further away from the pier because the ship went over the top of the dolphins and physically struck the bridge. >> yeah. sal, thank you very much. we're out of time. again, this port is a major u.s. shipping port. having it shut down is going to be very disruptive. there is also a major transport lane now shut down because the bridge collapse. the i-695 corridor, 40% of the country's gdp goes up and down the northeast corridor so that is major as well. that is going to do it for me today. a lot of news in this hour. a lot more news to come. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it is 4:00 in new york. for an ex president facing 88 felony counts, just weeks away from becoming the first ever

ex-president for charges, and a judge saying that words do indeed have consequences. donald trump is now under a gag order in the criminal case brought by the manhattan d.a. alleging a cover-up. the young barring trump from attacking or directing others to attack potential witnesses, jurors, prosecutors and court staff. and the ex-president is allowed to make statements about district attorney alvin bragg. if his ruling, the judge said that the need to protect the integrity of the process from the defendant with one of the biggest platforms in the world. as trial neared it pushed him to issue the cord. quote, given the eve of trial is upon us, it is without question that the imminency of the risk of harm is paramount. the rules was issued hours after trump made two statements that would arguably have violated the gag order. times records in a rambling and angry post on his social media site on tuesday, he made a

reference to michael cohen, claiming without explanation that his former fixer, was, quote, deaf. and referred to one of mr. bragg's prosecutors in pejorative terms and proving the point judge makes in his ruling that donald trump's rhetoric is not just trump exercising his first amount rights and responding to allegations and attacks from political opponents, as his lawyers claim. and we should point out, he's not running against any of the prosecutor bhoz have charged him. the judge said that entertainments went far beyond defending himself against attacks by public figures. hi statements were threatening, inflammatory and denigrating and the targets range from local and federal officials sh court and court staff and prosecutors and staff assigned to the cases and private individuals including grand jurors performing their civic duties. such inflammatory extra jurd ishl statements rix risk the

orderly administration of this court. wow. so we start today with some of our most favorite reports and friends. with me at the table, legal correspondent lisa ruben is here. and also joining us, once again, former top official from the department of justice and legal analyst andrew weissmann. and former senator and co-host of how to win 2024 podcast, our dear friend claire mccaskill is here. you should just park it here and stop thinking you're going to be anywhere else at 4:00. i don't want to go one more minute without saying we should never feel normal. someone who was the country's president and someone who would like to be given that privilege again rupts such an imminent -- judge luteig's testimony on january 6 is clanging in his head. donald trump is a clear and present danger. clearly the young thought he was a clear and present danger to his trial. >> i think if you put up the last slide that you just were

reading from, it -- that is exactly what i was thinking. that it is so chilling that you have yet another judge saying about -- it is not somebody who not only was the former president, but is now the leading republican candidate, that this is what the country has come to. when history is written, they will look at this in terms of a real fight for the soul of our country. and in terms of what the judiciary has had to do so stand up to a real attack on what it means to be american, what is means to have a rule of law in this country. judge marchan should be louded for doing this. he said, i do not need to wait, essentially until the violence

has occurred to take action. and it is also notable that he issued this not as to all parties. he issued this gag order as to the one person before him who has shown that he has the propensity to do this and has done this in the past. that is donald trump. and that is the exclusive scope of this gag order and that is the person who used to be the president of the united states. and that is a sign of where we are as a country and what this election means to this country. >> you know, andrew, i worry so much that talking about political violence can now fall along partisan lines. why isn't the concern of political violence a bipartisan concern? why doesn't everyone see the danger and the direct line between what trump said and what his followers do. i want to introduce another participant in this

conversation. this is steven aires testimony before the select committee. >> i was hanging on every word he was saying. everything he was putting out, i was following it. if i was doing it, hundreds of thousands or millions of other people are doing it. or maybe even still doing it. it is like, he just said about that, you know, you got people still following him and doing that, who knows what the next election could come out, and they could end up being down the same path we are right now. just don't know. >> so because when that happened live, we weren't where we are on the calendar, it was the first part of the testimony that i hung on. right. but now that we are seven months out from elections, it is the last part of it that haunted me. would knows what the next election could come out, you no he. it could end up being down the same path we are right now. i mean, i just don't foe. for trump, and on the right, they're one and the same and lisa constantly points that out

for us because we're she's at the court where trump is making his direct line communication to his supporters. but it does seem that the judge is very aware of the moment in which he is providing over a criminal trial of donald trump and i wonder how you assess sort of our state of ready iness for that to happen, andrew? >> so, i think that we are dealing with people who have a view that the end justify the means. even when we are talking about political violence, about threats of violence. even when we talk about what happens to nancy pelosi's husband and people can't get -- bring themselves to condemn that. and even the threats to ruby freeman and shay moss for doing their job. threats to grand jurors for doing their job. i had the same view when i was working in the mueller investigation, about foreign interference in our election.

it was so incredible to me that you wouldn't think about that as an american. and it was not a political issue. it wouldn't be, oh, well, foreign interference is fine as long as you're helping me. that is what we've evolved into. where there is no principle at stake. i do think though, in terms of the court, that we -- in terms of the narrow picture, that we have a judge who knows exactly what he's dealing with, and is taking the appropriate steps. i should also say that unlike other cases we've seen, i think you're going to see some very good lawyering on both sides and that is the way it should be in a democracy with a rule of law. and regardless of what the defendant wants to say and claim, there is going to be due process in that courtroom and that is what judge marchan and

the defense team is going to do. so in many ways it should be people who believe in the american justice system, i think this should be a shining example of what we can do in this country and affording defendants rights and we'll see what happens and what the jury decides in terms of whether the state has met its burden. but i think that this has all signs of being what our system is supposed to be about. >> i want to deal with the michael cohen of this. he's just released a statement thanking the judge for the gag order. is said this, quote, i want to thank judge marchan from impoeszing the gag order as i've been under assault from donald maga supporters but he will seek to defy the gag order by getting others to do his bidding regardless of the consequence. let me read. i'm going to cherry pick this. it has a racist attack.

and so i'm going to -- i'm going to read around trump's missive. maybe i won't. he attacks everybody involved. and this is what michael cohen is talking about. he can't be restrained. he didn't have any impulse control. and if he thinks there will be a political benefit, he'll violate any legal remedy in front of him. >> he will. and nicolle, i want to bring one other legal remedy that the judge has imposed. we were talking about the show started an i compared today's zbag order to the one that was upheld by the d.c. circuit case. that is decision where the d.c. circuit pulled back on judge chutkan's gag order. the language here is almost identical now approved with the d.c. circuit, but there is a provision for jurors and

prosfektive jurors. that is necessary because in the new york system, a defendant has a statutory right to know names of the jurors before them. and while judge mar chan has a separate order providing for anonymous jury selection vis-a-vis the public, while the order prevents the dim em nation of certain personal information, it is not sufficient to prevent extra judicial speech targeting jurors and exposing them to an atmosphere of intimidation. the proposed restrictions relating to jurors are narrowly tailored for that result. and this is a person who is a former president and the presumptive republican nominee and we're talking about them and only them and their capacity to essentially torment and indeuce fear in the hearts of jurors to decide whether or not they have committed 34 separate fell counts in the state of new york.

that is unfathomable to us even a couple of years ago. the idea that we're reading this now. it is not normal and should never be normal. i'm sorry this is the third or fourth time it is been normalized but we have to keep saying that and i'm glad you do. >> claire, i broke myself of the habit of saying where is -- fill in the blank, a one time normal republican. but i'm going to break my own practice of not doing that. i mean, you're a former prosecutor, where is john cornyn and theys of violence that they don't distinguish. paul pelosi is not the only person that was threatened by the crazy things that donald trump said. the testimony of brad raffensperger and someone is going to get shot and rusty bowers. what are we doing here that we're just careening toward a

criminal trial where the jurors are already in the view of judge at grave risk? >> you know, it is hard, i struggle with grasping that our country elected it man in the first place. then, j-6 happened. and everything that went along with that. and he then is indicted and repeatedly. and investigated and indicted again. repeatedly. then he does this, which is so despicable and such a spit in the face of anyone who loves our constitution and the rule of law. and i think that the people that i served with, the republicans, are taking a grave risk. i took some time today, nicolle, to read through the list of the

most heinous offenders on january 6. the ones that took an electric shock to the neck of a police officer. the ones that gouged at the police officer's eyes. the ones that body slammed police officers into marble statues, vendering them unconscience. those are the people that he opened his rallies with, and promised to pardon. and i would say to john thune and john cornyn, you're wanting to lead the united states in the senate, that is a great responsibility. the risk you are taking by not speaking out against this man is one that history will pay attention to. because if he's willing to pardon the people that did that, really, you know what he's capable of doing. they know. and the idea that they're sacrificing all of that, rather than leading their party out of the wilderness, they're

cowering. they're cowering behind trees. saying, please don't look at me. yeah, i don't want to say i endorse him, but if i have to, if i don't my party will be mad at me. claim your party and your values and integrity and stand up to this guy. it shouldn't be this hard, nicolle. >> and i think what is disturbing and what we have to stay clear eyed about, is that the information channels are now so hermetically sealed. and we're talking about donald trump tweeted, truth social or is that a verb. we're covering the things he actually said. and what is so, i think, disturbing, is that the things that he said and does are either shielded, or edited, or contextualized for his own supporters and so even trump and his own words, trump in his own

ghastly horrific threats toward witnesses and in this criminal trial, isn't necessarily what his supporters see. and so, claire, i think that you always do a good job of marrying these two braids, these two toxic threats of accountability for trump, which i think by this point the idea that somehow he is being treated unfairly, he's had more delays and benefits more from an abundance of deference on everybody else for trump's conduct and posed defrnence, there won't be any trials. we'll talk to andrew in a minute. but it is the other half, the violence that is out in the open. you see the mill -- stephen miller would nod at the gems in the oval office, can't we shoot them. now it is trump. let me read what was in the gag

order. in 2022, the nypd threat and protection unit logged 483 threat cases only one of which involved threats to the d.a. in '23 they logged 377 cases 89 involved threats to the district attorney and his family or employees of this office. the first such threat in '23 was logged on march, the day that he was saying that he was about to be arrested and called for his followers to protest and take our nation back. he has used those criminal proceedings, to turn his base into human shields. and i guess to your point, claire, why do you think they keep going along with this? >> i think they want the power. they are too afraid of what lies on the other side of standing up to him. they see where bob corker is and jeff flake, where liz cheney is,

they see where mitt romney is. and they don't want to be there. they want to be loved. by the people in their party. but the people in their party are not being led. you know, i i've said this before on sh show, everybody thinks that todd akin didn't get elected in 2012 when i had a tough election and by all measures maybe shouldn't have won 2012 based on what my state was feeling at the time. todd aiken didn't lose what he said, but he lost because of what republicans toad up to him when he said it up. and then republicans realize maybe this isn't right, maybe this isn't a good ing this. and that is what is going on here. you have such a lack of people in the republican party that are holding office right now that are willing to say the honest part out loud. and that is he got the people on january 6 to attack police

officers and to break windows and destroy our nation's capitol. and you don't think that any of those same people would be willing to hurt the people involved in this trial? of course they would. of course they would. and some ways that is less brazen than what they did on january 6. so it is, like i say, i think these folks are taking a huge risk. i don't know how they sleep at night. i really don't. >> andrew weissmann, i want to talk about something you write about today and that is it contradicts what i just said, that federal trials in the election interference case are unlikely. your thoughts? >> well, i do think that they are unlikely. i wrote a piece with my wonderful colleague at nyu, ryan goodman, about what the supreme court in the upcoming -- sorry, april 25th argument, that is the presidential immunity argument that will be heard, what they

could do to expedite that ruling. there is nothing that we could do about the fact that they scheduled this so late and we take them to task in this piece in the atlantic about this scheduling. but we point out that donald trump only has one legitimate interest in connection with the only issue before the court, which is presidential immunity. what is not before the court is the propriety of the trial date. that is not before the court. even though they act like it is. the only issue is that you have someone saying, i'm immune from prosecution. that should be heard expeditiously. the government and person making that claim have an interest in having that decided quickly. because if you are saying that you are immune from criminal prosecution, what you are saying is that every day that i'm under indictment, that i'm suffering the -- those charges. and donald trump has said that the gag orderish issued in d.c.

that just issued today is interfering with his able to campaign. so what we're saying is that the court should actually ask, on the 25th, donald trump's lawyers, what is your legitimate interest to have this delay? it can't be oh, i just don't want to go to trial. that is not a legitimate interest that the court could in any way say, that is fine. the issue is just about this issue, the scheduling of it. but the only hope of getting this case to trial before election is if the court issues a prompt decision. they need to press counsel, that there is no legal argument for delaying this decision. because that is going to be they are play, is trying to have the supreme court takes a long as possible and we're trying to point out that that is an illegitimate argument for what is about to be heard in the supreme court. >> you get the last word. >> i've been thinking about the timing of that gag order today.

sometimes we hear from the judge and we hear from him in rulings that actually happen days before. because he waits to release them. this one, was written today and signed today an that is not accidental. it is not just because of michael cohen. it is not just because of what trump said about one of the d.a. lawyers yesterday. trump took on judge's own daughter today. while she's not covered by this gag order and i agree that the lawyers in this case is going to be very good. i keep jokingly call it the battle of the susans, in the d.a. office, and i still ask myself who would take this case. who could take a case for someone in their social media communications threatens the daughter of a judge because of some loose association she has with the political party that you're opposing. that, to me, is a person that, well, trump is going to get great corruption, i don't know

that i would make that same decision and certainly he has great lawyers here. but i keep struggling with who would -- >> the conduct. >> who would do that when your client is out there, not just attacking witnesses, not just attacking lawyers, but attacking the judge's own kid. these people have kids too. >> it is how he rolls. thank you for being here with us. claire sticks around. when we come back, the big the reproductive right case since the over turning of the right to an abortion. it was before the court today. oral arguments on the availability of mifepristone, been on the market and approved for 20 years. and plus a catastrophic chain of events leading to a major bridge collapse. we're right now where six people remain unaccounted for. how is unfolded and how many lives were likely saved from disaster and tragedy.

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that's why progressive makes it easy to save with a commercial auto quote online so you can take on all your others to-dos. already did. see if you could save at progressivecommercial.com. the most consequential case since oriole arguments focused on whether it should have been before the justices at all. case challenging the availability of mifepristone began in amarillo, texas, because anti-abortion activists

thought a federal judge there would be receptive to her claims. and he was. but today it was met with deep skepticism from even the conservative wing of the supreme court who seems disinclined to decide with the far right organizations seeking to curb access of this fda approved drug. questions about whether the plaintiffs should be able to bring the case at all surfaced early in oral arguments. here is justice kagen. >> could i ask a quick question about the merits. you open your brief with a somewhat arresting statement. to the government's knowledge, this case marks the first time and i'm going to say is it the first time, is it the only time, any court has restricted access to an fda approved drug by second guessing fda's expert judgment about the conditions required to assure that drug's safe use. is it still the only time? >> that is still to our only knowledge the only time that a court has ever done that.

>> only time ever. the doubts about the anti-abortion doctors do not have the standing to do so was echoed oddly by justice neil gorsuch who pointed out that the supreme court has never issued a kind of injunction that the anti-abortion act shrifts are seeking. a point that was highlighted by justice ket afrpgy brown jackson. >> there is a claimed injury and the remedy that is being sought. they're saying because we object to having, to be forced to participate in this procedure, we're seeking an order preventing anyone from having access to these drugs at all. and i guess i'm trying to understand how they could possibly be entitled to that given the injury that they have alleged? >> i agree just jacks and i do think it is relevant to standing. there is a profound mismatch between the claimed injury and

the remedy, would alter the use of mifepristone and affect women all around the nation. >> all of us, everywhere. just referencing this broad impact that would have on women's access to reproductive health care. and medication accounts for the vast majority, 63%, of all procedures. and given the pretext of bringing this case at all, if the justs side with those seeking to limit access to mifepristone, it has the potential to erode any remaining public trust in the nation's highest court and open the door to challenging any other drug that is fda approved that anybody has a objection to, including fertility drugs and vaccines. completely disrupting access to health care and drugs that every

american is now used to and relies on. joining our coverage, senior editor and host of the podcast diane listic is with us and dr. kavita patel. claire is still with us. what have we learned today? >> yeah, i think we learned that almost completely across the partisan political, ideology board, this was a dumb case that there was just no plausible claim to standing, that the claims -- standing that these physician have lashed themselves to was the notion that they have to give mifepristone, but some other doctor might give some patient mifepristone and that patient might have a rare adverse effect and that patient might then end up on their table at which point they might then have to do something. and that is a causal chain that

has so many like them, that they even lost, as you said, just gorsuch and it was evident, i think they lost clarence thomas. >> and i mean, that sounds like a setup of a joke, how bad was it. it was so bad, they even lost clarence thomas. what should we infer from it. because i don't want to overread what your describing in terms of today's arguments. >> i think what we infer is that this is one of a deeply embarrassing cases that seem to originate in texas and come up through the fifth circuit and the courts think they are the deciders and we've seen a long pattern of these cases including sb-4, that texas immigration bill, that caused so much of a ruckus last week at the court. that there is a lot of judicial bodies out there that want to force the supreme court to move further and faster and the supreme court doesn't seem to be having it. i think the other thing we could

infer and this is the scary bit, is that we had at least two justices who were kind of chomping at the bit to talk about the comstock act that is 120 some years old and if they have their drudgers, we could see a future case in the not so distant future in which that law, which was, as i said, an if anti-pornography and anti-obscenity law defunct, but it could be abortion nationwide for everyone and that is chilling that is a conversation being had. >> and i want to make sure i understand your expert analysis. it is not that the court softened its view on abortion. it is that they questioned the specifics of this case belonging before the court. it doesn't necessarily mean mifepristone is safe forever. it just means -- tell me if i have that right? >> no, that is exactly right.

and i think we heard spatterings of the justices saying come back when you have a plaintiff as opposed to one of these kind of grumpy doctors and we might entertain this. come back when you've got it tethered to the comstock act and we might entertain it. come back when things are a little more settled, when donald trump is elected and the comstock act becomes the law of land and we might entertain it. i didn't see this as the closing of the gates on a mifepristone challenge. i saw it as the opening of a lot of really scary opening windows for the future. >> yeah. thank you for that. first of all, for just calling it a dumb case. was really more claire and -- more clear and clarifying. and dr. patel, this incredible moment, where we're covering the

legal and political fallout from a right that american women have had for 50 years, it was so set minute minds of voters and families and men and women that is wasn't even a real voting issue any more. people took it for granted and i though it really was vexing to the women who fought for that right to begin with has been taken away and regardless what happened in court today from what dahlia expertly called a dumb case, access to health care and reproductive health care is still very much at risk in our country. >> yeah, it is at risk not just in the 14 states that have made it this incredibly hard to -- nonexistent, but the rest of the country. we've mentioned that they've been receiving medication aborgs which is a significant increase from before. that is just a reflection of people are going to neighboring states and places, but even in

those neighboring states, it is not as if we have clinics and doctors sitting around doing nothing. this is on an already stressed system and we talked about how doctors like me are pretty risk averse. we don't like it when there is what seems like kind of confusing legal territory. so all of this has done, even though it feels like one step forward in some ways on this legal standing issue and i've learned more law than i thought i would need to having worked on the hill in the last days alone. you think this is created enough doubt in even in prescribers minds, do i want to do this because i could be tied to some sort of liability and that is sadly where we're at right now. so this is real health care being compromised in real time and it is leaving not just women, but leaving households, a majority of the people who seek abortions and early termination already have children. and these are people with full time jobs and people that we know depend on health care and people like me who deliver that

health care. without the politics, without the legal scrutiny but that has since entered and i want to say one more thing since i'm a policy person. all we need is an fda commissioner that puts into place access restrictions and you don't need another court case. we could see this unfold very soon with a different kind of fda commission. that is all it takes to change. >> i want to turn to that. i want to turn to what the landscape looks like and put this into larger perspective. i have to sneak in a quick break. nowhere is going anywhere. we'll all be right back. we'll all be right back. so go ahead, live unfiltered with the one and only sotyktu, a once-daily pill for moderate to severe plaque psoriasis, and the chance at clear or almost clear skin. it's like the feeling of finding you're so ready for your close-up. or finding you don't have to hide your skin just your background. once-daily sotyktu was proven better, getting more people clearer skin than the leading pill.

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(♪♪) will this institution survive the stench that this created in the public perception that the constitution and its reading are just political acts? >> i -- i don't see how it is possible, if people actually believe that it is all political, how will we survive? how will the court survive? >> that was haunting and it was prescient. that was justice sotomayor dack in 2021 prekicking the crisis in confidence that would be fall the court if they took this act of stripping away constitutional rights for the first time ever after a legislative body looking at who has been appointed to the

court passed a law to do so. we're back. claire, this still remains the m.o. and you know this movement and its actors because they are very vibrant in your state. they're very vibrant in texas. and i think i want to be careful to cover this as a legal set back for movement. the movement is undaunted. >> yeah, let's be very clear about what this was. aaron hawley, josh hawley's wife was the lead lawyer in this case. the man who is the only judge in this district, in texas, gave money to her husband when he ran for the senate in 2018. then they went down and filed this case in his district because he's the only judge in that district. this is foreign shopping. this is lem slating by filing lawsuits. this is a political screed mass

car aiding as a legal issue and the way you could tell that is a first year law student would have seep the problem with standing when this case was heard at the trial court level. then you have the appellate court, the fifth circuit, which they got the case after this obviously very politicized federal judge, did what he was expected to do when they filed case there. they were not allow the pill to be illegal, but they thought there should be more restrictions. but they didn't rule on the standing. an then it comes up to the supreme court, and it is pretty clear that the supreme court is going, this is a little embarrassing, this is a joke. there is no standing in this case. aaron hawley went to yale law school. she clerks for justice roberts. she knows how tenuous the standing is in this case. it is a political screed. and what they've done, and a

bonus for them as dahlia pointed out, they have smoked out the two most conservative members and say now we have a knew one, lets go back and try the comstock act. this is what the republicans have said they are against, legislation from the court. most states have not passed that. but they're not going to give up until they get the court to do it and that is what is so scary, i think, for most women in america. and the men who love them. >> i mean, claire, let me stay with you on that. the challenge of covering what is happening to women right now, at the same time that we cover this political earthquake, the tet onic plates, i think under the country have jolted in a way that make clear that the activists are way outpacing the elected officials on right.

the activists who have championed these things are way ahead of and steering the policy at a moment when the politics are nowhere near where the fringe and extremists are. what do you make of how this issue and the endangering ivf, and if you take this drug away, aborgs are actually less safe. the reality is so detached from the politics and the policy and lawsuits. how do you see that shaping up seven months ahead of an election? >> well, i think that republicans are hope tag women forget. that the vast majority of women in this country do not think that the government should be in this decision. they do not think that the court should be siding with what is medically safe and what isn't. and remember that the finding that the fda had made this drug -- approve this drug, was

challenged by an anonymous blog in a study that had been retracted. there was no scientific basis for this joke of judge a down in texas, this hawley contributor, this foreign shopping specialty down in texas, there was no basis for him to find that. so it is -- it is frightening, but people need to buckle up. because they're not going away. they do not want any abortion to be legal. they are going to go after ivf, they're going after contraception. when i said that two years ago, you should heard of everyone scamming at me. it is going to happen. they're going to keep going. and eventually their going to get their position if real political trouble because i don't think this country is going to stand for it. >> dr. patel, the moment, this moment of out of the mainstream anti-democratic policies and politics on the right has put into the political conversation people who nev wanted to be

there. you're different, you're a policy person and a medical doctor. but what is the private conversations among doctors and physicians? >> oh, i mean, this is like a very common conversation among my colleagues. that there are -- they're afraid of the institutions that we're working, people who i work with and who i have a deep respect for who are -- they just want to deliver health care. nobody wants to get into the political fights. it is been kind of funny, people have said to me, look, i never really even thought about what party i align with. but it seems like if i want people to get health care, then people assume i'm a democrat. and i said, that is -- one has nothing to do the other. but i think they're looking at the headlines that we're talking about right now and saying, yes, it does. it is -- where you live matters and your zip code matters and what you are think your hospital administrator is aligned with.

a majority of physicians in the united states are employed and we have a boss. and that 'used to be someone who would stay out of what we thought was best and safe medical decisions. that is no longer a boundary that exists. that is very frightening to my colleagues who don't have the power to come on tv and say, this is what i stand for, because they're afraid. just like women are, to seek care. they're afraid. >> appreciate all of you for giving all of those people voice today. and for your expertise. dahlia and claire and dr. kavita patel, thank you. to be continued. an update on the cargo ship that struck a bridge overnight. the search and rescue efforts are very much ongoing. we'll bring you the latest, next. you the latest, next

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the strength of these families is absolutely remarkable. and we want to let them know that we are here with you every single step of the way. we are praying for you now and always. this is very much still a search and rescue mission. we are still actively looking for survivors. we know and that's the pledge we've made to these families. >> that was maryland governor moore in just the last hour on the massive recovery, search and rescue, i'm sorry, in baltimore after a bridge collapsed

overnight after a shipping vessel lost power and crashed into one of the pillars. as of now, six construction workers who were on the bridge at the time of the collapse remain missing. two workers have been rescued. incredibly, it appears there were no cars on the bridge at the time of the collapse. in part due to the ship alerting local authorities that the potential danger just minutes before the crash. president biden has committed to sending all federal resources available to help rebuild the bridge and get the port running again. joining us at the table, tom winter. tell us what we know. >> a couple of different things they'll look into. from the video, it appears at two points, the lights go off. within two minutes of that or approximately two minutes after that, the vessel goes into the ship. if you were to back this video up and then speed it up because

of of course it's a container ship, it's not going that fast. it hits about 8.6 knots. it's constantly transmitting speed, heading, what type of ship it is and it can be picked up by all the surrounding ships. by the coast guard. and by private individuals. when you look at this, there's a lot of data as far as where it was positioned and what was happening and you see the ship kind of make a pretty hard turn towards star board and perhaps that's at a time when they've lost propulsion. a ship needs power to steer. just based on a prior career involving the shipping industry and speaking to experts about this. so they would have been in a position where i think they would have known pretty quickly they were in a tough spot. it's unusual because according to the information on the

internet as far as the manufacturer of the ship, the shipbuilder is hyundai industries, engine company is bmw. these are very prominent shipbuilder companies. pretty common components. not a lot of those ships in the world. so i think the industry is going to be paying close attention to this. we know from our own reports that this vessel was involved in an incident in 2016. could this be tied to that? that's the ntsb's job. those are the questions they're going to be asking. >> take us through this dramatic sort of final moments. it's pretty extraordinary because of the time it happened, thank god more people weren't hurt. >> what we know from public officials is at some point, the people on board the ship realize

they have the problem. the issue of may day, and of course, this is a very busy port. it's heard by authorities and they shutdown traffic as far as coming on to the bridge. as you see the lights go out on this vessel, there's still tractor trailer trucks come across, and vehicles. at some point, that stops before this dramatic and unfortunate end. obviously the workers weren't able to get off of it. the ship would have been sounding a collision alarm to alert them there was a serious problem. so i think when you look at it, this is something that could have been a whole lot worse and certainly if this happens at 1:30 in the afternoon or certainly during a rush hour commute, it could have been

been ooechbl more horrific. >> it evoked memories of the big earthquake. >> same incident happened in tampa with another ship. the weather was a different story in tampa. so i think the fact it was clear here today points to a catastrophic mechanical malfunction it appears initially. >> your brilliance at this early point, stay on this for us. >> of course. >> thank you. in the next hour, deadline white house officials warning of a quote new era in which the people who make our democracy function, election officials and workers, are under unprecedented threat. have that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. t story after break. don't go anywhere. that means less stress for you. >> woman: thanks. >> tech: my pleasure. have a good one. >> woman: you too. >> tech: schedule today at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ i have moderate to severe plaque psoriasis. thanks to skyrizi i'm playing with clearer skin.

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yes, our election workers and ourselves have been around enormous threats and scrutiny over the last few years but on the flip side is that you have so many people signing up to be election workers and proudly saying i want to defend democracy. we've recruited tens of thousands of new election workers since 2020 in michigan and everyone i speak with say they signed up because they know democracy is under threat and they want to be on the front lines of defending it. >> hi, again, everybody. that outcome is really good to hear and speaks to the power of american democracy and unity even as it's under threat. the frightening new reality for those administering our elections is something we can't ignore. we heard it from ruby freeman

and shaye moss. death threats forcing them not to leave their homes for fear of their safety all for doing their jobs based on manufactured lies. because of the lies spread about how the 2020 election was done, lies that exist and spread to this day, those who run our elections are facing an unprecedented threat in 2024. yesterday, the department of justice announced that 20 individuals have been charged so far in their investigations into threats made against election workers in recent years. john keller, who headed the doj's election threats task force, held a press conference. >> the department will not tolerate any unlawful efforts to intimidate or harm the thousands of civil servants who toil day in and day out, one election cycle to the next, to insure that every qualified individual has the opportunity to exercise their most fundamental right.

the right to vote. this new era in which the election community is scapegoated, targeted, and attacked is unconscionable and in addition to the highest toll taken on individual victims, to experienced election officials vital to the effective administration of our elections. >> just hours before he gave that press conference, an ohio man named joshua russell was sentenced to two and a half years in prison for threatening to kill katie hobbs. she's now arizona's governor. according to federal authorities russell said in a 2022 voice mail to hobbs, quote, you have a few short months to see yourself behind bars or we will see you to the grave. you are a traitor to this nation and you will suffer the bleep consequences. keller expressed how this type of speech has no place in america. >> this country is founded not only on the premise of free and fair elections but also on the idea that public scrutiny of

government authority is not only desirable, it is necessary. debate on public issues should be robust and may well include veement and caustic attacks on government officials but death threats are not debate. debt threats do not contribute to the largers case of ideas. death threats are not first amendment protected speech. death threats and any threats of violence are criminal acts and they will be met with the full force of the department of justice. >> that you even have to say that is where we start the hour. former lead investigator is here with me at the table, host of the fast politics podcast and special correspondent for "vanity fair." and back with us, former republican congressman, msnbc political analyst, david jolly. i jotted all that down, tim, because it feels like the kind

of red line that we may continue to refer back to in terms of how doj sees this. death threats are not free speech. the reason you have to say that and the reason it's a top story is because the death threats emanate from the fury and rage that is a by-product from the lie that were problems in the 2020 election. it's the top story again because we we get into 2024, it's at the trump base. >> exactly. words matter. they have real consequences. we saw throughout the course of the select committee investigation that people take the former president and his enablers' words, very seriously. many of them came to washington because he invited them. that was their perception. so this drum beat that the election was stolen and that there is persistent fraud,

people assume that that is true when it isn't and then they look for scapegoats. they look for people that turn the wheels in those elections. there's hardly a more dramatic example than regular people that facilitate our elections. they sit at the table. verify id. give you the ballot and sticker. those are just regular people. there's no deep state apparatus that runs elections. there are secretary of state that are elected to supervise the process, but it's largely conducted by just regular folks. so the criticism of them rit large and manifestations against them is chilling and it's all a product of this rhetoric that somehow there is fraud or there's persistent problems. there isn't. but saying there is leads to these kinds of really heinous

threats. >> tim, there's never been and i was still in republican politics after 2000, when the highly regarded jim bakker and the beloved ex-president jimmy carter were asked to investigate voter fraud. do you know what they found? no voter fraud. >> yeah. >> did your investigation get at the root of this? is it all, because trump claimed vote r fraud in '16 after he won and he sent some guy from kansas out looking for imaginary voter fraud after he won. he did the same for the state of texas, a state where he won. was this all a vanity project? was this all predicated on needing things to be bigger? what is the genesis of this? >> yeah, it's a good question. i think largely the answer to that is yes. it is former president's inability to ever admit a loss

despite evidence confirming the loss. i think it was exacerbated in 2020 by the pandemic. we voted differently in 2020 because of covid. there was more electronic voting, more absentee voting. we to that really well in this country. in state after state after state that have done audits have only reenforced that the ways in which we voted were the most secure in history. chris krebs ran the organization, monitoring elections, declared it was the most secure and reliable election result in history inside of the former president's own administration. so while the pandemic main gave people reason to suspect these new patterns were susceptible to fraud, there's been no evidence they were infected by fraud. quite the contrary. despite all the attention we've

only reenforced we do this well in this country. we conduct fair and secure elections. whether it's going to the polls and putting your ballot through a machine or doing it remotely like they do in some states, we do this well and there's no evidence to the contrary. >> david jolly, i'm so old that we did, we do this so well that republicans used to before campaigns went on forever, they used to go to emerging democracies. we are now a democracy with all the lights flashing yellow and red as we discussed yesterday. let me tell you how they have to protect the tabulation center in maricopa county, arizona. quote, on top of getting out ahead of this administration, election administrators have had to renovate voting infrastructure. the county's tabulation center

is almost unrecognizable from that of 2020. the center now resembles a maricopa county bill gates' words, an encampment. the center has permanent fencing, a badge requirement to even enter the parking lot as well as additional badges to enter the building. metal detectors upon entering the building and netting on the fencing in the parking lot so voters can't take pictures of election workers and their license plates. this is how we have to secure the people to tabulate the vote. >> and threats of violence against election workers, some volunteer, some temporary minimum wage americans just doing their civic duty. threats of violence against election workers is a hallmark of the donald trump era. it occurs because donald trump tells america they cannot trust the system. that there are bad actors in it, that if he loses, it's because

he was cheated. i find myself sometimes wrestling with the fact, there's a message from pro democracy folks and the trump folks. there are all these existential questions we're wrestling with. look at the contrast. democrats are i believe the democratic coalition rightly presenting to the american people there's an existential question on the ballot about the survival of democracy, and the remedy proposed by the democratic coalition is to go vote. to go vote. to exercise your civic duty to go vote. donald trump is suggesting there's an existential question that your vote is being stolen from you and if something's being stolen from you, then you have a right to act out. in this case, let's make a presumption that of these 20 people who have threatened violence suffered from some type of instability. donald trump is unleashing that with his words and he does it time and time and time again. if we were rewind the tape a

couple of decades, whatever it was to where at least both leading parties and candidates say we have the safest elections in the world and that's why we teach our practices to developing nations, i don't think we would have this. >> can i just layer over a question about and i don't know if this is the right term. but how is it not repulsive to sort of a toxic masculine slice of his base, he's so insecure about his ability to win fair and square that nine months before election happens, it's rigged. no one's voted yet. >> i do think that the nuance in this is that it layers into the cultural movement which relies on that toxic masculinity, white. aggrieved. demographic. that your way of life is being taken from you. what is consistent. >> no one's voted.

why is he telling them now? >> this is a big cultural conversation about race and gender and -- >> let's have it. >> the point is donald trump unleashed a movement saying that your way of life is under attack. that your white privilege is under attack. >> by who? >> by the elites, the coups, a growing diverse country. that somehow your ability and stapding in life, which arguably has relatively relied on your white and your gender, that's being taken by the elites and progressives and so forth. it worked without any fact because it's a cultural movement. not a political or policy argument. so this notion that so of course then if we don't, if we lose this election, there's no reason that we would lose the election because we're so correct about this. unless it was stolen. by bad actors like ruby freeman and shaye moss. so we're going to put pictures of them online and unleash the

violent attacks against them and we see what happened. this is going to happen all over again in november and that's why good for doj for having the task force. >> let me show you what happened in their own words. >> what i love most about my job were the older voters. younger people could usually do everything from their phone or go online, but older voters like to call. they like to talk to you. they like to get my card. they like to know that every election i'm here. i was excited always about sending out all the absentee ballots for the elderly, disabled people. i even remember driving to a hospital to give someone her absentee application. that's what i loved the most. >> i love seeing that but she should never have had to do

that. and that that becomes like an act of heroic bravery that we view now and discuss openly as in danger because of one guy with such a big ego that he knows he's going to lose eight months out is a national emergency. >> trump was so invested in the big lie and he started before the 2016 election. we know this to be true. he has lost every election since 2016. >> that was christie's argument. he's lost everything except once. >> he keeps losing so you can see where he's getting going with the rigging stuff. i think that makes a lot of sense. i think part of this toxic masculinity is this real fear that you are not really who you think you are. there's this you know layers of this. so i would say but you know when we're listening to that tape earlier about the woman saying how great it was that all these people are going to be election workers, it's great but it's

like they shouldn't have to be in a position where they feel they're taking a risk. this is just like a normal civil service job. and i do think it is you know, it's part of this, the big lie led to violence on january 6th. and it leads to violence and you know, he takes it as far as he can. this is a real autocratic trope. >> i think that's right. like here we go again. i think the whole conversation you and i had yesterday and the whole vigilance that only the democratic coalition and that small and big d, democratic, is to sort of keep out the seeping lies. the seeping authoritarian tools. i wonder how you think that effort is going. >> what is scary to me is that i don't know how long you can keep a democracy going when only one party believes in it. >> exactly. >> that, you know, it's great while democrats win but the minute they lose, i mean, i remember before the midterms i

was really worried about arizona. because kari lake said in 2024 there was no way she was going to certify a democratic win. so that kind of authoritarian streak is really quite scary. i don't know what you do. >> i think one of the things i think you do is you have all hands on deck. to maybe you work with chairman thompson and vice chair liz cheney and he's taken the extraordinary step of saying she'll do everything she can to make sure the republican nominee doesn't prevail. you guys interviewed a whole lot of people who saw what donald trump tried to do. who saw this authoritarian plot in motion. i wonder what you think some of your other witnesses, people like chairman milley, people because of their roles in government don't want to be part of the conversation over the next seven months. what duty do they have to warn

the nation. >> the only reason the coup wasn't successful is that patriots stood up and did the right thing. general milley, mike pence. bill barr. there are a lot of them. i may disagree them on a lot of issues of policy, but not on democracy. and we just don't have any confidence. i don't have any confidence in a return to a second trump administration that the currency won't be loyalty and will not be people that are willing to bend to the rules who are willing to engage in this misinformation and deception as opposed to the patriots, the qualified conservatives who served in the last administration. i hope that general milley and others, a lot of them who served, are willing to stand up and talk about what they saw firsthand. they were candid with us and that was the backbone of the report and hearings we presented. our witnesses almost exclusively were conservative republicans who served in the

administration. and thankfully their fidelity to the truth prevailed. i hope that continues because again, the stakes are really, really high. >> all right. no one's going anywhere. ahead for us, the disgraced ex-president's all out pretty gross and mushy embrace of january 6th. and its participants is now the corner stone of his candidacy. what that says about his autocratic tendencies. that's after a short break. plus, the incredible shrinking majority for republicans in the house. why speaker mike johnson's already shaky position with the far right of his own party may soon head over the cliff. and for donald trump, no lie is too small and everything is worth bragging and lying about. even his golf trophies. why everyone from jon stewart to the biden campaign is laughing at him and trolling trump over his latest shameless boast on social media. deadline white house continues after a quick break.

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ladies and gentlemen, please rise for the horribly treated january 6th hostages. >> didn't show you that to trigger you. i showed it to you because it really happened. i can't describe it. you have to see it because it would be difficult to capture in any different way. the disgraced ex-president's appalling and mounting attachment and embrace to the

ultimate betrayers of democracy who heeded his call than by showing you him saluting them during the national anthem. and the anthem is one he recorded with convicted january 6th insurrectionist to introduce as hostages. to him, the january 6th insurrectionists are heroes. hundreds of quote unbelievable patriots, political prisoners for whom he's helped fund raise and is now promising to free and pardon. today, the bulwark reminds us who they were. to strike down a police sergeant to using a shock weapon to deliver jolts to the neck of an officer who had been dragged. to thrusting a flag pole into the chest of an officer and striking two officers in the back of their heads. there's a rioter who sprayed three officers in the face with

pepper spray inkai pas tating them. one died the next day. another wrapped his arm around the neck of an officer and threw him to the ground and tackled four officers while his son grabbed another's face and eyes. we're back with tim and david. tim, we could have gone on. for the entire rest of our program and time would have run out before we accurately described the acts of violence trump supporters carried out against law enforcement officials. >> yeah. keep in mind that the people that are in that choir, the recording of which you just played, are held in prison. in the d.c. jail. so a judge almost often in the district of columbia, judge appointed by president trump, has made the determination that that person is either a risk, a flight, or a danger to the community. the vast majority who are

charged with january 6th offenses were not held in prison pending resolution. they got a bond and they were home. these are the worst of the worst. the judges have determined are so dangerous or they're so unreliable they need to be held in prison. so these are the people he is calling patriots or mistreated. that's shocking. there's a lot of degrees of culpability. some convicted of seditious conspiracy, that's the most serious. then there are trespassers. the kind that violated the law by going inside the capitol. the people sing ng that recording are closer to the seditious con spirists than the trespassers. that's why they're in prison. there's a lot of violent conduct

he is enabling and defending by calling those people patriots. >> january 6th happening, david jolly, with plenty of time for trump to pardon them if he wanted to. he didn't want to. he handed out pardons the way most people hand out decks of cards with the air force one insignia on them. maybe he'll pardon them but maybe he's lying to them again. >> i think he might. i think what we've seen from donald trump is he wasn't sure how it would play out. they have created this cause within the republican party and we have to recognize that for donald trump and for millions of people who follow him, january 6th was a day of patriotism and that is going to be baked in to the november election. coming out of ohio, i think about two-thirds of republicans believe that the 2023 election was unfairly decided.

this is now part of republican doctrine. i think this provides the ongoing complexity and challenge for how to cover this race, but also for how every american will think about this race because in some ways, the stature of the two major parties is working against us because we want to get equity to the two camps but when one of the camps is running on a lie and if they are successful, it would be an autocratic lie they accomplish. we can't grow numb to that. right? the old adage the sky is blue. maybe we report that they said it's red then tell the american people why it's wrong. that's this race. this race cannot -- >> so many love, the thing is you don't have the lexicon or expertise and it's why i'm going to cover the golf story ina

minute. i'm a cable news host. i probably need a law degree, a degree in psychology. i agree. it is about how we cover it. i want to show you what mike pence said. i think what we try to do is say don't believe me. believe his former vice president. here's what he said. >> i think it's very unfortunate at a time that there are american hostages being held in gaza that the president or any other leaders would refer to people that are moving through are justice system as hostages. and it's just, it's just unacceptable. >> now, should have been a political earthquake, right, when he came out. never before in our country's history and maybe that's losing resonance. has a candidate's own vice president not endorsed him. but mike pence didn't endorse his former boss, donald trump. called him the p word and all

sorts of heinous things. but on this issue of not only are they not hostages, they made that guy run for his life. >> yeah, and they were chanting -- >> hang mike pence. >> and built a gallo as though it wasn't usable which was somehow a defense. trump has used the -- >> confidence. >> trump has used the threat of political violence very successfully. he has used his supporters have bullied and you know, terrorized a lot of members of the republican party. so much so that mitch mcconnell was very happy to endorse him, right. we know mitch mcconnell does not want to endorse donald trump. this is a republican party that's quite scared of him. so you do see -- >> why? >> because they don't want security. because they're cowards. there are so many different reasons probably why but it's worked really well for trump. so i think trump will keep doing

this. and i think he's not incentivized to not. he just had a gag order placed on him because he is going after the judges. this is a person who's had a lot of success with this kind of online bullying leading to terrifying results. >> i want to give you the last word on how we cover him. the truth is i've been -- a gentleman who wrote an op-ed in oklahoma about how you know, no more. he's out. you've got sarah longwell's brilliant ad campaign the republicans against trump. no more. what do you sort of see and feel about that slice of the electorate? >> look, i think the way to communicate to voters many of whom don't want cable news and they'll make a decision with two weeks to go and say do i think we're going in the right or wrong direction. learning to communicate to those voters is less about january 6th and more about your loss of

freedom. donald trump says your way of life is being taken. the truth is, you're having a lot more taken from you under a donald trump regime. your vote, your reproductive freedom, access to healthcare, access to education, the economy. all that taken away from you. that's communicating to the voters. where in terms of how we talk about it and cover it in the press is the line. i think the line is in the autocratic trends and undermining of democratic institutions. the press lives on this moral determination that we are part of protecting the democracy in the united states. if it is questions of tax policy or labor policy or whatever, fine. it's fair to give equity to the two parties and two candidates on that. but on a movement that would undermine the freedoms we have as a country, i think it's perfectly appropriate for the press to step in. >> and tim, you know, the committee sort of stepped in to the breach when it was kwleer the department of justice hadn't

made it very far, the most generous way to describe their look into trump's role. what do you think should be sort of in front of voters in terms of what you unearthed? >> to the facts should matter. the facts really aren't in dispute. the facts have been told and retold again and again. they will again at some point be presented in a criminal court and the former president as any charged defendant will have an opportunity to challenge those facts, cross examine them, rebut them and put forth other facts. i hope people pay attention to those facts. are not swayed by the contrary facts, the incorrect misinformation on the other side. i think we have a division in this country of people that sort of agree on objective truth and people that are susceptible to the lies they've heard. i hope the truth prevails. the only way to do that is to

keep calling attention to it. you have to keep pointing out what's really going on in the hope that everyone pays attention and everyone rationally evaluates those facts. we get the right outcome. both in the courtroom and ballot box. >> does it complicate his defense? should he ever stand trial in the federal election interference case? that he's campaigning with the insurrectionists and wants to free them and pardon them? >> one of the things that the special counsel has to prove is intent. that he intended to disrupt a joint session. praising the actions of the people who violently interrupted the joint session, potentially relevant. you can't get inside someone's mind so prosecutors have to look at circumstantial evidence, his praising of these patriots who are charged, many of whom again in prison are charged with violently breaching the united states capitol. certain lip suggests to me and i

think will to jurors, that he approves their actions and intended for that breach of the capitol and the interruption of the session to be successful. so absolutely. i am sure his lawyers cringe whenever he talks in a praise worthy way about the eye rioter. >> thank you. when we come back, mike johnson in a bind familiar to many republican office holders in the era of donald trump. do the right thing or curtain number two, what trump tells you to do. we'll explain next. tells you to do. we'll explain next

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held hostage by his own party, mike johnson is now grappling with an either/or decision so often forced on republicans in the era of trump. problems of their own making, of course. doing the right thing, curtain number one, or alternatively, cave to the demands, sometimes arbitrary, of donald trump. this in response to a question last month, the speaker delivered an impassioned monologue on the nature of aid to ukraine, a departure from his colleagues' hard right views. quote, reminded by a member of the american coalition for ukraine, a non-profit advocacy

group of the adage that the only thing necessary for the triumph of evil was for good people to do nothing, mr. johnson replied he kept a copy of that quotation framed in his office. that's not going to be us, he assured us. we're going to do our job. it's such a hallmark of our times that that's secret -- is what we see. what do you think happens? >> he's in an impossible situation. again, he was like the number five guy. they pulled up the guy who was totally not ready for the job and then they gave him probably one of the hardest jobs. and remember when he got that job, they had a five-seat majority. now they have a one-seat majority. so things have really gotten hard and there's still this notion to vacate. so when you find the government, marjorie taylor greene was so furious she said she was going to do a motion to vacate. she filed it. they went on vacation. she said it was both a pink slip and a warning.

which gep again, that doesn't make sense. but she also said if he tried to pass ukraine aid, she would get rid of him. so he's a hostage to this one republican vote because of this motion to vacate. so yes, obviously, ukraine funding is needed. they're on the front lines, you know, desperate. but i don't know how he's able to thread that needle. >> you thread the needle because losing your job as speaker isn't as dire as losing a war against russia. so you thread the needle by saying if it cost me my job. >> i think two indications to watch from speaker johnson, a man of deep faith, gave assurances to biden and mcconnell and schumer he would get this done. in a white house meeting, he said i'll get it done. we'll see if he keeps his word. i think he wants to get it done. then this embrace of reaganism of american strength, which frankly runs counter to the

embrace of american weakness we see from matt gaetz and donald trump and others. i think he wants to get it done. as we discussed yesterday, i think johnson actually survives the end of this calendar year. but i think this coalition withholds their votes should republicans keep the majority, still an open question, withholds their votes from him in january. so does that mean he gets ukraine aid done with democrats? how does that look? i don't know, there is also a possibility if he's got any juice in the tank. this is a real test for a young speaker. joe biden could help him out, too. joe biden could do a little bit on executive orders around the edges that lets johnson say to the majority of his caucus, look, because i've worked with the president on this, we got a little bit done on border security. because they want border security. >> there was a border bill. they got everything they wanted. >> this has been reality. >> i can't. working on it. >> look, so republicans will tell you we passed i think hr 1,

2, whatever their aggressive conservative border bill was. i guess you could let the house vote again on immigration and ukraine and i'm going ask my caucus to allow a vote on both. he's not going to come out of this unscathed. i think there are a couple of pathways to get ukraine aid and survive the year. i'm not sure he's speaker at the start of the next congress. >> i don't think republicans hold the next congress. they have barely, you know, the do nothing congress passed like eight times more bills than this congress. >> again, it's like a bad joke. how bad are they. >> very bad. when we come back, my favorite story of the day. donald trump's latest not so humble brag about his golf trophies is much more serious than the punch line it's become. rick riley will be here, author of commander in cheat, how golf explains trump. he's our next guest. don't go anywhere. trump

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♪ be by your side... i'll be there... ♪ ♪ with my arms wrapped around... ♪ this week, donald trump proudly announced that he won two of his own trophies in his very own golf course in a single weekend. wow. never mind what rick riley told us about trump and his golf game in 2019 that at the golf club, caddies got so used to seeing trump kick his ball back on to the fairway, they called him

pele, soccer player. and forget what other celebrities have nearby dry as a bone, in the end, golf is just a game but the way one conducts themselves while they play golf is not. because if you cheat little things, just imagine what you do with the big things. you know, the stuff that matters. joining us now, the expert on this matter, so help me golf, why we love the game, rick riley is back with us. rick, my interview with you really got me through so much of the trump presidency because i think how a man or woman golfs is how a man or woman lives. just take me back through what you reported in the book about trump cheating at golf. >> well, i've always said golf is like bicycle shorts, reveals a lot about a guy. >> thank you for that. >> what it reveals about this

guy is that he cannot lose. he has to win and he will do anything to cheat. and i know because i played golf with him once. he took seven mulligans, a give me chip-in. never heard of a give me chip-in. more tournaments that aren't in the state. he won won in north korea when he was talking to kim jong-un or whatever his name was. won one in florida. i think it was in year, he won a two-day tournament when one die, he was at diamond's funeral, whatever that was, one of the two days, he wasn't even at the tournament. he just calls in, says, yeah, i usually beat that guy. give me the trophy. i know that because when i played with him, he goes you know what i do to win these championships, don't you? i'm like, please, tell me. give it to me. he goes, anytime i buy a new course, i play the first round by myself and then i declare myself the club champion.

so that's what kind of guy this is. he's never won a championship. he says he says 23 or something. he's played in pebble beach. in the tahoe one where there are rules and judges and cameras and in those, he's never finished in the top half. so he wins when anybody who disagrees that he won is out of the club. >> rick, what is it to other, i mean, golf is -- i have a 12-year-old, we don't let him cheat at golf because it's not the ethos of the sport. can you talk how outside the ethos of the sport it is to cheat so audaciously. >> i don't think about politics but i know about golf. i've covered it for 45 years. it's not a sport where you cheat. it's just not in game because if you're 100 yards over here and

i'm 100 yards that way, i trust that you're not going to foozle it, kick it or throw it and you trust i'm not going to. there's no refs. but with trump, not only does he kick it, cheat like a mafia three card dealer, he gets your ball and throws that in trouble. there's stories of him kicking his opponents' balls into bunkers because what he does, you know golf carts, also gets a turbo charged golf cart that goes three times as fast as yours so he's always 200 yards ahead. that gives him time to cheat. one time in l.a., was playing $50 a hole with these three guys. he hits it in the pond. they see the splash. by the time they get there, it's in the middle of the fairway and they're like, what the f,

donald, and he goes must have been the tide. >> not a political question, a golf question. doesn't it take sort of enablers to let someone cheat? does the sport usually purge out a cheater or just sort of roll its eyes at someone like him? >> well, what i've asked people how did you let him cheat? he's cheated against tiger woods? against dustin johnson. when i ask them why did you let him cheat and take the 20 bucks, they all say the same thing. i wanted my own story about trump cheating. >> that's amazing. >> it's freaking amazing. and so that's not how we do it in golf. that's why i was so disappointed to see my hero, jack nicklaus, at mar-a-lago last week for this phony fake as velveeta cheese championship where trump gave himself two championships.

>> i want to bring our other friends into this conversation. i need you to stick around a little longer. will you do that? >> yes. getting all worked up. >> we need it. honestly, he's bad at golf and cheats might be the one that makes him the most mad. we're going to see. we'll be back on the other side. e we'll be back on the other side. to a child, this is what conflict looks like. children in ukraine are caught in the crossfire of war, forced to flee their homes. a steady stream of refugees has been coming across all day. it's basically cold. lacking clean water and sanitation. exposed to injury, hunger. exhausted and shell shocked from what they've been through. every dollar you give can help bring a meal, a blanket, or simply hope to a child living in conflict. please call or go online to givenowtosave.org

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and when you use your credit card, you'll receive this special save the children tote bag to show you won't forget the children who are living their lives in conflict. every war is a war against children. please give now. and we see this, right? he's saying it's rigged and the election hasn't even happened yet. i almost think back to what hillary clinton said in 2016 where she said being a public servant is about public service. i really do think when you look at trump, he has never once ran for office because of public service.

like, he does not want to serve the public. he wants to serve himself. >> the cheating, too, and the audacious nature in which he does it on the golf course is also something he imported into the presidency. >> we were joking the story in '94 that kim jong-un had 11 holes in one. when i saw trump tweet that out, that's what came to mind. kim jong-il would execute somebody who challenged him on whether that was true or not. we're not facing that. >> yet. >> i think what it does show is how comfortable he is with cheating. goes through all these people that he's willing to cheat in front of knowing they are influencers. that their voices extend out to different places that he's willing to cheat in front of so many people with such audacity. that is a matter or people participating in the democracy. do you want somebody to lead the nation that's comfortable lying to you and cheating? i think we've seen what that looks like for four years but

it's on the ballot again for november. >> rick, you get the last word. >> the reason it matters, i will say long before the election, if he loses, he's going to come up with some reason he didn't lose. that's how he does it in golf. oh, no, you know, you talked because with me, he would be like, oh, no, you talked in my back swing. i get a re-hit. over and over. they translated this book into german, commander in chief. the man who can't lose. that's what it is. he started making a soft place for him to land before the election even happened and that's what he does with golf. if he thinks you're going beat him, he's like, well, i need more strokes from you and this or that. when i was 7 years old, i would play basketball in the driveway and played all ten guys in my mind and i always won and i was the guy that hit the game winner but you outgrow that. >> you were 7.

yeah. >> this need to win. >> you know, i said earlier in the show that i wished i was a, had studied psychology or psychiatry because trump exceeds my skill set. you get it. we're going to have to continue on a more regular basis. rick, molly, david, thank you for being at the table. another break for us. we'll be right back. table another break for us we'll be right back. voya provides tools that help you make the right investment and benefit choices. so you can reach today's financial goals and look forward to a more confident future. voya, well planned, well invested, well protected.

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