about this issue as a concept of freedom, right? that is at the heart of the way of the re-election campaign thinks about donald trump as a threat. you had what donald trump said on monday and immediately you had these democrats and this white house attacking him for kind of wanting it both ways. and so what you will see from them moving forward especially from this vice president is talking about this issue as not just a women's issue, not just an issue of health care, it is all those things, but more importantly an issue of freedom. and whether or not people have access do what they want to do with their bodies not just in certain states but across the board here. >> and we'll have much more on all these stories in the hours ahead. eugene, thank you so much for joining us. and thanks to all of you for getting up "way too early" with us on this wednesday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. trump's lawyers, they argued

that he can't get a fair trial in manhattan so the judge should postpone the trial indefinitely while they seek a change of venue. nope. sorry. it is wedding rules. you put down the venue deposit, you are getting married in a rustic barn. okay? that is how it is. you sign the thing. i don't care that all of a sudden your fiance is worried about his allergies. too bad, take a zyrtec and put on the damn tux. trump's lawyers the former president couldn't get a fair trial because the jury pool is polluted by news of trump's other recent cases. so are you saying members of the jury can't have seen any news about donald trump's crimes? his crimes are the news! >> yes, there is that. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it is wednesday, april 10. we'll have the latest on the

hush money case which is now days away from jury selection and an update on trump's classified documents case. also ahead, president biden's new comments on israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, they come as vice president kamala harris meets with the families of the hostages still being held by hamas. and on capitol hill, mike johnson's speakership hangs in the balance over funding for ukraine as far right republicans are threatening to give him the kevin mccarthy treatment. with us we have the host of "way too early," jonathan lemire, nbc news national affairs analyst john heilemann, correspondent vaughn hillyard and also former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst joyce vance is with willie and me. and the big news this morning comes two days after former president trump again took credit for ending roe v. wade

and said states should decide their own abortion laws. remember this. >> many people have asked me what my position is on abortion and abortion rights. especially since i was proudly the person responsible for the ending of something that all legal scholars both sides wanted and in fact demanded be ended. roe v. wade. my view is now that we have abortion where everyone wanted it from a legal standpoint, states will determine by vote or legislation or perhaps both, and whatever they decide must be the law of the land. in this case the law of the state. >> arizona giving the nation the latest stark example of the consequences of leaving the issue up to individual states. the arizona supreme court ruled a 160-year-old near total abortion ban still on the books

in the state is enforceable. the decision which could shutter abortion clinics across arizona adds the state to the growing list of places where abortion health care is effectively banned. to allowed an 1864 law to stand, make being abortion a felony punishable by two to five years in prison for anyone who performs one or helps a woman obtain one. the civil war era law, which was enacted half a century before arizona even was a state, does include an exemption to save the life of the mother. arizona's attorney general came out against the ban moments after the ruling. >> let me be completely clear. as long as i am attorney general of the state of arizona, no

woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law. no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this law as long as i am attorney general. not by me nor by any county attorney serving in our state. not on my watch. >> and she'll be our guest at 9:00 a.m. so let's do the math here. monday morning president biden says i am the one who overturned roe v. wade. i'm proud of that. and number two, it should be up to the states. and then arizona says, okay, hold our beer. >> yeah, arizona answering the call from former president trump very quickly there. and as you said, this is a code written by a judge named howell in 1864. how old is this?

that judge was nominated by abraham lincoln. and now they are make it the law enforcement the land. so president biden condemned the arizona ruling. and the president calling the decision a result of the extreme agenda of republican elected officials who are committed to ripping away women's freedom. the president's statement also highlights that the ban has no exception for rape or incest. none. on social media, biden blamed donald trump for the ban posting a news headline of the ruling writing trump did this. vice president kamala harris now will travel to arizona on friday. she was in phoenix just over a month ago as part of her fight for reproductive freedoms tour as it is called. the white house says the vice president has held more than 80 event in the 20 states inside the supreme court overturned roe just under two years ago. so joyce vance, we can talk about the politics but let's

talk about the legal side of this. how did we get from a code in 1864 to a supreme court uphold ruling in 2024? >> so yesterday the arizona supreme court confirmed what we know about the zombie laws. these are pre-roe laws that banned abortion in 1973 when the supreme court decided roe v. wade. they were no longer good law. but instead of removing them from the books in many conservative states, they were permitted to stay looking forward to a day where roe v. wade would be overturned. and that is precisely what has happened. we've seen a series of these laws, you know, i think this is the oldest one we've looked at, come back into effect. and willie, here is the problem with these laws. even when you have an attorney general who says she won't enfor yourself the law and she will try to keep all of the county attorneys in arizona from

enforcing it too, there is risk, fear, uncertainty. doctors in arizona, clinics, people who help women access reproductive health care, they don't know whether that attorney general will remain in place. might someone come on board in two or three years who will prosecute them for a felony crime. and this is essentially the end of access to abortion in arizona. >> so joyce, a couple of questions. and by the way kamala harris heading to arizona is definitely symbolic support for abortion health care. she has shown up at abortion clinics and of course the biden administration doing everything they can to support women and their right to these choices and to this health care. but legally now that this has happened does have challenges. it doesn't immediately go into

effect. you can explain the different steps that are being taken to try to push back at least? >> right. so there is a grace period of about two weeks before it can go into effect. and that is typical in this sort of a situation. the problem is, and there will certainly be efforts to challenge the law, the arizona supreme court referred to what they were doing as enforcing the mutable will of the voters. meaning that the will of voters can change over time. we know that there is strong support in arizona for abortion rights. and there is a strong libertarian streak in the states, barry goldwater, former presidential candidate, when george w. bush adopted an anti abortion platform when he was running for election, barry goldwater said that it is wrong for us to be anti-abortion, abortion has been around for a long time, it will always be here. this is a death knell for the

republican party. so even among arizona republicans, there is some support or at least not this sort of a wish for a total ban on abortion. but again, it will be the atmosphere of fear that will be created that will prevent challenges and prevailing views from protecting abortion at least until arizona's legislature, if it in fact is willing to go there, adopts new laws that supplant this one. >> and there is no clear example of how toxic this issue is and this ruling is for republicans particularly within the state of arizona than kari lake. the arizona republican senate candidate yesterday came out strongly against arizona's supreme court ruling. she wrote in part, i am the only woman and mother in this race pip understand the fear and anxiety of pregnancy and the joy of motherhood. i oppose today's ruling and i'm calling on katie hobbs and the state legislature to come up

with a common sense solution. that is not what kari lake was saying just two years ago when she was running for governor promising to support whatever the state supreme court decided. >> i don't believe in abortion. i think the older law is going to take -- is going to go into effect. that is what i believe will happen. i don't think abortion pills should be legal. >> we have a great law on the books right now. if that happens, we'll be a state where we will not be taking the lives of our unborn anymore. i'm incredibly thrilled had we are going to have a great law that's already on the books. so it will prohibit abortion in arizona and i think that we're going to be paving the way and setting course for other states to follow. >> vaughn hillyard, you have covered arizona and kari lake closely. this puts into stark relief her position two years ago and now that the state supreme court says an 1864 territorial code is

enforceable in 2024, she's running from it as many republicans within the state of arizona and across the country. >> i think kari lake somehow finds herself being the character that will be across all 50 states. she is somebody who back in 2022 was looking at the hypothetical of roe v. wade being overturned. those comments just a couple months prior to that decision when she called the territorial ban a great law. but then fast forward several months later, it was in october of 2022 three months after the dobbs decision and i had a back and forth with her whether she would stand by if she had won the race for governor and defended the territorial ban which bans all abortions in the state of arizona except for when a one's life is in danger and could imprison a provider up to five years. notably she sort of softened a little bit and she told me that

she would stand by and defend whatever law the courts decided on behalf of. well, fast forward, this is where for all these political figures now, somebody may hold deeply true convictions about abortion, but suddenly we're at the juncture here two years after dobbs where the real life impact in the political consequence are coming to a head. and in the state of arizona, exit polling in 2022 showed that more than two-thirds of arizonians wanted to codify abortion rights in the state of arizona and kari lake is well acknowledging that seven months from now there is likely going to be a referendum on the state ballot that would grant abortion rights, reproductive rights in the state of arizona as a constitutional amendment up to 124 weeks. and that is where you see her statement saying she opposes the territorial ban. not only are there real life stories of womens and families that will continue to come out, but also the political consequence that is so much tied

to their own. >> and it is so interesting, first of all, this law if and when it goes into effect will cause an immediate pain, trauma, suffering and danger for women, for countless women across arizona denying them health care and it will have terrible very specific impact on women and their families. having said that, listening to vaughn's coverage of kari lake and her twisting and turning on this and running to the hills is very typical of donald trump who is trying to twist and turn on this as he does on everything. and we have some polling and focus groups coming up in the next hour that will show that this behavior is beginning to take a toll. on trump's support. so even though this is terrible news for the women of arizona, this is an opportunity for the biden campaign to really show the differences here.

>> you're right to underscore the human impact ere of this decision. and as sc kari lake never conce defeat, but you're right, this is a huge moment especially coming two days after donald trump said that states should set their own abortion policies. and now arizona has. and the electoral impact going to be significant. whether this law is enforced or not, it is injected in to the political conversation yet again with how the republican party views abortion, views women's health care. it was just a week ago that we all had a conversation here and i talked to democrats too who felt like maybe biden's only path to 270 electoral votes was michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania and they were pleased that the one vote in

nebraska was preserved. that is precisely 270. a lot of democrats were feeling pretty pessimistic like georgia that like arizona polls suggest that he is trailing donald trump there. but this puts it back in play. >> and i was in arizona over the last weekend. and even before this ruling. and there was a lot of discussion about the fact that abortion rights groups were trying to get the initiative on the ballot for november. there is a july deadline. but even before this they had the signature to get that on the ballot or so they said. so it was looking like something enshrining abortion rights in the arizona constitution was going to happen anyway. this is -- we'll be saying this a lot between now and november which is the human cost of this is huge at least in the short term to arizona women if this goes in to effect in any short term way. the political effect of this could not be better for joe

biden. that is just a fact. and it is not just about in the contrast, not just about where donald trump is. this is now in these states, is this a turnout game. how do you get -- what is joe biden worried about most every day. democratic constituents not turning out for people, people who are not thoroughly as enthused with joe biden as he thinks they should be or as they could be or as they were in 2020. what is the biggest thing that has energized the democratic base and also marginal voters in the suburbs all over the swing states. it has been since dobbs threat to abortion rights. constitutional amendment on the ballot, about an initiative in arizona, is not -- that is the way arizona comes back in play for joe biden despite all the other problems he has. doesn't mean that he will win it, but democrats look in nevada too where there is another one of these ballot initiatives. whether it is in florida or arizona or nevada, democrats have a reasonable case to hope

that that will super charge enthusiasm and turnout in the fall and all of a sudden you have places like arizona that joe biden won in 2020, people are like it doesn't look that great, but it resets everything in terms of what the eelectric to the regard will look like in that state. >> and coming up on "morning joe," another one of donald trump's delay tactics gets shut down by a judge ahead of the hush money trial. we'll have the latest on the former president's legal troubles. plus vice president kamala harris meets with families of some israeli americans being held hostage by hamas. and we'll talk to a democratic lawmaker who has firsthand insight on the ongoing hostage negotiations. also ahead, british foreign secretary david cameron is our guest, he isin washington calling on congress to pass funding for ukraine. but are house republicans listening? you're watching "morning joe." i? you're watching "morning joe."

what constitutes the primary threat to freedom and democracy at home? >> donald trump. seriously. donald trump talking -- he uses phrases like you are going to eviscerate the constitution, he will be a dictator on day one. he has a very i think jaded view of the constitution. he made it clear that he doesn't plan on abiding by parts of it if he thinks it is not appropriate. and at least he's saying it out loud. president biden warning about the threat he says donald trump poses to gd. an appeals court judge has rejected another attempt by trump to delay his upcoming hush money trial set to get under way next week. it is a criminal trial. trump's attorneys tried to argue that the proceedings should be

postponed while they challenge a court imposed gag order. the judge rejected the argument and jury selection is still slated to begin on monday. if it starts on monday, wilgly, that wou history. >> yeah, that is a criminal case for the former president of the united states, trial set to resume money that is the hush money trial. and meanwhile special counsel jack smith has earned a partial victory in the classified documents case. the judge granted the request from federal prosecutors to keep the names of government witnesses sealed. but she also ruled significant portions of witness statements to investigators can be made public. the judge said redacting the names would address the safe city concerns for potential witnesses making it unnecessary to grant what she called wholesale requests to seal nonidentifying substantive witness statements. judge cannon also criticized

smith in her ruling saying his arguments and evidence should have been raised earlier. so joyce vance, on balance here, a good day for the prosecution or not so much? >> you know, i'm in the not so much camp on this one, willie. and this is a very surprising decision. something that judges are typically very good about, it is not viewed as an issue that is pro prosecution or pro defense, is protecting witnesses in trials. people who come forward to do their duty in many cases they didn't have a choice about doing it. they are under subpoena. so when there is any sort of a threat to their safety or security, even one that is not as serious of a threat as what we know exists here because we've seen how trump is able to rally his base, even in those more modest cases judges are very protective of witnesses when necessary. and here even though their names may be redacted, the special

counsel may have to fight that on a case by case basis, that some of the details of their testimony that will be released may make it possible to identify them. and so now we're in a moment where there is a game about the identity and safety of witnesses. it is something that no federal judge should permit to happen in her courtroom. >> and of course the context of the testimony people can deduce probably in some cases who is giving it. so let's go back to the hush money case briefly if we could. jury selection now after yesterday's decision slated to begin on monday in a historic criminal case against a former president of the united states. do you see anything between where we sit right now and this trial actually getting under way on monday? >> former president looks increasingly desperate to keep this one from going to trial. and i know we've gotten into the has been bet of calling it the hush money case.

but the judge issued a series of rulings talking about how he would conduct voir dire. and he will read a description of the case to jurors that will explain that it is about interference in advance of the 2016 election. and that is where this case is properly positioned. that is why trump is so desperate to keep it from going to trial. rook, i've seen defendants who really don't want their case to proceed to engage in a full display of delay tactics late in the game. we might see someone become ill, certainly that won't benefit donald trump politically, but when the stakes are that high, maybe he will decide that maybe it is time to develop an illness, he might try firing his lawyers. but what has seemed clear in the last few days, the courts are on to what is going on here and the new york appellate judges have said, look, you can appeal your issue about venue or the gag order, but what you can't do is delay the trial in order to do

that. >> so on another trump legal front, his civil fraud case here in new york, allen weisselberg former cfo to be sentenced today for lying under oath after he pled guilty to two counts of perjury. you will be at the courthouse for this. remind viewers why this is important. >> allen weisselberg is such a striking figure in all of this, but today he still gets to testify against donald trump and that is what makes him so striking. he already spent 100 days at the rikers jail complex and part of the tax scheme in which he took perks from the trump organization and during that trial he testified against the trump organization but not donald trump. now, fast forward, this has everything to do with his testimony related to the civil fraud trial over the repeated financial fraud claims made last

year and what he has already admitted to the court is that perjured himself by lying about the extent to what he knew about the valuation of donald trump's penthouse here in midtown manhattan. and so we are looking at him being potentially sentenced up to five months in prison, but as part of the plea agreement, he did not have to commit to testifying in the hush money payment case. so again, we see allen weisselberg this key figure for more than 50 years for the trump organization not directly testifying against donald trump. yet at the same time, you go back and you are talking about michael cohen, michael cohen says the one other person that heard donald trump directly tell him in 2016 to go and set up the financial arrangement with stormy daniels was allen weisselberg. and so part of the struggle with the trial is if you don't have allen weisselberg agreeing to testify and instead going to rikers at the age of 77 years old that is a difficult witness here who is willing to go to

jail instead of truthfully testifying against him. >> and when i see someone like allen weisselberg headed to rikers, 77 years old, is that right? >> yeah. >> 77 years old. and one of the great mysteries of our modern political era is why anybody would be willing to go to rikers for donald trump. but as we look at this case about to get going and is this the case a lot of people have said over and over again, you know, this is not the case you would want with -- if there was going to be one donald trump case, let's do the insurrection case first, that would be better, more important significant for democracy, maybe more political. i know you have a view about this i think about the way in which this case kind of picks the donald trump psyche, may be more destabilizing than some of the other cases. talk about that. >> i think two things. i don't think that you can decide which case is more important than the other. it is not ours to decide. this one is going first.

was a crime committed, that is what will be proven or disproven in court. and as an earlier guest pointed out, it has more to do with interference in an election than hush money to a porn star, but it does have to do with hush money to a porn star. so it has to do with finances, second his personal behavior, third embarrassing his wife melania by all appearances no knowledge here seems pretty done with him. and so it embarrasses him. trump doesn't like to be embarrassed. he doesn't get jokes. he doesn't understand being mocked. he can't even make fun of himself. we've seen that over and over again. and i'm speaking from personal knowledge of this man from time spent with him when he was the host of "the apprentice" and before he began his run for the presidency. this trial drives will him nuts.

just like the civil trials. they were expensive. they caused him to bleed money on many levels. they embarrassed him. they drive him crazy. and they embarrass him which is more important to trump in some ways than others. but having said that, this will make history. this is a criminal trial. it has never happened where a former president goes to court for criminal charges against him. so i think that we have to watch the law and follow the story and not make judgments on which one we think should go first. they all may tie together in the long run. we'll see. vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. and joyce vance, thank you as well. and coming up on "morning joe," our next guests are leading a new effort to rein in a president's ability to sdee employ u.s. troops on american soil. we'll talk about their push too reform the centuries old

provision known as the insurrection act. that is straight ahead on "morning joe." act that is straight ahead on "morning joe."

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sitting on a goldmine. call coventry direct today at the number on your screen, or visit coventrydirect.com. welcome back to "morning joe". it is 34 past the hour. a bipartisan group of former senior national security and legal officials is asking lawmakers to consider imposing new limits on a president's power to deploy troops on home soil. arguing the centuries old insurrection act gives any president too much unchecked power. joining us now, harvard law

school professor jack goldsmith and also bob bower, co-chairs of the presidential reform project. we'll start in order. jack, i'll start with you, professor. explain what the insurrection act is and what your concerns are, what are the problems with it. >> the insurrection act is a statute that dates back to the 1790s. it exercises -- gives the president a power that is contemplated by the constitution to use the militia and armed forces in the domestic sphere in cases of insurrection, rebellion and extreme breakdowns of law enforcement. and extreme violence. the problem -- and the statute has been amended many times. the essential problem with the statute is there is a need for the president to have this authority in extreme cases. the essential problem with the statute is that the trig hes for the president's use of the authority are much too broad and used antiquated language.

and most importantly, there is no limit on the president's ability to use the power. congress is basically out of game. and so we proposed -- our bipartisan group proposed a set of reforms to try to change those things, to narrow the uses of the statute and make sure there is a time limit on the use without congressional authorization. >> and so bob, we know that former president trump has talked about using the national guard, using troops to fight crime for example, to squash dissent. and so what is the timing for you all of coming out with these proposed amendments to the current law? >> it is a bipartisan effort. and it recognizes that whoever controls the white house could be in a position to make misuse or abuse of the statute. no question obviously that some of the reports about considerations of the use of the insurrection act in the trump administration have focused attention on this statute. our emphasis is on trying now to

deal with something that is now drawing the attention and to do so in a bipartisan way. this statute on the books is a temptation to abuse for any president, that donald trump of course has brought a lot of attention to it, and i think appropriately so that we now pay attention to it, does not mean that we should not consider this a broad problem about the absence of constraints on very serious potential abuses of presidential authority. >> so what role were this to go forward would the supreme court play and particularly a court with its current composition? >> well, the insurrection act does not stressly provide for judicial review. but we believe there would be some form of judicial rule. precedence suggests that the court will give deference to the president's use. so while the courts and the

supreme court has some role, this is ultimately about the political branches and about congress constraining the president. >> hey bob, this is john heilemann here. let me go back to the comment you just made which is that of course the context is we heard about trump thinking about the insurrection act on multiple occasions in the course of his presidency, but focus on one of them and tell me whether or not the reforms you are proposing how they would have impacted the situation which is when he talked about invoking the insurrection act in the wake of the civil unrest after the george floyd murder right out in front of the white house when he ultimately held up the bible. the changes you are proposings, would that have made it impossible for him to do, or put limitations? what in that not hypothetical

scenario be the impact of the changes you are suggesting? >> the key issue is accountability. that the president has to under much more sharply defined terms invoke clear authority to use the act and then a consultation congress, results to the wrong and need to the authorization for president wants to go beyond those limits. right now none of those kinds of requirements or costraints are built into the statute. so it would face much higher bars and significantly more accountability that currently absent from the law. >> all right. jack and bob, thank you both very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. and still ahead on "morning joe," we continue to cover the clown show on capitol hill, marjorie taylor greene threatens speaker mike johnson's job. the question is could we be

speakerless again. and also ahead, getting insight on what undecided voters in key battleground states are really thinking. we'll break down what a new survey shows ahead of the crucial 2024 election. plus democratic congressman josh gottheimer of new jersey will join us fresh from his visit to qatar and egypt where he spent time with lead negotiators working day and night to bring israeli hostages home. also ahead we'll speak with arizona's attorney general kris maye scht as the fallout continues following the state supreme court abortion ruling. s supreme court abortion ruling.

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her uncle's unhappy. with an aarp medicare supplement plan i'm sensing an underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene of georgia is ramping up her threats to oust house speaker

mike johnson from his post. she slams the speaker over last month's government funding fight and his plans to address aid for ukraine. she writes, that johnson's actions have "angered the republican base so much and given them very little reason to vote for a republican house majority. if we win the house this fall, it will only be because president trump is on the ballot, not because we have earned it." last month green filed a resolution to remove johnson from house speaker but said it was merely a warning. but we've seen this happen before. john heilemann, i'm -- i mean, she is -- i don't know. just as an american, she's embarrassing to me so so many levels. but in terms of aid to ukraine, what the heck? i mean, how long are ukrainians going to have to wait for something that you would think a true republican would be for when it comes to our national security? >> i've given up making

predictions about when the republican party will do what the old republican party used to do or when the republican party will get its stuff together and behave like a governing majority or a governing minority or anything else. i will say this, the notion that this inexperienced speaker who got inasmuch by fluke in the fact that the republican party couldn't figure out anybody else to put in this job after the fall of kevin mccarthy, the fact that this -- we would get here where his speakership would be imperiled and people on his right flank would be talking about wanting to oust him and do to him what they did to kevin mccarthy is like the least surprising piece of political news in the history of the world. i think you could have seen this coming from -- and people predicted it from the day that he won the speakership. people thought that this was in the offing at some point. and whatever you think about this guy, he is not experienced, did not have the kind of experience in the lower chamber,

or political savvy that seemed like he could navigate what is genuinely a difficult circumstance given the nature of the republican caucus. so here we are and unfortunately, this is a place where litter lives are are on the line and they will pay the cost of the republican dysfunction. >> and what a commentary on the state of the republican party. marjorie taylor greene from a small district who appears to be running the show on behalf of donald trump. and her complaint in that letter where she said she will not toll tolerate this type of leadership. and that he is looking across the aisle to get legislation passed. >> and this is what they have been saying for months, marjorie taylor greene is the power source in the lower chamber.

and some are retiring and giving up their posts because they don't want to do this anymore. and look, our friends at punch bowl news who are as plugged in as anyone on the hill, their newsletter this morning suggests it is a binary choice for speaker johnson. he either does ukraine aid or keeps his job. he doesn't to both. if he is going to try to bring the package to the floor, whether the senate bill which most think would pass and has the best chance of success here and sending the aid to kyiv or creating his own measure, but if he were to do either, he would lose his job. he'd be ousted. but the only thing that could potentially save him is so many republicans remember the chaos of october when mccarthy was par the party. and they don't have anyone else who could step up in that position. but this is an extremely

important moment for not only the house but also future aid to ukraine. so many european leaders are warning if the u.s. doesn't step up, ukraine could really fall on hard times in that war. >> yeah, they have been waiting too long. and coming up, former president trump yet again repeats anti-semitic trope about american jews who vote for democrats. plus president biden calls israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu's handling of the war in gaza a mistake. we'll show you his new comments. "morning joe" is coming right back. ments. "morning joe" is coming right back

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53 past the hour. vice president kamala harris met

with the families of israeli-american hostages yesterday. harris reassured them that the biden administration is focused on securing the release of the more than 130 people still being held captive in gaza. the family members thanked the white house for its efforts and called on both sides to agree to a deal. >> we have just come out of a very productive meeting with vice president harris, who carved out time to meet with us hostage families. we're very grateful for that. we discussed a lot of different things and one of the things we talked about is that there is a possibility of holding two truths. you can believe, as we do, that it is horrible, that innocent civilians in gaza are suffering, and at the same time, you can also know that it is horrible and against international law for hostages to be held against

their will. there are 133 cherished souls who are being held there and it is time. we don't want anymore progress. we want results. >> jonathan lemire, that's rachel goldberg, the mother of a young man named hirsch being hold as one of the hostages inside gaza. we had her on the show a few days ago, and she was rightly outraged that there wasn't more of an emphasis in that phone call on thursday between president biden and netanyahu. >> they were viscerally angry. there was a fury there in the aftermath of that conversation between president biden and prime minister netanyahu last week, where biden used tough language and pushed netanyahu to make changes, and they have opened up new path to aid in gaza, but the hostages weren't at the forefront of that conversation. they were discussed, but not at

the forefront. and there was real anger that they weren't. there have been more negotiations over the last few days in cairo. some optimism from israeli officials that a deal could be close. but talks then stopped without one. hamas still says they're considering this proposal. they haven't given their final answer yet. we'll see what the coming days hold. but right now, we've been here before. there have been a few moments where negotiations seem close and fallen apart. we're still awaiting that breakthrough. >> and then there's this on the question of israel. donald trump says, any jewish person who votes for joe biden does not love israel, and quote, should be spoken to. those are the words of donald trump. the presumptive 2024 republican nominee made those comments during an interview with a far-right network on monday. he then went on to offer an opinion about why he thinks jewish and black americans historically have voted for democrats. >> they don't want to talk about the attack of october 7th on israel, because biden is no fan of israel. any jewish person that votes for

biden does not love israel. and frankly, should be spoken to. jewish people by habit -- >> and it's changing. >> they vote for the democrats. and black people by habit vote for the democrats. but now, the african-american population is -- we're at the highest level anyone's ever been at as a republican. it still should be much higher because of what i've done with criminal justice reform, with funding the black colleges and university, with all of the opportunity, nobody's done more than i have. i say nobody's done more since abraham lincoln. i actually wanted to go beyond abraham lincoln, but some people thought that wasn't a good thing to do, so i left it at that. >> trump made similar comments about jewish democrats last month, saying they, quote, hate israel and their religion. in february, he claimed black voters were flocking to him because they related to him being criminally indicted and quote, embraced his mug shot

more than any group. let's bring in the president of the national action network, the host of msnbc's "politics nation," reverend al sharpton, nbc news and msnbc political analyst, former u.s. senator, claire mccas kyl. she and jen palmieri are cohost of the msnbc podcast, "how to win 2024," and the deputy managing editor for politics at politico, sam stein. good morning to you all. rev, i'll start with you. a lot to chew on in those comments. sadly, it's nothing new for donald trump. we've heard this before. we've heard what i just said, which is, he believes black voters relate to him because of the mug shot. they think he likes the sneakers that are $400 that he put out there. just trafficking in all kinds of stereotypes on that side. and on the other side, suggesting you're not really jewish if you vote democrat and you hate israel. i'll hope it up to you, rev. >> well, there's a lot to chew on, if you're going to spit it out, in my opinion, after you chew. even in his condescending, and

insulting statement, he can't help but offend black americans, when at the end of his statements, he said, i could have done more than abraham lincoln, but a lot of people thought it wasn't good. what is that supposed to mean? who are "a lot of other people," and "what other good." let's remember, we did get the civil rights act of '64 under lyndon johnson and the '65 civil rights act of '65 under johnson. both of which donald trump's appointed supreme court has done to chip away. what they've done to the voting rights bill in this supreme court has just about neutralized it. and he put those people on the court. he has supported including now with abortion, state's rights, which the whole civil war and civil rights movement was about. what did he do for black americans? i think joe biden has given as much or more to hbcus, if that's

what he's saying. and criminal justice reform, i think it was joe biden that said, support the george floyd justice and politician act, and when the republicans blocked it, he went ahead and did an executive order. donald trump was saying, when we were protesting around george floyd, when the looting starts, the shooting starts, rather than, yes, this is a shame, what happened to floyd, and we need to deal with police reform, as part of criminal justice reform. so again, i think that not only does he miss the runway, he missed the airport when it comes to decency and civil rights. >> sam stein, two threads for you. once we know the, trump campaign openly talks about their efforts to win over black voters, they think they're having success there. do we think that's real and will persist between now and november? also, just feel free to weigh in on the blatant antisemitichl from trump again, who suggests

that if you were a jewish person and were to vote for a democrat, then you don't love israel or your own faith. >> well, i'll start with the last one, first. we've been here, before, i believe, you and i were having an exact conversation on your show a month ago after the almost verbatim remarks. at this point, it's terribly unsurprising that he says these things, and a complete over-generalization of how jewish americans should think, how they should kentucky their religion, how they should vote, the idea that if you're jewish, you must support the government of israel, which is what he's really saying, is absurd. and of course, the association that every jew must be a fan of the israeli government is -- reeks of the type of anti-semitism that you're talking about. dual loyalty, a phrase he talked about in a past context, too. on your first question, that's a much more complex one. it's undeniable that trump has

gained a significant amount in the polls with african-american voters. it's just true. why that is the case and whether it persists is another question entirely. the trump campaign hasn't done necessarily the type of gritty work that you would expect a campaign to do to win these voters. it's not like they're doing an immense amount of outreach or targeted advertising. it's plainly that they're just saying that joe biden is bad, and we did, you know, "x," "y," and "z" and in this case trump is pointing to the first step act and opportunity zones. i don't know how much that persists. but i will just say the thing that you should note is that it's not necessarily universal. it's much more generational. so older black voters tend to be consistently more democratic now than younger black voters. and the reasons why are being, you know, studied, aggressively by the biden campaign, because they need to reach that pop populous

if they want to win. >> president biden is ramping up his criticism of israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu, calling his handling of the war in gaza a mistake. the president made the comments in a pre-taped interview with univision and condemned the israeli strikes that killed seven world central kitchen aid workers. take a listen. >> what i will tell you, i think what he's doing is a mistake. i don't agree with his -- i think it's outrageous that those four or three vehicles were hit by drones and taken out on a highway, where it wasn't like it was along the shore. it wasn't like it was a convoy moving or et cetera. so what i'm calling for is for the israelis to just call for a cease-fire, allow for the next six to eight weeks, total access to all food and medicine going into the country. >> meanwhile, "new york times"

columnist brett steven is out with a new piece in which he says israel must destroy hamas, do what it can to rescue hostages, and push hezbollah back from lebanon's southern border. but for all of that to happen effectively, he says benjamin netanyahu must go. and he writes in part this. i've written versions of this column before, netanyahu's disastrous engagement with hamas before it carried out the october 7th massacre and his conduct of the war since have made it vital. the need was again made painfully obvious last thursday, when nir barkat, a center-right israeli minister and former jerusalem mayor got destroyed on msnbc's "morning joe." barkat is a courageous and decent man that could be a credible future prime minister, but he crumbled when the program's host joe scarborough challenged him to simply explain netanyahu's policies before october 7th.

why, to paraphrase scarborough and his co-hosts, was netanyahu asking qatar to fund hamas to the tune of hundreds of millions just weeks before the massacre? why was the bulk of israeli military nowhere near gaza in the first hours of the attack? why does the israeli government have such fumbling answers when it comes to legitimate humanitarian needs in gaza? i hope barkat reflects on his "morning joe" embarrassment and asks whether sticking by his party's leader is a price he's willing to pay. i hope other senior members in israeli's government also consider their sense of national responsibility, above their political positions. israel cannot afford to lose this war. but it needs to lose a leader who isn't winning it. and so, there's a lot to talk about here, claire. and i think we heard it best

earlier in the show from one of the hostages' mother. the hostage's name is hirsch. and his mother talked after meeting with the vice president yesterday, at the white house about two truths. that civilians are being slaughtered and that's terrible. and hostages are being held and the october 7th massacre was also terrible. it is okay for both of those things to be true. i think what people are now getting frustrated about, and you see it in the piece i just read, is that it's time to act on those two truths. yeah, let's be honest about what's going on here. netanyahu is a one-man wrecking crew for israel's national security. and i say that because he is destroying the support for israel around the world. and you know, if you've been to

israel and you spent time there, it's a small country. and it's been surrounded by dangerous neighbors for its entire existence. and it has survived for a number of reasons. but one of them is, it's had such broad international support. it's had really good friends among democracies in the world. among people who love freedom in the world, chief among them the united states and europe. what netanyahu is doing is he is brick by brick destroying that wall of support, because he is more worried about his political future than he is the future of israel. because israel, yes, it has to win the war, and yes, you can have two things be true at the same time. what hamas did was unspeakable, of course they should be destroyed. but it also is unspeakable that you can have the exact ability to take out an iranian leader in an embassy in damascus, with a

drone, and then somehow kill aid workers. and somehow, well, we just don't know how that happened. it was terrible, we're sorry. so how they're prosecuting this war has become a huge problem for israel, and i think, you know, what the president said about jewish people and their faith is disgusting. i have so many jewish friends, including some family members, that care very deeply about their faith and care very deeply about the success of israel and maintaining a strong hold for the jewish faith. but they also are very upset with the tens of thousands of innocent children and civilians that are being slaughtered. >> yeah, there's too many times in which the israeli government, the netanyahu government is saying, we will answer that later. we first have to win the war. it's -- the trust is being lost,

step by step, day by day. claire, while i have you here with our panel, i want to get to our other top story this hour. and that is out of the state of arizona, where the supreme court there upheld a 160-year-old law that bans nearly all abortions in the state. nbc news senior legal correspondent laura jarrett has the details. >> reporter: a legal fight over abortion in a criminal battleground state, fanning the flames of a political fire gaining ground towards november. arizona's highest court backing a law that bans nearly all abortions and carries up to five years in prison for doctors who perform one. the conservative majority on the court reviving an 1864 law, that laid dormant for decades under roe v. wade >> are you kidding me quality 1864 was before women even had the right to vote. we are totally going backwards. >> reporter: 66-year-old arizona resident beth bauman, fighting back tears.

>> i'm -- i'm devastated. i just, i didn't think that they would do this. i really didn't. >> reporter: yet the state's democratic attorney general says that she won't enforce the law. >> it is one of the worst decisions in the history of the arizona supreme court. no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law. i will fight like hell. >> reporter: some reassurance in a time of uncertainty, says dr. gabrielle goodrich, who's practiced in the state for over two decades. >> i don't know what the law will be. it is so early to know how that's going to play out. >> is today's decision a win for your side? >> it is. >> reporter: the advocacy group alliance defending freedom says the existing 15-week law doesn't go far enough, and even if the state ag won't enforce a stricter ban, other prosecutors still can. >> it's our position that county attorneys have the authority to

enforce the law. >> reporter: this latest court fight over abortion only raising the political stakes in an election year. arizona, long a republican stronghold, now the latest state on track to get a constitutional amendment on the november ballot, creating a fundamental right to abortion, if it passes. the vice president also planning to travel to the state for events friday. >> you look in state after state where they're passing these abortion bans, and the majority of the legislators doing it are men, telling women what to do with their body. and i've kind of had it with that. >> reporter: while the former president and many gop lawmakers continue to avoid talk of a national abortion ban. instead, backing state-level restrictions. >> some states are taking conservative views and some are lesser conservative, but it's back with the states, it's back with the people. >> the supreme court has turned it back over to voters. we've got to let voters sort through this. >> nbc's laura jarrett with that

report. claire, i'm glad to see kamala harris on the front lines of this. i'm glad she's going to arizona. in the short-term, if this law goes into effect, which i think it has a few steps, still, legally, to muddle through, it will cause immense pain, suffering, trauma, sterilization, bleeding out for countless women in the state of arizona. the short-term is a disastrous picture for women. politically, the long-term, i'm wondering how this plays out, because it doesn't -- it seems like donald trump has self-destructed again. >> yeah, here's the thing. i want to make sure that we do not let trump get away with somehow modifying his position. it was frustrating to me to watch network after network

report as if it was fact that donald trump now thinks that there should not be a national ban. i don't believe it! i don't believe it! just like kari lake. kari lake ten minutes ago said, this was a great law. these folks have one goal. and that is to make sure government decides what women do when they are faced with a health decision. government is in the bedroom, and these people want them there. give me a break, josh hawley's wife is in front of the supreme court trying to make sure that medical abortions are not legal anywhere, ever, in the country. him and his family are doing that. they're not letting the voters decide! they're trying to get the courts to decide! if they wanted the voters to decide, then why isn't josh hawley out here helping people get the initiative position on the ballot in missouri.

instead, the republicans are fighting getting these issues on the ballot. they don't want voter to decide. and you know -- you know what we're spending time talking about this morning, mika? think about this. we're talking about the insurrection act. we're talking about an abortion law that was passed before women could vote. we're talking now about the comstack act. what is happening to this country? what is happening to the progress we made around freedom and quality. now we're going back to the dark ages. there's a pattern here. people need to pay attention and not listen to anybody who says that donald trump has softened his position on abortion. bs. >> for sure. >> in fact, in this case, set back 160 years, sam stein, to a territorial law put in place by a judge appointed by abraham lincoln. that should put it into perspective for you. sam, let's talk about what this means politically. we've been talking about the legal consequences, the consequences for women in the state of arizona.

there has been some chatter in the last 12 to 24 hours about arizona being in play, seen as a difficult state this time around, perhaps, for the biden campaign, if you look at the polling, but there is some enthusiasm this morning from democrats about flipping the state or holding on to the state, i should say. >> yeah, i feel like this has a huge, huge development from a political perspective. i think to your point, like, there's something just valsly shocking about saying, oh, we're going to go back to an 1864 law. it's hard to even articulate that that's the law that's now on the books. but beyond that, it's, you know, look, florida is a good template here to compare to arizona. florida has a six-week ban. they will also have a ballot measure in november to consider whether it's a constitutional right, a state constitutional right to have an abortion. that was considered a huge deal,

and that was about a week or two ago. that's not a swing state, necessarily. really isn't. arizona goes further. it's not even six weeks. you will have a measure on the ballot, and it legitimately is a swing state in the presidential election, and then you have one of the more higher profile senate races in the country as well. i think if you look across the spectrum, this is doing, you know, exactly what democrats -- i mean, not on a policy measure, on a political measure, exactly what they wanted. they wanted to have a conversation and a debate, and an ump us the for voters to go to the polls, centered around abortion. and this is what worked in 2022. this is what they're banking on in 2024. obviously, they would rather have the right to an abortion than have to debate it on the merits. but from a political standpoint, this is a monumental development. >> to your point, sam, just to crystallize, i know that you believe that women should have a

right to access to abortion health care, on a policy level, this is horrendous. this is absolutely horrendous, what's happening. the question is, do we need to hit rock bottom to realize what's happening here? that's going to be the question in this 2024 election. still ahead on "morning joe," battleground states will ultimately decide the 2024 election and one voting bloc will be especially critical. those still undecide. we're going to hear from some of those undecided voters next. it is fascinating. you won't want to miss this. it is fascinating. you won't want to miss this.

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welcome back. 22 past the hour. a new survey delves into the views of undecided voters in key battleground states ahead of the november election. wick insights asked undecided voters in pennsylvania, michigan, and wisconsin their views on a number of critical issues. on abortion, voters were asked, whose policies most closely matched their views? these undecideds were nearly 22% more likely to say president biden's abortion policies aligned with their own. on who better understands their daily challenges, these undecideds were 5% more likely

to say biden does. but when it comes to their finances, these undecided voters were 9% more likely to say donald trump is better for their bottom line. a lot to go through here. joining us now, the ceo and founder of wic insights, david burrell. so how do we know these voters are truly undecided? explain who was polled, how they were polled, and what is distinctive about this demographic? >> thank you, mika. yeah, this is definitely a treat to be on here. and you know, when actually mark halperin called me a couple of months ago and said, we'll hear so much this election cycle about the masses on both of the political sides, the 150 million people who are going to vote, but really the story of the election is about, you know, less than 5% of that or at least the definitive story of who's going to win the election. and so, we said, hey, we want to figure out a way to bring these voices out. because largely, we were always

left in the dark on them. so we went through a process of putting a plan together, not just to say, hey, can we find these people, find these undecided voters. can we also survey them and invite a good mix of them to participate in our focus groups? so we started that process about two weeks ago. and have been really happy with, you know, our ability to bring those voices out on a program like and for you to kind of get these previously unheard of opinions out to the people. >> so, before we show that, what was the like overall one-line bad news for biden? >> i would say bad news for biden was definitely the economy and the border, which i think isn't all that surprising or different than what you might even hear about the electorate in general. but even when you look at -- i know you mentioned personal family finances, that is more of a combination of, you know, yes, the economy, but also, health care and entitlement programs and all of these other type of

factors that go into it. even though trump was performing better there, it wasn't as stark as the economy in general. when you look at the economy specifically, it was not good. >> yeah. no, we're going to show in the focus group, and really spell it out, because it's fascinating. where does president joe biden perform well? >> as you mentioned, he performed well on abortion, and if you look at biden, and also the democrats as a whole when we say, who do you trust on these issues, it was very stark on a number of issues, whether it was climate, education, health care and federal programs. all of those issues, when we did the polling, and some of that we saw in the focus group, biden was certainly outperforming trump on those. >> i want take a look at the focus group that your firm conducted, because i think hearing from these types of voters really crystallizes what you're talking about here. your firm conducted the group along with the interactive video

platform, 2-way. and it's made up of undecided voters, as we've been saying from the three great lakes battlegrounds, michigan, wisconsin, and pennsylvania. states that were narrowly swept by donald trump in 2016, and by joe biden in 2020. so here are the answers when asked what the best argument is for giving president biden another term. take a look. >> i agree with his stance on abortion. for me, that's probably the only positive i have right now. >> what do other people think? what do you see as the best argument for another term for president biden? >> i agree with janet, that's the only positive thing i've got going for him. >> he definitely shows more care towards disenfranchised people. he's not like the, you're on your own, and we should be supporting people who need support and it should be a collective good sort of thing. and i think, you know, he's not

a socialist, but biden definitely represents that. >> i like what he did with loan forgiveness for college students, with their debt for loans from college. i think that was something positive he was trying to do. >> i think he's doing well with the carbon credits. and the environmental issues. >> i think he represents something of a safe status quo choice, if that's a good thing or not, i'm not really certain. >> david, is to bottom line here, he's not trump? there were so many different answers. what was your takeaway? >> yeah, i think that one of the fanatic things on those answers as well as some of the other things we saw in the focus group was that no one on -- in that focus group liked the way trump presented himself. so you heard a little bit of that, people relating more to him, numerous different words were used on it. but, yeah, on the issues, it was across the board, but on some of those, we talked about, we saw

that in the survey, too. we had abortion and climate change. but certainly, i think thematically, not trump, definitely from a standpoint, was something that was threaded through the whole group. >> i want to show two more. the undecided voters were also asked how they think that president biden was doing on the economy. take a listen. >> i think he's been absolutely disastrous for the economy. >> i agree. >> he thinks president trump's policies would be better for your family personally, raise your hand? so that is everybody. president biden arguing that his economic record has been very good, that president trump use was not as good. what are you keying off. shaun, what are you keying off of to say that president trump's economic policies would be better for your family? >> my past performance of my 401(k). i know it was post-2020 and

everything kind of flipped around, but you can't blame everything on 2020 forever. >> we have areas here in pennsylvania where it's just at a standstill right now. like, things are supposed to be being built and the interest rates are just way too high for people to, you know, invest and start moving around. >> and virginia, just staying with you, because pennsylvania is near and dear to joe biden's heart, are there biden policies that you would blame for the problem? and if so, what are they? >> the interest rate is so high right now, and i know they're trying to cut the inflation down, but like, if nobody is building, no businesses are really coming to pennsylvania right now to keep us moving forward. >> even if you're trying to buy a house, because i'm trying to become a first-time home buyer with, the prices are so high right now. it's just hard. >> is there anything joe biden could do or say between now and the time you vote that would make you feel differently about feeling that his policies would not be as good for your families

on the economy? or have you pretty much decided that trump's policies would be better for the economy? >> i mean, i feel like he doesn't even take accountability at all with what's going on. not even accountability. he's in denial that it's happening. >> the point is, biden needs to hear the people, because when he's talking about the economy doing stellar, he's talking about the stock market. he's not looking at joblessness, not thug about how much it costs to go to the grocery store. and he's gaslighting literally everyone in the process. >> and omar, you voted for joe biden last time, right? >> yeah, yeah. >> some really important and hard insights for the biden campaign to hear there and hearing all of that, you might think things are pretty bad for president biden. that was not good. but trump may actually be the antidote. listen to their thoughs about donald trump now, the undecideds. >> i just think donald trump is mean. he's a bully and i think -- i think his policies are solid. i pretty much agree with most of

them, i just don't like him as a landlord. >> i don't think he does a lot to try to bring groups together. when he ran the last time, our country became so divided. i don't know if it's anything particular about what he said or did, but our country really picked sides on this. >> i feel like people forget about that. it's like, trump is so volatile. and not only internal strife and conflict, but, you know, i don't feel comfortable with him calling someone with nukes rocketmen. >> and i think so much behind social media. just get your fingers off of the phone! >> yeah, he definitely -- >> yeah -- >> it's a situation that went on at the capitol for me that got really out of control. it makes you wonder, if he's back fl, what -- anything could happen! >> i feel like if trump just shut his mouth and just did his

policy and his work, i would say, yes, please come back. if he just learns to keep his mouth closed, don't make comments about people he might not necessarily like that much and be a strong leader and do his job. >> the divisiveness that he caused in the country is like the big, big problem. his policies could be great, but that almost undermines that all. >> his position differs based on his audience. and i mean, as a politician, that's a great skill to have, but it just makes him so untrustworthy to anybody who's paying attention that that just seems entirely disingenuous. >> i think that right there is where trump's changing or so-called changing opinions on abortion is falling flat, to an extent. what we're seeing hear with these important voting block, these undecided, trump is trauma, chaos, fear of the future. biden, not so bad. david, you say there's opportunity for the biden campaign to bring many of these

undecided voters home. how? explain that? >> well, i think there's a couple of things we saw, even in the survey, when you look at the breakdown of this group of undecided in these states. compared to -- i mean, compared to trump, more voted for biden in 2020. so, you know, oftentimes, when you look at these undecided voters or swing voters, you kind of look at who they voted for last time, and oftentimes, we kind of say, they end up coming home. so i think there's an opportunity there. but at the same time, when you look at the -- on the economic side of things, i think, you know, one of the big takeaways for me and we see it also in the survey and in the focus group is that, you know, the messaging on the economy is -- it conflicts. there are campaigns meshing that certainly are conflicting with what people are feeling. so i think that's something that there's opportunity to maybe

connect a little differently will. and focus on some of the strengths that help your family finances. >> wic inside ceo and founder david burrell, thank you very much. let's go to our panel now, claire, i'll start with you. i thought that these focus groups were fascinating, especially on biden and the economy. there is work to be done there because the economy has so much to brag on in terms of what this president has done, in his presidency. he's made history. he's passed more legislation than any -- you can do that list, but that's not connecting with how the undecided or any voter is feeling in their day-to-day life. i thought the focus group really brought that home. >> there's a tendency in the white house to get insulated and see the data. and they have every reason to be proud. i mean, this president has created more jobs, i think, than any president history.

the unemployment numbers are great, the inflation has been cut in half. but you've got to meet voters where they are, mika. you can't just spout data. you've got to meet them where they are. and you know where they are? they are looking at their car insurance premiums going up. they're looking at groceries remaining unbelievably high. and they're looking at gas. >> and they can't get a house. >> and they can't get a house, because of the high interest rates. they cannot -- there's no mobility, because of the high interest rates. and that's what voters are. so, joe biden needs to quit trying to convince everybody you're great and meet them where they are, and feel their pain, and talk about solutions, especially in a contrast to what trump is going to do, which is basically do what he did the last time, which is only about taking care of the very tippy top. the 1% at the top. that's not going to help him. i think he needs to quit trying

to say how great it is. he's not going to convince people as long as they can't afford to buy a house and can't afford their insurance premiums. >> reverend sharpton, one person who agrees with claire that the president should focus on costs is his former chief of staff, ron klain. our friend, eugene daniels broke this story for politico last night. klain was at an event, audio was sent to eugene about klain saying, look, the president is spending too much time talking about things like infrastructure. he needs to spend more time talking about -- focusing on getting costs down, and klain in an interview later said, i stand by both things. you need to focus on cost. let's get your thoughts on what klain said, but also what you heard from that focus group. >> i think klain is right. sometimes we can be so broad in terms of our political discussion, the president and the people that are working with him on the west wing that are dealing with the broader picture, but people live in specifics. their bills, their ability to

pay the rent or the mortgage. their ability to buy the bread. so they don't really know the unemployment data. they don't really know the inflation data. they know what they live. and i think they have to -- the president has to focus on both of the general and the specific at the same time. and i think that that is part of what i saw from this focus group. at the end of the day, donald trump is his own worst enemy, because where he scores, in my opinion, undeservedly, in some areas, he undermines it all by all of them saying, the way he acts, the way he behaves, how devivus he is. how destructive he's been in terms of dividing the country. and i think he has become his own worst enemy. if i was the president and worked on their campaign, i would say deal specifically with the needs of the people on the ground, and then let donald be donald, because donald will undo

donald. >> all right, let's bring into the conversation, the co-chair of the house problem solvers, josh gottheimer of new jersey. he recently returned from high-level meetings with officials in the middle east focused on freeing the israeli hostages from gaza. thanks so much for being here with us. you were in egypt, you were in qatar. we had just a couple of days ago, the parents of hirsch, rachael goldberg we saw on the show, and the agony that they've been suffering through for the last six months. their desperation to get their loved ones home. what more can you tell us about this negotiation and any slivers of hope? >> well, i'm seeing in a couple of hours and spoke to last night, the alexander family whose son was from my district in new jersey. they haven't seen or spoken to their son in six months. the pain is unimaginable, but they remain hopeful and so do i. we've got to do everything. and this was the focus of my trip to qatar and egypt, meeting

with the lead negotiates on both sides with and obviously with our officials on the ground, to focus on how do we make sure we get these hostages home. the americans remain hostages. as we know, 40 americans were killed. we don't talk enough in my opinion about getting those hostages home and doing everything we can to do that. and that is the top aboutive of all of these negotiations. how do we get these hostages home, and humanitarian aid into the region, and stop hamas from fire rockets at israel and make sure that we significantly crush hamas. >> congressman, when we talk privately, even off the air to the parents of hostages and you talk to israeli officials, they can see that the hostage crisis is something of a black box. they don't know exactly how many of them are still alive. they don't know where they are. they don't know how they're being treated. is there any hope that you can offer that someone, somewhere along this chain, does know that information, and that they do have hope that there is way, one way or another, whether it's

rescue, or negotiation, to get the hostages out of gaza. >> well, i think hamas understands that that is their leverage here. they need to have these hostages alive. but you're right, there's not a lot of information. i'll tell you what i spoke to up close, speaking to the hostage negotiators, while i was at a dinner in egypt with the lead negotiators on the egyptian side, they left twice to speak to hamas officials, to try figure out if we can make progress towards that deal. we saw the cia director in there this weekend. you saw the secretary of state, talk hopefully yesterday and now the ball is in hamas' court. it all comes back to making sure we get these hostages out. and they're working around the clock to get this deal done. but time is not favorable. and the bottom line is, i can't imagine what these families are going through, not knowing. right, the red cross has not been allowed to check on their family members. we know there's been sexual

abuse and violence with some who were released early on. so it's unimaginable what's going on with these hostages, including the american hostages and others. and i think we've got to do everything we can, everything, to get these hostages home. >> congressman, sam stein here, i want to broaden out a little bit tube the overall conduct of the war, president biden in a univision interview called the netanyahu government's actions a mistake, referring to, i think, specifically, how it is not allowing humanitarian aid into gaza. obviously, an immense about of criticism over the targeting of these world food kitchen workers. we've seen some movement, i believe, by the israeli forces since then. but i'm curious, do you share the administration's view that the netanyahu government can and should be doing more? and secondarily, senator schumer the other day says he wants new elections in israel. do you believe that benjamin netanyahu's government has been prosecuting this war in an

effective and strategic manner? >> whatever my feelings are about benjamin netanyahu, i believe that we should not interfere in the elections after key democratic ally. i'll leave that to them. i'll tell you that what you have seen, even in the last day, i think a record number of aid trucks getting into gaza yesterday. i think that's all very positive. we also see, and you know this, we see that of course hamas continues to use innocent palestinians as human shields. they, today, could surrender, he could let the hostages go today. let's not forget, i don't know if you saw the comments of secretary blinken, he said, where's the outrage here. let's not forget that the ball is in hamas' court. they're the ones that attacked, and they butchered, decapitated, rips babies out of wombs and burned babies alive, we saw on october 7th. minimum point is, we shouldn't lose sight of that. we should do everything we can, and the goal has to be focused on getting the hostages out, getting that temporary pause, so

we can get more humanitarian aid into the region, which is critical, and crush hamas, which, by the way, hates america as much or more than they hate israel, as do all of these other meridian proxies in the region, who continue to fire rockets at us and the united states, in the red sea with the houthis, while hezbollah continues to fire into israel, we know, palestinians islamic jihad continues to take action. so let's not lose sight whether it's iraq or syria or american service members who are killed. let's not lose fact of the fact that they continue to attack us as well as israel. we have to make sure we keep stability in the region, but our goals are clear, to make sure that we get those hostages out, more humanitarian aid in, and i'm very glad to see that more is getting into the region, even in the last days. >> and i know the families of those hostages appreciate your keeping the pressure on this conversation. the co-chair of the problem solvers caucus, thanks for your time this morning. appreciate it. >> thanks for having me.

secretary of state antony blinken held a joint press conference with british foreign secretary david cameron at the state department yesterday. they discussed the latest from the middle east, urging congress also to pass additional funding for ukraine. and secretary cameron joins us now. mr. secretary, good morning. why don't we start there, our conversation with the congressman about israel. it's good to see you this morning. how do you see this war right now being prosecuted by prime minister netanyahu, by the idf, in terms of the balance between uprooting hamas' stated goal, getting the hostages out, but also taking care of the humanitarian crisis that has now been inflicted upon gaza. >> well, we support israel's right to self-defense, and i think the congressman you just had on was right to say that we should remember what happened on october the 7th. but we do think that israel must prosecute this war according to rules of humanitarian law.

and i think that's very important. i think what's happened in recent days, and all credit to president biden for the call he had with netanyahu, what's happened in terms of getting more aid into gaza, and getting those promises out of the israelis, i think that could be transformational. yesterday, we had plastic surgeon 400 trucks go in. we need more aid. we need to avoid a famine in gaza. but of course, we should continue to support the idea that hamas leaders cannot stay in gaza. we cannot expect israel toly next to a terrorist state. that's what we've got to get right. >> mr. foreign secretary, good to see you this morning. let's turn to ukraine. you obviously are in washington trying to push u.s. allies to support kyiv in a moment where russia seems to have real momentum in the war. but house speaker mike johnson was not available for a meeting, and he of course, and the gop house, are the biggest obstacle to getting that aid done. tell us what you make of that, how disappointed are you that

you weren't able to make that case in person and how worried are you about the future of this war? >> i had a great meeting with speaker johnson the last time i was here. instead, i've been meeting and will be meeting with party leaders in the house. i met former president trump yesterday. had some great meetings with secretary of state blinken, good call with your national security adviser, jake sullivan. so i'm having some really helpful meetings. and i'm very cautious, because foreign politicians shouldn't come here and lecture people and tell you what to do. that's not what i'm doing at all. i'm really saying, i think there's a real danger to british security, to american security, if we allow putin to win in ukraine. it won't stop with ukraine, and indeed, if worry as i do about the future of china, worry about what iran is doing, all around the world, countries that wish us ill will draw a lesson if we don't stand by ukraine. and my plea really to american

congressman is, you know, this is actually an investment in american security. 90% of what you spend will go into jobs here in america. and you can make the decisive difference in getting ukraine back on the front foot and getting them to make sure putin doesn't win, and we get the just peace that ukraine deserves. and that's the point. this year, in the run-up to november, whoever is president afterwards, no one wants us to be in a situation where putin is winning, ukraine is losing, and we're having to deal with that situation. and we can help right now. >> secretary cameron, i'm curious, we have now had the republican leaders of the armed services committee and the intelligence committee, both, come out publicly, these are house members, and said that putin's propaganda has infected the base of the republican party. and clearly, part of that problem is donald trump. first, the support for ukraine

is waning in this country because of that propaganda. what is donald trump acknowledging to you about the propaganda of putin and how successful it's been? and how are you fighting that same propaganda in europe. because it's a real problem politically for us getting this across the finish line? >> i think as they say, a lie is around the world before the truth can get its boots on. and we need the truth to get its boots on. crimea included, in 1991, to be an independent sovereign country. and we should be supporting that. and obviously, look, the meeting with donald trump was a good meeting, a private meeting. i have to be careful what i say, but fundamentally the point i make is that if we do the right thing here, we can put ukraine back on the front foot, we can put putin on the back foot. the ukrainians are incredibly brave. they've sunk 25% of putin's black sea fleet.

they're shooting their planes out of the sky day after day. they can win this, and when they do, we can get a just peace, have a more stable europe, and that is great news for the united states of america. and so don't listen to putin's lies about ukraine. it is a free democracy that wants to be an independent sovereign country, that wants to be our ally and our friend. and we should be standing by our friends, because the world will be watching if we don't. >> british foreign secretary, david cameron, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> thank you. >> we appreciate it. >> coming up, steven a. smith is sharing his personal journey with mental health in an effort to encourage more open conversations. the espn host joins us live in studio with more on that, next on "morning joe" on that, next on "morning joe"

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i debate all day. that's what i do. but there are some things that are undebatable, like your mental health. i was in a dark place when my brother passed away in a car accident and i was depressed in ways i never imagined, and i reached out to my sisters, my pastor, and a therapists, and when you love your mind you can go so much further. find mental health resources and love your mind today. steven smith is part of a national campaign called love your mind. he's best known for his strong sports takes, but in recent months he has been vocal about his own mental health struggles. he joins us now with the chief executive administrator of the

huntsman. you mentioned about the loss of your brother, and you lost your mom to a long battle of lung cancer, so there's a mixture of trauma and depression that you mentioned. when did you realize you couldn't do this alone and needed help? >> i think the defining moment for me outside of crying every day for about two years and what have you after she passed away and i was sitting at espn, and i was debating at the time, and for 30 seconds, it was dark and i couldn't see him and hear anything, and noticing that, and at times, i know people see me

being demonstrative, and i can be even keel or what have you, but my temper tantrums, and it was getting away from me, and i realized for the first time in my life i did not have control i was accustomed to have, and i came to the conclusion i needed help and needed to talk to somebody about it. >> and that's hitting a wall. it is. you talk the about crying every day, and when you are depressed you have triple regulating your emotions, and i don't know if you said every day, this is not okay, and i was told, that's not okay to be crying every day, and you might want to get help. i appreciate that story because

i think a lot of people can resonate with it. when you are struggling with regulating your emotions and that's a lack of control that needs to be addressed. is that a fair way of putting it? >> without question. without question. with the debates that i do in the business much sports journalism and what have you, i always had control of my emotions. anything i was doing, i knew exactly what i was doing and i didn't care. once my mother passed away, i lost control. you know the difference when you are out of control and outside yourself and you can't regulate your emotions in any way, and dr. smith, we were talking about that minutes ago, and reverend al, we know when we don't have control and i knew at that particular moment something was different about me that never existed before. >> let's take a look at some

alarming statistics on the mental health crisis. 60% of adults in the united states say they have a mental health conditions, and less than half are seeking treatment. black adults are more likely than white adults to report persistent issues, and those are worry some statistics. how concerned are you about that? what is this effort worried trying to accomplish with the numbers? >> we understood, black and brown men don't seek help for various reasons, often times because of stigma, and we want to target the campaign for black and brown men to let them know it's okay.

you might be able to reach out to a friend and your pastor, as he has done, and reach out to mental health providers, but the most important thing is to take care of yourself and to understand that you deserve to be loved. that's what the love your mind campaign is about. it's a love letter from your mind to your body, to prioritize yourself. rev and i know, he has a balance between his mental health and physical health, and both things are important and we want to make sure other people across the country realize this is not just a minute of your time, and it's not even a moment, but this is a movement for better health. >> sometimes your physical can get in shape better than your mental. stephen, talk about how particularly when you look at the data with black men, how

being a high-profile black, and you when i go way back as you say, and i respect a lot of things you have done, but this is at the top of the list. to be a high-profile black man and show this, and we always try to say we can't look weak and we have to fight the man or fight the amass cuelation of our women. talk about what gave you the courage to step out and talking about this, because, you know, this is the kind of stuff we not supposed to talk about in public. >> the interesting thing about it, fairness is a big thing to me, and love matters. the love of my sisters and nieces and nephews, the love of my daughters, that played a significant role. i remember when i went back to work immediately after burying my mother, and i was in

cleveland at the arena for the nba finals, game four, and many came over and gave me a big hug, and when they walked over to me i almost started crying before the game, and i saw you at the airport, and you gave me a hug and said, are you okay? i knew i was not myself. when you are surrounded the people -- listen, i work at walt disney. the one thing i can tell you about walt disney is when you have a family issue, when you have a tragedy, that's when they really rally around you. dave roberts and others, whatever you need. when you saw people around you, and then i'm thinking i talk to millions of people a day, how

fair and accurate am i? how alert and cogent am i in that particular moment? how can i be at my best if i am distracted by all of these emotions, and over the course of time recognizing my responsibility to my loved ones, and the people i work with and for, and along with the audience out there that is depending on me to be in tip shop shape. i knew i was not myself and i felt i was cheating everybody, including myself, to not address this, and i recognized and it crystalized in my mind i was lacking courage and i was exercising courage when i went out there and addressed the issues affecting me emotionally for the betterment of my life. >> thank you for sharing your

story. to learn more, visit loveyourmindtoday.org. you can access free mental health resources. the third hour of "morning joe" starts right now. trump's lawyers, they argued that he can't get a fair trial in manhattan so the judge should postpone the trial indefinitely while they seek a change in venue, and nope, i don't care that all of a sudden your fiance is worried about his allergies, too bad, take a zyrtec and put on the tux. trump's lawyers argued the former president couldn't get a fair trial because the jury pool has been polluted by coverage of trump's other recent cases. members of the jury can't have

seen any news about donald trump's crimes? his crimes are the news. >> yes, there's that. good morning, and welcome to "morning joe." it's wednesday, april 10th. we will have the latest on the hush-money case, which is now days away from jury selection, and an update on trump's classified documents case. also ahead, president biden's new comments on israeli prime minister benjamin netanyahu. they come as vice president kamala harris meets with the families of the hostages still being held by hamas. on capitol hill, mike johnson's speakership hangs in the balance over funding for ukraine as far right republicans are threatening to give him the kevin mccarthy treatment. we have john heilman, and nbc news correspondent, vaughn

hillyard, and former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance is with willie and me. former president trump again took credit for ending roe v. wade and said states should decide their own abortion laws. remember this -- >> many people have asked me what my position is on abortion and abortion rights, especially since i was proudly the person responsible for ending what many be ended roe v. wade. and everybody wanted it so states could determine that, and what they decide must be the law of the land, and in this case the law of the state. >> like yesterday, arizona giving the nation the latest

stark example of the consequences of leaving the issue up to individual states. the arizona supreme court ruled a 160--year-old near total abortion ban still on the books in the state is enforceable. the decision, which should shutter abortion clinics across arizona adds the state to the list of growing places where abortion health care is effectively banned, and it is making abortion a felony, and punishable by 2 to 5 years in prison, and the law existed before arizona was a state.

arizona's attorney general came out against the ban moments after the ruling. >> let me be completely clear, as long as i am attorney general of the state of arizona, no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law. no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this law as long as i am attorney general. not by me nor by any county attorney serving in our state, not on my watch. >> she will be our guest at 9:00 a.m. willie, let's do the math here. monday morning president trump said i am the one that overturned roe v. wade, i am proud of that and, number two, it should be up to the states. and arizona said, okay, hold our

beer. >> yeah, arizona answering the call from former president trump verily there. was said, mika, this is a code written by a judge howl in 1864, and that judge was appointed by abe lincoln, and now here we are in 2024 making this the law of the land according to the supreme court there. the president calling the decision, quote, a result of the extreme agenda of republican-elected officials committed to ripping away women's freedom. the president's statement also highlights the ban has no exception for rape or incest, none. on social media president biden blamed donald trump for the ban, and vice president kamala harris will now travel to arizona on friday. she was in phoenix just over a month ago as part of her fight

for reproductive freedoms tour, as it's called. the white house said the vice president has held more than 80 events in 20 states since the supreme court overturned roe just two years ago. we will talk about the politics of it in a minute, but first the legal side of it. how did we get from a code in 1864 to a supreme court upheld ruling in 2024? >> yesterday the arizona supreme court confirmed what we know about the zombie laws. these are practice roe laws that banned abortion when the supreme court decided roe v. wade were no longer good law, but instead of removing them from the books in many conservative states, they were permitted to stay looking forward to a day when roe v. wade would be overturned. that's precisely what has happened. we have seen a series of these laws -- i think this is the oldest one that we have looked

at come back into effect. willie, even when you have an attorney general that says she won't enforce the law, and she will try to keep all the county attorneys in arizona from enforcing it, too, there's risks and fear and uncertainty. doctors in arizona, clinics, people who help women access reproductive health care, and arizona has a long statute of limitations. might somebody come onboard in two or three years that could prosecute them for a felony crime and send them to prison for up to five years. this is essentially the end of access to abortion in arizona. >> a couple questions, and by the way, kamala harris is heading to arizona is definitely symbolic aport for abortion health care. she has shown up at abortion

clinics and the biden administration doing everything they can to support women and their rights to the health care, and this law has challenges. it doesn't immediately go into effect. can you tell us about the steps being taken to push back, at least? >> it has two weeks before it can go into effect, and that's typical in this sort of situation. there will certainly be efforts to challenge the law. the arizona supreme court referred to what they were doing is enforcing the mutable will of the voters, meaning the will of the voters can change over time and there's strong support in arizona for abortion rights. when that george w. bush adopted

an anti-abortion platform in the republican party's plan when he was running for election, barry goldwater, he said abortion will always be here, and this is a death nail for the republican party. even among arizona republicans, there's some support, or at least not this kind of support for a wish for a total ban on abortion, and it will present prevailing views if the legislature is willing to go there adopts new laws that sir plant this one. >> there's no clear example of how toxic this issue, and this rule something for republicans in arizona, and kari lake yesterday came out strongly against arizona supreme court

ruling. she wrote in part i am the only woman and mother in the race and i understood the fear and anxiety of pregnancy, and the joy of motherhood. i oppose today's ruling. that is not what kari lake was saying two years ago when she was running for governor. >> i don't believe in abortion. i think the older law is going to take -- is going to go into effect. that's what i believe will happen. i don't think abortion pills should be available. >> we will not be a state where we are taking the lives of our unborn anymore. i am thrilled we will have a great law already on the books that will prohibit abortion in arizona, and i think we will be paving the way and setting course for other states to follow.

>> vaughn hillyard, you have covered arizona closely and covered kari lake and covered her a number of times, and two years ago, she said whatever the supreme court decides is good for me, and now the 1864 territorial code is enforceable in 2024, and now she's running from it as many other republicans are across the country. >> i think kari lake is finding herself being a character that will be looked at across the 50 states here. kari lake is somebody in 2022 was looking at the hypothetical of roe v. wade being overturned, and she called that territorial ban a great law, and then fast-forward months after the dobbs decision, and i had a back and forth exchange with her if

she would have stood by if she won the race for governor and support the ban of abortion in arizona, and notably she sort of softened a little bit. she said she would stand by and defend whatever law the courts decided on, and now somebody may hold deeply true convictions about abortion, but suddenly we are at the place where more than two-thirds of arizonans wanted to codify abortion rights in arizona, and kari lake is acknowledging there's going to be a referendum on the state ballot that would grant abortion rights as a constitutional

amendment up to 24 weeks, and she said she opposed the ban, and not only are there real-life stories of women and families that will continue to come out but also the political consequences that is tied to their own. >> this law, if it goes into effect, it will cause immediate pain, trauma and danger and suffering, and it's denning them health care and it will have terrible, very specific impact on women and their families. having said that, listening to vaughn's coverage of kari lake and twisting and turning on this and running to the hills is typical of donald trump who is trying to turn and twist as he does on everything. we have polling and focus groups coming up in the next hour that will show that this behavior is beginning to take a toll on

trump's support. jonathan lemire, my question to you, even though this is terrible news for the women of arizona, this is an opportunity for the biden campaign to really show the differences here. >> first, mika, you are right, underscoring the human impact here of this decision on arizona's women. i will also note as kari lake called for governor hobbs not to enforce this, and remember, kari lake never conceded to hobbs, but she did in this way, saying i'm not governor. the electoral impact will be significant whether this code is enforced or not, but it's injected into the cover how the republican party views abortion

and women's health care. we had a conversation here about a week ago and i talked to democrats that felt like biden's only path was michigan, wisconsin, pennsylvania, and they are pleased the one vote in nebraska could be preserved and that's precisely 270. democrats were feeling pessimistic about arizona, and polls suggesting biden trails trump there, but this puts arizona back in play. >> i was there before this ruling and there was a discussion about the abortion rights groups were trying to get this initiative on the ballot, and there was a deadline and they had the signatures to get it on the ballot, or so they said. it was looking like an abortion rights, there's something enshrining abortion rights in the arizona constitution was

going to happen anyway. we are going to be saying this a lot between now and november, the human cost of this is huge at least in the short-term in arizona, if this goes into effect in a short-term way. it's not just about the contrast or where donald trump is, and it's a turnout game. what is joe biden worried about most every day? democratic constituents turning out who are not as thrilled with joe biden as they were in 2020. what is the biggest thing that energized the democratic base, and not a lot of democratic base voters, but marginal voters and the suburb voters all orr the swing states. the constitutional amendment on the ballot, and not only is that

the way arizona comes back and plays for joe biden, and that doesn't mean he will win it, but in nevada, there's another ballot initiative, and get these initiatives on the ballot and the democrats have a reasonable case to hope that will super charge enthusiasm and turnout in the fall and you have a places all of a sudden like arizona that turned out for joe biden in 2020, and it sets the narrative of what it will look like in that state. coming up on "morning joe," only one on trump's delay tactics gets denied by a judge. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." ead on "morning joe." with so many choices on booking.com there are so many tina feys i could be. so i hired body doubles. 30,000 followers tina in a boutique hotel.

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what in your view constitutes the primary threat to freedom and democracy at home? >> donald trump. seriously. donald trump talk uses phrases like we are going to ae sreuz rate the constitution and be a dictator on day one. i think he has a very jaded view of the constitution. he made it clear that he doesn't plan on abiding by parts of it if he doesn't think it's appropriate. at least he's saying it out loud. >> president joe biden warning about the threat he says donald trump poses to democracy. an appeals court judge rejected another attempt by trump to delay his upcoming hush-money trial set to get underway next week. it's a criminal trial. trump's attorneys tried to argue yesterday that the proceedings should be postponed while his

team challenges a court imposed gag order that they call unconstitutional, and the judge swiftly rejected that argument and jury selection is still slated to begin on monday. if it starts on monday, willie, that would be history. >> yeah, that's a criminal case for a former president trump of the united states, and that's the hush-money trial. meanwhile, special counsel jack smith had a victory when judge cannon ruled to keep the names sealed, and judge cannon said redacting the names would address the safety concerns for potential witnesses making it unnecessary to grant what she called wholesale requests to seal nonidentifying substantive

statements, and he said his arguments and evidence should have been raised early. joyce vance, on balance here, a good day for the prosecution or not so much? >> i am in the not so much camp on this one, willie. this is a surprising decision, something judges are typically good about and it's not viewed as pro prosecution or pro defense, and that's protecting witnesses in trials. in many cases witnesses are under subpoena, and so when there's a threat to their safety or security, and even one not as serious as a threat as what we know exists here, because we have seen how trump is able to rally his base, and even in the more modest cases, judges are very protective of witnesses when necessary, and here even

though their names can be redacted, and the special counsel might have to fight that on a case by case basis, and now we are in a moment where there's a game about the identitying of witnesses. >> yeah, in some cases, it matters who is giving it. and then do you see anything between where we sit right now and this trial actually getting under way on monday? >> the former president looks increasingly desperate to keep this one from going to the trial, and i know we have gotten into the habit of calling it the

hush-money case, but the judge issues a series of rulings this week talking about how they would conduct the jury voir dire, the selection process, and he said he will explain about it's the interference of the 2016 election, and that's why trump is so desperate to keep it from going to trial. i have seen defendants that don't want their case to proceed to engage in a full display of delayed tactics late in the game, and we might see somebody becoming ill, and when the stakes are this high he may decide it's time to develop an illness or try firing his lawyers, but the courts are on to what is going on here, and these new york appellant judges have said, look, you can appeal your issue about venue or the gag order but what you can't do is delay the trial in order to

do that. >> so vaughn, another trump legal front, his fraud case, and the ceo is to be sentenced today for lying under oath and will spend five months in rikers island for perjury. remind viewers why this matters, and who he is and the role he played? >> to date he still has to testify against donald trump, and that's what makes him so striking. he already spent 100 days in jail and that's part of the tax scheme in which he took perks from the trump organization, and he testified against the trump organization and not donald trump. fast-forward, this has everything to do with his testimony related to the civil fraud trial over the repeated

financial fraud claims that were made last year. what he's already admitted to the court is that he perjured himself by lying to the extent of what he knew about the valuation of trump's penthouse here in midtown manhattan, and he could be sentenced up to five months in prison, but as part of his agreement he did not have to testify in the hush-money case, and we see him not directly testifying against donald trump, but at the same time you go back and talk about michael cohen, and michael cohen said the only other person that heard trump say to set up the hush-money, it's weisselberg. it's a difficult witness here,

and he's willing to go to jail instead of truthfully testifying against him. >> i see somebody like him heading out to rikers, and he's 77 years old. is that right? >> yeah. >> and that's one of the mysteries as to why anybody would be willing to go to rikers for donald trump. we look at this case, and it's about to get going and a lot of people said over and over again, this is not the case you would want -- if there was going to be one donald trump case, the insurrection case would be the best, and you have a view in about the way this case picks at donald trump's psyche and could be more destabilizing in some ways. talk about that. >> i don't think you can decide which case is more important than the other, and it's not ours to decide, and this is

going first. was a crime committed? that will be proven or disproven in court, and as one of the earlier guest pointed out, it has more to do with the election than hush-money for the porn star. it's embarrassing to his wife that by all appearances, no knowledge here, seems pretty done with him. he doesn't get jokes or understand being mocked, and he can't even make fun of himself, and we have seen that over and over again, and i am speaking from personal knowledge of this man, with time spent with him before he was host of the

"apprentice" before he ran for the presidency. they embarrassed him and they drive him crazy and embarrass him, which is more important to trump in some ways than in others. having said that, this is going to make history. this is a criminal trial. there isn't a case like this that ever happened before, where a former president goes to court for criminal charges against him. we have to watch the law and follow the story as it happens and not make judgments on which one we think should go first. they all may tie together in the long run. we will see. vaughn hillyard, thank you very much. former u.s. attorney and msnbc legal analyst, joyce vance, thank you as well. coming up, congressman jim

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senior national security and legal officials is asking lawmakers to consider imposing new limits on a president's power to deploy troops on home soil arguing the century's old resurrection act -- jack, let me start with you. explain what the insurrection act is and what are the problems with it? >> it's a statute that dates back to the 1790s and exercises -- it gives the president a power contemplated by the constitution to use the militia and armed forces in the

domestic sphere in cases of insurrection, rebellion and extreme breakdowns of law enforcement and extreme violence. the problem -- and the statute has been amended many times since the 1790s, and there's a need for the president to have the authority in some cases, and the problem with the statute is the trigger for the president's use for the authority is much too broad and uses antiquated language, and congress is basically out of the game, so we proposed by -- a bipartisan group proposed a set of ways to narrow the statute and make sure there was a time limit on the use. >> we know former president trump talked about using the national guard to fight crime, for example, and squash dissent.

he talked about that. what is the timing for you all for coming up with the amendments to the law? >> it recognizes whoever controls the white house could be in a position to make misuse or abuse of the statute. no question, obviously, that some of the reports about considerations of the use of the insurrection act in the trump administration have focused attention on the statute. our emphasis is on trying to do something that is drawing attention to that in a bipartisan way, and this is a temptation to abuse for any president, and donald trump has brought lot of attention to it and appropriately so that we now pay attention to it, and it does not mean we should not consider this a broad problem about the absence of constraints on

possible abuses. >> the insurrection act does not expressly provide for judicial review, but we believe there should be a form of a review for judicial review, and so while the court and the supreme court has some role, this is ultimately about the political branches and about congress constraining the president. >> bob, it's john heilman here. let me go back to the comment that you made a second ago, which is, of course, this is out of context and the context is we heard about trump talking about the insurrection act on multiple occasions during his presidency, and tell me if the reforms you are imposing, and we talked

about the insurrection act in the wake after the george floyd murder in the white house when he walked across and held up the bible. would the changes you are proposing would have changed that in what way? would it have been impossible for him to do? what would the impact of the changes be? >> the issue is accountability. the president would have to under much more sharply defined concerns, invoke the authority to use the act and then consultation to the congress, and limits on the deployment and the limits that could go on as long as it's necessary, and none of those constraints are built

into the statute. any president in circumstances like that would face much higher bars, significant accountability that is currently absent from the law. >> all right, co chairs of the presidential reform project. thank you both very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. republican congresswoman marjorie taylor greene of georgia is ramping up her threats to oust speaker mike johnson, and she slams the speaker's plans to address aid for ukraine. she writes johnson's actions angered our republican base so much and given them very little reason to vote for a republican house majority. if we win the house this fall it will only be because trump is on the ballot, not because we have earned it. last month greene filed al resolution to remove johnson from house speaker, and she said

it was merely a warning, and we have seen it before, john heilman, and she is -- i don't know, as an american she's embarrassing to me on so many levels, but in terms of aid to ukraine, what the heck? how long are the ukrainians going to have to wait that you would think a true republican would be for when it comes to our national security? >> i have given up, mika, making predictions about when the republican party will do what the old republican party used to do or when that party will get its stuff together and behave like a governing party. the speaker that got in by fluke, other than the republican party could not figure out anybody else to put him at this job, and people on his right

flank would be talking about want to go oust him and do to him what they did to kevin mccarthy, i think people predicted it from the day he won the speakership, and people thought this was in the offering at some point, and whatever you think about this guy, and there's a lot to say, but he did not have the kind of experience or savvy that he would be able to navigate what is generally a difficult political circumstance given the nature of the republican caucus. this is a place where literally lives are on the line in ukraine, and they are the ones who are going to be paying the cost of this kind of republican dysfunction. >> jonathan lemire, what a commentary on the state of the republican party, marjorie taylor greene, from a small district in north georgia appears to be running the show on behalf of donald trump, and

she said she will not tolerate this kind of leadership, as if she's the one who decides, and maybe she does, and it's also that the speaker dare looked across the aisle to get votes to get legislation passed. >> many are saying marjorie taylor greene is the power source in the lower chamber in the gop, and some are retiring and giving up committee posts in powerful positions because they don't want to do this anymore. our friends on punchbowl news, their news letter suggests it's a binary choice for speaker johnson, he does ukraine aid or keeps his job. he can't have both. if he is going to try and bring a package to the floor that most people think it will pass and

will send aid to kyiv, but he would lose his job and be ousted. the only thing that could potentially save him is so many republicans remember the chaos of october when mccarthy was ousted and how embarrassing and painful that was for the party, and frankly, they don't have anybody else, there's nobody there that could step up in that position, and there is an extremely important issue as many are warningf the u.s. doesn't step up, ukraine could fall on hard times in that war. coming up, arizona could soon enforce a restrictive abortion law that first went on the books in 1864. we are going to speak with arizona's attorney general that calls that decision a stain on her state. that's straight ahead on "morning joe." "morning joe."

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her uncle's unhappy. it's what you keep th i'm sensing anrs. underlying issue. it's t-mobile. it started when we tried to get him under a new plan. but they they unexpectedly unraveled their “price lock” guarantee. which has made him, a bit... unruly. you called yourself the “un-carrier”. you sing about “price lock” on those commercials. “the price lock, the price lock...” so, if you could change the price, change the name! it's not a lock, i know a lock. so how can we undo the damage? we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. vice president kamala harris met with the families of israeli-american hostages yesterday. harris reassured them that the

biden administration is focused on securing the release of the more than 130 people still being held captive in gaza. the family members thanked the white house for its efforts and called on both sides to agree to a deal. >> we have just come out of a very productive meeting with vice president harris, who carved out time to meet with us hostage families. we are very grateful for that. we discussed a lot of different things and one of the things we talked about is that there is a possibility of holding two truths, you can believe, as we do, that it is horrible that innocent civilians in gaza are suffering, and at the same time, you can also know that it is horrible and against international law for hostages to be held against their will.

there are 133 cherished souls who are being held there and it is time -- we don't want any more progress, we want results. >> jonathan lemire that's rachel goldberg, the mother of a young man being held inside of gaza. we had her on the show a few days ago and she was rightly outraged that there wasn't more of an emphasis on the hostages in that phone call on thursday between president biden and prime minister netanyahu. so yesterday getting that meeting with the vice president. >> she and her husband sat down next to me on set a few days ago. they were viscerally angry, there was a fury there in the aftermath of the conversation between president biden and prime minister netanyahu last week. biden pushed netanyahu to make some changes and they have opened up new paths to aid into gaza, but the hostages weren't at the forefront of that conversation. they were discussed, i'm told, but not at the forefront and there was real anger that they weren't. now, there have been more negotiations over the last few days in cairo, some optimism

from israeli officials that a deal could be close, but talks then stopped without one. hamas still says they're considering this proposal, they haven't given their final answer yet. we will see what the coming days hold, but right now we've been here before, there have been a few moments where negotiations seemed close and then fallen apart. we are still awaiting that breakthrough. >> and then there's this, on the question of israel, donald trump says any jewish person who votes for joe biden does not love israel and, quote, should be spoken to. those are the words of donald trump. the presumptive 2024 republican nominee. made those comments during an interview with the far right network on monday. he then went on to offer an opinion about why he thinks jewish and black americans historically have voted for democrats. >> they don't want to talk about the attack of october 7th on israel because biden is -- is no fan of israel. any jewish person that votes for biden does not love israel, and

frankly, should be spoken to. jewish people by habit -- >> and it's changing. >> -- they vote for the democrat and black people by habit vote for the democrats. >> right. >> now the african american population is -- we are at the highest level anyone has ever been at as a republican. it still should be much higher because of what i've done with criminal justice reform, with funding the black colleges and university, with all of the opportunity zones. nobody has done more than i have. i say nobody has done more since abraham lincoln. i actually wanted to go beyond abraham lincoln, but some people thought that wasn't a good thing to do, so i left it at that. >> joining similar comments about jewish democrats last month saying they hate israel and their religion. he said black voters were flocking to him because they related to him being criminally indicted and, quote, embraced his mugshot more than any group. let's bring in the host of

msnbc's "politics nation" reverend al sharpton. a lot to chew on in those comments. sadly, it's nothing but for donald trump, we've heard this before. we've heard what i just said which is that he believed black voters relate to him because of the mugshot. he thinks they like the sneakers that are $400 that he put out there. just trafficking in all kinds of stereotypes on that side. of course, and on the other side suggesting you are not really jewish if you vote democrat and you hate israel. i will open it up to you, rev. >> well, there is a lot to chew on if you're going to spit it out in my opinion after you chew. even in his condescending, insulting statement, he can't help but offend black americans when at the end of his statement he says, i could have done more than abraham lincoln but a lot of people thought it wasn't good. what is that supposed to mean? who are a lot of other people and what other good? let us remember that we did get

the civil rights act of '64 under lyndon johnson and the '65 voting rights act of '65 under johnson, both of which donald trump's appointed supreme court has done a lot to chip away. what they've done to the voting rights bill in this supreme court has just about neutralized it, and he put those people on the court. he has supported, including now with abortion, states rights, which the old civil war and civil rights movement was about. so what did he do for black americans? i think joe biden has given as much or more to hbcus if that's what he's saying, and criminal justice reform, i think it was joe biden that said support the george floyd justice in policing act, and when the republicans blocked it, he went ahead and did an executive order. donald trump was saying when we were protesting around george

floyd, when the looting starts the shooting starts, rather than, yes, this is a shame what happened to floyd and we need to deal with police reform as part of criminal justice reform. so, again, i think that not only does he miss the runway, he missed the airport when it comes to decency and civil rights. >> coming up, a live report from the courthouse in lower manhattan where jury selection will begin on monday in donald trump's criminal hush money trial. lisa ruben is standing by with more on that and much more when "morning joe" comes right back. "morning joe" comes right back

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that's the question. welcome to the fourth hour of "morning joe." it's 6:01 on the west coast, 9:00 a.m. in the east. jonathan lemire, reverend al sharpton still with us, joining us for the hour former senior aide to the biden and clinton

campaigns adrienne elrod. we are following the growing reaction this morning to the arizona supreme court's ruling that a 160-year-old law, criminalizing nearly all abortions in the state, is still enforceable. the decision is galvanizing abortion rights supporters across the country and keeping this crucial health care issue front and center in the race for the white house just a day after donald trump said it should go to the states, arizona said, okay, here you go. nbc's hallie jackson has the latest. >> reporter: new fallout this morning over a bombshell ruling in arizona that puts in place one of the country's strictest anti-abortion laws. overnight the democratic governor furious. >> the devastating impact of this ban that it will have on health care for women across the state is just unconscionable. >> reporter: the state supreme court's decision reinstating a law put in place more than a

century ago, 1864, before arizona was even a state. it makes no exceptions for rape or incest, only for the life of the mother. once the law goes into effect, which could be in the next couple of months, doctors could face prison time, up to five years, for performing the procedure. >> our state legislature and our judges in our state feel that people in the year 2024 want to go back to 1864 when slavery was legal and women didn't have the right to vote for 50 years. >> reporter: the state's attorney general says she has no intention of enforcing the law. >> no woman or doctor will be prosecuted under this draconian law. >> reporter: anti-abortion advocates celebrating the ruling as a win, but president biden calling it cruel and posting a photo of former president trump with the caption "trump did this." a nod to the supreme court's 2022 decision overturning roe v. wade, a decision for decades

overruled state laws like the one in arizona. mr. trump, who has taken credit for the supreme court's decision -- >> i was proudly the person responsible for the ending of something that all legal scholars, both sides, wanted and, in fact, demanded be ended, roe v. wade. >> reporter: mr. trump also alluding to the realities at the ballot box since roe was overturned, saying republicans should avoid losing elections on an issue that should be decided by the states in his view, a position he made clear in a video earlier this week and reiterated through his campaign in a statement on the arizona decision, saying, these are decisions for people of each state to make. >> whatever they decide must be the law of the land, in this case the law of the state. >> reporter: already some arizona republicans distancing themselves from this state ruling, including senate candidate carrie lake, locked in one of the most high profile races in the country. two years ago she endorsed the 1864 law. >> we have a great law on the

books right now. if that happens we will be a state where we will not be taking the lives of our unborn anymore. >> reporter: now she says she opposes it, as does her democratic challenger. >> we will have our say and we will fight. >> all right. carrey lake -- kari does not oppose it. we will talk ba b. that in just a moment. but this is really in arizona an assault on women's rights. it's an assault on the health of women in the state of arizona. this law was put in place before arizona was actually a state, before women could vote and when arizona had about 6,500 people in it, as opposed to over 7 million today. it's a law that will make anybody who gets pregnant in arizona want to leave the state because it will be a matter of life and death.

arizona attorney general kris mayes joins us now here on "morning joe." thank you very much for coming on the show. we heard your words yesterday and i'm curious what is going to happen moving forward? like let's say you are a woman who has just found out she's pregnant and she lives in arizona and she's worried, what happens if she has a problematic pregnancy, what happens if she needs a dnc, what happens if she needs a termination because she has fetal abnormalities, does she need to leave the state? >> mika, hi, thanks for having me. it's an important question and, you know, yesterday women and men, republicans, independents, democrats, woke up to a situation in which the arizona supreme court reimposed this 1864 ban. it's insane. it's egregious. it's an affront to our freedom.

so, you know, i think women are scrambling right now to try to figure this situation out. i have said that i will not prosecute any woman, doctor, pharmacist, nurse or individual who helps a woman to seek an abortion or reproductive access. i've also said, and we are looking at everything we can right now from a legal standpoint to prevent this decision from going into effect. i've had some phone calls from my fellow attorneys general in states around arizona and, frankly from throughout the state and the vice president of the united states calling me saying, hey, how can we help you? >> so you say you will not prosecute a woman seeking an abortion, someone who conducts one. let me just ask you to level, though, with the people of arizona, with the women of

arizona. right now you're going to do everything you can to try to push back against what the arizona supreme court has done. we agree that it is terrible what they've done, that it is a danger to women and it creates specific and clear life-threatening situations for them. if someone you love is in their first trimester, what is your advice? should they leave the state of arizona or hope that you and -- saying that you won't prosecute, will not cause still confusion and problems and possibly the inability to get the health care that this woman needs? what would you do if it was somebody you love? >> yeah, mika, you know, i'm a mom, too, and this is something that i think obviously a lot of women need to have a conversation with their ob/gyn and make a plan, make a backup

plan for what to do if something goes wrong. i think that's -- you know, that is why i'm going to be having conversations with my surrounding state ags about how they can help and how other states can help if a woman has a difficulty in her pregnancy so that that person can go to another state. i do think we are -- i mean, we are a couple months away from this law actually being implemented, as i said, i'm going to do everything i can to try to prevent it from ever being implemented. the good news is in november the people of arizona are going to vote on a ballot initiative that would permanently enshrine abortion rights in our constitution, but you're right, there is this -- going to be this period of time where pregnant women are -- if something goes wrong, if they need an abortion, if they want an abortion, may have to look to

other states and so i think that's something they're going to need to start thinking about and making a plan for potentially. >> yeah, you know, adrienne elrod, we will get to the politics of this in just a minute, i know you might have a question for the attorney general. i will just say that what's happening in arizona right now is causing a swirl of confusion at least, at the very least, because what the supreme court has done is unequivocal. then there's going to be appeals to this and what the attorney general is trying to do, and promising to do, and i believe her. at the same time i know in another state there was the case of a very young girl, i believe 13 years old, who was raped in a yard and then found out she was pregnant and all the confusion around abortion bans led to this child having two bring this baby to term, which in itself was a story and a health risk and a bunch of different issues. so with that what is your question for the attorney general?

>> yeah, first of all, attorney general, thank you so much for your leadership on this and for really taking a stand. you know, i want to go back to something that you just talked about how, you know, you're looking to talk to other attorneys general across the region, you know, even to an extent across the country. of course, all of you have been on the front lines of so many things, democracy, protecting a women's right to choose over the last few years. as a woman myself i'm grateful for that. can you elaborate on that? if you are working to create a system of, you know a network, if you will, with other attorneys general, what does that look like and do you sort of create a little system where as mika mentioned if there is a 13-year-old girl who is raped in a yard, how can she get to another state quickly? is that something that you truly feel like is something that you can do over the next few months between now and the election? >> you know, that's a great question and it's something that we are thinking through right now. the good news is, you know, i am a pro choice, pro abortion

rights attorney general. we have them in california, we have them in nevada, new mexico, and so we have this opportunity where if that kind of a situation were to happen and if a young girl were to be raped and become pregnant and we need to get her out of the state, i believe that we could get her out of the state and we would do everything we could. we would also fight in court to prevent, you know, her from being exposed and from this law being imposed on her. so there is a difference here, which is you have a democratic ag in me who is going to do everything i can to fight the imposition of this law from 1864 on that situation, on that young girl, and we've got surrounding states that want to help. as i said, these states have already reached out to me to see

how they can help, you know, in that situation it would be how can we get her safely across state lines into california where abortion is legal? >> i'd love to have you back to hear more about how this is actually being put in place, especially how the word is going to get out to women across the state of arizona using pharmacies or community centers or what, how do they get this information to know that they are safe and that they will get the health care they need? would love to have you back anytime soon to get more developments on this story as it happens. arizona attorney general kris mayes, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we turn now to a historic trial which is set to begin next week. after an appeals court yesterday rejected former president donald trump's latest attempt to delay the start of his hush money trial in new york. the ruling clears the way for jury selection to begin this

monday. mean while former trump ceo allen weisselberg will be sentenced this morning for lying under oath. joining us from outside the manhattan courthouse where both today's sentencing and next week's trial are taking place, former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa ruben. lisa, first on weisselberg, what sentence do we expect for him to receive? >> reporter: so, mika, under his plea agreement weisselberg is expected to receive five months. that's the exact term that he received the last time that he pled guilty to a felony here in new york state. he was immediately remanded at that sentencing hearing to rikers island. whether or not that will happen today remains to be seen, however, in his plea agreement there was an agreement also to delay the sentencing for six weeks. that's typical where you're trying to allow a defendant to get their affairs in order so that if they are immediately taken from the courtroom to

jail, that's what would happen. >> so, lisa, let's turn to the hush money case. jury selection set to begin monday. first, just let us know if you think there are any other last second delay tactics the trump team could attempt, and if not, and if things are happening on monday, just walk the viewers through what that's going to look like in terms of the jury selection process and what each side will be looking for and how long it might take. >> reporter: well, let's start, john, with your second question first, which is are there any other last minute things the trump folks could try. indeed there are. even after yesterday's ruling trump still has an opportunity to convince a five-judge panel of new york's appellate division first department that the trial should be stayed while he appeals the terms of that gag order. but let's move to jury selection now and what we will see because there will be a courtroom full of prospective jurors and not journalists like us who

typically fill the courtroom. at that jury selection one of the first things that judge merchan will ask is is there anybody here who is unable to concern. anyone who raises their hand will no questions asked be allowed to leave. then they will move on to some of the questions in that jury questionnaire. if somebody has an answer to those, that they want to discuss with the judge, they will be given an opportunity to, but, of course, this is a jury selection process that is designed to ensure the anonymity of the participants. so there may be moments where we don't hear answers because, for example, in discussing where a particular prospective juror works or where they live, they might reveal information about themselves that would allow someone like us to deduce who they are. that's something judge merchan will be careful to guard against starting monday. >> former litigator and msnbc legal correspondent lisa rubin live outside the courthouse in new york city, thank you very much. we will be talking to you again very soon. let's bring in msnbc chief legal correspondent and anchor

of "the beat" on msnbc, ari melber. we will get to all things trump and legal in just a second, but i have to ask you about what happened in arizona yesterday. what do you think the process will be moving forward trying to save women from horrific health situations? the attorney general seems committed to making a clear path for women who need the health care to get it, but what are the realities that we're dealing with now given what the arizona supreme court ruled yesterday? >> such an important question and you had a newsworthy interview there as we learn why it matters who is in office in these local offices that sometimes get less attention. i think you're seeing the immediate conflict within the law because you have the supreme court that thinks it makes sense to revive a law from an era when women were literally legally treated as property, quote, unquote, chattel, reviving a law like that would be no different than reviving a law about the

treatment of people based on race from back in the era of pre jim crow or slavery. what your interview and other indications we're getting of course is that there is going to be this clash and fight at the local level about not doing the worst draconian steps in the revived law, which include jailing people for participating in any type of potential termination of a pregnancy, and as you know, mika, and viewers will remember, that's exactly what the republican appointees on the supreme court promised would not happen. they said what's happening in arizona today, where we are today, would never happen under their ruling. at an empirical or factual level as you look at the map and how many places it's legal in all circumstances, arizona yellow where under this decision could involve jailing people they were wrong, it was false what they projected. we are now in this march to as well whether people reverse this in november. >> you know, just pointing out,

we will get to the legal stuff in just a second here, but pointing out that donald trump did make it clear to chris matthews in an interview that women -- women should be punished if they receive an abortion. this punishment that you are talking about, jail, is anyone who -- doctor who takes part in one, anybody involved with an abortion gets a punishment, but women get the ultimate punishment here if they are denied the abortion health care they need and it's very specific and very real. bleeding out, forced to have a baby that will die moments after birth, being sterilized, mental health trauma, the trauma to the family, the trauma to the father and the mother, to the family as a whole. the list goes on. arizona is going back to the dark ages and kari lake doesn't even want anything to do with it. that should tell you everything you need to know about what donald trump has done to women's

health care, saying they should be punished if they get an abortion, undermining roe v. wade and taking credit for hiring the supreme court judges for bringing them on board so that he could then take the credit for overturning roe v. wade and now he says it should go to the states and now we get a look at what that is going to be like in arizona. everybody is trying to fight it there, anyone who cares about women's health, but it doesn't look good for the state of arizona. moving on to trump's trials, jury selection of course in the hush money trial begins on monday. what is your over/under on last minute delays or delays during jury selection, and at what point do the delays look desperate? >> well, they already look like they're repeatedly losing. i guess as a legal reporter it's not for me to say whether an allowed motion is desperate

because they are allowed. you are allowed to file losing motions. donald trump's lawyers have lost a bunch. they lost the jack smith appeal all the way up to the supreme court, we are going to see if they can reverse it there and as you mentioned they've lost the delay tactics. just yesterday the high court in new york basically affirming, the appeals court, that this monday start holds, so that's a win for the da and a loss for trump. so i don't see a lot of other avenues where they're going to be able to delay this. i think jury selection as lisa and others have mentioned is going to start monday, and that can take some extra time in a case of this magnitude. we use this word "unprecedented." usually you are trying to make sure people don't have a random link to a defendant or random animus against a group. here fair-minded people i think you would agree based on your job, you talk to a lot of people, i bet you know plenty of fair-minded people that have really strong opinions about donald trump. it's going to be harder to pick this jury because if their opinions are so strong that they

say, i don't know -- this they answer the question honestly do you think that he could be 100% innocent? can you have your mind open to that? and they go, i don't know. they're gone. this could take longer. are there enough people in new york who can do that job? absolutely, but it's going to take time to find them. it's better for the system that we all observe this, we get fair, open-minded jurors. it's not good for the system and it wouldn't be fair to the defendant to have anything other than that process. so let's have that process in fairness to him and the other parties involved. >> so ahead of monday's start to trump's hush money trial, ari, you interviewed someone who was connected to one of the key witnesses in the case, the charges allege trump paid adult film star stormy daniels right before the 2016 election to cover up an affair she said they had. last night on "the beat" you played your interview with former lawyer for stormy daniels, michael avenatti.

avenatti is currently serving a 19-year prison sentence in california for stealing millions of dollars from clients and trying to extort nike. you asked him -- having said all of that -- about the timing of next week's new york trial. here is what he had to say. >> well, i think what i'm about to say is going to surprise a lot of people and that is that, you know, i think this is the wrong case at the wrong time, ari. i think that the case is in many ways stale at this juncture. you are talking about conduct that occurred some eight years ago. i think the fact that it's occurring in state court in new york is a mistake and i think that when you are going to potentially deprive tens of millions of americans of their choice for the presidency of the united states, whether we agree with those folks or not, or regardless of what we may think

of donald trump, i think it's a mistake to do it based on a case of this nature. >> so tell me about the insight that you got from him. i'm also curious why you wanted to talk to him. >> well, the first time he has spoken out on the case since he's been to prison. i think he was on a lot of different media for the same reason that we wanted to talk to him again yesterday. there wouldn't likely be a da investigation, let alone an indictment for donald trump, let alone what is now the first ever trial of the former president without the way that mr. avenatti ignited and pushed those issues. now he also is -- and i asked him in the interview about his crimes, convictions, the dishonesty that he was convicted of and how he treated his clients and why we should take his word on anything now. but as with so many people around a trial the da doesn't get to pick perfect witnesses or fact patterns and we cover who is around there.

i think it was newsworthy to hear from someone who ignited this, now has his own problems. we were speaking from inside his prison cell. viewers might remember when he was in the limelight a lot, doing television and other interviews, people were following his every word. then of course he had this huge fall, this heavy prison sentence, and this is the first time anyone has heard from him in any substantive fashion since he went to prison. so that prison interview i think is clearly legally relevant and newsworthy. as for the remarks he made, he did say that he has criticisms of the da's case, he did say the federal and state issues which are complicated could help donald trump maybe reverse it on appeal. other legal experts have said that. he also said he expects trump to be convicted in this case. that's interesting given that he is so close to it. then he raised his long-standing disputes with michael cohen. now, mr. cohen is someone we expect to hear from perhaps in the trial, i would certainly have him back on "the beat" and mr. cohen like mr. avenatti who

were lawyers around donald trump, ended up on trial, convicted and doing prison time. this is the world this have trial, mika, as observers i don't know that we get to pick who the players are, but it's certainly interesting to hear from him and i do think the last point i will make is this jury is going to be presented with a lot of attacks and discussion of who is credible. is ms. daniels credible, mr. cohen credible, mr. weisselberg credible in what he wants to say about perhaps what went wrong or whether they lied on documents whiskey to convicting trump. he is up for perjury today which may be the da's way to box in anything he may say about trump. you remember the perfect phone call we were told about, mika, i don't think that call turned out to be perfect. i don't think all the players are perfect but the question we're going to keep our eye on is who knows what, can it be proven and does it mean donald trump should be convicted of a crime? >> msnbc chief legal correspondent ari melber, thank you very much for coming on this

morning. >> thank you. >> we will be watching "the beat" weekdays at 6:00 p.m. eastern right here on msnbc. and coming up on "morning joe," we're going to get insight on november's election from a key voting group, undecided voters in three critical battleground states. while they had harsh words for joe biden when it comes to the economy and this really crystallizes how they feel about the economy, they also didn't hold back about how they feel about donald trump. we'll also speak with a national co-chair of president biden's reelection campaign, congressman jim clyburn of south carolina. that's next on "morning joe." ybh carolina that's next on "morng injoe. hello, ghostbusters. it's doug. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. we got a bit of a situation. [ metal groans] sure, i can hold. ♪ liberty liberty liberty liberty ♪ in theaters now.

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31 past the hour. this morning we've been taking a really fascinating look at undecided voters in key swing states. it's a set of polls and focus

groups conducted simultaneously, which i don't think has been done before, by wake insights and the interactive video platform two way. so we hear from voters in michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania, undecided voters. okay. and they are states of course that donald trump narrowly swept in 2016 and then joe biden in 2020. let's start. here are their answers when they're asked about how president biden is doing on the economy. take a listen. >> i think he's been absolutely disastrous for the economy. >> uh-huh. i agree. >> if you think president trump's policies on the economy would be better for your family personally raise your hand. all right. so that is everybody. president biden argues that his economic record has been very good, president trump's was not as good. what are you keying off of?

sean, since you had -- what are you keying off of to say president trump's economic policies would be bet. >> reporter: >> i mean, my past performance of my 401(k). i know it was post 2020 and everything kind of flipped around, but you can't blame everything on 2020 forever. >> we have areas here in pennsylvania where it's just at a standstill right now. like things are supposed to be being built and the interest rates are just way too high for people to, you know, invest and start moving -- moving around. >> virginia, just staying with you because pennsylvania near and dear to joe biden's heart, will there biden policies that you would blame for the policy and if so what are they? >> the interest rate is so high right now and i know they're trying to cut the inflation down but if nobody is building, no businesses are really coming to pennsylvania right now to keep us moving forward. >> even if you try to buy a house because i'm trying to become a first-time home buyer, the prices are so high right now that it's just hard. >> is there anything joe biden

could do or say between now and the time you vote that would make you feel differently about feeling that his policies would not be as good for your family on the economy or are you pretty much decided that trump's policies would be better for the economy? >> i mean, i feel like he doesn't even take accountability at all for what's going on in the economy. not even accountability, he's in denial that it's happening. >> the point is biden needs to hear the people because when he's talking about the economy doing stellar, he's talking about the stock market he is not looking at homelessness or joblessness, he is not thinking about how much it costs to go to the grocery store and he's gaslighting everyone in the process. >> omar, you voted for joe biden last time, right? >> yeah. >> wow. okay. 401(k)s, interest rate, housing prices, adrian there's so much to talk about in terms of the campaign, the words accountability and denial brought up as it pertains to joe biden and the economy. hearing all of that you might think things are bad for the

biden campaign, but president biden's trump card might be donald trump. listen to this group's thoughts, undecided voters, on the former president. >> i just think donald trump is mean. he's a bully and i think -- i think his policies are solid, i pretty much agree with most of them, i just don't like him as a leader. >> i don't think he does a lot to try to bring groups together and, you know, from when he ran the last time our country became so divided, i don't know if it's anything particularly -- particular about what he said or did, but our country really just -- we really picked sides on this. >> i feel like people forget about that, sean, it's such a good point. trump is so volatile and not only internal strife and conflict, but i don't feel comfortable with him calling someone with nukes rocketman. >> -- so much behind social media. it's like just get your fingers

off of the phone. >> exactly. >> it's a situation that when i'm at the capitol to me that got really out of control, it makes you wonder, well, if he's back in there what -- anything could happen now. >> i feel like if trump just shut his mouth like and just did policy and his work i would say, yes, please come back, but if he just learns to keep his mouth closed, don't make comments about people that he might not necessarily like that much and just be a strong leader and do his job. >> the divisiveness that he causes in the country is like the big, big problem. his policies could be great, but that almost undermines that all. >> his position differs based on his audience and, i mean, as a politician that's a great skill to have but it just makes him so untrustworthy to anybody who is paying attention. it just seems entirely disingenuous. >> wow. so much there, despite right wing networks blatantly lying

about donald trump and fox news sort of avoiding any bad news about him, the truth on trump seems to be out there with these undecided voters. seems to be breaking through. divisive, mean, insurrection, untrustworthy, always changing his opinion. joining us now congressman jim clyburn of south carolina, he is national co-chair for the biden campaign. we will put that aside and let's talk about some of the real warning signs that i heard for the biden campaign, congressman, and that was that these undecided voters polled and then in this focus group showing that they are really suffering when it comes to interest rates, trying to buy a home, looking at their own personal economies and they're feeling like they're being gas lit. they're feeling joe biden isn't accountable. what's your response to that and how can the campaign address

these feelings? >> well, first of all, thank you very much for having me. i think that we have to focus on people's everyday lives. 401(k)s are not about people's everyday lives. and i do believe just from my own observations, from the conversations i have had with people, there are concerns about things like inflation, but what we've got to get them to see is that inflation today is about 40% of what it was when joe biden took office. and so the inflation rates are down and people's incomes are up. unemployment is on the decrease. and although we see the prices at the stores costing more money, people are, in fact, earning greater incomes. so what we've got to do is make

sure that people see the policies of the biden administration, how they affect their every day lives, and get them to see in his policies that which is real. not what they may hear on social media. one of the focus group people talked about social media and the misrepresentation, disinformation, all of those things are out there and that's the battle that we have to fight and we've got to do a better job of fighting it more effectively. >> so i will validate that, i think the disinformation out there is distorting the entire process, i think social media doesn't help, but there's also a lack of validation that these voters feel, and i'm going to bring in andrew ross sorkin right now because we just got breaking news, the consumer price index increased at a faster than expected pace last month, a signal that inflation

remains stubbornly high. let's bring in andrew, co-changer of cnbc's "squawk box." what will this mean to people in their every day lives? >> well, i think this was a big surprise. it is accelerating and we've been on this broadcast for months now about how the trend line was in president biden's favor. today i imagine they're throwing a party at mar-a-lago because the truth is that right now inflation has now moved in the opposite direction. so it's going to be harder for the administration to make the argument around this inflation trend line. what it means and you're seeing it in the markets just right now, is that frankly mortgage rates are not going to be coming down, credit card rates are not going to be coming down. there had been this view that the federal reserve might cut interest rates as early as june. there was an expectation of three interest rate cuts. now that's getting pushed off again. you're seeing treasuries move up in price, the stock market has been moved down on this news today. as i said, it has been a shock

and i think a surprise for many just how hot this number has turned out to be and it surprised me, too. >> so, andrew, thank you for that. thanks for jumping in with this new information. i want to take that to the rev and then back to jim clyburn. rev, you can take it to the congressman. but i want to ask you about this as it pertains to joe biden's posture on the economy and, therefore, the campaign's posture on the economy. two things can be true at the same time. joe biden can have created a lot of jobs. joe biden can have passed the inflation reduction act. joe biden can have passed the chips and science -- joe biden can have passed more legislation that was productive and constructive to the economies of the american people and their salary levels than any other president in modern history. there are a lot of truths that have occurred in his presidency. he has had a lot of successes. but i think -- i think the problem is in bragging on those

successes, which he should be able to do, he has to also validate that some people are still stuck. and i think that's what we heard from those undecided voters, rev. >> no, i think you're exactly right. that's what we heard from the undecided voters. and i think you're exactly right about what joe biden has been able to do. i think the one thing that they have the advantage of if they take advantage of it, and i'm talking about the biden/harris campaign, is to compare what he has done to what donald trump did. i think that we keep forgetting we have a record to run in terms of donald trump. where was the economy there? where was inflation there? where was black unemployment there, et cetera, and say, yes, there are people still suffering, but i dug out of a hole that donald trump dug you in. let's not blame the guy with the

shovel digging you out, blame the guy that caused the hole or at least exacerbated it during the pandemic and other decisions that he made or did not make as president. i'm talking about trump. so, congressman, a lot of it i think has to really be conceding that we have problems, but can also make it clear where the problems started, what joe biden has been able to do, what he still needs to do, and he has a congress in many ways in the house with you that many of those members were hand-picked by donald trump and if we have had a different congress i could have even gotten a lot more. don't you think we're not hearing enough of that message, congressman clyburn? >> absolutely. and that's the whole point. when you look at what has gone on in our communities, let me just take the people that i represent. we went through an administration that spent four years talking about we are going

to have infrastructure week, infrastructure month. not one dime spent on infrastructure. what happens when you build roads and bridges and you are putting in new water systems for safe drinking water for school children, you're also creating jobs. millions of jobs are being created while at the same time making our bridges safer, making our roads more passable and making water -- safe drinking water for our children. those are jobs and those are health indices that we are improving upon and those are the things that we have to get people to see in their every day lives. we are seeing it in my communities, we've just got to get people to give the top contribution of that to joe biden. >> congressman, adrienne elrod. great to see you. i want to sort of talk a little bit about what we've been

talking about on this panel so far, which is obviously president biden has gotten so much done, a tremendous amount of legislation has been passed under him. we could go on and on, but to the point that i think we've all been talking b you know, how do you also articulate a forward-looking agenda, is that second-term agenda, what is the president going to continue to do for the american people? i thought he did a really effective job at the state of the union, i think he's going out on the campaign trail and talking about this but where do you see the best setting for president biden, knowing him so well, being one of the campaign co-chairs? is he better off going to smaller groups and really having that i feel your pain and here is what i'm going to do about it conversation? do you think it's better to go to larger events? i'd love to just get your thoughts on how you think he can really get that message across that he's been talking about how he's going to really make sure that his second term agenda is alive and well in the minds of undecided voters. >> i think you put your finger on the pulse of what i have been

experiencing and that is showing people what the future is all about. it's one thing to have eliminated $146 billion in student loan debt for 4 million americans, but the president just announced two days ago his new student loan debt program that would reach 23 million people. and let me hasten to add this is not about getting nurses -- paying for the education of doctors. i often think about the gentleman that wrote this long letter to the president, one of my constituents provided me with a copy of it. his original loan was $60,000 to go to graduate school. he had been paying back for 30 years and still owed $119,000. that all got wiped away. but going forward, he was able to pay off the parent plus loans he had for his children.

now he can look at this new program that will cover 23 million americans in eliminating the interest -- unfair interest that they have had on these loans and also eliminating the debt for these students, former students, who went to his fly by night institutions like trump university that took their money, did not give them an education, got sued, settled the lawsuit and these students were saddled with the debt. joe biden has eliminated that debt. and so we've got to get them to see that joe biden has done what is necessary to free them of these policies of the past administration that they were saddled with. and that's what's in their future, a much better future, less debt, you can now start a family, you can now purchase a

home and you can now begin to raise your children more debt-free. >> democratic congressman jim clyburn of south carolina, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. we appreciate it. and coming up, we're going to get a preview of the new york premiere of "sally and tom" a new play about thomas jefferson and the complexities of his relationship with sally hemmings. susan laurie parks joins us next on "morning joe." susan laurie pt on "morning joe. were preventing migraine with qulipta? you'll never truly forget migraine, but zero-migraine days are possible. don't take if allergic to qulipta. most common side effects are nausea, constipation and sleepiness. qulipta. the forget-you-get-migraine medicine.

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. a shot there of times square, 9:52 a.m. here on the east coast, and speaking of broadway, one of the country's most celebrated -- is bringing a new production to the stage. in 1989, "the new york times" called susan laurie parks the

year's most promising playwright. in 2002 her production top dog underdog earned the pulitzer prize for drama making her the first black woman to ever achieve that honor. it also won the tony award for best revival of a play in 2023 when "time" magazine named parks one of the 100 most influential people of the year. now her new play "sally and tom" is in rehearsals ahead of its opening night next week at the public theater where she is also the long-time writer in residence. that is an extraordinary resume. we are so happy to have you here. >> i'm thrilled to be here. >> let's start with "sally and tom" opens april 16th. next week at the public theater. tell us about it. >> sally and tom is a play about a group of people who are putting own a play at sally hemmings and thomas jefferson. it's a scrappy downtown theater

group called good company, and they're wrestling with what it means to put on a play about some joyful things and some difficult things. >> so each actor then is playing dual roles in the play and in the play. >> that is right. >> tell us about this moment, it does feel like history has re-evaluated thomas jefferson particularly in light of this relationship with sally hemmings. how do you touch upon that in your show? >> well, you know, the beginning of the play, the play started with love. the play is in my opinion a love letter to america and a love letter to theater. so all the characters in the play, in both plays, are met and embraced with love because i think in this country in my experience, a lot of us are stuck, you know, and kind of like trying to figure out how to move forward, and the structure of the play is really an invitation to have nuanced conversations about some things that are beautiful and some things that are difficult. >> suzan lori parks. >> i love when you say my name. it sounds good.

>> let me ask you this, in the play it is not just the people watching, i'm definitely going. it is not a political statement either way. it's really dealing with how the emotions, how the scenes of that time may have worked out and people can make their own judgments. talk about that. >> that's very important these days that we're not just told what to think but we're invited to as our director says, we're invited to inspect, literally to look again and feel and see things we haven't seen and felt before. it's a muscle that is under used in world culture. we're encouraged to have split second decisions and cancel something if it's not to your liking. and this play really involves a real evaluation, a reevaluation. >> when people walk out of the theater when they go to see it, what do you hope they're walking out thinking? >> wow, like, wow, okay. okay. i mean, what's great about the play so far, what we've

witnessed is it really appeals to younger audience, 20 somethings, 30 somethings, which is thrilling to me because i'm feeling the transmission is happening. and those audiences are really walking out saying, wow, oh, my mind is blown. i'm ready to engage. that kind of thing, and we need that in this culture. we need our 20 and 30 somethings, we need everybody to be excited about wrestling with things going on these days. >> it's an important work. rev, we're definitely going. "sally and tom" opens next tuesday. playwright suzan-lori parks. best of luck. that does it this morning, we will see you tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. eastern. ana cabrera will pick up msnbc's coverage after a quick final break. after a quick final break. ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spraying flonase daily gives you long lasting non-drowsy relief. flonase all good.

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