police in texas are investigating what caused a cement truck to veer into the path of the packed school bus killing two people including a child. the students were returning from a field trip to the zoo. no word on if the truck driver will be charged. that is a wrap for today. see you tomorrow. up next, the beat weekend. welcome to the beat

weekend. i'm ari melber. let's get to the headlines. let's be clear about what's happening. trump is appealing a finding it his business engaged in fraud. now his very effort to do that appeal and challenge the finding involves spin or lies about money and about his business. trump had claimed in the deposition for this very case that he had the kind of money that his lawyers now say he doesn't have. that's why they desperately told the court that every letter they've asked for a bond has shut them down. trump has claimed it is his success that brought on all these cases and problems. that can happen in life. there was another brash new yorker with legal problems who coined the famous dilemma, mo

money, mo problems. he claims that federal officials were flagrant trapping his phone. the more money we come across the more problems we see he recounted in the famous song. tonight, trump has the opposite issue. we are now at the stage in the story that can only be called no money, more problems. trump admits he does not have the money. he cannot cover these legal problems. he is stuck in this tough new york state set of course you have to pay to appeal or he could see his assets seized by the attorney general who beat him in the case and says the new york state government here through the lawful process others have to deal with may go ahead and start by taking his estate at seven springs. we can import that the front judgment is registered in westchester county where his most valuable properties are at risk. they cite the golf club and the

seven springs estate. trump appears to have a hand in his increasingly unusual and desperate fundraising emails on the topic. you can see it here playing up the risk to a different property that more of his fans around the country no as he typed in all caps, trump tower is mine. monday's deadline is part of the larger stack of bills that he owes. it goes up to about $600 million from these various losses. it is part of why his lawyers say securing the bond has become a practical impossibility. that admission treads another key claim that donald trump has long been making about not only his supposed business wealth and acumen but why when he turned to politics he claimed that being so rich with provide him more independence than other typical politicians. you may say you have never believed this or dismissed it a long time ago but he's running for president right now and that kind of persona does appeal to people, especially people that don't follow

politics but think everybody is bought and sold. what is important tonight and why this is also a campaign problem is that it is not true. this was a staple of his first run for office. >> i don't need anybody's money . i'm using my own money. i'm not using the lobbyist's. i'm not using donors. i don't care. i'm really rich. >> maybe he's not as rich as people think. not that it matters but i'm much richer. >> on much richer, much stronger. i would not be running unless i was really rich. i put in my financials that show that i am much richer. my company is phenomenal. >> whether you think that is how we should measure people especially for public service, he was making a potentially logical link. he was arguing that made him independent because he would not know anybody. we see today that whatever buildings and properties he may own part of by his own admission

not only does he have money but he will be deeply in debt to somebody. this was such a big theme in his narrative and his appeal that is now in doubt today. it's a political problem for him. it's one that if one out of every 10 or 20 republicans does not like or finds it as a problem that they were lied to, that could hurt him on the campaign trail. that's only one piece of it. there is also the measurable cash crunch on the campaign. we reported this week democrats have now doubled trump and the republican party campaign cash at this point in time from the most recent numbers we haven't of february. then look at the specific ways the cash crunch is showing. a trump rally was recently canceled at the last minute over the desire to save money, cnn reported. the new fundraising agreement with the rnc also reroutes some of those large dollar donors, the elite donors that give big checks, money goes first to an

entity which covers his legal fees before the republican party gets its cut. it's the same that we know put $50 million into legal expenses for trump over the last year. he is also diverting about $0.10 on every dollar from his online fundraising that used to be just $0.00 one. that is a big shift as the legal fees mount and he can't afford them. trump is getting the rnc to take these actions that are against its own financial interest and those of fellow republicans because he became the presumptive nominee because he recently purged the staff and installed a family member. just weeks ago aides were claiming they would not route money into his legal bills. now as you can see from the structure it looks like they will keep doing that. the cash crunch stretches from

his personal debts to these rough waters for campaign funding. that political funding, of course, actually has its own problems because it is not unlimited. the new york times reporting that this group may actually run dry by summer at the current pace of spending. they either need to spend less or raise more. i mentioned that trump personally has the reverse problem no money more problems. the campaign also has a different issue that also was diagnosed in the 1990s wrap. opp. you might remember that song. it refers to other people's property. over the years he has used hundreds of millions of dollars of other people's property, donated cash, to subsidize him. that include some of the obviously futile money wasted projects like searching for election fraud after he lost in 2020. he took other people's property and through it at it. now he's diverting money to his

legal bills. now he is down with opp. here is the thing. there are signs that a lot of other people from the banks to some very high dollar republican donors and even some of the one-time mega grassroots donors are no longer down with opp and their money funding this charade. we will be right back with a special guest to break this down. if you have chronic kidney disease you can reduce the risk of kidney failure with farxiga. because there are places you'd like to be.

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♪♪ from money money money to no money more problems, donald trump's entire identity brand, business, identity, and funding have all coalesced here. before the deadline for his

half billion dollar fraud judgment. we are joined by one of our trusted thinkers on these issues. welcome back. >> it is good to be back. >> i could have booked a bail bondsman. i could have looked in a number of true billionaires, liquid billionaires as you know can get funding. they don't publicly do that for weeks. do you know why we booked you? >> is it my charm and good looks? >> always good to be confident. because, while we have covered each of those points and monday will be a legal day for trump and the courts, contrary to dc, public efficient does shift sometimes in response to reality. that is why we have seen some elections go different ways i

want to get your read on if there is a threshold that this much money begging and bankruptcy talk and the general charade doesn't affect his campaign. >> it very much pierces his image with they have to remember back in 2015, 2016 when he first emerged politically. he did so as a highly successful businessman who helped create highly successful deals. we know all of it was a charade, but the problem is that this image she had put forward for american politics is evaporating and exploding before our eyes. especially when you think about the fact that his main challenge will have to keep those nikki haley voters who really don't like him. keep them in his camp in november. this makes it much

harder. >> here's one of his former spokespersons that was with him up until the end in the white house that used to sell the line he is so bulletproof independent. here's what she is saying now. >> where is he going to turn? there's a possibility he will look to foreign adversaries or individuals. given oligarch or chinese business official wants to get this money i have no question he would end up accepting it. >> if it were a movie it would seem like to need a pot line to have this person in this kind of debt as the general election begins and the open discussion of the fact that he could be more compromised than most people in both parties. >> the idea that he would be a manchurian candidate president. it would be out in the open who

owns him and why they would be doing so. that would be a major problem. the question we have to ask is why aren't rich donors given to him? what is going on there? the reason is they give to republicans because they want tax cuts. however, at some point the calculus for getting those donations to get those tax cuts start to turn on themselves. how much are you being asked to give for tax cuts that may never happen. he may not win. he may not be able to get them through a democratic house. he might not be able to convince his own advisors to go along with the tax cuts. those are prospective possibilities that you have to wait before you give enormous amounts of money that he is asking for. in addition, i think it is very grading for rich donors to pay the legal fees of somebody who has claimed to be a billionaire all these years. i think it is perfectly --

personally grading for a lot of these donors. >> 11 is a trump ally. he poses the question from a different vantage point. he says why are there no republican multibillionaire's lending the funds to file the appeal in this outrageous case. are none of them liquid enough? this is an outrage. mark levin is doing something that he thinks is helpful. we saw him trying to publicly berate them which i thought was an awkward way to fund raise. this is coming from somewhere. it seems to suggest a desire for that to happen. you just walk through why it may not happen. if you are a republican rich person you must not identify with donald trump as a peer at this point. it's possible that he's a technical billionaire but he is

certainly not liquid. >> rich people generally don't like lost causes. you don't make money that way but i think a lot of them can smell that this is a potentially bad bet. i think this would have a major impact. of trump has less money he can do less advertising. he can use free media the way he's always used it with more controversial remarks and getting more free coverage that way to compensate for the fact that he can't do traditional fundraising that way. coming up, trump employee number five. it is his first time on msnbc.'s recently >> reporter: in his silence. he's our guest next. next. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat

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election day. they are awaiting the scheduled trial date in the mar-a-lago classified documents case. an essential witness has just emerged. one of these individuals that was not named according to federal practice . he was identified initially as trump employee number five. he is referred to as a valet at the club. we have learned his name is brian butler. >> so you are now publicly describing moving materials related to the classified documents case. >> trump employee number five is named brian butler. >> this central figure in the case. >> an extraordinary firsthand look. >> brian butler's name could be a matter of public record sooner than we expect. >> a gold witness. is an insider. longtime employee. he first visited over 20 years ago and had close relationships with the former president and

the codefendant and property manager. mr. butler is revealed, which is new. he spoke to federal prosecutors and has the testimony that jack smith and investigators think is relevant to prosecuting and possibly incarcerating former president trump. he is our special guest for the first time tonight. thank you for being here. >> thank you. >> you know a lot of things that people are interested in. let's start with you. why are you choosing to come forward and speak out now? >> it weighed on me. it was march 8 of 2023 when investigators first came to talk to me. i was not home. i was out with carlos at the time. it has been up and down since then. i did not plan on speaking out publicly. then, about three or four weeks

ago i was reading the news and reading the court filings and they were going to release the witness list. at that point ultimately i said let me jump in front of this. i thought it would be better to tell my side that it just coming out in the news publicly without me having a say or anything. >> right. you have been around some of this process probably with other people's experiences and watched donald trump over the last few years up close. so the doj contacted you in march. did you immediately cooperate? would you describe your interactions with them as full cooperation? >> yes. i had actually reached out to my attorney before they had ever came to talk to me. i did not hire him at the time but i had his number on speed dial, i guess you could say if

i was contacted. >> did you arrange immunity or get the perception from them that you were not a target? >> i don't believe i was ever a target. i did not receive any deals or ask for a deal. i know since i spoke out last week it's one of the reasons i agreed to come on today is a lot of this misinformation has been said. i received no deal. i received no money for speaking out. nothing. >> who was pushing the misinformation in your view? >> you know, it's a lot of the former president's followers from what i see. >> so you view them some people as trying to impugn some aspect of what you are doing. you say you told the truth and you did not get a deal for a. >> i had no reason to ask for a deal in my opinion. >> so how would you describe your interactions with the doj? obviously there are some things

you can't get into and we respect that, but did you talk to them for hours, days, what were the questions like? >> i was very forthcoming. they asked the questions that i answered honestly. i think four or five meetings over the course of a few months. i told them what i knew and answer their questions honestly. i have nothing to hide. >> does that count speaking before the grand jury? >> i believe so. publicly about five times in putting the grand jury the time i testified in front of the grand jury. >> that is a good chunk of time. when you were in front of the grand jury what were the type of things they were focused on? >> we talked about june 3, obviously, the moving of boxes and luggage to the plane. i talked about the conversations with carlos over june, july,

august all the way up until just prior to the indictment. we were in constant contact. we talked about a couple of meetings. some phone calls that i received asking about him but i answered everything honestly. >> one of the allegations or complaints by the former president as you know is that these prosecutors are somehow partisan and have an agenda and are not interested in the truth. based strictly on your interactions, did you find them to fit any of that characterization or did you find them to be on the level? >> i think they were just doing their jobs that they have been tasked to do. they took a sworn oath to uphold the laws of the united states. i do not see this being a witch hunt.. i think the former president,

if he thinks he did nothing wrong he should have cooperated from the beginning on this. >> fair. i just want to play because there is this perspective, what he is saying. take a look. >> they are breaking every lots of. secured us. it's been one witchhunt and phony investigation after another. these are ridiculous indictments. the single greatest witchhunt of all time. >> it is crooked stuff. these are crooked people. deranged jack smith. >> they have no legal ground. it's what they did. i got four indictments. >> is he right or wrong? >> i mean, the way i see it if these were his personal documents or he is allowed to have these by the pra, why would you need to ask questions

about video footage, why would you possibly move the documents when they were coming to retrieve them? to me it just doesn't make any sense. on top of that, why would you put two lower-level employees in the position they are in if you did nothing wrong and these are your personal documents? >> so you are saying in the way that he acted trying to hide and the people he brought into it, you think you observed part of a cover-up? >> i think it is very possible. from what i saw, the questions, why would they ask about video footage, how long it is deleted for? those are conversations carlos told me he was tasked with finding out prior to walt's arrival on a secret trip.

>> how different was that than usual? you describe secret, furtive operations and then while they are talking to the fbi other boxes are being moved off the premises. how usual or unusual was that approach? >> i did not know anything of what was going on at the time. like i said before, it was like a puzzle. little pieces over the course of six months i realized something was going on. >> let me put up something based on publicly available evidence but now we talked to you. we you could probably build a better chart than this, but this was the timeline part that emerges from the evidence. one of the key point is that they gave back some boxes. than the government have the impression it was not full. the doj asked for more documents

what they thought was the missing documents. then trump says, we have these other 38. they return that and then continue. these are the red arrows. you lived this. they continue to hide these other documents and then the doj finds them and then you get the charges. does that match what you experienced? i'm now sitting where you are do you know why he did not just give it all back ? in which case he probably never would have been charged. >> your chart seems to match up. at the time i knew nothing about it. the only time i knew about boxes and there may be something going on was probably late june early july when i received a phone call from the corporate head of security and he asked why didn't you tell me carlos moved boxes. at that point is when they had received some type of subpoena

for video footage. so that is when i first realized boxes. >> so you have the impression from the people around that trump knew the things that went down were bad or illegal and he did not want that on video. >> absolutely. why else would you need to know the video footage and why were they calling and asking me, why didn't you tell me he was on video moving boxes? >> it is interesting. i am skipping ahead with the notes i have. we have something where trump tells newsmax last weekend tells megan kelly a very different version of what you observed. basically that nothing was a cover-up because he thinks he has always had the right to all of this. so this is newsmax. take a look. >> i took them very legally. i was not hiding them. i had the right to do it, in my opinion and my lawyer's opinion.

i am allowed to take the scope documents classified are not classified. frankly when i have them they become unclassified. people think you have to go through will ritual. you don't. >> did he actually always act like he was not hiding them and what would you tell the jury if asked on that question? >> none of that makes sense to me from what i went through and i believe what carlos and walt went through. if they were so -- if he really believed those were his documents, why was i vouching for carlos in a signal first by phone to walt telling him that you can trust carlos. when walt calls me and asked me somebody wants to make sure he's good and i am vouching for carlos on his loyalty and that he would

never do anything to affect his relationship with the boss. >> let's put that on the screen. we only got your name recently. i want to show so people can follow along. two weeks after they uncover the classified documents jack smith called you and said somebody wants to make sure carlos is good. you said he was loyal. in the same day trump tells carlos he would get him an attorney. what did loyalty mean men? >> to me it means whatever was going on with him, with carlos, walter the former president was that he was not going to say anything to affect what was going on at the time >> so translation potentially another trump staffer committing a new crime of misleading or lying to federal investigators. >> that sounds correct.

moments after that phone call with walt and then i confirmed to the chat in a group with who i know at the time is susie wiles. i don't remember ever talking to her before. i'm telling her in a chat message how loyal carlos is. >> are they using signal because they thought they would not get caught? the fact that it is in jack smith's invite -- indictment means they got caught. >> i am not sure. i guess that is the messenger app of choice for obvious reasons. >> so again with the jury if the defense is largely i thought i wasn't doing anything wrong so at best it is a misunderstanding over paperwork and was that your observation? is that what you saw? your answer is what? >> i think there is obviously

some type of obstruction but that is not, i am not an attorney. >> you did not see him saying it is all good. you saw him hiding. >> absolutely not. moments after the signal i confirms that, he received a call from the former president right in front of me. >> why did you quit after all those years? >> it was time. i spent 20 years there. i had other opportunities. i think it was time. i -- the place changed dramatically once he became president. it just wasn't the fun place that a lot of us -- we had a really good time with a lot of the stuff and it was just time to go. >> your name only became public recently. have you heard from the former president or his representative since that time? >> i have not. >> you have not seen him attack

you in public. why do you think that is? you said you wanted to go first meeting others may come second. why do you think he has not addressed what you said? >> i am not sure. i'm speaking truthfully so i think it is harder to attack truth. i do not know. >> did you vote for donald trump in 2016? >> i did. >> did you vote for him in 2020? >> what was that? >> did you vote for him in 2020? >> correct. yes. >> you voted for him both times. >> i did. >> you vote for him again now that he is running in november? >> i would not. >> brian butler, really interesting to get a first-hand account of what you went through both originally and then with the special counsel's office. i know that you are in demand.

i appreciate you coming on tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> ryan butler, the trump witness as we mentioned. we will be right back with reaction from joyce fans. ♪♪ ugh! nope! try my old spice you can use it on your pits, chest, and even, your... toes? [both] oh that's fresh! ♪♪ ♪ old spice whistle ♪ this is david's look of joy. and this is his john deere z530m mower. ♪♪ that cuts with so much precision

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and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. we just heard for the first time from one of special counsel jack smith's key witnesses, ryan butler. we are joined now by joyce fans. what do you think prosecutors will be most interested in

using from him now? >> when prosecutors build a case they don't rely on any one witness. they layer witness and evidence on top of each other to make the case. this is a fact witness to obstruction of justice. butler testifies both to his personal involvement, his movement of boxes. the most important thing that i heard from him is this testimony that he is asked to vouch for one of the other employees. one of the codefendants. after he vouches a couple of different times that this defendant receives a phone call from president trump. this is mop level loyalty behavior. i think it will be telling. >> in that hole, we know we messed up and now we are trying to cover it up. is that more important because you can get obstruction charges with this new crime or to the

original criminal intent for a president that says i used to be able to handle this stuff. i used to be able to drop nukes. does it go to the original intent? >> it does. this is one of the advantages of charging obstruction of justice. it's a separate crime but it also hot helps to not only create intent on the willful retention charges. it just gives the jury a margin of comfort that this was not an accident or unintentional. it was criminal because otherwise why would they have taken the steps to cover it up. >> what did you think of his demeanor as a potential witness? prosecutors have to assess what a jury will relate to. >> as a prosecutor you get nervous any time one of your witnesses is out in public talking on the media. i have to believe that mr.

smith is not super happy with this witness. here is the reason. it's not that prosecutors are trying to play high the ball. this is now a prior statement that he can be cross-examined about. that can be fodder for the defense. this is a man who comes across as credible. is a longtime employee. a two time trump voter. he says i became uncomfortable and here's the fact because he did not want to be caught up in criminal activity. >> as you said that's an extra point. he is a 16 maga voter and a 20 maga voter. we appreciate having you. up next, i promised something very important. we are looking at this maga polarization from the state of the union and the attacks on the president. where do we go as a country knowing that the presidential race is coming? we have something very special. joe walsh and joe lucas, next. .

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american politics are very divided. you know that. most americans are actually concerned about even though many blame different sites and causes for it. the state of the union is a big tradition. one of the only times you have people from across the aisle all gathered in a room and the country watches. this year was more partisan than usual. you had republicans breaking decorum and yelling at the president and the president having it back. that's what many want to see, a fighter right now. there is a common almost clichid calls that we just need a better dialogue. famed centrist david brooks says maybe it's as simple as talking to each other with social courage and crossing group lines to have conversations. dialogue can be great. it also has its limits. you at least need some basic respect across parties if you are going to talk.

you need to have some kind of common fact. it is more than just saying let's all talk. there's a big hit song and music video exploring some of these tensions and he wants his. i want to share it with you right now. this is joe lucas wrapping both sides of the maga debate showing the prospects and limits of dialogue. it features his voice narrating two opposing views reflected out of the mouths of two different actors. here first as it is the song comes the so-called maga side. >> blame it on the menu. blame it on those drinks. blame it on everybody except for your own race. blaming the white citizens. >> a bunch of class clouds. how you dared try to make demands of this money. show us some respect and stand for the country. >> i am not racist. just prepared for this type of war. >> quote, i'm not racist.

i just prepared for this type of war.". in this music video we see here the same voice and artist having a different perspective. >> even though the rock was half is black you hated president obama that is a fact. you couldn't wait to get him out and put a cracker back. you gave us donald trump. i'm not racist. i never lie but i noticed the disconnect between your culture and mine. all you care about is money and power. you teach it to your children and the cycle continues. blame it on puerto rico and oj. blame it on everybody except for your own race. >> blame it on everybody except your own race. you can see in the art, life reflected or maybe challenging us to think a little bit deeper about the lives we want to live together. as for joyner lucas he's known for decisive commentary like that with collapse like logic,

j cole and many more. as four albums and two grammy nominations. his upcoming album not now i'm busy available for presale. there is the face and here is the man. joyner lucas making his debut for this special conversation along with joan walsh. >> what's up. i appreciate that. >> we appreciate that. what were you showing and that powerful video which might be new to some viewers but it has hundreds of millions of euros and listens. >> i was just trying to force a conversation amongst the parties where we can sit down and tell each other how we feel and hug it out versus a different story which is what usually happens of those conversations. >> what did it mean to you to both and have it as an artist

those perspectives and have as we saw this red hat white american mega man -- maga man speaking in your voice but your voice was using the words that might not be okay for him to use. what were you doing with all that? what did you want us to take? >> honestly the storytelling perspective comes from the higher power. i think it was through something greater than me. getting those conversations going. i have never been racist but i have been able to tap into the mind of somebody who is racist to create that. >> i have a weird question for you. in doing that work, whatever you do to create that, did you at any point feel somehow closer to or empathetic with what the character was doing? >> of course. i have experienced racism so doing the other part was a

little bit easier to do. but the beginning part >> so doing the maga part was harder at first. >> again, i feel like i was channeling something greater than me to be able to write that record and the other record with the choose -- two side perspective. >> it is very important. i think that there was a kind of empathy that i as a white person don't necessarily feel toward those attitudes but in a way you've had to deal with it all your life. i thought the line about getting rid of president obama. i always think that trump is there payback for obama. it's just so directly from obama to trump it is tragic. i don't think a lot of white people think about it that way. i was glad to see that there. >> i agree with you. >> why is it so important for

everyone to say i'm not racist? we hear that a lot. >> i think -- you talking about racist people or just people in general? >> let me say it as charitably as possible. i hear it from people espousing views and positions and candidates that are anti-civil rights. it is very important. the first time i saw the video i kind of laughed and then i said there's a lot in here and i re-watched it. >> speaking specifically in the song, i dealt with that and emphasized i'm not racist my sister-in-law's babies cousins, it seems like racists always have a black friend or family member and they have to somehow justify that they know somebody that is black. you know what i mean? >> that means they can't be racist.

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good evening, and welcome to "politicsnation." tonight's lead buzzer beaters -- march madness is also gripping the