out of the meeting. so that really was a telling sign about the loss of confidence in the ceo from the airline customers. >> i wonder, tom, we don't have time, but should we watch out to see who he's replaced with and whether that person has an engineering background? >> absolutely. you're right on the money. >> thank you very much. that's going to do it for me today. deadline white house starts right now. white house starts right now. hi there, everyone. how we doing? it's 4:00 in new york. the ex-president's tried and true and all too often successful legal strategy of delay, delay finally met its match today in the form of judge merchon. he will go on trial april 15th.

the prosecutors with the manhattan d.a.'s office gathered in court on the very same day that the trial over concealing hush money payments to porn star stormy daniels was originally supposed to begin. but instead of what was supposed to be the first day of jury selection, team trump and the manhattan d.a. tangled over a sudden twist in the case that led to the trial being delayed. that last minute release of nearly 100,000 pages of evidence provided by the justice department in its investigation of witness michael cohen. at stake in today's hearing, whether trump would be able to delay accountability in this case as well as he hassaged to do in the federal documents case, but the judge did not buy what team trump was selling. the judge accusing trump's defense lawyers in bringing up the issue of delay in getting documents only to derail the

trial. the judge asking why the attorneys didn't mention the issue in february. the judge said this, quote, why didn't you bring any of this to my attention? why didn't you tell the court or anyone in the courtroom at the time that you had made this request? that it was taking you a little longer than expected. also, quote, brought up todd blanche's past experience -- st - throughout this hearing, the judge tore into trump's attorneys. "washington post" says merchan told blanche the latest dispute read quote, a pattern where i read certain information, and

then i hear your interpretation of that and it's different than mine. far from misconduct involving potential evidence, he said prosecutors were doing their best to be careful and thorough with their handling of the material. the manhattan d.a. quote went so far what they were required to do, it is really odd we're here. after a break, the judge then ordered that the trial will begin on april 15th. a new york judge ordering the first ever criminal trial of an ex-president that will now go full speed ahead. it's where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former deputy assistant attorney general harry lipman is with us. lisa rubin, she was inside the courtroom for us today. plus, "new york times" reporter, suzanne craig is here. and former republican congressman and nbc political analyst, david jolly is here for

the hour. lisa, take us through what became pretty dramatic. >> it was. and one of the things that really struck me today is tom blanche is a person known for his cleej yalty, a person that's easy to get along with. it was one of his hallmarks of his tenure. increasingly he's been forced into postures that are add odds with what i think he has done best in his career as a lawyer, which is get along with folks and try to find common ground because what he did today according to the judge was uncalled for. accused the d.a.'s office of prosecutorial misconduct. blatant discovery violations and as he put it at one point,

trying to make the judge complicit in those accusations by saying hey, the d.a.'s office is not complying with their good faith obligations here and you're going along with it. while he did eventually extract a 30-day adjournment out of it and got no further, in the process of that, squandered so much credibility with the court before jury selection has began that while this is part of trump's m.o., delay, stall, and ignore, he really didn't get much out of it other than really angering the judge who will preside over his first ever criminal trial. >> and steve, just remind everyone what this is about. this is about sdny's documents or documents about michael cohen. >> right. and they had a case that was going and they ultimately didn't go forward and there was documents that were not turned over. and so late in the game, they ended up in recent weeks turned them over and this caused what

happened today. >> what do you make of where we stand right now? on the, it makes it trivial to talk about them like a fantasy basketball bracket, but given all of the alleged criminality on trump's part. this is the one which there are signed copies of checks signed by trump. there are recipients of the money who don't doubt the alleged relationships or relations of that. there's an election we all know happened. so the facts are so well established. not just by witness testimony, but by documents. what do you expect as this gets underway? >> it's still in question whether the other ones will. people have called it the weakest case. i don't know if that's true, but it's a very unusual case. at the same time, i think it is fairly cinematic and i think

could be strong to sell through a jury. you have a payment to a porn star and in final weeks of an election in order to influence the outcome. to silence her. and other evidence will be brought in about other payments that were made. the access hollywood tape can't be played but the tape will be, you know, the transcript will be read in. it's going to be very dramatic and i think this is something that a jury will be easily understood versus the last trial. the last trial that i sat through involving donald trump was pretty complicated. that was the criminal trial for tax fraud. this one is not. i understand there's no issues with it. in terms of getting kicked up to a fraud and all that. but i think a jury will understand. >> you know, the idea that a jury's going to have to process these pieces of information. i've heard it disparaged privately and publicly is the least. i think it's the most obvious perhaps with the exception of e.

jean. it is, the facts again, are not in dispute. there are checks signed by trump win in the oval office. there's a real life porn star who i think is a witness in this. and there's a guy who went to jail who didn't have any sex with the porn star. the facts are so clear. >> took money from a home equity line of credit to pay her -- right. went to jail. and what's alleged here is the crime. i think people mostly forget is what happened afterwards. it's the way in which they tried to paper over the alleged campaign finance violation. alvin bragg doesn't have to prove there was any violation with respect to campaign finance. he has to show there was a falsification of business records in an attempt to commit or conceal another crime and that's the crime for which michael cohen went to jail and we could all discuss whether other people should have been in prisoned as well including but not limited to donald trump. but that's really the crime here. it's not the payoff of the porn

star. it's the cover up of the payoff of the porn star in order to make sure that the american people didn't know that he paid stormy daniels and for what purpose and what timing. it was a time frame where you and i have discussed, the campaign was in meltdown. there was a catastrophe going on. they understood they were in big trouble with white women voters and they were trying to minimize that damage and lo and behold, stormy daniels manifests and she wants her money and they make it happen. more importantly, michael cohen makes it happen with trump's say so. to your other point, this isn't just a testimony in documents case. this might also be an audio tape case. we forget about the fact there is audio taped evidence that the boss understood what the payment was being made for. you can expect that tape likely will resurface at this trial. >> i just think that we talk about the pressure they were under.

it's that access hollywood tape. i mean, if this wasn't a trial, it should be a movie. but that tape was bearing down on the campaign and that's not going to be played in court. i don't think you need to because that was the shot heard around the world. and everybody, they're going to be read the transcript in the courtroom, the jurors. that was the stress they were under. it is very cinematic when you think about it. >> and that political, to the degree that there's a political part of what may or may not be presented to the jury, that tape is what made reince priebus say this is it, we're out. we've got to flip the ticket and put pence at the top. that tape is what created a political calamity where i think that was a first time only rudy giuliani went on the sunday shows. reince priebus refused to do it. i don't think jared was a spokesperson yet, but no one from the family would go out. that did create a cataclysmic

political moment. >> the tape recorded donald trump laughing and bragging about sexual assault. and as much as republicans tried to dance around that moment, it's sexual assault what he was describing. so the campaign started to fall apart as lisa and sue have pointed out. so what did donald trump reach for to remedy his problem? fraud. fraud. what i think is fascinating about this case in particular is it's the intersection of donald trump the business person and donald trump the candidate. and this narrative of fraud is kind of a thread through all of his cases including january 6th where he's charged with conspiracy to defraud the american people of their own democracy. we learned through tish james about fraud. the underlying narrative is why did he engage in that? as donald trump the candidate, he had to reach for fraud to save his own campaign.

that's a powerful reminder during a year in which he's running for the white house again that this is who he is. and the voters aren't going to miss that. >> i also think there's this really calcified conventional wisdom that the legal tremendous vails are good for him politically. i don't buy that on these new york cases and i think that donald trump telegraphs where he plays ode to the domestic terrorists who were at january 6th. he's not holding up any of the facts of this case as part of his 2024 campaign. these cut right to his id and drive him nuts. >> as we've discussed, this election is going to be decided by a small number of voters. and to the best of our ability to identify these voters, many of them are, we say suburban white women, but that's, you know, that bleeds into a lot of other adjacent demographics. but the reality is it's a large demographic that's offended by donald trump and they are going to be reminded why they're

offended by donald trump and why if donald trump was the teacher in their kid's second grade class, they'd remove the kid from class. >> harry, take me to law school. tell me how you assess his legal exposure today as we sit here on the precipice of this first criminal trial. >> worse today than yesterday. the story is the right story and merchan has made a series of rulings that are going to permit the d.a. to tell that story starting with access hollywood and even ending with the 2020 election as part and parcel of an overall fraud just as you've said. and what is trump going to do in response? the one thing he tries to do, he's got a one-page playbook that merchan basically shredded

today. he tried to be a good show person for his client sitting there, but to take a pedestrian set of occurrences and make it seem sinister on the d.a.'s part and merchan shut him down so far. he was going to make this a two-day hearing at first. he was intrigued by the notion there was a hole there there and he wasn't and he was peeved by it. so he pretty much not only did blanche have to give up a lot of his credibility, but he had to surrender a big part of his play book. what left? he may say oh, i did this for melania. basically, the d.a.'s ability to tell the story that is more compelling and more important as a country and more alienating to the population as a whole really

was enhanced today. >> let me ask you to sort of widen the lens, harry. the last filing from d.a. bragg, let me read from that. he wrote this on march 8th, the defendant filing a motion alleging a grab bag of arguments in the latest of a long series of attempts to evade responsibility for the conduct charged in the indictment. the defendant has taken ever possible step to evade accountability in this case for more than a year. he sought the deter the grand jury from considering the charges by promising quote death and destruction if he were indict. he sought to intimidate the district attorney. if corruption is sort of running through the vein of this, threats and intimidation and what bragg calls meritless grab bag is the subplot. >> exactly. and merchan contrasts this with

cannon. the same arguments are made and she entertains them. he really was very decisive in basically rejecting all of them and that's the whole thrust of what trump is going to want to say and now more importantly or as importantly, there's a jury here and trump, if he goes out and does his, the other page of his playbook of vilifying the d.a. as he did and the judge, that now immediately engages merchan's responsibility to protect the jury pool and the 12 people there. i think they'll find a gag order and he's the guy to reenforce it with everything that needs be. so that part of his sort of public campaign i think is always going to be considerably shutdown and just the dynamic of having to play nice as best as donald trump can play nice now that he's in front of 12 people

who really have his fate in their hands is, i think, also a dynamic game changer. >> yeah. trump is real steely when his fate is out of his control. i can't wait to watch that. harry, you teed this up. i'm going give everybody a couple of minutes to think on it because we have to sneak in a break, but this idea of what judge presides over a legal issue seemed to come into sharp focus today. i want to put you on the spot with that. no one's going anywhere. we'll have much more on this eve of the now scheduled criminal trial of ex-president trump. the deadline to pay the bond in the new york civil fraud judgment has been pushed back for the ex-president by more than a week as he continues to fight against the nearly half a billion dollar penalty a judge has found he must still pay. plus, something closer to home. public objections to the hiring by nbc news of former rnc

chairman mcdaniel continue to grow. i will add my voice to that conversation. we'll talk about what it means for democracy when companies especially those in the business of news add self-described election deniers to their payrolls. all that and more when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. inues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. all parts working in sync to move your business forward. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business. and how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. usps ground advantage. ♪♪ when you're a small business owner, your to-do list can be...a lot. ♪♪

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okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪) made false statements on new york business records. he also caused others to make false statements. the defendant claimed that he was paying michael cohen for legal services performed in

2017. this simply was not true. and it was a false statement the defendant made month after month in 2017. april, may, june, and so on through the rest of the year. for nine straight months, the defendant held documents in his hand containing this key lot. why did donald trump repeatedly make these false statements? the evidence will show he did so to cover up crimes relating to the 2016 election. at its core, this case today is one with allegations like so many of our white collar cases. allegations that someone lied again and again to protect their interests and evade the laws to which we are all held accountable. >> i mean, sue, i have read you've written about the

business records, about the falsification of business records. about all the people, weisselberg goes to rikers over this. i'm just struck by the way alvin bragg says we do this all the time. this is the bread and butter of white collar prosecutions. trump did it from the oval office. >> i think we've -- >> is that what we're calling it? >> i think judge after judge and you're seeing this to one degree or another. i don't want to say all are cut equally here, but you're seeing them want to give due process and want to go through it because they don't want to be accused of not giving donald trump you know, a fair shake, and it has led to all of these delays and in one form or another, some are much larger than others. it was refreshing to see the judge. he saw through this and is now

marching towards jury selection. >> if you think about what trump is accused of doing, it's not, it really, you know, i get so, i feel like there's this temptation to lump all the alleged conduct together. this is to different. this is the big lie about who he is, who he was. and the notion that he lied about his wealth. his sex life. that he lied about his vulnerabilities going into the 2016 election get to the very heart of whether people would have made the same choice if they had known this information. >> which is why bragg categorized as the election interference case. in some respects, it is novel. yes, it is the bread and butter of the d.a.'s office. yes, there's a statute that allows you to go after people for falsifying business records in aid of a felony and the one they chose here is somewhat usual. but i guess what i would pause back at people is did you ever

think that someone who was sexually assaulted by a former president almost 30 years ago would see for defamation? isn't that in and of itself novel as well? the vehicle by which e. jean carroll gets her measure of justice is not through the criminal justice system, which is where many victims get their justice, but by suing him for defamation because to your point, it is a lie at the core of who this person was and is. the cases we're dealing with now in new york are principally about who donald trump was before he was president. the cases that are yet to come are about the type of person he transformed into having been that person all along as the president of the united states. >> i was going to say elephant in the room, but that's the next block. the other elephant in the room. now i've only got mcdaniel's name in my brain. there's a scene in lego batman

where the joker is sailing away and he says you're nothing without me. this whole symbiotic relationship started with love has ended up with deep, deep hatred between michael cohen and trump. is again just another thread, another subplot, but clearly, clearly, michael cohen triggers the you know what out of donald trump. >> no doubt about it and his cross-examination is going to be the dramatic center piece of the trial and remember, he's an adjudicated perjurer and they'll try to say 26 times until merchan stops them. but look, trump does all these things. at the time, it was a new pattern for us. we didn't know. maybe that's why he was able to skate by and get to the presidency, but he also signs the check to michael cohen. remember him on the plane saying whatever michael cohen says, he's my lawyer.

michael cohen has a real sort of credible basis at least to testify from, but the particulars are going to be very strongly contested. that's really the most that they can try to do short of trump testifying, which is i say i think is unlikely. so there are papers. there are things that you can point to. it's not just a michael cohen case. but he's really important and they are preparing him at length over days and days and days for what will be for sure a bruising cross-examination. >> what's interesting about michael cohen is that everything about him that they will throw at him as an attack is what michael cohen did in service of donald trump. >> yeah. that's right. >> it was a lie that michael cohen says he was instructed to tell and a jury will have to decide and sort that out on the credibility side. but everything they're going to attack him with is something that michael cohen went and served prison time for and

again, didn't have the alleged sex. >> he was doing it for the boss man is basically what he will say. i think where he provides is such a dangerous witness against, dangerous testimony against donald trump is there's nothing more you can take from michael cohen. >> correct. >> he's that person who has had everything taken from him. so there's not a charge he hasn't been hit with. there's not a credibility hit he hasn't absorbed and so i think there's an opportunity probably for the jury to see him as just being raw and honest and this is what i'm here to tell you. i think the interesting dynamic where this case will capture the imagination of the american people around the facts of stormy daniels and business fraud, but we will likely now see as a result of this case, either an acquittal or conviction of donald trump before the election. that is the one dynamic we have not seen politically. everything else seems to be baked in, but we have not seen the american reaction to an acquittal or conviction and what

does that look like? and should there be a conviction? this tees up for the american people that fundamental question for november. of donald trump is running for his own absolution. the remarkable thing is there's not much he can do about it in this matter but that is what will be framed in the american peoples' mind. >> the only information we have is from some of trump's republican primary opposition, but some of the polling in the primary showed that the conviction changed the landscape. the timing for reasons we discuss all the time will be that this is the only one he can have, but there is polling evidence that it has a pretty politically disastrous impact. >> that's right. it's actually a very complicated and layered question for the american people to consider. say this is a conviction. does donald trump have to report to prison? obviously there would be an appeal and all this stuff. the likelihood is this question of what happens if donald trump's elected having been convicted?

reporting to prison might get delayed until after the term. maybe not. i don't know. so where does the rational mind of a voter then come in in the case of a convicted donald trump? all bets are off. >> this one is very difficult to pin on the deep state. again. michael cohen. harry, lisa, thank you both so much for starting us off. sue's going to be back later. you can check out, but you can never leave. david's not going anywhere. up next, making waves over a decision to hire a controversial political voice. the former chairwoman of the rnc peddling lies about the 2020 election, we're going to talk what about that decision says when we come back. talk what about that decision says when we come back.

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don't have to tell you this, dire. this show has dedicated itself to a jarring pursuit of the uncomfortable truth about our politics and our political leaders and our justice system and yes, the media. today, this network is part of that story. on friday, nbc news announced it had hired ronna mcdaniel as a paid contributor. by saturday night, it was reported that ra shee da jones separated the decision that mcdaniel would not appear on our air.

by sunday morning following her appearance on "meet the press," my colleague, chuck todd, went full -- >> is she speaking on herself or who's paying her? once at the rnc, she said hey, i'm speaking for the party. i get that. past part of the job. so what about here? when nbc made the decision to give her nbc news' credibility, you've got to ask yourself what does she bring nbc news. i've been at this company a long time, you're doing it for access. to audience. sometimes it's access to an individual. and we can have a journalistic ethics debate about that. i, i'm willing to have that debate. so i do think unfortunately this interview is always going to be looked at through the prism of who is she speaking for. >> joe scarborough and mika also

weighed in. >> we weren't asked or opinion but we would have objected for several reasons including but not limited to, miss mcdaniel's role in donald trump's fake elector scheme and her pressuring election officials to not certify election results while donald trump was on the phone. >> to be clear, we believe nbc news should seek out conservative republican voices to provide balance in their election coverage, but it should be conservative republicans. not a person who used her position of power to be an anti democracy election denier. >> for our part here, we're going to cover this story as part of our ongoing series of conversations about american autocracy, asking the question or pausing the theory that it could happen here. i'm going to read you an excerpt from on tyranny.

quote, most of the power of authoritarianism is freely given. individuals think ahead of what a moral repressive government will want and then offer themselves without being asked. a citizen who adapts in this way is teaching power what it can do, end quote. in this instance, nbc news is either wittingly or unwittingly teaching election deniers that what they can do stretches way beyond our air, which mcdaniels did yesterday on "meet the press." >> can you say as you sit here today, did joe biden win the election fair and square? >> he won. he's the legitimate president. fair and square, he won. it's certified, it's done. >> ronna why has it taken you until now to be able to say that? >> i'm going to push back a little because i think it's fair to say there were problems in 2020. and to sa that does not mean

he's not the president. >> there were no problems. but what, what we have also said to election deniers is not just they can do that an our air waves, but as one of us. as badge carrying employees of nbc news. as paid contributors to our sacred air waves. joining us now, yale university history professor, author of the book on tyranny, 20 lessons for the 20th century. one of my colleagues sent me a screen shot of that first page and it gave me chills and i thought if i have an opportunity, i have to say nobody at this company stopped me from having this conversation with you and i'm grateful for that. this was the part of the story that i found most haunting. that what you write is that authoritarianism doesn't come in and take things, but what they do is learn and operate in the spaces they're given and i wondered through that lens how you see this development and

what warnings you have for the media. >> what nbc has done is they've invited into what should be a normal framework, someone who doesn't believe that that framework should exist at all. what nbc has done of its own volition is bring into the conversation about democracy, ronna mcdaniel, who tried to disassemble our democracy. who personally took part in an attempt to undo the american system. and so bringing that in without questioning it is obeying, because what nbc is doing is saying well, could be that in '24, our entire system will break down. could be we'll have an authoritarian leader, oh, but look, we've made this adjustment in advance because we've brought in somebody who's tried to take

our system down. so yeah, i think this is pretty bad. >> what is the red line? i mean, i have to just say, the other elephant in the room is that i myself have benefitted from this network's willingness to add republicans into the family but it seems mike pence wouldn't be on the other side of that line. liz cheney and adam kensinger. the reading is about what good actors do. a good faith actor putting into the conversation someone that changes the window, actually advances authoritarianist clause. >> as far as what lines one could draw, in my mind, it didn't have to do with what party you belong to although you might say what mcdaniel did was

help transform the republican party into a personality cult. that's another issue. the lines for me would be things like if you are going to be on american media, you should be somebody who believes that there is something called truth. things called facts and you can pursue them. you shouldn't have been someone who has pushed the idea of fake news, pushed americans away from belief from the facts. a second red line would be something like this. if we're going to be putting people on the news who have participated in an attempt to overthrow the system, we have to ask why did you do that. and we have to ask yourselves why are we bringing these people in. you should be somebody who's at least trying for the facts and you shouldn't be somebody who has taken part in an attempt to undo the system. which is what we're talking about here. when she was, what she took part from december of 2020 at the latest in attempt to change the

american system by knowingly bringing in, by knowingly bringing in these false electoral slates, that's really something like extraordinary. >> timothy, what should people do who want to end up on the right side of these questions about making sure we're not willingly handing over our air waves or power. >> take a deep breath and think about the overall structure of the system. it's not just a matter of opinions. it's a matter of structures and two basic structures are one, belief in factuality. at the end of the day, there won't be an nbc or msnbc. there won't be media in the sense we believe in them. an alarm bell should ring if people have said fake news fake news over and over again. people should make a distinction about again, it's not about

democrats or republicans or progressives or liberals. it's about people who sincerely believe that we have a constitution which allows us, which gives us a framework for discussion, a framework for this section of power or are we talking about people who really believe that this system isdone for, that we should have one person rule and it's fine so long as you have that one person to put him in power against the rules and let him sit there. there's a different category of person and we know because we have the experience of january 2021 who is on what side. we've had a trial run. we know who's on what side of the line. we can't pretend we don't have that knowledge. >> tim, can you say something about appeasement? because so much of the sub text of this is seeking to appease an opposing view. there's this notion that if you appear on opinion television, you'll anger the trump side then maybe you can't work in the white house. there's this instinct to treat

him normal and sort of appease the other political side. but your point is that's the wrong frame to have around our thinking. >> yeah. normalizing is beyond your power. you're not going to have access to the white house in a normal sense because there won't be a white house in the normal sense. if trump is in office, we're dealing with somebody and we have every reason to believe he's going to persecute his political opponents, the people he regards at espousing fake news. so this is not a normal political situation where you give a little and get a little. you can give as much you want to trump between now and november but you're not going to get anything back in january 21. the perverse thing is if you practice giving things to trump over the next seven months, all you have done is gotten better at appeasing him after january of '25 should he win. so this is like a trial run for nbc and everyone else to say okay, we're going to practice

appeasing ta dictator and then when it comes, we'll be better at it. >> it's a scary thing to cover your own place of employment. the page is seared into my brain. to get to talk to you about it is a privilege. >> i appreciate your doing this. thank you so much. when we come back, we're going to talk a little bit more about this. good friend of the program, good friend of mine. david jolly. stay with us. mine david jolly. stay with us ♪ limu emu ♪ ♪ and doug ♪ hello, ghostbusters. it's doug... ... of doug and limu. we help people customize and

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i'm grateful for that. these conversations are hard to have, but i think if you don't have them, what are we doing here. >> that's right and the viewers deserve the conversation because they want a seat at the table and they want to be heard. in many ways, this is a conversation about the role of media, about decisions of news enterprises. but the viewers of this platform in particular for at least eight years have found a home here for conversations around protecting democracy. what they saw in the hiring of ronna mcdaniel is a decision of the board and a liar. she lied to the american people in advancement of american democracy, to further the autocratic movement that is trumpism. i think those two elements are why the viewers have grown so concerned. you cannot platform a lie and give it the credibility merely of a competing opinion. to do so abandons critical

thinking. we have seen media outlets abandoning critical thinking. viewers don't want that to happen here. the lie was this advancement of stealing the franchise of voters and viewers, advancing autocracy. in a free democracy where the media plays a role in protecting one's franchise, to bring on a voice that suggests no, none of what you saw saw was true, there's this counternarrative over here jam packed with lies but i'm going to ask you to give me respect for that opinion, that's why the viewers feel betrayed. they feel betrayed. and they're asking to be heard. >> the other thing i think we have to really hold a mirror up to is there's this reputation that msnbc is somehow, you know, different, maybe less than,

because we platform opinion. i will tell you over the last 48 hours it has been the opinion anchors most upset about the liar -- and i won't say most because i think chuck todd made clear that he went first. he did something really brave. i talked to him yesterday. i said i'm knitting you a cape. so let me take back the word most. but it's not about the ideological spectrum. it's not who you vote for. it's do you start at a shared set of facts. ? shared set of facts. which speaks to the line and shared set of values, which is the advancement of democracy in the united states for all people. and as you and i have discussed it's a little intriguing because we each have participated in a party that ultimately produced donald trump but where i would suggest this is radically different, not asking for forgiveness for my own sins as a republican but it is important. you participated in the mccain camp to push back and try to stop the tea party emergence that ultimately led to donald

trump. michael steele participated in the autopsy that tried to create a bigger tent republican party to speak to more people. as a member of congress i opposed donald trump, denounced him. i cited with democrats on marriage and guns and a lot of other issues. we understood this journey is not always a fight against each other but it is a fight for the future of the country. ronna mcdaniel sees this as a fight against each other. and that is a zero sum game where republicans must win. that's reason to question her voice in this conversation. >> i have one more question for you. i have to sneak in a quick break first. don't go anywhere today. ak first. don't go anywhere today. and retirement savings. voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected. every day, more dog people, and more vets are deciding it's time for a fresh approach to pet food. they're quitting the kibble. and kicking the cans. and feeding their dogs dog food that's actually well, food.

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to help save lives today. as we do often, i want to read you liz cheney's reaction to all of this. liz cheney tweeted this. "ronna facilitated up from's corrupt fake elector plot and his effort to pressure michigan officials not to certify the legitimate election outcome. she spread his lies and called january 6th, quote, legitimate political discourse. that's not taking one for the team. it is enabling criminality and depravity. >> the big lie was the predicate for january 6, which led to hundreds of arrests by the department of justice and ultimately now a pending trial of the former president of the united states. that is a result of the work not just of donald trump but of the former republican national committee chairperson, ronna mcdaniel. there is a reason that liz cheney, who saw all of this up front and saw the damage that was done to the nation at the hands of trump and mcdaniel,

today is angry. and i think she's as angry as many viewers who are watching right now. >> thank you for being here on this day. thank you for coming and staying for this conversation. you actually are coming back in the next hour for more politics. coming up for us at the top of the next hour you may have gotten a last-minute reprieve but the clock still tick tick ticks away for the ex-president. it's just a few days before he has to cough up nearly 200 million bucks. the story's next. p nearly 200 million bucks. the story's next

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financial frauds are not victimless crimes. he engaged in this massive amount of fraud, and it wasn't just a simple mistake, a slight oversight. the variations were wildly exaggerated. and the extent of the fraud was staggering. if he does not have funds to pay off the judgment, then we will seek, you know, judgment enforcement mechanisms in court. and we will ask the judge to seize his assets.

>> that's one thing we know he understands, it's that last three words, seize his assets. yikes. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. today marked the deadline for the twice impeached, four times indicted ex-president to come up with his more than $450 million bond in the new york civil fraud trial, where judge engoron found he and his businesses liable for fraud. it was a number trump already said he couldn't pay. there seemed to be a very likely possibility assets like trump tower and 40 wall street could soon be seized. but today, right under the deadline, a panel of new york state appellate division judges swooped in, lowering trump's bond requirement to $175 million and giving him an additional ten days to post it. handing for the moment a sizable reprieve to the ex-president. now, whether he follows through on his word that he will pay it we'll see. the amount has been reduced and the former president has until april 4th now to pay it. the clock is ticking

nonetheless. new york attorney general letitia james was out with this statement shortly after the appeals court lowered the bond. "donald trump is still facing accountability for his staggering fraud. the court has already found that he engaged in years of fraud to falsely inflate his net worth and unjustly enrich himself, his family and his organization. the $464 million judgment plus interest against trump and the other defendants still stands." the judgment still stands. one trump has said he will appeal. in the ruling today the appeals court judges noted that trump's legal team has to get its case in order for the court's september 2024 term, meaning his appeal argument will be heard this fall. but that doesn't mean he's on the hook until the fall. today's ruling came down while the ex-president was in a new york courtroom for that other case, the criminal hush money case brought by manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. jury selection for that trial begins on april 15th.

all this adding up to a presumptive gop presidential nominee deeply mired in legal woes and still owing millions and millions, millions of dollars. it's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. former top official at the department of justice and msnbc legal analyst our friend andrew weissmann is here. plus senior opinion writer and columnist for the "boston globe" and msnbc political analyst kim atkins stohr is here. and back with me at the table "new york times" investigative reporter sue craig is here. andrew weissman, i start with you. take me through the state of being donald trump. >> well, he had some temporary good news, and he had some bad news today. sort of an amazing confluence of things. so as you noted, the amount of the bond he has to put up is only 175 million. it's hard to sort of get those

words out. but certainly that is less than 450 million. that does not mean that he ultimately may not have to pay 450 million. that issue of whether the judgment in full will be affirmed on appeal is one that's going to be decided quickly. i would note that two provisions that the court of appeals, the appellate court said are going to stay in place is having a compliance monitor and this independent monitor overseeing donald trump. that they said is not stayed. so he is going to have what i'd like to term two babysitters overseeing him during the course of this appeal to make sure there are no financial shenanigans. and then of course he had bad news in terms of the date that was -- the soonest date that could possibly -- the criminal

case could have occurred, which is april 15th. irony there. tax day. is the date that judge merchan selected. and in very sort of scathing language with respect to one of the two criminal defense lawyers saying that -- really rebuking that criminal defense lawyer for his allegations and the way he handled himself. and the one comment i would just flag for viewers is keep your eye on this discrepancy between -- there are two defense lawyers for donald trump, todd blanche and susan necklace. and i would keep you why eye on an ongoing schism that i see, because susan neckless is a very well known, very reputable criminal defense lawyer. really excellent at her job. but she is not signing on to all of the papers that get filed

because she has her limits and she is going to stay within those limits as a respected lawyer. that is something i'm certainly keeping my eye on is where todd blanche is making arguments that she is not willing to put her reputation behind because you are not a hired gun. you are retained and you have an obligation as an officer of the court. i would keep an eye on that as the case moves forward. >> in what way? does that mean she could quit? does that mean todd blanche is doing something we could view more seedy? what does that mean? >> great question. so i think it is really a tell for the court. let me give you an example. there was a letter brief that was submitted to the judge saying that michael cohen shouldn't even be allowed to testify and really outrageous

statements were in there. that was only signed by todd blanche. the message to the court is that this is sort of off the charts, that somebody who's kind of drunk the kool-aid is going to right that because normally -- it also suggests there's a lack of sort of client control going on. if you're looking for places where there's going to be sort of political arguments unfounded in law or facts i would look to see whether they are signed by both counsel or just one counsel. and that is clearly going to be a sign to the judge who's going to be looking at that. the other point is it's very enusual. usual there is a united front that goes and presents the defense to court and it suggests that sort of internal turmoil as to how far you can go. and a real suggestion of how far

donald trump is pushing them beyond the limits of what you should be doing as counsel. >> sue. >> my mind's sort of in the bond today. and i'm just still chewing that over. it's incredible that they knocked it down so much. >> yeah. why do you think they did that? >> the frustrating thing is for viewers who haven't read it is we just don't know. it was a one, two-page decision and they knocked it down and gave limb another ten days. when i think about why they might have, i think it reached the trump arguments were really reaching fever pitch. >> the pressure. >> the pressure. in their filing they said they'd gone to 30 companies, they couldn't get a bond of that size and there was talk as we went on -- we didn't know and we don't know what letitia james was eyeing. >> to seize. >> to seize. and if it was -- if she decided to go after his cash accounts, he obviously has some accounts.

could have seized payroll. his ability to service his debt and pay his vendors. it could have collapsed the company. and i think the appellate court, if i'm imagining some of the discussion around it, 175 million is still large. it's going to aggravate a lot of people that it wasn't the full amount. but they're saying this company shouldn't -- and the appellate court too didn't know what letitia james was going to do. so i think they picked this number as something perhaps manageable. >> does he have it? >> he says he does. we'll see. i'm very much an i'll see it when i believe it person. he said he's going to put up cash for this. whether he seeks a surety bond which needs to be backed by cash we don't know. that's what he did in the e. jean carroll case. that comes with extra fees. but now he's got ten more days. and i think that this gives him, as frustrating as it is for many people to see this, it gives him, you know -- it's a win for him and it gives him some breathing room so that the company -- and the concern from

there, and they were making this case, the trump people, that the company maybe couldn't survive this. so i think it will at least give it -- >> i mean, that was an open question, right? >> and it is. it's hard when we're talking about it because you sort of hate to see something you don't know. we didn't know what letitia james was going to do. and she wanted to collect. she could have done various things with his assets or she could have just moved right in and began to seize his cash. and that would have crippled the company. >> so kim, the thing about a trump story is there's nothing new about trump being financially leveraged. and that came out in questioning including on fox news about where the money would come from. let me show you two pieces of sound. one, a reporter asking trump if he would accept money from a foreign government. and one is fox's martha mccallum asking his lawyer alina habba the same question. >> would you ever accept money from a foreign government to pay the bond or your fines or -- >> no, i don't -- i don't do that. i think you'd be allowed to

possibly. i don't know. if you go borrow from a big bank, many of the banks are outside of this -- as you know, the biggest banks frankly are outside of our country. so you could do that. but i don't need to borrow money. i have a lot of money. i built a great company. >> is there any effort on the part of your team to secure this money through another country, saudi arabia or russia, as joy behar seems to think? >> well, there's rules and regulations that are public. i can't speak about strategy. that requires certain things. and we have to follow those rules. >> notably from alina habba, given what's known as a softball i think, an opportunity to -- joy behar said from "the view." doesn't say no. and donald trump, well, you know, i've got lots of money. but there's foreign banks, there's banks that are foreign, there's money that's -- banks that are foreign. not saying no, kim adkinsstar

seems like an important story. >> i think that is a crucial part of this story. although everything that andrew said is correct about the fact that there are still overseers to this, there's also the fact that trump is prohibited from going to new york-based banks for loans to make this money. but this gets to your point, nicolle, he himself said most of the big banks are out of the country anyway. donald trump is a national security risk. we know this. from the way he's handled classified documents. he is now heavily indebted for this judgment that remains and he has of course been -- he and members of his family have been very close to russian and saudi interests, just to name a few. so this is a big problem, that he is given longer to try to court this kind of money from who knows where. and that is something that should worry all americans. but another reason, nicolle, if i may, that i'm so dismayed by

this new york appeals court ruling is yes, $175 million is still a lot of money. but the reason he was given a judgment to put up the entire amount with interest that will increase while making this appeal is to ensure that he can pay it. and i will disagree with susanne only in that we did know what letitia james was going to do. she was saying she was ready to begin attachment proceedings on his assets if he did not put up that bond. and that to me would have been the just outcome here. you can attach this stuff and you can wait. you can wait to let the appeals process play out. and if he wins then the liens lift. and if he doesn't then the judgment is executed. that seems to me like justice. i want to tell you a quick story. when i lived in new york, once i got up in the morning to move my car from one side of the street to the other because of alternate street parking.

new yorkers know what i'm talking about. i was in my pajamas. and in the time it took me to move my car from one side of the street to another i got pulled over for not wearing my seat belt and i got issued a $200 ticket. i didn't think that was fair. so i appealed it. and while the appeals process was going on and before i paid that ticket guess what, my license got temporarily suspended. new york said until you pay we're going to take something from you, which is your ability to drive. and i didn't get it back till i paid the ticket. i am getting justice that is different than the justice that donald trump is getting. for no reason at all. as susanne pointed out. this court lowered the amount that he has to be responsible for while he seeks his appeal. but i can't even get away with a 200-buck parking ticket until i have to pay up in order to pursue mine. that's why i'm angry today. >> andrew weissmann, example 749 of donald trump rolling above

the law. the notion that i would walk in there and have what i owed knocked down to a third of the judgment is ludicrous. i wouldn't even ask if that would happen for me. of course not. and the notion he's got 11 more days is ludicrous. i guess the question is is there a breaking point or is this just what trump will benefit fra, everybody always bending the rules and treating him differently than kim or me or any of us would be treated? >> well, i'm going to push back slightly but not on your big picture point. i mean, i agree with that. there's no question that there is disproportionate justice for him in countless ways. i think one of the things that you were discussing with susanne i think is worth noting and sort of reminding people, one of the reasons that people can be angry is because the appellate division judges did not set out their reasons.

so they said this is what we're doing but there's no basis given for why they're doing it. so it's very easy to be very cynical about what happened here because you don't have the court explaining chapter and verse about why they are doing this and why this is consistent with what they would do in other situations. there are situations where the court does knock down the amount of the bond that has to be put up. but what i would have looked for is to see why the court was reasoning to say this is that situation. for instance, if they said you know what, we actually think that judge engoron may have gotten the amount wrong and this is why that's a substantial issue and that's why we think this actually is enough money. we may disagree with that. but at least there would be something to go on. here it's too easy to look at this and just say were they just scared by what donald trump is

saying, did they not want to appear political? that's always -- that's the road to hell, is paved with good intentions. we've seen that. and you point that out with respect to merrick garland, that people can be well intentioned and make decisions that are fundamentally flawed because the whole point of the justice system is to treat like people alike. and if you don't set out the reasoning it leads to this kind of cynicism. and legitimate -- in other words, i understand why people would be angry. and you shouldn't have to have that question about what is going on here. is this another example of the powerful rich white man getting disproportionate justice because of threats of violence, of sort of chicken little prognostication about what's going to happen. and so that is i think something that they really did not help

themselves in making sure that there was faith in the judicial system. final note on that, this couldn't be a more important time to have faith in the judicial system because it's being attacked and will continue to be attacked. so you know, it is not too late for the courts to be doing more to set out their reasoning at a time that so many people are focused on that issue and they can really rise to the occasion. >> so i always want to know what's on your page, what's in your notebook. but tell me what happens next. what's going to happen next? >> i wrote down alt side parking. >> she said that i was like oh my god, we do it hourly. >> i have to get out there tomorrow. and i think most of the country is confused about this. if only donald trump was involved in alt side parking we might have some justice. i think the transparency issue is frustrating. today i think that it would not have taken a lot for them to put some reasoning in it. and now we're facing a situation where not only has the bond that

he has to put up come down, the appellate court is going to hear this -- this is the appellate court that's going to hear this. you sort of wonder what's going to happen. and donald trump certainly now has a lot of affection for the appellate court, and it does leave questions about what next. >> well, i can tell them what's next. he's talking about my judges, my appellate judges. get ready. andrew weissmann, sue craig, thank you both very much for spending time with us and starting with us. kim will be back later in the hour. when we come back, in the days after the deadly terror attack in moscow that has left more than 130 people dead, gaslighting by vladimir putin's regime, they are trying to use the terror attack to blame ukraine even as u.s. officials say the terrorist attack was carried out by an offshoot of isis. that story's next. and later in the hour, why the far right of the republican party has its knives out for house speaker mike johnson, who could soon be facing the same kind of humiliation and rebellion that led to the

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while emergency workers still search the rubble russian president vladimir put zinn already exploiting friday's tragic deadly terrorist attack on his own citizens to bolster his unprovoked brutal war in ukraine. the horrific attack in which four men armed with automatic rifles, knives and bombs stormed a moscow concert hall and set the roof on fire has so far left 137 people dead. that includes children. more than 100 people are also critically injured. u.s. officials say it was isis,

its afghan affiliate isis-k has claimed responsibility. and isis has long targeted russia. but putin, for whom the attack has at the very least put a massive dent in his sham election messaging last week that his control and his control only is what's best for russia's security. he waited almost 20 hours to address the russian people after the terrorist attack, which he tried to blame on ukraine. this reporting from nbc news says this. quote, when he did give a five-minute speech on saturday, putin did not mention isis or refer to the likely failure of intelligence services to prevent the assault or the security services to thwart it. instead, putin suggested that ukraine had aided the attackers by helping plan their failed escape. u.s. national security council quickly refuted that saying this. quote, isis bears sole responsibility for this attack. there was no ukrainian involvement whatsoever. joining our coverage ranking member of the house intelligence

committee congressman jim himes of connecticut. also joining our coverage former u.s. ambassador to russia and msnbc international affairs analyst michael mcfaul. first of all, congressman, when there is a terrorist attack, nobody -- this country skips over the tragedy for the citizens and the terror that it usually succeeds in creating. but i did see reporting that the u.s. sought to warn russia ahead of this attack. are you familiar with what intelligence we had and what we shared with them and how it was received? >> thanks for having me on, nicolle. not with a great deal of specificity but as you know a number of sources inside the intelligence community reported that the intelligence community does exactly what it is directed, by directive, to do under a policy called duty to warn which is that if we have credible intelligence of a potential terrorist strike the intelligence community is obligated without fear or favor, meaning we don't do it more for

our friends than for our adversaries, to warn. and in fact that is what occurred. and you know, publicly the embassy in moscow made a public statement about the inadvisability of going to crowded areas. you know, we saw putin's reaction to that shortly after the u.s. did warn his people, which is he said this is just an attempt by the united states to destabilize our politics. which along with of course his insane blaming of the ukrainians is just yet more evidence of the depravity of his regime. >> let's deal with the insane blaming of ukraine without any evidence. we have a good deal of information about how saturated russian media is with propaganda. we can call it insane but will the russian people see it as such, congressman? >> well, you know, maybe in the short term. and here's where you might check in with the former ambassador. you know, the reality is that the russian people are under the

sway of vladimir putin. but think back two generations ago. even the russians develop an immune reaction to absolutely stupid propaganda. there weren't a lot of russians at the end of the soviet union who were believing "pravda's" celebration of the fivefold increase of shoe production. so i don't know exactly where it is because i'm not a russianist. but all humans eventually develop an immune reaction to what is just obviously mendacity. >> ambassador, your name has been invoked. your thoughts on what's happening in russia today. >> well, first to start, i also -- this is a horrific terrorist attack. there's no excuse for terrorism ever. my condolences to the family and friends that lost loved ones. second, i think it's absolutely horrendous that vladimir putin after waiting a long time, as you were just talking about, chose to insinuate that the

ukrainians were involved. and then just so you're aware, people very close to the kremlin are now saying very directly that we were involved, the united states. but of course ukraine and the united states are two sides of the same enemy. that is tragic, outrageous, and to the point of whether people believe it or not i would say two things. those that support putin and watch his propaganda are going to believe it because they're in that bubble and they're there. but i think the congressman was making a very important point about the late soviet union -- i lived in the soviet union then. and today. that when you keep telling outrageous lies that are so crazy and cockamamie you lose part of the electorate. and already on my social media platforms with russians that's exactly what they're saying. you can't lie so grotesquely and expect everyone to believe it. there's one last thing i want to sigh in terms of the overall

reaction. tragically i also see on social media americans who are echoing putin's line. and i cannot believe that that echo chamber that exists in social media -- it feels to me like it's expanding, not getting smaller. that is truly tragic. and for me as an american embarrassing. >> well, let's push on that door that you opened. those voices are not on both sides. those voices are by and large on the right. and i wonder, ambassador mcfaul, what -- i mean, obviously the ukrainians are at great risk from this disinformation. they're at war with russia. but it seems that we too are at risk from this disinformation and perhaps more gravely from the fact that people here believe it. what happens next? >> well, i think it's directly impacting our national security interests. when people read that and repeat it, when people read and repeat

the propaganda about nazis in ukraine, it undermines popular support in our country to do the right thing, which in this immediate case is to provide more military assistance to ukraine. that is in our national interests. if we don't help them stop russia in their country, a few years from now we're going to be trying to stop russians from attacking or threatening nato allies. it's rational, emperric, simple to me that this is in america's national security interests. but this disinformation has this effect. and you see that in certain circles, and you're exactly right, it's not all americans, it has that effect and it leads to us in my opinion not doing the right thing for america, or american national interests. >> you guys have put the whole ball of wax on the table. i want to keep going. i have to sneak a quick break in first. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal

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his commitment is to put it on the floor after easter, and we are working on this bill -- >> as soon as you all come back april 9th? >> i would like to be done as soon as possible. he is in a very difficult spot. and this, you know, motion to vacate the chair thing, i believe he's committed because he understands national security. >> congressman jim himes, this is your colleague, congressman mccaul, talking about his leader, his speaker, speaker

johnson. tell me about the state of ukraine aid in the house. >> well, nicolle, i remain optimistic. but i'm cautious about that optimism. you heard after the budget passed and we exceed the very lowest of expectations by not shutting down the government, you heard that marjorie taylor greene filed a motion to vacate and said that the ukraine bill on the floor would be a -- would be a red line. so that's a very real thing for the speaker. now, the reason i remain optimistic is the speaker has said over and over again that he will when we get back after the easter break put something on the floor. my guess is that he does it in pieces, that is to say ukraine, israel, maybe another piece or two. but i -- it's going to be an act of courage or it's going to be a prewired act in which the speaker comes to the democrats and says look, i may face another motion to vacate and if

my motion to vacate works out the way kevin mccarthy's worked out we're looking at three weeks of chaos at least, what can you do to help me? that's a super interesting conversation both in terms of its political repercussions for him as well as how the democrats might respond to that. but i mean, i remain optimistic. but after i saw that motion to vacate get filed last week i thought this is getting pretty hot. >> you know, let me ask both of you to put your big brain on this. vaughn hillyard, one of our reporters who covers trump on the road at his rallies, brought back some tape from interviews he did after the events with trump supporters after tucker carlson was in russia. and i have to admit i don't know where to find tucker carlson these days, so i didn't watch it. but i watched jon stewart's reporting on tucker carlson's reporting. and there's this ludicrous thing with shopping carts in grocery stores and whatnot. but what was so chilling was to see trump supporters at the rallies willingly really being

interviewed by nbc correspondent vaughn hillyard saying you know what, i don't think there's anything wrong with putin or russia and i think we should just let him have ukraine. do you see a direct line, congressman, between the socializing of trump standing in helsinki, his denial was strong, trump saying putin's really smart at the beginning of the war in ukraine, tucker carlson, you know, sucking up to putin's russia all over the right wing airwaves, the normalization of putin savaging, ravaging ukraine, what is the line between -- if any, between that mindset in our country on one side of the aisle and what you're both talking about, a national security risk of putin's disinformation in the hours after a terrorist attack about ukraine? >> yeah, well, nicolle, i would answer that by saying that the line that you ask about is the line between democracy and

authoritarianism, and dare i say fascism. and look, we need to remember as we -- the ambassador was saying how heartrending it is to see americans buy into the lies of vladimir putin that this terrorist attack was undertaken by ukrainians. we should not begin to believe for one second that we're unique amongst democracies in that we don't have a fascist strain. we do. look, that strain varies between slightly larger in places like france and the extreme wing of the national front. even great britain which i usually think of as resistant to fascism had oswald mosley in world war ii. the united states is not exempt from that. and it's the people who sort of -- i'm hesitant to talk about people at trump rallies because i don't think it does us any good to have democrats characterizing people at trump rallies, but i will tell you the people like steve bannon, in and around steve bannon, are american proto fascists. and they will support vladimir putin for all the reasons that fascists like authorityians.

because they're traditional. because they're hard on lgbtq. because they're hypernationalist. we should not believe for one second that we are immune from that strain which infects every other democracy out there. >> you know, ambassador mcfaul, it was years ago, may have even been three years ago when you said on this program we need to just as the congressman is saying look not just at the struggles between democracies and autocracies but the struggles within our countries, between the pull of democratic values and autocratic tools and practices. and i wonder, it feels like in the last three years the side pulling toward autocracy and pulling toward the world's most brutal autocrats has gained some strength. >> well, that's a good memory, nicolle. you're absolutely right. we've talked about this for years now on your program. this fight between autocrats and democrats is not between countries. right? it's not the cold war when we had red states and blue states. it's within these states, where you have these fights going.

i agree completely with congressman hymes about that. and tragically it's a moving story, right? some places you see surges. sometimes you see decline. sometimes they come to power like they did in italy and then they're not as crazy as we thought. but in our country it is alive and well and it reminds me of the 1930s. in fact, there's this great book you should all read by a woman named rachel maddow. it's called "prequel." i highly recommend it. it's sitting on my desk right now. i just moved it when the congressman was speaking. >> i saw you do that. >> because it tells the story, it tells the story and it's not a story a lot of americans know, where millions of americans also had sympathies for nazis. and there was propaganda and radio shows being used and it was only -- and we just put our heads in the sand and we said what happens over in europe doesn't matter to us. the japanese invading china doesn't matter to us. and then tragically when we were

ignoring all this it finally mattered when we were attacked in 1941. and i just urge people to read that history so that we don't repeat it again because i was just in europe a few months ago. first in lithuania in & then later in munich. and that is a narrative you hear repeatedly from those on the frontline states in europe. >> well, you know what we'll do, and i love asking people on live tv, because it's -- even if you don't want to it's impossible to tell me that on live tv. we'll have rachel here. we'll get both of you in the studio. and we'll go through some of that. because i think increasingly these are conversations, just to be blunt, that people had off tv. and i appreciate both of you. i was going to thank both of you so much for being so real and going there because this is really a conversation happening among former national security officials, among former diplomats, probably among current national security officials and current diplomats as well. but it feels like the central sort of flashing yellow warning for us if we want to stare it down. so we will do that. congressman jim himes,

ambassador michael mcfaul, thank you both so much for this conversation. we are grateful. when we come back, much more on the chaos in the house gop with speaker mike johnson facing a rebellion on his right flank all because he had the audacity to do his job, to work with democrats to keep the government functioning. we'll bring you that story next. functioning. we'll bring you that story next. okay y'all we got ten orders coming in... big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant... that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up.

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speaker. tensions came to a boiling point on friday when speaker mike johnson was able to get a bill that funds the government passed with the help of democrats since the majority of house gop members voted against it. before the bill even passed marjorie taylor greene filed a motion to vacate the speakership and a number of other far right members of the house have not ruled out removing johnson. as axios puts it today, their biggest issue, quote, was the fact that the bill represented a bipartisan compromise. it's hard not to laugh. joining us back at the table, former republican congressman david jolly. kim's back with us. that's it. poison pill. bipartisan compromise to keep the government functioning and you're out. >> anytime government works the hard right loses. that's the lesson of this. i think what might save mike johnson's speakership in the short run is simply that there's nothing left for him to capitulate on on the major legislation. come september 30th they will have to keep the government open but they won't have an appropriations budget in place. so they'll just kick it down the

road four to six months. i think the more intriguing thing is what do the rebels, what's the chaos caucus do? i don't know that they move to remove speaker johnson between now and the election because you truly can't predict how that would turn out. i think what they do is use their leverage, they get a group of 10 to 20 people to say to johnson you don't have our votes in january if we return in the majority, so maybe you're not the speaker in the next congress. >> they're dropping like flies. is he definitely going to stay speaker? >> hakeem jeffries might be the speaker. >> right. >> that's the reality. >> you do one more, you know, backstabbing on me and -- >> the mike johnson case is a very interesting study because he's as conservative as they come. particularly on religious issues and that whole thing. and to have somebody from the hard right thrust into the speakership where his job meets the reality of 218 votes to govern, the votes just aren't there among republicans. so he has to work with democrats. and look, mike johnson might say i can't do this job in the next

congress. >> kim, i guess i'm old enough to remember when this was terrible politics. but that just shows you how sort of calcified politics on the right really are. that what's good for the house is terrible for the senate candidates that will be running in november and they do it anyway. >> yeah. and just to build on a point that the congressman so rightly made, is that mike johnson is no centrist. >> correct. >> he's no person trying to, you know, torpedo the things that the most conservative of conservatives want. you would think he would be a dream candidate in a trump-mitch mcconnell age. but that still is not good enough for him to govern. i think at this point i do miss the good old days, nicolle, where these fights were about policy or even ideology of one side or another. now it just shows that under gop control the house is

ungovernable. they cannot govern. they can barely keep the lights on. the infighting and the nonsensical nature of it all is so great. and i think what that says to voters in all -- every single one of these 435 house elections in november is the choice now is between governing and not. you may not like all the policy that comes out of the governing. but not governing at all is the alternative at this point. >> right. at least your checks will continue to show up in the mail because the government will be open. i mean, kim, i have some of former speaker mccarthy's reaction. i'm not going to play it because the reason we're here is because speaker mccarthy dismantled the speakership. i mean, the reason this exists, the reason marjorie taylor greene could do this is because he gave this away. and his groveling, his pathetic, you know, 18 innings and you're in run for speaker. this is all of their own making. >> it is. it really was.

we got here from "lord of the flies." right? there was the embattled election of mccarthy himself, and then there was the ouster, and then there was the none of the above could win for a period of time. you know, they were floating one candidate after the next and suddenly mike johnson ended up with the seat. this was not thoughtful, clear leadership. it was a mess that just got them there, which just proves my other point. it's just -- it's hard to even talk about the policy just because it's so broken. it's fundamentally broken. >> at least democrats, when they were in control, they were governing. they were passing bills. right now, if you compare hakeem jeffries to mike johnson, i think it is night and day. so, i do not see where republicans think they're helping themselves with this at

all. >> you accurately predicted the last round of all this. what you think happens next? >> i do think the most likely scenario, there are plenty, but enough republicans withhold the votes from mike johnson in january. the question though is which party wins the house and by what majority? you know, the benefit pre- mccarthy and pre-johnson is they had a wide enough margin to deal with the chaos caucus. i'm not sure anyone is predicting a red wave in the house. we are looking at a slim majority for democratic control. who knows if there are additional resignations. it's getting late in the game getting state qualifications. i worked initially on the hill for someone who served for 43 years and he said something to me one day, a tough day at the end of the day he said you know, but 40 honor this job, it really stinks. first and foremost, it's an honor every day. i think most members understand

you hold the public trust. many of them are realizing this job stinks under a republican majority. >> they're dropping like flies. they are realizing it stinks and they are not even getting it out. maybe they made it too dishonorable to do so. >> we are celebrating the cup the government open. the reality is it is six months overdue. they just got around to passing last year's budget. it cannot function. now, again, fortunately the only impasse between now and the end of the year will be they have to do some type of temporary band-aid september 30th of this year. i don't think we will see a fight over that. >> all right. thank you, both, for being with us today. another break for us. we will be right back. back. in studies, the majority of people reached an a1c under 7 and maintained it. i'm under 7. ozempic® lowers the risk of major cardiovascular events such as stroke, heart attack, or death in adults also with known heart disease. i'm lowering my risk. adults lost up to 14 pounds. i lost some weight. ozempic® isn't for people with type 1 diabetes.

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this case is not about the safety or efficacy of medication abortion. the fda has already made clear that mifepristone is safe and effective. no, this case is purely about partisan politics. not medical science. if the supreme court's side with the extremists in this case, it will threaten access to abortion everywhere. >> that was senator elizabeth warren on the stakes for all of us in tomorrow's supreme court arguments on the legality and availability of the most common and safest form of abortion care management. the drug mifepristone. it is the first case on abortion that the court has heard it since the dobbs decision the nation's highest court in the land stripped away

a constitutional right from a generation of women for the first time ever. depending on how the supreme court rules, access to the drug could be dramatically curtailed. seven -- senator warren noted even in states for women who have protection protected abortion access. medicated abortions account for 63% of all procedures. we will stay on the story throughout the day tomorrow. another break for us. we will be right back. back. . lost her card, not the vibe. the soul searcher, is finding his identity, and helping to protect it. hey! oh yeah, the explorer! she's looking to dive deeper... all while chase looks out for her. because these friends have chase. alerts that help check. tools that help protect. one bank that puts you in control. chase. make more of what's yours.

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are grateful. the beat starts right now. happy monday.