we will be keeping an eye n the building behind you. thank you for joining us. we appreciate it. thank you to you for getting up "way too early" on this monday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. they're trying to put my father out of business. they're trying to take his resources he'd otherwise put into his own campaign for presidency. this is new york state. this is what we're seeing. letitia james campaigned on this promise, and now they're making him do something that's not physically possible. putting up a half a billion dollar bond? bonds that size don't exist in this country. >> eric trump complaining yesterday on fox news about the massive bonds his father needs to pay in the civil fraud against him, but it's not the only legal issue today for the former president. we'll get into all of that in just a moment. also ahead, the latest on a potential deal between israel and hamas that would free

hundreds of palestinian prisoners in exchange for dozens of hostages. we'll also go through the republican-led chaos in the house after a far-right lawmaker laid the groundwork for possibly removing speaker mike johnson. and the former head of the rnc says she was just taking one for the team for not speaking out against donald trump's extreme comments tied to january 6th. that's not all. we'll be talking about her hiring here at nbc, as well, and msnbc. good morning. welcome to "morning joe." it is monday, march 25th. with us, we have the host of "way too early," white house bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. former u.s. attorney and msnbc contributor, chuck rosenberg. and rogers chair in the american presidency at vanderbilt university, historian jon meacham is with us this morning. we'll dive right in, beginning

with a huge day legally for donald trump. he is expected to be in a new york courtroom this morning for a hearing on the hush money case against him. the trial was supposed to start today, but it was delayed earlier this month after federal prosecutors turned over thousands of documents which the manhattan district attorney's office says are largely irrelevant to the case. the judge is now expected to set a new start date for the criminal trial. today is also the deadline for trump to put up a bond of nearly half a billion dollars in the civil fraud case. the bond would prevent the new york attorney general from collecting on the judgment while he appeals. trump's attorneys have asked an appellate court to reduce, delay, or waive the bond. but as "the washington post" reports, the appeals court generally issues rulings on tuesdays and thursdays, so there is very little chance it will

act today. >> chuck rosenberg, what should we be expecting this week? how significant will it be for the former president? >> well, it could be very significant if the attorney general of the state of new york, joe, begins to move against his assets. let me add a note here, if i may. just because a prosecutor can do something doesn't necessarily mean that she should do something. we know that mr. trump has asked an appellate court to either reduce or waive the bond that he would have to pay. we may have a decision from that appellate court soon. it might be prudent in this case for the attorney general to wait and sew what the appellate court says before she starts moving against the assets. you know, again, prosecutors have a lot of authority and a lot of power, but you don't always have to use it at its fullest, in every case, in every instance, just because you can. so if i were the attorney general here, i'd like to hear what the appellate court has to

do about the amount of the bond and whether they're going to reduce it. because you can always move against the assets on tuesday or thursday or monday of next week. it might make sense to wait and see. >> jonathan lemire, obviously, this is a massive bond. it obviously makes a bad situation much worse for donald trump. but there was also -- and, man, i don't -- i'm not exactly sure how his truth social deal is going the way it is, but it looks like a ponzi scheme to me. i don't understand it. this is, though, a social media network that doesn't appear to be successful, yet people are throwing around $5 billion here, $5 billion there. does that throw donald trump an economic lifeline in the short

term? >> certainly, nothing is going to materialize by today. you're right about truth social. it is a website that, frankly, no one uses. it has very little traction outside of the extreme maga right. it is where trump continues to post. since he was kicked off of twitter after january 6th, i believe he's only posted one thing since, which was his mugshot when he was indicted in georgia last summer. he's still trying to drive interest to truth social. it's not really working. there have been, you know, merger deals rumored for a couple years now. it all fell apart. >> where does this massive valuation come from? >> same thing all over again. >> it is a -- >> and in a free and open and fair market, i mean, if you're just talking about economic incinerations, who would invest in this company unless you were trying to curry favor with somebody who you think will be the next president of the united states. >> you hit it there.

someone trying to curry favor with who they believe will be the next president of the united states. we've seen people do that of late. with truth social, it is not a success by any measure. yet, there seems to be money coming. it's not done, but there's rumors of money coming there that could change trump's financial picture. it wouldn't arrive in time to stave off this bond, so this is a separate issue for trump. it could come down the road and allow him to reset his financial footing. you know, there's also talk about what will happen today. is this going to lead to trump declaring bankruptcy, which, of course, is a tool he's used before. that won't get him out of, experts say, won't get him out of paying the judgment, but it could delay things. it'd be a black eye for the former businessman who touts himself as the master of the corporate universe. it is part of his deal while making his pitch for the presidency. that could, if he does that, could buy him some time, and maybe, joe and mika, the

financial lifeline for truth social or another one would emerge. >> all right. i'm reading now in the "wall street journal" editorial page an editorial. it's not like "the wall street journal" is late to this game, telling republicans that they really should try to govern instead of acting like a minority. jon meacham, i'll just close here with this op-ed. it says, "honey, we shrunk the gop majority." it says, "conservatives have had a strong anti-washington impulse to give the federal government relentless drive to expand its own power. but breaking that drive and rolling back power requires calculation and often incremental gains. all the more so in a divided government. the posers of the house gop remind us of a comment former senator jim diment said, rather have four senators agree than

the majority. congratulations. the house gop is close to realizing this ambition. republicans keep quitting." they want no part of this. the chaos gets worse. republicans themselves are saying we've accomplished absolutely nothing this session. now, they're talking about vacating the chair again. i just -- the incompetence, the political insanity is just, again, just beyond. i can't imagine voter -- and "the wall street journal" editorial page agrees, can't imagine voters and contributors aren't looking at this going, we didn't pay for this. we're not going to vote for this or support this for two more years. >> yeah, it's the distinction, isn't it, between a political party and the way we understand them as governing elements within a constitutional

structure and a cult, right? i mean, if you're going to be id id -- it you want to be loyal to the whims and appetites of one person who tells you what to do, and then you do it no matter what, versus a party that, i think, let's go ahead and do edmund burke on monday morning. a body of men united for a kind of common purpose. >> right. >> what he meant was a governing purpose. >> yeah. >> the governing purpose here is not. all in all, this once noble party has become a vehicle for the appetites of one person. it's these moderate republicans who are just bailing. the great question, as we've talked about forever now, is at what point does the party itself

begin to put interests of ideas and governing above the slavish following of one person? >> so diving into that for the second time this year, house republicans have launched an effort to remove their elected leader. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene introduced a motion to vacate house speaker mike johnson on friday. she and other hard line conservatives have expressed anger at johnson ushered through the federal funding bill to avoid a government shutdown. there is no vote for johnson's ouster yet, but the threat will hang over his head, just as it did for kevin mccarthy. speaking of former house speaker kevin mccarthy, he had this to say about the situation yesterday. >> speaker johnson is doing the very best job he can. it's a difficult situation. look, the one advice i would give to the conference and to the speaker is, do not be

fearful of a motion to vacate. i do not think they could do it again. focus on the country. focus on the job you're supposed to do. actually do it fearlessly. just move forward. >> i just -- move on. >> interesting. >> just move on. >> interesting, katty kay, that he would say that. >> i can't. >> when he actually was courageous on january 6th and then folded. that seems to be the problem with the majority of the people in this caucus. you know, they passed up a chance to get signed into law the toughest border bill ever because donald trump told them not to. everything they do, as jon meacham said, you know, is affected by this shadow that trump casts over the house. and if you look at recent history, this is a guy that costs republicans the white

house, cost republicans the senate. couple years ago, cost republicans the house. it looks like he is going to do it again. >> monday morning lessons in political courage from kevin mccarthy is almost as good a way of starting the week as burke. >> yes. >> you know, we could go there. that same op-ed you read from, "the wall street journal" one, has another one i think is kind of indicative of all of this. just a couple paragraphs down, joe, it says, "after we, "the wall street journal," criticized that october coup as destructive and self-serving, matt gaetz wrote a letter saying we have a real conservative leader now. what is wrong with him now? he won't involve himself in kamikaze acts, and now johnson is a sellout, too." that's where the party is. it's almost that kamikaze is the point. chaos, not governing, fighting, all of those things are what

donald trump loves to do, right? donald trump always said it's all about the fight. it's constantly about the fight. it doesn't really matter what the fight is about. i think for matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene, it's about showing their supporters back home that they are fighters. governing, well, hell with it. that can come later or never, but the fight is what is important. >> right. >> that's the tone that was set by donald trump, and it's certainly the tone they've adopted. >> it's all about gesturing. we've talked about this for some time. >> performative. >> governing by gesture. also, as jon said, almost a cultlike fealty to a fearless leader. time and time again, you do things against your interest. when pushed, you, in the words of somebody we're about to talk about, you take one for the team. >> why don't we go there?

>> okay. >> all right. let's talk about the hiring of former rnc chair ronna mcdaniel. >> well, she was on sunday's "meet the press." it was her first appearance since nbc news hired her as a political analyst. i know you won't be surprised to know that we've been inundated with calls this weekend, as have most people connected with this network, about nbc's decision to hire her. we learned about the hiring when we read about it in the press on friday. we weren't asked our opinion of the hiring, but if we were, we would have strongly objected to it for several reasons. including but not limited to, as lawyers might say, ms. mcdaniels' role in donald trump's fake elector scheme and her pressuring election officials to not certify election results while donald trump was on the phone. >> to be clear, we believe nbc

news should seek out conservative republican voices to provide balance in their election coverage, but it should be conservative republicans, not a person who used her position of power to be an anti-democracy election denier. we hope nbc will reconsider its decision. it goes without saying that she will not be a guest on "morning joe" in her capacity as a paid contributor. here's why. >> but to the question, though, do you disagree with trump saying he's going to free those who have been charged with -- >> i do not think people who committed violent acts on january 6th should be freed. >> so you disagree with that? he's been saying that for months. why not speak out earlier? why just speak out about that now? >> when you're the rnc chair, you kind of take one for the whole team, right? now i get to be a little more myself, right? >> well, this is what you said a year ago to chris wallace. i want to play what you said.

>> sure. >> are you saying as the chair of the republican party that you still have questions as to whether or not joe biden was the dually elected president? >> joe biden is the president. >> i didn't ask whether he was the president. >> i don't think -- >> did he win the election? >> there were lots of problems with 2020. >> did he win the election? >> ultimately, he won the election, but there were lots of problems with the 2020 election. 100%. >> that's fair. >> i don't think he won it fair. i don't. i'm not going to say that. >> so you didn't say he won it fair at that point. can you say, as you sit here today, did joe biden win the election fair and square? >> he won. he is the legitimate. >> fair and square? >> fair and square he won, it's certified, it's done. >> why has it taken you until now to say that? >> let me -- >> why has it taken you until now to say that? >> i'll push back. it is fair to say there were problems in 2020. to say that does not mean he is not the legitimate president. >> but when you -- >> jon meacham -- >> exhausting. >> we don't need to sort through

a lot here. let's just focus in on what i think history will focus innen in on, if you don't mind me stepping into your lane for a minute. because she really summed up the sickness in the republican party. when asked by kristen welker, why did you go along with the whitewashing of political violence? why didn't you speak out against those who tried to overturn american democracy, those who beat the hell out of cops, those who rioted at the united states capitol at the instruction of donald trump, the guidance of donald trump, the inspiration of donald trump? why not? she said, sometimes you have to take one for the team. i suppose that's what lindsey graham will tell us after all of

this is over, marco rrubio. >> what team, exactly? >> i can go down a list of once conservative republicans who are now a member of donald trump's cult. i do think those words, take one for the team, when you're asked why you didn't stand up and speak out against political violence that was focused on overturning american democracy, i think those are words that, unfortunately, describe the republican party over the past seven years. >> it encapsulates the central problem of the age. it encapsulates, in many ways, the existential question that we face. if it's your team and it's not reason, logic, decency, and the constitution, and it's the team that's the most important, and you're in the arena, my opinion,

you are not being true to an american tradition of constitutional consensus, where we fight about issues, we try to come to a resolution for a given period of time. and if you lose, you run in the next election, and you try to win. you endure and you don't actually put -- marshall the forces of violence and the forge forces of reflective destruction because you want to win. it's not simple but it is straightforward. taking one for the team is the problem. pause the team is not as important as the rule of law, the constitution. you know, a lot of folks from omaha beach to the edmund pettis

bridge shed a lot of blood so we wouldn't just take one for the team, we'd try to take one for the constitution. >> yeah. >> i think that's the stakes of the age. you know, i don't mean to be preachy about it, and lord knows i make mistakes all the time. >> not preachy. >> i'm not -- you know, but i think this is it. i think you're exactly right. the thing that drives me crazy, crazier than i usually am, you and i know -- let's say scores of people in public life, most of whose names, most of the folks who are listening to us right now would know or be dimly aware of, who, if donald trump were a rockefeller republican, would be rockefeller republicans today. >> right. >> yeah. >> it's not about the merits of the argument. it's about maintaining power. when that becomes your central question, that's the failure.

>> jon, it's not ideology. it's not ideology. there are a lot of conservative republicans serving donald trump that i would disagree with, but they stood up on january 6th. they spoke out. i mean, it's this inverted pyramid. again, taking one for the team, it's such a clarifying statement. you know, one thing i've been struggling with, jon, and i know you have, too, i've been struggling really, really hard, and mika will tell you this, for years, but especially as we're moving into this new election cycle, on trying to understand. a lot of people i grew up with in the church are unrecognizable now when you talk politics. i'll tell you, the team, i guess it's how we define the team.

for me, the team, it's a pyramid. it's god, country, constitution, for me, conservatism. for others, it's being progressive. it's liberalism. that's how it goes. politicians and parties, for me, have always been at the bottom of -- of that list. for some reason, it's been inverted. instead of god, country, constitution, conservatism, and then politicians and party, it's been inverted. now, it is donald trump. >> personality. >> it's donald trump. >> yeah. >> and everything flows from that. so when -- i guess i shouldn't -- when i hear that, again, very clarifying, i guess

i should -- i guess i shouldn't be staying up trying to figure out what happened to them. this is what happened to them. they completely -- their value system flipped, and donald trump is on top. everything that's done goes through that filter. everything is justified. everything he does is justified. political violence is justified. his lifestyle is justified. his hatred is justified. his racism is justified. all the things my friends would have spoken out about when i was growing up, when bill clinton was president, when they were shocked, stunned, and deeply saddened by bill clinton, now, the pyramid is flipped. instead of god on the top and then country and constitution and conservatism, it is donald trump, and everything is inverted in the opposite direction. i suppose all in pursuit of

power. >> it's what i think it is. i think it is very elemental. i think it is ultimately a moral crisis, and i mean that not in a sunday school way. but you have to choose, do you believe that american democracy, as imperfect as it is, is worth preserving? if you do, you have to acknowledge the legitimacy of an opposition. what ultimately happened, and the legacy of the post 2020 election, is that an american president for the first time in 240 years attempted to violently thwart the transfer, peaceful transfer of power. >> yeah. >> therefore, therefore, i believe, and i never thought i would say this, i think there is a moral duty, if the choice is between donald trump and

president biden, to vote for president biden, despite any policy disagreements you might have. because whatever else you want to say about president biden, he believes in the constitution. let me tell you just a quick story about somebody that i won't name but you and i know. this is in the take it for the team zone. year ago or so, i was making this point in a private conversation. i was just saying, look, i never thought i'd say this, but, you know, you have to vote -- this was probably right before 2022. i said, i think this is a place where you have to vote in a partisan way to preserve the constitutional order, which sounds, if you're thinking about it very quickly, as taking one for the team. but it is not really that, right? it is a comparative question. i said this, i said, it just comes down to, you know, joe biden didn't try to sack the capitol, or some sort of moderately casual, colloquial

formulation. how is that? the person i was talking to said, "yeah, but, you know, joe biden tried to forgive student lone loans, and that might be unconstitutional." at that point, i wanted to take my lighter and set my hair on fire. [ laughter ] because, right? >> i know. >> right? look -- >> a new form of gaslighting. >> you've had these conversations. it is like, oh, okay, so you're telling me that january 6th and a policy decision that's being litigated over student loans, that's the same? if that's the thinking -- >> i -- yeah. >> that's a great example. >> great example. forgive me for being personal, but i'll give my favorite example. after donald trump called me a murderer 12 times and tried to get me thrown in jail, said i should be prosecuted, after the 2020 election, i asked one of my friends why they voted for

donald trump. it was like, i'm curious, he did accuse me of murder and wanted to throw me in jail and have me executed. curious, why did you vote for him? this is a close friend who, again, i've said this on the show before. if i needed a lung for a transplant, he'd give it to me. he just would. >> right. >> i asked him, you know this guy tried to put me in jail and have me executed. i'm just curious, why did you vote for him? he thought a second and goes, regulations. jon, what do you say to that? i mean, seriously. i was like, okay, great, yeah, regulations. yeah, thanks. >> yeah, that continuing resolution is a real -- >> yeah. >> we're just in a different zone. i want to be clear, whatever nbc and -- that's a whole different thing. i'm not commenting on that. i'm commenting on a culture of election denialism and a

reflective partisanship and loyalty to a person. partisanship is fine. we're supposed to be partisan. >> right. >> jefferson said, parties have always divided themselves. that's all fine. but when the partisanship becomes reflexive instead of reflective, we are headed down a liberal path. we are headed down that path, and we have to turn back. >> again, it is -- it's not about not wanting conservatives on the air. i'm conservative. check my record, i'm probably more conservative, a lot more conservative than so many people that criticize me from the trump right. but i was in politics. i'm here. jon, you helped the president from time to time with speeches. you're here. we've had other people on that are involved. jen psaki is. of course, nicolle wallace is, worked for george w. bush.

>> they bring value to the table and expertise. >> yeah. again, we encourage people to be partisan and fight for what they believe in. >> about election denialism, though, chuck rosenberg, bringing you into how history will look at the legal aspect of this, it's still ongoing. the jack smith cases with fake electors. i also feel we run into, on ronna mccdaniel, issues that ar still involved. >> you're not here to talk about her, but where is the fake elek electors' case now? >> the one indicted in federal court in the district of columbia is on appeal to the supreme court on the question of absolute immunity. i don't know when we're going to have a resolution there. it should be relatively soon because i think it is a

relatively easy issue, but that remains to be seen. but if i may add one note. i know i'm not here to talk about politics, but i've been in -- >> please do. >> -- public life for many years. i've always put it this way. this is my formulation. you always want to create an environment and you always want to look for people who are courageous enough to say no in a sea of yes. that is an extraordinarily hard thing for people to do. but that's the kind of leader you want to be. that's the kind of leader you want to work for. i think some people forget, right, where their values lie, where their loyalties lie, what their obligations, are, what their duties are. but saying no in a sea of yes is not only appropriate, it is freeing. if you want a job more that be than you want your reputation or income, it leads you to say what everyone else is saying. you know, this notion of taking

one for the team, i think, is extraordinaily dangerous. i don't mean to sort of engage in a parade of horribles, but all ms. mcdaniel had to do was say, no, that's not what happened. if it costs me my job, that's okay. i'll leave with less income but more of my reputation in tact. creating an environment where everyone can say no in a sea of yes on either side, on any issue, is an imperative. i'm afraid we're not good at it sometimes. >> well said. >> chuck rosenberg, thank you very much. jon meacham, thank you, as well. we appropriate you both coming on this morning. still ahead on "morning joe," what we're learning about a potential cease-fire deal between israel and hamas that would trade hundreds of palestinian prisoners for the release of hostages. plus, we'll have the latest from moscow following friday's deadly terror attack that has led to conflicting reports from the u.s. and russia about who to

blame. also ahead, former supreme court justice stephen breyer will be our guest this morning. we'll talk to him about his stance on the dobbs decision, the future of the high court, and much more. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. rsv can severely affect the lungs and lower airways. but i'm protected with arexvy. arexvy is a vaccine used to prevent lower respiratory disease from rsv in people 60 years and older. rsv can be serious for those over 60, including those with asthma, diabetes, copd, and certain other conditions. but i'm protected. arexvy is proven to be over 82% effective

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next stage when you switch to shopify. officials say isis is responsible for a deadly terror attack in moscow. on friday night, four men stormed a concert hall, killing at least 137 people with guns, knives, and explosives. the suspected terrorists have since been arrested and charged

along with seven others believed to be involved. in the aftermath of the attack, isis claimed responsibility for the violence without providing any proof. speaking to his country on saturday, russian president vladimir putin made no mention of isis, whose afghan affiliate isis-k claimed responsibility for the assault, and, instead, suggested that ukraine was behind the massacre. those accusations were quickly rejected by the u.s. national security council, which noted the u.s., quote, shared information with russia about a planned terrorist attack in moscow later this month. >> let's bring in retired cia officer marc polymeropoulos, security and intelligence analyst. first, marc, i was thinking over the weekend as i was reading about the aftermath of this just absolute tragedy, horrific tragedy outside of moscow, that

the united states warned iran of a deadly isis attack a couple months back. then the united states warned russia that this attack was coming. of course, vladimir putin roundly criticized the united states for those warnings, saying that we were just trying to scare them. by the way, you know, i'm so -- i'm just so exhausted. 60 years in, i'm so exhausted hearing people trying to paint the united states and russia and china with the same broad brush. the moral equivalency has been revoting for years, with the united states and those of us in the west, compared to dictators and tyrants. i only say that to say, would russia warn us? would iran warn us if they knew there was about to be an explosion in times square?

i mean, these are people who say death to america. these are people who consider us their sworn enemies. they are defined by their hatred of us. yet, the united states of america feels like they have a duty to warn. to warn others that their people's lives may be in peril. i don't find that extraordinary because i'm an american. that's what we do. i find it extraordinary that people still preach moral equivalency between the united states and other, other tyrannical countries. it's just disgusting. i doubt they'd do that for us. >> well, joe, you're right. because they would not do that for us. i've been involved in some of these. you can call it an exchange or maybe a one-way passage of information. what we have is a duty to warn. that's a moral, ethical obligation. when u.s. intelligence

community, it is actually policy. it is called intelligence community directive 191, for kind of the intel geeks out there. present company included. but it's the notion that when we collect information, which civilians may be harmed, we're going to pass it not only to friends but also our most bitter adversaries. we do it because it is ethical, moral. perhaps there would be u.s. citizens who could be caught up. it is something that just, if you're in the counterterrorism world like i was, it's just something we do. but you're 100% right, joe, that doesn't mean the iranians would do it for us. it certainly doesn't mean the russians would do it for us. one of the other things, too, is when we do pass such information, we don't always see that countries who receive this action it. in this case, march 7th, when we passed this information, it looks like vladimir putin and the russians did not take it seriously, really with catastrophicconsequences. >> there seems to be a disconnect between vladimir putin, though his government was given intel suggesting an attack might happen, and his inability to protect his civilians from

this kind of a security attack. yet, his intense, laser focus on protecting his own government from political opposition. i'm just wondering, do you think he suffers any kind of backlash for that in russia? any other leader, you know, even benjamin netanyahu will face an investigation and will probably face removal from office by his own security failures when it came to the attacks of october 7th. do you think there will be any blowback against vladimir putin for the fact that he failed to heed the warnings and protect his civilians, and, yet, he does such a good job of clamping down on political opposition? >> right, katty. at the end of the day, the russian security services, which should be the preeminent organ that protects russian civilians, the russian people, instead, they're solely focused on pushing down dissent. they're focused on keeping vladimir putin in power. this was a, yet again, a catastrophic intelligence failure. the question of whether they'll face any sanctions is something that's hard to judge.

i would think actually not. you know, at the end of the day, what you're seeing right now is this move, whether it is vladimir putin himself or russian propaganda, to try to blame ukraine. the terrorists were kind of moving toward the border of ukraine. this is kind of the narrative that is put forth. of course, there is no evidence. probably nonsense. last point, you see barbaric behavior by the russian security services, this will be hard for people to hear. on russian telegram, there is video where the russians take one of the terrorists and cut his ear off and try to stuff it in his mouth. this same individual was paraded in front of the cameras as one of those they caught. the storyboard, what they're going to put forth and what occurred, you know, based on brutal interrogations, i don't think we can believe what they say on this. the last piece, there is no western press in moscow, as well, so we're never going to really see the russians kind of come and admit these kind of failures. they're going to blame ukraine and, ultimately, i don't think russian security services will face any sanction, at least not

in public. >> certainly, u.s. security officials fear there could be a rise of isis style attacks elsewhere in the west. we should note, as putin blames ukraine, reports this morning of air-raid sirens over kyiv and other ukrainian cities. marc, let's turn to the situation in gaza. reports that a deal might be close for israel to release a few hundred palestinian prisoners, some involved with previous terror activities in exchange for some hostages there in gaza. israel has signed off on this deal which was pushed by the u.s. in meetings in qatar a few days ago. those talks have stopped, but the offer remains on the table for hamas. they would resume if hamas signals they'd be into it. hamas has yet to do so. what's your read here? we've been here so many times before, where there are the prison cease-fire agreements seemingly on the doorstep, and hamas keeps saying no. what's your take? >> jonathan, i think this is a really critical moment. we've talked so much on this

show about the humanitarian catastrophe that is occurring. obviously, we've talked quite a lot about the diplomatic riff between israel and the u.s. a cease-fire could alleviate a lot of the issues. they could rush aid into gaza. the temperature goes down dramatically between the u.s. and israel because aid comes in. the hostages come home. then the u.s. and israel can talk about this rafah operation, which, and i've said many times before, a ways out but still a point of contention. a key point is hamas is now holding up the agreement. the israelis have moved quite a bit. they've talked about relocating palestinians back to the north of gaza. there's issues of the number of palestinian prisoners to be released. ultimately, israel, i think probably because of u.s. pressure, and a lot because of the efforts of cia director bill burns, israel has moved forward on this. the question is, what will hamas say in return? i think the answer is expected in a couple days. a really important moment.

>> retired cia officer marc polymeropoulos, thank you very much. we appreciate it. coming up, nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley joins us ahead of a key ruling today on a controversial texas immigration law. plus, we'll discuss kate middleton's cancer announcement after weeks of speculation about her health. and pablo torre coming up next to talk about march madness. >> "morning joe" will be right back. (♪♪) hi, what's your name? this is our new friend. we'll talk about it later, ok? (♪♪) what does a cat need? -chewy's here. (♪♪) [smash] (♪♪) no, no, no, no. that good? hey, wait, come back. (♪♪) is this normal? ask the chewy vet team. how much is too much catnip? for everything you need and everything you need to know.

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when i was your age, we never had anything like this. what? wifi? wifi that works all over the house, even the basement. the basement. so i can finally throw that party... and invite shannon barnes. dream do come true. xfinity gives you reliable wifi with wall-to-wall coverage on all your devices, even when everyone is online. maybe we'll even get married one day. i wonder what i will be doing? probably still living here with mom and dad. fast reliable speeds right where you need them. that's wall-to-wall wifi on the xfinity 10g network. for the inbounding, looking. >> one of the big moments in the second round of this year's men's march madness tournament. unfortunately, for the aggies, the big shot to send the game into ot last night would be in vain. the top seeded houston cougars

would ultimately prevail and advance to the sweet 16. let's bring in the host of "pablo torre finds out" on meadowlark media, pablo torre. long-time columnist and best selling author mike lupica joins us. along with msnbc contributor mike barnicle. good to have you on. >> pablo, i'm reminded every spring why i love college basketball so much. i may not know all the players. as larry david once said, i cannot be held responsible for knowing all the names of the players on drake. >> who is on drake? >> or gonzaga's point guard. >> i'm with larry. >> like third or fourth string. we can't be held responsible. still, there is this magic in seeing a team like yale go up and be a giant killer. the a&m shot at the end. there have been so many surprises. oakland beating kentucky. my father rolled over in his

grave when that happened. but we could go down the list. i'm curious, though, in this crazy tournament, what is your biggest surprise so far? >> yeah, i was on this show talking to you last week, and i was saying, i see an iron bowl in the final four. i see auburn, alabama. joe, your crimson tide has survived, but auburn lost to yale. like, that part, i think we need to say that aloud. i'm supposed to be the dude who sees the ivy league snobbery, you know, victorious. i'mphecy that. instead, i had it backward. the surprise, beyond my bracket being destroyed, is you have nc state. oakland beats kentucky. nc state beats oakland. nc state won seven games in a row. they went through the acc tournament and beat duke, beat carolina, beat virginia. now, they're into the tournament on one of those runs. larry david is right. knowing too much about this is

absolutely a disadvantage. i'd take it a step further. >> it is. >> you get fooled. i'll take the sweep of the season in context here. just take the hot team. nc state going as an 11 seed to the sweet 16. four acc teams in the sweet 16. that, to me, is shocking and also, for me personally, humiliating, given i saw none of that. >> yeah, you know, mike lupica, again, just talking about march madness, i'm reminded by nc state this year getting in only because they won the acc tournament. if i'm not mistaken, that's how jim valvano's nc state team got into it, i believe, in '84 and produced one of the greatest upsets in college basketball history. anything can happen in this tournament. what's your takeaway so far? >> well, nc state is the only cinderella team. they kind of invented cinderella when my late friend, jimmy

valvano, was the coach. unfortunately, or fortunately for the tournament, this has become a chalk event, joe. there are 12 teams left who are either one, two, three, or four seeds. all of the ones are left. all of the twos are left. the big east won six games. acc won eight games. the seedings have really held. as hard as they sell cinderella this time of year, it is like spike and barkley selling it, there is a curfew for the teams. i love the nc state story. they're crazy in the middle of the acc tournament. they would have never made the ncaa tournament if they hadn't won the acc tournament. but this is a very, very blue bloody tournament we have left now. >> yeah, it's a lot of chalk. i will say, uconn, number one team in the nation, handled its

first two games with ease this weekend. >> they did. >> mike barnicle, for you and i, as much as we love march madness, more importantly, opening day is on the horizon. thursday, our red sox are on the west coast, 0-1. that's not the biggest name in baseball. it's shohei ohtani involved in a very weird moment. his team is now accusing his interpreter, also his closest friend who has been with him for years there in southern california, of stealing $4.5 million from ohtani to pay off gambling debts. that story has changed. initially, there was reporting that ohtani had given him the money. now, the interpreter took it from him. none of it great. what is your sense right now about this tale and how it's a story that baseball simply can't afford? >> well, there's a whole thread to this story. first of all, it is a major, major peril for major league baseball. major league baseball is obviously alert every day, all day, in every clubhouse to

gambling because of major league baseball's history with gambling. >> yes. >> the other aspect of this is ohtani's interpreter, he can star in the great imposter. he made up parts of his background, including working for the red sox at one point, which he did not. the third part is, major league baseball and every baseball fan should really be praying that the greatest star that's appeared in the major league baseball stage over the last, maybe since babe ruth, ohtani, did not bet on any games. that's the hope here. the other aspect of that is, and pablo referenced this earlier when we were talking off camera, you would be stunned, i think everyone would be stunned, at the number of professional athletes who make in the gazinga millions of dollars a year, have no idea of what happens to large sums of money that belong to them, through agents, through friends, people who surround them. >> no question. >> no idea what happens. >> certainly, joe, the leagues

are very -- even as the rise of sports betting throughout society, every league has embraced it but they still don't want players near it. no one accused ohtani of that yet, but he's going to address the media about the situation later today. >> well, you know, again, i say it all the time as i tell my kids. if something doesn't make any sense, there's a reason it doesn't make any sense. it doesn't make any sense to think that an interpreter who has been friends with ohtani would steal $4.5 million from him, nobody would notice it, and the $4.5 million wouldn't go into a bank account or to purchase a home, but immediately go to pay gambling debts. i'm sorry, pablo, but i'm afraid if they really dig deep here, it looks like baseball's biggest

star, and a guy who has inspired millions, including my son, may be in the middle of a career-challenging gambling controversy. >> oh, it's a modern nightmare. i mean, mike eluded to it. gambling money is what is fueling so much of sports right now everywhere. the reason baseball is now, of course, reacting even with some sort of measured caution as to how do they deal with it reflects two things. as you said, number one, the star power of ohtani. number two, the reality that bam gambling money is everywhere. ask pete rose how it feels to be accused of gambling on sports. baseball in this case is not the accusation, betting on baseball. my god, the existentialism around this, if ohtani gets caught up in this, the only saving grace is that he got scammed by his best friend. this is a man, ohtani, we don't know, the interpreter. we're living this live, which is

terrifying to everybody. >> i mean, does it make any sense, mike llupica, he got scammed by his best friend? or does it make far more sense that he had to pay off gambling debts of $4.5 million and his best friend did it for him? again, who -- the thing that concerns me, whether it's the dodgers, major league baseball, the powers that be, understand there's so much money in ohtani being successful that they allow the interpreter to be the fall guy. does that story make any sense to you? >> no. joe, i don't know if we're going to learn much from ohtani today, but if the story changes again, they're going to name a figure skating move after it, okay? first, it was a loan to help a brother out. by the way, a $500,000 wire action increments. overnight, ohtani's people were like "casa blanca," joe, they were shocked to discover

gambling was going on in here. they had understood how serious this story was. the feds are involved now. baseball can only do so much because they have no subpoena power. but we know so little about this story, even as much as we think we know, it's a mess. >> it's a mess. before we go, let's all embarrass ourselves, which i do every day. >> something different? >> i'll start with you, pablo. i'll have you embarrass yourself first on tape. >> great. >> who is going to win the ncaa tournament? >> i think it's mika's uconn huskies. i've watched them. they haven't trailed for a second so far. >> see? >> mike lupica. >> he is smart. >> i think uconn is going to be the first team since florida nearly 20 years ago to win back-to-back titles. joe, they shot 3 for 22 from threes last night and didn't make any difference. they blew out northwestern. >> yeah. jonathan lemire, who is your pick? >> this is deeply boring. i'm disappointing everyone here, but, yeah, also uconn.

i don't think there is a necessarily great team in the tournament, but they're the best of the lot. >> yeah. before i asked, i was going to say uconn. they've looked like, you know -- they've been giants. i don't see anybody out there. mike barnicle, anybody up there that can keep up with uconn? >> no. i'm hoping marquette could because they're a catholic college. that's it. >> there we go. >> that's nice. >> opening day. >> well, so that has it. uconn will be defeated next week. eliminated from the tournament. >> done. >> in the great eight. we have just doomed them. >> i'm a husky fan. espn's pablo torre, thank you. mike lupica, thank you, as well. we are a few seconds into the second hour of "morning joe." it is monday, march 25th. jonathan lemire, mike barnicle, and katty kay are still with us. joining the conversation, we have author and nbc news

presidential historian michael beschloss with us. we begin with the huge day legally for former president donald trump. he is expected to be in a new york courtroom this morning for a hearing on the hush money case. the trial was supposed to start today, but it was delayed earlier this month after federal prosecutors turned over thousands of documents which the manhattan district attorney's office says are largely irrelevant to the case. the judge is expected to now set a new start date for the criminal trial. meanwhile, today is also the deadline for donald trump's to put up a bond of nearly half a being dollars in the civil fraud case against him. the bond would prevent the new york attorney general from collecting on the judgment while he appeals. trump's attorneys have asked an appellate court to reduce, delay, or waive the bond, but as

"the washington post" reports, the appeals court generally issues rulings on tuesdays and thursdays, so there is very little chance it will act today. one more for you. donald trump could be forced to declare bankruptcy if he is unable to post his $450 million bond in the civil fraud case. that's according to financial journalist bill cohen, who argued going this route could buy the president some more time. >> you suggested he might have to file for bankruptcy? or he might file for bankruptcy? how likely would that be? >> peter, i think it is his only choice at this point. you know, the only way he is going to -- unless the court of appeals comes through for him and reduces the amount of what he has to pay or the bond or gives him more time, again, i don't see a new york state court of appeals doing it for this guy. why should they? but they might. so if that happens, okay. that's one way. if that doesn't happen, then he's out of luck.

he's going to have to file for personal bankruptcy. that way, he can stay the judgment, stay any asset sales, buy himself a whole lot of time. you know, this thing going into bakruptcy court would definitely buy him time. maybe a year. maybe two years. it's like a free fall bankruptcy. who knows what kind of mess he's got there. you know, he could -- and then, you know, the state of new york becomes a general insecure creditor of the trump organization or of donald trump personally, whatever ends up being the debtor here. you know, who knows where they would fall or what recovery they would get. that's probably his best way of reducing the size of the judgment. it's his best way of having, like, an orderly sale of his assets. you know, he will lose them, but he will lose the assets, absolutely. he'll have to pay the judgment, but it'd all be done in a much

more timely, slower, more orderly way than the next five days. >> well, again, he would lose the assets if he lost on appeal. there are some people who have been arguing that he may not lose on appeal because they may say the penalty against him is excessive. again, that's something that he is certainly hoping to reach on appeal. we won't know until the appellate court answers that. katty kay, though, we sit here on a monday morning, and donald trump is waking up in the middle of a campaign. his campaign is cash poor. he's got to worry about the manhattan d.a. that's actually -- you know, we dismiss this manhattan d.a. case, or i do, as the weakest of the cases. the legal theory, to me at least, and i think to other

lawyers, is jumbled at best. because we say that, because i say that, i forget, this is a criminal case. he could do time here. i only bring that up to say he has that staring him down this monday morning. he has his campaign problems staring him down this monday morning. he has this $450 million plus bond he has staring him down. i really do at times wonder, with all these things weighing down on one person, how the guy keeps going. 89 counts? >> 88. they could go up again. >> it's incoming constantly. >> obviously, at this point, there are many on the legal side wishing we were dealing with the jack smith january 6th case or the mar-a-lago documents case, both of which, i'm sure you'd agree, joe --

>> yes. >> -- look more solid than the hush money case, but that's the case we have. even that, it's a criminal case, that has to be weighing on donald trump. it looks like it'll go ahead within the next month, even with this small delay. all of those things, the fact that he's not raising money, the complications around getting money from donors but some of it having to be siphoned off to pay his legal fees, the trials themselves, the prospect of losing a huge amount of his assets to pay this bond, it's very hard to imagine how that's not weighing on donald trump. all he can do, i guess, is take solace from the fact that when he turps up at those rallies, which are not as big as they were in 2020 or 2016, the crowds are not as huge that are greeting him as they were back then, he's still getting the adulation from his die-hard supporters. and he hasn't, from when you look at the polling, as

remarkable as it might seen from 2020 to 2024, he doesn't seem to be losing much of that base. it is still solidly donald trump's party. he is still enacting this takeover of the rnc. you talk about ronna mcdaniel, but we're talking about lara trump now at the rnc. he's still putting up offices around the country. his team think that he's doing the kind of shakeup of the party that are going to make their financial efforts, you know, more effective and bring in more money. >> right. >> it's hard to see how the pressures don't weigh on a 77-year-old man. the pressure of running for president is hard enough, lord knows. with all of this, as well, it's got to be tough. >> yeah. it would weigh on anybody. >> exhaust anybody. >> exhaust. i mean, even one count. mike, though, katty said that they hope that they've brought in the right team to get more money. you know, donald trump's donations are down, $200,000

down from this time, i believe, in 2020, 2016. you look at the money. he is way behind joe biden as far as fundraising goes. he's got all of these outside problems. the thing, though, if you're a republican and a conservative and you actually care about winning elections and you aren't in this trump cult, you look at what "the wall street journal" is saying today. house republicans are dooming themselves to be in a permanent minority status. democrats are out fundraising them in the house. you now see the rnc has set itself up, and they have a deal where if you contribute to the republican party, it is funneled in a way that goes to donald trump's legal problems first. you tick down the list. it doesn't get to candidates, doesn't get to anybody that actually is going to determine

whether republicans win or not in the fall until after donald trump is satisfied he's got enough legal money out of these contributions. i mean, it is a disaster for republicans. >> you know, joe, i read the editorial you eluded to, and you read part of it earlier. my question would be, why would anyone think, after the republican party, living for nearly a decade, nearly a decade with this scamster, this conman, this criminal who has led the republican party, why would anyone think that the republican party, legitimate members of the old republican party who still exist and are hard to find, certainly hard to hear speaking out against trump, why would anyone be convinced they'd suddenly say, hey, let's turn this around and start to govern legitimately? it's not going to happen. >> yeah. >> michael beschloss, and maybe

we're just the wrong vehicle to drive this message, but, i swear, i've been saying it nonstop, that what i am saying does not hurt republicans. what i say here day in and day out, what "the wall street journal" editorial page has been trying to tell the house gop day in and day out, that's not anti-conservative. that's not anti-republican. we're not anti-conservative. i am a conseconservative. i'm more conservative than most of the yahoos who call themselves conservative today. but they continue down this path. i'm going to say it again, it led to them losing the elections in 2017, 2018, 2019, 2020, 2021,

2022, and 2023. being shocked every year at how republicans underperform in the age of trump. now, they've put him as their party head again going into the fall, a guy who is taking their contributions for his legal problems. >> unbelievable. well, let's start with the question this morning, mika and joe, why did we americans fight a revolution? we fought it because, you know, the americans and the colonies were working very hard in shops and on farms, and our money was being taken by the king. was brought across the waters in the stamp act, and the tea party was an example of rebellion against this. we were not working for the king. in the united states, in case donald trump does not know it, the president works for us. we're not supposed to be working for him.

we're not supposed to be sending him my money. i'm not sending him money, but people who donate to the republican party. the other thing is, for most of american history, i don't think this was too much to ask, we had a couple of threshold questions that were baseline if you wanted to be president. number one, who are you? well, george washington said, i fought the war of independence. abraham lincoln said, i was a public servant and a lawyer. donald trump said, i was an extremely successful businessman who he claimed in 2015 made $10 billion. we now know, especially this week, that whatever he made was through fraud. also, this was not the business reputation that he was peddling on a very popular tv show and everything he has done since then. does he obey the law? no, he doesn't obey the law. we'll find that out this week in other trials. also, you know, i'll close with

this. threshold question for all of american history, every single president swears an oath to preserve and protect the constitution. we've got to all answer that question. did donald trump do that on the 6th of january? >> there you go. there you go. joining us now, former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin from outside the courthouse in new york city. federal criminal defense attorney caroline polisi joins us, as well, a lecturer at columbia law school and msnbc political analyst. elise jordan is with us, as well. lisa, we'll start with you. tell us what you expect to hear today and what you'll be looking for. >> mika, i'm looking for how quickly judge merchant gets to the question of when this trial will take place. former president trump's motion here wasn't just for an adjournment. it was for a dismissal of the

entire indictment. on the theory that because the southern district of new york, an arm of the department of justice, responded to his subpoena with documents that he had never before been provided, that that, somehow, is proof positive that the manhattan district attorney's office has engaged in what would be called discovery misconduct. as a result of that, the whole case should go. i don't expect the judge to have much tolerance for that argument, but depending on how long the argument goes, it should tell you how seriously he is taking it or whether he cuts it to the quick and we have a quick and dirty argument about when this trial should start, mika. >> caroline polisi, same question to you. what will you be looking for? also, in terms of the bond issue since you have some specialty in regulatory investigations and commercial litigation, i'm curious if it gives you any insight into what the best option for trump would be in terms of making that bond. >> yeah.

so, first question on the trial today with judge merchant, barring the unlikely scenario that there is sort of a smoking gun, information, document, in what we call brady material in the federal system, which is information that the defendant is constitutionally, you know, bound to receive by the prosecution, i think this is going to be a blip on the radar screen. i don't think judge merchant is going to kick the trial date back past, you know, mid-april, where it's scheduled to now. i think that, you know, there are reasons to have this hearing. you know, the defense -- as a defense attorney, you can't sort of take the government's word for it that, you know, here are tens of thousands of documents but only 270 of them are relevant. by the way, we think the overwhelming majority is inculpatory, duplicative of the information we've already given you. i think judge marchant needs to

get to the bottom of this. this argument that the sdny and da's office was somehow ka lewd colluding is laughable if you know the history of those offices' relationships. the southern district of new york notoriously doesn't play well in the sandbox with other prosecutorial bodies. the idea they'd be colluding with alvin bragg's office is laughable. nonetheless, we'll see what happens. on the bond issue, you played the clip of trump filing for bankruptcy. i'm of the camp that that will never happen. savvy special litigators and sort of, new york city people that are in the business understand that filing for bankruptcy is not what it colloquially means. sometimes, it can be an important thing to do. in a vacuum, maybe. i would say to do that in the case of the bond, but trump is never going to file for bankruptcy.

i think he'll be able to cobble together the bond. >> he has before. >> yeah. >> certainly, he has before. of course, now he is in the middle of a presidential campaign. lisa, a couple things to you. first, let's assume this trial gets a go-ahead and it happens in april. how long do you think the trial will last? will we get a verdict ahead of voters going to the polls? let's get your sense here if the money, the bond doesn't appear, do you think the attorney general of the state of new york, letitia james, is going to start seizing his assets in the days ahead? >> well, let's start with the trial, john. the district attorney has told judge marchant he expects the trial to last four to six weeks. that's inclusive of jury selection. however, having attended three trump trials in the last 12 months alone, i can tell you that these things always take longer. his attorneys are specialists in the trump mo, which is delay, delay, delay.

i do expect that we would have a verdict, for example, before the political conventions, but do i expect that the trial will last four to six weeks, necessarily? no. let's go back to the bond, though. caroline said something i want to amplify about bankruptcy. there are other reasons i don't think trump will file for bankruptcy beyond his pride. if he were to declare bankruptcy, there is a likelihood he'd plunge many of his existing loan agreements into default. the amount that his lenders could collect if there were defaults under his outstanding loan agreements can be far in excess of the totality of what the office believes is needed for a bond. the other reason is joint and several liabilities. i hate to take our viewers to law school right now, but the judgment arthur engoron entered with respect to the civil fraud case holds trump and business entities jointly and separately liable for the judgment.

trump can't escape the judgment by putting a number of business entities into bankruptcy, nor can he escape by puts himself i. he'd have to go both at it once to halt any enforcement and litigation efforts. if you think donald trump is going to both declare himself personally bankrupt and then have a number of entities subsidiary to the trump organization and the trump organization itself in bang bankruptcy, you have another thing coming. my suspicion is he'll cobble together money from a variety of sources to post a bond, but it won't necessarily be today. that also means that although tish james can start enforcement efforts as soon as today or even sooner, really, there was nothing stopping her, that doesn't mean that a few days from now, we won't see trump post a bond to stay enforcement of the judgment as he sees the judgment through the appeal. >> michael, what is the closest

historical parallel to a politician this embroiled in legal problems in the run-up to an election? can you think of any history guidepost that can -- [ laughter ] >> i can give the shortest answer on earth, nothing at all. when have we seen -- especially not only a former president, a presidential candidate, punitive nominee in court this way? presidents in history, we elect them because they've been a success in their profession. i'm mentioning washington and lincoln. general grant won the war, the civil war, did a lot to help us win the civil war. dwight eisenhower led forces on d-day. if dwight eisenhower had failed on d-day and those forces had been turned back and they had to go back to the sea, do you think he would have had a prayer of being elected in 1952? donald trump this week is going to be shown as essentially a

fraud. this was never a successful businessman, someone who does not obey the law, someone who will not support the constitution. as i was saying earlier, more importantly than that, look at his record as president. two things, and i'll just say these. number one, our security and that of our children, we americans, is protected by an elaborate system of alliances. joe and mika, you talk about it a lot, beginning with nato. donald trump said, if i'm president again, i'll vandalize nato and tell putin to do whatever the hell you want, direct quote. a president is supposed to protect our lives. four years ago this month, the horrible covid pandemic began. how well did donald trump do in telling americans how to protect themselves, in mobilizing the forces of the federal government, to be frank about the danger that was here, how people could find some way to

make sure we survive this thing? you know, i leave it to you. all this year, day after day, we should say, what was donald trump doing four years ago today to avert a million deaths? didn't happen. >> exactly. >> you know, joe, listening to michael beschloss and everybody else here in the panel today talking about the myriad of issues and the weight of the problems, financial and political that donald trump carries each and every day, i'm just thinking that we have been carrying this fugitive from justice in our history literally for over three decades. before he even became a real public figure, appearing on "the apprentice," then running and winning the presidency of the united states. i used to think i had some sort of an answer, that he, you know, was acusing in on people's anger and resentment,

things around their lives, and that's one of the reasons he won. i no longer have an answer to it. he's been around and survived all of these incredible, weighty legal and political issues, and he's still here. still here. still a free man. i have no explanation for this, joe. what do you think? >> you know, while you were talking, i just thought about something that barack obama said. elise, i thought it was inciteful when he was running for president. he said something along the lines of, when people see me, they hold up a mirror and they see themselves, the possibilities for themselves. the possibilities for being an american. the possibilities of doing things you couldn't do in many other countries. i wonder if this is the other side of that mirror, and a mirror of resentment.

you know, the thing that has confounded us from the very beginning, and in 2015, i always talk about halperin and heilemann had a focus group, something you know a lot about, and there was the new hampshire woman with tattoos who was a blue collar worker. mark halperin asked, why do you support donald trump? her answer was, because he's one of us. he's not. he's never been. never will be. if he was one of us, he'd be in jail right now like all the people from january 6th. but he's been protected. so i wonder, again, is the vote for donald trump less about donald trump and more about the rejection of elites over the past 50, 60 years? >> joe, you nailed it. that's all it is about at the end of the day.

it is what donald trump has done so masterfully. he's made the grievances that he has the grievances that people have against him. it's not about him, he tells voters, it's about you. they are doing this to you. i am being persecuted. they're not doing this to me. they're doing this to you. by pushing the victimhood narrative, he has managed to make this not just about himself and his problems of the day but about a large swath of the country that is repulsed, frankly, by elites who are sitting in washington and they feel like dictating their lives and looking down on them. so he's just able to market that in a way unlike any other modern politician. >> which is why, mika, i know this sounds crazy, but everything about what's happened since 2015 politically has been crazy. donald trump declaring bankruptcy may be the best move

for him. not just economically but politically. >> i agree. >> for anybody out there who thinks donald trump having to file for bankruptcy because of a massive judgment against him, they think that will hurt him with his base. they haven't been paying attention. it'll hurt his pride. i don't think he'll do it because of his pride. but the base, if donald trump had to file bankruptcy, i actually think it'd help him politically. >> i think it would, too, and it's drag it out. he could use it. and the one of us term is interesting. to answer barnicle's question in a number of different ways, he inflated his assets in every way. he pretended to be the new hampshire woman, one of us. i connect with you. he was also aspirational.

>> yeah. >> everybody dreamed to wear the red hat and be rich and famous and have gold-plated everything. he symbolized success in that way. a lot of americans were really struggling day-to-day with their bills. >> yeah. >> absolutely felt aspirational in donald trump. >> right. >> so -- >> the thing is, though, jonathan lemire, being in politics, i have -- and doing the job i've done, interviewing people, i've met a lot of rich people in my life, a lot of billionaires. i've met a lot of self-made billionaires. one of us? i can understand it. like, i could name you ten extraordinary stories. you could, too. people who were born with nothing, who worked around the clock. a lot of people who didn't go to college, they just worked, worked, worked. they are american success

stories. what's so crazy on this one of us thing, donald trump inherited the equivalent of $400 million, lost it all. i mean, he's not one of them. never was one of them. which is why this whole one of us argument is confounding. you know, i think it was tom wicker that had a book about richard nixon called, "one of us." nixon was. nixon was born, you know, in a struggling family, just like reagan. you can talk about carter there. a lot of presidents, gerald ford, that grew up, bill clinton, that grew up and could say, hey, i'm one of you. i grew up like you. i understand what you're going through, what your family -- joe biden, my god, more than -- better than anybody else right now understands what people go through when they struggle. not donald trump.

>> hm-mm. >> that's where this whole one of us story line -- >> it's inflated. >> -- just doesn't make any sense. >> it doesn't make sense. we've been living with it nearly a decade now. this is a man with a skyscraper on fifth avenue with his name emblazoned in gold on the side. he lives in a penthouse there. yet, and yet, and i saw this while i was on the campaign trail in 2016, and you still hear it today, there are people out there who are very different from him. you know, from places whether it is pennsylvania, ohio, wisconsin, florida, wherever it might be, who says, this guy gets me. he understands. some is because he gives voice to grievance, gives voice to the feeling of, i hear you. you've been left behind. it is a rebellion against the elites. i think we don't want to lose sight of how powerful that was in 2016, coming not long after the financial meltdown. coming not that long after the middle eastern wars. not long after the election of a black man at president, which cannot be overstated there. so many white working class americans felt like, this country is changing and breaking

away from me. this guy will bring it back. you add that to the culture of celebrity and victimhood that's created since, and it's still a potent political mix. >> well, we tried to explain, mike. criminal defense attorney caroline polisi, thank you. we'll have to have you back and see how the bankruptcy bet plays out. msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin, thank you, as well. and nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss, thank you for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. friday's vote to keep the government funded sparked a new effort by republicans to strip congressman mike johnson of the speakership. we'll talk about the latest dysfunction among the house gop. plus, an appeals court is set to rule on a controversial, new immigration law in texas that gives local police powers previously reserved for federal officials. we'll talk to nbc news homeland

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welcome back to "morning joe." beautiful shot of the capitol on this monday morning. the fifth circuit court of appeals could issue a ruling today regarding a texas law that makes it a state crime for migrants to cross the border illegally. should migrants be found under that law, local police officers and state judges have the power to arrest and deport the m migrants. that power, until now, has been reserved solely for federal officials. this morning's possible ruling comes as the supreme court sent the case back to the fifth

circuit court after allowing the law to go into effect. the lower court then blocked its enforcement. joining us now, nbc news homeland security correspondent julia ainsley. julia, what are you expecting to hear from the appeals court? what's next? >> well, we don't know if it'll come today, mika, but we think the fifth circuit is speeding this up. last week when they got the decision from the supreme court where the justices said, you know what, sb4 can go into effect, they scrambled. they got together oral arguments in 24 hours. they heard the arguments last week. really, what we heard from texas wasn't that strong. in fact, they even questioned texas, are you able to put this into effect? what happens if an immigrant crossings in arizona and comes to texas? would you deport him? they couldn't answer basic questions. based on that, you'd think texas doesn't have good standing, except that the fifth circuit is probably the most conservative in the country. they very well could still side

with texas, kicking this back up to the supreme court. and we're still not even talking about merits. we're talking about a stay. >> right. julia, first of all, remind the viewers what the administration says in response to what texas is trying to do. and what is the timeline next? is it going to kick up after this, the appeals court to scotus? how does it go? >> they want to have oral arguments just based on the stay and then get into the merits, all staying within texas for now before it goes back up to the supreme court. of course, you could have an appeal to the supreme court if they allow it to go into effect. basically, what the biden administration is saying here, is that this would sow total chaos and confusion. you have a lot of people who aren't trained for this. imagine a magistrate judge deciding whether or not someone can stay in the country or not. someone who is not trained on asylum law at all. another party that i feel isn't talked about enough is mexico. they said they won't accept deportations from texas, saying it is inhumane and goes against

international law. can you imagine if mexico had to negotiate with every country -- or with every state along the border about whether or not they'd accept migrants? that's not what mexico is going to do. that'd make this law fall apart. unfortunately, they're not talking about the logistics now, they're just talking about whether or not it can go forward for the time being. >> julia, does it strike anybody as odd or unusual, this back and forth legal badminton between the supreme court and the federal appeals court in texas? it seems odd. >> yeah, it is odd. in fact, the justices last week said it was odd. i think it was justice barrett's argument. two concurring opinions who said, we have to do this because of how the fifth circuit set this up. they issued a stay pending appeal. it gave too much power to the supreme court to allow them to weigh in. they wanted to kick it back. they said, we're not weighing in on this. it's up to you. if you say go, it goes. that made the fifth circuit scramble and come up with their real decision on this. >> the other unusual aspect of

it might be, and it might be embarrassing to the supreme court, is the movement they're dealing with it. >> we've seen abbott move forward with something like this law, like razor wire, like buoys. the western district of texas says, no way, abbott. the fifth circuit reverses that, and then it goes to the supreme court. i was actually surprised last week with the way the supreme court ruled at first because over and over again, we've seen this court, although conservative, continue to say immigration is a federal issue. they sided with biden on his immigration enforcement priorities last summer. i thought that's how this would go. but we have to remember, they're not actually weighing in on whether or not sb4 is constitutional or not. they just said it should go back to the fifth circuit. >> julia, to switch gears slightly but still in the same realm of immigration, what are you hearing about how the administration's policy regarding haitian refugees is evolving or emerging as this

crisis in haiti keeps becoming more god awful? you read news reports of people walking down the street and having to avoid dead bodies because the gang warfare has gotten so intense. i think the coast guard sent back about 65 refugees who were trying to flee in a boat. what's the plan to the deal with that? >> they did. their policy remains. anyone they interdict at sea, they will send back. they say it is because they don't want people to take the dangerous journey. the boat was a sailboat. most people can't get fuel to leave haiti. it's a miracle they can get out of the ports because gangs control the ports, too. they've taken over the airport. it is a -- i mean, desperate doesn't begin to describe the situation there. i do think the biden administration is going to get a lot of pressure over how inhumane that looks, to keep sending people back. you also have migrants trying to walk over the border into dominican republic. that country is sending them back. really to a situation that could mean their deaths. if not through violence, then

through famine. it's been a difficult situation, and i think we'll start to see more pressure on the biden administration over how they treat haitians. >> all right. nbc's julia ainsley, thank you very much for your reporting this morning. we appreciate it. coming up on "morning joe," rates of depression and anxiety have spiked in recent years among teens and young people. you, a new book is investigating the trend and offering possible solutions to help us end theeen. we'll speak to the author next on "morning joe." hor next on "morning joe.

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a new book is sounding the alarm on the current mental health crisis facing youth in our country and what we can do about it. in "the anxious generation," author and social psychologist jonathan haidt spells out how

gen-z, those born after 1995, were the first to come of age bombarded by the alternative use of social media. staring them in the face 24/7 through their smartphones. the toll this way of life has taken on their well-being has been devastating. a new study by the kaiser family foundation reveals roughly one in five adolescents report experiencing symptoms of anxiety or depression. haidt argues there are ways to fix this. he joins us now. this is such an important book. thank you for writing it. i have kids in this category, and i see through the eyes of them and many of their friends and joe's kids exactly what you're saying. i would like to ad school shootings to this, which has become a way of life now for

young children. i wonder if that also, you agree, plays a role in this generation of anxiety. >> well, thanks so much for having me on. it's a big mystery because it is hitting all of us. we all have a theory about what causes it. fear of school shootings is what i hear a lot. the newtown shooting was 2012. that doesn't explain why the exact same thing happened, a collapse of mental health hitting especially girls and young girls in canada, the uk, australia, new zealand. it all starts around 2013. that's not because of the american school shootings. >> mm-hmm. >> so when this first broke out, we weren't sure, but now we know it is international, there's only one explanation. there is no other theory that can make sense of a synchronized global decline in mental health. in 2010, the majority of kids had a flip phone, no high-speed internet, no unlimited data, no instagram. by 2015, they all have a

smartphone, high-speed internet, unlimited data, instagram, front-facing camera. what i argue in the book is childhood was rewired in the five years. >> well, also, parents, teachers, communities lost control of the narrative of what children are exposed to when. so if you can imagine young kids with phones, with the internet, exposing them to all sorts of things that were definitely not, you know, a tap away before that. that would include porn. >> that's right. >> and hate and also a sense of inclusion or exclusion. they knew where everybody was, and the communication and the exposure would go all night long. i mean, it seems so obvious, and, at the same time, jonathan, it doesn't really feel like anything is being done about it

collectively. i will read about a school system or a community that is trying to ban smartphones in schools. that's not going to solve the problem. >> well, actually, that would make an enormous difference. >> it would start, but then they'd pick the phones up after school. >> okay. so, mika, what i'm hearing from you is what i hear from most parents and most teachers, which is, it's a hell of a problem. it is ruining everything. we're losing control. but what are you going to do? the problem is too big. we'll never solve it. it is resignation. that's what i feel hearing. what i argue in the book is that we're stuck because it is a series of collective action problems. that is, why do you feel you have to give your kid a smartphone in fifth or sixth grade? because everybody else did. why does she have to have instagram in seventh grade? she's the only one left out if you don't let her have it. what i argue in the book is once we see this, we parents, we're not getting much help from congress, congress created the problem and done nothing since 1998 to regulate it.

we parents and teachers, we can solve this if we act together. what i propose in the book is four norms that will be the foundation for a complete reform, for rolling back the phone-based childhood. the form norms briefly are, no smartphone until high school. no social media until 16. phone-free schools all day, not just during class, and a lot more independence, free play, and responsibility in the real world. if we do those four things, they're hard to do as a lone person, but if we do them collectively, easy. >> i love it. >> jonathan, i love the fact you're giving guidelines. every parent like get easy. >> jonathan, i love the fact that you're giving guidelines, because every parent like me is looking for them. 18-year-old the youngest of my four she's completely grown one smartphone. interestingly in the last four months she's deleted all social media apps from her phones.

finding it was causing too much anxiety. glimmers perhaps older than 15, 16, starting to say, wow, we have to do something about this. because our parents, teachers and members of congress aren't. they're done with it. >> absolutely, this is ra big reason for hope. gen-z has lot of problems, anxiety is making them less effective in the real world. but they're completely not in denial. they see the situation very clearly. over and over again they say if we could get rid of it at the same time we'll do it. we're starting to see cluster of phones moving to flip phones. so this is the amazing thing, almost everybody wants to change even the teenagers, they want to change, a review in the british reporter, asked her 18-year-old daughter would you have like a

smartphone ban until 18-year-old, she said, would it apply to everyone? yes. >> you know, i think the audience would like your thoughts on the following, there's a large contingent of people out there when this issue was raised, seemingly set aside parents, one-parent households in this nation, lot of two-parent households as well, both were fractured in 2008 during the economic collapse, both have collapsed. do you fear that parents are looked at as villains in this this whole debate about giving your kid a cell phone, allowing

your kid to play tiktok all day long on their phone when they don't have the time to step in. >> one of the major pushbacks i get when i say we actually need congress to do something, we need age gating, let's go back to the last century -- suppose congress said, you know the drinking age is 18 but we can't expect bars and restaurants and casinos enforce it, it's the parent's job to keep them out of bars, casinos and strip clubs. unless you lock your kid in a room, you can't keep them out of bars.

>> if you could make a policy recommendation based on the studies that have looked at the effects of technology on children and the maturing mind what would that cigarette label don't intake this age be? >> so, the one thing, i'm involved with debate with other psychologists, even the skeptics have found that pre-teen girls, the ages of 11 to 13, middle school, that's where kids are most vulnerable especially girls, we all agree on that, that's why i'm so focused on middle school, can we agree to get this nonsense out of middle school, let kids start puberty, focus on middle school, a common norm around the country, around the world, don't give a smartphone to a kid in middle

school. >> our oldest is in middle school, he has a dumb phone, he can call and text, that's it, we've been through this. are there signs of hope? leave us with some positive news. >> i can. the reforms that i'm talking about in the book are actually easy to do if we do them together. they cost nothing. they're completely bipartisan. bipartisan efforts to help parents out. easy to do if we act together. and the revolution, the parents revolution began last month in the uk, their kids use social media even more than ours do. they're fed up. they're going to say yes, they share your concerns, i think we

can turn this around quickly. >> you know who's on the front lines of this type of sort of checking on the kids and making sure that they are not using their phones up to a certain age, they don't allow their kids to have phones, it's people who make them. >> that's right. >> the people who make them know exactly the impact it has on the brain. the new book "the anxious generation, how the great rewiring of childhood is causing an epidemic of mental illness," this is an incredibly book, all parents, all people should read it, it goes on sale tomorrow. jonathan haidt, thank you very much for writing the book and thanks for coming on this morning. we appreciate it. >> thanks to all of you. still ahead, hours from now, donald trump is expected to show up for a hearing in his hush-money case after a delay in the trial.

plus, will the former president secure his $464 million bond today or will his assets be seized? also ahead, former supreme court justice stephen breyer will be our guest this morning. "morning joe" will be right back. back

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no one has seen a bond this size. every single person, hey, can i get $500 million bond. they were laughing. top executives of the largest securities companies haven't seen this. they're trying to put my father out of business, take out his resources, this is his new york state, this is what we're

seeing, letitia james campaigned on this promise, now they're making him do something that's not physically possible. bonds that size don't exist in this country. >> eric trump complaining yesterday on fox news about the massive bonds his father needs to pay in the civil fraud against him, not the only legal issue today for the former president. also ahead the latest on a potential deal between israel and hamas that would free hundreds of palestinian prisoners in exchange for dozens of hostages. we'll also go through the republican-led chaos in the house after a far-right lawmaker laid the groundwork for possibly removing speaker mike johnson. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it's monday, march 25th. with us we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire.

u.s. special correspondent for bbc news, katty kay. chuck rosenberg. and john meachem is with us this morning. a huge day legally for donald trump. he's expected to be in a new york courtroom this morning for a hearing on the hush-money case against him. the trial was supposed to start today, but it was delayed earlier this month after federal prosecutors turned over thousands of documents, which the manhattan district attorney's office said are largely irrelevant to the case. the judge's now expected to set a new start date for the criminal trial. meanwhile today is also the deadline for trump to put up a nearly half a billion dollars in the civil fraud case, prevent the new york attorney general from collecting on the judgment

while he appeals. trump's attorneys have asked an appellate court to reduce or wave the bond. the appeals court generally issues rulings on tuesdays and thursdays, so there's very little chance it will act today. >> so, chuck rosenberg, what should we be expecting this week? >> well, it could be very significant if the attorney general of the state of new york begins to move against his assets. let me add a note, just because a prosecutor can do something doesn't necessarily means should do something, trump has asked an appellate court to reduce the bond, it might be prudent in this case for the attorney general to wait and see what the appellate says before she starts

moving against the assets. again, prosecutors have a lot of authority and a lot of power but you don't always have to use it at its fullest in every case, every instant, gist because you can, so if i were the attorney general here i'd like to hear what the appellate court says, the amount of the bond and reduce it. you can always moves against the assets on tuesday or next week. >> jonathan, obviously this is a massive bond, and obviously makes a bad situation much worse for donald trump. but there was also, and man, i'm not exactly sure how his truth social deal is going to way it is, but it looks like a ponzi scheme to me but i don't understand it, this is though a

social media network that doesn't appear to be successful yet people are throwing around $50 billion year and $500 billion year does that provide donald trump an economic lifeline in the short term? >> nothing will materialize today. you're right about truth social, a website that no one uses, very little traction outside of the extreme maga right. i believe he's posted one thing since on on x. she's still driving to drive interest to -- >> where does this mass valuation come from?

in free and open free market, i mean, if you're just talking about economic considerations, who would invest in this company? >> i think you right there. someone trying to curry favor with the next president of the united states. we've seen a number of people do that as of late. truth social is not a success by any measure, rumors of money coming there that could really change trump's financial picture, not coming in the next few weeks, it wouldn't arrive in time to stave off this bond. this is a separate issue for trump. it could allow him to reset his financial footing and you know, there's also talk about what will happen today, trump to declaring bankruptcy, which of course is a tool he's used before, that won't get him out of paying this judgment, experts

say, it could delay things. it would be a black eye for a former businessman who touts himself as a man of corporate -- it could buy some time. this financial lifeline for truth social would emerge. >> i'm reading right now in the wall street journal editorial page, an editorial, it's not like the wall street journal is late to this game telling republicans that they really should govern except acting like a minority. jon, this op-ed, honey we shrunk the gop ma can-- majority. breaking that drive and rolling back power requires calculation

and often incremental gains. all the more so in a divided government. remind us of a comment that -- the current house gop is close to realizing this ambition republicans keep quitting. they want no part of this. the chaos continues. it gets worse. republicans themselves have said we've accomplished absolutely nothing this session and now they're talking about vacating the chair again, i just -- the incompetence, the political insanity is just, it's beyond. i can't imagine, the wall street journal editorial page agrees, voters and contributors aren't looking at this going, we didn't pay for this and we're not going

to vote for this, to support this for two more years. >> yeah, the distinction between a political party and the way we understand them as governing elements within a constitution structure and a cult, right, if you're going to -- if you want to be so pure in your loyalty to the whims and appetites to one person who tells you what to do and then you do it no matter what, versus a party that i think, let's go ahead and do it. body of men united for a kind of common purpose. what he meant was a governing purpose. and the governing purpose here is not this once noble party has

become a vehicle for the appetites for one person. moderate republicans who are just bailing, the great question as we've talked about forever now, at what point does the party itself begin to put interests of ideas and governing above the slavish following of one person. >> so, diving into that for the second time this year, house republicans have launched an effort to remove their elected leader, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene introduced a motion to vacate house of speaker mike johnson on friday. they have expressed anger at johnson ushered through the federal funding bill to avoid a partial government shutdown, there's no vote for johnson's ouster yet but the threat will hang over his head just as it did for kevin mccarthy and speaking of, former house

speaker mccarthy had this to say about the situation yesterday. >> speaker johnson is doing the very best job he can. the one advice i would give to conference and the speaker don't be fearful of a motion to vacate. focus on the country. focus on the job you're supposed to do. and actually do it fearlessly. just move forward. >> republicans move on. >> it's interesting, katty, that he would say that when he actually was actually courageous on january the 6th and folded. that seems to be the problem with a majority of people in this caucus, you know they passed up a chance to get signed into law the toughest border

bill ever, because donald trump told them not to, everything they do is jon meacham said, it's affected by this shadow that trump casts over the house and if you look at recent history this is a guy who cost republicans the white house, cost the republicans the senate, couple of years ago cost the republicans the house and it looks like he's going to do it again. >> monday morning lessons in political courage from kevin mccarthy is a good week of starting as -- that same op ed you read, joe, has another one. couple of paragraphs down, after we criticized that october coup as destructive and self-serving matt gaetz wrote a letter electing johnson had a real conservative as leader. because he's not willing to

indulge in kamikaze acts like shutting down the government johnson is a sellout. kamikaze is the point, chaos not governing, fighting, all those things that donald trump loves to do. donald trump said it's all about the fight. it's constantly about the fight. it doesn't really matter what the fight is about. and i think for matt gaetz and marjorie taylor greene it's about showing their supporters back home that they are fighters, governing that can come later on. the fight is important. that tone was set by donald trump. certainly the tone they've adopted. coming up, what we're learning this morning about the deadly terror attack at a concert hall in moscow, conflicting reports on who is

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u.s. officials say isis is responsible for a deadly terror attack in moscow, on friday night four men stormed a concert hall, killing at least 137 people with guns, knives and explosives. the suspected terrorists have since been arrested and charged along with seven others believed to be involved. in the amp math of the attack, isis claimed responsibility for the violence without providing any proof, but speaking to his country on saturday, russian president putin made no mention of isis whose afghanistan affiliate claimed responsibility for the assault and suggested that ukraine was behind the massacre. those accusations were quickly rejected by the u.s. national security council which noted the u.s., quote, shared information

with russia about a planned terrorist attack in moscow later this month. >> mark, i was just thinking over the weekend as i was reading about the aftermath, just absolute tragedy, horrific tragedy outside of moscow that the united states warned iran of a deadly isis attack couple months back, then the united states warned russia that this attack was coming, of course vladimir putin roundly criticized the united states for those warnings saying that we just trying to scare them, i'm so -- i'm so exhausted 60 years in, i'm so exhausted hearing people trying to paint the united states and russia and china and everybody else with

the same broad brush, the moral equivalency has been revolting for years. the united states and those in the west compared to dictators and tyrants. i only say that to say, would russia warn us? would iran warn us? if they knew there was about to be an explosion in times square, these are people who say death to america, these are people who consider us their sworn enemies, they're defined by their hatred of us yet the united states of america feels like they have a duty to warn and warn others that their people's lives may be in pearl, i don't find that extraordinary because i'm an american, that's what we do. i find it extraordinary that people still preach moral equivalency between the united

states and other, other tyrannical countries. because i doubt they'd do that for us. >> well, joe, you're right. because they wouldn't do that for us. i've been involved in some of these called, call one-way path of information, we have a duty to warn, that's a moral, ethical obligation to warn. it's the notion that when we collect information, which civilians may be harmed we're going to pass it not only to friends but to our bitter adversaries. we do it because it's ethical and moral. if you're in the counterterrorism world it's something we do. you're 100% right, joe. it doesn't mean that the russians would do that for us.

we pass that information we don't always action this. when we passed this information, russians didn't take it seriously. >> a real disconnect between vladimir putin, and his inability to protect his civilians from this kind of attack but protecting his own government from political opposition, i'm wondering, do you think he suffers any kind of backlash for that in russia? any other leader, you know, even benjamin netanyahu will face an investigation and will probably guys removal from office when it comes to attacks of october 7th, any blowback against vladimir putin for the fact that he failed to heed the warnings to protect his civilians but he

does such a good job of clamping down on political opposition? >> that's right, katty. they're solely focused on pushing down dissent, they're focused on keeping vladimir putin in power, this was yet another catastrophic intelligence failure. the question whether they'll face any sanctions i would think not, at the end of the day what you're seeing right now is this move, whether it's vladimir putin itself or russian propaganda to blame ukraine, the terrorists were moving towards the border of ukraine, the narrative that's being put forth there's no evidence. last point, you see some pretty barb remarks ic behavior by russian intelligence. russians take one of the terrorists, they actually cut his ear off and stuff it in his

mouth. the storyboard what they'll put forth and what occurred based on brutal interrogations i don't think we can believe what they say. and there's no western press in moscow. we'll never seen russians come and admit these kind of failures. they'll blame ukraine. >> certainly u.s. security officials feel there could be a rise of isis-style attacks in the west. reports of air raid sirens over kyiv and other cities in ukraine this morning. a deal might be close for israel to release a few hundred palestinian prisoners in exchange for some hostages there in gaza. israel has signed off on this deal which was pushed by u.s. in meetings in qatar a few days

ago, those talks have stopped, the offer remains on the table for hamas, hamas has yet to do so, what's your read here, we've been here so many times before, agreements on the doorstep and hamas keeps saying no, what's your take? >> so, jonathan, a really critical moment, we talked so much on this show about the humanitarian cata strophe that's occurring. a cease-fire would help this situation. the temperature goes down dramatically between the u.s. and israel because aid comes in and then the hostages come home and then the u.s. and israel can talk about this rafah operation, is a ways out, but still a point of contention, a key point on this for everyone to understand is that hamas is the one who is holding up this agreement,

israelis have moved quite a bit, they talked about relocating palestinians back to the north of gaza, issue of number of palestinian prisoners to be released. israel, because of u.s. pressure and the efforts of cia director bill burns, israel has moved forward on this. the question is, what will hamas say in return? i think the answer is expected in a couple of days. still ahead, an update on the men's and women's ncaa tournaments. plus, we may get more clarity on the strange story involving baseball's best player. "morning joe" will be back in a moment. e back in a moment so this is pickleball? it's basically tennis for babies, but for adults. it should be called wiffle tennis.

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the inbounder, looking to bounce. garcia. >> texas a&m with one of the big moments in the second round of this year's men's march madness tournament. unfortunately for the aggies though, that big shot to send the game into o.t. last night would be in vain as the houston cougars would prevail and advance to the sweet 16. let's bring in the host of pablo torres finds out. pablo torres. and mike lupica joins us. >> pablo, you know, i'm reminded every spring why i love college basketball so much, you know, i may not know all the players, as larry david once said, i can't

be held responsible for the names. like who's on drake? who's on gonzaga. but still there's this magic in seeing teams like yale be a giant killer, the a&m shot at the end, there has been so many surprises, oakland beating kentucky. but we can go down the list. i'm curious, though, in this crazy tournament, what's your biggest surprise so far? >> yeah, i was on this show talking to you guys last week, i see an iron bowl in the final four, i see auburn/alabama and joe, your crimson tide has survived. but auburn lost to yale. like that part, we need to say that aloud. see the ivy league, the surprise

though overall, beyond my bracket being destroyed is the fact a team like nc state, oakland you mentioned, oakland beats kentucky. nc state beat oakland. they have won seven teams in row. they beat duke, carolina and virginia. now they're on one of those runs. you get fooled into taking i'm going to take the whole sweep of the season in context, take the hot team nc state going as an 11 seed to the sweet 16. four acc teams. that to me is shocking and for me personally is humiliating. >> yeah, you know, mike lupica, again, just talking about march madness. i'm reminded by nc state getting

in only because they won the acc tournament, if i'm not mistaken that's how jim valvano's nc state team got in 1984. anything can happen in this tournament. what's your takeaway so far? >> well, nc state is the only cinderella team and they kind of invented cinderella by my late friend jim valvano was the coach. fortunately for the tournament a very choke event, 12 teams left one, two, three, four seeds. the big east has won six teams. the acc has won eight games. the seedings have really -- there's a curfew for the best

tournament. the curfew is the first weekend. now the better teams are still left. i love the nc state story. they would haven't made the ncaa tournament if they didn't win the acc tournament. >> yeah, a lot of shock, i say uconn number one team in the nation handled its first two games with ease this weekend. mike, for you and i as much as we love march madness, more importantly, opening day is on the horizon. red sox are on the west coast. not the biggest story right now in baseball. shohei ohtani involved in a very weird moment where his team's now accused his interpreter also his closest friend of stealing $4.5 million from ohtani in

order to pay off some gambling debts. that story has changed. initially reported that ohtani gave him the money, but none of it is great, what's your sense of this tale and a story that baseball can't afford? >> a whole thread to this story, first of all it's major, major peril for pay jar league baseball, major league baseball is alert every day all day in every clubhouse to gambling because of major league baseball's history with gambling. ohtani's interpreter could be the great impostor, made up entire parts of his background. the third part is major league baseball and every baseball fan should be praying that the greatest star that's appeared in the major league baseball stage over the last since babe ruth, ohtani did not bet on any games, that's the hope here, the other

aspect of that is, and pablo referenced this earlier talking off-camera, everyone would be stunned at the number of professional athletes who make millions of dollars per year who have no idea of what happens to large sums of money to them. >> the leagues, as the rise of sports betting throughout society, every league has embraced it, they don't want players anywhere near it. no one has accused ohtani. but he'll adress the media later today. >> well, you know. again, i say it all the time, as i tell my kids if something doesn't make any sense there's a reason it doesn't make any sense and it doesn't make any sense to think that an interpreter who's

been friends with ohtani would steal $4.5 million from him, nobody would notice it and that $4.5 million wouldn't go into a bank account or to purchase a home but immediately go to pay gambling debts. i'm sorry, pablo, but i'm afraid if they really dig deep here it looks like baseball's biggest star and guy who's inspired millions including my son, may be in the middle of a career-challenging gambling controversy. >> oh, it's a modern nightmare. mike alluded to it. gambling money is what's fueling so much of sports right now everywhere. the reason baseball is now of course reacting even with some sort of measured caution as to how they deal with reflects two things, number one the star

power of ohtani and number two the reality of gambling money is everywhere. baseball in this case isn't the accusation betting on baseball. if ohtani gets caught up in this, he got scammed by his best friend. this is man ohtani we don't know, we're learning all of this live and that's also terrifying to everybody. >> does it make any sense that he got scammed by his best friend or far more sense he had to pay off gambling debts of $4.5 million and his best friend did it for him? again, does the thing that concerns me is that whether it's the dodgers, major league baseball, the powers that be understands there's so much money in ohtani being successful they allow the interpreter be

the fall guy, does that story make any sense to you? >> no, joe, i don't know if we learn much from ohtani today. by the way, $500,000 wire transaction increments and overnight, ohtani's people were like casablanca they were shocked to discover gambling was going on, the feds are involved now. baseball can only do so much because they have no subpoena power. we know so little about this story. it's a mess. >> yeah, before we go, let's embarrass ourselves, which i do every day, and i'll start with you, pablo, who's going to win the ncaa?

>> i think it's mika's uconn huskies. they haven't trailed for a second so far. >> see. >> mike? >> he's smart. >> i thy uconn the first team since florida to win back-to-back titles. they blew out northwestern last night. >> jonathan? >> this is deeply boring but yeah, also uconn, i don't think there's a great team in the tournament but they're the best of this lot. >> yeah, i was before i asked i was going to say uconn, they have looked like, you know, they've been giants, i don't see anybody out there. mike, anyone out there who can keep up with uconn? >> no. i hope marquette could because they're a catholic college.

>> that's nice. >> uconn will be defeated last week and eliminated from the tournament. we just doomed them. >> i'm a huskie fan. always good to talk to you with guys. coming up, a new effort to oust house speaker johnson following friday's vote to keep the government funded. we'll go live to capitol hill for the very latest ahead on "morning joe. "

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although partisanship sometimes matters there are also shared principles, shared, that help maintain this remarkable democracy and make us one people under the rule of law. >> it's a kind of miracle when you sit there and see all those people in front of you, people that are so different in what they think and yet they've decided to help solve their major differences under law. and when the students get too cynical i say, go look at what happens in countries that don't

do that. people have come to accept this constitution and accept the importance of the rule of law. >> that was former u.s. supreme court justice stephen breyer, on the importance of the rule of law. justice breyer who was nominated to the court by president clinton in 1994 served on the bench for 28 years before stepping down in 2022. he's out now with a new book entitled reading the constitution, why i chose pragmatism not texalism and former justice stephen breyer joins us. >> justice breyer, thank you so much for being here. tell us why this book is so important at this moment in u.s. history. >> i think it's important because many americans are discussing the court, some approve it, many do not approve

it and they have reasons as to why. one they think it's politics. i don't think it is. i think it plays a very minor role. others think they just like to do that way or this way. 40 years on the bench, 28 on the supreme court, i've gotten more or less used to the basic job is to take words in a statute or the constitution, and decide how they apply in the case or what they mean. now i think the thing that has changed over the last decade over the last few years is a method of deciding that is becoming very popular and that's called textualism is very

attractive, just read the words and do what they say and this will be simple, clear and it will stop judges from deciding what they think is good instead of the law, all right, many believe that. i do not. there's another more traditional way of looking at those words and that is someone wrote them, what was their purpose? what are their consequences? how do they fit in the values that underlie this document the constitution of the united states? and will they last these interpretations to the point where they make the lives of people in the united states better? that's what i call pragmatism but it's much more complex than that. so i want to explain to people what i've seen not as a professor, not as a theory, most professors do know those

theories, but i've had some experiences they've not had, the experience i want to write from, i want to tell you about this case, that case and the other case, why that fits into a pattern and why i think rather than just blaming politics, lawyers and non-lawyers, people in the united states and others should wake up in my view to what's going on with what sounds awfully academic but it isn't. it will determine how those cases will come out and affect men and women in america. >> it's such an extraordinarily important book right now. especially as you said for people, for americans who look at court decisions, say, well, it's just political, you know, you can look at the makeup of any court, you know, i'm not

shocked by dobbs because of what clarence thomas and what kavanagh and what they've said throughout most of their lives and i think it brings up an important point, if we're going to have this debate and understand what really moves it, yes, sometimes politics enters into the hearts and minds of men, but this is a battle to win, isn't it, an intellectual battle that has to be won. >> it is. i think it's not that judges you name or other judges are just sitting there, oh, well, i have a different point of view, if we're interested in my opinion of running not running the certain dangers to the republic the founders set up, we don't want to run those risks and therefore i think the path which

not too many people outside the judiciary see, the path called contextualism is something that should be avoided. i read an opinion. i just read an opinion, 63 pages long, sent 30 pages each side. it was about the word "and" meant. yeah. and there are others like that. if you think they're simple, if you think the cases on the supreme court are simple, read them and see what they mean, i have a bridge in new york to sell you. >> justice, you're arguing for pragmatism in law and in reading of the law, on the court you were surrounded by a lot of justice were strong originalists, how did you balance your beliefs and their beliefs, and what's the right

balance? >> it's a very good question, because it's a question that justice scalia who was a good friend of mine, and i, would debate. we would debate it usually before students at lubbock, texas. we spoke about it. because he very much is a textualist. i would say to him, you know, life changes. values in the constitution they have to be adapted. i said, he's very intelligent, very funny and amusing game. i said george washington didn't know about the internet. and he said, i knew that. but the problem between your system, it's like the two campers, i said who are the two

campers? and he said, one sees the other putting on some running shoes, but there's a bear in the camp, a bear in the camp, you can't outrun a bear, yes, but i can outrun you. and that's what scalia says. stephen, you have a system and you draw on a system because this system has been around john marsh marshal, the founders. he said it's too complicated. you're the only one who can work it. i said, that's not so. if so you have a system that will produce a constitution and a set of laws that no one will want. >> justice breyer, as you know, this country is on the edge of something historic happening in the court, and a lot of people don't pay attention to the court every day, but people of

influence certainly do, an element of pace of pay, we had nixon and the watergate papers, we've had bush/gore, those decisions came down from the court fairly rapidly in terms of the court's usual pace, but now, the court seems to be slowing down things, slowing down things and slowing down things, is there any rational explanation for the amount of time being taken to make these decisions? >> well, i don't have that experience that you described. in the 28 years it's much more mechanical in the sense of taking cases or not. my experience is when a case is ready it comes there, why do we take a case? we take a case because normally different judges, lower court judges in different places have

come to different conclusions about the same question of federal law. i can give you an example of a federal question that could be, you want an example? >> yes. >> okay, i'll give a french example. because i read it in the french newspaper. i say look at this example, what? a biology professor is traveling to paris to meet his class with baskets, 20 live snails. the conductor comes up, what's in basket? do you have a ticket for the snails? i need a ticket for the snails? that's ridiculous. did you read the fare book? it says no animal on the train except in a basket if so half fare. that's cats, dog, certainly not

a snail. that's ridiculous. is a snail an animal? i put to the fifth grade class, what do you think, do they have to pay the fare and before you know it they're fighting with each other. i say, you understand the job of the appellate judge. it may not not be a snail, it might be bear arms. when mechanically the rules of procedure, when that case is before us and we decide to take it, they then start to write briefs. they're all called briefs. do you know why they're called briefs? >> because they're not.

>> the least brief thing. we have oral arguments. we discuss it. listen. that what senator kennedy told me and other staff members when i worked there in the senate, listen to what people who disagree with you say. when you listen and discuss you some time find agreement, some agreement, we can work with that. we'll work with that and try to come closer to an agreement or a compromise. we go out the chief assigns, we write an opinion. people can add concurrences or dissents. that's it. there's not any mucking around

with dates. >> so, it's four minutes past the top of the hour. we're into the fourth hour of morning joe and we're having a fasz nating conversation with former u.s. supreme court justice stephen breyer and katty has the next question. >> there should be some sort of perhaps open to the idea of for supreme court justices, do you think it would go any way to reversing the decline in the approval ratings of the court? >> i doubt it. i've been asked this question

many times and probably i was a judge for 28 years on the supreme court and the first time i got asked that question was after two years and the question is, would it make a difference for my life on the court? the answer is not much. my life would have been easier. many other countries i wouldn't have to make the decision. is the right time to decide? life is not perfect and it's tough. you do get older. do you like getting older? no. basically i don't like getting older. but there we are. so, you can't go on forever. you must give other people a chance.

these are tough decisions. and personal, too. you don't want a short time period for a supreme court justice, because you don't want that judge thinking of what's my next job? so, i've said that for quite a long time. as to the details, well, that would have to be worked out in depp. i can't be certain of my judgment on that. i'd like to know the details, too. >> the new book "reading the constitution, why i chose pragmatism, not textualism," supreme court justice stephen breyer, thank you. >> remember, it's this book that's supposed to tell you if

you choose to read it, this book is supposed to tell you why it's something that sounds boring, the philosophies, the theories, the approaches that are now at the point of making a big difference in americans' lives and we hope not for the worst and i fear it and therefore i spent the year and a half writing this book for people who are not lawyers and people who don't like lawyers, they'll be understand it. that's what i'm trying to do. >> we thank you for that. this morning, our top story could be the mark of the beginning of the end for donald trump's new york business empire, today is the deadline for trump to put up a bond of nearly half a billion dollars in the civil fraud case against him, it comes as the former president is expected to be in a new york courtroom shortly for a

hearing for the hush-money case. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has the latest. >> reporter: this morning, the former president is out of time. as soon as today, new york's attorney general may begin collecting more than $450 million from donald trump. the penalty for losing his civil trial for financial fraud. rejected by some 30 different insurers. mr. trump now forced to cover the massive fine on his own. as he appeals the ruling. >> no one has seen a bond this size, every single person, hey, can i get a $500 million bond, they were laughing. >> reporter: the judge originally fined $55 million, a figure that has continued to balloon. >> we have lot of cash and a

great company. they want to take it away. >> reporter: the former president's legal team asked the court to intervene, all of his assets, buildings, houses, even bank accounts are now potentially in play, a move the attorney general previewed last month. >> if he doesn't have funds to pay off the judgment, we'll pursue enforcement mechanisms in court. >> reporter: while mr. trump tries to fend off a personal financial crisis his criminal exposure hasn't faded. the presums gop nominee set to begin a trial in that case today, but it's been bogged down in delays, mr. trump back in court today as the judge mulls a trump team defense for even more time. >> let's bring in catherine,

what are the best options i guess if you were a donald trump attorney as it pertains to the bond at this point, are there any? >> there aren't any, if donald trump doesn't come up with the bond or the cash now, just friday i think he has $500 million so if he doesn't put up that 500 million toward it, the attorney general has started the process in westchester county, two big properties that trump has, she'll start putting liens on his properties, finding out where his bank accounts are, it's long process, a legal process, but just last week she's made it clear she's starting the process. >> an extraordinary day for the former president not just this deadline but a major hearing in his criminal case in new york

city, the hush-money case, what's your assessment, this document dump that the sdny dumped on the attorney general, do you think that's realistic? >> i think we will. just because the district attorney said don't worry about those documents they're not relevant doesn't make it true -- but the defendant in this case has to show that he was prejudice in some way, he can't really show that because the trial hasn't started. no witness has been called. if michael cohen was cross examined clearly he's prejudice, but even in that case the court wouldn't dismiss the indictment. the judge bottom line had to do this, had to delay the trial because under new york law once there's a late disclosure of documents the defendant has to

be given a reasonable time to review it. is 30 days reasonable? 45 or 90? we'll find out today from the judge. >> if trump fails to meet the deadline today on the bonding issue and the attorney jennifer -- if he meets the bonding issue on wednesday or thursday of this week, does her process as the attorney general process stop? >> if that happens, the court will decide, okay, i know the deadline was monday, now you met the bond and you paid the money, that will be the decision for the judge, he was actually given 30 days grace period, he had to give this over 30 days ago but the court the attorney general's office you know what you have until march 25th he was give an

month. also, out there is the appellate court in new york, they can still stay enforcement the judgment today. or reduce the bond he has to pay. that would have to happen today. >> donald trump supporters are calling the civil fraud case in particular a case where he's being targeted without precedent. organizations similar in scale to the trump organization have faced this kind of trial. >> this was in new york a massive trial and he's right there wasn't anything of this scale but in terms of, he said no one has given this amount of a bond the attorney general and she's been fact-checked has pointed to four other cases that a billion dollar bond was -- his

company is not the first company to face this massive amount of fine, so he's not being singled out and he's appealing the verdict, so the process will weighs itself out that way. >> thank you very much. we'll be watching both these cases play out today. before congress left washington on friday for a two-week recess, members narrowly avoided a government shutdown, passing $1.2 trillion spending bill, but that move might have come at a cost, as republicans are toying once again with the idea of getting rid of the speaker of the house. this all comes as their majority in the house continues to shrink. for the latest let's bring in ryan nobles, how do you expect this to play out and where does ukraine stand in all of this in terms of funding? >> they're all intertwined, no

doubt about that, what's fascinating about the situation that mike johnson finds himself in is that it's really a difficult choice because any move that he makes is going to draw the ire of someone on the other side of this, he's in middle of a very difficult situation and house republicans have made it clear they don't want mike johnson to work with democrats, the problem is, when you have one-seat majority is what the house republican caucus in the next couple of weeks, ken buck of colorado steps down and mike gallagher of wisconsin step down, a one-seat majority you have to work with democrats in order to get anything done, what this very small faction of conservative republicans are telling him, if you work with democrats especially when it comes to ukraine funding, we'll push to remove you from office. and mike johnson is in a situation where he doesn't have too many options.

when you talk to both republicans and democrats in the house there's an overwhelming sense that no one really wants to go through the drama of another speaker of the house being removed from office in the middle of a term. it doesn't really matter what a vast majority of members of congress think because it takes a couple of house conservatives to make a motion to vacate. many members still entertaining this idea, if ukraine funding comes to the floor here in the next couple of weeks they'll support marjorie taylor greene's effort to remove mike johnson from office. an interesting situation comes up, an unprecedented one, is that, will democrats step in and protect mike johnson's speakership, especially if johnson's willing to put ukraine funding on the floor. tom suozzi of new york said he's

willing to it. mike johnson is in a situation here, working with democrats he could be in trouble. but democrats may be his only salvation. >> certainly, ryan, democrats have had to help him pass legislation, certainly an odd coalition created there, marjorie taylor greene, her idea on friday, mixed signals whether there was a full-fledged effort to oust him or a shot across his bow, as this has played out, republicans you speak to, like, if this becomes a real thing, is johnson in trouble and if he is, who possibly would be speaker next? >> there's no one, johnathan, not a member of congress who could garner the type of support necessarily to hold on, especially with one seat majority.

matt gaetz, outright rejected the idea of removing johnson. that doesn't mean that there's going to three, four of them we still want to do this and i think that's where you see perhaps a small cadre of democrats who vote to table this motion. they don't want to go through this entire mess because it will be ugly. >> ryan, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. mike, we've been talking today about the wall street journal editorial on the chaos that's going on right now inside the house republican caucus. and let me just read from this, you can criticize ken buck and mike gallagher for leaving early but who can blame anyone sane for wanting to do something more useful with his life than

serving in this house of horribles. these republicans prefer to make opposition rather than vote to fund the government, the same members who undercut the majority says the wall street journal editorial page, they boast on the house floor and social media they're the only honest conservatives in washington. wall street journal calls them posers, they're posers. they're treating the voters at home like -- the posers of the house gops, the wall street journal editorial page concludes the posers of the house gop reminds us of a comment by former senator jim demint, 30 senators who agreed with him than a republican majority. congratulations to mr. demint. the current house gop is close to realizing this ambition and

mike, i have never seen anything like it, i know you've never seen anything like it, we've studied politics for a very long time, you have republicans leaving left and right, they're one republican leaving away from possibly turning the house chamber over to hakim jeffries and the democrats, so republicans there are voting with their feet, they say no thank you, no mas. >> yeah, joe, the sudden and abrupt resignation of mike gallagher really surprised me, not that it wasn't well planned but the immediacy of it, i'm retiring, i'm getting out of congress next week. and that was kind of a shock i think to a lot of people. one of the biggest things and you just alluded to it and the wall street journal is all over

it is the history of the house of representatives is much more than the history of the united states of america, it's the history of people who represent small districts compared to the senate, people who absolutely represent the american public district by district and the things that the house has passed over the course of the last 50, 60 years have changed the nature of this country. you served in the house 20 years ago now, that's the snap of a finger in terms of history. i remember the house when tip o'neil was speaker. during the watergate hearings. during the bulk of the vietnam war in the late '60s. the house was a place where they came to legislation late, to get something done for the people they represented in all 435 districts around the country. they were there to represent the people. the house of representatives now captured by a majority of

republicans and a minority of a republicans, the last thing they seem able to do is to perform the function of governing, of legislating, to help the people they represent, the people of this country, the people of their own district, small towns, big cities, that's gone and that's a sadness i don't know how much longer the country can cater to it, i don't know how much longer one particular party, the old republican party will go along with it but it's a disaster. >> well, you look at the wall street journal editorial page and i think they put it right. that put that voted to put this republican majority in in the house, people who wrote checks to help them, what did we get for our money? you talk about the house. yeah, the house is a place where

things got done. and you talk about tip o'neill, i loved chris matthews talking about the relationship between tip o'neill and ronald reagan. in the middle of the book, chris quoted tip's son who said, of his really good relationship with ronald reagan, working relationship with ronald reagan, he said, you know, my dad couldn't stand ronald reagan's governing philosophy, the oj thing he couldn't stand more than that was not getting things done for the american people. so he knew he had to meet reagan halfway, reagan knew the same, they had to work together to govern for the american people. i tell you, mika, that's what americans want. i know the trump extreme has

really twisted and contorted politics in america over the past eight years. >> yes, it has. >> but most americans, conservative, liberal, moderate, they want congress to work. this republican congress isn't doing it. >> no. they're losing them. speaking of resignations we'll get to breaking news, boeing, the president and ceo is stepping down along with a number of senior leaders that's a big story. also coming up on morning joe, our next guest said you can't understand november's election or america itself without reckoning with how our media attention has shattered into a bunch of misshapen pieces. jim vanderhei of axios joins us. you're watching "morning joe,"

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to the question, though do you disagree with trump saying he's going to free those who have been charged. >> i don't think people who committed violent acts on january 6th. >> so you disagree with that. why not speak out earlier? why speak out about that now. >> when you're the rnc chair you kind of take one for the mole team. now i get to be myself. >> wow. >> former rnc chairwoman ronna mack daniel. she was on sunday's "meet the press." first appearance since nbc news hired her as political analyst.

inundated with calls about nbc's decision to hire ron that mcdaniel. we learned about it on friday, we weren't asked for our opinion on the hiring, if we were several objected for several reasons, including but not limited to her role in donald trump's fake electors scheme and her pressuring of election officials to not certify election results. >> and what she said right there, kind of explains exactly what we're saying and why we feel the way we do, i mean, we are all for nbc news seeking out conservative republican voices, we need that for balance in all of our coverage including election coverage. but it should be a conservative republican, not a person who used her position of power to be an anti-democracy election denier. it goes without saying she won't

be a guest on morning joe in her capacity as a paid contributor and we do hope this decision will be reversed. >> let's bring in jim vanderhei to talk about his latest piece shardz of glass, inside media's 12 splintering realities. jim, perhaps this may be a bit relevant, but it's important to note that you're right, we have so many outlets out there, podcasts, social media often you know producing sound and fury that signifies nothing but it's not just "the new york times," the washington post, et cetera, you look at fox news who lost a great deal of their audience after the 2020 election for a fairly short while for simply

giving their viewers the election results, saying joe biden won, left newsmax and other conservative networks. it seems people on the right and the left will find their media outlets and it's caused this splintering as you said. >> yeah, no doubt. you think about it the shattering has been taking place for years when it's fully broken now. a good example is fox news, four years ago if you wanted to know what trump thought or most republicans who were going to vote thought you could go to fox news, the truth is, if you want to know what trump thinks or you'll probably go to steve bannon's podcast or charlie kirk, or follow the social media feed of donald trump jr. or go to truth social, places that

most people unless you're a real trumper you're never going to go, understand the rae alty of the prism from a couple of years ago. a very, very slim part of the republican party, kind of the mitt romney part of the party and more the conventional conservative. that's just in the political sphere. sitting at a table with a group of people and you might never really interact with their reality, somebody who gets most of their news from an influencer on instagram, kid to the right who's following people on tiktok that we would think are aliens and they're ingesting this content five, six hours a day. it's harder to understand for a lot of people what's real. >> so, jim, given every person

under the age of 25 that i speak to, gets their news from tiktok and that's going to continue, how do you see this playing out, is this splintering going to get more and more all of the mainstream media even kind of online websites going to disappear, going to be tiktok and instagram, where does it go from there? >> i think we don't know where it goes. because it's now broken. you've seen a lot of big media companies, traditional media companies go out of business, more probably will. people get their news on social media platforms but even there you see facebook and other places dialing back their interest in news people gravitate toward podcasts and other things. a.i. is going to hit us, fundamentally change our relationship with information, it will be curtailed to your individual interests, your passions, when you want it,

ultimately in the next couple of years i think that's where things are headed. in the short term it helps explain the confusion, man, everyone seems worked up in my world about this but is it actually a big deal. it's something that plays to someone's passion. >> certainly, jim, political campaigns are struggling with it. both aides to biden and trump they're still trying to sort out where to spend their money. highlight one or two more for us. these 12 splintering realities. someone watching this show might not be aware of. >> a big one, the musk tears, it's very much that tends to be meals, middle age, lot of them he tech world or at least interested in the tech world, they get most of their news from

joe rogan or they follow elon musk on x. if you view news through their lens, rfk is a much bigger deal, often interviewing him, in some ways funding him. that's why you see him 10% to 15% in the polls. you don't see that much coverage of him generally in the mainstream media. he might pick a vice presidential pick. very little about him. the other one, if you have parents, you know, probably still looking at facebook for news even though they downgraded it, lot of old people get a vast majority of their news scrolling through facebook. >> all right, co-founder and ceo

of axios, jim vanderhei. coming up, breaking news from the business world, after a series of high-profile accidents, boeing's ceo is set to step down. we'll discuss that and much more, next, on "morning joe."

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all right, breaking news. the president and ceo of boeing david calhoun and several other senior leaders are resigning. this after the company has come under scrutiny amid concerns over the safety of its planes, regulators began increasing calls for changes after a door plug blew out of an alaska airlines plane in january,

calhoun says he'll step down at the end of the year. he was appointed to the position back in 2019 after boeing ousted its previous chief executive for his handling of the aftermath of two deadly 737 max crashes. >> mike, what's happened to boeing? the fbi has actually reached out according to breaking news over the weekend, they've reached out to people on that alaska airlines flight they may be victims of a crime. you know, that's not the only incident, it seems one after another after another. there is such a quality control problem at boeing. it's stunning how bad it is. >> yeah, i don't know the answer to your initial question, joe, but i do know that david calhoun was one of jack welch's person of management.

he was ceo of a couple of different companies earlier, you know, before he took the boeing job. and he was noted for his management skills and clearly he was brought in by boeing to correct the mishaps that occurred at boeing over a period of time, he's been ceo of boeing for five, six years. this is a surprise. but it's not unexpected given what happened, i mean, boeing has had the plane crashes, they've had the doors blown off, they have multiple clearly personnel issues. it's another great american company that's not so great anymore. >> it is a mess. >> we'll be following that. also breaking her silence after weeks of speculation over her health, kate middleton, princess of wales announced she was diagnosed with cancer and is undergoing chemotherapy. >> in january, i underwent major

abdominal surge in london at time it was thought my condition was noncancerous, the surgery was successful, however tests after the operation found that cancer was present. i'm now in early stages of chemotherapy. >> katty kay, lot of speculation, people who went too far, even comedians now probably having an apology to make to the princess, it's arguable, she has a right to privacy especially to protect her kids, but it seemed like everyone was in an impossible situation in the palace. >> i munsing is that she wrote that herself. to kind of shed light on the

situation, the family now is not going to be seen, the children are home for their easter holiday for the next three weeks. e understand that prince william won't be seen until the kids go back to school. only camilla will be out and about. the king suffering from cancer. her statement has put to bed all the tabloids, all the speculation, i don't think you'll have people trying to dig in what's happening. global news organizations and paparazzi may be a different thing, but it's remarkable, the effect of this one video, this one short video that kate wrote herself how much it's changed the conversation around her treatment, you're right, has made a lot of people look at

themselves and say, oh, my god, do i go too far? >> "the new york times" had an article this weekend talking about how fleet street showed restraint, that it was actually tabloids in the united states, public figures in the united states that were really stirring up the rumors more than fleet street, which is quite a change. >> wrae, i mean, she's been the subject of bullying over the last few weeks and some of that the doctoring of that photograph, didn't help. they were trying to be transparent, clearly wasn't transparent. now, i think the family certainly hopes that even here in the united states people will respect her privacy and dial down some of the vitriol. it's the online stuff that gets so hateful. >> yeah. yes, so out of line.

coming up, a new documentary takes a look at the rise and fall of a drug rehabilitation program that later drew criticism for its cult-like behavior. award-winning filmmaker rory kennedy joins us to discuss her latest project. that's next on "morning joe." e. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. ♪ you were always so dedicated... ♪ we worked hard to build up the shop, save for college and our retirement. but we got there, thanks to our advisor and vanguard. now i see who all that hard work was for... it was always for you.

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like your workplace benefits and retirement savings. voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. it's a big, beautiful tragic story. >> the judge praise his degener. >> what happened, it was terrible, yeah. it was terrible. people suffered. people were hurt, and he did bring synanon down around him. but all of us in synanon, he

couldn't have done it without us enabling him. >> if you'll just back up -- >> a lot of really smart, talented, educated people. >> that was a look at the new hbo docu-series entitled "the synanon fix" which takes a look at the disturbing fall of an innovative california-based rehab facility. founded by chuck dederich in 1958, in just two decades synanon grew to be a multi-state, self-sustaining business. joining us now, academy award nominated and emmy winning filmmaker rory kennedy, also a ma dear row school graduate,

series director and executive producer. it's great to have you back on the show, rory. thanks for being on. tell us what drew you to do the series. >> well, it's a fascinating story honestly. it's one that is largely unknown about, as you say, this charismatic leader who started the first drug treatment program in the united states, residential treatment program for heroin addicts. 1958 there was really no options for heroin addicts. they either went to prison or went to an insane asylum or they died. chuck dederich started an initiative that was much like aa where they would have meetings, but you could confront people on their stories. drug users started coming in,

and they wanted to stay. he opened it up to this residential facility called synanon which was enormously innovative and very successful in the early years. >> sosynanon, when you hear the word, you flashback to 20, 30 years ago, you think this is a rhee coupive or rehabilitative place with a great reputation. what triggered it and why did it go on so long with people unfocused on what it had become? >> well, i think it's much like the story of the frog in the water, in the boiling water. it was a series of decisions that were made over many years where it became increasingly rigid, and there were numerous mandates. those mandates started as things that now today, many of us are

doing or trying to do, no sugar, exercising. and then those mandates started evolving to getting people's heads shaved, and to having forced abortions and vasectomies. it became more and more rigid. i think you have -- i think one of the reasons that i think it's timely today is because it really speaks to these charismatic leaders and how they take us in directions that we might not want to go. we're certainly seeing that in national politics today, where people are drawn to these kind of charismatic leaders and they tell us what to do. i think when society feels unsettled and you feel undergrounded, you're looking for alternatives, much like we're seeing today honestly. >> rory, you're in the middle of

this, too, given that your brother is making a presidential bid. do you feel that his charisma is what's drawing him to get such a fantastic response, frankly, for an independent candidate? >> well, bobby is enormously charismatic. he's very smart, and he offers a lot, but i do think -- my biggest concern about bobby right now who i love dearly is that, running as an independent candidate, that he's going to syphon votes from biden. and the polls i'm seeing show he takes 70% of the votes from biden and 30% from trump. i think this election is going to be -- is going to happen in a handful of states and the votes

are going to be very small in terms of what is going to elect the next president of the united states. so syphons votes out of biden i think could most definitely lead to trump's election. >> of course, rory, so much of your family has also disavowed his run for the presidency. let's turn back to the film. tell us a little more. as mike said, a lot of americans know on a superficial level. give us one or two things that surprised even you as you began to tell it. >> one of the things that fascinated me about this story, synanon was really founded on two pillars, one was no drugs and alcohol, and the other was no violence. by the end, synanon had bought more firearms than anybody in the history of california and they had an open bar in the facility.

looking at this trajectory and how it went from one extreme to the other over the course of 20 years from the perspective exclusively of the people who lived through synanon is i think fascinating and insightful about humans -- i talked about the charismatic leader, but i think the other thing that makes this series very timely is that people are struggling with loneliness as they did in the '50s, '60s and '70s, and they longed for community. this was a place that was communal. even though people lived through so much hardship and difficulty and challenges going through synanon, almost all of them don't regret having gone through it because of the friendships and the relationships. >> so many great points. the four-part docu-series "the synanon fix" premiers on hbo and

max april 1st with new episodes airing every monday. director and executive producer rory kennedy. a question for you, do you remember the madeira school motto and also the little mascot? >> i'm going to ask you to remind me of those were exactly. >> festina, and i don't know why, but it was a snail. it was a snail. >> really? >> i still don't get it. >> move slowly. >> i guess the motto explains the snail. rory, it's so good to see you. thank you very much. >> thank you very much for this work. that does it for us this morning. katy tur picks up the coverage in 90 seconds. 0 seconds.

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good to be with you. it is 10:00 a.m. here in new york. it's katy tur in for ana cabrera. we start with what's happening right now. donald trump just got to 100 center street. you see him right there. the new york criminal courthouse in downtown manhattan. inside he's facing manhattan