cardinals next weekend. i think he'll be fine. there's too many times willing to offer him $300 million plus for them all to be wrong. >> let's hope for the dodgers sake and all the dodgers fans out there, myself included, that he shakes off those cobwebs and is okay. bob nightengale, thank you so much for joining us. we appreciate it. and that is going to do it for me this hour. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ hi everyone, it is 4:00 in new york. i'm alicia menendez in for nicolle wallace. you can almost hear it, the tick tick tick, as the disgraced, twice impeached ex-president slowly runs out of time to post this massive, nearly half a billion dollars bond in a civil fraud case. donald trump has until monday to make it happen or face the consequences, consequences that

could put his pride and joy, his real estate empire in the cross hairs. estates, hotels, golf courses, the iconic trump tower all properties valued by the trump org as a much higher level than appraisers valued them. and all of them, fair game for new york attorney general tish james to seize if trump fails to meet his financial obligation by the deadline. with time running out. nbc news is reporting the former president has grown, quote, frustrated and has now resorted to, quote, hitting up high dollar donors, not just for campaign cash but also to see whether they might guarantee his bond. the ex-president is huddled up with advisers, quote, gaming out options, including ways trump could appeal judge engoron's ruling without having to put the bond up, and what would happen if they can't secure the required sum. and trump's team believes that quote, seizing trump's assets or

liquidating them could prove to be rocket fuel for his campaign. there does appear to be one clear way out. bankruptcy. an option that the "washington post" reports trump is resisting out of concern that it could hurt his reelection bid. quote, even though bankruptcy could alleviate his immediate cash crunch, it carries risk for a candidate who has marketed himself as a winning businessman and his greatest appeal to voters some advisers say is his financial success. tim o'brien who wrote the biography of the disgraced ex-president put, this is trump's worst nightmare. if that wasn't enough to give him nightmares, consider this. james has registered the fraud judgment with the westchester county clerk. that might sound inknock would you say -- innocuous but allows her to get liens on two of trump's most valuable

properties, trump's golf club in west chester and the 12 acre estate. the clock is ticking. that is where we start with former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistant attorney harry litman, and former republican congressman and msnbc analyst, david jolly, and with me at the table, senior executive editor at bloomberg, and msnbc political analyst, tim o'brien is here. bankruptcy, it would be the seventh time, i think, trump declared bankruptcy, an option he doesn't want right now, though the post reporting a bankruptcy filing could delay for months or years the requirement that he pay the judgment. a federal judge could be charged with the time consuming task of determining how and when each of his creditors, including the state would be paid. that sound like a win for trump, given his desire for delay. >> it's a win for the old trump. i don't think for the current candidate trump, he's done it, as you say, half a dozen times

in the past. it freezes the line backers, more like for years, while everything is sifted through. it gets all the pressure off. he runs the campaign. i think there's a political close to imperative not to do it. the other thing he doesn't want to do is having tish james decide what she's going to go after. so, first, i just want to say, the clock is ticking, but these contests have a way sometimes of going into overtime. and there may still be some maneuvers left, for starters, the appellate court might reduce the amount. he might ask james for a bit more time. but i think if push really really really comes to shove, for political reasons, he'll want to avoid bankruptcy, and for financial and sort of pride reasons, he won't want james to have her pick of his crown jewels so he'll wind up selling things, not 40 wall street, not

bedminster before the grim reaper literally comes down. but even if she moves on properties, he still has legal maneuvers to do, but that, i think, will be his two kind of guide posts, don't declare bankruptcy, and don't let her choose what she's going after first. >> tim, do you agree? >> well, i think we should get kind of clear on the various time frames here, because it's not like he can just push a bankruptcy button. >> sure. >> you know, or just sell some assets. if there's an extension of the time frame, if the appellate court intervenes beyond the petitions, i imagine that tish james is ready to do this at dawn on monday morning if she needs to. >> what an image. >> yeah. and the other thing, you know, if he wants to put this through the bankruptcy court, he'll have to petition the court. those are often dense filings. he would have had to set that in

motion, i would think, if he's going to do that. maybe he has, but we have seen no indication that he has. the other thing that i find kind of humorous in all of this is this idea he would want her to seize the assets because thereby he could own the libs, this idea that they would put a chain around trump tower or somebody would pick up 40 wall street and stick in tish's pockets. it will be digital transactions, there won't be the kind of public drama he thrives on to show that he's being persecuted as he did in the courtroom, which is why he showed up in the courtroom. >> to put a fine point on what tim said there, this from the "washington post," what trump land is saying, he would rather have letitia james show up with the sheriff at 40 wall street and make a huge stink about it than say he's bankrupt. he thinks about what's going to play politically well for him. bankruptcy doesn't play well for him, but having her try to take his properties away might.

your thoughts. >> yeah, look, i think give donald trump some more time to reconsider bankruptcy, because, listen, he can flip a script on anybody, and his followers will believe whatever he says. the reality is bankruptcy is really the best option for donald trump and gives him the best ability to really delay actual consequences, which is his complete strategy. because otherwise donald trump is in a situation, but so is the nation, alicia, where sometime in the next week, someone's likely going to own donald trump. and it could be a bad actor, a foreign actor. it could be a putin, an mbs, an elon musk or letitia james in the state of new york. if donald trump is looking at actually having someone else now in control of his assets, yes, donald trump can use that for grievance, he really doesn't like that scenario because without real estate, who is donald trump? i mean, in some ways, his real estate empire, at least the image of it is better than his own presidency. so i don't know, i think let's

give donald trump a little bit of time to think about the bankruptcy option. he can play politically whatever he needs to, and his followers will buy it. >> tim, you told "the washington post," quote, donald trump's worst nightmare from a personal and financial situation, that's what you called this case, and you think we can expect him to get angrier and more aggressive, that is the trump of it all. there's also what david is saying, though, which is the real threat here are people who might want to gain influence over donald trump? >> right. he's a national security threat, and he was when he was in the white house the first time around. you know, we know through some congressional investigations that he got at least, i think, $70 million or so from foreign entities through his hotel in washington. he was trying to do a deal in moscow when he was running for president. that would explain why he was trying to court vladimir putin so closely. it's always about dollar signs in his eyes. the difference between, i think, his first tour through the oval office and a potential new tour is that he's under much more

financial duress, and he's clearly scrambling to try to find a solution to this current financial problem, and that makes him a mark for any foreign entity that wants to have influence in the white house, and they can get it pretty cheaply. jared kushner got $2 billion from the saudis on an investment fund, on a thin track record as an investor. a lot of thought that was the saudis currying favor with the trump white house. i think that comes into play now, and i think voters should be aware of it. i think there's little that can be done to stop it. he's a private citizen, running for president, but he will have intelligence briefings after the nomination. and i think it's a real problem. >> harry, there's another element here. judge engoron issued an order today, strengthening the powers of the court appointed monitor. what does that tell you? >> well, first, it tells me something we already knew.

he doesn't really trust trump. and also trump is trying to use it to his advantage to say all the guarantees that you need are already in place. it will be an argument to the court of appeals here to try to actually, you know, cut him some slack. and look, you know, bankruptcy, he's done it before, and doesn't hesitate. i just think it's a political problem, and then we know that his commercial real estate holdings well exceed the amount of the bond. and so there are things that he could sell off, although as tim and david point out, there's a real risk here, and he's even going to kind of billionaire buddies at home and abroad. that poses a real risk. it's always been a risk. it's nothing that the law prevents. i just think he has more cards up his sleeve, and before he lets tish james, you know,

actually at the few properties that he considers define him as a, you know, real estate magnet. >> maybe because i also think it's interesting, david, the fact that none of those so-called billionaire friends have come to his rescue just yet, right? i mean, they seem to understand the potential liability that they are dealing with. >> yeah, that's right. first of all, half a billion dollars is a lot of money to come up with, even for billionaires, particularly when you're a billionaire with ill-liquid assets, which is essentially the case that donald trump is making. look, one of the factors of bankruptcy court is he could exit bankruptcy court. he could pull off some type of outside lending and exit bankruptcy court. it is cumbersome, complex, certainly you don't want to enter the process if he can avoid it. one of the ironies is, you know, we see him play victim, but then we also see him really shout victim hood sometimes, where he's personally offended and

this filing has all of the victim hood of donald trump, when he says, it would be patently unfair to have him quickly liquidate real estate assets. they were iconic. he would have to sell them at a discount. you know what, lawyers, it is exactly fair. it's these assets that are the subject of his fraud. it is these assets that he used to manipulate his financial statements to get leverage so he could own these assets. so there is a bit of irony, but it's also patently fair, if indeed, tish james takes some of these properties as a result of this judgment. >> we are reminded over and over that this was a merchandising brand that involved into a political brand, predicated on the merchandising brand. it was always about the brand. now they're inextricable. something can't happen to one. you can't have it happen to the brand without repercussions and the name itself without having

repercussions on the political side. >> i don't know how much his base cares anymore about his history as a businessman, you know, i think they see him, it's a cult. i think they see him as a mote between woke liberalism and a racially diversifying united states, and an oppressive government and foreign powers, and they see him first and foremost in that way. i do think he won't, you know, he himself is going to have real difficulty going out on the campaign trail and saying, i'm the entrepreneurial guru to the masses, when i'm actually a serial bankruptcy artist, which is what we went through in the '90s. he came within a hair of going personally bankrupt. his siblings had to bail him out with money from his father's estate. at the time, it was a searing event for him. he moved away from that when the apprentice recreated him in the imagination of most american voters. prior to that, he was seen as

this sort of punch line to jokes about the excesses of the 1980s, and the apprentice reinvented that. you see him descending into the my pockets are empty, i can't meet my bills. >> i'm just like you. >> yeah, that's right. >> inflation has hit me hard too. >> yeah, i can't pay my phone bill either. and i think that's something he doesn't want personally, but i don't know how much that will matter to voters. i think at this point, his base, his core base is enmured to any kind of criticism. they don't matter in the general. there's a broad swath of independence. this stuff does matter. >> i think the persuadable voters, the voters who are going to make the difference, it potentially matters to them. i want to loop back to something, david, you talked about, and that was this idea of a foreign entity bailing out donald trump. this is trump attorney alina

habba being asked about this. take a listen to what she said. >> is there any effort on the part of your team to secure this money through another country, saudi arabia or russia as joy behar seems to think? >> well, there's rules and regulations that are public. i can't speak about strategy. that requires certain things, and we have to follow those rules. >> that requires certain things, and we have to follow those rules. nowhere in that word solid, david jolly, did i hear a no. >> because i think he's entertaining overseas bailouts, if you will. and i think this chapter right now could be one of the very defining moments of this campaign. we cover a lot of the litigation sequence and the developments in court, but this matters for exactly the reason that you just pointed out. there are only so many people in the world that can move half a billion dollars as quickly as donald trump needs it moved, and they are either nation states or

individuals tied to a nation state. when we say putin, mbs, those are the actors that would come to mind. maybe there's a turkish interest because donald trump let turkey run rough shot over the kurds or you look at elon musk, say his allegiances are perhaps in the united states, but you know you're selling undue influence to whomever you're asking to bail you out. he's not controlled as an elected official by this decision. it simply would be a matter of disclosure, and the voters could make their opinion known. i think it does bring into question the fact that he now will have access again to security briefs, and this is already somebody who has stolen classified information and clearly made it available to people of interest. >> tim, she couldn't say no. >> i sort of doubt they're asking alina habba what her thoughts are about transactions with foreign entities.

she probably doesn't know. she couldn't say no because when you have a client like donald trump, he does his own thing. he doesn't listen to his lawyers. when it involves money, he's going to do what he wants to do. viktor orban visited mar-a-lago just a couple of weeks ago. did they have discussions about trump having financial liabilities? i would imagine that's a reasonable thing to think about, and it's also problematic, it's yet another overseas dictators, who's sullying american democracy and the office of the presidency because donald trump is inviting him in and courting him to do so. >> that is the important word. no one is going anywhere. when we return, how the disgraced ex-president's money troubles have become a punch line on the campaign trail. what president biden is saying about his rival's financial woes behind closed doors. plus, enough is enough, that is what manhattan d.a. alvin bragg is saying about donald trump's strategy of distraction and delay in the stormy daniels hush money case. bragg's push to bring trump to

trial, and why trump's legal team has real reason to be worried. and brand new reporting about the pressure campaign donald trump put on his vice president mike pence on the morning of january 6th with startling new details about trump's actions before, during and after the insurrection. all of those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. do not go anywhere. (shouting) i can't! i'm just telling everyone! ...hey! see your tax refund go further with buy one get one free at visionworks. see the difference.

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from getting laughs at a fundraiser in dallas last night, and this was the joke that killed, quote, just the other day, a guy came to me and said, mr. president, i need your help, i'm being crushed with debt, i'm completely wiped out, i had to say, donald, i can't help you. as the saying goes, it's funny because it's true. donald trump's financial situation is not pretty. there's that looming half a billion dollar bond due on monday. the $91 million bond he posted for the e. jean carroll defamation verdict, not to mention the staggering penalties themselves in both cases. the bills, they are slowly and in some cases, quickly coming due, and they are big, huge amounts of money. it's not just a problem in terms of money going out. it's also a problem in terms of money coming in from the disgraced ex-president, and notably while donald trump was being turned down by surety brokerages and looking for half a billion dollar bonds between the couch cushions, president biden was quietly building up a $40 million advantage over the trump campaign. more than double the

$33.5 million in former president donald trump's campaign account. that is quite the split screen. we are back with david and with tim. david, here is how "the new york times" puts it. quote, mr. trump's legal battles have been a drain on his overall election funds. he faces four criminal indictments along with civil cases proven costly. last year committees backing him spent $50 million on legal expenses and those costs are likely to balloon, as he prepares for potential trials this year. the point is, david, he's already in a financial crush and then you have the bills piling up. >> yeah, and i guess the gold tennis shoes didn't sell so well because he also doesn't have places to find revenue other than the republican national committee and the different committees that should be working to elect republican candidates, including donald trump, and part of putting laura lee, his daughter-in-law at the rnc was to make sure they can

continue to siphon off resources from republican activities instead for donald trump's legal bills. that is bound to happen, and you know, as we discussed in the previous segment about why won't his rich friends bail him out, why won't people give him money, frankly in the political space, no one wants to give money to the rnc to pay donald trump's legal bills, they want to get republicans elected. in this case, that's not where the money is going. donald trump and republicans are in a lot of financial trouble going into november. joe biden and the democrats are firing on cylinders, and we'll see that play out for the next few months. >> that's exactly the point, which is it's not just donald trump, right, it is now the republican party. it is all of those down ticket races that were going to be relying on the rnc, the infrastructure and dollars, they are now going to be depleted by donald trump. >> every candidate who surges in either party has a right to leave their imprint on their operatives. you know, the rnc should be at the disposal of the leading candidate. but that candidate should have

the interest, as you note, and as david correctly noted, should have the interest of both the party itself and then down ballot people running in for the senate, the house, et cetera, et cetera, and donald trump's never had any concern even prior to this for down ballot candidates, unless they were there as loyalists. i think one of the other interesting things so far in the campaign, donation data. early on, this is going to be a long slog. we will probably be talking about this in august and september, but he seems to be bleeding small dollar donors, and i think that's very interesting. the argument for trump was he had such an incendiary impact on average voters that they made up for the fact that institutional republican money avoided him. in the primary you saw that most institution republican dollars in the end tried to go to nikki haley. that meant trump was more dependent on the small donors.

those were people that he spent on his legal defense after january 6th and since then and maybe they've gotten wise. if they've gotten wise, that's a warning sign for him. >> politically. >> it's the financial equivalent of him bleeding voters to nikki haley at the 20% to 30% level, even after she's dropped out of the race. >> here's a reminder you do not need but is worth throwing out there. his financial troubles are not new. i want you to take a listen. this is from the fox news republican debate in 2015. >> trump corporations, casinos and hotels have declared bankruptcy four times over the last quarter century. question, sir, with that record, why should we trust you to run the nation's business? >> because i have used the laws of this country, just like the greatest people that you read about every day in business, have used the laws of this country, the chapter laws to do a great job for my company, for

myself, more my employees, my family, et cetera. i have never gone bankrupt, by the way. i have never. but out of hundreds of deals -- >> but, sir, that's your line, but your companies have gone bankrupt. >> appreciate the fact check there at the end. but i also think it is interesting, tim, he told us, he bends the system to his will. >> and therefore he's successful. so, no, no, no, and no again. donald trump couldn't make money running a casino. casinos are cash registers, right? we could probably do that together, alicia. we could go to a casino. >> i do need a plan. >> and make a little bit of money. >> we'll pay for your kids' colleges, he couldn't do that. he went to atlantic city, had one of the best locations, he got in there early and put it into bankruptcy. he's undisciplined financially, he has this endless appetite to acquire more when he doesn't have the money to do it. he's simply not disciplined.

he personally guarantees loans when he shouldn't, and then rather than simply say, you know what, i learned from my past mistakes, i come into the white house with more financial discipline than i had as a private citizen because i have been through the fire. instead, he says, yeah, i got away with it. you know, i screwed up. i went into bankruptcy and you know what, the laws protected me like so many other people. but classically successful business people do not make a habit of touring through bankruptcy court like it's going to disneyland and they did. >> david, if you want to cut in on this casino deal, i don't want you to feel that because you weren't here with us on set it wasn't offered to you as an option to get in at the ground level. let's talk about the split screen you have here. you have trump bleeding money, and then you've got biden quietly raising a ton of money. that matters, right? sometimes we get in to sort of the optics and this and that. at the end of the day, campaigns run on these dollars.

ads run on these dollars. those yard signs that everybody likes to complain about, they pop up in yards with those dollars. it is hard to get over that structural disadvantage. it also is huge for the biden campaign that they will have this cash advantage. >> that's exactly right. and you can say that donald trump might survive more than other candidates in this financial problem, when it comes to campaign resources because of his 100% name recognition and image. where resources matter in the race is the ability of joe biden to micro target and data target say the 8% of american voters he needs that will decide this election. his ability to outspend trump in the electoral cle electoral col that he must win, joe biden will go into this with a massive advantage. and messaging, whether or not donald trump is a successful businessman or not, the fact is donald trump was born on third base and stole second, and that's a message that joe biden

can share with voters. i think the other message that comes into frame here is how desperate donald trump is right now to win this election and why that should terrify all of us. he is facing enormous civil judgments. he is facing criminal trials, and now possibly personal bankruptcy. where does he go if he loses. he's in a lot of hurt if he loses, and he should be in a lot of hurt if he wins. he sees it as his ticket to absolution, and that is what is making him so desperate right now. donald trump knows he must win this in november. >> he knows. all right. ahead for us, a new filing from manhattan d.a. alvin bragg urging the judge not to delay the trial any further. it comes after a string of rulings that should have the ex-president's legal team very concerned. that's next. concerned. that's next.

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we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. manhattan district attorney alvin bragg told the judge overseeing the criminal case against donald trump today that newly disclosed documents should not further delay the ex-president's trial. bragg argued that the documents handed over to trump's team from the federal investigation into michael cohen had little meaningful new information. writing, quote, the people now have good reason to believe that this production contains only limited materials relevant to the subject matter of this case. the ex-president's legal team asked the judge in the case to either completely dismiss the

charges or push the trial into the summer, blaming bragg's office for the belated disclosure of these records. bragg writes that the current delay is quote, a more than reasonable amount of time for the defendant to review the information provided. he adds, quote, enough is enough. these tactics by defendant and defense counsel should be stopped. harry, david and tim are all back with us. walk us through this filing today. >> sure. so there is a bunch of papers that were, in fact, turned over by the southern district of new york, the federal office. there's some good reason that they, in fact, might have been doing it at the last minute. but it really doesn't matter. the legal question is what amount of time does it take for trump to process these and prepare his defense. so you have his hyperbolic claims, it's 31,000 pages or this or that, but bragg's filing mainly says, look, when it comes to it, there's a little bit of stuff about michael cohen.

fine, give him some time to incorporate that into his defense, 30 days will do it. and that really should be the focus of the claim and the ruling by the judge. he is somewhat interested in just how this happened, and he's indicated in the hearing he wants to kind of get to the bottom of it, but i think at the end of the day, without being able to point the finger at bragg, and there's no reason to do that at all, the question really will resolve to how much time does trump need. unsurprisingly he says either 90 days or dismiss the whole thing, but it's really a pretty modest belated production, something that he can absorb in fairly quick order, and it shouldn't take more than even a month is a lot, but they have already acquiesced to a month. i think that's what merchan is likely to hold. >> tim, how worried do you think trump actually is that this goes to trial? >> i think he's worried about any of these cases going to trial. his lawyers have tried to

prevent witnesses from testifying. they have indicated they're going to make claims that he relied on outside advice when he forked over the hush money payments. i don't know that that will stand in court, but obviously bragg has a higher standard to prove here. it's a criminal case. he needs to show intent. there's a tape recording here, i might remind you. there's a recording that michael cohen made of donald trump telling him to go get allen weisselberg, the former cfo, to get a payment in order. there's evidence here, but it's still a very high bar. i have always thought this is one of the weaker cases that have come to trump's doorstep. but having said that, i don't think donald trump wants to be on trial again anywhere. he tried to make the last two with e. jean carroll and the new york a.g.'s case show trials for him to court his base and he got disastrous financial results. i don't know that he wants to go into another courtroom where

he's going to be under oath. he's a horrible witness if he testifies. he lies. he exaggerates, he doesn't stay on script. he's a lawyer's worst nightmare on a witness stand. so i don't think he wants to do this, but he may have no choice. >> it strikes me, david jolly, you heard the former president on the trail referring to all of these cases, the georgia case, the new york case as local cases, as though they don't have national implications, when of course, when anything tied to trump has national implications, and as we've seen from bragg, we call this the hush money case so as to differentiate it from the other election interference cases, but at its core, bragg is arguing this is about election interference. it's not about some one-off thing that happened in new york state. >> that's right. and when he says local presidents, he means cases that are beyond his reach to pardon himself should he become president because these are not federal jurisdictions and so take your pick for the narrative

on this one. we will hear michael cohen, david peck and others retell the story about stormy daniels and the hush money to try to make it go away as a way to interfere with the election, to prevent voters from learning more information, derogatory information about donald trump. or you can make it about the fact that he is a serial fraudster when it comes to business because it's also the 30-plus count indictment is about business fraud in the state of new york. so this kind of has it all wrapped into one. is this the case, you know, the one thing in the voters' minds that we have not yet seen react to is a criminal conviction. we now have civil judgments to look at. we have not seen a criminal conviction. does that kind of shore up those persuadable voters who don't just want more of donald trump or do we see a reflexive, this is the deep state out to get donald trump, and we see the intensity ramp up. we don't know, this case might be the only one we get to test

that with. >> judge merchan issued a ruling, allowing a number of witnesses to testify, michael cohen, david pecker, karyn mcdougal. how do you think those people impact this case? >> a lot. and they go to exactly what david is saying, and what you're saying. in other words, they're going to permit the d.a. to present this election interference theme, even though we have trouble coming up with the shorthand note of it. the story that they're going to be permitted to tell the d.a. is, after access hollywood, which is coming in itself, the fact of the tape, he is reeling and another revelation involving sexual misconduct could have really been fatal from the point of view and the time of the -- right before the election when already his prospects were rough. merchan, by the way, issued a flurry of rulings, a few dozen, great contrasts with say judge cannon who's methodical in the extreme down in mar-a-lago, and all of them tend to favor the

d.a., so not only will he be telling this larger story of election interference, trump will be prohibited from trying to argue selective prosecution, advice of counsel, and setting ground rules in advance, merchan will be in a position to control his courtroom and nip things in the bud when trump tries, as i'm certain he will, to get away with it. >> harry litman, david jolly, tim o'brien, thank you for spending some time with us. when we return, what is being done to protect election workers in two critical battle ground states that will help to decide who wins the presidency, the secretaries of state from michigan and nevada will be with us here in studio after a very quick break.

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you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. in four years, the job of administering elections has become almost unrecognizable, thanks to the likely gop's nominee's unprecedented threats to democracy and the voting process itself. in battleground states where 60 million americans will ultimately determine the winner of the presidential race, top elections officials are working overtime to expand voting access while others try to restrict it. to fight disinformation on election security, to protect and equip election workers and themselves to and to lessen the chance of political violence. two of them join me at the table

for their first joint interview, jocelyn benson, and nevada secretary of state aguilar. i want to know the conversations you two are having with each other. >> it's sharing best practices, talking about misinformation we're hearing our voters are receiving because it's almost identical, and every once in a while we get hit with a lawsuit designed to sow seeds of doubt in our states. we know the voters are going to be inundated with a lot of noise over the next six months so we talk about how to collectively mitigate that noise and protect everyone from a similarly coordinated strategy that's hitting both of our states. >> the conversations are very exciting, but it's me -- >> they are or they aren't? >> they are. what we're talking about is about policy, right, what can we do for voters to make sure they have access to the ballot box and maintaining the integrity of the system. we ensure the safety of the system, talking what we can do to better educate voters about

how the process works. and why we have some of this most -- the safest, secure elections in the country. >> here's the thing, though, nevada isn't michigan, and michigan isn't nevada. there are unique challenges, i am sure that you're dealing with. >> absolutely. but her experience as a secretary of state in the second term, me being in my first term, i need to learn. i need to understand, and i need to get best practices from the best in the country. >> how humbling to hear a person say that they have to learn. it's not something you hear every day from elected officials. we talk about these threats, you have faced them yourselves and the way it's making harder to recruit election workers, you have made the argument that it's also making the reverse. there are people showing up specifically because of the threat to democracy. >> the other side of the coin, our election workers in ourselves have been under enormous threats and scrutiny over the last few years. but the flip side of that is

that you have so many people signing up to be election workers in this moment, knowing what they're signing up for and proudly saying i want to defend democracy. we have recruited tens of thousands of new election workers since 2020 if michigan, and every one i speak with say they signed up because they know democracy is under threat, and they want to be on the front lines of what happened to them. >> you don't have people saying i saw what happened to shaye moss, ruby freeman, count me out. >> they want to stand in because we need to stand with ruby and we stand together in times like this. >> we talk so much about the threat, and the threat is real, and i think we want to make sure the people understand it's real. it's really nice to hear those silver linings. to hear about every day americans who are stepping up and saying, i understand that i am the final line of defense. i understand that if i care about this democracy, i have to show up for it. are you seeing the same when you're recruit something.

>> absolutely. when you look at the 17 clerks that actually execute the election in nevada, those are some of the most committed individuals in our state. they understand what our democracy means. 2 of the 17 are appointed by the county commission. we have 15 clerks that are in our rural counties that are elected by their communities and they go to work every day to serve. not only are they running elections but in these smaller counties, they're also the treasurer, they're also the clerk of the court. they're doing other jobs but they understand the importance of our democracy and the work that they do. and our poll workers are the unsung heroes of democracy. they ensure that people have access to the ballot box, to tell us elected leaders what the priorities are for our communities. >> nevada, a huge latino electorate, critical in your state, and we know that the community has faced unprecedented disinformation. it's very specific to latinos in part because it's being produced in spanish. what do you do, then, to protect

those voters specifically? >> it's been a conversation we're having among our latino elected officials. we came together recently to talk about what are we going to do to ensure we're getting the accurate information it's building -- >> the app chat. all of those memes. >> misinformation among the latino community is happening on whatsapp and it's happening in our churches. we need to engage at the local level to truly understand what information is being given to them and to be able to counter back and give them real information in realtime in spanish. >> this is the thing, we talk about electorates as than the ones in urban centers. what are the groups you're most concerned about in michigan? >> voters of color, new voters. >> who are often voters of color. >> from strategic standpoint, you can see groups targeting those who have limited information. in michigan, we have early

voting now. for the first time ever. and so we anticipate that's going to be a point in which people try to confuse voters about. then we have artificial intelligence which is going to micro target communities. saying your polling place is under threat. figure out exactly who to target with what misinformation. >> it strikes me we're sitting here talking about how to ward off these threats and there's an alternate universe where you're sitting here talk about how we're going to engage more people in the process. what would it look like for us to be having a conversation about progress when it comes to voting rights and elections instead of the conversation we're having now? >> we have to continue to win elections. if we do not continue to win, it's like a sports game. you're a fan of a team and when you're a fan of that team, you want that team to win. if that team doesn't win, you're going to figure out where to go to support and i think we're on the right side of history to be

able to produce the results to show that we're winning. we're giving accurate information and we're producing elections that are safe, secure, and accessible. >> yeah, actually, we are doing both of those and by winning, you see democracy winning. it's really not about a particular party. it's just about all voters being more informed than before. over the last five years that i've been doing this work, we have seen the threats to democracy increase but we have also seen the strength of our democracy increase. more people are voting than before. michigan led the nation in youth voter engagement in 2022, so we should be having that conversation about all the ways democracy is improving because there's also a reality that at least in michigan, we've experienced for the last several years alongside all these challenges. >> you said these weren't exciting conversations but you lied. thank you both so much for spending some time with us. ahead, a chilling warning by a federal judge overseeing the sentencing of a january 6th

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2024 election. he was in the midst of sentencing a defendant to more than five years in prison. he told the fbi he believed there was no question the election was stolen and that a quote call to battle was announced. that he answered the call because there was a patriot warrior and assaulted officers at the lower west tunnel during the capitol attack. the judge warned trump quote spurred the attack and was worried he would respond again if a similar call was issued. quote, doesn't take much imagination to imagine a similar call. coming up, never before seen testimony from a white house, what the ex-president was doing before, during, and after the insurrection. the next hour starts after this quick break. on the next hour starts after this quick break. . i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates,

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it is 5:00 in new york. at this hour, we are following explosive new details first reported by "the new york times" about the disgraced, twice impeached ex-president about his behavior. quote, mr. trump's white house devolved into dysfunction but the most eye popping detail in "the new york times" reporting is this. a phone call between donald trump and then vice president mike pence on the morning of january 6th. in which trump told him quote, mike, this is a political career

killer if you do this. this being define trump's effort to overturn the 2020 election and as mike pence ultimately did, certifying the results. that's according to the white house valet who was with the president for much of the day on january 6th and told congress he had overheard the conversation between trump and pence. the valet's testimony was provided to the house january 6th select committee in 2022 but not previously released publicly. until now. "the new york times" obtained a transcript from the valet's testimony which points a chilling portrait of trump's behavior before and during the insurrection. the times reports that not only did quote an agitated mr. trump pressure mr. pence to overturn the election but he quoted stewed about mr. pence and then there was this chilling detail. quote, when told a civilian had been shot outside the house

chaimer and that the mob attack, trump's valet recalled mr. trump appeared unconcerned. the valet's testified quote, i just remember see ago note card trump was given bearing the news of ashley's death. i don't remember how it got there, whatever, but there was like, no reaction. a portrait of a president that is both shocking and not surprising given what we know about the ex-president. that is where we start this hour with tim hafi and former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst, andrew weissman. tim, anything more about this interview that you can tell us about? >> well, i can tell you why it's only coming out now. there are a number of people that work in an around the president. and the disclosure of their identities and activities presents national security risk.

and we wanted access to those people but the white house, the biden white house put restrictions on our access to them not identifying them publicly. not using their voice or image in any public release and not making public their testimony. that was an accommodation that the current white house insisted upon in order to give us access to that information. so this narrative that in or other transcripts were hidden or not disclosed publicly is ridiculous. they were not released because of that accommodation. then on the merits, everything that the times article relates from a transcript is completely consistent with the story that we were able to tell from non confidential sources. you know, we have a lot of testimony about that very contentious phone call between the president and the vice president that morning. the valet adds an additional fact that he, the president actually said mike, this will be

a career killer. that's consistent with everything we had heard. and just think for a minute. that's the president essentially appealing to mike pence's political future. his political motivation as reason to do something that the vice president had told him would be unconstitutional. so the president then continues to try to appeal to his, the fact that he's republican or that he wants some sort of a political future. shocking that that would even be relevant in the middle of that conversation. so there's nothing in there that is any way inconsistent with our fact and it wasn't disclosed because of the fact it came from a source close to the president and we agreed to keep that information confidential. >> andrew, there's more that this account kroeb rates. the valet also confirmed mr. trump's pension for tearing up documents and other material given to him which by the law, governing presidential records are supposed to be preserved. that's typically what he would do once finished with a

document, that this was his sign of like, he was done reading it and he would throw it on the floor. he would tear everything. newspapers, pictures. if you were jack smith, andrew, what do you think when you hear that? >> well, as tim knows, what you think of is you have a wonderful witness at trial. because you think about not just credibility. but you're looking for vignettes that bring to life themes and that you're trying to give to the jury. unfortunately because of the supreme court's sort of lackadaisical schedule, this may never actually see the light of day before the election. if donald trump were to be re-elected, then it's never going to see the light of day. so at least we have this complete transcript. you know, the redacted transcript that came out today. i would like to just reiterate

something that tim said, which is that it's really important to note in this instance that you have the current white house that donald trump loves to attack having taken precautions because of the institution of the white house about being concerned about the integrity and the safety and the sanctity of the institution of the white house regardless of whether it is a democrat or republican who is in the white house. and that's the way it should be and not seeing this through a partisan lens. by the same token just to relate this to the new york attorney general is under attack constantly now by donald trump. the only reason that that judgment is not enforced, it's not a 30-day by law rule. she has by grace given the defendant 30 days to pony up the money to present a bond. that's not by law.

that is, she was entitled to start enforcing that judgment on the day it was entered. and so these are people who are doing their job. who are making principled decisions and of course, you have donald trump on the other side with i think the most chilling thing in this transcript is the idea that someone is coming to the president of the united states in an insurrection that he has fomented saying somebody has actually been killed. they're not just calling for the head of the vice president or the united states. if you think that's not enough, you have actually somebody dying and there's no reaction. i think that tells you everything about a complete sort of, the psychological makeup of somebody who has no ability to empathize with a human tragedy. even if he weren't the person

who is ultimately responsible for setting in motion those, that activity, you would have a normal, human response to that. that should be everything that anyone who is raised by parents who taught you right from wrong would take as a deep sign that this person should not be in public service ever again. >> and yet republicans seem to think this is a flattering portrait of the former president. let's bring in luke broadwater. he is on the phone for us. you had house republicans furnishing the transcript to the times after they obtained it from the white house. this was not a part of the january 6th committee's hearings. what did reasons think this was going to show? >> my interest in the transcript is we've read at the times, but

there are so few that haven't come out for a variety of reasons. and so it might be -- on january 6th. what did that person see. and i think you know from the republicans' point of view, you know, i think a less damning transcript than some others. that said, you know, interviewing -- released it, he acknowledges that it doesn't, there are parts of it that are not very good for donald trump. one of them i think, which was just highlighted is the moment a note was brought in saying a civilian has been shot in the chest in front of the house chamber and there's no reaction according to the valet. just sitting there as he watches television and the riot is

unfolding. in front of him. sorry, i'm walking up right now. >> you're reporting. you're allowed to be on the move. we appreciate you making the time. here's the thing i want to underscore, tim. he doesn't corroborate some details. he didn't recall trump using vulgar language to describe mike pence or green with rioters who wanted to hang the vice president. does any of that make a difference? >> two things. one, the valet is around the president over the course of the day. he actually in some of the redacted portions of the transcript talks about physically where he's positioned. he's sort of on stand by to bring the president's stuff. so he's not with him by his side and he says by his own admission he didn't hear everything. i think the second point that the house republicans believe that this is important, the

valet recalls some discussion of the president calling general milley and speaker pelos about the national guard. the bottom line is that the president didn't call general milley, speaker pelosi. the president of the united states can get those two people on the phone immediately if he wants. and maybe there was discussion of it but the fact remains he never made that call. he didn't call vice president pence to check on his safety. he took none of those actions. so to the extent the congressman wants to trumpet this as a great revelation, 180 degree different reaction. the fact he did not make those calls when he could have, to me, is even more important evidence of his intent. of his satisfaction with the interruption of the joint session. all of which will bear directly upon the evidence presented in the criminal trial whenever that happens. >> luke, my friend, i think i

have you back. checking to see. but if i do, your sense, there you are. if republicans plan here was working as we read through this. >> republicans plan? >> i'm sorry. their plan to paint donald trump in a different light. their plan to release a transcript they thought hey, this is a more flattering version than some of what you've heard. it doesn't read that way to me, luke. >> as i read the transcript, i don't see much in here that's flattering for donald trump. in my view, it is you have him pressuring vice president mike pence to overturn the election and telling him his career is over if he doesn't comply. you have the incident with the note being brought as the protesters shot in the capitol and then you also have at the end of the day, after all of

this chaos has unfolded, he, one of the last things he says to the valet is mike really let me down. so that's what's on his mind. people have been beaten at the capitol. 150 police officers have been injured. a woman is dead. the, and that is his concern is that mike pence didn't, has let him down. you know, i think the thing republicans are pointing to is that a few of the, he didn't hear, he didn't corroborate some of the things that other people told the january 6th committee but he was also in and out of the room at different times and people have various memories. some people remember one event one way and another another way. you know, information with donald trump using vulgarity with mike pence, that comes from ivanka trump and her chief of staff. so i don't think she would have a reason to make that up or lie to about her father.

to me, look, there are still a few more transcripts to come out. we know the january 6th committee had to turn over the documents to the house. then they disbanded. then tim will know what they say because they've been reviewed. there's still a few more to review that may give us more information about what happened on january 6th. >> that look on tim's face. what are you allowed to tell us? i think this far out, we're like, there's more? there is still more we don't know? what is in these transcripts, tim? >> there's nothing that changes the course. there are more colorful antidotes. the president wanted to go to the capitol. president was passive and resistant to issuing any kind of

statement to quell violence. the president was mad at mike pence. the president appealed to his politics more than his patriotism. there are more little vignettes like that. look, we wanted to show everything. we disclosed absolutely every word of every interview that we did. the small universe that the biden white house, to andrew's point. biden white house protecting the institution of sort of the institutional apparatus of the presidency. people that work in the oval office or the secret service. there are institutional reasons why those transcripts weren't disclosed. not because, they're not favorable to the jan 6 narrative. they're more evidence as you've seen in this valet's testimony. not less. so to extent, the republicans want to work with the white house and issue those transcripts with redactions. i think america will see there are more meat on bones that we established in our report. >> luke, i take tim's point that none of this changes the core

narrative and yet these little pieces of color, they do add up in creating a fuller picture of what it is that happened on that day. there are certainly american citizens interested in that. for you as a journalist, i wonder what new questions these transcripts have brought up for you. >> i'm not sure if i have fundamentally new questions from this. you know, i do think it was quite interesting the whole passage where the valet talks about how trump ripped up document after document. pictures. we knew that from some other reporting but to hear the valet saying this was something that happened as a regular course of function within the trump white house, i do wonder what impact that could have on the documents case in florida, if any. you know, i do wonder, i know all these transcripts have been reviewed by the federal prosecutors in the january 6th

case. and they've already been sent to the trump legal team as well so they have them. federal prosecutors aren't going to be surprised by anything in here but as i read through it, that's something that stands out to me is just how regular it was that every single thing he was tearing up and of course, we know that presidential records are supposed to be preserved. >> tim, i want to give you the final word because i know that you know all of this better than anyone. what am i missing here? >> i don't think you're missing anything. i think they are, there are themes that emerged from every investigation. right? and these vignettes as luke said further illustrate those themes. here's a very angry president over the course of the riot. here's a president who doesn't really care about the institutional norms like the presidential records act. ripping things up and tossing them. that's against the rules. these are property of the people.

they need to be maintained. then again, the way he treats people and what he appeals to in conversations with them. those are all vignette that sort of bring to life a theme. a character. and ultimately, manifest upon his intent. so there is more of that kind of little stuff to come in these transcripts to the extent they're all going to be released but again, it's only further evidence of the core theory of the president wanted this to succeed, for the joint session and transcript power to be prevented as long as possible. >> luke, tim, we are always grateful to have you on the show, but today, more than ever. thank you both so much for spending time with us. andrew is sticking around. when we return, big, new questions about the judge overseeing another trump prosecution. the mishandling of classified documents at mar-a-lago. we're going to talk about why legal experts say judge cannon's

latest move is very troubling. plus, donald trump is hoping one of the supreme court justices he nominated won't remember his past comments. we'll look at trump cherry picking kavanaugh's open words. and later, the gop's struggling impeachment inquiry just lost another cheerleader. openly saying the probe is quote, not going to go anywhere. deadline white house continues after a quick break. stay with us. house continues after a quick break. stay with us meet the traveling trio. each helping to protect their money with chase. wooo! tools that help protect. alerts that help check. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours. progressive makes it easy to save with a quick commercial auto quote online. so you can get back to your monster to-do list. -really? -get a quote at progresivecommercial.com.

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so i did not plan on speaking out publicly and then about three, four weeks ago, i was reading the news, reading the court filings and they were going to release the witness list for all the witnesses. so at that point, i said, oh. so ultimately, i said let me jump in front of this. >> what a moment it must have been when judge cannon, the trump appointee overseeing the classified documents case asked the special counsel's team when they would be publishing their records list. jack smith reportedly sat upright in his seat, raised his eyebrows shocked. it was reason nufr for employee number five to shed his protective an empty in an attempt to get out ahead of things. it wasn't the first move she's made and wasn't the last, but where such instances previously fell under the heading highly

irregular like indulging team trump's, now her conduct appears down right baffling to legal experts and troubling. as harry lipman put it, cannon's latest order on the presidential records act confirms cannon has crossed the line into running interference for the former president who put her on the bench. joining me at the table, director of the public policy program, basil smichael. jury instructions sounds like a mundane topic, but remind us of judge cannon's decision and why today we're really seeing push back from the legal community on her conduct. >> sure. the one thing i would take issue with, at least from this legal commentator, i don't think her conduct is baffling. i think it's intentional. and so to your point, remember

that this is a judge who in the preindictment phase was reversed not once but twice by the conservative 11th circuit in scathing language because of actions that both times were highly favorable and against the law for donald trump. that's not me saying it. that's the 11th circuit saying it. with respect to the jury instructions, one, it's odd to be talking about jury instructions when you haven't even set a trial date, but leave that aside. she gave the parties two options to explore and to provide instructions on both of which were legally wrong. both of which were favorable to donald trump. so she has consistently making erroneous legal decisions. they are consistently always on the side of donald trump. and as the transcript shows in

terms of how that came about, it came about because it's precisely what donald trump's lawyers asked for and said should be done and then she did it. there is no law to support it. and to be in the weeds, she keeps on referring to the presidential records act and wants to instruct the jury on the presidential records act. that is not the crime. it has nothing to do with the crime. it is what donald trump wants the case to be about. but it is not actually what the criminal law is about. so this is a judge in my administration who's engaging in out in the open in catch and kill. which is to never have this case go to trial before the election, which is really is also, if you think about donald trump and what a defendant who actually thinks they're innocent running for the presidency, they would want their day in court to clear their name. that is not what's going on here. he wants to avoid a public trial where facts of law can matter.

and that is what she's doing for him. >> put another way, i want you to take a listen to something christie greenburg, former sdny chief said about judge cannon earlier on "morning joe." take a listen. >> i was willing to give her the benefit of the doubt initially just she's a new judge. she's inexperienced. she's taking time and trying to gt it right. but she's getting it dead wrong and every time she gets it dead wrong, it's always in donald trump's favor. the pra whether or not something is personal or presidential is not the point. he's charged with committing violations of the espionage act and nothing in the presidential records act gives him authorization to have classified information. it's a red herring. if this were a law school exam, she would be failing. >> so that comports exactly with andrew's assessment. politically, how does this delay work for him?

>> it's always part of the larger tactic. what we're seeing is what others are bringing out is that the judge's finger is on the scale. once that happens, to andrew's point, he knows what he's doing. he's essentially feeding her the talking points to deliver back into the courtroom so that it could be adjudicated the way he would want it to be. that creates talking points for him to go out and energize his base about. and so this is, this to me, look, i'm not a lawyer. but this was always a concern. with this case in particular. that something that is important as being able to protect classified documents would be in the hands not of just of donald trump and his supporters, but also of a judge who's clearly leaning on trying to find a way to exonerate him. i would also say that the revealing of the witnesses, that is incredibly troubling. you have the secretaries of state on earlier talking about part of this longer conversation around people in the public eye

or in public service being targeted. what is to stop that from happening here? these individuals, i'm not saying they should be lauded, but i'm saying they should at least be protected if they're going to participate in the process. that should be a real concern. >> absolutely. andrew, one more clip from ari's interview with brian butler. take a listen. >> so you had the impression from the people around that trump knew the things that went down were bad or illegal and he didn't want that on video. >> oh, absolutely. i mean, why else would you needed to know the video footage and then why were they calling and asking me hey, why didn't you tell me this guy was on video moving boxes. >> andrew, you always say in assessing criminality, it's helpful to observe the way a person was acting at the time. as butler lays out, it seems, seems that trump knew that what he was doing was wrong. how would a prosecutor present a

that to a jury? >> well, this is the old adage, the cover up is worse than the crime. but here, that sort of consciousness of guilt if you want to get rid of the videotape. this is not rocket science. first of all, he had the documents there and he wasn't giving them back and he gaifr them, the parts he gave back was in drips and drabs and he was lying to his lawyers then engaged in allegedly two forms of obstruction of justice. one of which relates to the clip you played, trying to get rid of the videotape that could help prove the underlying crime. so i mean, this is a rock crusher of a case. and just to be very serious about this, if it weren't for the january 6th indictment, which is so important in terms of the allegations related to overthrowing our democracy, this is, this could not be a more important case. anybody who has been in the

government and the intelligence community is actually, has to be horrified. whether you are republican or a democrat, the idea that you wouldn't make those kinds of documents that are so important to the national security of our nation sack row sank and you would be obstructing justice to keep them in a local that's a honey pot for our adversaries, it's such an anathema. it's such a horrific set of allegations that form the basis of the indictment. >> thank you for spending the time with us. basel, you are sticking with us. ahead, why donald trump's legal team asking for presidential immunity isn't landing quite like they'd hoped. we're going to explain after a quick break. g to explain after a quick break.

why he should be in the interim prosecution in the federal election interference case might not be making the argument he thinks it is. the brief relies on two articles from justice kavanaugh where he argued against sitting presidents. but as jordan rubin points today, a closer reading beyond the quotes trump's lawyers plucked from them shows

kavanaugh's words support the notion that former presidents can be prosecute d. in fact, in one of the articles the ex-president's brief cited, he writes that quote, the point is not to put the president above the law or to eliminate the checks on the president. but simply to defer litigation until the president is out of office. oral arguments scheduled for april 25th. we'll see if kavanaugh is familiar with his own work. joining our conversation, former prosecutor for the manhattan d.a.'s office, jordan rubin. basil is also back with us. where does this leave justice kavanaugh? >> i think in a place of almost laughing at this trying to figure out what trump is trying to do because if you actually read the articles as you say, kavanaugh was concerned about prosecuting sitting presidents, not former presidents like president trump. it's really a goofy move on the

trump legal team's part. he's always been concerned about presidential power, but here, we're talking about the power of a former president. so it remains to be seen how much kavanaugh cares about that. there's no reason to think that he does care about it in the way that trump does from the very articles that trump himself cites in his own brief. >> so jordan, you have jack smith. he has a responding brief due on april 8th. do you think then he uses it to quote kavanaugh more expansively, to give it some of the context you gave it? >> i think if he touches those quotes, he's going to go more expansively and point out what kavanaugh actually thought, which is that presidents can be prosecuted after they leave office. it's possible on the other hand smith just doesn't even touch it at all, which almost comments on how stupid it was for trump to bring it up. but it's probably one of those two options. >> so part of the reason this caught our attention is because

there is some irony here, right? one of trump's own appointees making an argument that runs counter to the argument that trump's legal team is trying to make. >> maybe somewhere in the trump world their mind was let's bring up an argument and direct it toward the person we appointed so he can do the right thing when he has the right opportunity. >> we've seen it do it before. they're sort of doing that in florida, aren't they, in terms of trying to create that pathway. now maybe that's what they were thinking. i don't know that that really works here, but i think if you're the supreme court, i can't speak to conservatives on the supreme court without an attorney, but i will say you know, if he is, if kavanaugh is intent upon following through on things he's already written, concerned about the ratings and polling around the supreme court and where they stand and thinking about not just this former president, but what happens, setting a precedent. what happens down the road for any president coming forward,

that they would decide this in a way that is not helpful to donald trump. >> i also wonder what you think. they're conservative justices but then they're just sort of conservative elected. does it give them any pause that you have brett kavanaugh, a trump appointee, saying no. a former president can be prosecuted. >> not a day goes by that i don't, that i don't wonder what even moderate republicans are thinking about everyone that was appointed during the trump administration and what he's done. because i don't think that they've really adhered to the sort of typical conservative guardrails and without that understanding or that guidance, i imagine there are elected officials wondering we don't know where this is going to go but let's assume for a second it goes the way trump wants it to go. what then? what now does congress have to do to try to create those rules and that fencing that the supreme court won't do. so you know, i think we're all

waiting. >> jordan, you would think a lawyer would know better than to file a brief to the highest court in the land where the take out the actual context of a quote and yet here we are. as with many things, i sometimes wonder if these are legal maneuvers or maneuvers for the court of public opinion. >> it might be both. maybe the best i could say about it as a legal maneuver is that it's sort of a prayerful move and you're saying you said this about sitting presidents. we really want you to harness that energy and give it to a former president. even then still if you're going by what kavanaugh said, he wasn't really that into the idea back then. and so in the court of public opinion, i mean, we're showing now that that's not what kavanaugh said. so yeah, he's going for it. maybe trying to give a wink at

yeah, i know this is a silly argument but i did appoint you through that tough confirmation process, by the way. it's important to remember though this is a republican court but it's not the trump court. it hasn't always been as generous to him. and the appointees on the court, who might be the most favorable to trump, aren't necessarily is but republican bush appointees. those might be the ones he has better luck with in this case. >> jordan, thank you for spending time with us and for allowing us to bring your excellent work to the screen. if you want more of jordan's legal analysis, you can sign up for the deadline legal newsletter. just follow the qr code you see right there. if you sign up right now, we're going to get a fresh newsletter with a round up of all of the week's biggest legal stories delivered to your inbox tomorrow. basil is sticking around. when we return, one of the republicans spearheading the impeachment inquiry of president biden, an exchange you do not want to miss. stay with us. ange you do not want to miss

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but together we can help connect america's kids with meals. so please call now or go online to give. thank you. congress has oversight responsibility and should continue down that road. however, that does not mean that we should go towards impeachment. i have yet to see an evidence that would warrant the rise to impeachment. >> more and more republicans are starting to admit what we have known all along. that there is no evidence president biden committed any

high crimes or misdemeanors. now, it's one thing for a member of congress to say the quiet part out loud on earth one, but it is another when over on earth two, news max, the far right network which has had wall to wall coverage of the circus starts to say it, too. >> is impeachment the next step? are you going to hold a vote on the house floor? i know it's up to mike johnson, but the margins. you lost mccarthy. santos was ousted. unless you get democratic votes, this is going to be real tough. so it kind of seems like you're chasing your tail because this is not going to go anywhere. >> fair question. >> joining us now, member of the house oversight committee, democratic congressman, jasmine crockett of texas. basil is also back with us. representative, we have often described this as a vibes based impeachment because that's it. there's no evidence. so i wonder what the vibes are

like now in room for your gop colleagues who are starting to finally come to the realization that that is not going to happen. >> the vibes in the room are not that they have had a come to jesus as some would say. instead, they really do feel like this is really important for them to do. it's all about campaigning. because as we know, this is a do nothing congress and so we've done nothing productive but when you come from a ruby red district, you end up winning votes or you win your primary because you get to say joe biden really isn't the president. joe biden, you know. he is worse than trump. joe biden should be impeached. and so they're playing games and honestly, the american people cannot afford to have another term where the republicans are quote unquote in control because all they're going to do is play games and honestly, this is like russian roulette. it is very dangerous to decide that you are going to bring about impeachment in any form

even in the inquiry form simply because you feel like it will score your political points. our system is supposed to be bigger and better than this and it's a very dangerous precedent to set. that's why you see even a freedom caucus member like ken buck saying this is unconstitutional and i'm out. >> this is from ian sam, deputy assistant to the president in response to james comer to testify. lol, comer knows 20 plus witnesses have testified potus did nothing wrong, that the hundreds of thousands of pages he's received have reputed his false allegations. this is a sad stunt at the end of a dead impeachment. call it a day. i wonder what you make of the way the president biden campaign has handled this? >> just fine and hunter biden saying i'm done now. all very good. and to the point because you know, the larger trump strategy

has not just been to delay. it's also to defame. they're doing that to the bidens. also to fani willis in georgia. that's part of this larger tactic. but to representative crockett's point, let's focus on the campaigning. you have mike lawlor talking. why is it important he's there? because he's in one of those districts they're targeting here in new york and it looks for democrats to take back. so if you're any such member of congress, you're looking at this saying give me something to campaign you're saying, give me something to campaign on and take back to my district. the republican majority continues to fail to do that. >> what's so interesting to me, you have comber saying instead he's going to potentially look at criminal referrals. they are trying to find off ramps you detailed without the

humiliation of putting this up for a vote. >> yeah, well, they've been humiliated thanks to the amazing democrats on my committee. every chance that we get we tear them apart, but i will also say, one of the things that hasn't really been highlighted a ton, i know that some people cover the fact that jared moscowicz, my classmate, he did a very risky thing, he called for the vote on yesterday and comber wasn't willing to take the vote. it tells you everything that you need to know. this is nothing more than gamesmanship but you know what, it's like what basil just said. it's the defamation. it's trying to bring everyone down to the swamp where trump resides, right? it's trying to make it seem as if this is just politics on any given day. well, let me tell you, america has never been dragged through

the mud so bad since we decided that he was even allowed to be on the ballot to run for president. the fact that we have somebody that is four time indicted and has 80 plus counts of felonies that are pending against him across these various jurisdictions where he was indicted by grand jurys of his peers tells you everything. no one will ever be as bad as trump. i don't know how to get it through the thing sculls of the cult members of the trump cult, but no one will ever be this because that's not what it is to be an american and that's not what it is to potentially rise to the level of presidency, especially after being accused of sexual assault, especially after being accused of being fraudulent and running your companies and corporations. and so this idea that we have a sitting president, president biden, who doesn't have any of this on his record and so it's a matter of let's just throw mud

and hope that something sticks. that's not going to work. when you talk about a mike lawlor, yes, i fully anticipate mundair jones is going to take him out because not only is it campaign time, he's sitting in a biden seat. >> congresswoman jasmine and basil, thank you for spending time with us. we're going to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. nd help... but then i asked my doctor about tepezza. (vo) tepezza is the only medicine that treats t.e.d. at the source not just the symptoms. in a clinical study more than 8 out of 10 patients taking tepezza had less eye bulging. tepezza is an infusion and may cause infusion reactions. tell your doctor right away if you experience high blood pressure, fast heartbeat, shortness of breath or muscle pain.

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