frankly, it's about taking away freedoms and rights, and that's a conversation about democracy. >> it's up to the campaign also to drive this contrast. there have been a lot of focus groups where you ask swing voters and they can't bring themselves to believe that donald trump legitimately cares about this issue personally. on the other hand, he literally built the supreme court. those justices were all pivotal to that. >> i'm betting there's going to be some ad money spent on that one. >> guarantee it. >> thank you so much, excellent report, people should read it, i'll tweet so people see it as well. that does it for me tonight, but i'll be back as my usual on sundays, and on monday shows, don't worry, chris hayes returns from time off on tuesday, after taking a break well-deserved. alex wagner tonight starts right now. >> your back, but we like the friday jen. we love, a periodic parachuting in a jen psaki on fridays,

there's nothing to be mad about. >> every now and then. >> keep them wanting just a little bit more. have a great weekend. >> that's what chris is doing right now, exactly. have a great show. >> okay. the year donald trump left office, 2021, deutsche bank commissioned a highly confidential appraisal of one of his properties, the trump national golf club in doral, florida. thanks to the new york attorney general for civil fraud lawsuit, that highly confidential document is now public. the findings in it were not great for donald trump. the trump brand has negatively impacted property performance, due to multiple when he was running for and after he became president. mr. trump is a polarizing figure who ignites strong feelings for both supporters and supporters of his political opponents. this resulted in many groups

canceling events of the property, and has kept the resort from achieving results commensurate with the facility. so the trump brand was toxic to have the country, and therefore doral golf course was in trouble. the ex-president needed a way to make his golf course profitable. and he found it with the help of an old friend. >> describe doral in one word. >> brutal. >> tough. >> challenging. >> tricky. >> treacherous. >> monster. >> when you win at the row, you earn it and it feels good. >> that was the ad for the controversial liv golf tournament, a new league funded by the government of saudi arabia. liv stands for the liv, the total number of holes played at the tournament, for some reason they keep calling it liv. i don't know. this week professional golfers and fans are flocking to trump's doral golf course thanks to the general support of the saudi regime.

the public is totally in the dark about how much money trump and his businesses are getting from a foreign government that murdered an american journalist named jamal kashoggi on president trump swatch. but the liv golf tournament is one of the ways that saudi arabia is lining the pockets of donald trump. and his family. remember that right after trump left office the saudi's gave an unprecedented $2 billion to the investment firm of trump's son- in-law, jared kushner. this is all part of the incredibly opaque web of financial arrangements that trump and his family have entered into, arrangements that have significant implications for the country, as trump tries to pay off his numerous legal debts while running for president. and trump may need that for in cash more than ever. one of the ways trump was expected to pay for his mounting legal bills was through his twitter knockoff, truth social. last month, trump took that company public and thanks to investments from trump's loyal

supporters, the value of his shares rose to more than $4 billion, despite the fact that truth social is losing money and has fewer users than any social media company that has ever gone public before. since then, trump's stock has literally been in free fall. the company has lost more than $2 billion of value since the first day of trading. the lost 10% of its value today, it's worst day of trading yet, which may not be a great sign for a stock that has been shorted by a lot of its major investors. but that's not the only problem with trump's media company. trump launched truth social with the help of two former apprentice contestant who became his business partners. those two former apprentice contestants have now sued trump, alleging trump was trying to cheat them out of their share of the profits from truth social. on april 15th, trump will have to sit for a deposition in the case brought by those x

business partners. which is notable not just because the notoriously untruthful president will once again have to give testimony under oath, it's also notable because april 15th is the scheduled start date for trump's criminal hush money trial here in manhattan. happy tax day! trump has been doing everything he can to try and stop that trial in its tracks. today trump asked the judge overseeing that case, judge juan mershon, to recuse himself, arguing he can't get a fair trial because the judges daughter, who has worked with democratic candidates in the past. this is the second time trump has made this argument. it did not work last time, and this trial does not appear to be slowing down. today cbs news reports that the more than 500 new yorkers have already been sent notices to appear as potential jurors in this historic trial. which means we are now just 10

days away from donald trump, a former american president, actually standing trial as a criminal defendant for the very first time. joining me now, kristi greenberg, a former federal prosecutor and chief of the criminal division for the southern district of new york. kristi, thanks for joining me. every day it's like i get a mini lesson, going to have a law degree by 2027. i get a small lesson in how it works. but the jury selection process, i think there's a lot about of the people don't know, and this one in particular is going to be historic. big picture, how difficult is it going to be to select a jury in manhattan that doesn't know that much about what trump has been up to? >> it's fine if the jury knows what he's been up to. you'd have to be living under a rock not to know that he's running, and that he has called various cases against him a

witch-hunt, but the question really, for both sides, is can they put whatever opinions they have about donald trump, the candidate, or what they've heard about this case in the press, can they put that aside and evaluate the instructions of the law and the evidence they are going to hear at the trial? can they put aside what their preconceived notions are and to be impartial? that's the question. you can expect in a case like this, and even more detailed questioning of these potential jurors. a lot about their backgrounds, a lot about what have you heard, have you heard trump's statements blasting alvin bragg and calling him an animal and these terrible things, what you think about that? >> do you read the newspaper? >> where do you get your news from? how has it affected your opinions? can you put opinions that you have aside and listen to the evidence? those are the kinds of questions that both sides will be asking. >> cbs news reports that they will be using jury specialists to find jurors. for people who don't know what a jury specialist is, what do they do exactly?

>> they're basically going to stock jurors and learn everything they can about them. learn their backgrounds, what have they been doing on social media, do they have opinions on politics, on this president, on these cases that they have expressed at any point. and what are their backgrounds, certain backgrounds, individuals, whether people have families or established employment, there are certain kinds of jurors that you are going to look for is a prosecutor that you may want to sit. jurors that have sat before, and they haven't been able to reach a verdict on the case, that's a red flag. those who don't trust the government, and believe a lot of this information, one of the questions that the prosecutors ask is, do you believe the election was stolen? hugely important question. if you believe that then you are someone who is unlikely to buy much of what the prosecution is going to be arguing.

these jury specialists, in the courtroom, as the jurors are being called, there was a film in 2003 based on a john grisham book called runaway jury, and this is a highly dramatized depiction of what these jury specialist do, can we please roll the tape? >> dolores kennelly, 46 years of age, unmarried occupational therapist. devout cat lover. >> look at the way she turns away from the man walking. >> her husband is a baptist minister. she's a card-carrying member of the sierra club and registered democrat. >> i hate baptists almost as much as i hate democrats. >> look at the way she turns away from the man walking. that kind of granularity seems for hollywood, but, obviously if you believe the 2020 election was stolen, that's a tell, right? that's a controversial question to ask, but, i would imagine

that the vetting process is similar to the targeted campaign outreach that they make to voters like, certain habits, reading habits, job industries are going to be tells for certain political proclivities, right? >> and are you affiliated with certain associations, and that doesn't mean necessarily are you a democrat or republican? even how you voted, that's pretty much off-limits, or should be, though trump team wants those questions. what kind of associations are you affiliated with, where do you get your news from? more importantly, are you somebody who's going to be more susceptible to conspiracy theories, to not buying what the government is arguing, those are the kinds of things that consultants looking at your background can get a pretty good sense of >> they don't want stealth jurors, there are a lot of people out there on the left and on the right who know the historical import of this, and want to be jurors and could theoretically mask themselves as impartial or unknowing

potential candidates for the jury. >> and that is what is going to keep d.a. bragg up at night. on most cases, you have people who are trying to find any excuse not to sit on the jury, they are really doing their best, and you know those people, any question their hand is up, they got something to say, they need a sidebar with the judge. here, that's going to be less of the issue because it is such a historic case. is the first criminal trial involving a president, and you can see people, even if they think the answer is yes, the election was stolen, i know why they're asking that and i want to be seated, so i'm not going to tell you what i really think. that's were jury consultants really will be important. >> all of his computer screens. but, there's a threat that judge merchan has put out there, in the context of expanding this gag order to include sean's family members in the context of making these very articulate arguments for

what donald trump is doing to the rule of law and why he needs to be gagged, for lack of a better term, he's also said that if trump continues to mouth off, if he continues to destroy the integrity or attempt to destroy the integrity of those involved in this prosecution, he will lose access to the jurors names. that means, can you clarify what that means and the significance of that? >> this is the real sanction out of that gag order. this is the real thing that trump and his lawyers looked at and said, oh, maybe we have to shut him up and make sure that he complies with this. which is why i think you're seeing the very attacks on the judges daughter now being taken up by his lawyers as an end run around that gag order. this sanction is important, because the prosecutors, they would have access to the jury's name. they would get to do all that background research on these jurors, whereas trump and his team would not know their names, they would only know the

answers to the questions. they wouldn't be able to fact check by doing the research unknowing, let's look at their social media, let's do all of that research. they wouldn't have the names to be able to do that. >> that's a big deal, right? >> from courtroom dramas, starring gene hackman, not gene wilder, i do know, all of us have seen the way in which the prosecution and the defense both create profiles in their minds as they're developing arguments and thinking about what they're going to say, the men and women that they're talking to. if you don't know other than the responses to the questions, that means you're fighting with one hand tied behind your back. >> it would be a huge disadvantage. given that, you're going to see at least donald trump try to stay just within the boundaries of that gag order. he is pushing the limits even by reposting what other people are posting. >> that's the climate, the relationship that this defense already has with this judge seems so poisoned that i would imagine, it's not an obvious, it's not the most subtle thing

to say that seems problematic. it seems like a big, big deal that they have this hugely antagonistic relationship with the judge that's presiding over this case. >> they do, and in most cases you wouldn't see a criminal defendant try to antagonize the judge who, if he's convicted will end up sentencing him. that's not a dynamic you typically see. maybe after the conviction you have some words or after a sentencing and you want to appeal, but not before. again, he's trying to do a number of things, he wants to delay the trial, he wants to distract from his conduct so everybody is just focused on these attacks and these from those filings, not talking about what he did. and mass disruption, the third aspect of what he's trying to do, intimidate jurors, intimidate witnesses, get people to not show up or not say things that will be bad to him. he's really trying to de- legitimize the entire process and the judge has done a good

job of trying to stay the course, and really not get emotional, and just try to give rulings that are fair. >> in the name of justice. thank you for watching old john grisham clips with me on this friday night. i appreciate your time and expertise on this topic. we have a lot more to get to this evening, including the latest on two of trump's loyal put soldiers in congress, receiving subpoenas in arizona's investigation into the sprawling 2020 fake electors plot. first, rfk junior today tried to clarify whether he thinks january 6th was a big deal. and he dug himself may be a little bit deeper. the new york times michelle goldberg joins me right here in studio to discuss, right after ght the break.

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the third-party group no labels this week announced it will not run a candidate in the 2024 election. ceo nancy jacobson explained the group couldn't find anyone willing to run who had a credible path to winning the white house. this is after no labels tried and failed to recruit former new york new hampshire governor chris sununu and senator joe manchin of west virginia.

with the potential threat from no labels now neutralized, the biggest potential spoiler in the 2024 presidential race is robert kennedy junior. the candidate who has been garnering almost 10% support in the latest national polls. given his impact, kennedy is increasingly coming under scrutiny. which so far does not seem to be helping his campaign. this week his campaign sent out around the fundraising emails that called january 6th rioters activists. this then forced kennedy to release a statement today clarifying his stance on the capital right, which was no less alarming. in a statement, kennedy writes that reasonable people, including trump opponents, tell me there is little evidence of a true insurrection. kennedy then had to reject part of the statement because the original version had said falsely that the protesters had no weapons. which was false. that part was later redacted and amended to read several rioters have been convicted of carrying firearms into the capital building. joining me now is michelle

goldberg, new york times columnist. she's been busy covering rfk junior and has a new very illuminating piece in the new york times called terrified parents, new age health nuts, maga exiles, meet the rfk junior faithful. i found this very eye-opening. a delicious read as well. you talk about the way in which he's seen as a spoiler for biden. but the people in the crowd at the rfk event that you went to, had a pretty trump cast. talk more about the substantiative person, campaign hires and positions he's taken right now that smack more of trumpism. >> his campaign itself is increasingly trump e. before he seemed to straddle this left right eccentric space, but he's increasingly, for example on issues that the left cares about like israel palestine, he's more hawkish on israel

then biden is. he has a reputation as an environmentalist and he's concerned about pollution, but when you actually look at his campaign, what he says is that environmental regulation is part of the same plot for totalitarian control as covid measures. he's very libertarian, he says he wants free-market solutions. so there's not a lot in this campaign for left-wing people who are disillusioned with joe biden. some of them are going to vote for him anyway because there's a certain sort of person who is just antiestablishment, who wants to vote for the anti- system candidate, and he's very much that. it's why there was some interesting people have interesting voting histories. one person in my piece voted for jill stein in 2016, he had voted for andrew yang in the primary in 2020 when andrew yang didn't win, he voted for donald trump. the kind of ideology was all

over the place, but definitely more people who had either voted for trump, or would vote for trump if kennedy wasn't on the ballot than people who were thinking about voting for biden. >> what's great is you really get at the strange brew of trumpism, as that part of the far right meets another part of the far left. a la read an excerpt. there's something distinctly trumpy in kennedy's campaign mix of new age individualism, social media fueled paranoia, and intense aching nostalgia for the optimistic america of the early 1960s. i think the right is understanding this, the potent room, there. sean hannity has been taking time out of his very important programming to talk about robert f kennedy in unfavorable terms. this is what he said last night. >> on the issue of kennedy, he is what he is. he's at about radical environmentalists who frequently was heaping praise on bernie sanders and his radical green new deal. here's another proposal that bleeding heart liberals will find very tempting.

entity wants to slash the u.s. military budget, and use the money for socialized healthcare. >> do you think kennedy's latest kerfuffle, which is being euphemistic, being a true insurrection or not, does that smack to you of political opportunism and a way to curry favor with trump supporters? or do you think that is genuine skepticism? >> i think that he genuinely, basically, is so paranoid about the federal government that he will take the side of whoever he feels like it is against the federal government. he also has a lot of trump people around him. i think it bears repeating that his communication, his head of communication, was in washington on january 6th, speaking at the maga freedom rally. there are a lot of very right wing people around him. at one point his campaign was being run by this eccentric

left-wing congressman, but he's gone under dubious, there's controversy about why he left, but he's hinted at disagreements over israel and gaza. there's a lot of right-wing people around kennedy, so it's possible that he just has a lot of genuinely right-wing views, and there's this other space in the alternative health world, where right and left intersect, but increasingly, >> the anti-vax stuff, the anti- pharma, new age holistic medicine. >> which can be very left coded, and always had a libertarian individualistic strain to it, and there was always some right-wing people who were anti-vax, obsessed with natural living, but the center of gravity in that world has moved right over the course of the pandemic, and opposition to vaccines and lockdowns, and meanwhile the right it self, the esoteric edges of the right, has become increasingly

obsessed with healthy living, the curative powers of sunlight and the like. and i'm all for sunlight. >> morning sunlight in the words of his vice presidential nominee. i do want to talk, this is not to dismiss the threat that he could potentially pose to biden, and you nail it in the piece when you're quoting sarah longwell who has been such a genius about so much campaign electoral related dynamics. my experience over the years in the focus group, she says, is when trump is top of mind for people, people who dislike both him, as in trump, and biden and up disliking trump more. kennedy, she said, could give people who might otherwise reluctantly vote for joe biden an offramp for making a dispiriting decision. >> and so far that's been the assumption among democrats and republicans. that the biggest donor to trump's super pack is also the biggest donor to the main pro kennedy super pack, and he's

doing that because he assumes that kennedy is going to be a spoiler for trump. meanwhile the dnc has been very focused on kennedy, assuming he'll be a spoiler. kennedy himself has said that he thinks biden is more of a threat to democracy than trump. the other side of that is, who is attracted to that? who is attracted to that message? is not someone for whom biden is their second choice. >> this is the strange mechanics of the robert f kennedy campaign, and candidacy, and i think you really add a lot to our understanding of it. in this great piece in the new york times coming out this week. it's great to see you, thanks for your time tonight. we have more ahead this evening, including right-wing outrage theater revealed, live, in prime time on fox news. first, the reporting on arizona's investigation into the 2020 they collector plot, shows that it is extending all the way into the halls of congress. that is coming up, next. up, ne. you found it.

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and fake elector's is still alive. in nevada a grand jury has indicted six fake electors, michigan attorney general has filed charges against 16 fake electors, and now political reports arizona attorney general chris mays appears close to announcing indictments in the investigation in her state. while cheney reports that mays has subpoenaed two arizona republican congressman, andy biggs and paul goes-r, two of trump's most loyal congressional allies, to testify before a grand jury. both of those men attended a strategy meeting at the white house prior to january 6th, to discuss how vice president mike pence could block the certification of election results. both biggs and goes-r voted to overturn the 2020 election results after the attack on the capital. joining me now is kyle chaney, senior legal affairs reporter at politico. thank you for being here. i feel like this is an interesting turn of events.

give me your expectation about biggs and goes-r cooperating with this subpoena. could you tell us about what you know about the level of seriousness with which the ag and arizona may be pursuing them? >> sure. in the big picture sense, it would not shock me if we saw charges in this investigation as early as next week. we understand it's fairly imminent. this is a sleeper case in that we don't really know, is the ag purely focused on the false electors themselves, or is she looking at a level or two beyond them? stretching into the trump white house as we see these members of congress who, yes, they played a role in what happened in arizona, but they're meeting with donald trump, people in the national scope of this. we don't quite know what she viewed as well as how wide her aperture is and whether she used people like that as targets or not, and whether people like biggs and gosar

would comply with the subpoena like that, they have legal options to fight that, and we don't know, we don't have insight into whether they're employing those. >> i would say one of the enduring mysteries of the january 6th insurrection was how come nobody is following the breadcrumbs all the way to u.s. congress. the president, former president, there's a federal criminal case against him, the middlemen, congressman, biggs and gosar, who apparently were involved in some of the planning of all of this, have yet to face any serious scrutiny. i'm old enough to remember, kyle, when cassidy hutchison testified to the committee, and said that these guys wanted pardons. let's play that sound. >> are you aware [ inaudible ] >> mr. brooks, i know both have

advocated for there to be a pardon for members of that meeting. not all of them, but several of them did. >> mr. biggs did. mr. talked about congressional pardons, for the update, on members of congress. he asked for a pardon, too. >> the list keeps going on. matt gaetz, mo brooks, andy biggs, jim jordan, scott perry. yet none of these guys has really faced accountability as yet, or questions from law enforcement officials. give me a sense of the complications of potentially prosecuting or charging a member of congress, as you see

it. >> there are a few challenges with that, you know that scott perry had his phone seized by federal investigators as part of a look at donald trump, and that broader plot, he was a key player in the effort by donald trump to deploy the justice department to do what he did in 2020. now, he wasn't charged with that and we don't know where that path led the doj, but it's hard to penetrate congress. they have protection in the constitution, almost full immunity from being over there official business. the january 6th session of congress, even though it's about an election as part of congress official business. they are casting votes to certify an election. getting inside that in compelling people to talk, or to get a look at what they were doing and talking about, it's very difficult for investigators because of the protections built into the constitution about it. >> i will say, there was back

and forth about whether lindsey graham would have to testify. he invoked speech and debate, he did in the fulton county case, i wonder if you think the tide is turning on that given the egregious nature of what had transpired on january 6th, the testified role of the some of these individuals played in it, and the fact that they asked for pardons, after-the- fact suggesting, a cognizance of guilt. do you think that the dynamic is changing in terms of how immune these guys are, the blanket immunity it seems they might have had in years past. spinning lindsey graham is a great example. under very strict conditions they said, you can only ask him about things that had nothing to do with his work as the judiciary committee chairman or as a senator. ask him about his contact with the trump campaign, that's not official business. you could get a something like that, for gosar or biggs but it takes a lot of work in the courts. lindsey graham went to the supreme court for that, it's an

onerous thing for a prosecutor to do. >> it's a long road, a winding road, but maybe a road worth walking down in the name of protecting democracy. just putting it out there. kyle chaney, great with such bombshell and a central reporting, thanks for your time tonight. >> thank you, alex. are you old enough to remember when conservatives hated bud light? it was last year. we will check out the latest act in conservative outrage theater, coming up next. next. everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. ♪♪ imagine a future where plastic is not wasted... but instead remade over and over...

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let me say something to all you as clear and concise as possible. >> that was kid rock, one year and two days ago shooting at cans of bud light with an automatic rifle to show his discussed that the company had sent a transit social media influencer named dylan mulvaney promotional material for an instagram add. the entire conservative world went haywire. after that. kid rock really led the charge in calling for a boycott of bud light. that was literally almost exactly a year ago. and then this was kid rock last night, on fox. >> i see you're wearing, is that a budweiser hat? it was a year ago that you famously posted that video, you

were shooting some bud light cans. after the dylan mulvaney controversy. you've lightened up on bud light? >> this is a cool hat. i don't know. we've got, i didn't know what hat i was wearing. >> i didn't know what had i was wearing. it's a cool hat. now, none of the performed outrage was ever actually about bud light. despite calling for a boycott, the bar kid rock owned still served bud light. kid rock himself was caught drinking bud light just months after shooting cases of it with an assault rifle. all of this outrage theater around dylan mulvaney and bud light was just that. theater. it was about how politically potent rage itself is, but it actually did real damage. dylan mulvaney has been

stocked. she has gotten death threats, she has gotten bomb threats. her entire life has been turned upside down. multiple anheuser-busch facilities, the maker of bud light, received bomb threats. for kid rock and conservative politicians and fox news, that part didn't matter. the ginned up outrage from the base and then they moved on to their next target. rinse and repeat. >> i didn't know what hat i was wearing. we've got bigger targets. when you look at what, planet fitness? what are they doing? >> kid rock's new target is apparently planet fitness. the gym chain is facing backlash right now after the social media influencer account lives of tick-tock riled up conservatives about the jim's trans-inclusive restroom policies, and now planet fitness locations across the country are getting bomb threats. does this mean that kid rock will never again visit another planet fitness?

who can know? maybe he worked other this morning, i have no idea. the facts here are not the point, the outrage is the point. earlier this week donald trump did his own version of this. in a speech to supporters in grand rapids, michigan, trump told the crowd he had spoken to the family of a woman named ruby garcia, who was allegedly killed by an immigrant last month. the family, though, says that never happened. trump also told a horror story in that speech about how three immigrants had, in his words, been soliciting from children. turns out that story was also not true. right now, the rnc has a website called biden bloodbath.com that lists crimes by immigrants against u.s. citizens, and nowhere on the website as it mentioned that immigrants are statistically significantly less likely to commit crimes than nativeborn citizens. but if it is useful, and it is a great bit of outrage theater, what does the truth really

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strong u.s. labor market underpins economy in first quarter.

unemployment falls to 3.8% in march as labor market continues to impress. this is president biden's economy. the world's best, according to the experts. an economy as strong as this one would have been a pretty solid case for re-election. instead, since 2020, biden has suffered an across-the-board drop in reading on everything from his likability to his ability to run the government. susan glasser writing for the atlantic says it's part of a global trend where politics have turned increasingly toxic for president seeking re- election. she writes the american presidency is the ultimate easy target. whether high gas prices due to the russian invasion of ukraine or post-pandemic inflation of the grocery store, biden absorbed the outrage while the mitigating steps taken by his administration have not rebounded to his credit. republicans are free to blast away at the president without having to do anything to fix a problem, perhaps the greatest perk of being out of power. the incumbency is a problem for

biden in 2024. so is the political amnesia powering the increasingly absurd arguments from trump and his enablers. forgetting is one of the former presidents political superpowers. call it trumps amnesia advantage. joining me now is susan glasser, staff writer for the new yorker. it's great to see you, susan. i do wonder, as we talk about the phenomenon of this trump amnesia advantage, how much you think of it is born on the back of covid trauma, whether or not americans desire to put in a box what happened in those years. has allowed trump to pretend like nothing bad actually happened and he was a much better president than the facts would suggest? >> even if you put aside the craziness of 2020, my goodness, there's so much to talk about, the madness and dislocation of every other year of the trump presidency, even if covid never happened.

i think it speaks to me, once again, to trumps skills, certainly as a marketer, as a brand or, as a self promoter, he's convinced so many people including people who don't like donald trump that somehow he had the greatest economy in the history of the world, that's not true, by the way, but it speaks to the powers of repetition, he's nothing if not a skilled propagandist. that's one thing more broadly, if you look at it, there's a long-term trend predating trump in american politics and around the industrialized world, these are sour times, in many of these electorates, doug, the democratic strategist bill clinton white house political director, he found that the americans have voted against the party in power in 10 out of the last 12 elections. there is really almost, instead of an incumbency advantage that american presidents used to have, campaigning from the rose

garden, it's almost the opposite now. it's an incumbency disadvantage, i think, that president biden is looking at. the deep unpopularity of many incumbents, not just this particular one. >> it seems like you talk about the history, ex-presidents often have a glow that coalesces around them as the years pass. certainly that seems to be happening, no matter with trump, no matter how appalling his four years in office were. the fact of the matter is, he's a candidate again, it's not like he's retired, and the stuff he's saying right now is equally appalling. i guess i wonder why you think the amnesia from his years passed extends to the forgiveness of his lack of coherent policy or any policy at all that would make sense other than xenophobic and bigoted immigration rhetoric. >> i think this is where you see the task of the current white house very clearly in

2024, which is to say, if they don't manage to turn this away from being a referendum on biden, and much more of a choice between biden and trump, they are going to continue to be in trouble electorally, there's a strong sense when faced with a choice, many americans might not choose donald trump, but that right now, part of the reason for biden's low ratings is that they're focusing on him, and his record, and him as the incumbent, and him as the vehicle for the dissatisfaction, remember, large majorities of the american electorate have said the country is going in the wrong direction. that's a huge headwind for any incumbents. they have to turn it into a story, and into an election about donald trump, which is where the forgetting comes in, i hear amazing things, alex, from people who don't like donald trump, they said i had one, say to me recently a young person who clearly doesn't like trump, wow, did you know he was

considering using the insurrection act against americans? and i thought, did you forget 2020 entirely? have you written that out of your consciousness? it's amazing to me. >> i understand the political realities of making this a referendum on trump, but it's not as if good things aren't happening right now for this white house. the jobs numbers are the best they've been since the 1960s. the reality is that a lot of the money was allocated vision for structure projects is finally coming into use in swing states and red states across the country. i guess it really feels like, unfair, to put it bluntly, for this president to have to somehow push his sizable achievements offstage left, because he needs to talk about donald trump more. you not think there's any way for biden to make a stronger case for his incumbency as the economic in particular gets better through the rest of this campaign year? >> it's a good question.

i'm not a seer, and looking at what's in front of me, and i agree that that's one of the paradoxes of this political moment. but remember, the biden white house spent much of last year on a campaign to do just what you're talking about. going around the country trying to sell the presidents many legislative achievements to americans, there is no evidence to suggest that it improved his particular, personal poll standing at all after a year of campaigning to do that. there's evidence that suggests that democrats as a party are doing pretty well right now, but so far it hasn't yet seemed to translate into the prospects for the president himself. >> the night is young, susan, we are going to see how it all shapes up. thank you for joining me this friday night, really appreciate it. >> great to be with you. >> that is our show for tonight, it's time for the last word with ali velshi who is in for lawrence. >> it's an interesting

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