thanks for spending time with us. you can always get me online at arimedical better.com or @ari melber. we showed you that eric holder interview. any other questions for him? sign up or use social media. we have more of that media on air new tomorrow. so i hope you come back and join us on tv tomorrow at 6:00 p.m. eastern. "the reidout" with joy reid starts now. tonight on "the reidout" -- >> are you ready? >> i'm absolutely ready. i've been ready. i'm hoping with all of my heart that they call me because as i showed on the stand against michael avenatti, i don't need

someone to speak for me. and i relish the day that i get to face him and speak my truth. >> the first trump criminal case to go to trial might not be about classified documents or january 6th, but in the end it might be this woman, stephanie clifford, stage name stormy daniels who brings down donald trump. also tonight, have i some thoughts about ronna mcdaniel and the normalization of the dangerous damned lies from the republican party. plus, not one, but two big announcements involving my friend and colleague, the rachel maddow. stay tuned for that. but we begin tonight with a date now set for the first criminal prosecution of a former american president. of course, i'm speaking of donald trump, and that date is april 15th. mark your calendars. no, it is not one of the two trials for trying to overturn the 2020 election or the one for grossly mishandling classified

documents when he left the white house. this one is for falsifying business records to hide the hush money payments trump signed off on ahead of the 2016 presidential election. those checks were written by trump's lawyer michael cohen to pay off adult film star stormy daniels and keep her quiet about her alleged sexual affair with trump, while melania, trump's third wife, was pregnant with his fifth child. now i know the idea of trump getting busy with stormy daniels is not the image you want littering your mind at the dinner hour, just like this trial is not the one most people were hoping for. but it may very well be the only criminal case to good to trial before the november election. but that's not the say that it's not an important case, because in the end, it is not a trial about paying off a porn star. it's about lying to the american electorate to influence an election by suppressing negative information about the candidate. trump paid ms. daniels to keep

their relationship secret. not from melania, but from voters. that's why he did it. and remember, the payoff came at a time when trump was facing harsh backlash to the "access hollywood" video of trump claiming he could grab women by the you know what. at the same time, he was courting once reluctant evangelical voters. and let's not forget that michael cohen went to jail, in part for those very payments. so why shouldn't trump, who is listed as individual 1 in the indictment of michael cohen? today, on what was originally scheduled to be the first day of the trial, trump's lawyers failed in their attempts to convince the judge to further delay it or even dismiss it. judge juan marchon was described as uncharacteristically furious as he called out trump's lawyers for accusing the manhattan's d.a. office of prosecutorial misconduct but providing nothing to back up the claim. before making his ruling, he

added, quote, it's odd that we're even here and that we've taken this time. trump has said he would be appealing that decision, but the judge appeal or not, he expects to see trump in court next month for trial. and while trump may finally have to face accountability for some of his actions, he is still catching breaks. as today's ruling was under way, a new york appeals court judge handed him a pretty hefty one, reducing the bond for his civil fraud verdict and buying him more time. he now has 10 more days to put up a $175 million bond rather than the original nearly $500 million amount that was due today. the appeals court provided no explanation for its leniency. joining me law professor at new york university and msnbc little analyst. tim o'brien, senior executive editor of bloomberg opinion and an msnbc political analyst. and tristan snell, former

assistant attorney general for new york and for of "taking down trump: 12 rules for prosecuting trump by someone who successfully did it." let me start with you. no explanation from the appeals court why they gave him more time. can you explain? >> this is a five-judge panel. we don't know what their reasoning is, but it seems clear from the order that they thought judge engoron's order limiting trump's family to run this entity and imposing that huge $465 million fine was excessive. they reduce that to $175 million which is exactly the amount the trump organization had pressed for in the first instance, and they basically stayed all of the other conditions involving the family's running of the organization with the exception of the imposition of a special monitor to view all of these. that gets saved. it does seem that this intermediate appellate court was incredibly sympathetic to donald trump. a win for him today, but not a total win. $175 million still a lot of money. he is probably going to have to put up about $200 million in

quit assets or collateral in order to get a bond for this. so he is not out of the woods yet. but this is a significant one for him. >> and it doesn't change the underlying rule. he still owes the 455? >> this is just while he is appealing that decision, yes. >> does he have $175 million? >> he can probably get it. i doubt -- i think he is getting pressed up against the wall right now in terms of what he has on hand that's liquid that a surety company would feel comfortable bonding because of the collaterals there. they're not going to want to take little bitty pieces of a bunch of different real estate. they're going to want to go after his cash. what's perplexing to me is he already said last week that he already has 500 million. after a year ago saying he had 400 million, and then in between those two moments saying actually, i don't have anything. and i think in that context, i think the appellate court didn't do a service towards a defendant being clear and honest with the court, even -- and i think the appellate court clearly thinks that engoron overreached, i think.

they've stayed both the size -- not the size of the judgment, but what trump needed to put down to appeal. >> yeah. >> but they also stayed keeping the boys out of the business and some of the other punitive things that judge engoron put in place. so it seems to me they felt judge engoron overreached. that's what gets ironed out in an appeals process. they've sort of gotten into the middle of this now and cut away at some of the foundations of both the ruling, and they've signaled what they think about the whole process. and that feels untoward. on the other hand, donald trump and people of means routinely get breaks in the judicial process that we average parking toll violators do not. >> do not. you were practically almost laughing. i saw you. i think you want the say something. i feel with my spirit. so say it. >> yeah, the whole -- as you put it, first the $400 million. he stated that during one of the e. jean carroll cases. then in between oh, i've got

nothing. now all of the sudden oh, i've got $500 million and they're trying to take it from me. >> no, he has 11 billion. >> oh, 11 billion. >> plus one. plus one. >> let's talk whereby he might be able to get the money. let's play this. let me just read this. if there is a piece that's called trump's media grift goes public. this might be the way he finds the cash. donald trump has this thing called truth social that nobody is on except his hard-core fans. it's losing a bunch of money. it's in the red. what's unique about this thing really to be go public is whether it's a short-term play like the trump nfts and trading cards, only scaled way up, or long-term scheme, along the lines of the trump hotel in d.c. or corporations, foreign governments and the gop faithfully opened up their wallets to curry favor with the former president. will trump cash out before the whole thing goes belly-up? will he hang on to the shares and hopes he wins the house and can spend four years selling high-priced ad space to the kingdom of saudi arabia and coal magnates? he can do all of it.

it sounds like a pump and dump. go to work. >> to begin, he is locked up for six months. >> right. >> and he gets diluted. his stake is not going to be $3 billion. even when as of tomorrow morning, i guess, it will probably be i think 780 to $800 million. the board can tell him. >> that he can take it. >> to get a waiver from the board, though, i think would expose the company to serious liability. >> yes. >> from shareholders. again, for board to waive and allow him to dump the stock. >> you're basically putting up neon sign that says go sue me in delaware for shareholder liability. >> and two guys from "the apprentice" who started this. then it's going to be bought by this shell company and that goes public and somehow donald trump gets $3 billion. this sounds like a pump and dump. if you were new york ag, wouldn't you be prosecuting somebody for this? >> contrary to popular belief, i do not have a red telephone that

connects me to my old colleagues. >> how about that thing next to you. >> this right here. i have to believe that at least looking at this. >> yeah. >> they cannot not be. >> it's the way he gets the money. >> he is using a vehicle without getting into technicalities. they're avoided to avoid the normal ipo process, the normal financial disclosure to reassure investors that you're buying into something that has a track record. >> it's profitable. >> it's called full disclosure. this is a business basically built on donald trump becoming president. so his posts on truth will become more valuable. that's the business model. >> the d.a. bragg case gets short shrift. >> it does. >> because of stormy daniels. it's about we don't want to think about donald trump with a porn star. she also says ew, by the way, stormy daniels. i love her. she is great. >> she has earned her money. >> talk about this case. this is the case that is actually going happen. >> i think that's right. i do think it gets short shrift

because the facts are so salacious. but it is a species of election interference. and alvin bragg has consistently talked about it in that tenor. this is like the lead-up to what we see on january 6th. it's the dress rehearsal, keeping information from the voting public in order to maximize or optimize your chances for election. and, again, to do anything to win. and you see that again happening on january 6th. so, again, i think the two cases actually run together, and we dismiss or pooh-pooh this case to our detriment. >> here's the thing, tim. today one of donald trump's fans, we're assuming while he was in court, because our reporter saw him in court. someone posted to his truth social something comparing him to jesus the christ. and this is the week before easter weekend is this coming weekend. and they compare him to jesus. and they quote the psalms 109 in the new king james version. but i think there is a few lines that they might have missed. let an accuser stand in his

right hand. when he is judged, let him be found guilty. let his children continually be vagabonds and beg. let the creditor seize all that he has. let his posterity be cut off. in the generation following, let their name be blotted out. let the iniquity of his father be remembered before the lord. and why? because he did not remember to show mercy but persecuted the needy man. don't merz with a former bible sunday school teacher. to quote that and not actually know the bible probably a little bit of an error on the part of his fans. >> or lose track about what christianity is about to be about, love and forgiveness at its core, at its core in the bible. and you are -- they're comparing someone who is not loving, who is not forgiving, who is a vicious racist, and he's trying to torch the constitution. he is the last person on earth who should be compared to any religious figure, much less jesus christ. and i say that as an agnostic.

and it's a measure i think of i think some of the cultish qualities that cling to trumpism, which is you'll compare him to anyone you worship because you worship him, and in that process, you lock past all of is -- all of is horrors. >> and the thing that's so ironic about it is the stormy daniels payoff happens because he's trying to court evangelicals. >> yes. >> he is trying to make them look past what he said in that "access hollywood" video and get them to worship him instead of jesus, which is idolatry. but he managed to do it because they did. this bible verse is a psalm of king david. what they did to trick evangelicals into worshipping donald trump like baal in the bible is to say he is king david. but you know what? david didn't do the wrong that he was persecuted for and executed for. trump did. >> right. that's the difference.

>> is he going to be convicted in your view in the case about the payoff to stormy daniels? michael cohen was. >> i do believe. so i think this is a very compact fact pattern. it's an easy story to tell. there is not a lot of documents. i don't have you a tape recording you. you have a number of witnesses. you can say all you want about the different witnesses, but michael cohen has been saying the same truth over and over again for six years, ever since he stopped working for trump. and stormy daniels has been saying the same thing about this other and over again. and then you've got david pecker, who is the one who actually received the money. and then i think we've got the wild card of what are we going to hear or not hear from allen weisselberg. but it doesn't matter. you the paper. you have the recording. i think you're going to have a couple of witnesses. i think you get a conviction. i think you're then left with the legal question was it done in service of a different crime. >> right. >> and that's ultimately going get decided up on appeal. but as for the jury, i see a conviction, personally. >> does he spend a day in jail? >> again, for this particular

crime, and again, it is a misdemeanor in new york unless it is attached or bootstrapped to another crime, which makes it a felony. and again, that will be worked out i think on appeal. it's not the kind of thing where you're going see him do a lot of jail time. he may not do any jail time for it. whether or not it moves the needle i think is an open question. but i think it cannot help to go into this election cycle as an convicted criminal. >> that's right. he will then be in addition to all the other records he set as president, not just the first multiply indicted or even singly indicted but also the first former felon president, if he is convicted. but we'll see what happens in the case. melissa murray, tim o'brien, tristan snell, thank you very much. coming up, my thoughts on ronna mcdaniel plus big news involving rachel maddow. a major rule from the u.n. security council on gaza. with a surprising move from the biden administration. "the reidout" continues after this. s after

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today the united nations security council passed its first resolution calling for an unconditional ceasefire in gaza. it was a 14-0 vote. note that i said it was unanimous, 14 all. that is because in an astonishing and rare move, the united states abstained. here is linda thomas-greenfield, u.s. ambassador to the united nations voting to abstain, clearing the way for the mexico to pass. the u.s. has vetoed three

previous resolutions demanding a halt to the fighting. and just a few days ago had presented its own resolution to the security council using the toughest u.s. language yet, calling for immediate and sustained halt to the fighting in connection with the release of the hostages. it was also the first time the u.s. had used the term "ceasefire" since the war began. but the u.s. resolution failed after russia and china vetoed it. still, that resolution and monday's decision to abstain are the latest glaring signs of the biden administration's frustration with israel's approach to its war on hamas in gaza. and it's a notable break with america's long-standing defense of the israeli government, usually come what may. prime minister benjamin netanyahu, who is the source of the biden administration's frustration, reacted angrily to the u.s. vote to abstain, canceling a high-level delegation to washington for meeting with u.s. officials. the meetings had been scheduled to discuss alternatives to a

planned israeli offensive into rafah, the southern city where more than a million people have sought refuge amid u.s. concerns over the death toll in gaza topping 31,000 and the growing risk of mass starvation. joining me now is the executive vice president of the quincy institute for responsible state craft. and nara hawk, former state didn't adviser and former state department adviser. explain why it is so major for the u.s. to abstain. >> it is a very big deal, because we have seen in the last month and a half or so that the administration had shifted its rhetorical position and started talking about a ceasefire, talking about the need for the fighting to end, et cetera. but we have not seen any real shift in its position. today, by abstaining to this resolution, which had the clearest demands for a ceasefire

yet, we actually saw a change in the position as well. now that's not enough, however. it all depends now on the implementation of this, and only the united states and biden has the leverage to be able to put pressure on israel to actually follow through and get -- whether that happens or not remains to be seen. but at least we have taken one step forward. >> it is clear there are political incentives for president obama to shift his position, obviously rifts within the democratic base. you and i talk a lot about the rise of the global south. i just want the note for our audience who put forward this resolution. it was the ten nonpermanent members of the security council, allgaieria, gyan narcotics republic of korea, sierra leone, slovenia, ecuador, japan, malt tax, mozambique and switzerland. and i want to let you listen to ambassador carolyn rodriguez burkett who is guyana's permanent representative to the united nations.

this is what she said on monday. >> after more than five months of a war of utter terror and destruction, a ceasefire is the difference life and death for hundreds of thousands of palestinians and others. for the people in gaza, there is man-made starvation, and we are already seeing evidence of a man-made famine. all of this when there is food available, but deliberately withheld. >> it definitely feels that this is a rare instance. even though it was an abstention of the u.s. allowing the global south to speak. >> oh, and even the fact that prior to this, south africa is the country that tried to bring a case against israel, right, given south africa's own history of apartheid and how that language is being used in the palestinian context that is also a deeply powerful move at the u.n. the u.n. was originally created largely to be european power.

western powers having dominance and continuing in a diplomatic way the imperialism that they have presented to the rest of the world for so long. the reform at the u.n. to even bring in members of the global south on to the security council has been part of that recognition that so much of what is done in the global body impacts people outside of the united states, right. the big global economies, the g7, the g20, all of those ultimately they control the money, but the impact is on the people in countries like guyana, like south africa and in the global south. >> and you said the important thing is now what happens next. you still have a big fight in the united states and you're up against unruh, which is a agency that has helped to feed the palestinian people. you do have what appears to be near famine conditions in gaza. what would you expect the u.s.

is serious about getting a ceasefire that they do next. you still have hostages stuck there. there is still a lot they have to do. >> ultimately nothing is going to change unless biden is willing to put a halt to the arms sales to israel. if the u.s. stops the ammunition, the israelis will run out within five days, and then we will have a ceasefire. so far biden has not been willing to do so. and i have to say there was also a missed opportunity in all of this. the fact that the u.s. abstained was so positively received, it was a moment of healing. but then the u.s. turned around, the biden administration turned around and saying this resolution is not legally binding. that is actually factually incorrect. but what it did, it really created a lot of tensions along these different countries that started as an opportunity to be able to mend fences with the united states to bring the u.s. along for a ceasefire and the biden administration turns around and says this is not legally binding. incidentally, this would mean the call or the demand for the unconditional and immediate

release for the hostages is also not legally binding. why would the administration say such a thing? >> let me let you weigh in on that nayyera? what is going on here? it still feels they're trying to a bit have it both ways. bibi heard it and canceled his meetings in washington. your take. >> it's the difference between the united nations being a place of norms and standards setting and bilateral relationships between two countries being where the real action happens, where real change is made. so that's what bibiis reacting to, the united states is no longer doing the we support israel no matter what, given the threats that israel has faced on the world stage. but on the flip side, bibi is also facing a hard reality back at home where even his own war cabinet is looking to remove him and make a change to his own war policy. so this is this extreme reaction of pulling back a delegation

from the united states is not really about the u.s. relationship, it's about bibi's sending signals to people in his own country that he is still a strong and competent leader. >> we are out of time. but it will be interesting to see if biden keeps moving in this direction and takes advice and actually puts some meat on those bones. trita parsi, nayyera haq, thank you so much. there is a reason that the hiring of ronna mcdaniels looks different. we'll take a look at how pernicious her big lie was, up next. no, my denture's uncomfortable! dracula, let's fight back against discomfort. with new poligrip power max hold & comfort. it has superior hold plus keeps us comfy all day with it's pressure absording layer. time for a bite!

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in politics, we sometimes have lies, lies, and damn lies. there are things said in politics that are untrue, but ultimately benign in that they mainly impact the politician and his or her family, even if they are embarrassing. i've been faithful to my wife but that's not true comes to mind. there are things that come untrue when circumstances change. george w. bush sr.'s vow to not raise taxes. and there are just plain lies, including lies that can be dangerous to people's lives and even to our democracy. the lie that the 2020 election was stolen from donald trump is one of those damned dangerous lies. it is the motion widely peddled by fox and other right ring

media, by trump and marjorie green and other maga cultists that through massive multi-state cheating and fraud carried out mainly in black and hispanic community, trump was made to appear to lose the presidential election and that he actually won. it is a lie. really, a series of damaging lies that have literally put american democracy on the brink of collapse. trump invented the big lie for the mallest boy reasons, embarrassment. he knew before the election that he was likely going to lose, largely because of his mishandling of the covid pandemic, which broke out early that election year, 2020, killing a million americans before it slowed down. and killing disproportionately white republicans in red states, by the way, because it was they who rejected wearing masks or getting vaccinated, because they had been taken in by snake oil salesman in the right wing griftssphere who had been working horse dewarmer or irradiating their insides rather

than taking advantage of trump's own operation warp speed. bottom line, the pandemic was out of control. plus, george floyd's life street execution by a minneapolis police officer in may of 2020 had young black and white americans and even corporate america leaning woke rather than maga. and it wasn't just trump who knew he was going to lose. roger stone knew it. trump's campaign knew it. pollsters knew it and warned about a red mirage, and i knew it. so they decided to just lie and get trump's millions of super fans that he didn't lose. it wasn't just stolen. it wasn't just stolen from him, but from them. now how do you do that? well, first, you take advantage of the fact that states needed to react to the covid pandemic by finding a way for voters to cast ballots and gathering in person and spreading the virus. so what if you say by doing that, states make an emergency

accommodation to allow folks to vote absentee from home or put their ballots in drop boxes was really a way to steal the election. . >> one thing that has changed is the way many people are voting this year. in 2018, michiganders overwhelmingly approved proposal 3 which allows no reason absentee voting. republicans aren't happy about the mail-in system. >> we're really concerned about michigan that are upending their entire election process this close to an election, that that could wreak havoc. >> and what if you even get your hand-picked postmaster general, louis dejoy to literally slow down the mail so maybe the ballots will arrive late, and then you can say that too is fraud. >> on the eve of a national election, at a time when the cbs is advising people not to gather, limit outside contact, the postal service started removing 671 high-speed mail sorting machines across the country. you sent out a later

embarrassingly in july to 46 states that said the post office can't guarantee we can deliver the mail in time for the elections in november. either through gross incompetence, you have ended the 240-year history of delivering the mail reliably on time, or the second conclusion that we could gather is that you're doing this on purpose, and that you're deliberately dismantling this once proud tradition. >> and then on election night, when republican voters who had said hell no to absentee voting because they didn't believe the pandemic was real any way, were told to vote in person because absentee voting in drop boxes are fraud, when they see that the first votes that get counted night of, the early and election day in person votes get drowned out after midnight when the absentees are counted. meaning what looked like a trump win when they went to bed is a trump loss by morning? the idea that the election was stolen will be baked in. and the angriest among them

might even promptly descend on voting centers. and then what if you say that instead of states sending the real biden slates of electors to congress after counting the votes, republicans who run those states, which just so happen to be battleground states, should send congress this alternative slate of trump elects or the. since without the covid accommodations which caused all this supposed fraud, trump would have won. this guy who tried to get those fake electors to the vice president shows you the way. >> there are all kinds of irregularities in wisconsin in the 2020 election. in order to make sure that the case system wasn't determined to be moot, they had to have an alternate slate of electors, just like democrats have done repeatedly in all kinds of different states there was nothing untoward what they did. there is nothing illegal what they did. there is just an alternate slate of electors. >> yeah, so that's a lie. but then, if you throw in a

made-up story that even the in-person votes can't be trusted because the italians and venezuela's dictator have been playing with the voting machines, you now have the big lie. and donald trump doesn't have to be embarrassed that he lost to joe biden. he can just say he didn't lose and he can get thousands of people to literally commit felonies trying to help him stay in office despite losing. these are not unfaithful to my wife lies. these aren't even i said i'd cut tax but now i'm raising them lies. these are making people doubt the validity of elections, and therefore democracy lies. these are get people so angry, they storm the capitol lies. these are lies that make people participate in a rico scheme to correct the election in georgia lies. these are lies that put people in prison, because they believed the whole thing. these are lies that get people hurt even killed. and one of the entities that helped donald trump push these lies was the republican national committee, the rnc, which is the official arm of the republican

party. they're the ones that attacked republicans like liz cheney and adam kinzinger for investigating the assault on january 6th by accusing them of persecution of ordinary citizens engaged in legitimate political discourse. for the last seven years, until about a month ago, the chair of the rnc was ronna romney mcdaniel. she dropped the romney from her name apparently buzz donald trump hates mitt romney for failing to vote for him in both of his impeachments. and ronna is mitt romney's niece. she is also a very, very well paid contributor to nbc news, something that has concerned many of news this company, because ron desantis has be a major peddler of the big lie, including pushing michigan to send fake electors to congress. she did that and high pressure phone calls to state officials in michigan. according to the deteriorate detroit news which broke the story of the call, mcdaniels joined donald trump on a

november 17th call while he pressured two republican members of the wayne county board of canvassers not to sign the certification of the 2020 presidential election. she sat by while trump told these folks that they would look terrible if they signed the documents after they first voted in opposition. mcdaniel added, quote, if you can go home tonight, do not sign it. we will get you attorneys. well, over the weekend, nbc's kristen welker, the moderator of "meet the press" asked ronna mcdaniels about those lies. >> did you not have a responsibility as the rnc chair to say before january 6th the election is not rigged, that donald trump lost, given that there were audits, given that there were more than 60 court cases that occurred all across the country. and donald trump lost. >> the reality is joe biden won. he is the president. he is the legitimate president. i have always said, and i continue to say there were

issues in 2020. i believe that. both can be true. you can say massive laws were changed. they were changed through courts or through secretaries of state and not through the legislative process in the name of the pandemic that took away safeguards to the election. >> ronna mcdaniel, who now works for a news organization, apparently still believes, or at least is unwilling to stop saying that expanding absentee voting during a global deadly pandemic is election fraud and theft. and she apparently still thinks there is a justification for committing state and federal felonies by submitting fake elector slates to congress instead of the real ones so that the loser of a presidential election can stay in power any way. i wish i was fibbing. but i'm not. my guest and have i much more to say about this after this short break. don't go anywhere. break. don't go anywhere. g sensation, and last for weeks. shingles could make it hard to be there for your loved ones. over 50?

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try dietary supplements from voltaren for healthy joints. but to the question, though, do you disagree with trump saying he is going to free those who have been charged -- >> i do not think people who committed violent acts on january 6th should be freed. >> so you disagree with that. he has been saying that for months, ronna. why not speak out earlier? why just speak out about that now? >> when you're the rnc chair, you kind of take one for the whole team, right? now i get to be a little bit more myself, right. >> okay. let's dissect all of this with some of my esteemed nbc family

colleagues. molly jones and charlie sykes is joining me right now. molly "vanity fair" special correspondent, msnbc contributor and host of "the fast politics" podcast. we were talking during the break. i want to bring our conversation aboard. i think the reason i want to do that way is i think people have forgotten what the big lie is. it wasn't just trump saying i won. he is saying black and brown people getting to vote absentee in these swing states is inherently fraud. >> yeah, what's so upsetting about the big lie was that it was targeting black and brown people. it was this idea that we cannot have a multiracial democracy that they cannot. again, this is the whole ethos of trumpism is this racism that you can't have a black president. you can't an equal society. what the dream is, what we all came to this country for. >> yeah. >> and so when you talked about that, i was so moved by it, but also i remembered how important it is. you know, we are all here.

we make democracy work. our grandparents, our great grandparents, we came here for a better life. so i was really moved by that. and i thought it was an important thing. >> thank you. i want to read what charlie said about ronna. this is liz cheney. a very conservative right wing republican who probably voted with trump 90% of the time when she was in congress. ronna facilitated trump's fake elector plot and his effort to pressure michigan officials not to certify the legitimate election outcome. she spread his lies and called january 6th legitimate political discourse. that's not one taking one for the team, as you heard her say, it's enabling criminality and depravity. the idea, charlie, please respond to the idea about lying about the election and claiming detroit voters didn't have the right to vote absentee, and therefore they are fraud, how is that taking one for the team? what team? >> yeah, well, obviously it's not team america. look, what is absolutely incomprehensible about ronna mcdaniel being hired is this is

not about right versus left. it's not about democrat versus republican. it's not even whether or not she is a political hack. the problem with ronna mcdaniel is that she is a co-conspirator and an enabler who lied about this election and as you demonstrated just a few minutes ago, continues to lie about this. i mean, her defense is well, i lied about this stuff in the past because i was paid to lie, and now i'm not paid to lie anymore. so i can be more myself. but the reality is that she continues to push the big lie. and, you know, it is worth stepping back and which has been threatening to take action against corporations? whether it's appeasement or

access, it needs to be seen, in the context of the fact that we are not in a normal political season and the journalistic organizations cannot behave in a routine normal way. i'm not, i can't remember, not even i am old enough to remember any time when someone would have hired somebody who had engaged in this criminal adjacent deception and liz cheney is actually calling her out. you know, it's not as if there are not conservatives who have something to add, but this is not about having a conservative on the air. this is about somebody, who has been joined at the hip with donald trump's attempt to deceive the american public, disenfranchise millions of voters including my vote in the state of wisconsin. and he continues to do so. >> and this is not about having republicans on. my good friend michael steele is the former rnc chair.

and one of the best broadcasters on this network is a former republican, it's not about that, we welcome republican people. i want adam kinzinger and liz cheney to come talk to me. this isn't a difference of opinion. she literally backed an illegal scheme to steal an election in the state of michigan. >> it's not about partisanship. we have to be pro-democracy, and that's the goal here. and it's fine to have your own views but you can't have your own reality. and we all know that the 2020 election was free and fair and she couldn't even say it on sunday. she is still saying there were problems with it. it was a global pandemic. that is what happened.

global pandemic. i mean that was really, and i would also add, that the road to authoritarianism is paved with people like her, people who repeat the lies that are not true. >> it's also paid with capitulating in advance. it saying that we have to entertain the idea that the election was stolen on an equal level as we entertain the idea that we should be a multiracial democracy, that these things should be equal so that we are quote unquote, fair. that is not fairness and balanced, that is capitulating to an autocrat by saying yes, we will take your apparatchik and allow them to be on the platform with us, with journalists. >> that's the most alarming part about the story, and i hope that they will try and clarify this because donald trump has explicitly said if he gets into power, his presidency would be one of retribution and he would target media outlets, use the power of the federal

government to go after license holders like nbc and cnn. now, is this capitulation in advance saying okay, i think you might be president and we have to make nice with you. we have to treat you in a different way. if that is the case, and i'm raising this as a question, that's the kind of appeasement that i think ought to be very concerning to people, and again, it's not about differing points of view here, because there are many people, michael steele is a perfect example who have a different point of view, but played a specific role. i can't forget, remember, she was the one who hosted that press conference at the rnc, with sydney powell, where sidney powell was advancing some of the most bizarre, toxic lies about this, and this was sponsored by ronna mcdaniel as

head of the rnc, who then tweeted out videos of this, as far as i know, it's still up on the web. so ronna mcdaniel is not just somebody who had an opinion about this, she was an active enabler and co-conspirator in this attempt to overturn the election. >> i appreciate you both. thank you for standing up for democracy and charlie sykes and i were on opposite sides, he is a real conservative not the trump fake kind and the kind that i deeply respect. thank you very much, charlie and molly. next, a big announcement that you do not want to miss. you don't want to miss it. come right back, we will tell you on the other side of you onthe break. t.

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before we go i've got a couple of big involvements --

announcement, rachel will join me tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern following the supreme court arguments about the abortion pill. and then, saturday, april 6th at 7:30, for all the new yorkers, rachel and i will be at the apollo theater in harlem, for a conversation about my new book, the love story that awakened america. explore the grassroots work that went into winning basic rights for americans and the repercussions that still resonate today. go to msnbc.com for tickets and we hope to see you there, just come out and see it. that's tonight. all in with jen psaki starts now.