candidates. last night, christine dockly beat six other candidates to become democraticdemocratic -- we won. thank you so much to the voters of ohio house district 6 who put their trust in me. i am proud to be your democratic nominee. i promise to do the best. >> christine cockley, democratic nominee for the house of representatives. getting tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> civil fraud case. what's next wort civil case. if he can't pay the over $4

million penalty. then a controversial law in texas is back on hold. we'll break down what officials there and in mexico are saying about it all. plus, steph's spotlight conversation about the future of the workplace post-covid, as the 11th hour gets under way this wednesday night. greetings everyone. i'm symone sanders-townsend. tonight, former president trump is now staring at monday deadline to secure a massive bond to appeal his civil fraud case in new york. earlier this week, his lawyers admitted, they were struggling to find a company willing to post a bond for the $464 million judgment against trump and his co-defendants. the list of options appears to be getting shorter. if trump can't secure the bond in four days. will new york attorney general

leticia james seized the assets. in a new court filing, james urged a state appeals court to ignore trump's claim about getting the bond. she added that if he and others were able to defend the bond, they should have consented to real estate bond to satisfy the judgment. earlier today, one of trump's lawyers spoke out about trump's limited oppositions. >> forcing him to sell prize properties such as trump tower. to pursue his appeal is manifested justice. and it deprives him of that process. we can't fix that. it is intentionally to interfere in the election, to hurt president trump. meanwhile, nbc news reports donald trump and some of his inner circle are becoming increasingly frustrated. nbc says trump is, quote, now,

hitting up the high-dollar donor for enough cash. but also, to see whether they might guarantee his bond. according to a member of the presumptive republican nominees team. the source added, not to be named, in order to speak candidly about his conversations. the trump campaign did not immediately respond to a request for comment. with that, folks, let's bring in our leadoff panel. senior executive editor. and trump biographer. he wrote the book, trump nation. the art of being the donald. molly jiang fast is here. and legal eagle, barbara mcquade is here. veteran prosecutor. and former attorney for the eastern district of michigan. her new book, "attack from

within" is out now. and let me tell you, it is a good read. tim, your book is a good read, too, by the way. you have covered donald trump for a very long time. and long is long. what sticks out to you in this new reporting from nbc news. that donald trump is, quote/unquote frustrated. >> i imagine he's more than frustrated. i don't think there's anything surprising about that. because he's in danger of all of his toys getting taken away. and the clock is ticking very quickly. and i think at least everything that comes out of his camp thus far, doesn't look like they have any good possibilities for forestalling the new york state attorney general from attaching his asset. in the clip you had from malenna hobba, why she said if those assets are attached, the damage will be done. and they'll have no recourse if done on appeal. that's simply not true. the attorney general can attach

the assets, without selling them, and essentially keep them in escrow, in case she needs to liquidate them to make good on the judgment against him. the problem is trump is he has spent decades playing the smoke- and-mirrors game with his assets. he's never been transparent about how much debt he's pledged against his various property. and here's overestimated the value, inflated the value, lied about the value. other things he owns. and part of that, he's played with the media to inflate his wealth, in order to get more attention. and now he is faced with the very embarrassing and ugly prospect of having it all open to the public because the state of new york is going to have to assess what they can really get. which i think means almost a line-by-line assessment of how much equity trump has in each of these properties. again, in this clip you just showed of alina hobba. she mentioned trump.

trump doesn't own most of trump tower. it is comprised of condos of other people. he has has own condo there. and he controls the retail space on the main floor. but that alone is very unlikely to seth the state a.g. so then moves on to 40 wall street. and in each case, they're going to make a market assessment of how much value he has in it. this is like groundhog day. he was in a similar situation in the early 1990s, where he almost went personally bankrupt. i don't think he's in a spot where he's going to go bankrupt. but he owes the banks a lot of money. and engaged in turn selling off or turning over most of what he's had in the time and he's revisiting that a decade later,

and it's largely of his own doing. >> a mentor of mine said history is unbroken continuity. and seems like that here. we read attorney general james' argument that she filed study. and i'm wondering, what does it mean? because there was a lot of legalese. she said that trump and other defendants. to satisfy the judgment. can you break this down for us? >> yeah. so what she means there is that one of the things that donald trump has is an option, is to let the court take an interest in some of his real property. the property doesn't have to be sold or liquidated. but interest just goes into the possession of the court. holding it sort of in escrow. holding the property there. so that's an option here.

you can have leticia james herself be the one to put interest on the property. of course. but the idea that trump can get away with it and do pennys on the dollar or a hundred million, instead of paying the 400 million here is absurd. i think she's suggesting there are options to put attachments on some of has properties. >> molly, donald trump has really spent his entire public life, bragging about his wealth and his power. tim alluded to that a little earlier. and frankly, a lot of that helped him get to the white house. now, donald trump is scrambling to get this bond together. what is your take on his position right now? >> well, it's interesting to watch people make excuses for him, right? his supporters. i mean, he's supposedly a billionaire. but he can't secure a bond for half a billion dollars. so it means that he's obviously not. and there's so many time little when he see him talking, you

know, in depositions and interviews about how much cash he has, right? you see him again and again, say we have so much cash. so much cash. obviously if they had so much cash, they'd be able to get the bond. it does unravel, you know, sort of the myth of trump, in a very definitive way. unfortunately, i think a lot of trump supporters are far enough in this sort of trump information vortex, where they only believe what he tells them. and not sort of what more kind of nonpartisan evidence would dictate. so i do think in that sense, trump probably still has the hold on them. >> you know, tim, you wrote that trump's financial challenges make him a national security threat. and i found that a very interesting point. because if donald trump were not running for president but rather being appointed as a cabinet secretary, if you will, his current financial information would be able to make him serve because of a

flag. i want to point what his attorney alina hobba said. >> is there any effort on the part of your team to secure this money through another country? saudi arabia or russia, as joy beyharseems to think. >> we have to follow those rules. >> tim, what do you make of that response? >> well, she didn't say no, did she? so it's a nonresponse response. and donald trump was a national security threat during his first term for financial reasons. it explains, you know, his dances with dictators like vladimir putin. he was trying to do a deal in moscow, a real estate deal, when he ran for president back in 2016. so this is not a new issue. and it's always been hanging over his administration during -- hung over during his

administration, first time through. as to what was motivating policy making. was he simply lining up. jared kushner got $2 billion. and the difference between now and trump's first tour through the white house is he's in a much more desperate financial strait now. so if he was an easy mark for foreign entities that wanted to influence u.s. policy by simply getting a financial hook into the oval office, and that was true back in 2016. it is even more true now. and i think if trump winds up getting bailed out of his current mess by a foreign entity of any sort, that should be publicly disclosed. and it should be scrutinized. and voters should look at that and understand it for what it

is. is that a presidential candidate is possibly being co- opted for money? >> molly, what say you? >> yeah. i mean, look. i think if he takes money from the saudis or foreign interest like that. it's going to be very tough for him then to run for president. i mean, obviously he'll do it. because he's trump. and you know, he'll never say this is not appropriate. but i think for biden, he'll be able to run on that. and it will be, you know, a huge advantage for him. so i think that is some of why they're being cautious about doing it. i am surprised, though, you see on television. lots of trump people, you know, sort of trump-friendly pundits saying, where is the money? you know? because there are enough republican billionaires which should give him the money. i think is pretty unusual to watch these trump pundits trying to make the case for donald trump. it's quite interesting to watch. and again, the law should be the law for everyone. it should be this -- trump

seems to always kind of get away with it. but this is what it is. you know? and it's not really -- you know, he does seem to always, like, be able to skirt the -- what he's supposed to do. but this is the fine. and he should have to pay it. >> this is the fine. so, barb. you're going to get the last word on this. first of all, is taking money from a foreign entity, legal in this respect? or is it -- and is it only questionable because he is a candidate for president? and then secondly. what happens if donald trump can't get this bond? what happens on monday? >> yeah. so if he wants to just take out a loan from some foreign entity, there's nothing that really precludes him from doing that. it is illegal for a candidate to take a campaign donation that is from a foreign source. it cannot be framed as that. if it were simply a loan that he was using, so he could pay

this appeal bond, i guess that would be something that he is permitted to do. but as tim said, and as molly said, so incredibly dangerous for a candidate for political office, when somebody gets a security clearance in government. one of the questions they're asked is whether they have any foreign ties where anyone has anyone has leverage over them, for which they could be blackmailed. and if you owe a debt to a foreign country and you can't make good on that debt, they're going to have leverage over you and be compromised. so what happens on monday. i think that one of the things that is an option for the judge is to take security interest in the real estate property of donald trump to make good on the bond. but he can't just walk away there it. can't just say, i'm going to put up smaller amount. t-ltd reason we have appeal bonds is to discourage people from taking a frivolous claim and delaying a judge something they owe. there is no constitutional

right to an appeal. there isy nodue process to right to appeal. they are granted under law in certain instances. but one of the conditions in the state of new york is that you pay this appeal bond in escrow, so if and when you lose, the money can be handed over to the prevailing party in the case. so unless they come up with some real deal for has property, then he's going to have to forfeit his ability to appeal in this case. >> molly, i actually want to give you the last, last word. because i really feel like your latest piece that looks at donald trump's vision for america and whether the media apparatus really understands what he is doing when it comes to the threat to democracy. is a very important point that is tied to all of this. what is your biggest fear? >> i mean, the big fear is that he normalizes autocracy. and either he wins and becomes a dictator. or he sets the stage for a republican party that no longer

believes in democratic norms and elevates someone who is even smarter and better organized and not as self- destructive. and the next time we have a sort of, even more, you know, autocratic, autocrat. and i think that -- i think is that is the very big worry that a lot of us have. >> a chilling place to end. molly, tim, barb. thank you all very much. when we come back. texas wants the power to arrest and deport people coming to the southern border. the white house says only the feds can do that. the showdown over controversial immigration law. and later, are you in the office? are you hybrid? fully remote? our spot light conversation about the future of work. the 11th hour, just getting under way on a wednesday night. choosing a treatment for your chronic migraine - 15 or more headache days a month, each lasting 4 hours or more - can be overwhelming. so, ask your doctor about botox®. botox® prevents headaches in adults with chronic migraine

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the legal whiplash continues tonight over controversial texas immigration law, sb4. now, a federal appeals court has officially put the law back on hold, only hours after the supreme court allowed it to take effect. my colleague, morgan cheskey has it. >> 24 hours after giving the green light for it to begin.

today, an appealing hearing over the texas law known as sb4. which allows states and local authorities to hold migrants. the judges appearing skeptical of the law. >> this saturday first time, it seems to me, that a state has claimed that they had the right to remove illegal aliens. >> governor greg abbott is standing by the law, saying texas is taking action because president biden has not stopped a record number of migrants. >> what's going on at the border is nothing short of catastrophic. >> texas had already placed razor wire and buoys to deter from crossing illegally. so far, most illegal crossings have been in arizona and california. a trend some say is due to the tougher policies in texas. zapata county sheriff, raymondo is in favor of the law.

>> i do support it. what we're targeting is the violence, the cartel, violent offenders that may want to come across. >> sheriff tom has reservations. >> on its face. are you in favor of sb4? >> not until i get more more information on how it's going to work. >> and do you know when that information will be? >> no, i don't. >> his depension center already at capacity. >> we're in the middle, seeing what is going to happen. but it's more like politics, but between the state and federal government. that's the way i see it. >> and where does that put you? >> in the middle. like they're not concerned about us. they're just concerned about them. for more on this, i want to bring in msnbc analyst, julio castro. he is the former secretary of housing and urban development. but most importantly for this conversation, he is the mayor

of san antonio, texas, for five years. secretary castro, what do you make of all of this? and what have you been hearing from people in texas? >> it's good to be with you, symone. the maverick county sheriff said it more than anything else. this is about politics. this is about greg abbott's politics, whether it's buzzing migrants to chicago or washington, d.c. or other cities, or doing this "show me your papers" law, he's using migrants as a political stepping stone. because he thinks he's going to be trump's vice president. in the meantime, it's creating a lot of anxiety, not only among migrants and folks here seeking asylum. including people who are seeking asylum, the legal way. it's also creating anxiety among the latino community in texas. latinos make up 40% of texas now. that's a lot of people in the

state who could potentially be under reasonable suspicion, based on how they look, for being stopped because some law enforcement officer thinks that they might be here illegally. so this type of law makes no sense. it's about politics. and i'm glad that the fifth circuit, at least now, temporarily, has enjoined it. >> s were you know, senator castro, i want to break down the law that you were talking about. because this bill would not only allow state and local police officers to arrest people suspected of being here illegally, right? but it would also allow the deportation of migrants to mexico, regardless of the country that that person is from. now, president lopez obrador of mexico said they're not going to accept the return of any folks to his territory from texas. there's so many things here, right? because mexico is one of our closest and most valued

economic partners. but then what we're describing in this bill, in this law, would be -- sounds very eerily like profiling to me. do you believe that governor abbott has thought through the civil rights implications, as well as the foreign policy implications of this law? >> i don't. and frankly, symone, i don't think he cares i think what he wants is the appearance of accounting as tough as he can possibly be on migrants. but the fact is, this does involve our relationship with mexico, and mexico has clearly said, look. we're not just going to take anybody that you put back on our doorstep. and even in court, lawyers for texas have had a problem describing how exactly this law is going to work. they're not going to get cooperation from the federal government necessarily. they're not going to get cooperation from the mexican government. and as you pointed out, there are a whole bunch of people that might get caught up in this that are not even from

mexico. that is not their home country. so this is a law that makes no sense. it's a terrific example of why time and again, the supreme court has said, hey, states. it's not your job to be the enforcer of immigration laws. that's the federal government's job. and the country benefits from having law one enforcement mechanism. one division of government that is doing that. and it's not divided among the states. my hope is that the supreme court is going to say that again, like they did when arizona passed their show me your papers law, more than a decade ago. sb1070, that should happen, if they follow precedent. but here's the thing. what has changed in those years? what's changed is that we have a supreme court that is not far far to the right. and shows respect when it comes to hot button right-wing issues. like dobbs, like the affirmative action case. the question is, could this be

the next precedent to drop? >> you know, justice sonia sotomayor invites further chaos and crisis in immigration enforcement. immigration, obviously, right about now, is a buzz word, if you will. a lot of republican elected officials in congress like to talk about it. but again, there's a bill on the table that, you know, elected officials have just voted for republicans rejected because donald trump told them to do so. do you agree with justice sotomayor? and what are the solutions here? because this can't be it? >> i agree with justice sotomayor. she pointed out that this would create chaos. it would create potentially 50 different versions of how you enforce the immigration law. and would make the federal government's job in processing people and keeping track of folks and determining who should be here and who

shouldn't, that much harder. it would create more confusion than order. so i think she's right. and the legislation -- look. i disagreed with part of the legislation that was compromised legislation. but it did have some good things in there. especially more resources for these southern counties, whether they're in california or arizona or texas. and also, more judges to process asylum claims. beefing up the system, so that it can handle the number of people that are claiming asylum. and at the same time, we need to make sure that we don't forget about our values. we have to treat people with humanity and with compassion. if we can accomplish those things, then i think that we can deal with what has been a heavier influx of people that goes in cycles. >> secretary castro, i've talked to a lot of republicans of border towns, and they say

the same thing you just said, often. >> thank you. it. republicans wanted their hearing to be about hunter biden. but democrats had their own star witness. today'sfiery moments on capitol hill, when "the 11th hour" continues. when "the 11th hour" continues. ckin. we're not talking about practice? no. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours. ♪(voya)♪ there are some things that work better together. like your workplace benefits

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sold for only 50 cents. this ipad pro sold for less than $34. and this nintendo switch, sold for less than $20. go to dealdash.com and see how much you can save. it was a chaotic day in the house of representatives. the republican-led oversight committee. they headline an inquiry of

their impeachment of president biden. let me tell you, it did not go well. it was underscored by democrats' key witness. exgiuliani associate, lev parnas. >> people have been lied to. i found precisely zero evidence of biden's corruption in ukraine. no credible sources ever provided proof of criminal activity. the only information pushed onto biden campaign, has come from one source and one source only, russia and its counterparts. >> back with us tonight. msnbc political analyst, juanita tolliver. she is host of the when a day.

and bill, his book, yet why we did it "is out now. tim, i love the book. republicans, they say they have no evidence. they say they are. but how much longer can this go on? >> thank you, symone. i think it can go on until november. because they haven't had any evidence have they? i was writing this back in 2020. anyone that looked at this. this isn't ancient history. all the stuff was happening in the late 2010s. ask you saw that joe biden was demanding that the ukrainians stop -- or excuse me. that ukrainians prosecute corruption. that's what joe biden was doing. everybody that was involved, when he was vice president. everyone who was involved then said so. so this whole thing has been

made up from the start. i don't find lev parnas to be credible. but all he's doing is saying things that are obviously true for anybody who has been paying attention. and parnas may be the guy who fabricated the claim that joe biden has $5 million in a bunch of secret bank accounts. this guy is a russian intelligence asset. and he's been getting money from business partners. and this whole thing is a total sham and embarrassment. frankly, i think the republicans are so embarrassing that a lot of the news media has been giving them a pass on this. and given it a clown show. it's been members of congress, smearing this president and his family for three years now. >> i mean, the former director of the cia, john brennan, has said on our air that at this point, republican members of congress are literally spreading russian propaganda.

it's insane to say the least. that's what i thought of the hearing today. juanita what did you think of this hearing? and doesn't congress have actual work to do? >> imagine? >> they apparently do deliver the funding. imagine delivering something the american people want, instead of this. again, as tim pointed out, no evidence. it's a complete sham. and republicans have nothing to show for themselves going into the 2024 election cycle. remember where they're doing this, though. this is all to appease an audience of one in donald trump. that is their motivation here. they're trying to weaponize their positions in congress to do that. but like you said, symone, democrats are embarrassing them in the process, right? like with this lev parnas testimony, i agree. he's not the most. but to have him go out there and state facts and name names, feels clear. i feel like the whole moment it that captured this was the hot- mike moment, when i don't know

who it was said, "this is jurassic park. we've never seen anything like this before." and they're making the case for why the public should not hand them the keys to congress again after 2024. >> literally, the people's house of representatives. okay, juanita. new topic. yesterday, donald trump suggested he would be open to supporting a 15-week national abortion ban with exceptions. but then last week, he was concerned that picking someone for vice president with too much staunch an opposition on abortion would drag down the ticket. what do you believe is going on here, juanita? >> i feel like this is not a drill, symone. and i need people to take this man at his word. when he talks about a national abortion ban, he means it. when he talks about 15 weeks, when pregnant people are just realizing they're pregnant. he means it, right? i feel like this is coming from the mouth of someone who has beat his chest repeatedly,

about single-handedly, overturning roe v. wade. you this is not a drill. and i appreciate that democrats have really been laying all of the harms that we're seeing as a result of abortions across the country, since roe was overturned at trump and republicans' feet. this is something we know was an immobilizing issue. but we also know that it has very real daily harms for pregnant people across the country. people who want their pregnancy, but abortion is the only viable option for them to save their own lives. when trump says something like this, it needs to be dismissed. but emphasizing the real harm this causes for pregnant women day in and day out. >> tim, on a scale of one to 10, how big is the problem of the issue of abortion. for not just donald trump, but for republicans at large who are on the ballot right now?

# >> i mean, probably a 9? 8 1/2? it's a big problem. it's one of the reasons they didn't have the big red wave in the midterms. it was the far right, denying candidates put up. and threats of abortion. i think so a lot of this evidence, by the way, is look at some of the places, where republicans did well in the midterms. california, new york. what is the reason for that? well, i think a lot of voters in california and new york figured that abortion wasn't really on the ballot there. like they're in a blue state. there wasn't going to be a national abortion ban. sraots a different story in 2024. nowl,now, national abortion ban is on, everybody is going to have to take it seriously. i think it's a very big problem. and under the hood of what all the incoherence from donald trump on this issue is that donald trump knows it's a problem. that's why he's kind of lashing about for what is some compromise that might get him out of this jam. and i don't think there is any

getting him out of this jam. >> well, we will leave it there. tim, juanita, thank you both very much. when we come back, folks. the question is, our new way of working. is it really working out? our favorite lady steph is on the other side of this spotlight conversation. when "the 11th hour" continues. spotlight conversation. when "the 11th hour" continues. despite treatment, it's still not under control. but now i have rinvoq. rinvoq is a once-daily pill that reduces the itch and helps clear the rash of eczema—fast. some rinvoq patients felt significant itch relief as early as 2 days. some achieved dramatic skin clearance as early as 2 weeks. and many taking rinvoq saw clear or almost-clear skin. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal, cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred.

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saint jude, how many lives they do save is just so many. marlo thomas: charlie's progress warms my heart, but memories of little angels like stacy are why we need your help. please become a saint jude partner in hope right now. [music playing] meet ron. ron eats, sleeps and breathes hoops. and there's not a no look pass, double double, or buzzer beater he won't wax poetic on. ad nauseam. but oh how he can nail a software solution like the best high screen pick and roll you've ever seen. you need ron. ron needs a retirement plan. work with principal so we can help you help ron with a retirement and benefits plan that's right for him. let our expertise round out yours. four years after the covid

pandemic began, the way we work seems to be forever changed. many companies now employ full- time remote workers, and even use more of a hybrid model, where employees work from home two or three days a week. meanwhile, big cities are trying to figure out what to do with skwraepts office buildings that now sit empty. it is a massive change of the way we live, with all kinds of ramifications for the economy, aur daily lives, the community and mental health. i have two ideal panelists here. nicholas bloom, economics professor from stanford who has studied work from home for years. >> and arthur brooks, brook, coaurgtd of the book. the you have been working on this for years and years. all of your work is finally playing out. it is only fitting that we are

interviewing you remotely. give us your case of why it's such a great idea. >> i am speaking to you remotely. but i had to spend most of the day in person. i just had six hours of teaching, which i tell you, was very much in person. work-from-home is basically here to stay. it was not like at the peak of the pandemic. it's basically hybrid. >> why do you think it works so well? especially for places -- especially for places that have gone full remote? why do you think it's so great? >> well, full remote is really a very different thing. full remote, there are some challenges. you got productivity around mentoring, around training, around culture. the big upside when you talk to firms it it is incredibly cost effective. so fully remote maybe reduces productivity by 10%.

but saving costs about 10%. then we can hire people nationally or globally, that's saving us maybe another 20 to%. so fully remote is less productivity play but cost play. >> let's talk about the epidemic of loneliness. do you see remote work being connected to that? in theory, people are like, this is great, i'm more efficient. but it only adds to the fact that people are just talking about your job function but not about your life. >> and the truth is, most people who are happy have a best friend at work. and nobody has a zoom best friend. they don't know normal workplace activity. they can't get back to these kinds of relationships. loneliness is funny, stephanie. because it sneaks up on you. people are sometimes lonelier than they understand. they feel a real sense of emptiness in their lives. and they don't know what the

problem is. they'll start to sleep really poorly. that will start to affect their work as well. the other thing that is worth keeping an eye on, people who are fully remote, or almost fully remote, who don't elect to go into the office very much, if they have that election. they don't do as well in their careers. they're starting to get passed over for from motions. starting to see a two-tier work system. >> out of sight, out of mind, promotional time f. people don't see their workers, they don't think to elevate them? >> yes. and quite tpraeurpbgly, the productivity is not quite good for people who are are not quite there. people will elect not to be there for a reason. be there for a reason. a place nice and sunny, i will live in tucson even though the job is in san francisco and that says something about you and the employer will notice

it. >> just two hours ago in class i surveyed 40 of my undergrads and said how many days would you like to work from home, and the average is one. so they were basically saying we want to go in four days a week. what you do see is as folks get into their 30s and 40s and have young kids and other things in life, child care, somebody says they are helping look after their grandmother and other priorities getting to play. it is a good idea to go into work four days a week right out of college, when you are in your 30s and 40s you are possibly fully remote. so there is a mix of things but broadly i am aligned, and your career you generally see people

that come in four days get promoted faster. >> you say the idea of a returnr to work died in 2023, i know it is not a full return to work, it is a hybrid but what is your take on what has happened in cities where we have massive empty office buildings, all of the local lunch places have e gone out of business, the dry cleaners, it is not the individual workers responsibility to solve this real estate crisis but how do you see this play out? >> to be clear money is still being spent, the economy is g doing well but it is spent in different places. so the center of cities like san francisco, less new york, fr but seattle, some of the east coast cities are struggling but suburbs are booming. people working from home, it is

friday i do not get the sandwich at lunch in the city center but i go to my local restaurant. the hardest thing is the big city skyscrapers downtown. interestingly, the old ones built before 1930 typically tend to be tall and skinny before electricity was around so you needed to build buildings for daylight and they convert to residential easily. the problem is buildings built in the 60s and 70s, the massive ugly buildings with vast floor plans and nobody is sure what will happen. some will be left empty for a while. yes that is probably the biggest problem, modern public office buildings that are now empty. >> how do you think this will play out? in places like new york where you have so many people in the office, you notice it less. in dc many people that work in

the government are still remote. >> it is a double whammy for the cities, many of them are poorly managed. these policies that led city centers to being less livable and at the same time people are not going there to work. you will see the effects. the less people will go there when they have the choice of not going to work. that is really hurting places i like downtown san francisco where you can get office space for a fraction of what you would get it for. the downtown areas may be different 10 years from now. >> before we go, do you see a age or demographic disconnect where the oldest people in the workforce cannot get their head around work from home even after the pandemic. it only works if i see you

handing me this report and at the same time there is younger people that only no remote work and see no value in coming back to the office, do you see a generational disconnect? >> yes, the way it works out is, a lot of folks in the 20s want to come in four days a week and one of the big reasons is they want to be mentored. somebody has to do the mentoring. that means 30 and 40-year-olds are the folks that say i have kids, i want to play golf, i will work from home three days a week. i talk to ceos who say it is hard to trade it off. so ceos need to get the middle managers in, not every day but three days a week to train the folks below them. >> yes remember there is a huge part of america for whom this is a irrelevant conversation.

my son is a manager at a construction firm and he is walking around constructions sites all day long and working from home means nothing to him. my other son is a math teacher and he has to come in. the result is, what is this weird conversation? for them it is how they live their lives and do their jobs. >> thank you so much. we will have to have this conversation again in a year er and see what the world is looking like. i appreciate you joining us. pr staff will be back in the office tomorrow. on that note i wish you a very good night. you can see me and my cohost every saturday and sunday on the weekend. grab a cup of coffee and join us at 8:00 in the morning right here on msnbc. from all of our colleagues across the networks, thank you

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