a white nationalist tied to their city and council. >> brandy zadrozny, the conversation was very much how that city elected somebody who was at the march in charlottesville where they were holding tiki torches and chants jews will not replace us. brandy, thank you very much, deadline white house starts right now. ♪♪ hi there, everyone, it's 4:00 in new york. special counsel jack smith today taking on trump's delay tactics and the one persona position to call it out for what it really is, a political ploy disguised as a legal strategy. judge aileen cannon, frustrations with the judge in the mar-a-lago documents case boiling over in a filing late last night regarding instructions to the potential jury in the trial. smith asked the judge to hurry

up and rule on what is team trump's most brazen claims that the documents trump horded in mar-a-lago in a bathroom, a bedroom and a basement, documents containing some of this nation's most secret and protected national security secrets actually belonged rightfully to trump because the presidential records act, or the pra. special counsel writing this, the court should be wlaer at the outset that trump's entire effort to rely on the pra is not based on any facts, it is a post hock justification that was concocted more than a year after he left the white house, importantly, trump has never, never represented to this court that he, in fact, designated the classified documents as personal. he made no such claim in this motion to dismiss in his reply, or at the hearing on march 14th, 2024. despite every opportunity, and every incentive to do so. and the reason is simple.

he never did so. now, here's why smith wants to settle this particular issue once and for all right now, times reports it like this, quote, at a hearing last month judge cannon herself expressed skepticism about trump's assertion saying it was most likely not enough to dismiss the case before it went the trial. but then, then, within days she made a surprising move, ordering the former president's lawyers and mr. smith's prosecutors to send her proposed jury instructions, suggesting she was open to embracing the very same defense. wow. as legal experts point out, that is highly unusual. it's a highly unusual order since any instructions for a jury are dealt with in the days and weeks before a trial happens, and cannon, as we all know for her part hasn't even set a trial date. cannon's request has also set off alarm bells inside the special counsel's office. on that front the times reports this, quote, by appearing to adopt trump's position on the

presidential records act, the judge seemed to be nudging any eventual jurors toward acquitting trump or even leaving open the possibility that she herself could quit trump by the end of the proceeding by defending that the government had -- prosecutors are asking her to rule on trump's claim that the documents belong to thimm. if the court wrongly concludes that it does the special counsel can appeal to higher court. smith's push for a quick decision comes after months of chaos created by judge aileen cannon with hearings on arguments, many federal judges would have rejected out of hand, end quote. wow. weeks have gone by. and there's been nothing to appeal, right? no rulings, no word from the judge on important logistical issues either, all of it playing directly into what we all know is trump's big political strategy to delay all of the

trials until after the november election. and today, today's news on this front, is that trump seems to, wittingly or unwittingly, be getting some help in that effort from judge aileen cannon. his strategy of delay, delay, delay is always more frustrating for any person, any person who would like to see these cases adjudicated. the criminal cases involving donald trump, and of this one, the criminal documents probe, is one that even bill barr, his former attorney general, describes as open and shut. listen to more of the people who work for trump. >> if you were still representing donald trump, which of all these cases would you be most concerned about? >> classified documents case. >> why? >> i think that that is the case that is the most likely to survive an appeal. >> clearly, it was unauthorized, illegal, and dangerous. >> this is such a tight case, the evidence is so overwhelming. >> this was a case that entirely of his own making. he had no right to those

documents. the government tried for over a year quietly and with respect to get them back, which was essential that they do, and he jerked them around. and he had no legal basis for keeping them. >> he had no legal basis for keeping them, said bill barr, it's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends, former u.s. attorney, former deputy assistant attorney harry lipman, and republican congressman msnbc political analyst david jolly is back and politico national correspondent and msnbc contributor betsy -- is here. harry lipman, i don't want to need a law degree to understand this answer so, tell me, in plain english, what jack smith can do. >> he can force her to rule, and if she doesn't bring a -- called a mandamus, the legal thing.

>> see, we can't do it. >> okay, i'll do better. her rule -- her order was not only bizarre, but it was dangerous because it suggested she could totally, you know, sort of the judicial equivalent of the perfect crime, actually acquit him after trial had started. this is the most important filing jack smith has done since the indictment itself. it's very hard nose. it says we're done with this, i'm not going to follow your suggestion, and moreover, judge, you need to rule on this now. you can't just keep dithering. if you don't, there are ways to, and it's the best method we can, we've been casting about, how do we get her off the case? there are ways to get the court above you to require you to do it, maybe you haven't done anything we can glom onto yet, now we're telling you, if you don't rule here, and you leave this possibility open, we are taking you up to the 11th

circuit, and asking them to get you off the case. is that plain english enough? >> that's pretty good. trump's not play ago legal game, he's playing a political game. i'm done trying to understand the legal landscape because this is -- whether we like it or not we're playing trump's game, jack smith is, aileen cannon sure as hell is. and i want to understand how a judge is entertaining an argument that trump doesn't believe, here's trump, making abundantly clear on audio tape that he doesn't think these things are his, this is him waving around something he knows is classified, that was created by general mark milley. listen. >> with millee, let me see that, i've got to show you an example, he said that i wanted to attack iran. isn't amazing, a big pile of

papers, this was him, they presented me this. this is off the record. they presented me this. this was him, this was the defense department and him. >> you did. >> this was done by the military, given to me. i think we can probably -- right? >> i don't know, we'll have to see, we'll have to try to -- >> declassify it. as president, i could have classified it, now i can't, but this is classified. >> trump in his own voice, i can't show it to you because it's classified and when i was president i could have declassified it and shown it to you if i wanted to but now i can't. he knows, he knows these are not personal records. >> that's right. so, two problems with the argument that he keeps making and making and making. one, no facts. no law. but cannon has not only been indulging him on it, because he does keep making it on the papers but she's been suggesting most recently, most ominously,

she could kind of actually grant him his fondest wish after the jury is seated, and then there's no recourse because it's double jeopardy, you can't go back. and it's here now, they've been, i think, trying to find out, how can we try to get her off? and they've decided, now's the time, we're going to tell her, quit messing around, you've got to cut bait on this if you want to rule that there's something valid here, go ahead and do it, we'll take it on appeal. if you want to rule that there isn't, go ahead and do it but don't be dithering in the middle, and if you keep doing it, there are ways for us to force your hand. that's -- it's a very forceful, and really kind of cheeky pushback of a motion from smith, and it could change the dynamic of the whole case. >> so, if it's cheeky, i mean, why not just directly claim that there's a conflict of interest? even the witnesses don't think that there's a good faith effort to protect them?

let me show you one of the witnesses changing his life, going public because of what he's afraid judge cannon is going to do. this is brian butler. >> yeah. >> why are you speaking out publicly with your story now? >> well, i mean, it's been almost a year since fbi agents showed up at my house when my wife was at home, and, you know, over the course of the last year emotionally it's been a roller coaster, a couple weeks ago judge cannon says she's going to release the names of the witnesses, you know, you go from highs and lows in this. and instead of just waiting for it to just come out i think it's better that i get to at least say what happened, than it coming out in the news, people calling me like crazy. i'd rather just get it out there. >> this is a witness in a criminal trial, afraid of what the defendant will do once judge cannon releases the witnesses. is there -- i mean, tell me what you think is being navigated behind the scenes, what the

deepest concerns are on the part of jack smith and the witnesses? >> it's the perfect point, the way he put it, nicole, he's scared of what will happen, jack smith is scared of what will happen, but cannon has been very kind of careful not to do it yet, suggest that she might. if she were actually to rule in a way that endangered him, boom, you have an appeal to the 11th circuit. but, until she does, that's what you need. you need an order. and what's matters about this motion is jack smith has told them, told her, if you don't do an order, that very fact that you're not doing an order is what we are going to bring up to the court of appeals. you've been suggesting things, making all of us scared, but not actually giving anything for the court to glom onto in the 11th circuit, now we're letting you know, rule or we're going to take you up anyway for not ruling. that's an unusual thing to do, but they've perfectly set the table to do it. >> you know, betsy, this is such

a hallmark trump crime, he doesn't deny the facts, especially the criminal, the ones that make it criminal, doesn't deny taking the documents, keeping the documents, doesn't deny the fact of the photos, where the documents were held, his only twist on it, and you can see it sort of making the smoke start to come out of the ears of people like sean hannity when he interviews about it, is he says, his version of when you're president they let you do it. that's it. >> yeah, that's right, and that's one of the things, excuse me, that jack smith highlighted in the draft jury instructions that he wrote, of course, following an order from judge cannon that he simultaneously argued was borderline nonsensical. in one of these draft jury directions that smith proposed, he basically said, the jury will be directed to find trump not guilty if they decide that these are personal records, oh, and by the way, trump's lawyers are arguing that everything that left the white house under his watch, and didn't go to the

national archives is a personal record. from the standpoint of jack smith's team, this is an unwinnable situation, and the judge might as well, if she really believes this, and really wants to stick to her guns on the legal analysis that she's very seriously entertaining, might as well just call the entire thing off, and clearly, in the view of the justice department, that would be preposterous, and in the view of a whole host of legal experts, including bill barr, that would be preposterous, this is for jack smith and his team, they're in a very unusual situation and of course that's why we're seeing this unusual pre-gaming of, again, an unusual appellate strategy, from trump's standpoint, making this an argument about the law rather than about the facts is helpful for two reasons, first, of course, it certainly seems in the view of him and his lawyers, the facts are not super helpful. and second, having this become a drawn out legal fight only

ratchets up the likelihood this thing won't go to trial before election day. of course the complexity for jack smith and his team is once they file an appeal, go to the 11th circuit to try to get involved, that also extends the timeline, and all of this makes the upcoming hush money payments trial, that's scheduled to start this month in manhattan, all the more important because at this point in time, where we sit, it's possible that that's going to be the only time trump will go on trial before election day. >> david jolly, lives by a code, betsy is a journalist, lives by a code. you and i are not hemmed in by a code. what is happening here the judicial system is now bending itself around a wanna beautocrat who has corrupted a system that exists to protect the defendant as a brazen and out in the open

political strategy. and do not believe me. i promise i won't through my papers, that would be triggering everyone that watches on the right. hi, guys. trump isn't dealing with this as a legal problem. he's playing jack smith and aileen cannon as political players and i wonder if you think our institutions have any muscles to fight back. >> yeah, and nicole, i'm so glad you frame of mind it that way, we're kind of reading each other's minds on this one. there's not only legal strategy and political strategy and there's an autocratic strategy. that's at the root of your comment. what donald trump is asking cannon to do is to render the presidential records act meaningless, meaningless, really doesn't apply to him and it's the basics of what he's asking the judge to rule and he's asking the judge to do it in a way that would then lock out federal prosecutors from any opportunity to appeal, which is

why you saw thrush of a motion last night by jack smith. if aileen cannon decides to instruct the jury that the pra doesn't apply as it's written, it's -- game's over, and so, what does that mean in terms of the broader questions and conversations around autocracy? it's this. we have -- we have largely seen, during the initial trump term, you know, one of the comforts, although it's been a soft one, is that the courts largely held it was painful at times, it wasn't always consistent, but the courts largely held, in checking the executive power, and checking executive authority, on january 6th, the senate held and mike pence held, but if cannon moves in this direction, what you're actually seeing is a court begin to thaw, a court begin to topple, a court begin to participate in this autocratic movement that donald trump is unleashing on the country. that's the blinking red light. that really means, when donald

trump says i can shoot somebody on fifth avenue or the law doesn't apply to me. that's a court saying you're right, donald trump, you're right, mr. president, let me show you the red carpet back to the oval office, it's actually illegally, this is a tricky issue to really understand, harry did a great job, thank you for that, but in terms of the autocratic movement in the united states this legal decision holds a lot of import. >> let me just follow up with you, david jolly. it doesn't even matter if we get to that point or not, right? it doesn't even matter if the presidential records act is viewed the way trump wants it viewed. the fact that she's not ruled at all, so that jack smith can't appeal a ruling, is not lost on her. and i would -- until the end of time, like to know whose idea that was, not sure if it was hers. maybe it was. i'm not sure i've seen a lawyer articulate a legal reason for not ruling at all. but what do you make of the

success in gumming up the legal process, not overdisputed facts, these facts are not disputed by donald trump, they're not disputed by bill barr, not disputed by evan corcoran, a key witness in this who was one of trump's lawyers while he committed the crimes of obstructing this very investigation. this one is a perfect one to it shall frankly doesn't dispute any of the facts of the insurrection case either. but, where are we, if even before we get to what you just laid out, it's simply delayed to a point where there won't be a trial before the election. >> yeah, look, so donald trump's strategy, when it comes to judgeships, aided and abetted by mitch mcconnell and senate republicans is working. on policy he got the dobbs decision, we've heard him talk about his judges on the supreme court, you better believe that donald trump thinks that this judge cannon has been put in place to decide the right way.

and done so as part of the coordinated republican effort around jungles. what does it mean in terms of the overall strategy to return to the white house? it is a strategy of delay, or in this case, and this is why this is so severe compared to the others, this case seemed to be lumbering along, all the sudden this might be the case that gets tossed out by a federal judge and it's over before it gets started. we haven't seen that. we really haven't seen that and that is a victory lap for donald trump, and a motivator for republicans to just continue to ignore the judiciary and expect that they'll eventually fall line with trump and trumpism. >> last word, what david just said is absolutely the flashing red light on the national security side because what this is about, is something that journalists like yourself, and the folks at the "new york times" and the "washington post" reported out day after day and that was complete indifference to the sanctity of classified documents, of the work of the intelligence community, of the sanctity of the stars on the

wall at the cia, what this is about is about the handling of state secrets, what other concerns in national security circles, if the scenario, david jolly, laid out comes to pass? >> well it just suggests that any future president who thinks about america's most closely guarded secrets, the same way trump does, would be able to treat them the same way trump has with impunity, and one piece of this case that i can tell you just drives low-level rank and file national security and intelligence community officials nuts is the simple fact that setting aside all this legal, all these legal issues that trump is having, there's the very real public safety and national security reasons that these types of materials are kept so closely held, rather than being parked next to toilets in a country club. the reason for that is is that people's lives are at stake. people helped the u.s. intelligence community by taking great personal risks, the people

in the intelligence community often operate in dangerous situations under great personal risks. and to treat the product of that work like it's something that can be cavalierly strewn about is just a deeply chilling and disturbing to the people who do that work themselves. >> thank you for making us smarter, and starting us off to do. david jolly sticks around for the hour. new reporting on what trump and his extremist allies are planning, what they've put on paper and planned should he return for a second term as president. it involves a dramatic reshaping of civil rights era laws in this country. plus, what is being done ahead of november to prevent another constitutional crisis as anti-democratic forces are laying the groundwork to challenge the election should donald trump lose again. we'll look at those, and later in the broadcast, what we're learning about the retired navy serviceman who police say rammed his car into an fbi field office in atlanta. and the new questions that it's raising about home grown

terrorism, all those stories and more when "deadline white house" continues after a quick break, don't go anywhere today. 3 out of 4 people achieved 90% clearer skin at 4 months. and skyrizi is just 4 doses a year after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. nothing on my skin means everything! ♪ nothing is everything ♪ ask your dermatologist about skyrizi. learn how abbvie could help you save.

they need their lawn back fast and you need scotts turf builder rapid grass. it grows grass 2 times faster than just seed alone. giving you a stronger lawn. smell that freedom, eh? get scotts turf builder rapid grass today, it's guaranteed. feed your lawn. feed it. hi, i'm kim, and i lost 67 pounds on golo. when i go out with people, they expect me to eat like a bird. they are shocked by the amount of food i eat while losing weight. with golo, i don't need a cheat day because i get to eat the foods i like any day of the week.

business. it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning. the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions and round the clock partnership from comcast business. see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. >> tech: cracked windshield? schedule with safelite, and we'll come to you to fix it. >> tech vo: this customer was enjoying her morning walk. we texted her when we were on our way. and she could track us and see exactly when we'd arrive. >> woman: i have a few more minutes. let's go! >> tech vo: we came to her with service that fit her schedule. >> woman: you must be pascal. >> tech: nice to meet you. >> tech vo: we got right to work, with a replacement she could trust. we come to you for free! schedule now for free mobile service at safelite.com.

>> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ the ex-president is focused on his stay out of prison political campaign, the extremists who gnaw make up some of trump's closest policy advisers for a potential second term are plotting out trump's priorities, which are in short protections for the people who look and sound and think like he does. axios reports a second trump administration will look to strip away policies which date back to the civil rights movement. targets would range from decades-old policies aimed at

giving minorities economic opportunities, to more recent programs that began in response to the pandemic, and the murder of george floyd. this 2024 campaign of revenge and retribution has included a new theme of saying all of the quiet icky parts out loud and proud when it comes to race. two separate campaign rallies, he called undocumented migrants, quote, animals. and quote, not human. wisconsin, he used the term subhuman. joining me at the table democratic strategist and director of the public policy program at hunter college, david's back with us, and i guess we're part of the problem because when this happened in '15, and he came down the escalator and said mexico isn't sending their good people, they're sending the rapists and the murders, we all led with it. i didn't see this on the newspaper, and the story is a couple days old, we're just

getting to it. some of it is we've all become numb with the horrific ways he describes humans. >> i wake up every day expecting this. i look for it and i expect it. it's interesting there was an article a few days ago saying there's a growing number of young men are becoming more and more conservative, and i thought to myself, what's -- how -- is that happening here? we see it in many ways happening here, largely because trump is doing what he believes and knows is resonating some place. right? we -- you know, what we call minority in this country is actually a global majority and it is becoming the majority in this country very, very soon and he's tapping into that anger, he's tapping into that fear, so when there is this backlash to dei, for example, and we have a lot of voters in this country that say, well, i'm voting for the lesser of two evils, no, you're not, because one person is intent upon looking at who

you are as a person, looking at your race, and looking at your ethnicity, and diminishing everything you are, and everything that you've become, so what it takes from me to be able to sit with you at this table, or what it means for a young student to see someone that looks like me walk into a classroom, whether it's k-12 or higher ed, not only donald trump, but all of his enablers are trying to end that. there's always been backlash to progress in this country, whether it was a backlash to brown versus board of ed, and a school district in virginia closed its schools for five years so they didn't have to take black students, backlash to -- backlash to lbj, we saw that in nixon's southern strategy, the backlash to barack obama, to george floyd, to all the progress african americans and other groups, latinos, asian americans have made over the past several decades. and it will not end. and i think that's what we have to drill into, to so many

people. >> let me just follow up. i want to hear everything you said. you're describing people who see trying to decide the lesser of two evils and you're around students all day. if young people truly think that do they know what trump is going to do? this is where i'm worried that we've become numb to -- i think it got the appropriate attention when he said everyone they send is a rapist, it shocked the media, it was on the front page of every paper, i remember the pictures with the escalator. we might even have some of that. but now, you know, people know that he's talking with people on both sides of the kkk rally. and migrants poisoning the blood of the nation. said this at two rallies, i think it got attention from beat reporters but not the revulsion that it should generate. >> in part, and i think this relates to something i said with you yesterday, in some ways many of us believe that we can rely on the institutions to kind of set these guardrails, but what i

try to inculcate into folks is that these institutions are comprised by people, most of the time well-meaning public servants, but how many thousands of jobs are available to the president to fill at his will across the federal bureaucracy? if you think about the thousands of jobs that are available in the people that think the way that he does in these institutions, then you will not have faith that they will actually, at the end of the day, have these guardrails and create them and make sure that, you know, that they're adhering to not just law, but are setting a vision that is so anti-us, and so, i think, for a lot of folks that are concerned about, or believe that they're voting for lesser of two evils, i get them to think about institutions, in many ways distrustful of that, i guess as a young voter i probably was too. >> sure. >> but based on where i am in my life right now and for all of us, the goal i think is to get a lot of voters who are distrustful of a lot of

governments who believe in the institutions and the people who are at the heads of them and if they think about it that way, they'll not just focus on trump and his rhetoric but he'll start paying attention to who's around him, who is appointing, and that matters. >> david, no one's coming to save us. it is us. it is us. it is the voters, and if that doesn't get you vote. i have to sneak in a break. we'll have that conversation on the other side. allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see. otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis allison! over here! otezla can help you get clearer skin and reduce itching and flaking. with no routine blood tests required. doctors have been prescribing otezla for nearly a decade. otezla is also approved to treat psoriatic arthritis. don't use otezla if you're allergic to it. serious allergic reactions can happen. otezla may cause severe diarrhea, nausea, or vomiting.

some people taking otezla had depression, suicidal thoughts or weight loss. upper respiratory tract infection and headache may occur. with clearer skin girls' day out is a good day out. live in the moment. ask your doctor about otezla. new projects means new project managers. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. when you sponsor a job, you immediately get your shortlist of quality candidates, whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. visit indeed.com/hire and get started today. hi, i'm jason. i've lost 228 pounds on golo. ♪ whose resumes on indeed match your job criteria. i don't ever want to go back to wearing a 4xl shirt or not being able to climb up stairs without taking a break.

so i'm committed to golo for life.

at st. jude, the mission is just something that everyone can truly get behind. look at our little st. jude pin there on the fridge! we're just regular people donating. yeah. and i think it's cool to be able to make a difference in someone's lives in a way that is meaningful. we're back with basil and david, david, the whole idea that any voter is choosing

between thelesser of two evils, i know that's the conversation that happens off tv all the time. i can't let it go, though, because, one is truly running on evil ideas, like calling human beings subhuman, i mean, a human is by nature not subhuman, they're human, and the notion, and this is our failure, right, the horror and the reaction was proportionate to the horror of the things he said when he called all mexicans who come here rapists and murderers, but we are failing, this is a huge deal. and there's an architect putting policy behind the venom. his name is stephen miller. if you were horrified by the muslim ban, buckle up because trump doesn't accidentally call migrants subhuman, he says it because the campaign is about putting policy behind that, to treat humans, some of them, as subhuman. >> yeah, this is not a contest between a lesser of two evils, donald trump is running to take away your rights, and joe biden

is running to fight for your rights. that is not a race between two different evils. and i -- look, i think -- i love this conversation because there is a certain editorial duty, i think, to everyone in industry to begin to approach this differently than eight years ago. lodging the accusation of racism has sometimes felt like a social accusation that we need to be cautious about, but it can also be a qualitative determination. so, when donald trump says that immigrants are poisoning the blood of americans, that is racist, xenophobic, vile and inhumane. that is suggesting that people of one race or ethnicity sit below those of another. that's racist. so it became routine not to bury it or not to report it, but it was routine to see it on the front page above the fold. donald trump continues his campaign of racism in trying to return to the white house. i mean, it is a qualitative determination, it's not a social accusation, and if we're missing the boat somewhere, it's that,

it's the whistling past the graveyard. and where does it come in, in policy? immigration policy is clear, they will shut down any immigration, you know, immigration from countries that they determine are not white or european enough, but on other policies, domestic policies, one of the things that they will do in the name of kind of combatting anti-white racism is try to achieve race-neutral policies. that is a hot bed of experimentation in the states right now. ron desantis has done it as well, and they want this new supreme court to test the jurisprudence around race neutral policies. the rest of the country would realize, we're rolling back policy 50 years if we really suggest that there has been no systemic discrimination that has impacted marginalized communities today and therefore the country can now look past it. that's where this ends up. >> to that note, david jolly, let me read you this reporting in axios.

in 2021, stephen miller's group successfully sued to block the implementation of a $29 billion pandemic-era program for women in minority owned restaurants saying the law discriminated against white-owned businesses. such groups gained momentum with the turn to the right. the court ruled that programs designed to benefit people of color and address past injustices discriminate against white and asian americans. in 2021 a federal judge blocked a $4 billion program to help black farmers. the problem is just look at the voting rights architecture, right, republicans used to argue, i think when you and i were both still republicans, we don't need it anymore. what are republicans doing? they're eliminating the access to vote in all of the ways that primarily, not exclusively, but many minorities vote, and people with less sort of freedom over their work schedule. so, they are actively working to make the playing field uneven in

every corner of american civic life. >> that's right. look, the last century is replete with hard-fought victories by the civil rights movement to recognize, to put into the law and the policy that our foundations, which elevated the white slave-owning, land-owning male, actually created discriminate impacts for generations to come and those have existed all the way, certainly through the '60s when we saw the civil rights right and voting rights act, and you can argue they exist now in different zip code in which certain communities live, the right wants to say, no, we can go race, neutral, color blind and another example where they want to test the th, when it comes to drawing district lines, it happened in the state of florida, ron desantis wanted race neutral lines, the republican super majority said that's going too far because the courts won't let us do it.

what was said about desantis but a republican colleague is this, republicans currently have drawn the lines in accordance with the constitution, desantis wants them drawn with what he wants the constitution to be, and that is what stephen miller, ron desantis, donald trump, and everyone wants to test in front of their newly accommodating supreme court. this race neutral idea that abandons a century of hard-fought victories in civil rights and voting rights. >> this next thing i'm going to share with you bolsters my musing that perhaps we should see more of trump's dismal performances at his rallies. he invoked a true tragedy, the problem is he lied about it. let me read this to you. trump went on and on about ruby garcia who was brutally murdered and found dumped on the side of the highway. brandon ortiz has confessed to her illing in the united states illegally. according to "the washington post" trump said he spoke to the murder vibt's family, the victim's sister said it never happened, quote, she lit up the

room, and i've heard that from so many people trump said in a news conference in the hometown of the 25-year-old victim ruby garcia, quote, i spoke to some of her family, quote, but garcia's sister acting as the family spokeswoman said that tuesday trump's campaign have not contacted her or other immediate relatives and rebuke the gop presidential nominee's effort to make the case part of his calls for a border crackdown. >> good for them, good for them, and that's what i was saying, more people need to stand up and stand down and i understand the fear that comes with that. but, this is what well-meaning people have to do in this moment in time is just stand up, and we as the folks who are encouraging it need to be able to encircle them and find ways to protect them, and support them. that's why, you know, david's point is so important about, you know, the qualitative information. i can give you the quantitative information. right? the fact that, as you talk about voting rights, the center for justice put out a report saying that in the areas where the supreme court gutted the voting rights act, there is a growing divide over the last, i think,

ten or so years, between black turnout and white turnout. and are attributing it specifically to the gutting of the voting rights act. when we think about -- >> doesn't it get turbocharged between -- >> absolutely right, and it's going to -- it's clear that on -- when you layer on top of that all of the opportunities or chances that the republicans want to suppress that vote, it's going to be worse. when you talk about the reference to people of color as being subhuman, like we feel that, because how many times do we get the feeling that we're seen as having a high threshold for pain and a low threshold for intelligence? and how that dominates so much of our policy? so much so that black women concerned about their own maternal health are looking more towards doulas and midwives because there's a concern what happens when they go in to get care. so there is both qualitative and quantitative information that

exists to suggest, to show how disparate our lives are because of the influence of systemic and institutional racism. so, when you talk to voters about why this moment is important is because you have an opportunity to shape these institutions in ways that you'd never had. but at the same time, if you don't stay engaged and don't become a part of it it will shape your life in a way it never did, and a far more negative fashion. >> that's the threat. thank you so much, we sort of did our own ripping up of the scripts. thank you for having this conversation with me, for indulging it, to be continued. david jolly, thank you for starting us off today, basil sticks around.

(♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. my mental health was better. but uncontrollable movements called td, tardive dyskinesia, started disrupting my day. td felt embarrassing. i felt like disconnecting. i asked my doctor about treating my td, and learned about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ ingrezza is clinically proven for reducing td. most people saw results in just two weeks.

people taking ingrezza can stay on most mental health meds. only number-one prescribed ingrezza has simple dosing for td: always one pill, once daily. ingrezza can cause depression, suicidal thoughts, or actions in patients with huntington's disease. pay close attention to and call your doctor if you become depressed, have sudden changes in mood, behaviors, feelings, or have thoughts of suicide. don't take ingrezza if you're allergic to its ingredients. ingrezza may cause serious side effects, including angioedema, potential heart rhythm problems, and abnormal movements. report fevers, stiff muscles, or problems thinking as these may be life threatening. sleepiness is the most common side effect. take control by asking your doctor about ingrezza. ♪ ingrezza ♪ your shipping manager left to “find themself.” leaving you lost. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

as donald trump barrels toward making the kind of history we all know he doesn't want to make being the first american ex-president to ever stand trial criminally there's some breaking news in the last few minutes on that front. judge denied a last ditch delay bid by trump to derail the hush money trial set to begin in less that two weeks, the ex-president tried to claim one of his favorite hat tricks, presidential immunity, regarding important pieces of evidence in this case, today the judge saying, quite frankly, it is too late to litigate the immunity claim. joining us at the table, as she does most days, msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin. >> nicole, how are you? >> tell me what this was about.

>> we're in a universe where we're dealing with motions that were filed this week to derail the trial. we've been talking about potentially recusing the judge, for example, this is a motion that feels like it was filed a lifetime ago but in actuality was filed on march 7th. just a week after the supreme court granted cert, or review of the immunity decision before judge chutkan then. trump went before the judge and said because the supreme court is going to consider whether they presidential immunity argument is valid you should postpone this trial, and so the supreme court can rule on that, and also, you should hold that the state here, meaning manhattan da's office should not be able to introduce evidence of my official acts that might be evidence in this trial, including, for example, tweets that i sent that they say were efforts to intimidate witnesses in the case, namely michael cohen. the judge deciding today, trump's motion was not timely. he said trump could have filed a motion, either to preclude evidence or to save himself from

prosecution on presidential immunity grounds at any time, and failed to do so, until early march, he denied it on that basis alone, but also said he's declining to consider whether or not evidence writ large should be excluded on the basis that that evidence reflects official acts taken by a former president. >> let me read some of this ruling today. so, the judge -- passed the statutory period allotted the about the had ample notice that the people were in possession of and intended the use various statements allegedly made by the defendant on social media in public and in various interview, also well aware that defense of presidential immunity even if unsuccessful might be available to him. for example, it was discussed more fully below, the defendant fully brief it had issue of presidential immunity in his potion to dismiss the matter in the united states versus trump, the chutkan case. what seems to be happening and i

want to ask you to take your legal hat off, the judge is calling b.s. on what is not a political strategy at all, but a political strategy. he can read a poll. say whatever you want about donald trump, he can read a poll and the christy campaign and a lot of other primary campaigns had polling that suggested a criminal conviction was not the boon that trump will act publicly like it is for his candidacy. >> look, i was here with you on the day where the supreme court granted cert, that was a very somber day buzz it represented an opportunity to really delay and derail the one case that many of us of us thought would be tried before the election. and yet, it was an incredible gift to former president trump. not only in respect to that case but potentially others. >> right. >> because he had already moved to dismiss the georgia indictment on immunity grounds and we thought he would try presidential immunity in this case. one thing that judge merchan is

saying here, you had ample opportunity to raise that in this case. one of the thing he mentions, he doesn't discuss it at great length, they did actually try to litigate this issue in the case. when donald trump was first indicted. and in his efforts to move the case to the southern district of the new york, the federal court here in manhattan, he said, i have a colorable argument on federal grounds. i want to tell you that i'm constitutionally entitled to presidential immunity. that failed the judge saying that was laughable. so he's known, at least with respect to that case, that he argument's been dead for a long time, nevertheless, trying to delay the inevitable, as you said. >> what are we learning from judge merchan with these filings? >> i think one of the things we're learning about judge merchan he keeps his docket tidy. right? he's got a lot of different

motions that might fail a lesser judge in terms of keeping track of them all, deciding them all before trial begins. this is a person who wants to check all the boxes, right. i have a bunch of motions before me that could potentially throw this trial off track. i'm going to dispense with all of them and do it thoughtfully before april 15th. >> what we see him, issue decisions, for example on the recusal and on the trial on another basis that trump is trying to delay the trial in the coming days, nicolle, as the april 15th deadline comes closer and closer. >> you know what they say about love and hate being the most closely aligned emotions. michael cohen and hope hicks, talk about what the two witnesses do to donald trump. >> you mean in terms of how they feel? >> how he acts. >> i don't know how he acts in the courtroom. certainly, donald trump has to

nope hope hicks is a witness against him. she testified in the state grand jury process that led up to the indictment. we know that she was photographed with her lawyer. we're all well aware she's a participant here. we have to imagine she's going to testify truthfully. one of the things i want to remind people, hope hicks has already testified truthfully to donald trump's detriment before the january 6 committee. she gave a very long and reviewing one as well reflecting her final break with donald trump. it wasn't as acrimonious as some have been. she was very clear with him. i don't think the i election has been stolen, sir. you tried everything to delay and stall that, you tried the litigation, but that ship has sailed. and we're done here. and he knew that, nonetheless, he doesn't seem to be angry with her yet. and it remains to be seen -- >> you can just write it yourself, though. hardly knew her. there was no one closer to him.

kathy who was sitting where you are, was told to dye her hair the same color as hope hicks. the hush money trial features michael cohen as a star witness. what's different, these were the two people closest, not politically, but personally, she's were the persons who ironed his pants. and hope hicks, it was reported in "the new york times" or "the washington post" sent a text after january 6th, you got to hand it to her on branding and reputation, she said we're all going to be thought of as terrorists, basically, domestic terrorists. the idea that there's a trial coming, i don't know if donald trump sleeps or not, it has to be weighing on him. >> oh, he's seething. it made me think, i'm not an attorney, but if i try to separate the judge's role from being the attorney but also being the manager of a process,

he wants to get this thing done. >> yeah. >> he wants to get this done. because given all that's what's happening around this trial and multiple trials, you know, why -- he can probably imagine more opportunities for the trump team to drag this out. and as we've been talking about, it's both delay and intimidate, those tactics work hand in hand. and if he has that in his mind at all, he's probably saying to himself, look, let's get this done. let's keep this train moving in the interest of justice. and we would add a layer of that which is accountability. but i have to think that he's seething, because he values, more than anything, loyalty. >> right. >> may i say one other thing about hope? the witness that hope hicks reminds me most of in his own orbit is his own daughter ivanka who came to the civil trial and instead offed and was found to be more credible by judge goran than her two brothers. she was also found to not be a

defendant in the case, she finagled her way out on statute of limitations. hope hicks is not going to be so lucky. she may stand in a similar position in donald trump's affection, unlike ivanka who said i don't remember what i exchanged in 2012. hope hicks has a situation credible to the setup of the stormy daniels payoff, it won't be credible for her to say, i don't remember that phone call. theoretically, her testimony thus far is a building block of the indictment itself. so i think you see a person walking into that courtroom still holds a place in donald trump's heart but i don't know she'll keep it once she walks out. >> i'm sorry you can never be too farle away from the table. we're grateful that you're here. >> thank you. >> lisa rubin, thank you, basil, thank you for the hour. it wasn't exactly the hour, but

we got through it, right? much more news ahead, what's being done to try to prevent those who subvert the world of 2020, after a very quick break. don't go anywhere. t go anywhere. ok y'all we got 10 orders coming in... big orders! starting a business is never easy, but starting it 8 months pregnant... that's a different story. i couldn't slow down. we were starting a business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs. the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same.

earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. -remember when i said we need to screen for colon cancer? -was that after i texted the age to screen was now 45? [both] because i said cologuard®! -hey there! -where did he come from? -yup, with me you can screen at home. just talk to your provider. [both] we'll screen with cologuard and do it my way. cologuard is a one-of-a-kind way to screen for colon cancer that's effective and non-invasive. it's for people 45+ at average risk, not high risk. false positive and negative results may occur. ask your provider for me, cologuard. >> tech: at safelite, we'll take care of fixing your windshield. false positive and negative but did you know we can take care of your insurance claim? that means less stress for you. >> woman: thanks. >> tech: my pleasure. have a good one. >> woman: you too. >> tech: schedule today at safelite.com. >> singers: ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ if you spit blood when you brush, it could be the start of a domino effect. new parodontax active gum repair breath freshener.

clinically proven to help reverse the four signs of early gum disease. a new toothpaste from parodontax, the gum experts.

♪♪ this is a fraud on the american public. this is an embarrassment to our country. we were getting ready to win this election, frankly, we did win this election. so, we'll be going to the u.s. supreme court. we want all voting to stop.

>> always a plan, election night, always a plan, the united states supreme court. he wasn't winning. he didn't win. his campaign told him so, and here we are, hi again, everybody, it's now 5:00 in new york. and i apologize that you had to watch that, should have come with a trigger warning, but it's really important now as we co-lean towards 2024, to a handful of states of pennsylvania and georgia called it project it, trump is out there calling himself a winner in the 2024 election. a president from that podium calling to stop counting votes in america. we all know, the rest is history. president joe biden was declared the winner in the country's, quote, most secure election in history by life long republican chris krebs three days later. dozens of lawsuits were filed anyway, by the losing ex-president. he didn't win any of them. and then he incited a deadly

insurrection against the united states government that endangered the life of his own vice president. who now, in a bully match between donald trump and joe biden all but officially set. what happens this time? well, that's up to us? are we co-leaning to a constitutional crisis, without a mike pence without a doj. and, quote, the man who would trample the country for his ego can be expected to use even more extreme means than he did the last time. he's trying to stay in a jail. a.d. stoddard predicts we will see a repeat of what happened last time, trump declaring victory before the votes are counted. but the unknown is how others react in 2024. she writes this, quote, republican-controlled legislature in several key

states, arizona, georgia, wisconsin could throw the election. if they wanted to do it in the safest way possible meaning in a way to guarantee they would succeed, legal scholar lauren lexi said, quote, they would do it immediately after the election, because the time to intervene would be so short. meantime, the other side is preparing for battle as well. quote, the biden campaign and the democratic national committee have been working on an upgraded plan of 2020. in anticipation of an every-nightmarish contingency. already drawing up the necessary legal filings. one of those fightings efforts by the former president and his allies is a familiar face to all of you voting rights attorney expert mark alias. quote, new republican vigilante republican groups are popping up around the country to lodge mass

challenges against unsuspecting voters, seeking to deprive them of the right to vote. and the soles to the rolls in michigan, those right-wing organizations are part of a web of anti-voting to make it hard to vote. voting rights attorney, the aforementioned mark alias is bark with us. former congresswoman, deborah embers is here. mike dowd is here. and with me at the table, former campaign manager for barack obama's 2012 re-election jim messina is here. mark, i'll start with you, i like to ask you this question because it helps to calibrate my angst. where are we? >> look, we're in a slog. there's not going to be a silver

bullet to the election. this is going to be a fight in state after state after state, in courthouse after courthouse after courthouse to ensure free and fair election before the election and make sure there's an accurate count before the election. look, the central point that you made, though, is one that people need to listen to which is republicans are worse today than they were four years ago. the republicans are worse than frankly, two years ago. if i told you four years ago, there was going to be an effort to challenge hundreds of thousands of voters to try to disenfranchise them. and that is going to emanate from the state of georgia and have sort of franchisees in other states, you know, ranging from pennsylvania to michigan to nevada, where you have these right-wing vigilante organizations challenging 10,000, 16,000, 20,000 voters at a pop to kick them off the rolls, you would have said that would be blockbuster news. well, that's going on every day now and it's not blockbuster

news. it's just built into things. but the fight continues, i see jim messina, my old friend, we just had a big victory in montana where we struck down four voter suppression laws in the state superior court. that's meaningful in the election for the election to take place there. >> you know, donna, i want to do this, i want to put the substance aside for just a nan osecond, the voter suppression law in georgia was so important that major league baseball, the least political of sort of the three big, between the nfl, the nba, certainly -- less political than the nba. they moved the all-star game out of georgia to colorado. because the voter suppression law was so offensive at the time. there are like hundreds of voter suppression laws that have now sort of raced through state legislatures. and they've have media coverage,

things worse than georgia did. i think the question for you, i remember when trump went to, i think north carolina, vote once, not twice. and bill barr went on cnn before the election and talked about -- before the election, laying the groundwork for claiming that something had been rigged. now, now, as a.d. stoddard writes, start this deal. it's just out in the open. it's how they are running for office with the presumption that they will have to steal something that they cannot win. and, again, it's not, you know -- nobody's hair is on fire, matt dowd but maybe mine and marc elias'. >> if i had hair it would be on fire. i think you're right, as you set this up to separate it in two things and i think marc would agree with this. there's two potential crises here. there's the before election night crisis.

and the post-election night crisis. i actually think states, specifically states are press prepared for the controversy post-election night controversy and what he might do. in places like michigan there's stronger institutions in place, in places like arizona, in places like pennsylvania that sort of institutional strength has been emboldened by the elections in 2022. and i think the court system has made enough decisions after 2020 that it sort of firmly put a flag in the ground about what you can and cannot do. but that's post-election night crisis. the preelection night crisis, you're exactly right. this used to be something subtle that people did. and even donald trump did it subtly. which is i only want my kind of voters to vote, he did it semi subtly, as subtly as donald trump can be. now, it's no longer a subtle thing. and now it's no longer tied to donald trump. i actually think, we've had this conversation before, the republicans realize that if

election day looks like america, they can't win elections anymore. nationally, or in many, many states. so their idea is, we can't allow election day to look like america. in all of its differences and all of its multiculturisms and all the of its multiethnicities. how did they prevent that? they prevented that by putting steps in place that makes election day not look like america. and they basically pointedly said that, that's what they want. >> you know, donna, i think there is a lot, when we try to tap into it, cover it here, exasperation, with the legal process, other than the case in new york likely to come up short in terms of adjudicating trump's crimes ahead of the election. the voter suppression laws have raced through state legislatures, i think there were 400 that raced through state legislatures. a few dozen passed. it's harder to vote now than it

was in 2022. the only people with agency if you don't like what's going on with the legal system, if you don't like what's going on in terms of access to the right to vote, the only people who still sort of hold all the cards are voters. the only thing to be done if you're pissed at merrick garland if he didn't jump on the criminality of donald trump after january 6th the only thing can to do, the only thing to do as a democratic coalition is to turn out to vote. and i wonder right now, as you sit here today, you assess those efforts? >> well, i actually do think there's been a lot of move on the part of nonprofit organizations and also the political party organizations to get more people registered. to encourage people to check their voter registration early so they can fix any problems. and to make sure that there are legal organizations that are in place to assist voters as they begin to cast their votes.

but i think it's a difficult landscape. and i mean, if you think about what has happened over -- even the last four years, donald trump continues to attack mail-in voting, while increasing numbers of people actually vote by mail. they have installed donald trump acolytes in local election boards, challenging -- ramp-up and challenging voters. so the landscape is really difficult for voters who just want to go and cast their vote. but they should do it anyway. and i think that, you know, there are operations, for example, going on in college campuses to make sure that students are registered to vote and in communities where voting is a lot more challenged. but we have to all be on guard. and it's preelection, it's election day. it's post-election. and we know from 2020, we know the election may not be decided on election night.

but there still will be votes that need to be counted. we have to be patient with that. but we also should not be afraid to do what is our constitutional right and exercising our right to vote, no matter how much donald trump tries to instill fear on the part of voters. and his acolytes continue to staff the polls and challenge voters as they are going into the polling place. >> and the other thing that hangs over this election that maybe we didn't see coming is violence, in terms of violence, paul pelosi, this is an election that will happen after the former speaker's husband was bludgeoned by a hammer by someone who believed the election conspiracies. yeah, in court documents that's what paul pelosi's attacker believed. this is an action that happened after police officers tried to communicate to the american people about the facts of january 6th because they sought to arrest them.

the officer of brian sicknick spoke out when trump went to that funeral expressing their sympathies for the fallen officer but saying trump does not stand with all law enforcement. he didn't stand with our family. this is the post presidential election post known about trump's appetite and the world he sees for political violence. how do you think that will affect voters who aren't paying attention to every twist and turn? >> well, if the biden campaign believes, and i think they're right, that issue of political violence moves voters. everyone gave him lots of grief before the 2022 election making that about democracy. giving him that famous democracy speech. turns out that was incredibly motivating for democratic voters to say, no, we're going to take this in our hands. these are real existential threats. as a former campaign manager, two things keep you up at night, one is voter suppression. marc was talking about challenging 10,000 votes, 20,000

votes, that's the entire margin. some of the laws you talked about passing seemed normal. you're like, oh, show your driver's license. a lot of people don't have driver's licenses. they just want to make it seem incredibly difficult vote so you won't vote. so as matt so well said, if the electorate looks like normal america, democrats are going to win. so they cannot allow that. and part of that threatening political violence because it makes people get nervous. it makes people feel antsy. and it causes people -- you know, the last card they have left is fear. and they're going to play that card every where they can on every single hand at the poker table. >> and marc elias, before i fill the cup with something other than water, how do you turn it around, potentially? >> look, it's not easy. but the fact is, we all need to try. you know, and you've made an important point and not made the important point. you know, we have better

secretaries of state in nevada, in michigan, in arizona than we had. we have -- we have stronger election officials and attorneys generals in a number of states. and frankly, we have battle-tested lawyers. you know, me and my team, we've been doing this a long time, but the experience of beating donald trump 60-plus times after 2020 taught us a few things about how to approach these things. heading into 2024. that's not just us, that's a lot of lawyers. so, i think we're going to be ready on the voter suppression front. i do want to echo something that jim said, which is political violence is something that is fundamentally different. because voters will show up to vote even if there's some suppression. if they know you're fighting for them. it's a whole other thing if they think they're going to wind up in the middle of a war zone. and what we saw on january 6 was

a clear warning shot by republicans, they will take it to the next level. they will assault police officers. they will break and enter into government buildings. i think that is something that local law enforcement and state and national enforcement have to really be prepared for. >> so, matthew dowd from the matthew strategist to the master story teller, what does the conversation sound like? >> well, i think this goes back to the conversations that we've had, i think, for the last five years, which is, this has to be related to people's lives, right? it's got to be taken out of the theoretical of democracy matters to the practical of why democracy matters. and what does a movement of donald trump's autocracy mean for the average person in their lives? what does it mean for minimum wage, what does it mean for women's health care, what does it mean for freedoms, what does it mean for a safe environment, kids growing up with guns and all of that. joe biden, i'll give him credit,

started that process in the state of the union address, but i think that's what the entire campaign is about. what does it mean if donald trump succeeds and we basically lose our democracy and power is ceded over to somebody's life? what does that mean to life? that clearly needs to be said and needs to be said over and over. because if we go to voters and say democracy is important, and isn't democracy a great thing? their eyes are going to cross, they'll say what does that mean for my kid's school? what does that mean for my daughter? it has to be related in practical terms to their life why a democracy matters. >> as you sat in the room, when you come up with this stuff in front of presidents and vice presidents, i'm going to ask you what is it, why does it matter? >> well, you have to take the major things you care about. which is if you want health care, you have to have a

democracy that gives you access to health care. if you want the freedom to practice your own religion, or the freedom over your body, you have to have democracy. because every place democracy is lost, you lose all of those fundamental things that you counted on in your life. and it's as clear as that. you have to say, if you want democracy -- if you lose democracy, you lose medicare, you lose social security. you lose access to health care. you lose minimum wage, because minimum wages are gone. that's actually been done through democracy in the course of this. you just have to tell people what they're going to lose in their daily life if democracy goes away. >> i hope i'm not stepping on any lines here on tv, because we have worked on republican campaigns we do have advanced skills in the dark arts. i want to keep this conversation going. because i think that's right. but i think that when you talk to people who are sort of sleepwalking toward november, and i'm thinking about the business community, they say dumb things like, ahh, i don't

know, regulations. regulations? you won't be talking about regulations if you're calling people in your industry in orban and asking how much time you have to move your workforce and money out of the country. if trump simply does what he says -- no surprises, right? no surprises, trump does what he says he's going to do, and models himself after viktor orban or vladimir putin, it sounds like a joke. we'll have that conversation, when we come back. needs to be for more than just work. like when it needs to be a big, soft shoulder to cry on. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry.

life, diabetes, there's no slowing down. each day is a unique blend of people to see and things to do. that's why you choose glucerna to help manage blood sugar response. uniquely designed with carbsteady. glucerna. bring on the day.

sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. we just need to advance the cure. the heart of st. jude is to take care of children with catastrophic diseases and to advance their cure rates. but we need to be able to do that for everyone. it's a bold initiative, to try and bump cure rates all around the world. but we should. it is our commitment. [music playing] you're probably not easily persuaded to switch

mobile providers for your business. but what if we told you it's possible that comcast business mobile can save you up to 75% a year on your wireless bill versus the big three carriers? you can get two unlimited lines for just $30 each a month. all on the most reliable 5g mobile network—nationwide. wireless that works for you. for a limited time, ask how to save up to $830 off an eligible 5g phone when you switch to comcast business mobile. don't wait! call, click or visit an xfinity store today. i can't believe we got all of you together at one time in one place.

we're going to get on your calendar every day. i want to come to you, jim, about permission structure. sarah longwell who is running a really organized focused data-driven republicans against trump effort, that has never happened before. useful got liz cheney, sort of a republican legacy name. saying she's going to do everything in her power to make the republican nominee isn't elected. she says she lives and dies for permission structure. how do you have the permission structures against trump, starting with that, how do you move the window over, to the window back to reality? how do you yank business leaders and employers out of their stupor? i mean, you could be a red cap wearing ceo, but if your daughter reading something from "the daily show" trump could target your stock. >> he's already doing it. he's going after ceos and people who disagree with him.

i'm a huge believer in permission structure, i'm married to a psychologist who taught me about this. the most effective ads i've seen in this cycle are ads with normal republican voters looking at the cameras saying look, i voted for him once, i can't do it again. and here's why. to matt's point earlier before the break, he said, you have to make it personal, you got to explain why things in their life got worse because of what donald trump did. because of what happened with the supreme court, we don't have access to abortion care. we have terrible laws all over the place. you got to make it personal and have permission structure with real live republicans and independents look at the camera and say, okay, you can join me. gone are the day of 30-second attack ads, i loved those, those are awesome, but they don't work anymore. the permission is you have to hear it from someone who looks like you and has your experience. >> donna, pushing it up the hill

but the place it's careening down the hill is women's health care. and you've got republican voters in kansas, republican voters in north carolina, republican voters in alabama saying no to donald trump's supreme court, to donald trump's supreme court taking away a right enjoyed by american women and families for 50 years. you don't have to be the story telling, every woman with a womb, every person who loves a woman, every person who has ever wanted a family and has had to turn to ivf. anyone who has ever desperately wanted a child they're pregnant with and have lost that child. here's a story of those and others being skeptic in hospital parking lots. everybody knows what republicans wants. everyone know what is trump did. trump turned this country back not 50 years, but 100. >> well, and there are a lot of

contrasts between joe biden and donald trump. this question of abortion and abortion rights. access to birth control, access to ivf, these are front and center contrasts that i think democrats and the president really have to embrace. they already are doing that, all across the country. you look at what has happened in florida. and there's going to be a ballot measure, on the ballot, in florida. i think that has turned that state upside down now, in terms of what the election results could be. i think it's important across the country, these suburban women voters are going to be key to this election. and the issue of abortion is front and center to them. and you may not have to tell the story to them, but you do have to use the story to continue to activate them, to make sure that they show up at the polls. and the people, as you say, who love -- who love them. people like my son who definitely gets abortion rights

as a voting issue. and so there's a lot of work to be done to get toward election day. but for some of these voters, we just have to give them the story that identifies them, and is a reason to vote. and i think it's possible to do that. >> matt dowd, as someone who looks at public opinion around big issues that are historically polarizing, american equality comes to mind. do you see the ship, or do you view the ship akin to that one, before this right was taken away, before dodds, 59% to 60% said abortion should be legal. those numbers are mid to high 70s now. it is something that is recognized as something that should not be criminalize. even between pro-life men and

women. have you seen that issue move that fast? >> no, the only one comparable is the gay marriage bill. a gay marriage thing that happened very quickly. i mean, we forget on that issue, you had hillary clinton and barack obama both opposed to it. both owe possessioned to gay marriage. and within three or four years that has fundamentally changed. this is, i think, one of the most interesting issues that sat there because roe v. wade was decided and people were having arguments about it. it basically was out of people assess conversations because they were, like, okay, that's over there on the supreme court. i could say i'm pro-life or pro-choice, but i'm not forced on this issue to have to stand up and do something about it. as soon as dodds happened, it surfaced on that issue in the way the whole irk of the aftermath of roe v. wade, it's now in your living room, you now have to make a decision where you are on this, because this is now taken away from you.

and that, if you go back on the history of this. i can't think of another issue that was settled and then sort of people just forgot about it. and then became unsettled that quickly. and then became this huge, huge strength for the democratic party, even among republicans and especially among independents and democrats in the course of this, that is new. and we have not seen that, we saw the gay marriage and gay rights coming. this one, because of the supreme court, one day, and the next day it changed, fundamentally changed the argument because it surfaced to people's living rooms. >> marc elias, your thoughts, everything is about democracy, i want to say stupid cardinalism. that sounds too craft in these times when everyone is on a knife's edge. everything ties back to one side wanting to take away. and the other side wanting to giver back, to -- when joe biden is running to be the president of all americans. donald trump literally in his

own words wants to prosecute and described as subhuman a lot of the others. where do we go from today? >> so, look, we have to keep in mind two things. the first is that republicans, their plan for november is to make it harder to vote and easier to cheat. the harder to vote is the voter suppression tactics. the voter intimidation. the efforts to prevent every eligible citizen from being able to cast their ballot and have it count. the easier to cheat is the stuff after the election, where they want to try to rig the rules through state legislatures and the like to try to undermine the will of the people. we have to be clear-eyed that that's their strategy. the second thing, though, nicolle, i'm speaking now to the business community and everyone else. the fight for democracy is a fight of our time. it isn't necessarily the fight we would have picked. it isn't necessarily what everyone would have hoped would

be top of mind and top of agenda. but our generation is going to be judged by what we did at this moment. when we were faced with a clear choice between democracy and autocracy. when we were facing down a wannabe dictator who was telling us out loud in clear and uncertain term what is he would do if he was put back in power. and the business leaders who care more about the short-term of bottom line will have to answer to long-term of history to their children and grandchildren, why at this moment in time, when they had so much power, and the ability to make so much difference, instead, they hit and they cowered. this is time forcivic courage in the boardroom, civic courage every single day to protect democracy. >> i'm going to end, marc elias,

donna edwards, matt dowd, jim messina, thank you so much. it's the oath you swear to to protect this country against all enemies foreign and domestic. so why did so many of them take part in the terrorist attack in the capitol january 6th that's a question asked by one democracy, we'll be joined by sebastian ryder and former congressman riggleman. don't go anywhere. i'm aline and i live in castle valley, california. my husband, barney, and i have been married for 32 years. i think the most important thing in life is to stay healthy. i noticed i was having some memory losses. i discovered prevagen. since i've been on prevagen, i've noticed more clarity, more sharpness.

the recall mechanism is a lot more concise. i've been taking prevagen for almost 10 years. it's wonderful. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. i have active psoriatic arthritis. but with skyrizi to treat my skin and joints, count me in. along with clearer skin, skyrizi helps me move with less joint pain, stiffness, swelling, and fatigue. and is just 4 doses a year, after 2 starter doses. serious allergic reactions and an increased risk of infections or a lower ability to fight them may occur. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine, or plan to. there's nothing like clearer skin and better movement. and that means everything! ask your doctor about skyrizi today. learn how abbvie could help you save.

a brand-new documentary takes a disturbing but is vitally important deep dive into the radicalization being recruited by violent extremist groups to take a new oath, alarmingly identical to the one they once swore to the united states constitution. the film is called "against all enemies" and it also serve as a warning that january 6 might just have been a preview how willing some of these veterans are to use their military training against the democracy they once promised to protect. let's watch. >> three, two, one -- >> there are places in our military where we are trained to start fuelling services. >> [ bleep ] they've been doing the whole career. now here in the united states. >> anybody who says this can't happen in a worse way, either their ignorant or they're part of the problem. >> today, domestic terrorism is

a great threat facing the united states. >> the cia has this tool where they measure levels of insurgency, if you justify it any less, we're in insurgency. >> take it! >> how did i end up on one side of that door. and a fellow with arms ended up on the other side of that door? >> the last comment was someone you might recognize, congressman jason crowe, in the new documentary, against all enemies, former congressman denver riggleman of virginia who is the author of "the breach: the untold story of january 6". he's the main voice in the documentary. with me at the table, award winning author, and contributinget tour to "vanity fair." this is something we've been trying to cover, the hardwired

reverence for the men and women who served. from january 6, there was an extremism problem in corners of the military. >> to be year, i was in the part of the military, the vast majority of combat veterans had nothing do do with january 6th and never would. one of the interesting things about these guys there are some people in this movement tour straight-up special forces, very, very dangerous. but don't be fooled by the tactical pants and the gear. >> like you can get them anywhere? >> exactly. most of the people, men in that footage that sort of look military, i would say most of them were not actually in combat. they might have been in uniform, but not in combat. i think that's actually what makes them dangerous. i think in some ways they're kind of playing soldier and see

themselves as heros in a kind of false effort to supposedly restore democracy. when in fact what they are enjoying right now is democracy and peaceful transfer of power. so, it's in a sort of rather pathetic way the proclaimed soldier that in my mind makes them particularly dangerous. >> did you uncover any better understanding as to how they ended up pointing guns at their former veterans, people like jason crowell? >> you know, i think most of them didn't think it through very far. i think they pictured a rather heroic role for them. they believed the lies coming from donald trump. you know, if you truly thought that the democracy had been stolen -- if you believed the president. that it had been stolen and you have a certain kind of psych disorder that predisposes you

toward picturing yourself this way, i could see how you might get yourself in that place. but you have to make a lot of bad choices to get there. and right now, i think, so many of them having been prosecuted have said it was the worst -- it was the biggest mistake of my life. it was the worst decision. i will regret this forever. and, you know, i think you have to -- and those people should be prosecuted. and should do prison time, if that's what the courts decide. but that regret should be listened to as well. i hope other people, other citizens, other veterans who might be thinking thoughts like this, i hope they listen to those statements. >> denver, it's great to have you back on the program. one of the -- you know, enduring questions that i have is how does this happen for three hours? you know, sargent gonell described it as the worst combat, and he's a veteran himself, that he ever engaged in. and how did the insurrectionists, including the

former military, engage in three hours of hand-to-hand combat against cops? >> you know, my goodness, first of all, it's such an honor to do anything connected with sebastian. it was just incredible to be asked to do this. i'm a military veteran, air force officer, former enlisted. and to watch that three hours, you know i saw the data. we have 187 minutes, seven hours, no contact. i think what you had there, you had individuals that thought they were military. but they had individuals military trained leading them. seeing the proud boys and oath keepers, i saw the data for hundreds of these individuals and so many were military. i think the biggest fear for me, they engaged in violence or they believed they've been trained or have a bigger calling. they have this duality, people like me, who have taken the oath to protect against all enemies foreign and domestic, to try

against others who have taken the same mode who have bought into conspiracies and yet you attack the capitol based on fantasy. so you have military members who really believed -- maybe they thought "lord of the rings" bass a documentary. they believe that satellites change votes, believed these things but actually trained. people made fun of them. sebastian made an incredible point, about the mill team 6 or the gravy s.e.a.l.s, right. that players can still pull a trigger. they believe they're an actor in their own movie. that's what happens with conspiracy theoryists, people like me, we've been in awful times in those zones, we see these people and we see them as a threat that's why this movie hit southeast hard. >> denver, we've been talking to a lot of people working in sort of the political trenches about creating permission structures

for people who once supported trump to make a different choice in november. i mean, what would be the effective permission structures? forget about voting for a democratic candidate, but for the deradicalization? >> my goodness, what scares me, nicolle, is that if people still supporting trump, since 2016, eight years later, after january 6, 3 1/2 years ago later. i don't know there's any way to actually reach the majority of those individuals. sebastian said about someone being apologetic, that's true, but my guess is they're still going to vote for trump. that's what gets me. i'm in the 5th district of virginia. i'm in a very rural district, all of those individuals say that january 6 was just a terrorist visit and the deep state of the globalists did overturn the election. these individuals say, guess what, denver, sorry to disagree, but i'm taken an oath to protect enemies, foreign and domestic. so you have this incredible

duality, this incredible conflict from veterans trying to stop it and veterans who think it's their duty to march to this trump drummer. i'd like to deprogram, debunk, do all of that, but it really is, right now, we need the american public to be educated. again, i'm not trying to flatter sebastian, but the ability to think on this new to educate the public about military veterans who have taken the step into hysteria hysteria, we need the education first and educate them and bring them back to sanity. >> i need to show the viewers some more of this. i have to sneak in a quick break. we'll do that on the other side.

ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. brett: once we got the first initial hit, it was just straight tears, sickness in your stomach, just don't want to get up out of bed. joe: there's always that saying, well, you've got to look on the bright side of things. tell me what the bright side of childhood cancer is. lakesha: it's a long road. it's hard. but saint jude has gotten us through it. narrator: saint jude children's research hospital works day after day to find cures and save the lives of children with cancer and other life-threatening diseases. thanks to generous donors like you, families never

receive a bill from saint jude for treatment, travel, housing, or food, so they can focus on helping their child live. ashley: without all of those donations, saint jude would not be able to do all of the exceptional work that they do. narrator: for just $19 a month, you'll help us continue the life-saving research and treatment these kids need. tiffany: no matter if it's a big business or just the grandmother that donates once a month, they are changing people's lives. and that's a big deal. narrator: join with your debit or credit card right now, and we'll send you this saint jude t-shirt that you can proudly wear to show your support. nicole: our family is forever grateful for donations big and small because it's completely changed our lives and it's given us a second chance. elizabeth stewart: saint jude's not going to stop until every single kid gets that chance to walk out of the doors of this hospital cancer-free. narrator: please, don't wait. call, go online, or scan the qr code below right now.

[♪ music playing ♪] more guys up here. special forces. another one. >> i'm not surprised that extremist organizations try to recruit veterans for the credible that will bring. but also for the commitment. and that commitment takes a lot of forms. these veterans are people in our society who in many ways who have said i will do whatever is necessary to preserve what i believe in, up to and including violence. >> they've been doing the whole career. now doing here in the united states. it's a weird feeling. >> the group was the second group to enter afghanistan. >> so enticing. get to fight again, you know. you're trained in certain things. you know, you can see the battlefield better.

if you believe the country is under attack, you have a certain set of skills that maybe you were trained with that you can help the group around you, right? you're a force multiplier. >> [ bleep ]. >> hey, guys, everybody spread out. get eyes open. get a good perimeter. >> right there, on fire, we can shoot at that. >> hopefully they light [ bleep ] up. >> there's another clip from the new documentary "against all enemies." we're back with denver riggleman and sebastian junger. sebastian, tell what's happening in that clip. >> yes, the menu see on the rooftop, they believe they're providing security for a volatile situation. and rhodes is leading them. and, again, don't be fooled by the eye patch and the beard. rhodes was not in combat. he did not lose his eye in

combat. this is performance, right? i mean, this is a sort of, like, demonstration of something that actually isn't real. but they're playing these roles -- they're sort of playing soldier again. except, they're doing it in a situation where our democracy at stake. like the democracy. >> literally. >> literally, the democracy is at stake. and they're a threat to it, my father grew up in spain. and he and his family fled in 1936, when he came in, he was a fascist. the way he took over, the conservatives in spain lost the said that proves it was stolen, the fact that the conservatives lost, proves it was stolen. then he summoned the disgruntled veterans from a failed 20-year war in morocco and summoned them and said, your nation needs you at home now. we have to restore democracy to spain. except the generals, unlike

america, the generals went with franco. they never would in this country. >> denver, the generals have the most harrowing tales, many won't speak out publicly. general kelly described donald trump as the most damaged human being he ever met. general mattis is the only general before january 6th to quit for cause. what in your view could they do to tell the country what they saw in donald trump? chairman milley stood on the line when stephen miller wanted to invoke the insurrection act. they probably saw the most graphic examples of what this document covers and what sebastian is talking about. >> when i see the generals, they're caught between service to their country and to the president as commander-in-chief, and their desire or need to speak out based on the danger they see in civilian leadership.

i can't imagine the tension. nicole, i think kelly understated it. i think trump -- a lot of people call him stupid or ignorant. i think the one thing we can't discount is that he has native cunning: i think that's something all of us have to be aware of. flag officers by general flynn or general mcnerney that have taken the mantle of crazy and using flag officer status. what people don't understand, nicolle, when you get out of the military, sometimes you carry the rank with retired or separated members, like general flynn, they hold a high regard for people, they say, oh, that's general flynn. that's what's scary. generals in the administration needed to speak out and they tried to. and sometimes maybe too late based on that conflict. then you have other flag officers like general flynn who

i believe betrayed their uniform, betrayed the constitution, betrayed the trust of those who followed them. i'll put that in air quotes. again, i'm disgusted by it. at some point us other military veterans with love, almost compassionate confrontation, we need to go to those individuals and say people like mike flynn they're a joke. they're trying to direct you as cause players to do things you wouldn't ordinarily do, so stop the crap. people like general flynn i think are really dangerous. people like me who actually took the oath despise it. >> compassionate confrontation is something i am going to borrow. i love that. sebastian and denver, we could have talked the whole hour. the document is must-see "against all enemies" is streaming on apple tv. go watch it. quick break for us. we'll be right back. quick break for us we'll be right back.

[shaking] (♪♪) (♪♪) oh no. [scratching] with chewy, get flea meds delivered before the itching begins. (♪♪) or after, but before is definitely better. good job. save 20% on your first pharmacy order and get it delivered right on time.

( ♪♪ ) my name is jaxon, and i have spastic cerebral palsy. it's a mouthful. one of the harder things is the little things that i need help with: getting dressed, brushing your teeth, being able to go out with your friends by yourself. those are hard because you don't want help, but you need it. children like jaxon need continued support for the rest of their lives. whoa, whoa, whoa. and you can help. please join easterseals right now, with your monthly gift. i'm almost there. the kids that you are helping, their goal is to be as independent as they can. these therapies help my son to achieve that goal.

easterseals offers important disability and community services that can change a life forever. please, go online, call or scan the qr code right now with your gift of just $19 a month. it really does make a difference. strengthening with easterseals helped me realize i can get through hard things. don't give up. keep trying. even better! please visit helpeasterseals.com, call or scan the qr code on your screen with your gift of $19 a month and we'll send you this t-shirt as a thank you. mother: your help and your support, the need for it is endless. jaxon: thank you, 'cause there's a lot of people with disabilities out there. people like me. please join easterseals with your monthly gift right now.

( ♪♪ ) oefted city council member judd blevins over ties to white nationalist groups in a recall group by a 20-point margins. activists learned he marched along neo-nazis in charlottesville in 2017 and led an oklahoma chapter of a white nationalist group. he denied he had ever been a white supremacist. he'll be replaced by long time republican cheryl patterson with one of the democratic leaders of the grassroots campaign saying this, quote, we won, blevins lost. hate lost. we will be right back. te lost. we will be right back.

oooh! i can't wait for this family getaway! shingles doesn't care. shingles is a painful, blistering rash that can last for weeks. ahhh, there's nothing like a day out with friends. that's nice, but shingles doesn't care! 99% of adults 50 years or older already have the virus that causes shingles inside them, and it can reactivate at any time. a perfect day for a family outing! guess what? shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. only shingrix is proven over 90% effective. shingrix is a vaccine used to prevent shingles in adults 50 years and older. shingrix does not protect everyone and is not for those with severe allergic reactions to its ingredients or to a previous dose. an increased risk of guillain-barré syndrome

was observed after getting shingrix. fainting can also happen. the most common side effects are pain, redness, and swelling at the injection site, muscle pain, tiredness, headache, shivering, fever, and upset stomach. shingles doesn't care. but shingrix protects. ask your doctor or pharmacist about shingrix today. sara federico: at st. jude, we don't care who cures cancer. we just need to advance the cure. it's a bold initiative to try and bump cure rates all around the world, but we should. it is our commitment. we need to do this. your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire

her uncle's unhappy. matchin i'm sensing anription. underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. thank you so much for being here and letting us into your homes during these truly extraordinary times. we are