compile that team. mookie betts is trying to stay as zen as possible amid all the eyeballs on that very expensive team there. >> money can buy you a lot. it doesn't necessarily buy you a championship as the mets well know. by the way, mets not playing today. i do love the mets. i love the mets. i was although the orioles. love the dodgers. texas -- i'll let you have texas. morgan chesky. >> reporter: i just love baseball. >> i love baseball, too. thank you so much. hope you teach your kid to love baseball also. congratulations on being a dad. very late, belated congratulations. that's going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york. a clarion call to, quote, walk back from the edge of the abyss. that's from conservative

stalwart liz cheney in iowa. she had scathing words not just for her own party for, quote, abandoning the constitution, but also for the united states supreme court, the nation's highest court, for potentially paving the way for donald trump -- the supreme court to grasp exactly what it is doing -- the supreme court realize what he's doing is a delaying tactic, and that the american people, it cannot be the case that a president of the united states can attempt to overturn --

preventing the american people from seeing that evidence in open court is itself suppression of the evidence. that the american people have a right to see that evidence and the court ought to recognize that. >> it cannot be the case that our justice system is incapable of holding him accountable, from liz cheney. she's talking to you, supremes. she's saying that there is a threat that the courts are now enabling trump from -- avoid all legal accountability and political accountability from the voters. more than three years after the insurrection, the voters do not have access to a full accounting of what happened, and they -- donald trump is one step closer

to the presidency now thanks to a political party that has nominated him and continues to enable him. here's what cheney had to say about that to her fellow republicans -- >> it created a situation where i think voters thought, well, you know, it must not be that he's that dangerous because if he were then, you know, you would have more people saying so. and look, i think the republican party leadership itself had to make a choice many times they were face with a choice between, you know, doing what was right, between furthering the democracy and the constitution or embracing donald trump. and they chose donald trump. >> cheney also saying that people should make no mistake, a second trump term will not look anything like the first trump term. there will be no more adults in the room. no one in the administration will stand in the way of trump shredding the united states

constitution. instead, trump, by his own admission, will install crack pots more than willing to do his bidding. >> it's important to recognize, for example, what it would mean to have a president who refused to abide by the rulings of our courts. and when, you know, you have a situation where the reason that our courts have the power that they do and that they have to have under our constitution is because the chief executive enforces their rulings. the courts can't enforce their own rulings. and all you have to do is listen to what donald trump says, look at the filings that -- that his lawyers have made in the immunity case and others. he, you know -- the moment that the court rules in a way he disagrees with, he will just ignore it. he'll refuse to abide by it. i think that's also important for people to understand, you

know, he will appoint people who will do his bidding, he will appoint people and if they are nervous about doing his bidding he'll offer them pardons. and he won't -- he won't leave office. i mean, just think about we know he tried once not to leave office, and he will have no incentive to guarantee a transfer of power if he's elected again. >> a high power republican joining a now-bipartisan all-hands-on-deck effort to protect our democracy and restrain donald trump from ever returning -- former trump white house communications director and host of "open book" anthony scarmucci here for a triumphant return. we tried this once many, many moons ago, many lifetimes ago, i think for both of us. we're thrilled to have you back. thank you. also joining our conversation, msnbc contributor and columnist charlie sykes is here.

with me at the table for the hour, democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college basil smikel. andy scarmucci, a pleasure to have you back. thank you for joining us. >> thank you. >> you've been a part of something that i really appreciate. you correct me if i get this wrong, but you seem to have tried to coax out of the corners or hiding some of the people who have been reluctant to enter the political fray, to offer their firsthand accounts of the danger that donald trump poses. why is -- and i have a little sense that that's a very difficult, painstakingly diplomatic process. why is it so hard for some of these people to speak out? they're some of the most alarmed people among us. >> well, they probably don't like death threats. i think we can start there. so that could be the number-one reason. but ultimately i think what the -- it has to do with the respect for the dignity of the constitution and not wanting to bring military leadership into the political fray.

but at the end of the day, what liz cheney is saying is so true and is so alarming that if we don't do it, i don't know who will do it. and i'm certainly worried about everything that she is saying. i just want to add one thing quickly. he will be way more organized this time. one of the reasons why that insurrection failed is that he didn't have the organizational skills. he doesn't have the executive management skills to run an insurrection properly. but he now has willing participants on that campaign that are way more organized than him. and so do not underestimate that and do not underestimate the effectiveness going forward if he should somehow win, which i predict he won't. >> he is also, anthony, studying best autocratic practices. he spent time with orban and is modeling a second term around something distinctly un-american. what is your sense of what if

any preparations are under way in the private sector to prepare for what happened to the private sector in hungary as orban ascended? >> well, listen, i think it's a very good point. he wants to be in that axis of auto crazy. he signals to dictators that he's one of them. he's looking for their help in terms of understanding their profile. what they do to press freedoms, what they do to -- ultimately becomes a cleptocracy. so he's there with participants. he's got their playbook. frankly he has his own playbook. he couldn't believe he lost the election. and lest anybody forget, he knows, i want to repeat this, he knows he lost that election. he tells the insiders that all the time. he just likes to keep that ruse going so he can get willing

participants to fund his legal expenses and fund the campaign. but again, good news, money's drying up for him. lots of business leader don't want to be affiliated with him. and the small donors are drying up, as well. and that bodes well for the president. >> i mean, you just described, you know, really one of the most cynical things about politics. he's spoofing his own or punking, whatever word you want to use, his own base. that he knows what we know, which is that joe biden won fair and square. and the people like lifelong republican chris krebs and the attacks on the -- they're all because he needs to keep the lie going, wanting to raise small dollar donations from the base and to keep them enraged. do you think that -- what is the best way to make sure that they know that he doesn't believe the things he tells them? >> well, we got to go outside of the mainstream media. we've got to go directly to them. i plan on spending a lot of time in the swing states this fall.

conservative talk radio is a good place for it. i remember i grew up in a blue-collar neighborhood. a lot of these guys it's hard to outmaneuver me in places where i grew up. and we got to talk to them straight. and you know, since you're talking about republicans that have failed the country, let's just mention kevin mccarthy before you turn to another guest. i mean, this spineless guy, kevin mccarthy, who i gave money to as a fellow republican and i know personally, could have put trump through the ropes on the 7th of january. he had the votes to impeach him and roll it into the senate, and they could have convicted him there. and we would not see the likes of donald trump. then we can talk about how we're going to heal the republican party and restrengthen our democracy. but because of his profile and cowardice, we're here now. we'll beat him, but it's going to be a tough time this fall. but it just goes to show you the difference between profiles in courage, liz cheney, profiles in

cowardice, kevin mccarthy. >> yeah. charlie, let me bring -- i feel like we need more than two hours to do the whole kevin mccarthy profile in cowardice. i mean, kevin mccarthy, i think, charlie, it's fair to say invokes almost as much ire on the part of liz cheney as does donald trump. some of the reasons anthony's articulating, that chief among his enablers and his resurrectors is kevin mccarthy, and but here we are. i want to play a little bit more liz cheney. first, your reaction to her very direct, frontal calling out of the united states supreme court. >> well, first of all, just imagine having a time machine and going back ten years and realizing that the number-one critic of a republican president would be liz cheney and her father dick cheney. that they would be playing this role, and that she is issuing a clarion call. i think that what liz cheney is doing is saying this is not just a normal political difference of

opinion, this is a constitutional crisis in the making. that's why she's addressing the supreme court. think through the implications of you enabling this man. the moment donald trump, if he were to be elected, takes the oath of office, this country is plunged into a constitutional crisis. and her warning that he wouldn't leave office peacefully, i know that people might roll their eyes and say, okay, you're getting ahead of yourselves, but soberly let's look at what donald trump did in the past. we already know he refused to acknowledge his original defeat. he tried to overturn it. he summoned a mob to overturn it. he then very publicly called for suspending the constitution so that he could be restored to power. he told people including like mo brooks that he wanted to be reinstated to the presidency, which of course is a constitutional impossibility. now he did this when he was out of office. what does he do when he gets

back into office? and the point that liz cheney is making is that the trump 2.0 would be exponentially more dangerous. he would install people around him, and there's no reason to believe that he is going to respect the result of the 2024 election or the 2028 election any more than he did the last election. and then we have to ask, well, who's going to stop him? is it going to be a republican congress? would it be the right-wing media? and then all eyes would have to turn to the courts. so what she's signaling to the court is you're going to have to draw a line sooner or later because we know what this man is capable of. you know what's coming, and you need to act now. >> let me show you some more of that argument that she's making. this is her talking about this three-week period and the crackpots and what not. let me play that for you, charlie. >> one of the individuals has talked about how he wants to --

wants trump to appoint him to be attorney general for three weeks, and at the end of three weeks he's going to leave washington with a pardon from trump. and he's laid out his plans for those three weeks which include indictments, detentions. i mean, very -- it's chilling, and it's tempting to listen to these people and think, well, they're crackpots, and they are. but a crackpot with power is really dangerous. so i think it's important to take seriously and literally what they're saying. >> what i think is important -- and i took this as a note to the media, as well, charlie, is we can laugh all we want about how insane some of the people are, but we're not -- she's saying the debate's been had, yes, they're crackpots, they're insane, they're crazy, and in power they'd be -- they'd represent the death of democracy. and i think it's an important point to move the conversations away from covering them as sort

of carnival acts and really looking at what they say they're going to do. and what she's describing is really perhaps the most harrowing part of the policy blueprint for trump 2.0. it's not just dismantling doj, it's turbocharging and it turning it into trump's person police. >> she's right. the guy she's fwaug talking -- talking about is a crackpot. a clown with a flame blow to -- flame thrower. still has a flame thrower. one of the things we've seen is the speed with which something that is inconceivable or sound like a joke becomes a real threat. do we all remember where we were when we heard that somebody was suggesting that the vice president could simply refuse to count the electoral votes and we rolled our eyes and thought that can't be serious. well, now we know what a close run thing it was. so yet the fact that people are saying i'm going come in, he i'm going to override the constitution, and then what are you going to do about it?

if the president pardons me, i can do it, and i can get away with it, and nobody is going to be able to stop him or me. and you know, while we're laughing, go, actually that could happen, right? and i think that's where what she -- that's the point she's making. >> anthony, where is the -- where are the voices in the business community? trump cares a lot about tom brady. trump cares a lot about the media and the titans of business and finance. and if he were to see that they are not pleased with the idea of america's economy being destroyed by a move toward autocracy where winners and losers are picked as capriciously of a jon stewart segment could tank a stock based on what a kid retweets from an account. where is the outcry and the sort of demand that for all of the sort of back and forth in our politics we remain on a

democratic path? >> well, i think you have to take it back to history, nicolle. unfortunately business leaders have a tendency to like people like mr. trump. it's sad to say. they see him as pro business. and what ends up happening is they acquiesce, they don't want to be in the spotlight. they don't want to get caught in his cross hairs. they think it hurts their job standing or will threaten their position relative to corporate boards. so they sit and wait, and then they quietly say, well, a trump presidency would be good for business. and certainly the trains did run on time in the 1930s, the early 1930s in europe, and then what invariably happens when you get authoritarian leadership you get the cleptocracy, the minions around the leader that are doing well. the rest of the place is not doing so well. right there in the leader's playbook, they have to resort to some level of violence like a vladimir putin to galvanize

people. and so it starts out okay for businesses, and it ends terribly. and if there are business leaders listening to your show, i want to remind them the rule of law is what is allowed for capital to flow into your business. the united states has the most predictable and most consistent common law. you get an authoritarian leadership in position that's revoking things and offering pardons to people, you're going to rescue the capitalist system in the united states and turn it into something that you don't even recognize. so i really do hope these people wake up as we get into the summer and fall. >> not only do they watch, they dodged some of my calls. i've been trying to report this out myself, maybe you can help me. what are you doing? because i would bet my last dollar there's someone in some locked room studying the economies of hungary and maybe russia, but hungary's probably a more apt parallel, of what happened to industries. and i have to say that orban is an organized autocrat, a

methodical one. trump would be a chaotic autocrat and capricious one. the idea of seeing some ceo kid's tweets is not a farfetched one. he's easily sleighted or re-tweet of michael co-own or from "the daily show." he's fixated on personal slice and the idea that that would be anything other than disastrous for commerce and capitalism, it feels like they're asleep at the switch. do you have a sense that any of these conversations are starting? >> i would say not yet. in fact, if anything, you know -- because i speak publicly in a lot of different places, i was in chicago last night with a pro-biden group, but briar to them i was -- prior to them i was asked to speak to a pro-trump group. and they're deaf ears. they're hearing the flywheel of right-wing conservative media, and they're hearing the nonsense related to joe biden. lots of these lies related to hunter biden. and it's hard to break through. so i would say to you and other

people that are listening here it's one day and one step at a time. i'm going to do my job or my part in this. i certainly -- love liz cheney for what she's doing. we'd like to get paul ryan out there. secretary esper has told people publicly that -- i may not like president biden's policies, but we can deal with policies that we disagree with in three or four years as opposed to what mr. trump could do to the nation. and so we got to get more people out there like that. i think the good news is that if you look at the nikki haley exit polling, lots of those people say no way, never, i'm not voting for donald trump. we've got to reinforce that because you know and i know without the crossover vote, you did this for a living, if you don't get that crossover vote from john mccain into george w. bush, he doesn't win the presidency. hillary clinton did not get that vote from bernie sanders, but barack obama got it from hillary

clinton. and we have to prevent donald trump from getting that vote while the democrats are unifying and standing with the democracy, we've got to split the republicans and got to make sure that these people either don't vote or they vote for joe biden with a statement that they're there to preserve the democracy, they are patriots first and partisans last. >> i want to turn this over to basil and really understand how -- again, i've described myself as a shelter puppy feeling welcomed and lucky to be taken in by the democratic coalition. but i want to -- i think we need to get tactical and talk about how you keep the democratic base animated with all these republicans sort of -- with good intentions trying to help. no one's going anywhere. still to come, president biden is in new york today. he rode in on air force one with his former boss, former president barack obama. the two of them will be joined by a third member of that special club, another former

president, bill clinton, for a big event later tonight that is on a personal note doing not very nice things to the traffic situation in new york city. but it could net the biden re-elect $25 million bucaroos. a hearing in the elections interference case in fulton county, georgia. lawyers for the ex-about the are saying he is protected under the amendment. prosecutors say his lies are not on trial it's that he lied to the government and that that is not illegal. later in the broadcast, we'll have the architects of the failed 2020 coup finally being held to account years after a federal judge said he likely committed felonies. we're of course talking about john eastman, his client donald trump, co-conspirators to derail the peaceful transfer of power. that news ahead and much more when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. ntcoinues after a quick break. y, mike's feeling like himself again. but even though time has passed, his risk of a second attack hasn't. mike is still living in the re.

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in a number of these primaries what we saw was in some instances close to 30% of the republicans say they won't vote for donald trump. and so although he won, that's a -- that is not a basis on which someone should go into a general election feeling any comfort about being able to prevail in the general. >> basil, the three of us are here to help. and the democratic coalition should get credit every day for sort of -- for elevating these voices, for elevating the voices that are talking about the threat that donald trump represents to the constitution.

but how do you make it part of an active, enthusiastic voting coalition next november? >> that's a really important question because it's interesting because anthony is someone who i may not have ever intersected, right? liz cheney, the same thing. but right here, right now as part of a mission to try to make sure that donald trump doesn't get into the white house we have to be together, right? even if we part ways on a whole host of other policy issues, we have to recognize that in this moment we have to be part of a strong alliance to make sure that this deed is done. and i think that's where joe biden and the democrats are really -- need to get the credit because they've elevated voices like liz cheney. you have anthony on. but we've also elevated the stories of, for example, the justins in tennessee that were expelled from the state house. i've been hear the mayor of baltimore talking about hey, we've got this bridge collapse that i'm dealing with, but by the way i have to deal with people subtly calling me the "n"

word and what that means not just to the city of baltimore but to every big city and every mayor like me across the country. i think what the party has done is educate on not just the overt actions but the subtle actions and why that's important. i also go back to my high school chemistry class. energy is neither created nor destroyed. so even as we're seeing people out there on january 6th and we say let's not -- trump doesn't make it back into office, where is that energy going to go? it's going to go somewhere. there's going to be a librarian not sharing certain books with our kids. there are going to be doctors underprescribing medication for people who look like me. we have to be vigilant about all of those public-facing people that were supporting donald trump that are going to go somewhere even if he's not in office. and that actually takes a sort of consistent awakening from all those that care and are concerned, but for right here

right now it's up to the democrats to pull this coalition together and call it out every time they see it. >> what is -- anthony was talking about getting on conservative talk radio, and that's like a great -- great thing to deputize people with credibility in those forums. the thing about the biden record is it is uniquely popular among trump's base. the infrastructure became -- i'm sure anthony's tenure included a few meetings about trump's desires to pass an infrastructure bill. i mean, there are parts of the biden -- what's interesting about biden is one of the reasons they haven't figured out how to smear him and one of the reasons that anywhere you go you're fielding questions about his son and his age is because they haven't been able to land on anything else. the agenda is not particularly alienating, if you look at what biden has actually led. how do you sort of pull back from the crazy things on the right and focus back into the things that are, you know, so popular trump tried to do them? >> it's -- to me it goes back to storytelling and messaging. we were talking earlier. one of the things that's been so

interesting about the trump era, if you will, is how our day-to-day lives have changed. >> yeah. we were talking about that in the break. >> become more nervous, tense, constantly checking what's going on -- >> always on my phone. >> damage control. what's happening this morning? and i think what's going to be important for the country is if we start thinking about better leadership, better governance, how that actually starts to change the trauma, right? it's -- it becomes an art to it, that we went through this thing and how difficult and terrible it was, but now we can breathe a little bit more. we can actually start focusing attention on the stuff that we used to pay attention to and that does really matter in our day-to-day lives. and i think that's what the biden administration -- again it's not getting into the legalese, it's not getting into the day to day of what trump is doing, but it's focusing on those values. the democrats have turned into a party of values that i think we always were, but in some ways conceded that to the right. but it's this re-forming of the

coalition that the democratic party is a party of values, and that's what biden's been great at talking about. >> anthony, what makes you so confident that trump will fail? >> that for me? >> yeah. what makes you -- >> i'm sorry. >> you worked it in that you didn't think he'd be successful. most people say that privately, but not -- not publicly. and that may be who you are. tell me why. >> no, there's three main reasons why he's going to fail. the first one, he's very, very self-destructive. the ultimate narcissist, has to prove to everybody he can do it on his own. he signals to nikki haley voters that he doesn't want them. he signals that nikki haley donors, that he doesn't want them. so he's about this unity that's perfect in a race like this because he actually needs those voters to win. so that's number one. number two, he's running out of money. he can't figure out a way to raise the money because the rubes he's already picked over and the ceos, they may like him,

but don't want to give him a lot of money. he has a small fundraiser going with a small cavalcade of billionaires that's not going to raise that much money. the president today an example, is eclipsing that. and the last reason, the most important reason, is that the angels, nicolle, the angels have always been on the side of america. and i do believe that this country's going to pull it out at the last minute and save itself from this type of a nightmare. and it's going to require all of us to get out there and do our best to explain this to the most amount of people that we can come in contact with. >> yeah. you're -- increasingly i hear from people who say you got to get the people that don't sit down and take in news every day, you got to get to people where they are. and they're busy, they're in their cars. i appreciate the talk radio point. anthony, great to have you back. charlie sykes, great to see you always, my friend. basil sticks around. next, while donald trump is fighting for his legal life in courtrooms across multiple states, president joe biden is

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meet the jennifers. jen x. jen y. and jen z. each planning their future through the chase mobile app. jen x is planning a summer in portugal with some help from j.p. morgan wealth plan. let's go whiskers. jen y is working with a banker to budget for her birthday. you only turn 30 once. and jen z? her credit's golden. hello new apartment. three jens getting ahead with chase. solutions that grow with you. one bank for now. for later. for life. chase. make more of what's yours. anthony scaramucci just reported about the fundraising gap between the ex-president and president joe biden was something that would bother trump before. it's about to get a lot worse

because later today president joe biden is holding what his campaign is already calling the most successful political fundraiser in american history. the star-studded event is expected to raise $25 million. it will bring together former presidents barack obama, bill clinton, as well as a host -- late-night host stephen colbert. the expected amount of $25 million is more than half of the $44.8 million that trump and the rnc currently have in the bank. joining us at the table, national co-chair for president biden's 2024 campaign mitch landry. nice to have you here. >> thanks for having me. >> we should do a new orleans segment down the road. i want to talk about the president today. and i know he knows and you know it isn't just money, but money makes a lot of things easier in terms of message. he seems to have landed on this message at the "state of the union" of really trying to broaden the coalition, quoting ronald reagan, saying that -- it almost feels like soul of the nation has taken another step and that this campaign is about

saving our democracy, protecting u.s. interests at home. tell me what resonates the most for you. >> what's so critically important to remember is that elections are about choices. it's about the past versus the future. it's about values, and it's critically important. when president biden ran for office he said i'm going to help restore the soul of the nation, i'm going to invest in the american people, i'm going to lower costs, i'm going to impact people's freedoms. and he's bringing the receipts. so as you look at the choice, so in november the choice is going to be donald trump who basically thinks about himself and seeks revenge and retribution, as your previous panel talked about, or joe biden who lifts people up, brings people together, and includes people. and fund raisers and raising money is an indication of how you're doing with that. if you look at the split screen, president obama, president biden, president clinton, vice president, presidents are going to be together raisings money. let's stop on that. one thing we don't see is donald trump raising money with his vice president who during the insurrection had people that he called to the capitol calling for the death of his vice

president, and he never came to the aid. and that vice president amazingly, never happened in the history of the country, has said to the people of america i can't vote for that guy. liz cheney, of course, who is a daughter of vice president cheney, and in her own right has been a spectacular person and a republican has said, listen, joe biden's right about democracy. so this really isn't about conservatives and liberals, democrats or republicans anymore. this is literally about saving our democracy and saving our freedoms. and if you don't have the institutions, the things that the founding fathers thought is the -- is the secret sauce of what america makes america great, then you literally cannot have a country. when you have 17 cabinet members that work for you, who are secretaries of defense, chiefs of staff, people that lost sons and daughters in wars, come out and say i'll work with that guy, don't be for him again, the bells have to go off. president biden is going to speak to that. he also has an incredible record to run on, and think about this -- $25 million, it's the largest

fundraiser in the history of american politics. while donald trump can't hardly raise any money, the rnc's laying people off. donald trump is looking under the sofa for a quarter to make bond with. there's a clear choice here. i think the american people are going to step up to the plate and do the right thing. >> let me ask you a structural question. when you're an incumbent -- and again let's stipulate that perhaps everything i knew about politics is inoperative. but it used to be that when you were an incumbent it needed a choice, not just a referendum. it feels like not only is this a contrast election between trump and biden, but trump and anthony scaramucci who worked for him described him as a narcissist. he won't let it be a referendum on biden. he needs everything to be about him. so there's a structural matter. how does trump's demand for attention and -- how does that aid the biden efforts to make sure that the choice is in front of voters? >> first of all, bring it on. happy to talk about how horrible donald trump is as a human being. if you think about his entire life, just think about it simply

like this -- whether it's in his personal life, his business life, in his public life, donald trump has used his power to help himself and to hurt and abuse everybody else. so you know, we joke a little bit about him looking for a quarter to make his bond. but don't forget why he has to make bond. he has to make bond because two courts have already found that he was a sexual abuser, defamer and business fraud. that's before you get to the other criminal cases. here's the thing -- the american people have to make this determination. they're the jury. and we have to decide what kind of country we want to be. and the choice could not be clearer in terms of what the values of america are. i agree with anthony scaramucci that at the end of the day this is going to be hard, a knock down, drag-out fight. we are not bringing a knife to this gunfights. not this time. if you're listening to liz cheney and republicans who, you know, ronald reagan, you know, george bush, republicans who are saying the fate of our democracy, the fate of our children's ability to live in a free world, is on the line.

i think people are going to stand up and be counted this time. the president, president biden, on top of that has an incredible record to run on. 15.5 million jobs, lowest unemployment rate. stock market at four all-time high. understanding that people are still under intense financial pressure. and we're in a world. uncertainty. and we need to bring stability to that and calm. here's one thing that people don't pay much attention to -- only one cabinet member for joe biden left because they got a better job. the rest are there. day to day the government has been working and functioning. nobody's waking up like you did during trump going what the hell did that guy do today that i have to be worried about or embarrassed about. and i think people are going to understand that and know that going forward. >> googling the 25th amendment, the first time i was like, wait, how does this work? i forget. let me ask you one more question. do you view it helpful and will you seek the endorsement of republicans who make that point that trump's -- >> 100% -- from, we're a big tent party, and we're a big tent country. the one thing that's different about joe biden than donald

trump, if you criticize joe biden he's got big shoulders. he really works with everybody. he passed four of the largest pieces of legislation, the infrastructure bills, the largest bipartisan law that we passed in the last 50 years. if you criticize donald trump, he actually kind of wants to get s.e.a.l. team since and kill you, actually and literally. he want the supreme court that he hand picked to give him a pass. when he came down the elevator and said he could choose somebody on 5th avenue and folks would let it go, he meant it. that's what folks have to be keyed in on. i think most americans are going to wake up and say i wouldn't let that kid coach my little league team much less be the president of the united states. >> could we keep the -- our viewers have an insatiable appetite to hear the view from i think there's a lot of fatigue with all of the coverage of trump. so can we keep the conversation going? >> 100%. let's get it on. >> thank you so much. good luck tonight. >> thank you. next for us, a hearing in fulton county, georgia, today, the first one in months that actually has to do with the substance of this case. the very latest on the

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when my doctor gave me breztri for my copd, things changed for me. breztri gave me better breathing, symptom improvement, and reduced flare—ups. breztri won't replace a rescue inhaler for sudden breathing problems. it is not for asthma. tell your doctor if you have a heart condition or high blood pressure before taking it. don't take breztri more than prescribed. breztri may increase your risk of thrush, pneumonia, and osteoporosis. call your doctor if worsened breathing, chest pain, mouth or tongue swelling, problems urinating, vision changes, or eye pain occur. ask your doctor about breztri. what did we do before viasat satellite internet? well... we borrowed. yes!...we borrowed. we borrowed the internet. we'd borrow from the library, the local coffee shop, our friends down the road. i think i got a strong signal here. but that was before viasat came out with all their new plans. yup. lots of internet now. plenty for everyone. no more borrowing. more data. faster speeds. available where you live.

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activity with criminal intentions. >> the first hearing in many weeks in the fulton county election interference case today and the first in months to focus on the substance of the case against donald trump and his co-defendants. focused on a bold claim by the ex-president that his lies about the 2020 election are protected under the first amendment, as political speech, turn to the constitution when you shred the constitution i guess. what you just heard there was a prosecutor pushing back saying that the ex-president does not have an unfettered right to say what he wants if it's done in the commission of crimes. judge mcafee also appeared skeptical of trump's claim, making the point that there are some crimes that can be committed solely through one's speech. there was no decision on the motions or trial timing when the hearing ended. but fani willis says she is ready to move full steam ahead toward trial. joining our coverage, former u.s. attorney and deputy assistant attorney general harry litman, basil's back with us.

explain this distinction he's making. i think we're all so -- not conditioned to the line, but we've seen it before. i think 35,000 lies told by trump, according to "the washington post" lie tracker, by the end of his first term. talk about how lying to the government is different, harry. >> yeah. look, for his whole presidency he woke up lying and lied all day. but this is not about lying. the -- the indictment as smith actually points out in another case, you can tell falsehoods, that's not what he's being prosecuted for. it's obstruction and conspiracy and the rico count. you know, when they badger pence to -- with false -- with lies about his powers, it's not that they're false, it's that they're trying to get him to obstruct the election. when they badger election officials with false claims, it's not that it's false, it's that they're trying to obstruct

and keep george -- get georgia to overturn the rival results. so it's a very routine, old argument, and judge chutkan in particular sort of word for word including the main case they were using here and demolished it in four pages in her december 1st opinion. it's just -- you know, a very blunt and wrong-headed distinction. it's not about being false, it's about doing crimes which often happen through words. >> harry, it is parts of where the trump defense and the trump politically message intertwine. this is and the trump political messaging intertwine. this is usually his defense against gag orders as well. i need to say these things for my campaign, if only threatening the daughter of a judge is part of your campaign. ludicrous on their face. i wonder if you're confident that in the courtroom those arguments will not be

successful. >> yeah, i'm pretty confident. mcafee is a thoughtful, meticulous judge. and it's not even same he's arguing for some right in the public sphere to say false things. it's much farther what he's being charged with, which is using false statements to obstruct the election, badger mike pence and the like. i think mcafee, you know, after a couple months of choppy waters just wants to get things, you know, smooth sailing again. he's got like half a dozen trump motions to dismiss out there. it's a fairly, you know, big one in terms of its constitutional claim. and i have little doubt that he -- especially the part you played up front, really appears the specious arguments, and i don't think mcafee will be fooled at all. >> basil, fani willis had to

respond to jim jordan yesterday and said nothing you do will derail the efforts of my staff and i to bring the election interference prosecution to trial. >> you see what they've done already discrediting her and defaming her, and she handled it like a pro. a judge ruled a judge or republican vice-chairman voted illegally nine times while serving probation for forgery charges. this writes itself, right, because all this attention is being placed on individuals by the democratic coalition and also public servants trying to hold them accountable. meanwhile all the dirt is being done by the other side. >> we have to sneak in a quick break. no one goes anywhere. we'll be right back. ck break. no one goes anywhere we'll be right back.

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oh! can i see that? ♪ happy birthday... ♪ it's a people cake! don't panic. gift easy with gift mode, new on etsy. harry, i want to ask you about the story we love at this hour. and it was liz cheney calling out the united states supreme court for their role. >> yeah, look, it's hard to overlook. when they did the colorado case they were on double time, and they issued it very tellingly the day before super tuesday. here they're -- they've left the argument for the very last day of argument, and they seem to be

basically indifferent to at best kind of ignoring the timing out there. and there was a two-week debate within the court before they decided to take it. that's going to be interesting when we learn what it was. but the court as a whole, i think, is refusing to see the fire that's in front of the country and the need to have resolution, whether you're for trump or against him before november. i think that's what congresswoman cheney means, and in that sense they are abetting the overall delay strategy of the former president. >> for decades republicans use the court as a motivating issue. now i don't know there are many things more motivating than the removal of a right to make your own choices about bodily atonmy and reproductive health care. i think liz cheney just gave that sort of democratic coalition another reason to vote against the court. they have deprived the country of the right to see trump stand

trial. >> that's absolutely right. and it also -- and it gives so much more weight and heft to what joe biden did in the "state of the union" saying, look, what you did, you unleashed a coalition and a force that you never intended, but you did it. and now we're in a prime position to kind of ride this through the election. to anthony's point before, trump is bad for business. he has broken up families, he's broken up friendships because we've just had this trauma associated with him being in the white house. who wants to go back to that? and that's the message of liz cheney and of joe biden. >> could you have predicted you'd utter that sentence five years ago that is the message of liz cheney and joe biden? crazy, crazy times. thank you so much for spending time with us this hour. we're really grateful. up next for us accountability for an attempted coup, that story and much more news still to come when

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you could also do what the florida legislature was prepared to do, which was adopt a slate of electors yourself. when you add in the mix of statistical anomalies and sworn in evidence and video evidence of outright election fraud, i don't think it's just your authority to do that, but quite frankly i think you have to duty to do that, to protect the integrity of the election here in georgia. >> if you add up nothing, nothing, and nothing, there's still no fraud, john. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 now in new york. there is a straight line one could trace from the moment that happened to donald trump's failed insurrection and the violence that erupted on january 6th. mere days after that testimony and from the georgia state senate, months before the capitol attack, john eastman signed on with the trump

campaign. for the next few weeks that crazy legal theory laid out in the memo often described by members by both political parties as the, quote, blueprint for the coup took root not just inside trump's inner circle and trump's head but among his supporters as well. completely unconstitutional, imagined, and lacking any legal merit eastman suggested the existence of what urin reality fraudulent electors, which you just heard him describe, it gave mike pence the ability to dismiss election results across a number of different states and steal the election from joe biden and hand it without evidence or merit to donald trump. eastman, the unnamed coconspirator 2 was not charged in jack smith election interference case. while he was indicted in the georgia racketeering case for his scheme there one cannot help the architect of the coup has thus far avoided any accountability.

that might be ending. now in a 128-page ruling a judge in california has recommended that john eastman be stripped of his law license, disbarred for persistently lying, for elevating favorable claims that were provably false while ignoring facts to the contrary all in an effort to keep trump in power. from that ruling, quote, in sum, eastman exhibited gross negligence by making false statements about the 2020 election without conducting any meaningful investigation or verification of the information he was relying upon. the evidence presented demonstrates that eastman despite claiming sincere belief deliberately propagated false claims about the 2020 presidential election, thereby breaching his ethical duty as an attorney to prioritize honesty and integrity. eastman will surely appeal this decision in front of the california supreme court before his license is revoked in a matter of days. his lawyers insist his actions were based on reliable legal precedent. in the meantime his license is

inactive, which prohibits him now from practicing law. given how slowly accountability has found donald trump and his cohort more than three years after the deadly capitol insurrection perhaps this is a welcome reminder of the old proverb that the wheels of justice turn slowly but grind exceedingly fine. it's where we start the hour with some of our friends. former assistant attorney maya wily is here, miles taylor is back, and writer and editor for protect democracy, our friend amanda carpenter is here. let me read something. i remember where i was when this happened. in march of 2022 district judge david carter ruled that eastman and trump may have knowingly committed felonies. that's his words, felonies. why are we still trying to figure out basically what the meaning of felonies is, miles? >> well, i actually think,

nicolle, it's stunning that it took until 2022 for something like that to happen because i think it's important to set the table here for folks about how far back this goes. it took donald trump almost four years to realize that his kookiest schemes were being stopped by the lawyers because when we would go to the oval office and trump would propose something absurd like trying to shoot at civilians at the border or, you know, rounding people up in democratic sanctuary cities that we didn't necessarily have the authority to do, we would walk out of that room and usually rely on the lawyers to go to donald trump afterwards and say this is not legal, we cannot do it. it took donald trump years to learn that those were the ultimate people saying no. it was people that most americans have never heard of like pat cipollone and pat philbin who we called the pats in the white house council's office, john eisenberg at the national security council. these lawyers would ultimately

draw the line on trump's kookiest schemes. it took them until his fourth year to realize that. that's why the sydney powells and john eastmans and jeffrey clarks suddenly got all this power in the end because trump realized, oh, i need to replace the lawyers willing to think about the law as fungible rather than the law as immutable. and that's ultimately what he got. now, unfortunately it's taken way too much time for that accountability to catch up. and because it's taken so much time on that accountability, we've seen millions of americans brainwashed to this notion that trump had every right to start viewing the law as fungible. hopefully that accountability arriving will at least draw a new line, but it may be a little later than any of us would have liked. >> may,a because this is what we do i have to take a minute before any parades are thrown for the lawyers who stopped

egregious things, but they were the lawyers there for the child separation, there for the muslim ban and found a way to make those abhorrent policies pass legal muster. let me show since we're talking about the lawyers as relative to trump's impulses and sydney powells. let me show you what sydney powell had to say about eastman. we're going to find it. actually, i'll read it to you. here we go. here it is, maya. this is eric hirschman. >> i said to him are you out of your effing mind because i only want to hear two words coming out of your mouth from now on -- orderly transition. i said i don't want to hear any other effing words coming out of your moth no matter what other

than orderly transition. repeat those words to me. eventually he said orderly transition. i said good, john, now i'm going to give you the best free legal advice you're ever getting in your life. get a great effing criminal defense lawyer. you're going to need it, then i hung up on him. >> so, maya, he's one of the most colorful and entertaining witnesses. his deposition was important and enlightening and really provided some much needed levity. it also gets to the heart of the known criminality that they all knew eastman was outside the range of the constitution and likely committing crimes. >> yeah. and part of why it was such great testimony was because he did not hold back on what was the fundamental, obvious and clear truth, which is exactly why eastman is facing disbarment. look, we know from that december 18th unhinged meeting in 2020

where donald trump had already been told repeatedly that this was not -- this election was over and he had lost including by his team. and yet we have donald trump and lawyers including rudy giuliani himself who faced disbarment actually saying we got another way. and all of this plays out, we've got all we learned from the january 6th committee before you even get to the idea of what's going to happen in courts. but just remember that john eastman has joined a very small exclusive club. because as the major bar association has pointed out, you know, it is really hard to get disbarreds a lawyer. i just want you to know that. out of 1.4 million lawyers in 2021, only 500 were disbarred. it does not happen very often in a self-policing profession. the fact that the opinion was so strong in its words and wording, there was one count that was

dismissed. so it was a fair proceeding and looking at the facts, but lawyers don't get to make stuff up, don't get to make laws up. these were lawyers including john eastman who thought that donald trump was powerful enough and that they were going to get away with it, which has nothing to do with whether they thought it was lawful, and that's why this matters so much. >> amanda, i believe the 1/6 select committee developed evidence john eastman was personally aware it was both illegal, it violated the electoral count act, and it was unconstitutional. the u.s. supreme court would at first he thought strike it down 7-2, and thain he conceded they would lose 9-0. that knowledge what he was doing was illegal and unconstitutional i think makes it confounding he's had a law license until this point. >> it's what accountability looks like. and i think we should take a step back to evaluate what this means for trump because, you

know, you showcased the lawyers that are all facing accountability, and it's important to remember they weren't doing this work on their own. they were doing it as a service, in service and at direction of trump. you can apply that to the january 6th rioters now facing consequences for their behavior. you can look at the news outlets like fox news who had to pay millions and millions of dollars to dominion voting because otherwise they carried in the service of helping trump. you can look at kari lake, involved in representing steven richard in maricopa county of the defamation suit against her. i think when we look at all of that to borrow a phrase from cheney, how can it be the case that all of these other people who are doing this in the service and at direction of trump will face consequences but trump can't? it doesn't make any logical

sense. and yet he is still going to the supreme court and making this argument about total immunity from any consequences. i look at all these cases, nicolle, and it's just like a big snowball of legal accountability rolling down the mountain that smashes that argument of total immunity. and so i hope we see that day, because it's just so hard. i don't know how the court can take trump's side on that matter given this large body and accountability and consequences for everyone around him when he's the nexus of those problems. >> it's so important to keep that in mind, that they're all operating at his direction. and in the case of eastman, there's evidence developed by the 1/6 select committee he had knowledge of the constitutional legal problems with the i think it's kinzinger who first calls it a blueprint for a coup. i want to come back to you, maya. let me put up -- i got a little bit ahead of my team but let me

put up what amanda is talking about. eastman, jeffrey clark who we covered yesterday, jenna ellis, sydney powell, rudy giuliani, ken chesebro, michael collin. all of them conducted themselves in questionable ways, which is why they're facing accountability, but all of them did so in the pursuit of trump's aims of staying in power. weigh in on the conversation from the top of the last hour that liz cheney pointing out to the supreme court they're aiding and abetting his delay strategy to avoid accountability and potentially depriving the american people of the opportunity to see his alleged crimes ahead of election day. >> yeah. remember that game we all used to play, guess who, where all

the pictures would go up of the different culprits. >> guess who. >> when i see those faces up there of those lawyers we see people who are going to jail potentially in some of those cases or facing other types of accountability. i think donald trump sees a game of guess who where he can swipe all those faces down on the board and use a magic wand like the pardon power to give those people exoneration and then to bring them back around him. that's what really worries me. when you look at those faces up there, a lot of those are going to be people if donald trump wins a second term, these are folks he'll bring back in. he'll have no scruples about some of these very, very damaged characters being put in charge of very powerful offices. and i think what liz cheney and others have pointed out is the deep irony is these people have a real vested interest in donald trump's delay strategy, a personal interest in not only not being held accountable, but

they want to go back into power because they think once donald trump has what he views as a magic wand with that pardon power whereby that they're going to be back in office. and there's another element that's worrying here. we saw in the first term trump's inclination to bubble wrap things in legalese with his lawyers. bubble wrapping their plans in legalese that it was fine to do, and they're drafting those plans for a second term and trying to put justifications around them that will satisfy more than just the maga minority, that will try to appeal to a wider swath of americans. but make no mistake however much legal language they throw around some of these extreme policies in the second term won't cover up the fact in reality he wants to do a lot of unconstitutional things, and the alarm is being rung. >> i mean, maya, he wants to

turn the doj into a personal vendetta machine. he wanted to do it in a first term, and he was stopped to miles' first point by people like don megan. let me ask you maybe a stupid but simple question. don megan had to spend 30 hours talking to robert mueller's investigators. you've got eastman likely to be disbarred. you've got jeffrey clark facing -- how does he keep -- you have corcoran who had to turn over all his notes, became central to the jack smith mar-a-lago case. how does he keep getting lawyers? >> i don't know. look, it's not a stupid question at all, nicolle. and i've never known you to ask a stupid question. i think the question is why does power corrupt? that's really the question because this fundamentally is about corruption. and i mean that corruption in a sense of power and what people will do to get it. that's the jeffrey clark story where he was inserting himself

in an effort to ingratiate himself with trump, that's what i read coming out of the january 6th committee. but also the fact you have so many people willing to step up because donald trump has what i call the friends and family plan. but to be his friend is exactly the thing he said to james comer. you want to be my friend, you have to pledge loyalty. and loyalty means even if what i ask you is unlawful. and that, having a law degree does not mean complete moral compass that ensures that the oath that we all take when we get bar today say that we're going to uphold the laws of the land, the constitution, and the laws of our state, doesn't mean everybody takes to heart. fortunately most lawyers do. that's why it's such a small club, but all i can say is i think it's about power and the privilege that comes with it. and donald trump knows how to use it, and there are, unfortunately, some people willing to be on his friends and

family plan. >> amanda, friends and family sought pardons, i believe. not everyone on that list, but i know a bunch of them did. and trump, he gave pardons to all sorts of shady customers and didn't pardon any of his lawyers. why do you think he couldn't do that? >> i'm not really sure why he didn't pardon his lawyers, but there's nothing stopping him if he gets a second term. we are right to focus on the pardons he's promising for january 6th rioters, but i think that overlooks his past pardon abuse, which was rampant in his first term as president. you've got to remember he gave pardons to his henchmen like paul manafort, steve bannon. there's a whole body of work he established there in pioneering a new form of pardon abuse. because pardons are meant to be used as tools of mercy and justice by a president. donald trump is really the first one that used it to pursue his own political agenda and benefit for friends and family, as maya put it.

so i do think we need to put the magnifying glass on that a little bit tighter scope to predict what he will do in the future. >> amanda, we will do that. let's do that together. a lot was written about how his process was taken out of the justice department which was brought into the white house under jared kushner's command and control. but it is -- it is deeply relevant to his efforts to distort and pervert justice if he's re-elected. maya wiley, amanda carpenter, thank you very much for starting us off this hour. miles sticks around. we'll come back later in this hour. when we come back, the disgraced ex-president's side hustle as a bible salesman. it's hard to say it with a straight face. why our next guest says it's far more than a money grab but a way to present himself as a messianic figure. plus alarming new reporting how russia is using increasingly sophisticated tactics to spread misinformation inside our country in an effort to derail military funding for ukraine.

later in the broadcast at a time when news coverage should have been focused on the victims of a deadly tragedy, the right-wing media ecosystem got busy doing what it seems to do best these days, spreading conspiracy theories and blaming the baltimore bridge disasters on things like dei. deadline white house continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte™. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i,

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all americans need a bible in their home, and i have many. it's my favorite book. christians are under siege. we must protect content that is pro-god. we love god.

i think you all should get a copy of "god bless the usa" bible now and help spread our christian values with others. >> he can be selling anything and it would be easier to watch that without smiling. after years of using the bible as a prop and likening himself to jesus christ and comparing criminal prosecution -- maybe he mixed up the word -- to religious persecution. on this holy week, the most sacred week of the year on the christian calender, donald trump has unveiled his most audacious grift to date. he's selling bibles for $59.99 and an apocalyptic messianic message to go with it. quote, for evangelicals who support him, it is the fulfillment of their prophecy for persecution for trump for

whom many of them have shoved aside gee jesus to praise. this new passion play centered around pay offs isn't anything like jesus. joining us now the author of white ejan gelical racism, the politics of morality in america is back with us. i'm so happy you are with us and you didn't have to navigate traffic. last time you were here at 30 rock was in a traffic jam. i'm very happy to talk to you about this story. and i want to get right at why it works with his base. it just seems so on its face ludicrous. but with his base i bet they're coughing up $59.99. >> they are coughing up $59.99 because they're trained to cough it up, that's first of all. but it works with his base especially because for his evangelical base they think they're persecuted, too.

this narrative of persecution runs very deep with the evangelical group. so when trump says i'm being persecuted but you can buy this bible, it has everything in it, you know it, but i've got my name on it and i've got some other things in it, of course they want to buy it. it makes them close to him. and second, he's really put himself in the space of being the evangelical savior. and i know that's terrible to say on the week that is holy week, right, for the christian faith. but it's a thing where he really does believe that he's being persecuted for them, that his troubles are about being persecuted so that he can do the things that they need him to do. and that's the problem. and that's what makes it sell. >> but what is it that makes them see anything about themselves in him? when they hear his voice on "access hollywood" talking about grabbing women in the "p" word because they let you and seeing

good people on both sides. what is it about his words and actions? >> this is going to sound strange for people but he's a sinner and sinners can be redeemed. when they look at trump they look at two things. he's a strong man. he fills all these roles of a strong man, but secondarily, he's also a persecuted figure. and they see him in a christ-like phase. in other words, for them the persecution he has also says something about, well, he must be god's man because he's going through so much. for evangelicals and pentecostals and others and all the backlash he talks about, the witch hunt and all these things, that makes him see him in the light they see themselves. he's just like us, but he's risen above us, and he can save us and he can do something. so this way of putting himself both as persecuted and a

messianic figure is very dangerous, and it falls right into the kind of things that autocrats would do. >> let me just follow up by showing you the way he's talked about his own faith and the bible. >> when i talk about the bible, it's very personal. i don't want to get into. >> is there anything that means a lot to you that you think about or cite. >> i don't want it get into specifics. >> even to cite a verse. >> 2 coringtians, 3:17 that's the whole ball game. >> is there a favorite bible verse or bible story that has informed your thinking or character through life, sir? >> well, i think many. incredible books. so many things you can learn from the bible, and you can lead your life. and i'm not just talking in terms of religion, i'm talking

in terms of leading a life even beyond the religion, there's so many brilliant things in the bible. >> so i don't know a lot about a lot of things, but i promise you he's never opened it. and i wonder again if there's a -- i accept your theory about seeing themselves in a sinner, but how about in a fraud? >> well, you know, there have been a lot of religious frauds, and i hate to tell you this, but that's the thing a lot of gravitate to especially if, "a" the fraud is big, and "b" i mean you can listen to all these quotes and know he hasn't opened up a bible. he's cracked one. the 2 corightians -- the classic one of course is when he wanted today have general milley go out there and shoot protesters and he's holding it upside down. and that's the thing.

it's nothing else but a prop. but you also have to see trump in one way and think this is important to say. he's a huckster but he's a smart huckster because he could be a televangelist tomorrow. that would get him because they would think, oh, this is the stylish thing. it appeals to a prosperity thinking. and to buy a bible is right in line with everything else. it doesn't matter if you have a hundred bibles at home. i'm sure he has none at home. but, yeah, i mean it's really something to see him selling a bible when i just thought, well, couldn't he sell anounting oil or couldn't he sell anything else? but a bible just seems sacrilegious especially during holy week. but it's the second year he's done this, and i think that means something.

he's signaling something to people who are religious and gravitating to the most important time of the christian calender in order to try to make a buck. >> it's so cynical and crass. if you take the sort of phoniness from it, it's just crass and cynical. thank you so hutch for spending time with us today. we really appreciate it. it's great to see you. >> good to see you, too, thanks. >> when we come back, how russia is increasingly using more sophisticated efforts online to derail u.s. military funding for ukraine. we'll have brand new reporting on that story after a quick break. en symptoms tried to take control, i got rapid relief... and reduced fatigue with rinvoq. check. when flares kept trying to slow me down... i got lasting steroid—free remission... with rinvoq. check. and when my doctor saw damage,... rinvoq helped visibly reduce damage of the intestinal lining. check. for both uc and crohn's: rapid symptom relief...

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there is a history here in presidential elections by the russian federation, by its intelligence services. and there's plenty of reason to be concerned. and this is not about politics. this is about national security. it is about a foreign country, a foreign adversary seeking to manipulate the politics and democracy of the united states of america. we are going to be vigilant about that, and we will engage the congress on a bipartisan basis because this should be above and beyond politics. >> that was national security advisor jake sullivan late last month on the threat posed by russian interference in our elections. "the new york times" is reporting today the specter of russian election interference is no longer just a top concern, it is happening now.

quote, russia has incensified its online efforts to derail military funding for ukraine in the u.s. and europe largely by using harder to trace technologies. to amplify arguments for isolationism ahead of the u.s. elections, according to disinformation experts and intelligence assessments. russian operatives a laying the ground work for what could be a stronger push to support candidates who oppose aiding ukraine or call for pulling the united states back from nato and other alliances, u.s. officials and independent researchers said. joining our coverage former assistant dreshlgt for counter intelligence at the fbi frank figliuzzi. miles is with us as well. these folks are in government. it is political and part of donald trump's strategy and started with, russia, are you listening, end quote. it is slow motion, and i wonder if we're going to have to fight it with one of the two political parties welcoming it? >> you know, as i was prepping

for this hit today i literally stopped and was trying to figure out which came first, the chicken or the egg. it's now getting increasingly difficult to determine the disinformation and misinformation campaign is language generated out of russia or the trump campaign. and on any given day the answer is yes. yes, and they're mirroring each other. it's only the beginning what we're going to see as we ramp up the election in termles of attempts to influence how we think as americans, how the world thinks really, how our allies think particularly about ukraine and then eventually about the elections. and then you mentioned there's an increasing sophistication with how the russians are doing this. you'll recall back with the mueller report, pointing out and indicting, by the way, two dozen russians how, you know, by keystroke, location, time of day, how russian gru intelligence officers were able

to hack into the dnc and various e-mail systems and then how a cut out company largely run by a russian oligarch, friends of putin were able to generate a campaign to supporting trump. that is nothing compared to what we're already seeing with regard to influencing americans about ukraine and policy about aiding ukraine. so this we keep hearing of it's going to be a forever war, we're at a stalemate, russianerize going to nuke ukraine if we don't end this, we've lost accountability financially, we can't find material sent by the dod. all of that flies in the face of realities. there's strict accountability in place now at dod and on the other side in ukraine. it's not a forever war. it might be if we don't give ukraine aid and we fight this forever. but this is now being amplified through a sophisticated layer of

cut outs front companies where there's now arms length plausible deniability, so if putin's called out on it he'll go i don't know who you're talking about. there's like layers of onions here you've got to peel back. that makes it really hard for our government and intelligence community to prevent the kind of influence and disinformation campaign we're about to see from russia rarlding the election. >> miles, to frank's point look at these guys, they're going to put the cut outs out of work. these are republicans. >> yeah, i mean we did not learn our lesson as a country in 2016, nicolle. and i think you're right to point out that it's actually worse than in that window. because in that window i think you had donald trump realizing that whether it was active or passive collusion with the russians, there was a beneficial relationship would there. i think a lot of us wrongly thought that it was just one man with that crazy view and the russians. now we have a lot of folks

within the republican party that were -- that are willingly abetting the russian message. and it's being amplified. it is remarkably effective right now. this campaign is working. and make mow mistake it is a cy-op, a psychological operation being executed by a foreign adversary, being run by their intelligence services, and it's incredibly effective. i'm even more worried, though, this is going to get amplify today a level we haven't seen before because of technology this cycle. these reports mentioned increasing use of technological tools, and part of that are a.i.-powered tools that allow these tactics to be more believable and interactive. now, if you go back to 2016 some of the things the russians tried to do were really kind of amateur. you could tell it was not a native english speaker producing this content, and so a disturbing reader might not fall for some of their propaganda. now they can deploy interactive a.i.-powered bots online that

feel like real accounts, that interact and amplify things. and again, that seems to be working and we're still months and months out from the election. there's a lot of ways this could manifest with technology we haven't seen, and i think it's catching the federal government off-guard. it's certainly catching the american public off-guard because folks don't even realize they're being actively manipulated. >> i want to show our viewers what that looks like and chicken and egg. i don't know if we want to call republicans the chickens or the eggs. it doesn't really matter. we'll show you on the other side. don't go anywhere. 'll show you side don't go anywhere.

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i got to be honest with you i don't really care what happens to ukraine one way or another. >> we're paying for a war, a proxy war with russia when i've never seen putin actually show in any detail his plans to invade europe. no one has shown me that, so i don't believe the lies that i'm being told about this. >> well, what i've been saying for quite some time now is vladimir putin will not lose this war. so at some point in time, we're going to face reality and we're going to have to end this war with a negotiated settlement. >> but i can promise you if you put a ukraine bill on the floor and you haven't secured the border, there's going to bea problem within the ranks on capitol hill. >> we're back. i mean, frank, there you have i don't know is it the chicken or

the egg? are they mimicking what they heard on tucker carlson's show, from russia? if it's all symbiotic, how do you break the cycle? >> we've got to do a better job of calling out the falsehoods, first of all. right? this notion this will go on forever and putin's going to win the war. the drum that simply isn't true. and in large part it will become true only if we walk away from the democracy and free people of ukraine, number one. number two, i think we have to be far more honest that, yeah, you know what, we are there to degrade and erode our adversary's military capabilities. and you know what, they're degraded and eroded and now is not the time while russia is on the ropes to let our adversary take a breather, which is exactly what's happening right now. ukraine has had monumental successes because of western

allies and the united states. that's got to be the message. they are a threat to us. i mean we just said in the previous segment, they want to influence our thinking, want to influence our campaign in nefarious and maligned ways. and they're going to pull it all the stop tuesday do it. >> i guess, miles, what's so interesting to me is how much open assistance they get from today's republican party and today's right-wing media. i want to turn to another disinformation story as americans woke up to the tragic news of the bridge collapse in baltimore, this is what was happening on right-wing media. >> overall, though, a lot of things seem to be going wrong in america. i mean beyond the transgender mess and everything else, but, you know, windows falling off of planes, bizarre train accidents, airplanes losing altitude suddenly. just strange things. >> the problem here is this is the consiance, the sort of distrust of terrible leadership. when you have an administration

that has weaponized the department of justice. >> almost immediately the fbi waved off the possibility of a terror attack. >> i want to be clear that there is no specific or credible information to suggest that there are ties to terrorism in this incident. >> today was that agent's first day on the job as head of the baltimore field office. and we hope he's right. >> so many other major organizations has drifted away from its roots in recent years prioritizing woke inclusive initiatives over its standard responsibilities. diversity, equity, and inclusion have become top talking points, and with very little research you can find plenty of what the company looks for in a new hire. >> at a moment like this where our infrastructure is crumbling, wouldn't it be great to have a genuine builder, somebody who comes with a skill to the white house, right? donald trump. >> miles, i've been out of the

republican party to not recognize all those faces but i recognized a few. and those are people who know better, and i think most of those comments were made while this is still an active recovery effort. they were still trying to search and rescue people. so before -- i mean way beyond the dust settling and then politicizing something tragic, the tragedy was ongoing and that's what was happening in right-wing media. >> we're not living in crazy town anymore. like, we're in crazy city and they're building skyscrapers. i mean if you follow just like the four hours after this incident happened, there were thelries going viral about cyber attacks and how it had something to do with the covid-19 vaccine and the guy who was leading the ship, there was stuff about israel and the obamas and then the dei stuff. the conspiracy theories got wildly out of hand.

and again to take you back to the technology component, there weren't even deep fakes involved. and that's what worries me is these types of conspiracy theories are going to be put on steroids when people start integrating content that looks real but isn't. and of course in the segment we talked about earlier, nicolle, the same misinformation that the russians were amplifying on ukraine, we just had a report today that showed a number of those accounts had been fanning the flames of these conspiracy theories in right-wing media, and it's working. it's causing them to spread a lot faster. and i do have an answer to your question from earlier about the chicken and the egg. the republicans are the chickens here because you and i remember the republican party that wasn't cowardly when it came to russia. the republican party that was firm and morally clear ieyed when it came to standing up against a foreign adversary. now a lot of republicans are acting like complete chickens and supplicants to vladimir

putin. this is a national security dilemma, not a political question. >> i mean, frank, if you were to assess a country so in the grips of conspiracy theories and disinformation and took away the knowledge ourselves, i think you would assess our country as weaker because of an inability to separate facts and truth from fiction and conspiracies. how do you appeal to people's desires not to be part of the active weakening of our country? >> yeah. we've got to have people -- and that gap we're jumping to wild conspiracy theories. the only thing i haven't heard so far and maybe i missed it about the bridge collapse is that it was jewish space lasers

or italian satellites. we haven't heard that yet but i'm sure it's coming. there's danger in this. on two levels. one is we're seeing the impact on our institutions, right? so when people point out, well, the fbi says quickly we don't see terrorism signs yet, we can't believe that. we can't believe our institution is what they're telling us. and with regard to the dei hiring of a shipping line, that's an even scarier because what that leads to is violence against minorities if we think they're responsible for everything that goes wrong. >> no one's going anywhere. we'll go around one more time after a quick break. stay with us. re time after a quick break. stay with us

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frank, i've noodled on this deep fear that i have that something as heinous and horrific and tragic as another 9/11 were to happen, what would your country do? what do you think? >> well, we need only point to the covid pandemic as a international emergency and crisis that we simply didn't handle well. when you manage to politicize a pandemic -- so you're right the resiliency is not there. and through my national security lens i'll tell you that our foreign adversary intelligence services are sitting back and laughing at us because they could never have paid enough to get us to this weak point where

we are. we can come back, we have to come back, but it's going to be a generation before we can re-establish our resiliency. >> miles, you get a quick last word. >> you know that old saying that you and i have talked about before nicolle, a lie gets halfway around the world before the truth gets its pants on, technology makes that disinformation a lot worse. we can put our pants on faster and fight power with power and use that technology to fight faster. >> we'll continue to turn to both of you. thank you so much for this conversation today. frank figliuzzi, and miles taylor. another break for us. we'll be right back. taylor another break for us we'll be right back. we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free.

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