unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. will you will want to watch us tomorrow acting labor secretary wilderness at the table to discuss the march job numbers the blue past expectations tomorrow at 8:00 a.m. eastern. follow us on social media at the weekend msnbc. a big thanks to alicia for joining us at the table. and "velshi" starts now .

what is happening? >> they have me sitting today. there we go. >> i will join you my friend. there you go. here we are. >> everybody is losing their job today. >> do something to make them invite me back. we will make lexi the normal one today. have a great rest of your day. >> have a great show. >> "velshi" starts now. >> good morning. it is saturday april 6th. as donald trump started his

presidential bid last year he made it abundantly clear that vengeance was the theme of his campaign. " for those that have been wronged and betrayed, i am your retribution. " that is a vow he made to his followers as he tried to revive his political career from the ashes of the inspection that he incited. now, with his first criminal trial beginning and nine days, he has doubled about his use of imagery and language that could again be interpreted as incitement to violence. again, it is his followers, not trump paying the price. on monday, authorities arrested ervin lee bolling after they say he rammed his car to a security barrier at the gate of the fbi field office in atlanta. he is facing one federal count of destruction of federal government property and his motives remain unclear. an open-source investigation of his online presence conducted by the group advanced democracy found he may have engaged in

right-wing conspiracies. in one instance, they found a account appears to belong to him on the messaging platform telegram that he was a member of several nonrelated groups. advance democracy discovered a social media program which appears to block the suspect with shared possible containing lies with the presidential election. one included the comment, try one i love you donald trump " and tagged former president trump's file it is not a isolated incident. late last year an official said the justice for missing an unprecedented rise in threats across the federal government across the board. in august 2022 after federal agents performed a search of mar-a-lago within the classified documents case, a man armed with a nail gun try to breach the fbi field office in cincinnati. later, they thought he was at the capital on january 6th and was an active user on truth social where he posted multiple ominous threats against the fbi

prior to the attack. this week's incident in atlanta against the backdrop of trump aaa denies recent warning that if he loses the election there will be a, " bloodbath. " rather than move on from outrage the comment caused, his campaign is using the term bloodbath as part of a anti- biden slogan. at an event in michigan on tuesday, former president trump spoke from behind the podium that had a puckered on it that read stop biden's border bloodbath. as if it is a biden thing. rupublican national committee has paid for new website using the slogan to criticize the biden immigration policy. it is no secret that the american immigration system is deeply broken, but there is no about the border, nor an invasion. these are outrageous lies just like the false claim crimes on the rise around the country. we know this is really about. it is about fear mongering. that is the real strategy a play. it has worked for other autocrats in the past, including trump, who began fear

mongering about immigrants from the moment he launched his first presidential bid. in june 2015, he spent his entire political career disregarding norms and cultivating a culture of violence. it is no longer unusual for trump supporters to where merchandise or wave flags the future threatening slogans or imagery of guns. in 2017, he defended participants of a violent and racist unite the rally in charlottesville claiming there were good people on both sides. he has even federated january 6th convicts dismissing the gravity of the crimes. calling them hostages and unbelievable patriots. trump is simultaneously repairing his loyalist days for an authoritarian takeover of the federal government if he went back a second term and sowing seeds of doubt to de- legitimize the actual income of this year's election in the event he loses. the question is, what can we do to stop this? i do not mean we as voters, i mean we, as citizens.

for nearly a decade former president trump has made the republican party bend to his will. he has manipulated the political system to work in his benefit. he has worked the nation's moral compass along the way. no one person alone will be able to write the many wrongs that trump has committed. we all have a civic responsibility to keep them in.. that comes from being well- informed and by organizing and devoting. to come right the 50th anniversary of the march on washington in 2013, president barack obama stood on the same spot where dr. martin luther king jr. delivered his i have a dream speech. obama recalled the marches, the boycotts, the void or registration drive-ins and citizens. the small, incremental actions that define the civil rights movement and effect a change. to drive from his point he invoked a famous quote with the celtic of his own, " the arc of the moral universe may bend towards justice, but it does not bend on its own. " trending now is a democratic congresswoman from texas

jasmine crockett. she is privately worked as a public defender and as a civil rights attorney. it is your debut with me in studio. >> it is. >> we talk so often and it feels like we know each other well. >> for years. >> i wanted to talk to you about this. when i say what can we do, it is a call to action. we are in battle not of our choosing. most americans do not pick a fight with donald trump, but he has picked a fight with most of us. it is fine the people's will to vote and think more people will vote for joe biden the donald trump this calls for a little more than that. >> it does. it is interesting. we talk with the fight we did not pick. i never wanted to be in politics . i never took political science at i never thought this is the way that my life would turn out. at some point in time you get frustrated and you say, what more can i do? sometimes, when it is just you,

you think there is not enough that you as an individual can do. but the girl that went from being frustrated now ending up in the u.s. house. a place i never intended to be. it is the people that are frustrated. it is the people that just do not know that we need to bring in. we do not need political digging in. winning people that say genuinely, my life is affected by what is going on around me. i have a sorority sister in the statehouse in texas, tony rose. she says, you may not do politics, but politics will do you. i think the more that people recognize our lives are so connected to politics, the more angry they may become to say, let me dig in. weather vanes a volunteer on a campaign. i have so many brand-new volunteers when i ran for the statehouse. >> brand-new, meaning you energize them to come campaign

for you? >> they had never been involved in a campaign a day in our life. part of this is candidates that inspire people and want more. that is what we sell only had barack obama. you saw so many people that had never been engaged in politics there were so attracted to him. this election cycle, i do not know who people are expected about, but i know people are expected about the issues. they are expected about the possibility of having real freedom in this country again. they are expected about the opportunity to have reproductive freedom. the opportunity to make sure we are carrying about what is going into the atmosphere and the air and that we have a greener space. it is excitement, as well as fear. >> the trick is, any of us can express the excitement or the fear. the anxiety or the inspiration. perhaps you can change the bad one into the good one.

you can look at the situation out there, and i think a lot of people are fearful. that is what donald trump wants. he wanted to be fearful of immigrants, black people, transgender people or whatever it is. you can take that and say i would like to direct my energy. you and i have talked about me different versions of this it can be your school board. it can be a public library. i could be would at your library to telling them you support them. it can be phone banking or running. >> it can be anything. that is what i want to do is i go around and speak around the country. one of the things that was tell people is the power belongs to the people. none of the seats blood test. it is not my seat. i am here and serve at the pleasure of congressional district 30 in texas. the power belongs to the people. it is time for the people to take the power back. for so long, people have felt powerless. they would say things like, it doesn't matter if we vote they will do what they want to do. know, the reason they want to change the laws all around the south mostly is because they know that your power is just that strong. we have seen in

georgia. they want george to continue to believe that they do not have the power to come out and turn out again and be blue. they want them to believe that they are destitute and the system is going to hold them down. but the way our system in this country was built, it was built based on the power belonging to the people. does not mean you have to go run for office. let me tell you, i did not get here by myself. it was a coalition of people. it was a village of people. the idea that you have to have legacy politician versus the little girl from st. louis who just got frustrated and had a few-because you have a lot of great. you can have another jasmine crockett, maxwell frost or whoever it is that you feel inspired by. but, it is about number one, letting those people know you have got their back. >> you also want to let the jasmine crockett know. you can find the early jasmine

crockett i think you're frustrated, why don't you do this? >> you can absolutely inspire people. that is what i had to. i remember, before my predecessor even decided she would retire, people tell me to start looking at the seat. they said, she is getting to retirement age. i said, no, we plenty of drama in the statehouse. it was so hard for me to get here. most people wonder and say, where did jasmine crockett come from ? they do not realize that i had the closest statehouse race in texas when i ran. won by 90 votes. when people feel like their votes do not count, i try to tell them that i would not be in congress but for people believing enough to put me into the statehouse. >> so many came out late in the day is that i don't have to make it over the top and i will be the one to help do it. that is the power. in the south, texas and georgia, it was about voting. and then it became about abortion. it is about abortion and book

banning in florida. we have all sorts of freedoms being taken away. that is the obligation of citizenship. you have the right to vote any of our locations to protect what that is. that needs to be motivating. whatever those things are, your freedom and your environmental freedom is being taken away from you. >> it is i am so expected about florida. i may be the only person expected. because the people get to raise their voices. it is something we do not have access to in the state of texas. they do not allow us to do things like that. we cannot collect signatures and get a constitutional amendment on the books, which is annoying. nevertheless, florida has an opportunity. i believe in the people. i know, number one, the popular vote was not won. people need access to the freedom they deserve. whether you agree with the freedom are not.

they recommend if you come after this freedom, you will come after another one. we talked about our trends kids. the fact that your politicians that think it makes sense to eat up on women and take the right way and then got the kids- it is most ridiculous thing ever. that is why people feel that the system does not work. that is why people feel that these people are kings and queens instead of being servants. we are public servants to the people i really believe that even in florida, people will rise up and show them better than they can tell them. >> it is fallout that will have big results. go out and vote to make sure someone else is going out to vote and take them with you on polling day. you know what, if the water and food also. jasmine crockett, what a great thing to see you in person live. coming up, a sign of dystopian times. a law passed shortly after the civil war has entered the conversation about banning abortion nationwide. joining me after the break is democratic senator lisa smith -- tina smith actively working to repeal the 150-year-old's of legislation.

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there is perhaps no clear sign of the times in post-roe american than conservatives trying to revive a 150-year-old chastity law passed during the ulysses s grant administration to ban the mailing of lewd materials which at the time included information related to contraception and abortion. today, this law known as comstock act appeared to have a receptive audience among members of the conservative wing of the supreme court last week, it was referenced three separate times during oral arguments in a case concerning access to the abortion pill mifepristone. passed in 1873, the construct act was name for this cat,

anthony comstock, anti- pornography crusader who collected pornographic images and racy books and presented them to congress as part of its pitch for a public reality code. it reflected puritanical sensibilities that centered around the needs and wants of white christian men. at the time of its passing, entire classes of people were denied basic rights and freedoms . women could not vote, nor could they open a line of credit without a male cosigner. racist laws known as black codes liberated through the self- denying black citizens legal status and maintaining white dominant. laws existed to ban interracial relationships. over time, as society's values involved in the comstock act with absolute and went dormant. that is until today. its resurrection is accommodation of a decade-long effort to ban abortion nationwide ever since roe v. wade made legal in 1973. now, incredibly, the plaintiffs in a case aimed at rollback access to medication for abortion have invoked the comstock act to argue that the fda should have considered this

150-year-old chastity law from ulysses s grant era when approving the abortion pill. even more incredibly, justice samuel alito seem to entertain this idea as considering it a prominent provision. while clarence thomas asked the lawyer for mifepristone how she would respond to the argument that mailing the product would violate the comstock ask. for its part, the biden administration argues the statute is not relevant to the current dispute over mifepristone as it is not the fda' s job to interpret and enforce a criminal statute. it is worth taking a moment to consider how backwards and dangerous it is that this argument is taking place on the floor of the supreme court. again, this is a chastity law that has been dormant for over a century. the version of america to which this law belongs in the country

that did not grant the basic rights of citizenship to women are most people of color. my next guest, democratic senator tina smith is leading efforts to repeal the comstock act writing in the "the new york times", " here is the bottom line . we cannot let anyone, not the supreme court, not donald trump and certainly, not a random busybody from the 19th century take away americans right to access medication abortion. very few republicans will admit to wanting to see a total, no- exceptions ban on abortion in all 50 states, but the comstock act could allow them to achieve that in effect. americans deserve better. the constitution demands better. and common sense dictates that we stop this outrageous backdoor ploy to eliminate abortion in its tracks. " joining me now is democratic senator tina smith of minnesota and she serves on several senate committees, including health, education, labor and pensions committee. the only former planned parenthood executive serving in united states senate. thank you for being with us.

>> good to see you and i am so glad to be with you. >> the law you were talking about, the comstock law, is incredibly invasive. it extends its reach to the banning of the mailing of medical textbooks because of the depiction of the human body therein. love letters fell under comstock act. some news articles were deemed too graphic. it is wild took me justice alito and justice thomas seem to apply the fda should've been considering this relic when evaluating the safety of mifepristone. talk to me about your thoughts. >> you are exactly right. i cannot believe we are talking about this. this old law, the comstock act, has been relegated to the dustbin of history for over 100 years. there has not been any intent to enforce it since the 1930s. here we are today, actually hearing it be cited by justices of the united states supreme court.

why is that? it is because i trump appointed radical judge in texas relied in part on the comstock act in his argument for why it should be illegal to mail medication abortion. i am trying to imagine how this could possibly be explained to a woman in minnesota, who is living in a state that i represent where the rights of people in the freedom of people to make their own decisions about healthcare, including abortion, have been affected. and yet, this could all change if these radical republicans are successful in reinvigorating the comstock act to infringe on people's basic freedoms. >> i have to wonder if mister comstock would've thought the mailing of viagra or cialis would be a problem. i bring it up because it may motivate a few more people to get in on the game. it is a crazy way of looking at 2020 for medicine. >> it is rooted in this victorian-era idea that the government should be the morality police for everybody.

they should be in our personal business telling us what we can receive in the mail even. and yet, let's be honest. that is very much the theory behind what we see in this country today by politicians who believe they should be the ones to decide what healthcare people can get. we can see the applications of that and how cruel it is in chaos it is creating. the effort to bring the comstock act back is another example of what is like a through line from donald trump all the way to what we heard argued at the supreme court just last week. >> when you take this on-sister again, i would not have thought about this one alabama, with its ridiculous ivf ruling. now that i think about it, if you're stuck in 150-year-old thinking, then ivf also. it is a matter of men controlling what women do. all of these things, which the

republicans in alabama that was a bad idea and that is why they decided to protect ivf, is very confusing as to what is right and wrong. if you do not like abortion. i think we all accept that comstock was far too broad and was a law about lewdness set 150 years ago. >> that is is likely right. that is why it has not been enforced since the 1930s. it is why the biden administration is correct that the comp second act should be irrelevant to the question of the fda using its authority to decide what medications are safe and effective for americans to consume. let's be clear, mifepristone medication abortion has been in use for over 20 years. it is proven safe and effective. it is in fact, safer for people than taking tylenol. there is no medical or scientific reason to limit the capacity of people to get access to this medication.

it is purely about one group of people try to control what another group of people are able to do with the lives of their bodies. those people being women. if you do have control over your own life in your own body, you can have control over anything. >> the book banners have also invoked the comstock law because they do not want the transport of books with lewdness in them. the issue is former president trump is talking about nationwide 15 week ban. we have yet to hear more about that did florida has six week ban now. for people who live in states without abortion bans, more than half of the abortions are medicine abortions. if this interpretation is adopted, and i do not think it will be, by the supreme court- if not dealt with, you could live in a state which has reproductive rights and then still lose your access to the most easy way to get there abortion. >> that is exactly right. this is why it is so led to a state like my home state of minnesota. just yesterday i was talking with us about -- about this to

our ag keith ellison. the freedom to have access to healthcare, including abortion, is protected in minnesota. it could be supplanted and overridden by federal law. that is why this is so important . that is why it is so important for people to pay attention and notice this. there is a direct through line from what former president trump did to appoint these supreme court justices like judge kaczmarek in texas that leads us to where we are today. there is a blueprint that has been provided by the brain trust for a future trump presidency called project 23 five. in it, it describes specifically how future trump presidency could essentially be an abortion without ever having a vote passed in congress by relying on the concept act. >> it does not use these terms, but it does discuss a christian national autocracy.

which worries me. as you try to get support for the bill it would've been 10 or 15 years ago that you could get republican support. republicans are digging into old fashion views about control over women. do you believe you can get the support that you need to get the bill passed? >> as you are pointing out, i believe there is broad bipartisan support for protecting access to abortion care in this country. i believe most people in the country with a heard and understood about the comstock act, which they hold the phone. i don't want that to decide what healthcare i can get and what i can get in the mail. unfortunately, we do not see bipartisanship in the united states senate and certainly not in the u.s. house. >> senator, good to see you and thank you for joining us. thank you for your efforts. democratic senator tina smith of minnesota. coming out, he wanted to show what, " a failure of humanity with and in gaza.

" and that was before the deadly strike on the world central kitchen convoy. the president of international rescued from the informant uk secretary is standing by with his latest assessment. that is next on "velshi". ( ♪ ) everybody wants super straight, super white teeth. they want that hollywood white smile. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. it's time to get away and cache in, at cache creek casino resort, to rock and to roll. to go all out or... go all in. with four stars and rising stars, northern california's premier casino resort is the perfect place... ...to do as much -or as little- as you want. make your get away now and cache in

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it is nearly 6 months since october 7th terror attack in israel this weekend cia director william burns is in cairo for the latest rounds of cease-fire hostage talks according to multiple reports, officials from egypt and qatar, who act as a mediator on hamas's behalf are taking part in the talks, as is the head of mossad. the israel spy agency. speaking at brussels at the 75th anniversary of nato antony blinken spoke about the pledge to allow more humanitarian aid to enter gaza and open additional land routes. saying the proof is in the result and we will see those

unfold in the coming days and in the coming weeks. this comes on the heels of an israeli strike that killed seven aid workers with the group world central kitchen. he was official told abc news, the incident which is drawn once for condemnation is, " and megaflood to put in is worth. " israel has taken responsibility for the strike publicly apology and calling it a , " grave mistake and serious failure. tournament in brussels, secretary antony blinken offered his dark assessment of the humanitarian situation in gaza and the future of u.s. policy toward israel. >> here is the current reality in gaza. despite important steps that israel has taken to allow assistance into gaza, the results on the ground are woefully insufficient and acceptable. 100% of the population in gaza knows acute levels of food insecurity. 100% of the relation is in need of you monitoring assistance. this week's horrific attack on world central kitchen was not

the first such incident. it must be the last. there is no higher priority in gaza that protecting civilians, surging humanitarian assistance and ensuring the security of those that provide it. israel must meet this moment. if we do not see the changes that we need to see, there will be changes in our own policy. such a joy to me now is thepresident and ceo of the international rescue committee, is a former foreign secretary of the united kingdom david miliband. david, it is good to see you and thank you for being with us when we spoke several weeks ago you told me a famine in gaza would be, " a failure of humanity " since then, the situation has gotten much, much worse. and then the killing of the world central kitchen workers, a group that is real at one point reportedly had considered asking to spearhead the food

distribution efforts in gaza. world central kitchen is withdrawing from gaza. a lot of organizations, including yours, have had to conduct a strategic review this week did a safety review to figure out, how do we operate in this environment? >> thank you for having me on. the international rescue committee continues to work in gaza. we have emergency medical team working in one of the hospitals with our partner medical aid for palestinians group. we have four or five local partners trying to keep life going in gaza, especially north of gaza, which is under unbelievable strain. two weeks on for the famine warnings of the international class fishing group -- classification group. a technical democratic group warning 1 billion people were catastrophic levels of human and they have not seen the situation of aid flow improve. it is very good that it's the broken has referred to the

inflection point being necessary. we need a paradigm shift. a paradigm shift allowing aid for civilians and protection for aid workers. it is not the generous benefaction of competence, in this case israel and hamas. they are legal and moral rights that civilians and aid workers have. civilians have the legal right under 1945 dimensions established to life and livelihood. aid workers have a legal right to go about their business without being killed. this could not be more serious. i think the stakes are very, very high indeed. not just in gaza, but other parts of the world where impunity, rather than accountability and the flow of aid rain. >> you are a man that has had expensive global politics. jose andres does not. he is a chef that is trying to feed the world and understand the logistics of doing it. i see him all over the world when i go to hotspots.

he stays away from getting political in these apartments. his rebukes were stunning this week they echoed it's a clue what you are saying. you cannot do this. whatever you're happens to be whatever justification you have for your, we have to protect civilians. you have to protect humanitarian workers. that is the way it goes. especially most people do not have access to normal services. the paradigm shift of which you speak, how do we get there? who leads the paradigm shift? are we hoping israel will do it? or is it really america and other israeli alleys that force the hand ? >> as you know, hope is not a strategy. we are well beyond hoping and have to get into action. that is what counts now. yes, a fundamental role for argue -- america. would argue every nation in the world and this is an ngo has a responsible to think about where the world is heading in the military instructor.

-- humanitarian sector. we work in a very specific role . whoever doesn't. it is very important we are able to do that in order to go about our business. it is also vital that every civilian life is of equal value . that is imperative in the humanitarian struggle. what need stabenow is the actions that follow the words that we have heard. to repeat, 1 million people are at catastrophic levels of famine. another million are at emergency or crisis levels. in the gaza case, you asked me what needs to change. let me go through the list again. there need to be crossings not just announced, but opened. needs to be a new procedure for the vetting of trucks. at the moment when trucks go in, bigot blocked. to remind your viewers is odessa two weeks ago on a show at the moment, if there is a

pair of scissors on a large truck considered dual use, medical use et cetera, the entire truck gets turned around. we need a change of procedure. thirdly, we need to make sure that when the trucks enter gaza , they are able to have safe passage through gaza. fourth, civilians have to be able to access aid. finally, i want to make the point of the city of aid workers and their role. on january 18th, international rescue committee, our own organization guest house was hit by missiles from israel. 15 people in the house. luckily, only three were injured. there were no fatalities. we warned at the time that the so-called the confliction system , tragically the system that world central kitchen relied on to make himself safe, that the conviction system by which humanitarian agencies tell idf in this case, of the route they are taking. it was not working. it was okay jenner 18th and is

not working now and needs to be replaced. >> david, thank you, as always, for your insight into this your voice is remarkably valuable in these troubled times. is thepresident and ceo of the international rescue committee, is a former foreign secretary of the united kingdom. i will be joined by the former israel prime minister. will talk about how the war is affecting effort to get hostages back. hostages back. s suffering from pain caused by migraine, nurtec odt may help. it's the only medication that can treat a migraine when it strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt. >> tech: at safelite, we'll take care of fixing your windshield.

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do it anyway. started a word of warning about what you are missing if you are not paying attention to former president trump right now a call to action and we can all do to stop the creeping authoritarian threat that he poses. stretchable call to order the book club. i will speak with the author about the kids book about israel and palestine and that no event is too difficult to discuss. coming up in the next hour right here on "velshi". sometimes jonah wrestles with falling asleep... ...so he takes zzzquil. the world's #1 sleep aid brand. and wakes up feeling like himself.

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what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com. u.s. district judge cannon overseeing the classified documents case is facing mounting screws no -- scrutiny for the recent instructions for the jury that seem to favor the former president trump. last month, the trump appointed judge asked the prosecution and the defense to submit jury instructions based on two hypothetical scenarios. both of which seemed largely except in the defense argument

that trump was able to convert ossified records into personal documents under the presidential records act. or pra. the pra adopted after watergate in 1978 designates nearly all of the president's documents, government property and instructs they should be stored at the national archives once the administration leaves office. however, exceptions are made for personal records such as diaries, journals and medical records. if an outgoing president has the ability to declassify any classified documents arbitrarily, it renders the presidential records act meaningless. legal experts are near unanimous in saying it is observed fundamental misreading of the law and it does not apply here. that is not stopped the trump team from pushing the widely discredited theory and insisting that trump personally declassify the documents in his possession at mar-a-lago, which were later seized by the fbi.

there are no specifics as to when he did that and what is he declassified. on tuesday got special counsel jack smith issued a sharply worded filing wording that the, " flawed premise of including the presidential records act in any jury instructions could potentially jeopardize the government about this case. " smith also conveyed that if judge cannon does in fact rule against federal prosecutors, he is likely to appeal it to the 11th circuit, a higher court. it would not be the first time that smith has appealed one of judge cannon's ruling to the 11th circuit. every reversed her decisions on two occasions. first, after she blocked the government from accessing the documents seized from mar-a-lago . and then, when it reversed her decision to appoint a special master to oversee the review of the documents. this past thursday, judge cannon responded refusing to finalize jury instructions before the case goes to trial, which was initially scheduled for may 20th. what is a matter? it matters because once a jury

is sworn in and seated, double jeopardy attaches. meaning, in the event former president trump is acquitted, the government cannot appeal, even if the judge made an error because the defendant, not -- cannot be tried for the same crime. it is essential the judge clarify her position now before the trial starts. her focus on jury instructions at this stage is particularly unusual because it is coming before other crucial decisions, including the date of the trial itself, which some accused judge cannon of delaying to the benefit of trump. the judge invoking of the presidential records act is alarming as it has no legal connection to the actual charges, which are all grounded in violations of the espionage act. specifically that trump unlawfully retained national defense information after leaving office. legal experts say smith should ask the 11th circuit to intervene once again. summer urging him to seek removal of of her from the case. after quick break out about this and the latest with former u.s. attorney joyce vance. e va.

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join me now is former district attorney joyce vance and msnbc columnist in jupiter and host of sisters in law podcast. thank you for being with us. you and i have this conversation earlier this week. i wanted to get into it more.

gave a great deal of expense as being the prosecutor who would be involved in these kind of decisions or appealing these decisions about the judge's behavior in the 11th circuit. talk to me about how unusual it is for a prosecutor like jack smith to be talking about an appellate court review of hypothetical jury instructions before the jury instructions are delivered. what is it that we do not know about what is going on here? >> it is very unusual for a prosecutor to appeal a judge before the trial takes place in a posture like this one. the reason jack smith is focused on this is because judge cannon has both made an incorrect assessment of the law, one that is clearly erroneous. it is not just the typical disagreements between parties about legitimate interpretations of the law. she is simply off-base. if she proceeds on this course, it will very likely have the results of ending this case.

it will result in her dismissing it or perhaps in the jury acquitting former president trump on the basis of bad instructions about the law. the government cannot appeal any of that once it happens. jack smith will want to take it to a higher court before the trial begins a possible. >> you and i talked the other day about the process. either asking for the judge removal -- judge's removal or the 11th circuit court look at the things. what is involved and how hard is it? what would it do in terms of further delaying the case? >> lots of good questions. prosecutors do this very rarely . for one thing, it requires the approval of the solicitor general. and he or she is very careful about granting that in all but the most egregious cases. this is egregious. there is case law on the 11th circuit where this case is taking place that suggests that if a judge makes several mistakes and is reversed, it can be appropriate

for the 11th circuit to order that that judge be replaced because they may have difficulty setting aside the earlier rulings that have now been reversed. it is not something heavily critical of the judge, it is to make sure the administration of justice here is smooth. were going to replace this judge. i think it is likely jack smith would take that type of approach. doesn't involve delaying the 11th circuit as a court that has shown us it moves quickly when important interests are at stake? even when courts move quickly it could mean a delay of days, weeks and even months. >> there are not a lot of prosecutors that were to cases where a court ordered a district judge to step aside because of repeated reversals of the rulings. tell me about the standard for that. >> there are several cases involving recusal's in the 11th circle.

one of those is a case i worked on united states versus martin. a judge sentence inappropriately under the law several times. when the court lifted the case for the third time, which is similar to the position that jack smith will be in, it will be the third time he would be taking judge cannon to the 11th circuit. the court ruled the way that we discussed a minute ago. they said, this is wrong. it is legally incorrect. instead of asking the judge to do it correctly, were going to go ahead and ask that a different judge be put on the case. >> you and i have talked about the process. i want to get back to the legal meat of this thing. the heart of the case relies on espionage act, which has an impact on national defense information prepared by the intelligence community for the president's conception and professional capacity as president. it is dangerous stuff. the reason it is classified as so that it does not fall into the hands of people, particularly enemies, and even people that should not have it in the united states.

the espionage act was passed before the united states established a classification system. the presidential records act only pertains to classified information, with a carveout for things uniquely personal. medical records diaries and things like that. it does not seem like this is a question of the law. and yet, judge cannon is treating it like it might be. >> that is incredible thing going on. judge cannon is treating it like it is and make legitimate argument or one that deserves serious consideration and it does not. the presidential records act that trump is relying on as a defense and espionage act that trump is charged with violating, if it were a venn diagram and you two circles a looks for areas of overlap to decide issues, there simply is no overlap here. the presidential records act does not do anything to authorize the sort of illegal possession of classified national defense

information that the espionage act makes it a crime to hang on to in the trump situation. he has come up with this defense and manufactured it. he has talked about it a lot on the stump. most judges would've looked at it and taken briefs in and immediately dismissed seen it does not provide a defense of the situation. editor mark about this judge, who is not ruled on the defense itself has instead asked the party's -- parties to give her jury instructions assuming it applies. she seems to be kicking the can down the road saying i cannot decide these issues until the trial is underway. >> thank you for coming back. wednesday night you and i have the conversation and i wanted to get into it more with you. i former united states attorney in alabama and msnbc columnist, joyce vance. straightahead, double jump has reached new levels of other predicate that rhetoric. what we can do to stop his.