald trump get re-elected. that's their whole mission in life. whether it's mike johnson doing what donald trump says or it's the republicans on this committee. we need to end the charade. the impeachment is over. we're about to head into another government shutdown. >> congressman, i want to ask you if this is falling apart, and it seems to be, the fact you have james comer saying the next phase is criminal referrals, that is a long shot. it sets up a potential road map should donald trump win a second term for how he and his administration would prosecute president biden. i have to imagine as far fetched as that is, it's still concerning. >> look, we have a lot more to

worry about from donald trump if he gets re-elected. we're talking about the fate of our democracy and institutions. we have to do the right thing, even republicans will tell you there's no evidence to link the president, to impeach him on any high crime or misdemeanor. we have to do everything we can to get the truth out there. more importantly the american public has to know the clear and present danger that this maga-inspired majority wants to inflict on our government and institutions. >> congressman, i can feel your staff ready to pull you from this live shot. thank you so much for being with us. charlie, it was a spectacle. we've come to expect a spectacle, yet it's not any less

disappointing. to the congressman's point, there's work they need to be doing for the american people. all this comes at a price not only to our politics, but to our democracy. >> yes, but i have to say that what happened today was truly amazing even by our standards. it's one thing to say this thing is falling apart, but that understates how bad this is. it was dumb and dumber. lev parnas just calling out senator ron johnson, congressman pete sessions, talking about the disinformation and how it comes from russia. if there was even a little bit of shame in james comer's personality they would have turned off the lights and left the room and gone off to -- i don't know -- to a retreat someplace. i mean, really in one day you

encapsulated how absurd this was. then juxtapose it with the actual serious business in front of congress. we're a few days away from a shutdown, yet we have this inept circus going on. it is a circus. we talked about that before. the absurdity was just on display. i mean, i urge people to go watch a youtube video of this testimony. watch the way in which the republican members of the committee were humiliated, how they're flailing here. this is not going to get any better. the criminal referral is the hail mary pass. it's a way of saying we're doing something. doesn't mean it's not dangerous. a clown with a flame thrower still has a flame thrower. this was a very bad day after many, many bad days for this

committee. >> charlie sykes, thank you. up next, a lot of back and forth in texas over the enforcement of a new law giving local police the power to arrest migrants. that story just ahead. that stor. hey, grab more delectables. you know, that lickable cat treat? de-lick-able delectables? yes, just hurry. hmm. it must be delicious. millions of children are fighting to survive delectables lickable treat.

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on a temporary basis. sb-4 gives state and local law enforcement in texas the right to arrest and detain anyone suspected of entering the country illegal. the biden administration says it will only cause more chaos and confusion at the southern border. the fifth circuit heard arguments today and is expected to rule on the matter any moment, setting the stage for supreme court battle which could redefine immigration law enforcement. let's bring in this democratic state congresswoman from texas. yesterday's decision from the supreme court seems possible they rule the law should be enforceable. tell me what that would mean for your state and the people you

serve. >> absolutely. thank you for having me. as chair of the mexican american legislative caucus, we led the fight against this terrible legislation, extreme legislation which is attempting to circumvent our united states constitution. it was an attempt by our governor to create chaos in an election year, trying to do trump's dirty work for him. the impact is racial profiling on american citizens, potential wrongful arrests. it's a situation where we now have to carry our passports in the event the law is not enjoined. there are real world consequences, not just on latinos and people of color, but on our overworked law enforcement. we have a lot of work to do. it's a test case for the supreme court and we're trying to step back. >> you and i are just about old

enough to remember sb-1070 in texas, which is essentially show me your papers. there was a political swing back at that. you had young latinos in arizona, some documented, some undocumented, staying this is not the state i want to live in. i don't want to go to walmart and have a police officer stop me and ask me for documentation and potentially end up in a legal altercation. we saw politically what happened in arizona since sb-1070 was introduced. as you sit with the realities of what this means for folks in texas, silver lining, do you see a political opportunity here? >> absolutely. latinos are the largest population share in the state of texas. we're 12 million strong in our state. our voting is increasing significantly every year as more

latino students turn 18 and register to vote. we know this is a direct attack on us and our political power and our growing political power. i think folks see straight through this and the bottom line is this is red meat for the republican party unfortunately. there was a time where we used to have civil discourse about immigration law and used to be able to put forward conversations and proposals that were seriously considered. we're in a time where our families are looking over their shoulders. individuals are not going to report to law enforcement at a time where we need cooperation and working with law enforcement to keep our community safe. there are real world consequences here. one in four texas families are mixed status families. we'll continue to work, raise our voices, shine a spotlight on what's happening in texas because it has implications for the entire country. >> you and i care about

immigration. we care about the latino community in texas. for folks who that may not be top of mind, i want you to understand the legal precedent set here. this is from america's voice. not only is texas resting its legal argument on the dangerous invasion clause, it's seeking to introduce a new era of state immigration policy making. it would undercut the federal government's supremacy on immigration law and would result in this is like a blueprint, right? where for the gop, state legislatures could turn to supreme court to overrule any federal precedence they don't like. this has implications far beyond texas. far beyond immigration. >> right. we've seen what happened with the overturning of roe v. wade with this new supreme court makeup. they're wanting to do the same thing with the arizona versus united states.

what would happen was essentially if this could open the door to creating a patchwork of immigration law across the country of local ordnances which have been struck down like right here in the farmer's branch area where a landlord was trying to determine somebody's citizenship or the city was trying to require that citizenship status was determined before you could even reside in the city. they're trying to take us backwards. this is not the type of country, you know, we're supposed to be a nation that is welcoming to immigrants. we know there are issues on the border and we urge congress to roll up their sleeves and pass comprehensive immigration reform, but the constitution has a supremacy clause. we have federal laws that need to be followed. not this new patchwork of really extreme, new crimes that are going to give our local police the power to arrest and deport. that is not normal. that falls within the per view of the federal government, not a

local magistrate that is not even trained and be an attorney will have that power to remove a person to a port of entry. mexico, when the immigrant may not even be from mexico. that's how extreme and unreasonable this law is. >> to say nothing of the impossible position it puts local law enforcement in. victoria, thank you so much for spending some time with us. going to sneak in a quick break. back with another big endorsement for president biden. stay with us. r big endorsement for president biden. stay with us children are the greatest joy and our best hope for a better future. friends, they are the future. but did you know that millions of kids right here in our own backyard are facing hunger every day without healthy food?

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president biden this afternoon is in arizona at the chip making company, intel, to announce an $8.5 billion investment to administration estimates will create 10,000 manufacturing jobs and 20,000 construction jobs. ahead of that company saying the president's announcement is an investment in america comes as the president scored a new endorsement from the united steel workers, the planned sale of u.s. steel to a japanese based company. on top of that, today, nbc news has new, exclusive reporting about the kennedy family's plan to run their support for president biden after their st. patrick's day white house appearance. with the senior member of the kennedy family saying quote, there was a point of having everybody there. up next for us, how liz cheney is still planning on making a difference this november. much more news ahead.

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the future of the democracy depends upon making sure the republicans are not in the majority in the house, the senate in 2025. we can survive bad policy. we can't survive leaders who, who are going to torch the constitution. >> hi, again, everyone. it is 5:00 here in new york. i'm in for nicolle wallace. bold statements essentially saying american democracy and the republican party can no

longer coexist. she spoke of how congressional republicans know better to follow the former president any way. she said the number of people who believe trump's lies are small and they know it's a danger. that's what is so scary about the times we are currently in. donald trump did not have others around him enabling his autocratic ways, our system of government wouldn't be threatened. he couldn't do damage without others spreading the big lie. he could not weaponize the department of justice without those willing to do his bidding. he could not get away with hateful and anti-american rhetoric if everyone, everyone, collectively called him out for it. and he could not be this close to tearing down our democracy without republicans in congress. a branch of government that is supposed to be a check against executive power. as we have been discussing recently, autocrats need others to build their power. a new review in "the new yorker"

looks at a back examining the history of germany in the 1930s concluded hitler did not seize power. he was given it. the review ends with an ominous message about history repeating its. though trump isn't mentioned by name, pretty easy to see the parallels. we see through a glass as patterns flash before our eyes. the demagogue made strong not by conviction. the aging center left, the media lords who want something like what the demagogue wants, the political maneuvers who think they can outwit the demagogue, the resistance and sudden surrender. democracy doesn't die in darkness. it dies in bright, mid afternoon light where politicians fall back on familiarities and make faint offers to authoritarians and say a firm and final no and then wake up a few days later and say maybe this time, it

might work out. look at the other side. precise circumstances never repeat yet shapes and patterns so often recur. liz cheney, she is a rare exception right now in the republican party. not willing to surrender her country to an autocrat. the big question is will her efforts and efforts of the few like her be enough to overcome the many enablers? that is where we start this hour with professor of history at nyu and author, and with me at the table, professor of philosophy at yale university and author of six books including how fascism works and host of the podcast and special correspondent for "vanity fair." where would donald trump be if not for his followers and enablers? >> he'd be nowhere. in fact, there are different types of enablers and we have to

get to all of them. there are the foot soldiers, the violent thugs who intimidate people on the street. there are the elite enablers and here we have the gop and then there are a kind of what are called the desk killers. the bureaucrats who sign the papers and work in the civil service, which is why project 2025 is focusing on them. all of these types of people have already created a coup attempt which was january 6th which broke so many taboos if you look at it with a big lens, that it prepared for the next you know, the next stage of the onslaught on our democracy and all of the enablers are complicit in this. >> it's very easy to say we've never seen this before. there's never been someone like donald trump before. and that is too fas lar reading of history. >> absolutely. most, many democracies fall to autocrats. the united states is not some

massively special country as we're witnessing right now. autocrats only win if fascists only win if people who had never described them as fascists support them. they think that those autocrats can get their goals done for them. so in germany, in nazi germany, the ceos thought that hitler would deal with the labor unions and so they thought they could control him. he'll deal with the labor unions so we'll vote for him. even though there was obvious signs that he was an autocrat. that's what we're seeing today. we're seeing different groups of people who wouldn't themselves describe themselves as fascist support a fascist leader. >> is that a retort when you're at dinner with someone and they say well, it's tax policy. i'm voting on tax policy. >> right. or i'm voting on abortion. or law and order or immigration. or lgbt rights.

in each case, people would deny they're against democracy but they see this as the quickest way to get their agenda done and it's always the case that the autocrat promises the different groups to get their agenda done. trump promised to end roe versus wade. he brags about this. he brags about he gives his constituents what they want as long as they support his autocratic ambitions. >> i'm struck by the way ruth laid out you have the foot soldiers, the elite enablers then the desk killers. the civil servants willing to execute of those who do you worry about most? >> i think the house gop is not covering themselves with glory right now. they've installed mike johnson, maga mike johnson, really donald trump's guy.

his bona fides were that he try to overturn the 2020 election. he's very much -- then they tried to impeach, they're still working on this vibes based impeachment of joe biden. >> there's a vibe shift with that impeachment and it looks like they have no crimes nor misdemeanors and they're still trying to impeach mayorcas. these are things they are doing because donald trump told them to. >> ruth, the thing is, even as the vibes are off in the impeachment, they're still talking about a potential criminal referral so donald trump, should he get a second term, has a roadmap for how he would prosecute his predecessor. that of course sort of straight out of the authoritarian playbook. you have a new op-ed about trump's praising of dictators and in it, you write americans are the most important audience

for the stream of praise he dregts to autocrats. as models of leadership should be understood as part of a reeducation strategy. conditioning americans to see authoritarianism as a superior form of democracy. that is likely why he makes strong men rule his brand, telling americans it is in their interest to allow them to save him from the crime of democracy and give them an orderly, authoritarian world under his control. i mean, it is hard given how much that terrifies everyone at this table. you sitting with us. that that actually is inspiring to a lot of americans. >> it is and it's, it was terrifying to write it. i'm sorry i had to write it. it's the same, that's why i wrote strong men, which was terrifying to write as well, to warn americans that no place is immune from this kind of thing. and that the elements of this

authoritarian playbook repeat. we're talking about germany. hitler actually you know, he got himself cleaned up but he also played the victim. i have a poster, reproduction of a poster in my book. it's unbelievable. where there was a speech, a ban on him public speaking placed on him in the mid '20s because of his hate speech, which was out there in the open. and the nazi party made political performance and political capital out of this. they actually printed a poster depicting hitler as a victim of what we call today cancel culture with his mouth taped over. it said of all the people in germany, only i am not allowed to speak. it sounds like something donald trump would say today. so the victim hood, getting the enablers, including rich people who introduced hitler to the right people so he would make, have donations come in. all of that repeats and it looks different every time. so we may think that well, it's

not going to happen here or it's not going to happen to me because i'm not an immigrant but we can learn from history and know that nobody is safe when someone like a trump is around. >> in light of that, jason, it struck me that over the weekend at a rally in ohio, you had trump saying that president biden is a threat to democracy. that if he were to win, it would be the last american election. not really completing the thought. sort of ominously leaving it vague as to why there would be no future election. this is a strategy. it's not, it's just not an off the cuff remark. >> absolutely. projection. it's a classic strategy of fascist leaders. look at putin. he calls ukrainians fascists when the russian, when russia is in fact a fascist country right now. so you can tell what trump is going to do from what he imputes to biden.

so he's telling you that there will be no election if he is elected. and further more, the strategy is meant to take the fang out of the charge that he's a threat to democracy. so people are confused. he's saying no, the other guy's a threat to democracy. he's reversing every charge against him in order to make everything unclear. >> what's the antidote to that? >> the solutions i don't necessarily provide. >> which is to those of us here on earth one, we say when president biden says that donald trump is a threat to democracy, he can say look at what happened on january 6th. look at what happened in the lead up to january 6th. there is a rationale for why i believe this person is dangerous. when donald trump says it, it's like the ellipse at the end of a sentence. >> well, it's meant to take the

fangs out of the charge against him, which is clever. however, this, it -- trump also always tells you what he's going to do. this is an old point in the literature on authoritarians. many times has he said he was going to be a dictator for the day. he said he's going to target his political opponents. why people don't take this seriously is one of the mysteries of history. so one thing we can do is take donald trump's anti democratic rhetoric and anti democratic actions as in the coup, seriously for once and the media, when we talk about enablers, the media is enabling this by saying things like well, another four years of donald trump. what? donald trump will stay in office until he appoints a successor. >> right. here's the thing, which is you have people in power, the reason liz cheney saying everything

that she said is so surprising is because we haven't seen a lot of profiles in courage. we haven't seen a lot of people standing up who could, to your point about the mysteries of history, actually help us unravel that. who could say yes, i'm a republican and when donald trump speaks, i believe him. i take him at his word. instead, they're like, ah, he's just being a provock tore. >> and to bring people from the first trump admin. >> as a continuous drum beat. >> and mike pence refused to endorse donald trump. right? this is huge. and that's why the republicans are so upset by and trumpists are so upset by liz cheney and mike pence. because they know there's really the best people to make that case are the people who are partisan republicans but for whom they know what a donald trump, another donald trump presidency, however long that

lasts, could be very long time, would look like. >> so, ruth, there's domestic piece of all this then you have trump reiterating his comments on nato saying the u.s. would stay in nato but only if other members pay quote, their fair share, which is not how nato works. i mean, there's the damage it is doing here. there is the damage it is doing to the global order. >> absolutely. and you know, if the gop were an independent state, it's sadly, this is terrible situation. its foreign policy and identity in the world would be that of an autocracy. and so you know, when orban is visiting the heritage foundation, then visits mar-a-lago, this is not only signaling that if trump wins, this will be like a very important note in this new you know kind of fascist international 2.0, but it's also

delegitimizing biden. bypassing biden. so it's a slap in the face of democracy and everything the gop is doing the trying to get its credentials set up, all the enablers. the heritage foundation. all of the enablers. they're trying to get their credentials in order for the autocracy they hope so fervently will come to america. foreign policy level as well. >> that is so right. we talked about viktor orban coming to the united states, meeting the donald trump. he didn't just meet with donald trump. he met with institutional conservatives, right? there is an effort for these wheels to keep moving with or without donald trump. >> that's right. orban has the playbook. he is the playbook that a lot of far right leaders around the world with following. it targets universities and

schools, pointing opponents as markists and instead of killing them as putin does, he used the courts to go after them financially, for example. and in ways that i think we will see increasingly here if donald trump is elected. he replaces, there's a lot of coordination like in germany. replacing people by loyalists. judges. the press. and teachers and university professors. and what trump is signaling and what in general the right wing is signaling by having him speak in the national conservative meeting is that that's the plan for here. >> so ruth, i have now asked this incredibly brilliant professor of philosophy multiple times what do we do. he has reminded me that is not his purview, so i'm turning to you. history is not necessarily

practical either. yes, it is great that you have former vice president pence coming out and saying that he won't vote for donald trump or he won't endorse donald trump rather. i'm sorry, because there is a distinction. how about taking the next step. how about saying i am so concerned about democracy that i have to give my endorsement to president biden. does that type of profile in courage begin to close the gap? >> that would be what one should do because one of the principles of resisting autocracy is unity. and the more also successful resistance movements will appeal to what's called pillars of support. these are the major ceos, the bankers, the religious leaders. the people who are conservative but perhaps don't want to see democracy you know, foiled completely.

the other thing i feel strongly about is what i call outcome arguments. you've got to let people know what the cost would be. say there are people who classic, they say oh, i only care about you know, making a good living for my family. but you have to point out what autocracy does to the economy. and it's not good. it's about plundering private citizens' assets as is done in turkey and hungary and of course putin's russia. so there are things you can do to, ways you can make arguments to wake people up and say you know what, you're not going to be immune from this. this is going to involve, sooner or later, this is going to affect you. >> ruth, as always, jason stanley. thank you both so much for spending some time with us. molly is going to stick with me for the hour. when we return, the republican party launching a brand-new wave of legal attacks on voting rights. what they are doing and what is being done to stop them after a quick break. plus, the fight to protect

ivf for all families across this country. senator tammy duckworth, the first senator in u.s. history to give birth while holding office who had both her kids with the help of ivf. she's going to be our guest later in the hour. deadline white house continues after a quick break. stay with us. se continues after a quick break. stay with us (shouting) hi! need new glasses? it's buy one get one free at visionworks! (shouting) how can you see me squinting? (shouting) i can't! i'm just telling everyone! ...hey! see your tax refund go further with buy one get one free at visionworks. see the difference. disrupts my skin, night and day. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema—fast. some rinvoq patients felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days. some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks.

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under new leadership hand picked by the ex-president, rnc is usher in election denial ism.

michael wattly has stacked the rnc's legal team with fellow election deniers and long time job lawyers for an effort mark elias warns today will be quote, shameless and ruthless. adding what we don't know is if they will be effective. quote, they are not -- they a-- these lawyers and the many others who will work with them will soon find themselves arguing against the right to vote and in favor of voter intimidation and subversion. if history is a guide, they will end up ethically and perhaps legally compromised. if the stakes weren't so high, i might feel bad for them. joining us now, founder of democracy docket. mark, talk to me about the connective tissue there, right, about the fact that it could be dangerous, the real question is will they be effective. how do you answer that second

part? >> so i think that's the big question that we're all going to have to, you know, struggle with and prepare for over the course of the next few months. we know that donald trump fired mcdaniel for a couple of reasons. one probably had to do with wanting to put his own family in more control. but the other which got less attention was that he was dissatisfied with mcdaniel's performance to suppress the vote and overturn the election to free and fair elections. winning lawsuits was not one of them and michael is an accomplished lawyer from north carolina. i know him well. i've litigated a lot of cases in north carolina against republicans. and the other lawyers he brought in, at least two of them, have been long standing establishment republican party lawyers. so the question is you know, will this new very aggressive strategy which we've already

started to see, will it be any more effective at achieving what donald trump wants? which is making it harder to vote and easier to cheat. the hope is answer is now. i spend 24 hours a day, seven days a week, literally, trying to make the answer no, but that i think is the challenge in front of us. >> i do wonder if there's sort of a tell in the hand picking of michael watley and this legal team. that there is some fear going into 2024 and the lies that will drive this litigation. if they're sort of already presupposing the outcome here, mark. >> i think that's exactly right. i think that's a very smart point people should pick up and pay attention to. two lawsuits were filed by the rnc since he took over. both of them are to force states, nevada and michigan, to engage in voter. now that's a curious thing for a new rnc chair to use as their

kickoff. why sue two swing states to try to force them to engage in voter purposes. one might say it's because they want to be a -- that's possible. i don't think they're going to win the lawsuits and i think they probably know that. the other is they are setting up a grievance structure that will set themselves up when donald trump loses the election to point back and say, you see, the problem all along was these loaded voter. the unwillingness of the courts to do the right thing. i worry a president who incited an insurrection in 2021 and is speaking about blood baths six months before the election, what he will be doing after he loses the election and how this legal strategy will essentially serve as a spring board for that. >> that grievance structure, molly, that's a huge concern.

>> the guy, we know he had said he was going to say it was rigged. rigged is his favorite thing. it was rigged after that first 2020 election and he planned in 2016 if he hadn't won to say it was rigged. one of the things about trumpism that is unknown is how much this hurts democracy as a whole. right? that having a republican candidate say that elections are rigged again and again and again and having his followers consider him to be the only reliable source of news, what that does to democracy down the line and we don't really know. >> marc, not surprised, i'm not much of an athlete, but one of the things i learned while playing basketball for a few years was that the best offense is a strong defense. the corollary here being i wonder if you are the biden campaign, if you are the dnc and you're watching the shenanigans that are currently brewing at the rnc, what it is that you are doing knowing what they're presupposing, right? there's the voter suppression

piece of it. they're going to have to fight that piece tooth and nail. but also knowing that they're imagining and election that would be contested. what type of team do you need to build, what type of effort and infrastructure do you need to have in place so that when november rolls around, you're prepared? >> the biden team and dnc is quite experienced in this. the other thing, they're focused on winning the election. like, one of the things that is under appreciated in all of the nonsense going on with the rnc is for every minute that the rnc is spending on this, for every dollar they're spending on this or donald trump's legal fees, they are not spending it on getting out the vote. they are not spending it on communicating with voters. television ads. the dnc is focusing on the things it needs to do to win the election. i am sure as we get closer to election day, the dnc will be well prepared as the biden campaign was in 2020 and that

instance, i was proud to be a part of that team that helped win more than 60 cases for president biden and the dnc after the election and i'm sure they will be prepared again after the 2024 election. >> i remember being in nevada and being in arizona, marc, covering those two senate races in 2022 and sitting down with the candidates. they were both running against election deniers and asking them about the maneuvers of the legal team. you could tell neither wanted to get into it and yet both knew that is just the new reality in american politics. i wonder what you make of the fact that you have trump on the trial trying to jiu-jitsu the president's language. >> it's just insane. there are so many things donald trump says that are evil, wrong. then there are the special category of things he says that are just insane. and one of them is this

suggestion that somehow president biden is a threat to democracy. president biden has done everything possible to restore honor and decency into the federal government and that includes respecting norms like not pressuring the department of justice. even in times when frankly i think people like me would have said hey, you know, the department of justice could use a little course correction from time and time again. donald trump has run his entire political career on trampling on democracy. he is an authoritarian figure and there is no one who could be further from that than president biden who is an example of what both parties should aspire to in terms of temperament and commitment, to rule of law and democracy. >> i am taking by the point marc made, which is if you have the rnc completely focused on its legal structure, they're not focused on all of the other down ballot initiatives they would otherwise be focused on. >> they laid a ton of people off. remember the reason trump put his daughter-in-law in there in

the first place because he felt he was sort of upset that rana wasn't paying his legal fees. his legal fees are enormous. part of his success at punting these cases is that he's spending millions and millions of dollars on his legal fees. and they're closing these hispanic outreach centers that were actually quote effective. so, yeah. i don't think that candidate trump is being helped by defendant trump at all. >> marc elias, always giving us some silver linings. thanks so much, molly. you're sticking with me. when we return, the fight to protect ivf. it's become more urgent as republicans step up their assault. tammy duckworth will be our guest after a very short break. guest after a very short break meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app.

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my infertility would become one of the most heartbreaking struggles. my miscarriage, more painful than any battlefield wound so it's a little discouraging when a majority male court when people like me who aren't able to have kids should be in jail cells and not taking care of their babies in nurseries. i know i'm not alone when i struggle to understand how politicians who support this can

call themselves pro-life. >> senator duckworth opening up about her personal fertility challenges while advocating for a bill that would create a national right to ivf and other fertility treatments. this push by senator duckworth and her bill's cosponsor, patty murray, comes in the wake of the alabama supreme court's decision that frozen embryos are children. the decision left americans terrified their state could be next. while republicans have claimed to support ivf treatment, their actions speak otherwise. republican senator cindy hyde smith blocked the bill claiming while she supports ivf, the issue should be left to the states. we've seen what happens when this issue is left to the states. the guardian reporting quote, lawmakers in more than a dozen states have considered efforts to endow embryos or fetuses with legal rights and at least three states have personhood

legislation since february. joining us now, tammy duckworth. she testified today for assaults on reproductive freedom. i look forward to the day when people don't have to relive and share their pain so that way, we can be treated as people. as someone who has gone through ivf, your first thoughts when the alabama ruling came down. >> it finally happened. back in 2014, my fertility doctor said if these laws start to pass, what we're doing today could be illegal and what we're doing could actually mean that i could be convicted of manslaughter because we were at the time, deciding to discard three fertilized eggs that were non viable. if he had implanted those three eggs, it means they would have caused a miscarriage and so we discarded those three and he said this could be an act of murder or manslaughter if person

hood laws pass and here we are ten years later that basically bestows personhood on a fertilized egg. >> how present. and there are cascades consequences. tell me where your bill stands and given what we're seeing in the house where you have a republican congressman from new york who is in a district that president biden carried during the last election signing on as a cosponsor of the house legislation. do you see any such opportunities in the senate? >> it's been crooked. the republicans, and nobody has come and said tammy, i want to sign off on your bill and i've introduced this the last several congress' and even in this latest one where they're stepping up saying they support it, they have not come forward to support it. all it says is you have a

statutory right to seek assisted reproductive technology. you have as a doctor, the right to offer it if you want to and you have as an insurance company, the right to cover it if you want to, but it doesn't force anybody to seek it, cover it, to offer it. it just says if you want to start a family and need to get a little help and you're doing it all within the medical standards of practice, then you should have the right to do that and not a single one of those ivf loving politicians on the republican side have decided to come forward to co-sponsor. >> take a listen to what mike johnson said. >> i know you said you support ivf. there's this question of embryos in the process, they are destroyed, disposed of, if you believe life begins at conception, fertilization and i know you do, do you see that as murder? >> it's something that we've got to grapple with. >> senator, my colleague has a question about that. >> hi, senator. thank you so much for joining

us. and you know, i feel like i should say that i had my twins through ivf and you know, i'm glad that we can talk about it. but i'm curious when we talk about these embryonic personhood bills, is the republicans' inability to legislate here political or do you think it really is they are not understanding how, like in alabama, we had a, they indemnified ivf clinics so if they killed an embryonic person, right, they would not face prosecution. i mean, is this that they've just written themselves into a corner with the legislation or are they really worried about political pushback for ivf? >> all they care about is political pushback because they could stop this by saying that a fertilized egg is not a human being. on day one, it's not an embryo. it's just a fertilized egg. they're saying once it's fertilized it is a person with

equal rights to the woman who would carry it. that alabama bill did that. it didn't say it's still killing a person. it's saying we just won't prosecute you. so it opens the door in the future where prosecution could happen. this isn't just about access to reproductive technology. this is also about contraception. remember an iud implants implantation of fertilized egg. in illinois, we're getting women traveling to illinois from as far as away as texas to have an iud implanted because their dock doctors in texas are afraid they could be prosecuted which is a device that prevents fertilized eggs from being implanted. they're talking out of both sides of their mouth. they say they support ivf yet over 100 republicans have signed on to the personhood bill. >> i'm glad you brought that up

t idea you have women from texas traveling to illinois. so often, we talk about this as red and blue states when in reality, there are consequences for all states. you have political reporting that governor pritzker, governors in other democratic state, moving to make their states ivf sanctuaries in the wake of the alabama decision. what does that mean for women in red states? what does that mean for women in blue states who also need care from that facility? it seems like a big mess. >> it is and it's very dangerous for women because what you're finding is a lot of doctors and ob-gyns, they're leaving their practices and moving to states like illinois. that's good for illinois and we welcome them with open arms but that, i worry about my sisters in all the red states. all the moms and moms to be who need healthcare and they're not going to have the obs in their state to take care of them.

already, america is the only increasing nation with an increasing mortality rate. that's only going make it worse. >> that chasm is going to continue to widen. senator tammy duckworth, thank you so much for taking the time to join us. molly is sticking with us. we'll be right back. mollisy sticking with us. we'll be right back. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya helps you choose the right amounts without over or under investing.

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there's news, and there's good news. like thousands of patients receiving free life changing surgeries, from volunteer doctors and nurses on hospital ships. all made possible by donations. we love good news. earlier this week, arizona state senator burch took to the floor of the legislature to tell what was a heartbreaking story.

pregnancy was not viable in post rural america, detailing everything she was forced to go to. the laws her own colleagues voted for. >> first, i was required to have another ultrasound. i had one because legislation has forced me to do that. then i got to sit through an exhaustive list of absolute disinformation that was read off to me. i was told there were alternatives to abortion. parenting or adoption among them. as if delivering a healthy baby is an option for me. from where i sat t only reason i had to hear those things was in a cruel and really uninformed attempt by outside forces to shame and coerce and frighten me into making a different decision other than the one i knew was right for me. >> senator burch is far from the only woman facing severe health challenges while carrying a

nonviable pregnancy. npr reporting on the impact. quote, pregnant women have been given risky, unnecessary surgeries, denied swift treatment for miscarriages and ectopic pregnancy, forced to wait until their life is at risk. molly, i look forward to the day when women do not have to share the stories of their own heartbreak so they are regarded as people in their own right. in the meantime, the power of that story is hard to oversee. >> i wrote a piece for msnbc about this study that came out yesterday from lift louisiana. in it, it documents a lot of doctors, many of whom were spoke anonymously because they were worried about blowback. they all talked about how they were practicing basically in fear of these elected republicans and one of the i

thought scariest phenomenons that i read about in that study was a lot of these ob-gyns is not seeing pregnant women until the second trimester. because there's much higher rate of miscarriage in the first trimester and they're worried. they're just so scared of losing their licenses. being fined hundreds of thousands of dollars or ending up in jail. >> anyone who has sat in one of those appointments where you have trouble finding the heart beat for 30 seconds, for a minute, and it feels like an eternity to you know what is it is like to have that fear. there's something just so visceral about this conversation. yes, this is about policy. when you hear senator talk about it, you're reminded that policy sometimes happens in rooms where no one who's actually had the life experience is weighing in on what that should look like. that the entire script, the entire protocol is written to torture and it's presupposing

that they know why you are there. right? >> and i thought what was really important that the senator talked about was this idea of maternal mortality. maternal fetal mortality, which in this country, is shockingly bad. we are an affluent country. we have lots of doctors here. we have shockingly bad maternal fetal mortality and much worse. about two times worse for women of color. and indigenous women. so what i think is so interesting and terrifying and heartbreaking about post roe america is it is about poels world america is this is a significantly more dangerous place to be. i would like to see this health equity, limiting choices from that npr reporting from the study out of louisiana. in one of the most extreme examples of how pregnancy care has changed, doctors described cases of women who experienced their water breaking early in pregnancy before the fetus was viable. some of these women were forced

to undergo caesarian section surgeries to empty their uterus and avoid infection instead of receiving an abortion procedure or medication. i mean, it's bad medicine, right? >> right. >> it is not putting the science first, which we have also seen again and again across the world. >> what it is, doctors who are afraid to treat. doctors are living in fear. when you read that report, they talk about how the a.g. in louisiana did send a letter to some of these doctors, we will put you in jail. if you look at 1973, dock tors felt they could not treat pregnant women would this anvil over their heads, they could go to jail if something looked like an abortion and that is why these federal bans that trump is trying to push to look more moderate, these federal bans would, in fact, limit abortion

everywhere, right? but they would limit abortion and you would have doctors afraid to treat even in blue states. >> thank you so much for being with us and talking through all of this. the thank you for spending the hour with us. senator eva birch who you saw there at the top of the segment she is going to join joy reid on "the reid out" at 7 p.m. eastern. another quick break for us. we'll be right back. steve? with a laundry detergent. (♪♪) gain flings. seriously good scent.

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alabama fresh off starting that nationwide concern over ivf access just passed sprawling legislation targeting dei programs at public universities. legislation also limits the teaching of divisive concepts surrounding race, gender and identity and for bids public universities and colleges from allowing transgender people to use bathrooms that align with their gender identity. free speech, nonprofit america was quick to point out the similarities that this bill has to florida's, quote, stopping woke act. alabama is even more restricttive. what's clear is that the campaign against dei programs is only accelerating as more than 30 states have introduced bills banning or limiting dei initiatives during their current legislations. alabama's bill has been sent to alabama governor kay ivy. if she signs it, it would take effect on october 1st.

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thank you, as always, for spending part of your wednesday with us. we are so very grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. high, ari. >> hi, alecia. i'm ari melber back with you after getting vacation time. we are hitting the ground running because we are learning new information about the man special counsel jack smith identified as trump employee 5 in the classified documents indictment of defendant trump. that witness, number 5, is my special guest tonight. he will be speaking out live about jack