interesting thing about the olympics is there's always that concern before it starts and then the opening ceremony happens. >> yeah. >> and it's just a celebration. >> everyone surrenders to it, and they hope nothing goes wrong. >> yeah. >> this will be -- what number olympics will this be for you? >> five maybe, i think five. >> lucky dog, my friend. the best one yet. >> paris in the summertime. there's a song about that? >> paris in the springtime song. >> it does get quite hot in the summer. ignore that. it's going to be great. >> keir simmons, thanks very much. please bring us more good-looking frenchman. we'll always make room for it. that will do it for me today. "deadline white house" starts right now. ♪♪ today "deadline white hous >> hi there, everyone. happy wednesday. it's 4:00 in new york. it is a money-making scheme that makes trump stakes look like small potatoes. brand new reporting revealing

that the ex-president funnelled more than $100 million that he raised off of the big lie, the toxin injected by trump and his allies, into the political blame of our very own democracy right into his pile of legal bills. "the new york times" reporting this, that, quote, mr. trump has averaged more than $90,000 a day in legal-related costs for more than three years. none of it paid with his own money. and much of those funds come from the very same thing that has landed trump in legal trouble in the first place, $254 million raised in the post-election period when trump regularly lied to his supporters claiming that the election was rigged against him and tried desperately to overturn his election defeat. as "the new york times" reports, even though trump called on his supporters to fill up his so-called election defense fund, just a fraction of the money he raised from his supporters, $15.6 million, actually went toward any of the lawsuits or

recounts, all of which, of course, failed, to turn up any fraud or move the needle in trump's favor because, as we all know, there was no fraud on a scale that would have impacted the election result, at all, anywhere. instead, all the contributions went to a political action committee, the state of america parx and after trump left the white house another pac, the maga pac, began to take in these donations, all, all of it to pay trump's legal bills which were soaring as prosecutors zeroed in on trump's alleged criminal conduct. as the investigations led to four historic indictments, trump spent nearly $60 million in legal fees in 2023, all while scrambling to find ways to get his supporters to continue to foot the bill for his legal fees. "new york times" reports this, early last year trump made a change to bring more money into save america, the pac that was paying his legal expenses. one cent of every dollar he raised online went to save america and the rest went to his

2024 campaign, but was save america short of cash to pay lawyers he increase that had to 10%. now trump is stuck in a dilemma of his observe making, the needs of miss presidential campaign are in danger of being overshadowed by the need to pay his lawyers. who essentially have one straptgy in mind. they want to prevent any cases from going to trial before the november election which trump is telling his own voters he needs to have in order to have the charges against him dismissed or suspended indefinitely. "new york times" reports that under trump's current arrangement with the rnc, donations go to the pac paying his legal bills before a penny goes to the republican party. seems like he needs every penny he can get. from the "times" again, the account paying trump's legal bills will be most likely be out of money by summer at the current summer pace, then trump will have to decide whose money is he going use to pay his lawyers in the next chapter with the january 6 select committee

coined, the big rip-off is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. national investigative reporter for "the washington post" is here, a former rnc spokesman and cass miller is here and senior editor at "bloomberg opinion" and ryan crr and democratic strategist at hunter college. chris christie made this as one of his central pillars in his candidacy against donald trump. let me make this argument of christie trying to make this argument before republican primary voters. >> when you look at just his campaign filings yesterday, almost most of the money that middle class americans have given to him, he spent on his own legal fees, and this guy is a billionaire, and how about you go down the street, maybe just sells trump tower and pays for his legal fees that way or maybe sell the plane.

>> he's the cheapest person i've ever met in my life and what he's very good at caitlin, is spending other people's money. they think they are paying for campaign expenses, not personal legal expenses. what happens here is this is a documents case. it had nothing to do with the campaign at all. it's a personal fault of his, mistakes he made that he's now being held to account for and has to pay lawyers to defend him. >> so carol, we match, i can see. this message only lasted and only was in front of republican primary voters as long as chris christie's candidacy lasted, and now that it's over i haven't heard the biden camp make this argument, but my question for you, and this is what i say is one of the hallmark differences between '16 and '24. in '16, and we like a lot of networks carried more of the trump speeches so i listened to every one of them. it was a cynical and sick campaign, but it was at least in

his mind about what he thought his base wanted. he thought they wanted a wall. he thought they wanted harsher immigration policies this. campaign is about his retribution against his perceived political enemies about, freeing his supporters who went to the capitol and committed crimes at his direction that endangered the life of mike penn, and it's about taking and spending all of his donors' money on his legal fees while he possesses buildings and planes and what not. do you think that this is something that we'll hear more about in the coming months? >> if you mean from the biden campaign, i wouldn't begin to guess. i mean, i would imagine it would be a smart strategy to focus on the big rip-off claims of the january 6 committee and how, you know, chris christie puts it better than others, that basically most donors in the middle class and the working class probably don't realize that all of their money is going to pay law firms and lawyers who

are trying to delay donald trump from having to actually have a trial on any of the more serious indictments against him in federal court. i find one of the most interesting things, if you don't mind me diverging a little. >> please. >> i find this trail of money, you know, which a lot of us sort of took for granted, right, that he wasn't paying his legal bills starting when chris christie spoke about it before and i find the detail and precision so valuable because what you and i can see as we step back away from the chart is that during the time donald trump was trying to convince people to fund his election defense which he never really intended to do, he was engaged in some of the criminal acts that he's accused of by jack smith. i mean, it is in january and in late december that he is packing up boxes with his aides to take with him to mar-a-lago, recognizing while he's telling

his supporters something else, recognizing that he's going have to leave the white house. he did not win the election. as well, he is -- he reese actively engaged in trying to use every level of power in the white house and in the oval to force the department of justice to tell people that there is fraud in this election, to force mike pence to refuse to certify the results of biden's victory. literally while he is raising this money that will pay for his lawyers, he is engaged in the acts which jack smith says now was a criminal conspiracy of historic proportions. >> it's so interesting. he's committing the crimes while he's raising the money to pay for the criminal defense lawyers that are defending him and successfully, unfortunately, achieving some of these delays that are part of where the legal strategy meets up with the political strategy. i want to show our viewers some of what you're talking about, and this is the -- it may be the

only investigation into what you're talking about that is before the public before they vote in november. this is the work of the january 6 select committee on this issue. >> between election day in january 6 the trump campaign sent millions of fund-raising e-mails to trump supporters, sometimes as many as 25 a day. the e-mails claimed the, quote, left wing mob was undermining election, implored supporters, to quote, step up to protect the integrity of the election and encouraged them to, quote, fight back, but as the select committee has demonstrated, the trump campaign knew these claims of voter fraud were false yet they continued to barrage small donor donors with e-mails, encouraging them to donate to the official election defense fund. the select committee discovered no such fund existed. >> i don't believe there is actually a fund called the action defense fund. >> did you say the election defense fund was a marketing tactic? >> yes. >> on november 9, 2020,

president trump created a separate entity called the save america pac. most of the money raised went to this newly created pac, not to election-related litigation. the select committee discovered that the save america pac made millions of dollars of contributions to pro-trump organizations, including $1 million to trump chief of staff mark meadow' charitable foundation, $1 million to the america first policy institute, a conservative organization which employs several former trump administration officials, $204,857 to the trump hotel collection and over $5 million to event strategies, inc., the company that ran president trump's january 6 rally on the ellipse >> you know, carol, the dominion lawsuit and what became public facing made all of us into these dangerous armchair first amendment legal scholars, so i'm going ask a question admitting that i am not one, but we became familiar with this idea of known

falsity and how that is tied to questions of fraud. i wonder if you think that this idea that they knowingly peddled a lie that they are raising money to spend on their campaign is something where he remains vulnerable. >> i think it's a legal area that for -- but for being a president who is working in the campaign finance field, i think that it would be a slam dunk. i'm not, again, nor am i a first amendment lawyer, but i will say that i have seen ministers raise money saying that it's for their campaign and then they are paying their babysitter and their consulting fees for something totally different that has very little to do with their campaign, and it is never come raining down upon them. you'll remember, of course, steve bannon, of course, donald trump's right-hand markings was indicted for fraudulently

claiming to voters that he was working for a nonprofit that would build the rest of the wall when he was actually paying members and other leadership members of the team in a nonprofit that was not building the wall and that charge is what he was prosecuted for and ultimately by donald trump pardoned for. i think it's a little different actually for a president who -- and former president who is saying i'm raising this money for this purpose. we will see, but i -- i -- i don't see the charges there yet. >> tim, i've had this question, and i know that campaign finance laws can change, but is it -- are you in a legal murky area? we had very up tight lawyers when i worked on campaigns, had up tight campaign managers when i worked on campaigns and i know the trump orbit isn't anything like that. is it one thing that was protect the by norms that you don't take millions and millions in doe nations and use it for a personal legal defense slush fund?

was that something that wouldn't happen because of the campaign norms and standards, or is that a murky and legal ethical area? >> yeah. i think both, right. you know, you look back any campaign, and frankly everybody does the oh, 5x match if you give me money, and they are not 5x matching. i remember at the rnc i don't think this is true that we're sending out in the email and can the lawyers check it and it a lot of times lawyers let it go through. i have some guilt over that. there's some element over this where it was murky and protected by norms and like everything else donald trump has exacerbated it and expand it had and done it in the gristiest and most over-the-top way imaginable to benefit himself, and do i think this is where though there's a political vulnerability, like back to the biden questions right, which is that donald trump has defrauded his own vote remembers, right? some of these voters -- some of these middle class force that is chris christie was talking about

are happy to give him money, but there's some that he defrauded. "the new york times" did some reporting on this. there were folks who had the automatic chuck button. you think you're giving him 10 bucks and you have to uncheck it to not give him a recurring $10. there's plenty of examples and as a legal matter it might be murky but as a political matter biden absolutely should be using this message to talk to red america. you know, james carville has been very good on this. you don't need to win red parts of georgia if you're joe biden, but it certainly helps to take down the margin, and i think a message of donald trump scammed you. he defrauded you. he stole your money to pay for his own ritzy life-style. meanwhile, joe biden is investing in your communities with the chips act and infrastructure act. that would be at least be a fun message to put on fox and news max to shake the tree a little bit and there are certain types

of voters that aren't in these areas that aren't deep in the trump cult that might be persuaded by this because it is absolutely outrageous the man who runs his own complain claiming to care about the forgotten man and wag the finger at us saying he we're east coast elitists. he's robbing people who pay for his own fancy lifestyle with the cougars at mar-a-lago and that's exactly what he's doing. >> is that a new thing, cougars of mar-a-lago? >> boy not watch it. i would not be watching from. >> i wouldn't either, but it -- i want to ask you -- i want to stay on this idea because the only people with agency, right, are the voters? it's over. the legal machinations, i mean, there's like a wisp of a puff of a possibility that maybe something happens. i don't buy, it so the only people with agency are the voters, so all of this reporting is information for voters and

all of this is sifting through the messages to basically three different groups, right? your base if you're joe biden and the coalition, the democrat base. 9 voters that you and sara longwell have sort ever revealed to all of us, the people who will never vote for trump again, may or may not be converted to biden voters but they are not there for trump this time and then the donor class and inside the done or class you're talking about small dollar donors, but what makes the big guys wright checks for trump's legal bills? why don't they say go sell one of your gold toilets. i'm not writing a check for your slidesy lawyers. >> some of it is corrupt. not only does he not care about the forgotten man he doesn't want to drain the swamp. we've seen the byte dance investor who has been now one of the biggest donors this cycle supporting trump and trump efforts. what he wants is to not have the

ticket job ban happen, byte dance the parent company of tiktok. there are other examples of this. you know, i'm not as familiar these days with the republican donor class. they don't like me very much anymore. the folks that fund our never trump conservative groups back then, many of them went on and supported him in the general election. when i tried to ask them why, it was access. white house access, many of these folks, you know, didn't agree with him ideologically but wanted something. i think some of that is happening with big donors and maybe have had their brain broken by fox. i don't know. that would be my other theory. >> broken brains, cougars at mar-a-lago, the unfortunate task of going next. >> the cougars of mar-a-lago does sound like a tv show. >> right, not just me. >> right, it does sound like a tv show. >> part of me felt like i'd seen that before. >> and what is even worse is he'd be happy to star in it, by the way. >> trump, not tim. >> not tim, of course. donald trump while serving president would also be happy to star in the reality tv show "the

cougars of mar-a-lago" because it would be extra income for him so why not. >> he'd take a fee to shoot it there, right? >> one of the things to focus on is he has been at this game for a very long time. >> right. >> stripping average folks from their paychecks. he ran a casino business in atlantic city that busted average working class folks on the premise that maybe they would get rich and some of them were going there for fun, but larger sort of mojo of the business was selling a false dream to these folks. he wrote a book called "after the deal" that was meant to be a bible about how to be successful in business when in the real world he's a serial bankruptcy artist. he goes on to "the apprentice" and is presenting himself as a entrepreneurial guru to the masses and the hardest work corporate guy in america when he plays golf all the time and is not very bright. and once he figured out how to montides his stay in the white house, that he finds almost every avenue he can to grist

again, whether it's his hotel near the white house or now in a really grand mal, grotesque way, taking campaign finance donations and using them to pay his personal legal bills, and the problem in all of this is there's not a good regulatory or enforcement mechanism available to go after him on this. >> right. >> the federal election commission is toothless. there are no prosecutors i think ginning up a gays on this, even though they went over george santos whose stuff looks like small time change compared to what trump has been doing. >> yeah. i mean, there's the bibles that we'll get to next. we'll get you in on that second in a second. carol, i know you have to leave us. thanks tore starting us off. still to come as donald trump is weighed down with debt from his many, many legal entanglements and court cases, he is pitching himself as a bible expert and selling them now.

really. this is real news. the other guy, president joe biden, has actually been campaigning, criss-crossing the country, talking to voters with a head of steam after that state of the union. we'll give you an update on the state of politics. plus, confirmed coup plotter jeffrey clark who had high hopes of running the justice department and helping his boss donald trump stay in power after he lost is now facing possible disbarment. new details from that hearing in washington on just how far he was willing to go to support and hard wire the government to be part of an insurrection. and the baltimore bridge tragedy surprisingly is getting wrapped into the sick right wing disinformation machine, not even 24 hours had passed before conspiracy theories and baseless rumors about that tragedy began circulating online and on bronchlgts all that story and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. (♪♪)

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i'm proud to be part energy with my very good friend lee greenwood. who doesn't love his song "god bless the usa." religion and christianity are the biggest things missing from this country. all americans need a bible in their home, and i have many. that's my favorite book. i think you all the should get a cope of "god bless the usa" bible now and help spread our christian values. let's make america pray again. >> wait, let me do one more thing. let me show you how much he knows about the bible. this is him asked by our friend john highly >> when i talk about the bible, it's very personal, so i don't want to get into verses.

>> there's no verses that means a lot to you that you think about or cite? the bible means a lot to the me. >> even to tell us one that you like. >> new testament or old testament guy? >> probably equal. >> equal. he says it's his favorite book but we also know that he kept speeches of adolf hitler on his bedside sometime ago. >> probably equal. >> equal weight. you know, it's fascinating to me because, you know, he's selling sneakers which black twitter called treason ones which is phenomenal. he's selling this bible and would i check it to make sure that the verses are what they are supposed to be because they could be his propaganda hidden in those pages. he'll be selling his bath water next in the helms of his garments, and we've seen this before. this is why, you know, a lot of the conversation efforts and segment is really important,

because when we were talking about the big lie and i would say, you know, think about it as a big conspiracy because it takes a lot of money and a lot of patience to get everybody on message and coordinated to talk about this thing in the same way. the same people to the home of a ruby bridges, right, to intimidate her. what he's doing now, again, we've seen before because it mimics the behavior of a televangelist, and if we think about the population so stubbornly for him, you know, as akin to a religious fervor, then this makes sense to. tim's point, they are funding his lifestyle, and that is really incumbent upon all of us, and the biden administration campaign, to call that out. every time you see him playing golf, the voters are saying that, they think they are sending him to the white house but they are sending him to the golf course. every single time and hopefully you wrest some of that attention away from him and focus the

public on issues that really matter, but this is what -- this is a political televangelist getting people to support his lifestyle but i think this is part of the conversation because this is a fraud. if he were selling water beds on condoms, fine, he says the greatest risk he's taken i think was being sexually active in the '80s or something. this has nothing to do with donald trump. the bible he held up at lafayette square told us so. this is part of the lie that he's propagating on his base. >> you made a great point about how he monetizes those lies, right? he montuesdays everything. think of all of the buildings that has his flame on it. he didn't build the buildings, he got somebody to put his name on it so when you go through and look at how paper thin his record, is how paper thin his entire life has been really and what he sold to voters, it is -- it is perpetrating this massive, massive fraud that i do believe voters are starting to -- some vote remembers starting to come away from. >> tim, i made myself asking the

questions about whether there's, you know, a bridge too far for anyone in his base there. obviously isn't, but in a moment where he's more politically exposed a long with the legal exposure, and you and i have been a vocal group and we've come face to face to republicans who will not vote for him again. is there an audacity limit you think for those that haven't made that leap yet to say no more, no ma? >> the more people face trump the more they dislike him. the more that you see -- trump has benefited somewhat from being off of the radar, from being only on truth social. i hate calling it, that you know, because a lot of regular people are going about their lives and aren't being reminded why they don't like him so much, and do i think things like this that are very mockable that can go viral might be one little brick as part of a large wall,

so to speak, of bricks that are going to be needed to remind people they don't want this person again. this person is a scam artist. and hopefully they are religious and where you can turn to. there's people with credibility in the religious community. this is sacrilegious. don't do that. it should be mocked. it seems like a pyramid an "snl" skit. the american flag woven into the bible, i -- america doesn't have anything to do with jesus, right? putting some country singer's lyrics inside the bible. that's not -- this is not -- i'm not the best message for this as a secular gay man, but i do think there are a handful, not as many as we wish, genuine christian leaders out there, david french, russell moore who have spoken out and whose voiced should be elevated about this, and can you get 1% of faithful

christians, 2% of faithful christians to start to get turned off by this, i don't think that's crazy and it's possible and there should be an effort to the do it. >> tim said something really intriguing that i've been noodling with off tv and being deplormd, if this is an election on someone who wants to end it, it's trump. should we see more of him. >> i think this is going to be a long campaign, it's eight months and i think he'll be sorely tested multiple times again and again between now and november because i don't think he has the wherewithal tore the discipline not to routinely reveal himself for what he is, you know. bibles that he's selling, he's selling them for 60 bucks apiece so i guess he can sell 8 million of them and it would settle his $454 million court judgment that he's scrambling to avoid. the reality is he's never been religious. he doesn't care about religion. i spoke with him when i was working on my book a number of

times, and he openly said, well, i sort of believe in god but i don't really care about any of it, and he played this during his first administration. remember, he stood on the white house lawn at one point, around the time that he was talking about possibly buying greenland, and he described himself as the chosen one, and he was -- he was engaging in back and forth on social with wayne allen root, one of these evangelicals who mix business and faith in one basket and says that jesus is the ceo of christianity. you are know, to follow up on tim miller's point, this is sacrilegious. it's blasphemous, and he is using people's religious and spiritual devotion to feather his nest and play on their need to have a messianic figure telling them in a complex world that there are easy solutions and you can solve them by being a racist or being a thug on immigration or selling a bill of goods to your electorate or picking their pocket for money and then can you get away with

it because you're the messiah, and it's interesting that he's doing this obviously easter week, and he's also presenting himself as someone who has been persecuted just like jesus christ. he says it every time he's, you know in, a courtroom setting. he's being persecuted so he knows the strings he's playing but it's a measure of how utterly craven and debased he is as an individual apart from this absolutely cartoonish approach he has to bible sales. >> i'll give liz cheney the last word. she had quite the clapback. happy holy week, donald. instead of selling bibles you should probably buy one and read, it including exodus 20:14, if you don't know it refers to thou shalt not commit adultery. one candidate juggles self-court

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yeah. seven months is an eternity in a political year. dynamics change with the tides. there are unforeseen events that

we can't predict right now. election day itself, isn't of late, but usually, is but think of this afternoon as just a shappshot in time for us to ponder and examine. in one candidate up to his red necktie in self-imposed legal calamities and reaching donor money and money from the republican national committee just to pay the $90,000 a day legal burn rate. in fact, the socioed press today crites republican operatives and party officials involved in campaign planning in reporting trump's current general election infrastructure is but a skelton of what it should be. on the other hand, president joe biden has reportedly opened 100 new offices and added more than 350 new staffers in swing states from arizona to georgia to pennsylvania this month alone. that's thanks to fund-raising humming along for him, $53 million in february. more than the trump campaign has cash on hand right now.

"the daily beast" suggests this the ingredients for a biden comeback are in place and the president's team is ready to seize upon april and may as a crucial time to wound an injured candidate. it's so important to keep everyone on high alert and say this guy would end our democratic experiment. we might not make it to -- i put this question to sue gordon and ken burns and said we might not make it to 300. we might not make it to 270. that's how dire a trump election would be. a referendum on an incumbent is always a dangerous place tonight. you need to make it a contrast. trump is almost pushing this to a referendum on trump and trumpism. >> that's true and you're absolutely right and that's what i want to see what joe biden is doing in investing in the the infrastructure because at every part of the ballot you can infuse that message about this is just -- this is -- this is trump making a referendum on himself but this is also not us

talking about the legalese. it's us talking about values which is a flip, right, because you don't always associate democrats talking about values. >> it's the gut, right? >> absolute lit gut. many moons ago when i started in politics i remember all the times kline kline used to come into the city and raise money and the state party would get a little bit of that. i always remember when he wasn't speaking he would send out the cabinet members so i got to see alexis herman and rodney slater and before he passed away ron brown, all these folks going out there and carrying the message, and the fact that the biden campaign is saying we're going to start putting out some of the cabinet members to do exactly that is incredibly important because if it's not him, it is those individuals who are going to be talking about projects. they are going to be talking about programs and the ways in which the voter can access government and ways in which, you know, from an economics point of view especially that government can actually work for them so that infrastructure

really becomes important because it helps fund that message top to bottom in a way that donald trump can't do, so a lot of the candidate down ballot won't be getting that support because he needs that money for himself. >> the others, again, like i really try -- we do not give a lot of air time to polls ever, at any point. not on election week but the structural pieces are so interesting to me, and this one of making it a referendum on trump is such a political advantage to the biden team and the other is abortion, so structural. republicans are losing big-time in deep red places because nobody wants abortion health care to be illegal or eliminated. >> both of these things are a everyone measure of how deeply out of touch the republicans are with average americans' needs, and -- and if -- if think going to make this race ultimately a contest between trump and biden it's not a contest between republicans and democrats. it's a contest between an elderly and deeply dedicated public servant surrounded by

high quality very capable advisers and an unhinged narcissist who wants to torch the constitution. that's what is this race it is about, and in the middle of that, where they are going to strike notes with people is whether or not biden can go into that war and win it, and i agree with you about polls, but, you know, there was a bloomberg news morning consult poll. >> i saw it. >> that showed the gap narrowing between trump and biden in a number of swing states. as you know, you know, of course, polls aren't accurate. >> but they are directional. >> they are directional, and the people responding to that -- to that poll, two of the big factors that brought them closer to biden was his state of the union address, you know, where he was engaged and on his marks and taking it back. he ad libbed wonderfullly during that speech and democrats were happy he was going after trump. democrats sort of go into kumbaya when the battle is waged and don't understand it's a street fight and with donald

trump there has to be a street fight component to this, but it also as battel was saying, as were you saying on abortion, on infrastructure and education and any number of job growth, the economy, jobs and wages have all grown during the biden administration. to bring those messages home to people and say to women in every state, we're going to protect your right to reproductive health care and that we're going to continue to make this a strong economy. we'll look after your national security. that will matter as long as they pair it also with really taking the battle to trump i think. >> i think they also liked that he again stood against rage rage when talking about protecting democracy. there's one coalition that has very loud and vocal notes being played across the ideological spectrum and one coalition -- i don't know if you talk about it as a coalition. a cult, one guy. >> very quickly. >> i think your point is really,

really important. the street fight. absolutely a street fight. when it comes to valueses there are maga republicans right now that says dei stands for didn't earn it. that is the gut punch. >> gosh. >> when you start talking about that and my jobs and my credentials and background and make me feel that i didn't spot that i occupy right now, that's that value gut punch that drives people to the polls because it goes back to -- everything obama even said. you've got to be twice as qualified to be on this space. twice as call guide to be in this space and if you're going to come after that. >> it's what they did yesterday directing it at the black mayor of baltimore. >> absolutely right. absolutely right. they wear it on their sleeves when they do it. it's basically a polite version of the "n" word. >> that's right. >> is there a polite splergs. >>. >> they are trying to make dei a polite version of it.

>> thanks for coming to the table. alabama signaling loud and clear that voters, no voters in any part of the country in any party want the government intruding on their private medical decisions. we'll tell you all about that next. medical decisions. we'll tell you all about that next it's hard to explain what this feels like. ♪♪ moving piles of earth, just by moving a lever. ♪♪ towing up to 4,000 lbs with a machine that weighs less than half that. cutting grass, clearing the way, and perfecting every inch of your land. ♪♪

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repeal the bad ban on no exceptions abortion. i want to protect ivf and contraception. it feels like it's a start of a change here. >> that was marilyn lands last night after her victory in a special election to fill a vacant house seat in alabama. lands didn't just flip a seat from red to blue, she won by 25 points and did it by campaigning openly as you heard in that clip on reproductive freedom. it is an issue that has brought together voters all across the political ideological spectrum and in every single election on roe since it was overturned and no sign of its poe tensy subsiding. this is likely to serve of democratic candidates better and make things worse and worse for the republican party. joining us is the president of reductive rights for all and

basel is still here. i don't want to be surprised because i want to have faith in that which unites us, but were you at all surprised by not just her victory but by her margins. >> the margins, absolutely. like we felt really positive about the campaign she was running, the messaging, the strategy, but the margins, yeah. they were really -- honestly the kind of shot in the arm that we needed again, must lysz the early ballot initiatives, to really make sure we're staying on track with the reproductive freedom messaging that we're seeing the realtime impact. when you have candidates like marilyn who didn't just support reproductive freedom, she made it the centerpiece of her election and told her own abortion story in an ad in the campaign. this was a really empowering moment for the movement and for women in alabama but also a really critical strategy lesson that when we lean in as candidates, our candidates lean in and lead and personalize this, it's really xeshlgs and

it's a winning message. >> i think this is women taking the most painful and horrible tragedies that they have experienced in an effort to have families that -- that has changed the conversation. i want to show our viewers some of what you're talking about. this is her ad telling her story. >> today in alabama, women have fewer freedoms than they did 20 years ago. i know because two decades ago i faced the hardest decision of my life, too. my baby had, you know, an underdeveloped brain, heart, lungs. the doctors all advised that i terminate the pregnancy. all three doctors said this is absolutely what you need to do. your health salt risk, but this isn't just my do. your health is at risk. but this isn't just my story. this is our story, and it's the story of millions of women who live in places where maga extremists are devising new and

cruel ways to further erode our most basic freedoms. >> the anti-abortion extremists didn't count on -- they didn't have a plan on dealing with women who want these babies desperately. these are their babies. before they suffer and endanger their own lives they have to make difficult decisions. and these are three doctors in the room. talk about this should be accessible, safe, available to every woman in every circumstance. this was it story she told and this seemed to have galvanize and resulted in that march you're talking about. >> yeah, no, it's such a good point. the anti-abortion extremists have known about these stories for decades, let's be clear. and we've been fighting about abortion access, coverage about abortion, who can provide abortions, how it gets funded for decades in the supreme court at the federal level, at the state and local level. we have surfaced as a movement.

these types of exact stories, again, for decades. so if they were unprepared it was callus disregard, and they really thought people would not speak out. there's been so much stigma around abortion and telling their abortion stories. i think they really thought a lot of these women would stay silent. i agree with you folks like amanda, maryland, even some of the male candidates coming forward and talking about their abortion stories and their families, they're heroes. and they're doing the critical work connecting the dots between public policy and what's happening in real peoples lives. >> it's so important. i love we get right to the tectonic shifting. i want to bring in basil on this. i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll be right back. i have to sk break. we'll be right back. these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him.

good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free. ♪♪ we're building a better postal service. all parts working in sync to move your business forward. with a streamlined shipping network. and new, high-speed processing and delivery centers. for more value. more reliability. and more on-time deliveries. the united states postal service is built for how you business.

and how you business is with simple, affordable and reliable shipping. usps ground advantage. we're back with basil and mini. we've been talking about strugtural pieces and this feels the most structural. >> i can tell you when anyone uses the term public pallalcy it makes me excited. it's what i do. it's right here in the gut, and i tell you as much as we talk about money in politics, history is replete with people that lose money in elections. i was reminded about carroll mccarthy whose husband was injured in a senseless shooting on a long island railroad in 1993. the republican in district doubled down on that shooting after the second amendment. carolyn who's a nurse said you

know what, i have to do something about this. she ran and she won. and reminds that issues really do matter. and if you're consistent, if you actually bring in allies, which she was able to do, which is true in this race that we're talking about, when you bring in those allies, when you bring in that new coalition, it can propel you forward in ways we didn't even expect. so this story is amazing to me because it's about issues and it's about digging deep into those issues and actually creating a movement around it, which is so special, so remarkable. >> yeah, i think what basil is saying mini is it's about story and the tragedy is for so many women this is our story, this is what happens. this is what happened to us, what happened to our sister, what happened to our best friend. and whether it's an abortion, an unplanned pregnancy, onunviable pregnancy, the need to turn to ivf for fertility issues, this is every woman's story. >> you're going to see the biden

campaign and the harris campaign up and down the ticket in the state races they've decided for the second cycle in a row abortion is going to be a tip of the spear issue for all candidates. you're going to see a lot more content in adds of real life women telling their stories and families impacted. we're seeing more folks willing to come out, and it's going to be a critical piece of the message going into this election. >> for all of us in having this conversation, this is to be continued. thank you so much for your time today. a really important update for everybody. at 10:00 tonight on the "last word" with lawrence o'donnell, fresh off his win we've been talking about in alabama, representative elect marilyn lands will be lawrence's guest. up next for us new and never before heard details about the plan to keep donald trump in office after he lost the election in 2020. using the levers of power at the

department of justice to do so. that story when deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. a quick break. don't go anywhere. okay everyone, our mission is to provide complete, balanced nutrition for strength and energy. yay - woo hoo! ensure, with 27 vitamins and minerals, nutrients for immune health. and ensure complete with 30 grams of protein. (♪♪)

i made the point that jeff clark is not even competent to serve as the attorney general. he's never been a criminal attorney. he's never conducted a criminal investigation in his life. he's never been in much less a trial jury. and he kind of retorted by saying, well, i've done a lot of very complicated appeals and civil litigation and environmental litigation and things like that. and i said that's right, you're an environmental lawyer. how about you go back to your

office and we'll call you when there's an oil spill. >> ooh, solid burn there. former acting deputy attorney general richard donohue's diss. an inside account at the turmoil of donald trump's highest level at the doj. he spoke of ex-president donald trump's plan that got alarmingly far down the road to install the man you just heard donohue talk about sending back to his office to handle an oil spill should it occur. the man's name is jeffrey clark. he was acting attorney general for a minute. why? because jeffrey clark showed the ex-president that he was more than willing, he was excited to pursue donald trump's bogus claims of nonexistent voter fraud, that he would attempt to use the power of the justice department to keep trump in power even though he'd lost the

election. but thanks to men like donohue and others at doj who said they would resign en masse if clark was given the position, clark was not installed for long. now, three years later we're hearing publicly from another of those key figures who acted as one of the guardrails in stopping trump's attempt to ev throw the leadership of the justice department. this man's name is patrick philbin. he had a history with clark. he'd worked with him back in the '90s. so when the idea of putting clark at the top of doj was circulating around the white house and especially with trump, philbin called his colleague to talk him out of it. quote, i tried to explain to him it was a bad idea for multiple reasons, philbin recalled. quote, he would be starting down the path of a short failure. if by some miracle somehow it worked, there'd be riots in every major city in the country. and it was not an outcome the country would accept, end quote. to which clark responded, quote,

well, pat, that's what the insurrection act is for. gulp. that unbelievable exchange in a second. but for some perspective politico notes the significance of philbin and his public testimony this way. though philbin has spoken to both the january 6th select committee and the federal grand jury that indicted trump for his efforts to seize a second term, no transcript or recording of his remarks has ever been released. why is philbin speaking out now? is he breaking this you have to assume well-protected three-year silence? well, because currently under way in washington, d.c. is a disbarment hearing for jeffrey clark. that hasn't happened yet if you can believe it. it is a step of legal accountability for one of the chief most unapologetic architects of the effort to overturn a free and fair presidential election in america. as criminal accountability as seems rather far off, clark was indicted along with the ex-president in the georgia racketeering case. he has pleaded not guilty there, and he was one of the

coconspirators listed in jack smith's election interference indictment. the prosecuting attorney leading the disbarment hearing said this. that, quote, what clark was attempting to do was essentially a coup at the department of justice. today former acting attorney general jeff rosen testified and reaffirmed that clark was not acting based on the truth. >> you indicated that mr. clark had a different view than yourself about what the department's posture ought to be towards the election controversies. correct? >> yes. and unfortunately his wasn't based on the facts and the law. >> facts and the law getting their day at a disbarment hearing. it's where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends of the show. politico national correspondent and msnbc contributor betsey woodruff swan is back. plus former acting assistant attorney general for national security at the justice department, msnbc legal analyst

mary mccord is back. and former january 6th select committee member congresswoman joe lofgren of california is back with us. congresswoman, i start with you. this was some of the most masterful story telling the committee did in public hearings because, one, it's difficult to get any person that works at top at doj to speak in particularly illustrative terms. if you can remind our viewers the importance of mr. philbin stopping jeffrey clark as a key part of the plot? >> well, philbin along with others tried to stop clark from engaging in this coup-like activity. he knew him, and i think he was one of the people who suggested to rosen that we do -- that they do a sampling in whether there'd be mass resignations if the plot

went forward. so, yes, he played an important role. we did an informal interview with him at the committee so there isn't a transcript, but it basically just collaborated the things that donohue and rosen had told us. i think the one new thing in this testimony to the d.c. bar is the phrase that clark said, well, that's why we have the insurrection act but they were contemplating sending the army into cities around the country. we took a look at the insurrection act on the committee and referred it to the committees of jurisdiction because the rewrite is a massive effort that we didn't have the time to do, but it's an ongoing threat if you have a lawless president like trump. >> yeah, i mean that comes up over and over again. and i want to read this to you, congresswoman. this is what philbin said in response to clark's insurrection act comment. quote, i don't think i said

anything on it phone. i just thought that showed a lack of judgment, he said. triggering riots in every major american city you be to be sure what you're doing and have alternatives. in my estimation that's not the sort of situation we're talking about. there's also reporting from one of the great books that was written in the days and months and weeks after the trump presidency ended that general mark milley was witness to a conversation and i believe then defense secretary esper and stephen miller in the surrection act as well. this is tool they talked about deploying on the american people on more than one occasion. how much of this conversation do you think is central to the conversation president joe biden tried to have in his "state of the union" about nothing less than the future of our democracy is on the line in november's election? >> well, it's all very important. one thing i learned in the january 6th committee proceedings is to pay attention to what trump says because he

means it. he's already said that he intends to -- these are his words -- terminate parts of the constitution. you know, he has repeatedly talked about the insurrection act. you know, i think what we're looking at is a real threat to our system of government that trump poses. you know, he showed his colors on that on january 6th. he always intended the violence when all the other efforts failed. and we know that he never intended to abide by the voters' decision if it wasn't in his favor. so i think president biden gave a great speech at the "state of the union." i was there in the chambers. it was terrific. and i just hope people listen and pay attention to what the stakes are because it's serious. >> yeah, i mean jeffrey clark atop the justice department, betsey, is one of the things that is a very specific act that he already took that would be

very on brand with what he's promising in terms of what he is promising to do to doj and the fbi in terms of pursuing his enemies. let me show you republican congressman adam kinzinger's description of clark's tenure there. >> as part of the select committee's investigation we found that, well, mr. rosen, mr. donohue, and mr. engel were preparing for their meeting at the white house. jeff clark and the president were in constant communication beginning at 7:00 a.m. white house call logs obtained by the committee show that by 4:19 p.m. on january 3rd, the white house had already begun referring to mr. clark as the acting attorney general. as far as the white house was concerned, mr. clark was already at the top of the justice department. two hours later, doj leadership arrived at the white house. >> this is perhaps one of the

most dramatic parts of what was new to all of us, this almost line byline ticktock of the threat to walk out and of trump walking back from the brink here at doj. talk about some of the lines that were filled in today by philbin's testimony. >> one thing we've learned from this disbarment proceeding there's a very direct, very short line from subject matter that's come up and from actual plans that trump's allies including jeff clark himself are putting together right now for what the justice department would look like if trump gets re-elected. one issue rifrpered donohue talked about in these disbarment proceedings he talked to jeff clark you violated the white house contact policy, don't do it again. the white house contacts policy sounds very dry, but it's actually super, super important. important enough donohue brought it up in context with clark having these secret conversations with trump himself

despite what his own superiors at the justice department would have told him very much not to do. since clark has left government and the biden administration has begun, clark has been working with a conservative think tank called the center for renewing america to make plans for a potential new trump administration. and one paper clark authored is called the justice department is not independent. in that paper clark makes a detailed step by step argument against the existence of this white house contacts policy as it is currently written. that's a policy that dramatically constrains the ability of white house officials and their justice department counter parts to talk about what they're working on. it's been a bedrock piece of the way the justice department is shielded from inappropriate political influence by the white house. what clark got in trouble for when he was in doj was breaking that policy in addition to a whole bunch of other things. and what he now is advocating

for is dramatically changing it so the white house can have a much bigger hand in the inner workings of the justice department. these proceedings are helping us get a clearer picture of through lines that without a doubt would materialize if trump were to be re-elected. >> mayoraly, i don't know whether to laugh or cry at the fact there's been no legal accountability. jeffrey clark is the person who most clearly committed crimes. i believe his phones were seized very early on in the post-coup time period. but this is what the lack of legal accountability for unapologetic coup plotters look like. they're doing what betsey just described. they're planning how to destroy and dismantle the department of justice if trump's re-elected. what's going on? >> well, you know, one reason it took so long for these d.c. bar disciplinary proceedings to start is because jeffrey clark tried to remove his case, his d.c. bar disciplinary case to

the federal district court in d.c. arguing that former federal government lawyers weren't subject to d.c. bar disciplinary rules and making other arguments. that took some time to make its way through district court, which rejected those claims. that sent the case back down or back over to the d.c. bar disciplinary council, which is supervised ultimately by the d.c. court of appeals which is different from the d.c. circuit court of appeals. that can be confusing to people. even then jeffrey clark took an appeal of that to the d.c. circuit, which was also rejected. so, again, we're seeing just like we see with mr. trump time and time again attorneys -- you know, they are doing their jobs when they are using all of the levers that the justice system allows them to use, which we are seeing them use to create delay, right? he has a right under law to seek to remove that case and

eventually got remanded but only after he was given his due process. just as we see mr. trump, his attorneys take every single avenue possible to delay. and the way the system is built to make sure defendants get due process, to make sure that decisions aren't just rammed through and people have a right to be heard and have a right to prepare defenses, we're seeing that really taken advantage of in so many ways not just with mr. clark but donald trump. you know, the delays we now have arising out of cases like the fulton county case, like the january 6th case now pending appeal in the u.s. supreme court on the issue whether mr. trump is immune from criminal prosecution, that has just added more and more delay. so i agree that without the kind of accountability that we expect to see through these various trials and disciplinary proceedings, right now it seems mr. clark is proceeding unabated for his planning in what he

would say is a unitary executive in a coming term, which would be exactly -- raised exactly the points betsey mentioned. if you don't have any distance or separation between the white house and the department of justice, you can do exactly what mr. trump has been saying on the campaign trail he will do, which is essentially go after his political enemies, seek retribution for what he claims is the department of justice and actually mr. biden going after him. never mind that mr. biden there's no evidence at all that president biden has influenced the decisions made by the department of justice. >> mary, do you think jack smith should reexamine or revisit his decision not to charge the other unindicted coconspirators of his indictment of the supreme court if the supreme court successfully runs out the clock for trump? >> i think regardless of what the supreme court does that those charges should be brought against those unindicted coconspirators. it's something that i tend to think that the reason he brought

the case only against donald trump to begin with was at least partly to be able to get to a speedy trial. you know, when you have a seven codefendant case, we've been talking about delay. well, that really slows things down. and so i thought all along that at some point particularly if there was no accountability elsewhere that those people who have been named as unindicted coconspirators in the january 6th indictment should be charged. and i would expect that is something that jack smith and his team are seriously considering. and the timing of it is really the question. >> you know, liz cheney was i think maybe the most brutal and blunt. i'm not sure she would quibble with those words in saying that if donald trump and his accomplices are not held to account, there is no rule of law in america. how do you think that's going? >> well, i think all of us have some concern of the delays and what trump might do if he were

re-elected not only about destroying the constitution but giving himself a pass either by pardoning himself or having the cases be dropped. you know, liz and i worked very closely on the committee and both of us we don't agree on a lot of policy issues, but we do agree on the constitution and the rule of law. and it is disappointing that the attorney general waited so long. i think he didn't get started on the generals in the january 6th plot until the committee started showing publicly what had gone on. can that's part of the reason why it's so late in the season. but, of course, trump himself is using every trick in the book to make frivolous appeals and the like to drag it out. and i think it really undercuts peoples faith in the judicious system that a guy like that who incited violence to overthrow

the constitution and the country has even now not been held to account. so and the other thing is i think the public has a right to know whether he's going to be a convicted felon, is that who they're voting for? i think people -- you know, it's not part of the judicial system but just as a matter of what's right and wrong, people should be able to know that. >> yeah, it's extraordinary. and to betsey's point, he's running on dismantling the very institution that is -- is sort of haplessly trying to hold him to account. really important conversation. thank you so much, betsey woodruff swan, mary mccord. when we come back the new cochair of the rnc wants you to think the 2020 election coup is in the rearview mirror, a thing of the past. news flash to laura trump that is not what her father-in-law is saying on the stump every day. brand new reporting from inside the rnc suggests they're looking to fill the party with staffers who are election deniers. that reporting is next.

and we are expecting a live briefing from maryland officials on the search and recovery efforts after that bridge tragedy in baltimore. we'll bring that to you when it happens. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. before they even start. it's the #1 prescribed branded chronic migraine treatment. so far, more than 5 million botox® treatments have been given to over eight hundred and fifty thousand chronic migraine patients. effects of botox® may spread hours to weeks after injection causing serious symptoms. alert your doctor right away, as difficulty swallowing, speaking, breathing, eye problems, or muscle weakness can be signs of a life-threatening condition. side effects may include allergic reactions, neck and injection site pain, fatigue, and headache. don't receive botox® if there's a skin infection. tell your doctor your medical history, muscle or nerve conditions and medications, including botulinum toxins, as these may increase the risk of serious side effects. in a survey, 92% of current users said they wish they'd talked to their doctor and started botox® sooner.

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is it going to be the position of the rnc in 2024 that the 2020 election was not fairly decided or that it was stolen somehow? >> well, i think we're past that. i think that's in the past. we learned a lot. >> has laura trump met her father-in-law? she's there saying the 2020 election is for her in the past.

she's the newly minted rnc cochair. that was laura trump. she's already wildly, dramatically contradicting her father-in-law. and not only her father-in-law who faces criminal charges over his efforts to overturn the 2020 election but also the very committee she leads. nbc news is confirming earlier reporting in "the washington post" that the question of whether the 2020 election was stolen is coming up every day in job interviews at the rnc right now. "the post" reports this, quote, the question about the 2020 election has startled some of the potential employees who viewed it as questioning their loyalty to trump and as an unusual job interview question. that's according to people familiar with the interviews. the questions about the 2020 election were open ended, two people familiar with the questioning said, quote, if you say the election wasn't stolen do you really think you're going to get hired, one former rnc employee asked. a source familiar with those conversations telling nbc news that applicants, quote, were asked if the 2020 election was

stolen followed by why or why not in an effort to gauge their knowledge of current voting laws and procedures. wow. i guess that means mike pence and bill barr couldn't work at the rnc. i'm sure they're bummed. joining us founder of the site democracy docket, mark elias is here plus cnbc political analyst my old friend matt dowd is here. mark, this feels like a break glass moment. there's now going to be and this harkens back to rachel maddow's monologue monday night one of the two parties not just covertly working on trump's lie about 2020 but proactively hiring staff about 2024 that only believe the lie that bill barr sought to dispel lifelong republican chris krebs tried to dispel, chris christie, mike pence that 2020 was somehow stolen from donald trump. >> yeah, i actually think it's worse than a break glass moment. i mean first of all asking this question is not going to increase their talent pool

available. you know, it's not like they're going to get better staffed, more expert, digital staff, more experienced researchers, field operators where more experience by asking this question. so you have to ask, well, why are they doing it? and there's only two possibilities. the one is probably part of it, which is that michael watly was chosen to replace ronna mcdaniel because the president, the former president donald trump thought that ronna mcdaniel was insufficiently committed to the big lie and to election denialism. now, i think he sold her short in that regard, but that's what he thought. and michael watley is trying to prove himself to donald trump he's up to the task being even more ruthlessly anti-democracy than ronna mcdaniel was. that's option one. option two i think speaks to part of the truth on why i think this is break glass. he's trying to leave these staff no place to go, right? from this point forward if

someone works at the rnc whether they are the receptionist, the lawyer, the digital director, a fund raiser, whoever they are from this point forward you know one thing about them. they have pledged fealty to the biggest of the big lie, that the election in 2020 was false. they know that will have career implications for them. they know that will have implications for them on how they're perceived on the outside, and donald trump wants it that way. he wants these people believing that the only way through this is with him. >> well, what's amazing i mean, matt dowd, i -- the democracy piece is a tragedy, and it's why we're covering this story. and the political part of me says the reason there's no one named mastriano, lake or odd is in office is because they believe your political opponent is a loser. it's just so dangerous and where

do you come down on this? >> well, you know, this is fascinating to me because this is virus, this election denial and denying the election that happened in 2020 is a virus that donald trump injected into the body politic of the gop. and now that virus has caused this fever outbreak among a majority of republican voters who now believe it. two-thirds of republican voters in the last 20 polls say they don't think joe biden was legitimately elected. and they're reaping the repercussions of what this virus got injected by lying to the republican voters who believed it, unfortunately in the course of this. and now they're having to deal with it. and you're right about kari lake and all these candidates in michigan, all these candidates who believed this, ran on it, then lost because of swing voters and democrats who

basically, one, think it's crazy but, two, want to talk about other issues tat are important in their life. and why are we looking back in the rearview mirror at something we didn't believe anyway, and why aren't you talking about what i care about today? it doesn't surprise me they're doing this because they have a republican base now bought into this and has now been infected by this. and now we're having to deal with it in our body politic and in our democracy because of it. but it's all of donald trump's doings. and any candidate running in a swing state -- not in a red district or not in a red state, but any candidate running in a swing state is very -- republican -- is very, very vulnerable to what now has become the mainstream thinking of the republican party in this country. >> you know, and mark, the question as a litmus test for employees is only a steppingstone to the question that's a litmus test for candidates that will get money

for the party. the party that employs election deniers is only going to give money to republican candidates who believe said lie. this is could fundamentally reshape where the money flows heading into the general election. what are you sort of girding for because there's always more. >> absolutely. look, i have said for some time now that the only way that republicans can win in 2024 in trump's mind -- and i think he's right about this, is if they make it harder to vote and easier to chew. and everything they're spending money on is in that direction. they are building bigger more aggressive voter suppression operations. they are building more and more infrastructure to engage in mass voter challenges, enabling election vigilantes around the country to submit mass challenges, to disenfranchise voters they have never met based on data they have collected for the purpose of disenfranchising those voters. okay, so what we know is coming is a big effort to suppress the

vote and to then make it easier to cheat by then claiming that the -- by weakening the structures of democracy, by weakening the election official and theophiluses and by trying to overwhelm them and by trying to allow donald trump to essentially tilt the playing field in a way in which he was not able to in election day in the post election in 2020. but all of this is that strategy. and to matthew's point, like, there's no other strategy. there's not like a make our health care better strategy. there's no like let's lower the cost of prescription drugs strategy. it's all about this. >> i mean there's no more tax cut he's running on. he blew up the bipartisan immigration bill that had everything that republicans wanted -- agreed to by the biden white house already. i mean there is no policy. and i guess this was also foreshadowed for us when the republican platform became -- and it didn't have a lot of great stuff in it admittedly.

but it became no stuff, it just became trump. i mean just talk me through as someone who is expert in public opinion what the conversation with the country sounds like if you're on the side for stuff other than fealty to trump's legal defense fund and disenfranchisement. >> well, you know, it's fascinating. i'm glad you asked me that question. it's fascinating to me we're going to see an election unfold and this is interesting where the incumbent candidate for president, joe biden, is going to be talking about the future and what the country would look like with him continuing to be president and contrast that with what the country would look like and be like if donald trump was elected president. so you have the democratic nominee who is the incumbent running on the future while the republican party as evidence by laura trump and evidenced by donald trump is running continuing to on the past. and that to me is fascinating. normally it's the reverse. normally the incumbent is

running on look what i did and look at everything i did and vote for me again. and the challenger candidate is running on, like, i'm going to change your future and this is what i'm going to do. the exact thing now in reverse has happened. i want to speak to one thing marc said. the benefit that it country has right now is that in all these races where election deniers were defeated in places like michigan, in places like pennsylvania, in places like arizona, what has now firmed up and firmly in the hands of people that believe in democracies from secretaries of state to attorney generals to governors in all those states. all in contrast to election campaigns that were run in 2022, these people all run in fairly large margins especially michigan and pennsylvania in the course of this. but it is an interesting thing that we have an incumbent, joe biden, who's going to be running on the future of the country and donald trump and his party is going to be looking -- looking at the past. >> let me ask you something else, matthew, about the

structure of this race as it's shaping up as we have this conversation lifetimes away from election day, admittedly. but structurally as an incumbent you need the race to be a choice. i wonder if you can go even further and make it a referendum on the alternative in this instance, which is something that ends the american experiment in democracy. >> that's -- so you and i obviously worked on the 2004 bush campaign in this, and we know each other very well. that's exactly the race i would make it. i would make it a complete referendum on donald trump and what does it mean to our country if him and people like him are elected and what happens to our democracy. and what happens to people of color, and what happens to women, and what happens to poor people, and what happens to working class people? in all of you paint the picture of donald trump's america and what he wants it to be and then say -- ask the voters do you want that or not.

forget about me and forget about the fact you may not think i'm young enough or forget about or whatever the things they have about them, forget about that. do you want the america that donald trump represents? and is that what you want for your kids and your grandchildren? i would run it completely as a referendum on donald trump and what does that mean for our constitutional democracy. >> marc elias, as always you get the last word. >> well, first, i just want to say as the representative of the kerry campaign in 2004, the two of you are champions of democracy. and it's great to be on this show with you. and nicolle, with the work you do for democracy every day is so essential. >> thank you. >> but, look, this fight goes on every day, and we can't lose track of it. and that's one of the reasons why i wanted to say that. because it's too easy between now and november to get sidetracked into the other news of the day and lose track of the fact that every day donald trump

is spreading lies and misinformation about democracy. and that is what will be on the ballot come november. >> i'm going to ask you guys to stick around. i want to pull back the curtain on what's actually happening around here. we're awaiting a press conference from the scene of the tragic collapse of the bridge in maryland. as soon as it starts we're obviously going to go to that. still new information filtering in. while we're waiting we're going to continue to pick the brains of two of the smartest people we get to talk to, marc elias and matt dowds, so don't go anywhere. elias and matt dowds, so don't go anywhere >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: we came to her with service that fit her schedule. >> woman: you must be pascal. >> tech: nice to meet you. >> tech vo: we got right to work, with a replacement she could trust. we come to you for free! schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ wanna know a secret? more than just my armpits stink. that's why i use secret whole body deodorant.

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we have some really sad news to bring you. senator joseph leiberman has passed away. we have a statement to read you from his family. the former united states senator joseph leiberman died this afternoon, march 27, 2024, in new york city due to complications from a fall. he was 82 years old. his beloved wife and members of his family were with him as he passed. senator leiberman's love of god, his family, and america endured throughout his life of service in the public interest. senator leiberman's funeral will be held on friday. senator leiberman was a legend and a lion of the senate. he became an independent. he was a wingman i think he would have described himself to the late john mccain. he spent a lot of time with him

in the back seat of an suv. he represented the state of connecticut. his legacy is i'm sure in the views of some members of the democratic party mixed. he left the democratic party and became an independent, but his love of the truntry and his faith and the love of his family and his beloved wife could not be questioned by a single person. i want to ask you, matt dowd, what your thoughts are as these pillars of american political and civic life leave this earth. >> well, this is so sad. we're all learning it at the same time. and tragic in the course of this. i was lucky to have a chance to meet and know him when i worked for lloyd benson who was the democratic u.s. senator from texas when i worked with lloyd benson in 1998 in the campaign in the course of this. and then worked against joe

leiberman when he got on the ticket with al gore in 2000. i disagreed with him on a number of different things and paths that he's chosen and positions he's taken in the course of this. but there is no question in my mind having gotten to know him and then having watched him, the guy's a servant. he's a public servant. he's believed in public service. and people that might disagree with him and as you said democrats may have chastised him at times in this, there's no question in my mind that you cannot not say he has served in public office and done it in a very, very -- in a way with integrity in the course of this. and so i mean it is sad. i actually thought in 2008 i remember you were more intimately involved, i thought john mccain should have picked joe leiberman instead of sarah palin. who's to know? i think john mccain's

inclination was to, and i think he was talked out of it because he couldn't put quote-unquote a democrat on the ticket that would have a problem in the convention. who's to know what that would have meant without sarah palin raised -- to me sarah palin was donald trump a junior before donald trump came on the scene. sarah palin was in the course of this. sad day because you could disagree with him on things and criticize him in a partisan way. he was a public servant. >> marc elias, i know you two worked with him. he was one of the kindest people. and he and his wife had a love affair. he just oozed warmth towards anyone ever in his presence. he had wisdom. he had deep, deep reverence for this country and for those who serve again even as matt dwd is saying, even those he disagreed with even in the course of his career i think as he would say

some of that shifted. >> yeah, look, i knew senator leiberman because i was a young lawyer, and he was my client. and i worked very closely with his campaigns and at times with him. and he was -- he was -- people don't remember but he was a -- not just a giant in the senate, it had been a giant in the legal profession before that. he'd been in connecticut. and he was kind with his time. he cared enormously, enormously about how others were treated, his staff, people around him but also his constituents and ordinary americans were. he was devoutly religious, but he would walk to the capitol on saturdays when he needed to vote because he was committed to doing the public good. and sure later in this career he took a turn with the democratic party. he left and became an

independent, although as i would point out he caucused for most of that time, continued to vote for democrats as an independent. and was actually a -- you know, outside of the issues of foreign policy and iraq, the iraq war and other things, he remained a pretty liberal vote on many of the policy issues that democrats cared about the most for most of his senate career. so i will look back and always remember him as one of the senators who didn't just do the public's business when the tv cameras were on but did it when the cameras were off and treated everyone with dignity and humanity and may his memory be a blessing. >> tweeted the following in reaction to the passing of joe leiberman. quote, connecticut is shocked by senator leiberman's sudden passing.

he fought and won for what he believed was right and for the state he adored. high thoughts are with adassa and the entire family. joe leiberman was one of the kindest, gentlest advocates for what he truly believed. and i think as everyone has captured, he didn't betray his conscience, but he could make space for just about everybody. and i had the privilege of seeing his friendship with john mccain, which was one of the most beautiful friendships among men that i've ever seen. he truly loved him. and when john mccain was rattled by a poll or by a debate performance or by the debate performance of his running mate, the first person we called was joe leiberman. nothing settled john mccain like his friendship and the company of joe leiberman. but even just a call to say, you know, john, i love you.

and these two men said that, they said i love you to each other. >> he was a lovely guy. despite being a hard guy, he was very soft and very gentle. i remember the last time i saw him was right here in this studio. and he was indeed a true public servant. and he's representative of something that's an era that has passed. it's when parties had people -- it was the whole continuum. >> the whole thing is important. when the democratic party had conservative democrats, when the republican party had pro-choice members. it was a different era. >> so the most liberal republican was more liberal than the least liberal democrat and vice versa. he spanned that whole gamut, and that's one of the reasons he was a great politician because she didn't tow any particular line. he took a moral line. he evaluated things according to his values, and sometimes that was conservative, and sometimes that was liberal.

that was a better era for america when the parties were, in fact, went along this continuum between liberal and conservative. >> matt dowd, the sort of lost art of moderation is i think where rick is getting at. this was a senator who didn't just have convictions about policy and politics and national security, which is where i first sort of came to know him, but he had convictions about the fruitlessness of the ugly and cruel parts of our politics. it seems as that battle has gone the other way, and a lot of the cruelty in our politics are the absolute opposite of how senator leeblerman carried out his public and private life. >> yeah, i mean i think this conversation surrounding joe leiberman is -- i mean it's, again, we're honoring his memory by having this conversation, which he would actually -- would love to have, too. because i think what rick just

said was -- they're combined in total because what's happened in our country is all these great regional parties that we had -- we had a regional republican party in the north east and the west. we had a regional democratic party in the south and in the midwest. and all of that over time became this nationalized thing where you were everyone on one side had to look a certain way and be a certain way in that -- over that time. and what has been lost in that is what i think joe leiberman represented, one of the best things he represented, which was he was a consensus builder. he tried to convince you of his argument from either a moral standpoint or a factual standpoint. and it was about persuasion. it was about the art of persuasion, which is what our democracy ultimately depends on, is the ability for us not to just draw a line in the sand and

say you're bad, i'm good, but to basically say i have an argument i'm going to try it persuade you on and you're going to try to persuade me on you, and we're not going to question each other's intentions because we believe in a common set of facts and we believe in a common good. and so we can have this argument and try to persuade each other. that over the course of joe leiberman's life and now with his death is what's no longer exists in many, many ways in what's happening in congress in washington. at least in some ways in certain states in the country, but that's diminishing. and so this idea that he represented the art of persuasion, the art of consensus building and doing that in a way he could reach across the other person, across the aisle and do that, and they would actually accept facts you had to present and maybe move toward your position, is all but gone. >> yeah, he was also from this era. we don't have any footage that showed it, but he most often would throw his head back in laughter whether he agreed or disagreed.

i mean he was so quick to laugh and to find the humor in the ridiculousness of some our debates and divides. he caucused with democrats and voted with them on just about everything evfr after he became a republican and partnered with them on issues that mattered to him most. i want to add to our conversation nbc congressional correspondent ryan nobles. ryan, what's the reaction up there? >> reporter: well, nicolle, i can give you an idea how capitol hill is reacting to this, but just from a personal note -- >> please. >> -- my first connection with joe leiberman was as a young swing state reporter in richmond, virginia, in 2008 where the barack obama campaign had decided today make virginia a swing state and the city of richmond a focal point. and that required the mccain campaign to push back, to try to hold onto a state that traditionally had been a red state. and one of the things they would

do is provide us local reporters access to a sitting united states senator who's a democrat by the name of joe leiberman. and i remember as a young reporter fascinated by the idea that i would get time with someone who is of such important stature. and he was so charming, and he had really a remarkable ability to break down these complex issues in a way that i could then provide to our local viewers. so that was -- that was my personal connection to him way back when. but now in terms of the current environment that we're talking about and how this news will be received on capitol hill, i think i can echo a lot of the comments your panel has already provided, that there just aren't joe leibermans in washington anymore. there aren't these types of united states senators that are so public in their efforts to work across the aisle and find

areas of common ground and are willing to buck their parties on big thingsch and i don't mean that to suggest aren't republicans and democrats that work together particularly behind the scenes to get things done, but the kind of -- the relationship that joe leiberman and john mccain enjoyed during their time in the senate in such a public way, really kind of forced their colleagues to recognize that and to know there was going to be a coalition of centrist republicans and democrats that were going to be a major part of the conversation. and that really changed the course of a lot of legislation during that period of time. no doubt he was respected asked admired. and a senator chris murphy, in fact, just putting out a statement talking about how important he was to the state of connecticut and to the united states senate as an institution. but he's certainly a remnant of a bygone era. >> what's interesting is some of what is gone is not necessarily

moderation not being predictably hostage to, you know, a position or party line. he was very aware of his -- of the part of the job when he was a public servant representing the people of the state of connecticut. >> yeah, i think that's absolutely right. and part of that is, you know, the margins in the united states senate were not as tight as they are now, so that makes it more difficult for individual members to kind of buck party establishment. and we see that for instance with senator joe manchin of west virginia and senator kirsten sinema from arizona. but it's worth noting both of them are not going to be around the next time the congress returns after this 118th congress. so there seems to be less and less of an appetite for those bipartisan deal makers who are willing to stand up for the issues they care about and don't necessarily fall in line with

their party's orthodoxy. depending on your perspective, that may be a good or bad thing. the idea i think more than anything joe leiberman was able to do that in a way that didn't alieniate him from his colleagues. there are still many rank and file democrats that served with him during that period of time that i'm sure you're going to see an outpouring of support and remembrance from them because he was so well-respected. but it certainly -- you just -- the kind of moves that he would make in the united states senate are few and far between during this version of what we see in congress now. >> stay with us, ryan. i want to add to our conversation my friend and colleague the former senator claire mccaskill. claire did travel with senator leiberman and did order a fruit plate for him. i had the privilege of traveling with him.

he often traveled with his lovely wife. it was always to be in the company of someone who would sit up and talk until -- until you were done talking, just to be in the company of someone who would listen. it was to be in the company of someone who had deep convictions but wasn't afraid of someone else if their convictions led them to different conclusions. your thoughts today. >> you know, a lot of memories are flooding my brain right now about joe leiberman. and i think even though he bucked the party, first we've got to remember joe leiberman voted with the democrats and was a democrat because he agreed with the democratic party positions and the democratic party's values on the vast majority of issues. there were some differences, and he wasn't afraid to state that loudly and proudly when he

differed from his party. but he also gained a lot of respect by the way in which he did that. and he never would have been able to hold onto his chairmanship after endorsing john mccain. think about that, i mean he abandoned the democratic party at a very important moment in terms of a presidential race. and then he was not only welcomed back into the democratic caucus in the senate, he was allowed to retain his chairmanship of the homeland security committee. i was fortunate to serve on that committee with him, and, you know, write about how he listened. i will tell you a great story about joe leiberman. i was a freshman, i was nothing. i was nothing. i was somebody who was way down the dias from the chairman. after i'd been there about a month or so i said to joe leiberman i don't understand why all the democrats sit on one side of the committee and the

republicans sit on the other side. it seems like to me if we sat every other person democrat, republican, democrat, republican, we'd have an opportunity to get to people on the other side of the aisle, and we might just have things we could learn about each other, relationships that could develop, points of view we could share that would bring us together and get more done. and i want you to know joe leiberman did it. and i was like shocked that as this lowly freshman i had an idea. not only did he listen to the idea, he thought it was a good idea. and he actually made that change on his committee. and because of that change, i got to be much better friends with senator john warner. and john warner helped me on a number of things and i served with joe both on homeland security and armed services. he was a hawk. he believed very much in the sense of our nation and the armed services. and he was a devout man. he was a man of faith. he was a man who was not afraid

to talk about his faith and religion in the most public way possible. and obviously he was the first person ever to be nominated for president or vice president that was jewish. and that was something he was proud of. he and adassa were very observant. and i remember us having to wait for joe leiberman to somehow get to the chamber when we'd have votes on the sabbath because he would not, of course, ride in a car. and so there were many times that his faith was obvious but mostly when you had private conversations with him. he would talk about his faith and how god meant everything to him in terms of guiding him and his decisions he made on public policy. >> andrea mitchell has joined us. you were just with him. >> i was just with him, yes, a

month ago. the flight to and from munich and at the munich security forum where he and john mccain and lindsey graham, of course, were the three amygoes always because they cared so much and so committed across party lines. he was there for ukraine. his commitment to ukraine of course that was when navalny emphasis death was announced and zelenskyy was there. and lindsey graham wasn't there. the first time he had not attended when he wasn't in election cycle because he said on the floor of the senate donald trump had told him not to go. and so he didn't, and that's when the -- on the flights to and from munich he wasn't feeling that well. in fact, he had a cold. and he was determined to go. he was the same joe leiberman. and i do know from my own reporting knowledge and i know

we're getting close to the end of the hour, but i just know for a fact that lindsey graham told me in 2008 that he really wanted joe leiberman to be the running mate. >> like john mccain did. >> leiberman did it, and then john mccain wanted to do it. and that was before sarah palin. >> well, i keep thinking of the two of them now, you know, together, reunited as these just deep, deep, deep patriots, people who love this country. >> exactly. >> and who didn't hate people who disagree with them. just really quick in the last 20 seconds, what did it mean to people around the world to have joe leiberman there? >> to have joe leiberman, a man who crossed party lines, who had faith, who believed in principles and didn't bend and was so personable, and of course the love affair with adassa, the first person i want to talk to when i get back to washington.