announcement, rachel will join me tomorrow night at 7:00 eastern following the supreme court arguments about the abortion pill. and then, saturday, april 6th at 7:30, for all the new yorkers, rachel and i will be at the apollo theater in harlem, for a conversation about my new book, the love story that awakened america. explore the grassroots work that went into winning basic rights for americans and the repercussions that still resonate today. go to msnbc.com for tickets and we hope to see you there, just come out and see it. that's tonight. all in with jen psaki starts now. right now, the justice

system is moving when it comes to donald trump, but it is moving slowly. and we saw more evidence of that again today. while the wheels of justice turn at their own frustrating pace, we wanted to spend time talking to people who saw and heard what donald trump did in these various cases up close. juries may not get to hear from them just yet but we can hear from them right now. so that's what we will do tonight. former trump attorney michael cohen is standing by and so is former aide cassidy hutchinson. but i want to start in new york city and the tale of two trump trials we saw play out. first there was a major development in what is often shorthanded as the hush money case but it's actually, and this is important, and election interference case, given as a reminder, trump falsified business records to silence a star during his 2016 campaign donald trump sitting in the

courtroom today the judge, set the start date of his criminal trial for april 15th. that eight does come after a bit of a delay due to a massive document dump by the department of justice that happened days before the trial was supposed to start but we very now -- may see the first criminal trial of the former president in just three weeks. also in the new york civil fraud case, it was ruled that trump has 10 days to post a reduced bond. that's less than half of the full judgment that was originally due today. and according to the new york times, the $175 million bond is roughly the amount that trump's lawyers had argued was the maximum penalty he could have possibly owed. a potential sign according to the times, that the court believes the $454 million judgment was too steep. that's a pretty big reprieve for the guy who just this morning, woke up facing the very real possibility of a frozen bank account and seized assets. it could have included his westchester golf course, his florida social club, or his

beloved new york trump tower. what really struck me about all of this is just how ironic it is that a guy who was railed against a two-tiered system of justice repeatedly, has been afforded the kind of leniency that no one else would ever receive. i mean, of course there is a two-tiered justice system in this country, one in desperate need of reform. but it is definitely not tiered in the way that donald trump is describing. and he's implying that he's the one who is treated worse. when actually, the opposite is true. just consider, under new york state law, attorney general james could have enforced the nearly $500 million judgment against him last month but she granted him a 30 day grace period to front the money before the appeals court intervenes. i can keep going and i will, for a little bit because in florida, the trump appointed judge overseeing his documents

case has shown him such favoritism she's been rebuked twice by a higher court. she is, surprise surprise, moving at a snails pace right now and has yet to decide even when the trial will begin. also anyone else who knowingly and improperly retained classified documents would likely have faced travel restrictions or be forced to surrender their passport or even be put in jail but not donald trump. likewise in the election interference case from court hit the pause button so they could take up the absurd argument that a president should be able to do whatever he wants, even assassinate a political rival and be immune from prosecution. and while justice for trump is delayed indefinitely, hundreds of his supporters and people who listen to his lies have faced prison sentences,

hundreds of them but again, not donald trump. and back in new york, the trial date was circled on the calendar in the hush money case today, that's a big deal and the judge actually scolded the trump team and strongly rejected their arguments to delay but we were supposed to be covering the start of the trial today. and we are not. so trump is not the victim of a two-tiered system of justice in this country, he has been a beneficiary. there's one system for the powerful and wealthy and well- connected like trump and there's an entirely other system for everyone else. joining me now is michael cohen , former attorney for trump and a key witness in the manhattan case and the host of the political be down podcast also with us is kristi greenberg who was in the courtroom today. she's an analyst and the former deputy chief of the fdny criminal division. kristi, i want to start with you. you describe the judge as, quote, coming in hot, explain how the judge got this case back on track today? >> well, so in january, trump's legal team requested documents from the york and trump's legal team said we've got to dismiss the case, discovery violations for the prosecutors and

adjourned the trial. trump lost all of those motions decisively today because the law says the das office needs to disclose documents that are relevant and within their custody control and possession. and these documents were not relevant, the das office was asked how many are relevant and they said less than 300. but trump's team couldn't really answer, they said tens of thousands. they really didn't know. at the end of the day these were bank records that had nothing to do with the case. the special counsel reports had nothing to do with it, and then the question came, well, all of these documents from sdny, were those in control of the das office, is that your argument, you who were a prosecutor for nine years at sdny and he said, no, they want within our control essentially sdny was a third party, either trump or the das office could have asked for the documents at any time.

trump's team made a decision, they said, we are going to sit on our hands and ask at the last minute, why did they do that? they wanted to torpedo the trial date. it was a stunning hearing, the judge got really upset at various points and noted that these were serious allegations against not only the prosecutors but him as being complicit and basically said we are getting this train back on the tracks, we are setting a trial date not only did trump lose here, you sought yet again another lawyer for trump lose this credibility in front of the court and the public today. >> as kristi just outlined, we are at a point where the judge said no more of this. he set a trial date but we've been so focused on the delays and the timing, we lose focus on what this case is about. you are a key witness. tell us what this case is really about and what is a jury going to hear from you when the time finally comes? >> yeah, those are all questions i'm pretty sure that the manhattan district attorney prosecutors would prefer that i not get into, so i would

definitely like to kick that one off to kristi but if i can say something about what she just said which is accurate, the manhattan district attorney asks for these records from the southern district of new york, over one year ago. and what they received from the southern district of new york, they turned over to the prosecutors. so, i understand why the judge acted the way that he did, as it relates to todd blanche, and it was rightfully so. another issue is if you notice, what todd blanche in the entire trump team are so persistent at, is trying to attack me, my credibility, to try and figure out a way how to impugn my reputation for the sole purpose of either delaying this trial

further, or having knocked off the calendar altogether, which is just wishful thinking. >> well you will give us a preview of your testimony. you do know what this trial is about. to let me ask you something different. the judge last week basically rejected trump's motion seeking to bark your testimony from the trial, they tried to do that. what should trump fear most about april 15th? this trial date is set. what should he worry about? >> he should be worried about me, he should be worried about the manhattan district attorney, the district attorney of new york prosecutors, he should worry about the documentary evidence, he should be worried about all of the witnesses that will be coming into the trial, simply because as others have also appropriately put it, this is a very simple case. this is a case based upon documentary evidence and cooperating testimony. you know, these documents don't lie, and they paint a very specific picture, one which of

course does not bend to the benefit of donald trump. >> we are looking forward to watching it in three weeks and talking about it. kristi, we have a trial date now. i want to get into the heads of what the defense is here, the judge seemed skeptical of what they had to offer but there's a trial date, what are you anticipating that the actual defense may be at this time? >> so a few things. they are going to say that these has many payments to stormy daniels had nothing to do, the purpose of them had nothing to do with campaign finance violations, this is really about his family and melania not finding out, but that's a hard defense to make unless trump testifies. i don't know where the evidence would come from if not from donald trump himself. so i really think what you are going to see as michael points out, is there going to be up on michael on the stand or do their best to and really trying

to attack his credibility, the credibility of the witnesses. but i will say, the manhattan das office would not have brought this case if they didn't feel that not only did they have strong witness testimony that they felt the witness testimony was cooperated by documents. here, you have copies of signed checks that donald trump is signing from the office. there are documents showing these payments and they are clearly payments that the witnesses not just michael cohen but various others can explain what the purpose was. and just one thing to point out about the seriousness of this is that you know, sdny told the court in michael cohen and his testimony, that these were so serious, they threatened the fairness of elections and eroded our faith in the electoral process, so if the crime was serious for michael cohen , well it certainly serious for donald trump, the person who directed michael cohen to commit the crime for donald trump's benefit, so there's a lot of talk about this not being serious and this being the least serious of the cases. i disagree, this is election

interference i think we will see that in just a few weeks. >> a case of the two-tiered justice system. michael, you have been a lawyer, you've been in the courtroom, you thought about all the things that will come at you. a judge recently questioned your integrity suggesting that you committed perjury because you denied under oath that you committed tax evasion after he pleaded guilty to it back in 2018. what are you going to say if trump's lawyers raise this at trial to attempt to discredit you? >> yeah, once again, it goes right back into some substance of my testimony. look, i don't think that the judge accurately described, my attorney put it best when she stated that she believed and i'm going to paraphrase because she said it much more articulate than i'm going to, judge furman missed the boat on the entire decision. in fact, what he should have been looking at is not only the fact that the bureau of probation, the department of corrections, endorsed the termination of the supervised release, that he decided not

to, but more importantly, that there was even more here, the judge, out of everybody at the new york attorney general case, didn't find donald trump credible, didn't find don jr., eric, ivanka, alan weisselberg, he didn't find any of them credible but the one person that he did, and he went out of his way to say it, michael cohen told the truth. that's page 43 out of the 92 page decision. i think furman missed the boat here , by a mile. >> they will keep trying to discredit you, thank you so much, stay right where you are, we are going to be back in 60 seconds and i have more questions about the civil fraud case. we will be right back.

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what was unquestionably a bizarre and rambling press comments, donald trump made claims about his personal finance. among other things, he said he could afford to post the reduced bond requirement of $175 million claiming he will put it up very quickly. >> we will put up the cash or bond very quickly, securities cash or bond, whatever it is. >> can you give us more detail about the timing of when you plan to secure the bond, how exactly you are planning to pay the bond? >> as i said, i have a lot of cash. >> while he said he didn't need financial help from a foreign government, he notably defended his right to do so. michael cohen stuck with us, he's back with me now. michael, let's talk about what donald trump said today. he will post is reduced amount very quickly. what do you think, can he do that? >> look, it's certainly a whole lot less than the $500 million that he was looking for that he could not get, that his son,

eric, was crying on television, that this is something that nobody has ever had to do before. they were obviously unable to do it. do i think that he can raise the $175 million? the answer is, most probably. certainly like i said it's a lot less of the $500 million. there are things he could do. one of the things i was saying earlier today, is i wish that tish james had reached out to me. i would show her exactly where the money is for the $500 million, that she should have gone after a long time ago instead of giving him the opportunity of 30 days to raise this fund. >> well she still may go after it. >> sure, she certainly could. i will say that again, though 175 is a lot easier for him to raise than the 500. >> i was interested in what your thought was on what he said about taking foreign money. he said i think you would be

allowed to but i don't need to borrow money. what do you make of that response, what does it mean to you? >> yeah, you know donald trump is lying when his lips are moving. he knows that he's probably reaching out to foreign entities or foreign individuals, and so, he wants to just make sure that he's, you know, putting this out there, in advance of him actually doing it, because that's what he intends to do. he doesn't say things you know, just haphazardly. there's always a reason behind his insanity, and this is just another one of them. he couldn't get it domestically, and so he would rather try and reach out to anyone, anyone that will give him the money, as long as he doesn't have to post his own money. i mean, that's just who he is. and my prediction, he will wait until the absolute last day, day 10, before he posts cash, which it will be or a bond, and

we won't know where the bond was secured from. and i've said this on a ton of shows already, this is the part that we all as americans, need to be extremely, extremely careful of, because if it is a foreign entity, imagine, god for bid 1 million times that trump becomes president, that foreign entity will own the president of the united states of america. now, if he does get it domestically, could you imagine we also have a president who is significantly compromised for somebody who had done him the major favor of giving him whether it's $175 million, or $500 million. it places america's national security and it precarious situation. >> let me ask you this because i agree with you. this is a really important thing for people to understand. you are not advising him obviously but you do know who he has close relationships with. who do you think he is reaching

out to? >> are you talking about domestically or foreign. if it's domestic, take a look at the list, can we hit the domestic one first, just take a look at the membership list over at mar-a-lago. we already saw that he showed top-secret documents to an australian billionaire, there's plenty of billionaires that hang out with him over at mar-a- lago and each and every one of them sees donald trump as a fool, and they think they can get something out of him because most of these mega- billionaires, actually did get stuff out of him while he was the president. as far as foreign, i mean, look, he's talking about his love affair with kim jong un, his great respect for vladimir putin, his great friendship with xi jinping, you have mohammed ben solomont gave over $2 billion to jared kushner who's never been in the finance world before. i mean, there are plenty of

really wealthy autocrats out there that would be more than happy to loan donald money, especially if they know they can own him if he becomes the president. >> michael cohen , thank you for hanging with me tonight through the first part of our show. former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson is here in studio for her first live interview in months. we are back after a quick quick with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. break.on yours. my moderate to severe plaque psoriasis held me back... now with skyrizi, i'm all in with clearer skin. ♪ things are getting clearer...♪ ( ♪♪ ) ♪ i feel free... ♪ ♪ to bear my skin, yeah that's all me. ♪ ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ( ♪♪) with skyrizi, 3 out of 4 people achieved

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it's been nearly 2 years since former trump white house aide cassidy hutchinson gave her bombshell testimony and of all the things she testified about, the most jaw-dropping was a story she said she was told secondhand by a deputy chief of staff about how then president trump was so irate and insistent to go to the capital on january 6th but he longed for the steering will. and for years, trump and his allies have tried to rewrite the history of january 6th. and just in the past month, republicans have attacked hutchinson's credibility. house republicans site unnamed trump white house staffers who claim things that they didn't hear things about weapons in the crowd and he didn't lunge for the steering well and trump

posted, will she be prosecuted for what she did? what they failed to mention is the core of the testimony that trump wanted to go on january 6th was cooperated in that republican report i just mentioned. in fact, it's that a white house employee was told that trump was irate on the drive back to the white house and a transcript of the secret service agent driving trump that was reviewed by the new york times, the agent said while he did not seek trump reach for the steering well, he was insistent on going to the capitol. it was clear that he wanted to go. that's the point. joining me now is former trump white house aide, cassidy hutchinson. it's incredibly courageous that you speak out and i appreciate you being here tonight. so important for people to hear your voice. >> thank you for having me. >> it's been a while since we sat down together and in that time as i just mentioned, trump, a number of his allies

have attacked you personally. trump posted, will she be prosecuted for what she did and said? what is your response to that? >> you know, jan, i have been part of the trump administration for several years and i know when he starts to get nervous. i know that donald trump has to be nervous if not extremely frightened right now because what is happening, is he is deploying his most loyal allies on capitol hill to try to discredit not only my testimony but the entire january 6th investigation as a whole. the facts are out there and he doesn't want the facts out there because he doesn't want the american people to know what actually happened. he's hoping that his false narrative of what happened on january 6th is what the american people will believe,

heading up to the november election, it's really imperative that we keep speaking about the truth because the facts are the facts, and trump has tried to smear those with his deceit and his lies. what i will say to that, too, though, is when you mentioned the report, much of my testimony is cooperated but there also is one key piece in that the fact that he knew there were weapons in the crowd. his secret service agent testified that he was aware that's why they were not coming through the magnetometers. that's a key piece of evidence for the american people to know and for the jury hopefully, that will convene before the election because it speaks to the state of mind and it also is reported that only one hour after he got back from the ellipse, he called kevin mccarthy and said it was antifa attacking the capital but also said they were his people. so all of this being said, donald trump lashes out when he feels threatened and he's lashing out right now because he doesn't want the american people to know that he was responsible for the single most egregious attack on the democracy. >> there's no question, you

pose it as he feels threatened. it feels right to me. he also, though, there's a lot of people like yourself who have been speaking out who might be witnesses here. you feel that he is trying to publicly pressure you? >> you know, it's hard to climb into his psyche and it's not something i would love to do. i would anticipate it being a fairly dark place to be but what i will say to that, you know, pushing aside my case, there are times when i do get really discouraged. and i want to be honest about that. it is difficult, especially when there are some of my former friends and colleagues who i know, they know better and members of congress that i worked really closely with amplifying his lies. but i think when we look at the bigger picture, he's not just threatening this with me. he's threatening it with liz cheney, adam kinzinger, people who served on the january 6th committee, he's threatening other potential witnesses and other indictments that have come down potential jurors, judges, there are a large swath of americans that may need security going into this next

year because he has committed to unleashing political violence on these people. that's not what a leader does and we are expecting him to be the republican nominee again. he is there to support the people of america. not to silence them. you want a leader who empowers people and you don't lead through fear. >> sarah matthews, a friend of yours has been on the show and she said something that has stuck with me. i want to play that and talk to you about that, too. >> obviously, we look around and it's mainly the women and especially young women who are speaking out. so i would encourage maybe the men were twice my age who held higher positions than me who also know that donald trump is unfit to serve to speak out, and i know that we've got some time before election day.

i'm hoping that as we get closer and they see the threat that donald trump is and the very real chance that he could be president again that they will come forward. >> i think it's so important to say, both of you spoke out in your 20s, young women who believed, republicans, who supported the republican party, spoke out because it wasn't right, in your 20s. there are a lot of people including older men and she said it but i will repeat it, who have not. do you wish they would? >> i wish anybody would that was in the administration that maybe not even until january 6th the people that know donald trump's character. when we evaluate the politicians that we elect, policy is important, but especially in this period in american history, character takes precedent over policy positions. when you look at the election, there have been more people that have spoken out but with i take issue with is when they

speak out once or twice and expect that to be enough. >> then they are quiet then. >> exactly, trump world has an effective mechanism where they do hold a megaphone to the american people and they use that megaphone to spread conspiracy theories and lies and that's how they manipulate and seduce people to believe in what he says. we need people who were on the inside, to do the exact same thing but to speak truth to power of the lies that trump has done otherwise we might be tumbling towards a dictatorship. >> i hope you can stick around for one more block with me. i appreciate it. will be right back with cassidy hutchinson. stay with us. with us trying t m. i got lasting steroid—free remission... with rinvoq. check. and when my doctor saw damage,... rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief... lasting steroid—free remission... and visibly reduced damage. check. check. and check. rinvoq can lower your ability to fight infections, including tb. serious infections and blood clots, some fatal; cancers, including lymphoma and skin; heart attack, stroke, and gi tears occurred.

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hutchinson. i want to play an interview from last night with jim jordan. let's play that and talk about it on the other side. >> what i said were there were concerns about the 2020 election. i think americans would agree with that? >> no they don't. most people don't question the result. that's all i'm saying. they don't question whether biden won or not. right? right? most people don't question the outcome? >> right. >> i mean, that was an awkward silence there. i would say i sort of felt that for him. i really didn't but what does that tell you about this position and commitment to denying the events of january 6th and what does it tell you that more people should be doing by holding people campbell. >> that might be the first time i've seen jim jordan completely

silent when confronted with the truth. republicans are doing everything they can to make sure the truth is not out there. but there's going to be a point whether it's in this next election cycle or in the years to come, when the truth is going to catch up and the truth always prevails. and history will look poorly upon these people, who have spouted the conspiracy theories and lies in the way that jim jordan has but it's not just jim jordan. the entire house republican conference right now is a complete disgrace, not only to the republican party but to americans. as important as it is to make sure that donald trump never gets near the oval office again, we also need to focus on congress and to make sure that everybody in congress, who has been an

enabler of donald trump, people like jim jordan, elise stefanik, nancy mays, who have devoted their careers to this part of american history to become loyal foot soldiers of trump, they are lying to their constituents and they do not deserve to serve in the body. >> some of those people and many more, are afraid, you hear people have this conversation in congress, they say things quietly and they won't say it publicly. you are not afraid but if you are afraid, your speaking out. what do you say to people who are fearful of their political future, of even retribution from trump, about what this moment is about? >> for fear of the political future, i would say, basic political ambition and that's a complete disgrace. when you run for office, you take an oath to defend the united states constitution, you don't swear to protect an individual who's more concerned about protecting himself and keeping himself out of jail as donald trump is. i do want to acknowledge though, that there are very real security threats.

for me, that's not enough of a reason to not use my voice and the platform that i graciously have right now, to educate the american people on the dangers of donald trump. i believe every single member of congress in every single elected official and every person in the media has an obligation, a civic obligation to continue educating the american people, so that they understand that we are not testify single and a second trump term could look like. we are not over exaggerating his lack of character and how devoid he is of any emotion. we are telling the truth about all of this and if we do not keep doing this for the next eight months, and if he happens to be elected again, the shame and the blame in ways, falls on us because we need to be doing everything we can regardless of the outcome, in order to secure our country for our future generations but also our place on the world stage. >> i want to end with something more personal.

you talked recently about your father's admiration of donald trump as emblematic of the way that he as you say, manipulates his supporters. and you still consider yourself, you have conservative values, we've been speaking out but on policy issues you may have alignment with the people who are not speaking out. what should we understand about why these tactics are working with trump's base in terms of him convincing them that he is a billionaire, a successful businessman, he's going to defend them, what are people not understanding about why that works? >> donald trump has built his entire career from his early days as a quote unquote businessman, all the way through his term in office on a fagade that he is strong and powerful, that he is brilliant and he has all this money because he's accumulated it on his own. the antidote your speaking about is a moment that i shared in the book and also a

different public forms with my father. my father really looked towards donald trump as sort of the pinnacle of the american dream. he believed in donald trump and he believed that he was the person that he could learn from to be a better businessman. donald trump brought a whole new constituency of voters in 2016. they felt disenfranchised but also inspired them, you know, i voted for donald trump in 2016 because i also felt that i could believe in him. i felt he was there to actually lead the country through a different -- difficult period and i thought he was the person to do it. i look back now and i see how disingenuous he is. how he has manipulated and seduced people into believing his lies and he's done that so money -- so successfully but now we see the house of cards beginning to fall. he's avoided accountability his entire life. there are multiple criminal

cases and the federal government and the state governments, the outcomes are likely to rule in his favor. he doesn't want people to know who he actually is. that's the biggest threat to donald trump's ego but that's also the way that we get out from this moment. in order to get out, it's not just making sure that donald trump isn't reelected. we have to make sure that we welcome people back, and we do that by having conversations where people feel they are being listened to. we don't shame people out of their belief systems and they really do believe in this man and i do feel for them. i feel that they have this false sense of hope in somebody who is taking their money, their hard-earned money and the actually believe that he is there to serve them when in reality, donald trump doesn't want to end up in prison. so we need to make sure that when the day comes when donald trump is no longer a political

force, we work on having these productive conversations so we can come back stronger as a country. >> cassidy hutchinson, you define punching back at bullies verbally and not letting anyone cower you. thank you for speaking the truth. i'm sure it's been very difficult. it's very courageous of you to speak out. thoughts from me about former rnc chair ronna mcdaniel, that's next, after a quick break. (♪♪) you were made to dream about it for years. we were made to help you book it in minutes. but st. jude has gotten us through it. st. jude is hope for every child diagnosed with cancer

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you may have seen news over the last few days about the hiring of former rnc chair ronna mcdaniel, as an nbc news contributor. and some, mainly in the right- wing have made the comparison to others will come from government or politics into the media including me.

and that is a comparison i felt like i had to address. i got into public service for the same reason that many people do. to serve the american people. i worked on my first political campaign when i was 24 years old. when i was 28, i packed my bags moved to chicago to work for barack obama. he wanted to make the country a better place and i wanted to help them. i wanted to work on behalf of the american people to try and make their lives better, that's why i did campaigns and a few years later, i would do the same thing for president biden when i went to work for him in the white house. i was in the room for tough debates, difficult decisions, the messy and at times, incredibly grueling process of government. and that experience is something i am extremely proud to bring to this table and this network and there are many others who have followed a similar path who i have a great deal of respect for. but here's the thing. that kind of experience only matters and only has value to viewers, all of you, if it is. with honesty and with good faith.

those qualities are especially important right now at a time when our institutions are under attack and when our democracy is in danger. our democracy is in danger because of the lies that people like ronna mcdaniel have pushed on this country. to quote is cheney, ronna facilitated trump's corrupt they collect their plot and his effort to push pressure not to certify the election outcome. she called january 6th legitimate political discourse. look, this isn't about republicans versus democrats or read versus blue. this is about truth versus lies. service to the country versus service to one man committed to toppling our democratic system. that experience does not get us to a deeper understanding of anything in the public debate. we will be e right back. right . p people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that.

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every once in a while we have to take a step back and acknowledge just how absurd the state of our politics is. last night on the eve of an appearance in criminal court we've been talking about the show, donald trump is celebrating, quote, it is my great honor to be at trump international golf club in west palm beach, awards night, to receive the club championship trophy and the senior club championship trophy. i won both. biden's response? congratulations, donald, quite the accomplishment. join me now is al franken, i want to start there. it seems silly but it does reveal something about donald trump, that he feels the need to brag about golf tournaments at courses that he owns and it also seems that biden is willing to poke fun at him. there's a lot of ways to go at trump, what do you think about that approach? >> i think it was a sincere congratulations on winning the tournament and the senior tournament. i mean, why would anyone write that, other than donald trump?

you don't believe him, first of all. yeah. >> good question. i hear, he might be a little bit of a golf cheater, i hear, that's been written, so none of that is a surprise. a part of trump, even though that is absurd, he's bragging about these golf tournaments but a part of him thinks the strategy is winning, and some of it might be, after his hearing in manhattan today, he was asked if the conviction would cause him to lose the election and he answered that it could make him more popular. that sounds absurd, it's depressing to even entertain that but you are on the outside now but you've been in the senate, are you worried that some of that could be right? >> you know, with him, you never now. i mean, his people have stuck with him through thick and thin, and i actually think, i've heard a certain percentage of trump supporters say that if

he is a convicted felon, they will abandon him. so i don't think it's true, but you know, this is the weirdest guy and his followers following him in the weirdest places. >> that's very true. as you're watching this, and you see all the different messages the democratic party is throwing at him, there's a lot of material there, there's no question, there's the legal cases obviously his threat to abortion rights, the threat to the affordable care act. what should people be doing? there's almost too many to pick from. what is the right approach, in your view? >> oh door to door and knock on doors especially especially in blue areas and get out the vote. that's the right thing for people watching today, watching msnbc, who care about this election, get involved and do that. that's the right argument is.

i think that as these cases unfold and thank god, we actually have one coming to trial. i think it'll be very clear. you started your show talking to michael cohen , and i think it's pretty clear that this case was exactly that, a hush money case, and you know, i'm looking forward to, i don't know whether he will testify, i know his lawyers know that he lies a lot, but i hope he testifies because when he puts the hand on the bible, i want to see it burst into flames. >> he might. i think we would all be interested in seeing him testify. let me ask you about what is

going on, on the republican side of the aisle in congress. you know better than most people that people have all sorts of conversations behind the scenes. your republican colleague, former coley, lisa murkowski says she is open to becoming an independent. she said i just regret that our party is seemingly becoming a party of donald trump. how many republican senators do you think share that view but won't say it publicly? >> oh yeah. i think it depends what state you come from. i now, in some very solidly red states, who will share with me, they share that they do not like donald trump that they have no choice. now lisa in alaska, she won a three-way race, i think two races ago, and she has won as an independent, and i can see her abandoning the republican party because she can do it, in that state. >> let me ask you before i let you go and before we turn it over to rachel maddow about the democratic side because you now have the perspective on what everybody is working on. what

should their focus be. i know you said doorknocking, that's an important thing. what are you worried about most and what should the focus be, going into november? >> well, i think it's a very, it's going to be a tough year. it'll be a very close election, and i won my first race by 312 votes and we saw 11,779 in georgia. so it's going to be these battleground states, and those are the states that we have to focus on, and we have to so it's wisconsin.ave to it's michigan. it's pennsylvania. we know what it is, right? >> we do certainly. senator al franken, you're a testament to every vote counting. thank you for joining me. that does it for me tonight. "the rachel maddow show" starts right now. hi, rachel. >> hi, jen. thank you very much, my friend. much appreciated. >> thank you. >> thanks to you at home for