sound bite there, we know noted that the temporary channel has been opened that's going to allow some ships to be able to move through. they are a part of the salvage brace. we believe we saw a first vessel, a barge being pushed by a tugboat, we were able to pass through this channel as wet on the coast guard boat. this is the first step they'll use to get more vessels into this area so they can continue this work of clearing the waterway, and, of course, getting divers into the water to retrieve the bodies of those missing. >> aaron, thank you very much. that will do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪

happy monday, it's 4:00 in new york. the comments that none of us would tolerate from a loony relative at a dinner table, much less an ex-president of the understand who would like the american people to send him to the white house. going way, way, way beyond any reasonable limit of our discourse, with attacks on a judge's daughter and on president biden. posting a video on truth social that features an image of the current president with his hands and feet tied doane in the bed of a truck. it's featured with the fever swamp, starting the perceived enemies, and in some cases has

been featured in conservative conferences. images have been shared across social media, and an online vendor selling bumper stickers with the images. it's an often violent campaign message with warnings of a bloodbath, and accusations that immigrants are poisoning the blood of our country. as the biden administration warned, trump is regularly inciting accomplice cat violence. just ask the capitol police officers attacked protecting our democracy on january 6th. the pleas to take trump seriously as he ratcheting up and up the rhetoric, coming from far and wide, from the statement we read from the biden campaign to prosecutors in new york, as

they prepare to put trump on his first criminal trial two weeks from now. the ex-president has continued his attacks on the daughter of judge mershon, sharing images of the judge's daughter, randing on truth social on saturday evening, former president sharing a link about the lauren mershon who works with a -- and loren's split wall work was part of her father being compromised. our democracy grappling in real time with donald trump's dangerous rhetoric is where we begin today with some of our most favorite experts and friends.

claire mccaskill is here, and timothy heaphy is back, and msnbc legal analyst andrew weissman is back with us. >> there's a call and response between the former president's rhetoric and real-life consequence on the ground. it goes back a long time, but we talked to a lot of proud boys that the tapped by and stand back comment, as a reason to join the organize and organize on january 6th. they god death threats, people outside their house, so there's no question that the committee's

work established this is not simply rhetorical, not simply adeck dotal, hypothetical rhetoric. >> let's again put this back into the words of his own followers. we have some of that evidence that you developed. let me ask you, andrew weiss. some ann, to put this into some context of your career. it seems to me, and i concluded on friday that at some point it stops being about trump. even mob defendants have a desire to not be in prison while awaiting trial, and their shenanigans seem to have some responsiveness to not be in

behavior. his behavior seems to be outside all the levers of the criminal justice system. put this in real time in relation or in context to what else you have seen in your career? >> you know, when i look at this, it's not a reflection of donald trump. we know what he is. he has engaged in this behavior. it will increasingly be over the top as he gets closer and closer. this is about our institutions about how they are incapable of handling these situation. in normal cases, when i have handled organized crime cases, violent criminals, there's a process where they have held to standards. if they were to engage in this context, yes, they're giving one

bite at the apple, one warning, and then there are consequences, which can include and on which does include jail. just think about not that long ago, paul manafort, he committed obstruction of justice by coaching two witnesses to lie, and he was remanded by the federal judge who oversaw his case. i really think this is a situation with so many people bending over backwards, given the former president of the benefit of doubt over and over again. i think that's the road to hell by not having sort of having held thinks trials already, not investigating in a timely way, by not holding him to the exact same standard. we're both violating or oathings of office, what it means to have at justice system that holds

everyone to the same standard. i know a lot of times it's born out of the trying to be ultra-fair, but it's leading to beyond two systems of justice, it's a unique system of justice for donald trump, which is not constant request what it means to have a democracy. we may find ourselves without a democracy if we don't wise up and hold him to the same standard of everyone else that has ever been treated in all of the criminal cases i've done in my entire life. >> this is the farthest i have heard you go, andrew, and he now exists in a status only available to him. it wasn't available to jeffrey epstein or mob bosses? it exists only for him. i wonder if we stop at some

point saying he was too much for the judicial system -- i have some breaking news on that front. i'll bring it to you in a second. i wonder if it's a charade at this point, saying to voters, listen, it's up to you, but more than ever, you are voters, jurors, here are the facts as i see them. is that where we are? >> i do this we are at a situation where you have to ask yourself at a time when you see a sitting federal judge having to go on air to defend the rule of law, but you don't see that by members of congress condemning viviolence. you don't see that from the department of justice, understanding the way we are in, speaking out in the way, for instances that archibald cox spoke out. you have three former

prosecutors here with our experience, and if you had asked any of us, if we ever had a defendant like this and their name was for the donald trump, would any of us say the judge wouldn't have hauled that person in and at the very least read them the riot act what they can or cannot do, that would have been made at the moment the post was made with respect to the current president. this is simply a crime to threaten the president of the united states. it's also something in a can -- that can lead to a much strict are gag order. all of that would have happened by now. the idea he can say he's being treated unfairly is so laughable, because i think anybody on this panel would say he's been treated with kid gloves by the system. >> again, i obvious say we need

a psychologist or sociologyist here. all of the -- you use the word ultra-fairness, everywhere that he encountered the justice system, it did what you described, to overcompensation for what he constantly protected on the processes. this is an update we came in at this hour on friday, what is now a legal process around a gag order. there's breaking news on that front. the manhattan d.a.'s office has issued a new filing delineating a lot of the weekend's attacks. what is in here? >> really, really strong language, nicolle, and a sort of concession from the d.a.'s office, that the gag order maybe doesn't cover family members of the court or of the d.a.'s office, but if it doesn't, they are saying now is the time to expand it and also, as they asked friday, to warning donald

trump that one more violation and the consequences will include criminal contempt under new york law. the criminal contempt statutes these cite allow for the imprisonment of a person who violates willfully a court order up to 30 days. we have had many conversations is a law sufficient in a situation like this. the d.a.'s office says it is, if you only have the will to impose that. >> what does that mean? >> they're basically saying to the judge, the choice is your. every judge with this man before him, has dealt with, tannian chutkan has, judge gor goren is

saying we have seen this happen. everything that he's done, and i'm quoting now from this filing, everything that he's done since your honor's order adjusts expanding the order. they call his speech disruptive and terrifying. they note he referred to michael cohen as death, and what he has done to the judge's daughter is off-limits. it's based on falsehoods about her social media accounts. they describe how that's an impersonation of an account she won held and based on what kind of income she's garnering from the profession she has now, but even if true, it doesn't justify the attacks. even if, for example, the judge should have recused himself or it's argue agent he could have,

they reminded him, you asked a advisory panel last year, you asked them, what should i do? they told you to hold onto the case, so therefore the attacks on your daughtersh problematic and flagrant right now. this is from district attorney aalvin bragg. the defendant's claims of a constitutional right to levy personal attacks on family members is as disturbing as it is wrong. this court has already held, even assuming the highest scrutiny of the first amendment, narrow restrictions are per missibility since the extra-judicial statements undoubtingly risk impeding the orderly administration of this court. extra-judicial used to be the word that every time i heard it

applied to trump. it was so far beyond the way we have ever talked about any politician. it's been applied to donald trump in legal filings more times than i can county. claire, what do you think should happen at this juncture? >> i'm not ago familiar with new york law as lisa and andrew and others that appear on this program. so, i'm beginning to wonder, and maybe they can answer, does he want contempt? fighting a contemp is pealable. is this his attempt to lure the judge, either one, because he thinking he can delay, or because it gets him more votes? to the weirdos that are part of his cult, i should say, not to

most normal folks that are looking at this with a clear eye. i don't know. andrew, would this allow him to delay it if the judge found him in contempt? >> i think the answer is no. the political issue, whether it plays to his base is one that judge kaplan referred to, where he said, i know utrying to goad me with these statements, and donald trump was basically saying, yes. they sort of understood what was happening. here, i would say this is one where courts have a way of closing ranks, if this is something where he ultimately goes into contempt because of the threatening of the president and the judge's daughter, that's not one where i can see judges seeing a lot of reason to reach

out to help him. i don't think it would delay the trial at all. just to take paul manafort and roger stone, it just affected their bail conditions or that they were awaiting trial from jail, which is what happened to paul manafort. this is the kind of thing where, at the very least, i think the judge needs to be tightening up the bail restrictions, but also, you know what happened with roger stone, when he posted an image of the judge with cross-hairs to the right of her head, there was a hearing of what his intent was and what happened. after that, the judge made various conditions about his bail conditions. same thing happened with paul manafort. all of that can happen under new york law as well. i don't think it will change the

trial date. you can be sure that donald trump will try that avenue. he'll try everything under the sun, because it's two weeks from day he goes to trial, but i think he's run out the string on that one. >> i was going to say if in fact that is construct under new york law, i would say judge merchan understands that, so make tighten restriction, further the gag order and detain him if he refuses to comply with the rule of law. either you do that or throw up your hands and admit we have a two-tiered justice. >> his that, this is what liz cheney tweeted, he's maliciously and repeatedly attacking the

judge's daughter. this behavior shows again that he is unfit for any i've. >> i would say what congresswoman cheney says finds an echo in the filing itself form the d.a.'s office is talking like any of us would talk to each other -- this issue is not complicated. family members must be strictly off-limits. this bespeaks a dangerous intent of entitlement this court should immediately make clear he's prohibited from making or directing others to make public statements about family members of the court, the district attorneys and ought other officials. to andrew's point, i completely agree. yes, he wants it. secondly, it's not going to work. even if it's ultimately appealable, what's being appealed is an order of criminal intent form that's not going to

adjust delaying the start of the trial. in the other -- there he was fined, but still he appealed it, and it doesn't slow down the trial. that trial was already underway when the gag order was implemented. to andrew's point, new york judges said we're not touching this. go ahead and appeal it, but we're not slowing anything down. >> tim heaphy, we shouldn't stop at threats of violence where the violence occurs. the threat is the point in trump-land. the threat, the swatting, the intimidation, the doxing, so

whether the judge and his daughter are in the extraordinary circumstance -- i prayed to god this doesn't happen to anybody, in any party, i hope they're not confronted with threats to their family. the intimidation and terror is the point. >> yes. 100%, nicolle, absolutely right. the terror, the intimidation and threats -- to claire's point about delay is actually a reason not to delay. also jack smith and fanni willis wasn't those cases adjudicationed, another reason to hold firm the trial dates, is to minimize the risk of this kind of rhetoric. i would not be surprised to see prosecutors, as they try very hard to get these cases on schedule and hold to a schedule to point to these kinds of ink centsary statements as a reason

to hasting the proceedings. a judge can certainly hold a defendant who violates a gag order in contempt, but he or she can also give him his day in court asap, as a way to shrink the period of time and the -- make it less and less likely for more rhetoric and more threats. you're 100% correct, nicolle, it isn't just the follow-through, but the specter, the fear that it causes. it's part of a broader political narrative of the system being somehow rigged. that is an appeal to the court of public opinion, not a jury in this case. for whatever reason, he continues to beat the drum, even if it hurts him in court. >> let me just, again, the threats and the intimidation of the terror, as have ended in their own right, have the same damage to the rule of law and the place that the judges --

we're going to judge solatair in a minute, they're not protected by steel fences and barricades. they're protected by norms, with the people who serve in the system. increasingly, judges are speaking out. let me show you retired california superior judge cordle had to saying on this issue. >> i have presided over thousands of hearings and trials, and never did any defendants in my courtroom show such disrespect to the court by donald trump. usually a warning was sufficient. in this instance, his words are clearly intended to intimidate, threaten and incite violence

these people. he's literally thumbing his nose at the courts and making a mockery of the legal system. we know this, because he's cautioned, never once, never cautioned hi followers to abstain from making threats and otherwise attack his targets. he watts to people in fear for their lives by having his followers do his dirty work. the judge i believe should immediately expand the gag order to include himself, his family members and include d.a. bragg and his family members. when he crosses that line, there should be only one response -- bring your toothbrush, donald trump, because you're going to sit in a jail cell for a while. . >> i know we could live in a country where the politicians are worse than the criminals. right. exactly. judge cordell is one of many,

nicolle. there are so many esteemed republican judges in washington, d.c. before i appeared many times. they are paragons of the d.c. legal infrastructure, and all appointed by republican presidents, and they have called out for a stop to this rhetoric and for real consequences. absolutely, it may by this particular gag order was arguably insufficient to cover threats against the judge's family member, but it ought to be clarified. if there are further violations, there needs to be a real consequence. that's the only way the system, if it's going to function, if people are held accountable, that's the only response that makes sense. thank you for starting us off. i know something has been happened when i see the chairs

and the papers come to the desk, you are always so brillian and prepared. thank you for running in here. claire sticks around for the rest of the hour. when we come back more of this unprecedented climate of threats over the justice system, these follows the incendiary of an american ex-president. plus, some breaking news to tell you about out of florida, on whether or not abortion will be on the ballot there in november. and later in the broadcast, it turns out bibles could be just the beginning, while the ex-president is pushing christianity into thinks maga. don't go anywhere today. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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as i was walking, just something didn't feel right. i noticed the car was sort of out of place. i remember looking. he looked, we locked eyes for a second, and then he looked away, and i would later find out that that would be the man that would come the next day at 5:00, ring our doorbell and take my only child. he went down to the desk and paid for three more nights. i remember saying to the agent, why do you think he did that. he looked at me stone-cold and said, ma'am, he was going to

kill you and stayed long enough to get the job done. >> that interview is with me every day as i sit on this desk. this was our conversation last year, the unimaginable tragedy of her son's murder. and four clears later, judge salas is back speaking out today, as another -- is targeting another judge in another case. it's a pattern that trump has ramped up pretty dramatically since leaving the white house. during which time reuters is reporting serious threats among federal judges alone more than doubling. joining is judge esther salas.

thank for you coming back. >> thank you for having me. we say rule of law as a thing, but it's people. we say extremist rhetoric like it doesn't incite other people. we talk about a collision like it's abstract, but it's real. it collided when he came to your house and killed your son. >> i think, for me, since daniel's murder, i've been shocked at the reckless language that leaders fro both sides of the aisle have used at certain points in time. i think we need to be more cognizant of the words that we use to speak of judges and the justice system. for me, i just -- if i had a wish, i wish people would realize that words matter, conduct matters, and that people

are really looking to them to be role models. we need to be impeccable with our word. we need to show, you know, listen, all my brothers and sisters on the bench, 50% of the time you're not going to agree with our opinions and rulings, and that's okay. >> maybe more than that, right? >> absolutely. all we ask is use the system to appeal our rulings, stick to the merits of our rulings, and try not to personalize it. children are watching. children are guided by what we as adults do. i think we lose a certain civility when we go low. so, for me, i'm just mindful to both political parties, independents, so any leaders or people in the spotlight to think about what they say and how they treat other people.

let's agree to disagree. wife become inflexible, sometimes i feel like we're ready to break. that's why mark and i stay active in trying to encourage states across this country to enact offensive laws, laws that are going to and by offense we're going to play offensively, right? and shields or personally identifiable information, and protect statistic state and local judges that serve their states proudly. let's start protecting all judges. >> you're talking about the discontent that happens inside a courtroom, right? when in every trial one side wins and one side loses. what happens when on top of that gasoline is pours on the issues by either party. we need to remember daniel and

judge wilkinson from maryland who lost his life. judge rommer in wisconsin, who lost his life in 2022, when a man who sentenced him 15 years earlier came to his home and assassinated him. you know, there are real present dangers that exist in this world. we have to be mindful that, no matter who we are representing, right? we're representing america. we're representing the constitution. we're representing the rule of law. you know, i think when we can be mindful of those individuals that have paid the price, the ultimate price, that we can realize there's so much at stake. >> right. >> you know? >> what would you imagine it's like for judge merchon be

attacked all over social media? >> as a sitting judge, i have to be careful to talk about an active case. but for me, yesterday was easter. i had to celebrate without my son, you know? so, i say signature imagine what goes through any parent's head when you think that something you did, the job that's chose costs the life of my only child. that is a reality i have to live with. i'm, you know, i do my best to remember that daniel was so proud of his mom. i do my best tomorrow that i am done my son justice by continuic to advocate for better security. we have had made progress. since the last time i talked to you, 16 states have enacted laws

shielding more than three aspects of the personally identifiable information. it's a start. we have six states with pending legislation. maryland and new york, we're really optimistic about that. we have spoke states and territories where we have work to do. progress, that's what i want to encourage, you and everyone watching. you know what? light will overcome darkness. positivity, if we stay positive, if we are mindful of the way we treat each other, i believe it's contagious, i believe we can do things to make this a better place to live. >> do you still believe -- i feel like i know what you're going to say -- do you still believe in the rule of law? >> i do. >> do you think it's in danger right now? >> i worry about it, i'm not going to lie to you.

i worry about democracy. i worry if we allow these threats to go unchallenged, if we don't work together, but there are bipartisan laws pending now, we're seeing our leaders work together, by the numbers i just shared, we're seeing state legislaures work it works. i'm the proud daughter of cuban mexican parents, only in america. i do believe in the rule of law. i do believe we need to protect and guard it. we need to remind each other constantly what's at stake, but i also think we need to have faith. >> i want to ask you how we do that. do you mind if we sneak in a quick break? >> sure. >> and then get your secret sauce? >> sure. a quick break for us. we'll be right back. a quick bres we'll be right back.

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with no children and no casinos. we actually have reinvented ocean voyages, designing all-inclusive experiences for the thinking person. viking - voted world's best by both travel + leisure and condé nast traveler. learn more at viking.com. we are back with judge esther salas. tell me where your faith and optimism comes from? we talked about this a bit. i know it comes from your son, but when you see wheels grind, it feels so slowly, where does your faith come from? how do you focus on achievements and the positive progress? >> you said it. it comes from my son, right?

it comes from everything he gave up so mark and i could continue and to live our lives, and to love life. i keep telling people he didn't sacrifice his life so couldn't squander mine. i'm not going to say i'm always upbeat and optimistic, but i try. for me, it's my god, and my faith help me move forward. i think the good that i see coming out of the courts, a lot of things that aren't covered. there's a lot of the naturalization ceremonying, i run a recovery court, where i've seen people turn their lives around from being addicts to successful individuals that want to pay it forward at sober houses, helping other people that are mired in addiction. there's so much good that we're doing, and i sigh it ever day.

i know that we're just -- we're just beautiful people, and we're meant to love one another. i'm mindful of that, that feeling that i get when i speak kind words over mean ones, when i do something just to make someone feel better. i love that saying, you can be right or kind, always choose kindness. all those things that are uplifting as opposed to weighing us down. i've wearing a "love it light" necklace. hate is heavy, love is light, you know? >> how do you spread that over the country? >> i'm trying necklace by necklace. i'm trying just to whenever possible, remind people -- when daniel was murdered, we received

hundreds, if not thousands of letters from all over the country and beyond. people didn't know us. i have to say even yesterday i received a text from a friend in a church in a town i've never heard of. they mentioned daniel and saying a prayer for our family. that's humanity. that's the love. >> it's the connection. you have to think, i imagine, every day if daniel was here, what will he be doing? >> i think definitely he would have been a lawyer. i think he would be fighting the fight. he was -- he loved to take me on. >> you think he would be in politics? >> he had the personality and the -- he was 6'1", but what i loved about daniel was his kind heart. he always -- he was worried -- when the killer rang or doorbell, he was downstairs tell telling me how worried he was

two of his friends were fighting, and didn't want to have to pick between the two. that's what he was talking about. mom, i don't want to have to choose. and his last words, keep talking to me, i love talking to you. i think doing this right now, talking to you, talking to people that will talk about judicial security, talking to people that want to help, is my way d. don't make me cry -- is my way of talking to daniel, you know? so, i'm going to continue to be optimistic. i'm going to continue that even when leaders on both sides of the aisle are perhaps being reckless, dangerous or careless with their words, i'm going to continue to hold out hope that as a community, as a people, we are going to continue to advocate for the judiciary, we are going to continue to

advocate for the rule of law. we are going to continue to remember what this country is all about. we're going to work together to make laws mean something, and that is part of these judicial security laws. i continue to really encourage maryland and new york city, and wisconsin -- they passed last week. wyoming, some of the states that don't have laws just yet, we can continue to say, you know, there's work to do. let's do it teague. >> we should put it on the wall. >> we're down to 13. we note that tote board. >> we'll do that next time. we'll stay on it. do you ever wish you didn't have to? where you didn't need laws to protect judges? >> there's so many wishes, but i also say we have to accept life

as it is, now as we want it to be. that's one of the big things i deep reminding myself. it took a while to get there. i was trapped in yesterday, our anxious about tomorrow. now i'm present moment. now i'm saying we're here, and there are things to do, but there are things we can do together. the members of congress work together, and they will continue to work together. i'm optimistic that at the end of the day, we want this country to thrive, we want this country to continue to be the beacon of hope that it is for so many people wanting to be here like my mom and my dad, and we'll be the land of opportunity, that we are going to love this country the way we love the people that we live with. >> do you think we can love it out of this current mom where does not, they don't work

together, and not everybody does welcome people. do you think light can get us out of this? >> i do, but it's a matter of talking about it, letting our leaders know what we want, letting our leaders we would prefer they work together, letting them know we prefer, when the government is working, functioning, as it should, and be mindful that what we do, even in our little world ily resonate. >> ripple. >> yes, the rippling effect. i have to believe in that. i have to stay in the light. i encourage everyone that wants to do something, that we do things that can protect judges. we know what can protect judges. shielding that information, as we say, making it hard or harder for people who want to do us

harm. and doing stories like this, and doing stories where it's not all about what's bat in the world, but what's always good in the world. >> the light. >> staying in the light. >> i need one of those necklace. you barreled into the building like a ball of light. you really are light, and it has to be a practice, because i can't imagine after your loss. thank you for using your platform, talking about judges who can't or won't use their platforms or their judges speak? >> you know, i think that we're often -- we call it baby judge school. you know, you've got to stay in your lane. stay in your lane. this isn't a lane that we are really comfortable in. but after daniel's murder i just felt like, you know, mark and i needed to step out, learning to be comfortable in perhaps uncomfortable moments is what --

where growth occurs. and i feel like a lot has happened. i know that daniel, daniel's law in new jersey and these numbers are fantastic, we need to do more. there's hope. and i want to continue to advocate to our sister states to do what they need to do to make sure their judges are protected. there are 30,000 judges, state and local judges that deserve our protection. >> absolutely. absolutely. >> and are counting on it. >> hard enough under any circumstance. can we continue this? >> oh, my gosh. forget it. i'm really going to bring the whiteboard -- >> i brought it up last time and we forgot. >> but you had me, and i thank you for this. >> thank you for being here. i think about you all the time in all of our coverage because i think that it isn't the rule of law in a box, it's a human being, it's a judge with a family and kids and i think about you all the time. thank you so much for being here. >> thank you. >> thank you. when we come back, there's some breaking news to tell you about

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six-week near total abortion ban to go into effect. that ballot initiative would prevent any laws banning abortion before fetal viability or, quote, when necessary to protect the patient's health as determined by the patient's health care provider. the measure must be approved by 60% of voters. the fight to get it passed is now all the more pressing since that state's six-week ban that goes into effect 30 days from now is one of the strictest in the country. we'll have much more on this story throughout the week. coming up next for us, back in 2016 trump told his supporters, quote, i alone can fix it. now in his third run for the white house trump is presenting himself as a messiah figure to his maga base. we'll bring you that story after a quick break. don't go anywhere. so i didn't think i needed swiffer... until i saw how easily it picked up my hair,

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12k3w4r50i6r7b8g9sds o'. it's easter. the time of year when i compare myself to jesus christ. that's just a thing i do now and people seem to be okay with it. i'm going to keep doing it. and if you think that this is a bad look, imagine how weird it would be if i started selling bibles. well, i'm selling bibles. look at this beautiful bible. made from 100% bible. sounds like a joke, and in many ways it is but it's also very real. >> i'm not doing this for the money. i'm doing this for the glory of god and for pandering and mostly for money. >> the best skits seem to be the ones where they use the most words that were actually said. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. the ex-president despite his

four criminal indictments, multiple divorces, many accusations of sexual harassment and misconduct including one where he was found liable by a judge has long been the choice in america among evangelical right-wing voters. he won 80% of their vote in 2016 and 75% in 2020. in this presidential campaign he's leaning into them even more so. so while "snl" may have had fun poking at him, all of what was said is very, very real. trump is saying those things. those trump bibles are very real. they're very much on sale for $60 each. trump does conclude his rallies now with church-like rituals. and just this weekend on social media on easter sunday, no less, he reposted commentary from the right-wing site gateway pundit claiming he is, quote, the chosen one sent here directly by god. has it gotten to this point? trump has won over religious voters by speaking directly to them, by nominating three extremely conservative justices

to the supreme court, and by painting himself as an almost jesus-like figure being persecuted on their behalf. but new reporting in the "new york times" covers how trump has infused christianity into his political movement. quote, trump's ability to turn his supporters' passion into piety is crucial to understanding how he remains the undisputed republican leader despite guiding his party to repeated political failures and while facing dozens of felony charges and four criminal cases. his success at portraying those prosecutions as persecutions and warning without merit that his followers could be targeted next has fueled enthusiasm for his candidacy and placed him once again in a position to capture the white house. just listen to these trump voters in iowa right before that state's caucuses. >> i say when jesus died he died for us. so he did it for us. so when trump is facing all these things he's doing it for us.

in our place. when they are indicting him, we are being indicted. when they talk negative about him, they talk negative about us. >> i'm being indicted for you. my first thought went to, well, jesus christ died for my sins, jesus died for me. and so it connects in my brain that way like okay, he's doing this for us as a country to make the changes we need to make and he's the target. where we don't have to be. >> not every religious person, of course, is buying what trump is selling. one of the two united states senators who are also ordained ministers had this to say over the weekend. >> donald trump is doing what he's always done. and this time it's a risky bet because the folks who buy those bibles might actually open them up. where it says things like thou shalt not lie. thou shalt not bear false witness. where it warns about wolves

dressed up in sheep's clothing. i think he ought to be careful. this is risky business for somebody like donald trump. >> it is where we start the hour with some of our most favorite reporters and friends. npr national political reporter and author of "the evangelicals: loving, living and leaving the evangelical church," sarah mccam nd is here. plus host of politics nation on msnbc, president of the national action network the reverend al sharpton is here. and princeton university professor and distinguished political scholar eddie glaude is with us. rev, you and i started this conversation with the bible. you scratch just beneath the surface and you get into the reporting of what's transpiring at his rallies and it's not even subtle. i mean, he is presenting himself as a messiah. >> no, it's not subtle. he's being very open and i think outrageous in saying that he is a messianic person.

he's reposting that. he's coming out -- i mean, anytime -- it reminds me when i was a youngster growing up as a boy preaching in the pent costal church and these phonies come through that the bishop wouldn't let in that would sell blessed cloths and blessed oil. and this is trump. he is a man that's sold the cloths off of the suit he was arraigned in for trying to steal an election. so if that's not right out of these evangelical crooks that used to try to plague on many communities, blessed cloths, now blessed bible, now compare me to jesus, he is straight out of that whole jimmy bakker kind of tradition. the problem i think that people are looking at is they're looking at the wrong models. they're looking at republicans like eisenhower to reagan to bush. you ought to be looking at jimmy and tammy bakker to realize the

playbook that he's using because that's who he is and that's what he's using. >> rev, how do you break an emotional bond that isn't based on facts or even shared values? >> i think the way you break an emotional bound is you have to understand why there is an emotional bond, and that is these people are seeking to not have to think for themselves, that someone will deliver them because life is too hard for them. and i think the other side has to say that we can solve these problems. that's why we have certain entities in this country that has developed whether it was the labor movement or the women's movement or the civil rights movement. you can do it. and restore people's faith in their working inner collective to deal with this rather than have somebody spoon-feed you to let me do it for you because they haven't done it. we need to say if donald trump could do all of this to save you

why couldn't he save you the four years he was in? it's not that he doesn't have a record. if he could save you, then why couldn't he stop the pandemic? if he's the messiah, why didn't you freeze the pandemic in its tracks, savior, and stop us from suffering for those two years? why didn't your bleach work, your blessed bleach didn't heal us from the pandemic? i would turn his stuff on him. >> yeah. it sounds too reasonable. but it sounds like it could be the only hope. sarah, let me read you more of this new reporting in the "new york times" about this as a political strategy. quote, trump's political creed stands as one of the starkest examples of his effort to transform the republican party into a kind of church of trump. his insistence on absolute devotion and fealty can be seen at every level of the party from congress to the republican national committee to rank-and-file voters, even more than in his past campaigns he's framing his '24 bid as a fight for christianity, telling a

convention of christian broadcasters that, quote, just like in the battles of the past we still need the hand of our lord. now, i played this on friday when the rev and i talked about the bibles. i mean, he's clearly -- and i'm not an expert by any stretch. but he is clearly not opened any of the bibles he's selling for $60. doesn't know what's in it. he doesn't know what it says. and he doesn't know why it resonates with his supporters. why do they see him as one of them? >> well, i think it's important to understand that trump is tapping into messaging here that resonates with evangelical voters for a lot of reasons. he's tapping into a long-standing theme that many of them have heard from their churches, from their pastors. in my book i write about some of the christian school curriculum that i grew up with and millions of others who grew up in the evangelical movement grew up reading. that really paints america as a christian nation that has fallen away, that's in decline because of an increasing secularization and a host of other concerns that evangelicals raise, things

like same-sex marriage and abortion and a number of other culture war issues that you might think of. they tend to point to those issues and say that the country has fallen away from christianity, from its christian founding. and when trump says things like make america great again, that taps into that idea that i think is familiar to a lot of evangelicals. as the country has become more secular and also more diverse, many white christians feel a loss of cultural power. and that is what this messaging taps into. if you listen to what he said when he sold those bibles in a video he posted on truth social, he said things like america's under siege, we need to bring back christianity. and i think if you look at polling many evangelicals recognize that trump is not a particularly devout or religious man. but they don't seem to care too much because they see him as a champion for their movement and their ideological goals. >> so there have to be fissures

even within -- it's not a monolith. it never is. is it generational? is it regional? because i think it hasn't been too long since young evangelicals were very interested in things that trump isn't associated with, more humane immigration and migration policies, climate, pursuing solutions to climate change. i mean, where do the fissures break down? >> there are definitely fissures. and again, if you look at the data, 2 in 10 white evangelicals don't support trump. so there's a fissure right there. generationally, we are seeing a shift away from church attendance and from identification with christianity. white christianity certainly is on the decline. that's across the board. that includes evangelicalism has been on a downward trajectory for a long time. so has catholicism. and that tracks generationally. i also think there are many people who are active in their churches who are concerned about

some of this rhetoric. there was a seminary professor with a southern baptist theological seminary who wrote an op-ed speaking out about the trump bible and saying that was inappropriate. and i in my reporting have talked to some evangelicals who are concerned about what they describe as an increasingly messianic tone that the trump movement has taken on, the idea that trump is sort of being aligned with christ, which it's something -- which obviously is the most important figure in christianity. so for some that is a source of concern. >> yeah. and i think eddie, we have to be careful not to laugh at this, right? because i think from the outside of a faith community you would say how on earth could they see him as christ-like? that seems preposterous. from that sort of world view here's what maureen dowd writes. where the world needs a soul cleanse, where the prophets could be paying legal costs in trials about breaking xhamtsz, bearing false witness to try to steal democracy, coveting a porn star then paying the star hush money to keep quiet about the

sex. i mean, that's how could this possibly be happening in the best sort of most eloquent paragraph. and there's this realization, common cause, and this is then't just an american issue. this is where there's some alignment with voices in russia. this is sort of an international undercurrent. and i wonder how you see it. >> right. i think there are a number of things at work here. obviously, american christendom is in need of a kind of third awakening, a kind of revival in order to respond to the undercurrent that leads to the attraction to donald trump. and i also think we need to understand the significance and the importance of what donald trump as a grifter, as a particular kind of confidence man, the work that he's doing that reverend al has talked about and what sarah's talked about earlier. but i also think it's really important for us to understand the other side of this, nicolle, and that is this white christian nationalist element. >> right. >> this what i would call, that

other scholars would talk about as america's uncivil religion. we talk about american liberalism and american civil religion. the way in which the constitution, the declaration of independence, the founding fathers allow for a sense of national consensus as it were. but there's an american uncivil religion that has its beginnings in interesting sorts of ways in this suction that position, nicolle, of the slave auction block with the church steeple. american christendom's compromise with the evil of the institution of slavery. what's the -- what are the components of america's uncivil religion as scholars think about it? one has to do with divine favor. the nation's american patriotism can blend seamlessly into christian witness. other has to do with the sacralifrmt ty of the ideas of liberty and freedom above all else including the second amendment. another has to do with what, history and heritage, right? and the last has to do with the ritual of scapegoats, how we need others to consolidate our sense of ourselves. and all of this plays out in the

ritual practice. so donald trump is the grifter. he's the con man. you have the evangelical fissures as sarah's floated. but there's also this fertile soil in the country, america's uncivil religion that's tied to its illiberal tradition that believes that this country must always be and must remain a white nation, a white christian nation. >> eddie -- >> that was quick. i'm sorry. >> no, no, no. i have more for you, eddie. i mean, how does joe biden as an actual man of a quiet faith have that conversation that you just laid out for us with the country? >> well, i think we have to do it in the way that we've done it historically. in the face of america's uncivil religion, in the face of a kind of idolatry of christianity, there were voices coming out of that tradition that were forceful. right? that were forceful. that is to say, this is not my

gospel, this is not my christ, this is not my jesus. right? and so there was this argument being made by abolitionists, for example. what was king writing? who was king writing to in the letter from the birmingham jail? he wasn't just writing to the kkk who was burning crosses. he was writing, nicolle, to those white christian adjacent folk who were saying we were moving too fast. right? so he was calling christians out. and so it seems to me it's not only president biden's task, right? it's reverend al's task. it's all of those folk who claim a prophetic gospel to come out and speak forcefully against this. right? because there are some people trying to hijack it for their own insidious purposes and aims. >> insidious and political. let me show all of you some more of what senator raphael warnock had to say. >> the bible doesn't need donald trump's endorsement, and jesus in the very last week of his

life chased the money changers out of the temple. those who would take sacred things and use them as cheap relics to be sold in the marketplace. the sad thing is that none of us are surprised by this. this is what we expect from the former president. if he's not selling us steaks, he's selling us a school whose degree is not worth the paper that it's written on. if he's not selling us a school he's selling us sneakers. and now he's trying to sell the scriptures. >> you know, rev, there is this bias implicit in the soft bigotry of no expectations that we have that donald trump will act in a decent manner, and i think it impacts how we cover his embrace of christianity, something that anyone that's followed his public life knows is not a part of his life. how do you -- how would you advise the biden-harris side to have these conversations with voters?

biden obviously someone of deep faith. >> i think by talking clearly about what faith is and where faith may fit into the conversation but don't distort the faith. you know, when you hear senator warnock talk about money changers in the temple, well, the symbol of donald trump's wealth was casinos. i mean, how are you going to take a guy that had casinos all over the place and make him the guy that represented christ that stood up against the money changers in the church? i mean -- in the synagogue. i think that eddie's right. for every generation of white nationalist supremist that used the church -- you've got to remember they used the church. they sanctified segregation. they sanctified slavery. they sanctified people that would come preach on sunday morning and then go to the town

square to witness a lynching at noon. bring your picnic baskets. this was done by white churchmen. we need to identify him as in that tradition while those of us that are in the martin luther king tradition and and the tradition in the jewish faith of rabbi heschel and them, there's always been this counterbalance to distorting what religion is, whether it was jew, or christian or muslim. and it takes those of us in the tradition to stand up and say these are the idolatrous and those that have misused religion like in the scriptures. jesus was brought up on charges by the high priest of that time. and i think the tradition of those high priests that are trying to stop those that want to heal the nation as jesus had come forth is being represented by those that support donald trump, that they're the ones that want to crucify those that want to stand up for healing

rather than to heal and try to build a society that works for everybody. >> sarah, i guess i asked the political questions because it's my understanding that a lot of churches are extremely well organized politically in support of donald trump. how would you sort of analyze the state of political reediness to fight and defend and support donald trump in 2024 compared to '20 and '16? >> well, i know there are several groups that are working to mobilize pastors and churches, and obviously there are rules around, you know, irs rules and non-profit status that restrict what churches can do to some extent. but those are kind of -- those are rarely enforced, first of all. those are rules that donald trump promised to do away with when he was running for president the first time in 2016. and it should be noted that there's a long history of activism through churches across the board. right? churches of all stripes.

but that's certainly part of the plan according to the reporting i've seen this year. and i should note there are also efforts by more progressive churches to reach white evangelicals and catholics and other voters who might be sort of in the middle and persuadable. and those efforts are under way as well. when you talk about white evangelicals in particular, it's still a pretty big voting bloc. it's a shrinking one but still a big one and a reliable one. white evangelicals vote in really high numbers. that's when it gets so much attention from organizers primarily on the right, but again-i think there are efforts across the board to reach some of those voters who might be persuadable this year. >> sarah mccam mon, thank you for your expertise. the reverend al sharm-ton and eddie glaude, thank you for your expertise and wisdom and pending is time on this story. we'll stay on it. when we come back the elections official in the battleground state of colorado on what she says has been an alarming 600% jump in threats against her since her state moved to bar the disgraced ex-president from the ballot.

colorado's secretary of state, jenna griswold, will be our guest after a very short break. plus, another high-profile republican saying he just cannot vote for trump this time. what will it take for president biden to win over the anti-trump republican vote this november? later in the hour, and what we're learning -- we're learning more about that incident at the fbi atlanta field office where a driver rammed his car into a barricade. officials now say the suspect, who is in custody, has no known connection to the facility. and officials say they do not know his motive at this hour. he had they say he tried to follow an employee's car inside the perimeter but smashed into a barrier, destroying his car. he jumped out and tried to run inside but was tackled a few feet from his car. he was taken to a hospital for evaluation. we'll stay on top of that story. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. " continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. hi guys! bill, you look great! now that i have inspire, i'm free from struggling with the mask and the hose. inspire? inspire is a sleep apnea treatment that works inside my body with a click of this button. no mask!

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my e-mail, my cell phone was doxed, and so i was getting texts all over the country and then eventually my wife started getting the texts. and hers typically came in as sexualized texts, which were disgusting. >> they have had panel trucks with videos of me claiming that i'm a pedophile and a corrupt politician and blaring loudspeakers in my neighborhood. >> we started to hear the noises outside my home and my stomach sunk, are they coming with guns, are they going to attack my house. i'm in here with my kid. you know, i'm trying to put him to bed. >> far from representing the

bottom of american politics, those dopily disturbing and graphic threats against election officials, two of them lifelong republicans, show no sign of slowing down as we near the 2024 presidential election season. just ask colorado's secretary of state jena griswold. she helped lead an effort in her state to block donald trump from appearing on the ballot there because he engaged in insurrection. according to "rolling stone," secretary griswold has seen a 600% spike in threats since she took on that issue. the threats detailed in "rolling stone" are chilling. "rolling stone" reporting that griswold received a voice mail saying this, quote, i'd love for you to die. she says someone wrote to her on social media, quote, take my advice and where kevlar, a lot of kevlar. griswold responded in an interview, quote, it is scary when i'm told repeatedly i will be killed. i take it seriously. i worry about my family. i worry about people around me. joining us now colorado secretary of stayed jena griswold. thank you so much for being

here. >> absolutely. thanks for having me on. >> you know, i had judge esther salas here. her son was murdered by a disgruntled person she'd run across in the course of doing her job. and i wonder what you think keeps us sort of paralyzed and frozen in inaction and not doing more to stop or turn down the rhetoric on the right. >> well, that's definitely a big question. i think in part it's that threats against election officials largely aren't taken seriously. many of us have been told that the threats against us are not serious. we've had to fight continuously for the last several years for adequate security. and you just have to look at the doj's track record. their special unit on threats to election workers have only prosecuted 20 cases since 2021.

so to an extent election officials are at the front line by ourselves. the doj state and federal officials need to take this much more seriously. the other side of this is this is trump's tactic. this is something that works for trump and the far right. and i think americans need to send them a strong message this november at the ballot box. >> so i have changed my views on platforming trump supporters and trump's words because to your point he wants the right to attack judges and their children, election workers and their families, and when he argues those things in court he argues that it's part of his political campaign. so we'll make sure that voters know what he views as the kind of threats that he incites that are part of his campaign. these are some of the threats you received. quote, i would love to see this arrogant f-ing c-u-n-t dead one

person posted on social media. another posted you're being monitored, jena, phones, texts, e-mails, everything. the next month one person wrote online you'd better keep your doors locked and sleep with one eye open. in january i voice mail saying i hope you f-ing die, your family dies. i home every person that thinks you're a decent person i hope they f-ing die too because they're scum bags. this is some of the speech put in motion on the right to disincentivize people from wanting to run and protect and preserve our elections. and i think people should hear what they're saying and the kinds of threats he's incited. what to those threats specifically was done to protect you? >> i would say the threats get so much worse than that. and it's been somewhat continuous since 2021. and the threats really started to come in against me in a high crescendo when the lawsuit to

disqualify donald trump was filed in september. and one thing i want to correct about your introduction is that i was a defendant in that case. i did not even bring the case. when we reached the point of getting up to the united states supreme court i argued that the colorado supreme court got it right but that i would follow whatever the court's decision was. and i think that the bigger point is that even if you're a defendant in a case it doesn't matter. the misinformation starts being pushed out and the threats start coming in. and it is scary. like i said, many threats are much worse than what you just noted. and when people are telling you in very explicit language how they're going to come kill you and your family you have to take it seriously. >> what do you -- we talked to tim heaphy at the beginning of the hour about the attacks on judges. any given day threats and threats of violence coming in at judges and election officials

and democrats and journalists could fill our whole two hours. what do you worry about most in addition to the safety and security of your own family? >> we are just seeing the multifaceted attack on democracy continue. anybody who stands up to donald trump and the maga right is barraged with threats to ourselves and our families. and the maga strategy is threaten election officials to try to get them to step down, undermine confidence as much as possible with all these lies, suppress the vote, and make it as hard as possible to administer elections. and to an extent the big lie has worked. it's the basis of the security breaches we've seen in this country. some here in the state of colorado. by election officials themselves trying to prove conspiracies. election workers are scared.

they tell us, they have told us since 2020 they are scared. they are stepping down. here in colorado 38% of elected county clerks stepped down since 2020. the threats are to try to destabilize elections. but with that said, i do not think that this far right strategy is going to succeed. the people who step down, people feel really patriotic and they take their places. we have new secretaries of state who know exactly what they're getting into. and i am confident we're going to have great elections. at the same time what is happening in this country when it comes to the threat environment and the lies about our elections is completely unacceptable. >> colorado secretary of state jena griswold. we obviously appreciate you for speaking out. it's not the easiest thing to do when you've been targeted but we're relegate grateful you made all this information public. it's really important. thank you. >> thank you. >> when we come back, the former

trump defense secretary who says he will not, will not, cannot vote for his ex-boss donald trump and every time he does something crazy the door to voting for president biden opens a little bit more for him. how can biden slam that door open and run through it is our next conversation. next conversa.

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i think there's a lot to be concerned about. i've said i believe he's a threat to democracy and we should be very mindful of that. ? so you'll vote for biden?

>> well, you know, with every -- >> bu-bu-bu. [ applause ] >> i'm not there yet. i'm definitely not voting for trump but i'm not there yet. >> the fact that he was donald trump's defense secretary, notwithstanding the hopes of president biden's re-election campaign and by extension the very fate of our democracy rests in the hands of what people like mark esper ultimately do. those americans who but for donald trump wouldn't dream of voting for a democratic candidate president joe biden but now a generational time of choosing is upon all of us. it will be among the president's most critical missions between now and election day, convincing this demographic, the mark espers of the world, to put their country over their party and over their old calcified muscle memory of doing what they think they should do and join a coalition of americans hellbent on protecting our way of life,

protecting our democracy regardless of whose jersey they're wearing. that appeal is the subject of a new ad from republican voters against trump. watch it. >> mike pence knows donald trump better than anyone else, and he knows how dangerous a second trump administration would be. >> i will not be endorsing donald trump this year. >> mike pence is putting country over party. and we will too. >> joining our conversation the founder of republican voters against trump, the publisher of bulwark sarah longwell is back. with me at the table the host of the arm brande podcast donny deutsch is here. i love to do this with both of you as often as we can. but sarah, tell me. you have the data and you have the creative and you have sort of your own institutional muscle memory. what works for bringing along not only mark esper the man but all the mark espers in the country? >> well, look, i think there's two different kinds of sort of never trump audiences and

surrogates. so one is these high-level people like mark esper, like jim mattis, people who worked for donald trump, saw him up close and saw the kind of threat that he is. and their voices are unique and have real persuasion power for some of these college-educated suburban voters who've never liked trump but can sometimes forget the depth of the threat that he represents. and so hearing it from people who worked for him, who had his best interests at heart and the country's interests at heart, who are institutional republicans, they matter to those voters, and i've seen someone like general kelly quoted before suggesting that perhaps it wouldn't matter to voters if he spoke out. and that is wrong. i think that is -- that's something that happens during the primary where whenever these establishment republicans criticize trump it tends to rally people to trump even more. that's true with the base. it is not true with these swing

voters. and so people like esper speaking out is extremely important. it's also important that they go further than just saying that they're against trump. if you say that donald trump is an existential threat to democracy, then you have to also say that you are willing to vote for the one person that keeps donald trump from sitting in the oval office again. and so that message from those messengers is critically important. now, there's another set of messengers that we're focused on, which is sort of real republican voters who aren't going to vote for trump. and that speaks to sort of -- sort of the same audience but those messengers have different powers and different elements of persuasion. but i just think it's critically important that we hear from these high-level officials who saw donald trump up close. i mean, it should be a much bigger story that the vice president who served donald trump is refusing to endorse him. for some reason everybody kind of was like okay, yeah, that

makes sense. you know, donald trump as people stormed the capitol and threatened mike pence's life, i guess why he wouldn't endorse him. this is an enormous thing historically, and it speaks to the depths of donald trump's dangers. and we cut that ad because it's funny how people haven't even internalized how significant it is that mike pence is refusing to endorse donald trump. >> i led the 5:00 hour with it when it happened. pence sort of undersold it when he mentioned it in a fox news interview. we came on and led the hour with it. i had the same reaction. i was like, why isn't this, you know, breaking and -- rolling breaking news? it just never happened in our history that someone's vice president hasn't endorsed him. i want to follow up with you quickly on the generals. this is a conversation donny and i started at the table as well. i think what some of them would say is generals shouldn't be telling people who to vote for. it is also true, though, that the american people were told after september 11th if you see something say something. and you know who saw a whole lot of somethings? the generals. and there's been an extraordinary body of reporting

on what happened in those tank briefings with donald trump. a lot of reporting has come out about john kelly taking messages and direction from trump to be more like the nazis, more like hitler's generals, more like german generals. and i think we get lost in a cloud of trump's ignorance. some of the reporting suggested he didn't know which german generals, which war. but the point is the generals saw firsthand exactly what trump is promising to do if he goes back in the second term, which is to politicize the u.s. military. and if they care about the men and women who serve, i think that they have a duty if not to tell people who to vote for, to tell people who they're going to vote for, no? >> i completely agree with this. look, these are people who have either sent people to die for democracy or themselves have been willing to die on the battlefield for democracy. and the idea that now you say, well, because i, you know, was a general or i wore the uniform it's not right for me to speak

out, you served in donald trump's administration. you understand the importance of democracy. you understand the threat that he represents. and i think that the obligation is total for these people, especially the generals. they would make such a difference. and the permission structure, you know, i live and die by permission structures. and i've always thought courage is contagious. cowardice is contagious too. but courage can be contagious. and when they speak up with the gravitas that they bring, i think that makes an enormous a difference. there's always this collective action problem. right? where just sort of one person comes out and speaks out and then everybody sort of attacks them. there's power in numbers. there's safety in numbers. and that's why you have to build a community and come out and say with one voice, all of these people if they genuinely care about democracy -- and i will say i believe that they do. and actually i'll add one more point. we're running this campaign with

all of these regular republican voters who come out and make these testimonials, these little videos explaining why they as republicans, why they as trump voters refuse to vote for him again. and they put themselves on the line for ridicule or, you know, people coming after them in their communities. if they can do that, these generals and these people who served with donald trump, they can do that. they can have that courage. >> you and i talk a lot about permission structures too. >> yeah. i've been watching your show since the beginning today. and what you covered on was an image of joe biden tied up in a truck, judges being -- children being threatened. election officials being threatened. this is what's in front of us. it's clear. i would ask anybody to look up project 25 in their google. and this is what charlie kirk's and the heritage foundation and trump -- this is what they want to do to the executive branch. have the ftc and fcc report to it. bring up the insurrection act so the military can be sicced on its own people.

dismantle the fbi. take apart the justice department. these institutions have to start behaving differently now, starting with the generals. by the way -- i came on the show a couple months ago and said get four of those generals, get mattis, mcmaster, milley and -- >> kelly. >> kelly. to a camera talking. they need -- if you want the military to stay as it is, independent of the president's whims, you have to speak up. if you're a ceo and you don't want your company at the beck and call of trump to say you're going, you're going, you stay, you go, you need to speak up. if you're in the media and you want to continue to have a free media and not have donald trump call up comcast and say i don't like msnbc and they're going to go off the air or i'm dismantling your company, these people that have always been on the sidelines, corporate america, the military, the justice department, have got to start to speak up. we are under siege. if you can't see it, i don't get it.

it's happening in slow motion. and if you love this country -- the irony is trump preaches about patriotism and love of country, yet he wants to blow up everything that's great about it. >> he hates america. >> so if you love this country, if you're any of those people i mentioned, and if you believe people died for us 250 years ago and have died for us 50 years ago and 100 years ago, this is a time we all have to start behaving differently. this is a different kind of enemy. this is an enemy from within. i call you troubled all the time, like aah! we're in defcon 3. and the institutions, if they want to hold, have to start acting differently now. or they won't be in existence as we know them after. >> okay. so we're going to -- i have to sneak in a break, but we're going to together on tv take these four institutions -- i mean, i think you know because we talk about it on and off tv, i think that there is an inertia to inaction. and i love what sarah's talking about about courage being contagious.

i want to ask both of you if it just takes one to get this going in each of those silos because i'm stunned that -- in business, in russia not all the oligarchs made out well. >> 80% of them are dead. >> so the idea they'll be fine if the economy's fine is ludicrous. it's a fantasy. we have to sneak in a quick break. they're playing me off like the grammys. we'll be right back. >> i talked too long. grammys. we'll be right back. >> i talked too long

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we are back.

the other piece that i am constantly compounded by is wire business is going to hungary and moscow saying we don't want this? >> trump is good for business, that is the irony. this is one other instance people are not truly looking for. i understand why ceo is afraid of being singled out, the corporate america has to understand, fortune 500 companies, if trump is elected the rules will be different. all you have to do is look at what putin is doing. we will have our own version of oligarch. things are going to be so different in every single area. business is one of them. i talked to business people. no, if you are a ceo and your kid tweet something like a judges kid tweeted something or

was a part of something, he will go after your company. it is not business as usual, no pun intended. people are not getting that. >> what breakthrough to them when you talk to them? >> i think there is a psychological condition, i don't know the term. it is the way atrocities happened in germany . people cannot accept and they choose to not embrace it. i will say these things and they will look at me like i'm crazy. this is happening in slow motion. >> this is the hallmark of what republican voters are saying, this is not being discovered in big scoops from the glorious newspaper journalist that covered him. this is step trump is saying at the podium. i guess i wonder if he means

what he says literally or figuratively. he clearly means all literally. >> he clearly means that all literally. when i listen to voters you can tell what donald trump has done, and i cannot swear on your program, and i'm quoting steve bennett when he says that the zone with stuff. they want to flood the zone was so much garbage people feel overwhelmed. you are asking voters to process 88 felony counts. you're asking them to process all the millions in civil fines. at some point these things come together and they are a white noise. like when donnie is talking about people's eyes glazing over, there are multiple components. there is a fax there is so much coming at you all the time people have difficulty processing. there is also this idea of not believing. the companies are thinking to themselves maybe he will cut taxes and regulations and in

four years things will go back to normal. i think this is on the big misunderstandings. we are not going back. the republican party and the business community needs to understand let's say it is not the worst thing that ever happened, the republican party is still not going to be the party that it was ever again. it has fundamentally changed and going in a different direction. one that is going to destabilize the business community and our democracy if people do not speak up. speak up, now. >> would need to go with all four categories. i am so grateful to both of you. can we continue this? >> any time. >> absolutely. >> thank you so much. o much.

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