act makes it a crime to hang on to in the trump situation. he has come up with this defense and manufactured it. he has talked about it a lot on the stump. most judges would've looked at it and taken briefs in and immediately dismissed seen it does not provide a defense of the situation. editor mark about this judge, who is not ruled on the defense itself has instead asked the party's -- parties to give her jury instructions assuming it applies. she seems to be kicking the can down the road saying i cannot decide these issues until the trial is underway. >> thank you for coming back. wednesday night you and i have the conversation and i wanted to get into it more with you. i former united states attorney in alabama and msnbc columnist, joyce vance. straightahead, double jump has reached new levels of other predicate that rhetoric. what we can do to stop his.

good morning. it is saturday, april 6. in nine days, donald trump's first criminal trial and the first involving a former president will begin in manhattan. despite becoming the republican party presumptive nominee, 2024 has not been off to a great start for the twice impeached indicted ex-president. already penalized hundreds of millions of dollars in a pair of civil cases and soon faces the possibility of being convicted and going to jail. as his legal situation grows more worrisome, trump has escalated his rhetoric. he is abusing his platform to publicly intimidate those involved in his cases and we are already seeing the consequences of it. late last month, tyler vogel, a 26-year-old from lancaster, new york was arrested for allegedly sending threatening text messages to two people connected to a high-profile civil case. this week we found out that the targets of the harassment were

george arthur and goran and the new york attorney general leticia james, two key figures in trump's recent civil fraud trial. vogel allegedly told gorham he would go after him of the former president was in prison or if his assets were seized and allegedly called the judge un-american and texted him that trump was innocent. this is not an isolated incident. it is part of a pattern of attacks against public officials involved in donald trump's legal cases that coincide with the important dates related to those cases. in january for instance, hours before the start of closing arguments in the civil fraud trial, a bomb threat was reported at the home. shortly after the judge issued the judgment in the case, an envelope containing white powder was sent to the new york city courthouse where he works and additionally, every one of the judges and lead prosecutors working on the trump criminal cases, everyone, have been threatened or harassed as a result of this highly politicized environment trump has stoked. the fear is the point.

vogel's arrest occurred against the backdrop of trump tripling down on his recent morning that if he loses the election, there will be a quote bloodbath. he and a lot of irresponsible journalists tried to pass that off as his discussion of economics it was not. but it was not. rather than move on from the controversy of the bloodbath, his campaign is using the term as part of a new anti- biden slogan instead. at an event in michigan tuesday, the former president spoke from behind the podium that had a placard on it that read "stop biden percent border bloodbath." not about chinese cars pick republican national committee paid for a new website using that slogan to criticize biden's immigration policies. it is no secret that the american immigration system is deeply broken. there is no bloodbath at the border. there is no invasion. these are outrageous lies just like the false claim that crime is on the rise around the

country. but we know what this is about. fear and fear mongering. the real strategy at play. it has worked for other autocrats in the past unfailingly including for trump who began fear mongering about immigrants from the moment he launched his first presidential bid in 2015. he spent his entire political career disregarding norms and cultivating a culture of violence. it is no longer unusual for trump supporters -- look at this. to wear merchandise or wear flags that have threatening slogans or imagery of guns. and 2017, he defended the participants of the violent and racist unite the right rally in charlottesville claiming they were good people on both sides. he is also been reading the january 6 convicts now, dismissing the gravity of their crimes and calling them hostages which is offensive. unbelievable patriots. trump is simultaneously preparing his loyalist base for an authoritarian takeover of the federal government if he will win a second term and sewing seeds of doubt to delegitimize the outcome of

this year's election in case he loses. the question is, what can we do to stop this? for nearly a decade, the former president has made the republican party bend to his will. he has been a file to the political system to work to his benefit. he has worked the nation head moral compass along the way. no one person alone will be able to right the many wrongs that trump has committed but we all have a civic responsibility to keep him in check by being well informed, by organizing and of course by voting. to commemorate the 50th anniversary of the march on washington in 2013, president barack obama said at the same spot that dr. martin luther king jr. delivered his "i have a dream" speech. obama recalled the marches, boycotts, voter registration and sit ins and all the small incremental actions that define the civil rights movement in effect the change. to drive his point home, he invoked one of dr. king's most famous quotes with a small tweak of his own, "the ark of moral universe may bend toward justice but it does not bend on

its own." join me as a democratic state representative, the justin j pierson of tennessee who knows very well that the arc of history does not bend on its own. representative, good to see you again. thank you for joining us. >> good to see you again. glad to be here with you. >> we will need to have people like you like jazmine crockett and by the way, she invoked you but need people like you not to get angry because they are angry anyway but to motivate people and inspire people about the things you can do. because what you and your colleagues did in the tennessee state legislature, we did not know about the tennessee state legislature. we did not know that much about you. now he left. he turned off the lights. he will be back in a second. we we need you to inspire people to do the kinds of things done in tennessee that drew national attention just like during the civil rights movement where they did those things and crossed those bridges and sat in at those

soda counters but made sure the press was there to see what was going on. jason stanley is in the studio with me to have a similar conversation. a professor of philosophy at yale university and has been sitting next to me the whole time. we didn't just do that as a backup. we will get representative pierson back. the fact here is that it is the little things that win sometimes. >> that is right. we have to organize against a mass attempts to cut down on voter registration drives and to penalize voter registration groups that are helping to organize the vote and in states like florida. the forces that are trying to suppress the vote, they are planning. the forces trying to suppress the vote or planning so those that want to keep democracy alive have to plan as well. >> let me stop you there. this is the core of the whole

thing. there are people that say, i did not look for this fight. i was not looking for donald trump or this autocratic movement. i will vote for my guy and we will be fine. but that is not fundamentally true. there is a fight that has been brought to us and now we are all in the arena. >> now we are all in the arena and it is absolutely crucial that people take this seriously. the horserace discussion in the media has to end. donald trump is very explicit about what he wants to deal. it really looks like he wants to turn the country into a branch of the trump family business. we can't let that happen. this time, and a second term, he has a team organized. so that there won't be the chaos of the first term. if we are going to save democracy, whether you are a republican or democrat, you need similar organizations right now. that means standing up against those that are minimizing. standing up against media say

that four more years of trump. is not going to be known for more years of trump. we already know and we are seeing people calling for trump to run again in 2028. the first thing we can do is stand up and resist minimization of the threat we face. and that -- >> and that means not objecting to the fact that these things have to be covered by the media properly. not without context or you can object to randomly running trump rallies without any context pick that would be irresponsible for journalists. but we have to tell you outrageous he gets every week so you understand what you get if he becomes your president. >> his followers are taking him literally. the fact that his followers are taking him literally means everyone needs to take him literally. this idea that those who oppose him or are independence or are like, i don't know what side in this horserace am going to

take, and they think it is just rhetoric, his followers don't view it is just rhetoric. we have seen this time and time again. and we have seen him say each time that the election will be rigged. we have seen him say that he will stay in office and he has done it. this idea that we don't take him seriously is complicity in whatever will happen. >> the last time around, we were worried about what would happen january 20th. would somebody have to remove donald trump from the white house. until january 6th, 7th or 8th, it looked like a reality. now we have a different problem. you may not think he will get more votes or electoral college votes. he doesn't need to win at this point to cause the mayhem he wants to cause because he is telling everybody it is rigged. his supporters will believe that if it comes out that joe biden will win the election, his supporters will believe that and i you see that mixed in with bloodbath talk and

fight and weaponry and guns. again, this will be a fight we will be invited into. so better to solve it early. >> we have rhetoric that justifies political violence. that is the goal of the rhetoric. and the idea that you have the rhetoric that justifies political violence and it holds a leader in replacement of u.s. symbols like the flag with signs of political violence and guns on flags. trump replacing flags. those are all signs that the united states itself is going to be replaced by a kind of colt of a leader for trump. that is what we face. the election, if he loses, is going to be contested on the streets. that is what it looks like. he is telling supporters that. and he is threatening us that if he does not win the election, that there will be chaos.

>> what do you do? everybody that watches the show, i would imagine the voter turnout on this show is 100%. everybody votes. that is the minimum. in 2024, i wonder if there are things you have to think about, obligations as a citizen, that go beyond just the vote. it might be simple or smaller about supporting your library or your teachers. but it does feel like you can feel better about this if you feel like you own the result. >> democracy only works if everyone participates of course. that is a clichi but we see it now. we are going to have to emphasize the stakes. people have to organize in their communities. not alone and just say, i'm going to vote alone but do something. my colleague tim snyder went to ohio to go door-to-door in the 2016 elections because he is an ohio boy. that kind of thing. going door-to-door and talking to neighbors and defending

school boards that are being attacked and defending the media picked defending the institutions of democracy. the universities and the schools and the media and the unions. labor unions. those are the institutions of democracy. defend them, organize with them. likes don't count as a famous ukrainian activist said in 2014. >> that is right. great to see you. thank you as always. jason stanley, professor of philosophy and author of the politics of language. we had a bit of a technical difficulty am told. i hope it is nothing more than that. justin j pierson, state representative, is back with me. i wanted to go back to the fact that what you did in the tennessee legislature to object to the legislature not wishing to consider gun control after a very serious shooting in your state was what i call a small

act of courage. meaning a small political statement that you took in the legislature and it became a very big thing. the world learned about tennessee and the world learned about you and the world learned about the situation because you did something. i'm trying to figure out ways in which you talk to people, inspiring them to say, in this moment in which democracy is at stake, what are the things you can do that will help fix it? >> i always want to talk with you. i think the tennessee republican party did not want me to. but we are back. we all have the power to have courage in difficult moments and we have a responsibility and obligation in such a moment as this to stand up and speak truth to power and to use our voices in this moment in time to encourage others to tap into the power that we know they have. a lot of people in these positions want to silence us. they want us to not stand up or speak up. and we know the truth. we know the voices of the

marginalized need to be brought into the center of the conversation. we know people are often relegated to the back of the room and need to be brought to the front of the conversation and the reality is that our democracy is at stake and it is at stake in the election for the white house and for the general assemblies across the country. i see every day what it looks like for our country to move to more and more of an authoritarian state. 's policies and practices are supported that silence dissent and continue to hurt immigrant communities and hurt poor people and heard the lgbtq community. it does take small acts of courage and often times, that sometimes looks like going to the will of the house floor but making phone calls on behalf of candidates you believe in and knocking on the doors for people who are looking to uphold our democracy. and it is always important that we tell the truth and we hold that value. other people running for office are going to lie and we have to make sure we are always telling the truth. >> let's get to the brass

tacks of what the courage takes. you are a politician and i'm a journalist. we are used to criticism. we deserve criticism. we should welcome it. going to a rally and talking to people that know you gives you a certain energy and adrenaline rush. when you go to the well of the tennessee legislature, what you did with justin jones, the you are in the lion's den at that point. talk to me about how you got through that. how you decided to do that and how you got through it and what you thought the other side would look like. >> one year ago today is the anniversary of our expulsion from the tennessee general assembly. we went to the will of the house floor after the most significant mass shooting in our state's history where 3-9- year-old children were killed and three school administrators and staff were killed. it was a couple of months after my classmate from high school was killed. a few months after my mentor, dr. nelson, was killed. the gun violence epidemic is

very real to our communities and in my district unfortunately, we received this every day. we went to the house floor. and myself, representative jones and revisited johnson. we believe the people we serve with should not just be sending thoughts and prayers. when you are in a position of power, you have a responsibility to do more than send more than thoughts and prayers. you have the responsibility to act pick the cowardice of the republican party in tennessee was not to act on gun violence or to prevent tragedies like this from happening but to expel the two youngest black lawmakers in the state of tennessee. that is the response they had and it is because they do not believe in a democracy where people's voices are valued. they do not believe in a democracy or 7000 people came to the state capitol tennessee asking us to do something. to do anything. and instead of taking the plea seriously and passing a red flag law or anything, they decided that instead, it was better to assault our democracy and reduce the voices of 140,000 of our constituents.

what it takes for us now is to see them for who they are and to use that as our determination to fight for the democracy and the american democratic experiment that we believe in. and we believe in one where everyone's voices are valued. we can disagree on so many things but it is so important that we are heard. it is so important that we are fighting for people who are suffering the most in our state and in tennessee, gun violence is a number one killer of children in the state. we are responsible for doing everything possible to change the and since then, a coalition has formed of over 20 different organizations across the state. thousands of people are marching and protesting and reaching out to elected officials. we cannot be silenced. and this movement cannot be expelled. >> representative justin j pierson of tennessee, we appreciate it. i'm sorry for the technical problems. i'm glad that we got you back and i hope we make a habit of it.

>> thank you my friend. >> next, i am joined by the boy of -- former vice principal, tzipi livni. and we will speak with my friend reza aslan about the latest addition to a crucially important book series. this one is called "a kid's book about israel and palestine. do not miss that. orbility to fight them m. tell your doctor if you have an infection or symptoms, had a vaccine or plan to. liver problems may occur in crohn's disease. ♪ now's the time to ask your gastroenterologist how you can take control of your crohn's with skyrizi.

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it has been six months since hamas fired missiles and killed more than 1200 people in israel, mostly civilians. six months before israel began its assault on gaza killing 33,000 people. mostly civilians. for the 134 people still unaccounted for after being abducted on october 7th, 6 months of captivity. according to the israeli government, 254 people were taken hostage on october 7th by hamas and affiliated groups. in november, hamas and israel reach a temporary cease-fire

agreement 112 hostages were released over three days and israel released some political prisoners, paused airstrikes and allowed aid to into the gaza strip. most hostages were released and were women and children. the cease-fire fell apart after the third round of hostages run hostages were released. december 15, 3 hostages escaped captivity and emerged from a building waving makeshift white flags and were shot and killed by israeli forces. the idf said they were mistaken for hamas militants. >> in early fairbury, is released a statement confirming that at least 30 of the remaining hostages were dead and hours ago, the idf announced that the body of a man was recovered and returned to israel. he was abducted october 7th and murdered while in captivity. that according to israel.

his mother was also taken hostage and was released during the november cease-fire. his father was killed october 7th. on february 12, 2 hostages, a 7- year-old man and a 64-year-old man were rescued in a dead rat -- dramatic israeli raid in northern gaza and 70,000 postings were killed. today, roughly 100 hostages, six of whom are american, are believed to be alive in gaza in 112 were released in november. united nations and israeli health officials found that there were more than 50 days in captivity at that point and had taken a physical and psychological toll. the older hostages reported that hamas had taken their glasses and hearing aids. they were disoriented and often cold and some reported being treated with kindness and others reported being kicked and beaten. they were fed but not enough. on average, the children that were released had root lost roughly 15% of their body weight. they were pale and gaunt having been kept underground with no

sunlight for two month. many head lice, and skin infections and rashes from unsanitary conditions. that was after less than two months of captivity. it has now been six months. this week, israel saw what was likely the largest protest since october 7th as tens of thousands of people took to the streets to protest benjamin netanyahu and his approach in this war. most were there to show support for the hostages accusing benjamin netanyahu of failing to prioritize the hostages still presumed to be alive somewhere in gaza. meanwhile, benjamin netanyahu and his administration continue to insist that they are in fact doing everything they can do to bring the hostages home. this week, family members of hostages sat down with nbc news and lester holt. julian k, a stepmother of a hostage, said this. >> look at gaza. how can you not look at that and not feel unbelievable sympathy? for the suffering going on there. and here we are with our

innocent loved ones, hostages for 181 days hidden in tunnels. you cannot see them anymore. the kind of disappear in this horror that is going on and there is no question that it feels like the world is moving on. >> one of the people interviewed was rachel goldberg. her 23-year-old son is one of the israeli americans still believed to be alive in gaza. hirsch was at the supernova music festival in southern israel october 7th when hamas attacked. as the terrorists descended on the festival, hirsch and a friend hid for their lives with 27 other people in a bomb shelter but the militants threw grenades into the bunker. many of the people hiding their died. hamas videos show hirsch alive that day and half of his left arm blown off as he was dragged in the gaza, now hostage.

rachel has now been six months without her son. she said she and her family have held on to one mindset to get through the last six months, knowing that her son is still hostage and still is somewhere in war-torn gaza. he said this hope is mandatory. >> the issue of animal cruelty and animal suffering across the country is an enormous issue. it is easy sometimes to disassociate with something that is not right in front of you. our commercials are showing footage and it is often a softened version of what is actually occurring in these situations. we see dogs carrying chains heavy than their own body weight. this is how this dog lives its entire life. basically a circle is its whole existence. we have found dogs with no

protection from the elements to be without shelter or adequate water and sometimes they are left to languish until they die. >> that is why we need your support more urgently than ever. so go online, call or scan this code to save an animal who is suffering. >> when i think about the suffering i see, it is all terrible. it is so much more common than people think. >> and so much worse. but today, you can take one simple action to save an animal's life. scan the scoter visit our website or call this toll-free number and sign up with your $19 monthly gift. you will save lives. that is our promise. do it in the next five minutes and we will send you this exclusive t-shirt and welcome kit. >> if you are there in person

and you see what we see and you hear the cries in the whimpering and you feel the fear, i think most people would fear, i think most people would be as outraged as it's time to get away and cache in, at cache creek casino resort, to rock and to roll. to go all out or... go all in. with four stars and rising stars,

northern california's premier casino resort is the perfect place... ...to do as much -or as little- as you want. make your get away now and cache in at cache creek casino resort. joining me now is tzipi livni, a former israeli vice prime minister and former israeli foreign minister among other high-ranking positions. she has participated in passed talks between israelis and palestinians and recently testified in court against prime minister benjamin netanyahu which remains ongoing in spite of the war. thank you for being with us again. we appreciate you being here. >> thank you for speaking about the hostages and the families because it is

heartbreaking. it is like the world completely abandoned them. just today, the body of one of the hostages returned to israel. and the video of him alive was released. we need to understand this, understand this kind of cruelty. >> let's talk about that. when i was in israel in the days after october 7th, i met with a number of families of hostages. and it was inconceivable, their grief and fear at the time. now it is six months later and gets normalized from the rest of the world but it is never normalized for the families of a hostage, whether their loved ones are thought to still be alive or whether they are dead. that will never change for them. it doesn't get better.

>> imagine the situation. your scent or daughter. in the kind of torture they are having to endure. it is so difficult to absorb and painful to absorb. >> one of the standouts about your time in government is that you are thought of as somebody who believed in a peaceful solution and peaceful coexistence between israelis and palestinians in a two state solution. our hearts have hardened since october 7th on all sides. all we have is more civilians suffering in gaza and no relief for the families of the hostages and no end insight. tell me what you have been thinking about recently about how to get to that end.

>> i believe in the same strategy. was the chief negotiator for peace between the last two rounds of negotiations. and unfortunately, we did not get an acceptance or a yes answer. but yes, i believe in this interest. we have seen these things from the other side. but the right strategy was always to act against hamas and to work and strengthen. until they are incorporating with israel. and the strategy of netanyahu was completely the difference. in weakening the regime. and i believe this is what we should do to act against hamas.

but the idea of toppling the regime -- the only regime that can replace hamas is a palestinian. it is too weak now. but other forces to help them and take over. if i may add, this is also connected to releasing the hostages. what hamas demands as they of will go back from the south of gaza to the north of gaza. the israel army -- this is a place where we can bring this down this is mike criticism on netanyahu. for his political ideology --

for those that are not willing to renegotiate, he is not willing to speak about what we called for six months ago and the day after. this is here and now. in this is time to cooperate with the u.s. instead of saying that it can stand against the world and work with the world and replacing hamas. so on one hand, military gibson or to replace them. >> you have answered all of my questions. you are thinking about it the right way. unfortunately, that is not would benjamin netanyahu is doing. hopefully there will be enough pressure to convince him to do that and the hostages will all be released and returned to their families and the killing will stop in gaza. thank you as always for the time you take to have important discussions with us.

a former israeli vice prime minister tzipi livni. >> over the past few years, children's literature has been a key target of book banning experts. today we are discussing a new book that tackles the war in gaza and does not shy away from the complexity of the conflict or the brutality of war and yet is still appropriate for very young readers. it is called a kid's book about israel and palestine by my friend reza aslan. do not miss this important conversation. strikes and prevent migraine attacks. treat and prevent, all in one. don't take if allergic to nurtec. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain. relief is possible. talk to a doctor about nurtec odt.

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. next week on the velshi banned book club, we have more on a book that his impassioned young readers not just in america but around the world. i'm talking about the award- winning best-selling and beloved bridge to terabithia by katherine paterson. it is said in rural virginia. it follows a 10-year-old and his new best friends. every day, justin leslie across the

creek behind last week's house and enter a world of imagination and magic in their own making. until tragedy strikes and changes should just because life. exporters family, the reality of death and the power of friendship. 30 years after the initial publication in 1977, bridge to terabithia even became a movie. >> we need a place just for us. >> when we go back to school, there we are waiting. >> there we are. >> someplace better than just not being at school. what if there was a magical kingdom only we knew about? >> before next weekend, get the book. read the book. send us your comments and questions and memories of the first time you read bridge to terabithia. you can send that to me on my story@velshi.com.

like i say, the velshi banned book club is nothing without you, it's members prefers to have today's meeting of the velshi banned book club. reza aslan brings us a kid's book about israel and palestine. the message is that no event is too complicated or hard to discuss. it is the one that many children and adults need right now. do not miss this conversation next.

as members of the velshi banned book club know, many of the books targeted or challenged it for a ban across united states are young adults and children's literature mostly for high school students and younger. the reason for the ban is as obvious as it is insidious. it is easy for far right organizations like moms for liberty to argue that complex ideas are difficult stories can stories can confuse or frighten children, robbing them of their innocence before they are ready for the harsh realities of the world. it is easy to say kids just can't handle these books but that is not true. children experience the same complex and difficult realities that we do as adults. systemic racism, bigotry and violence. they don't just begin when you turn 18. to assume that young people can't comprehend these themes on the page, even when they have the chance to experience them in real life, is both naove and woefully unfair to those children. this week, the velshi banned

book club features a kids book about israel and palestine by reza aslan and has not actually been banned yet it is part of a larger series entitled "a kids book about" that has faced calls for a ban. one of the titles, a kids book about racism, was part of a wide reaching censorship effort in the new york and pennsylvania school district in 2021. collectively, this series of explainer books for kids generate meaningful and necessary conversation for both children and equally importantly, their parents. children deserve to understand what is happening in gaza. they see on television screens. they hear adults talking about it. aslan's book makes this conversation possible and appropriate by laying out the history of the israeli palestinian conflict in a clear and adjustable way. crucially, a kids book about israel and palestine shares put multiple perspectives including important context without overly simplifying the topic for a young audience. aslan takes great care to explain the history of israel

and palestine and doesn't sugarcoat it. he writes about the holocaust. he defines what a cycle of violence is and how we are stuck in one right now and gives young readers the tools to be part of the solution themselves and carry out those difficult conversations and listen to other people and other points of view. his affirming language delivers the true message of this book to its audience. the conflict is not above your head. you can understand it. you can be part of change. you can make a difference. aslan says, "being able to be seen both sides of a conflict can be kind of a superpower. it means you have what it takes to be a peacemaker. and if we are ever going to solve this conflict with fairness and justice, it is going to take people like you who recognize there is more that connects the people of israel and palestine then there is driving them apart." after a quick break, i am joined by reza aslan himself, a scholar of religion, friend of the program and the author of

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to striking janitors in the 90s to today's fast-food workers. californians have led the way. now, $20/hour is here. thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters. joining me for the meeting of the velshi banned book club is reza aslan and the new york times best selling author at a kids book about israel and palestine and other several important books. my friend, it is great to have you here again. >> wonderful to be here with you again.

>> i want to talk about the book before discussing more general concepts. as i mentioned in the intro, you discussed the holocaust and the concept of knockabout. and you said palestinians refer to this terrible event as the catastrophe. they had become a people without a country of their own. there is no center to a book like this that will not be scrutinized by someone who thinks that you are trying to politicize something. how do you think about how you write this down? and how did you agree on how to present this to children? >> to be honest, i really did run this book by a lot of people. israelis, palestinians, peace negotiators, friends, allies. and he wanted to hear from everyone. you are right. when you are talking about a book of this complexity, there are a lot of deep, raw emotions involved. at the same time however, as you rightly have noted, we have

to remember that kids are a lot more sophisticated then we think they are. we can maintain a lot of complex or even contradictory information in their minds. they have deep imaginations. and more importantly, they are not often burdened by the same preconceptions that a lot of adults have that keep us from being able to see the other side and empathize with the other side. while i listen very carefully, i was really making sure that i was writing this, primarily for my own children. i have four young children between the ages of 4-12. and i kept thinking, what do they need to know and how to they understand the information? what is the misinformation that they need to have cleared up? that became my northstar, if you will. >> i served for many years with seeds of peace which is an organization that thought, when

kids are 15 or 16, you can get them to overcome these things before they get hardened. and fact, it wasn't just the view that kids can understand complexity and the truth but that they might be better able to have been able to understand it because they are not hardened. they may not be as hardened as we as grown-ups are yet. >> yes. in fact, that is just a biological fact. their brains have not solidified in the way that adults have. they are open to different ideas. and what is really unique and extraordinary about the israeli palestinian conflict is that it is one of those conflicts where you really do see that there are two equally valid, equally legitimate national narratives. this is a conflict in which both sides have done extraordinarily wrong things to the other. it is a conflict in which both sides have a very legitimate reason to be angry at the other side. and so, it is a perfect vehicle for kids to flex the superpower that you mentioned, which is

empathy. and that is really the moral here. this is not a book that tries to solve the israeli palestinian conflict or try to pretend there is an easy solution for kids to understand. there is no solution in this book. it is a challenge. do you have the ability to notice that both sides have an argument here for this land? and can you access those legitimate feelings that all kids understand about fairness and justice and sharing and equality and if you can just do that, then you have taken the first step to becoming precisely the peace maker that we hope the children will be. >> tell me about the process. because this is so fraught and so many people have such strong opinions on the issue. some are informed opinions and some are less informed. what was your process and going through the actual long and complicated history to curate

what goes into a book that a child could understand? >> honestly the biggest challenge at first is, where did this conflict began? you have heard this a million times from people on both sides. or commentators who will say all the time, this conflict is thousands of years old. it is a deep-seated conflict. it is about a god and about cosmic forces of good and evil. how do you expect to possibly solve this thing? one of the biggest challenges was to remind, not just children, but their parents, that this isn't a thousand-year- old conflict. it isn't a conflict taking place in the heavens. this is a 20th century conflict about land, about politics, about identity, about dignity and about fairness. and those are all things that any child can understand because they see it in their

own lives. they know what it means to share. they know it fairness means. and just bringing it back down to earth is an important thing to do, not just for kids by the way but for adults and especially for decision-makers and policymakers who sometimes use the excuse that this is an ancient conflict in order to simply brush off any possibility of doing anything about it. >> reza, i am kind of wondering, at the time we booked you for this and now, whether somebody would actually want to ban this book. it does seem like more information to people that -- issues people are polarized on, not something that falls in the favor of these groups to ban books. they literally don't want people to have more information because it works against a proper dialogue. you have taken an issue that is very timely and you have sort of wrapped it into a larger idea of conflict resolution and empathy and hearing other

people's perspectives in this book. >> as a matter of fact, i just had a book event canceled a couple of days ago precisely because of this reason. and it was because the bookstore owner themselves read the book and said essentially that i wasn't welcome to come and appear at the bookstore because i lied about one side. and you said something so spot on a minute ago. the people that have a problem with this book all say the exact same thing. it is too much focused on the other side what they really mean is that you are humanizing the other side. you are giving the other side validity and some since. and only one side of the argument is valid and really only one side of the argument truly is human.

that is the worst thing about this conflict. that is one of those sayings that it becomes so easy to not just dismiss the desires and the ones in the needs of the other side but to dismiss the very humanity. to pretend they are not even human or they don't have the same love for their children that we do, that they are different then we are. you hear politicians in the united states make this argument all the time. kids don't think that way. they just don't have the mental capacity to dehumanize other people. and all you have to do is bring the conflict down to the human level and they will get it. they understand it. >> a lot of people should read this book. not just kids. >> reza is the author of the velshi banned book club feature "a kids book about