situation, ultimately, the fact that shohei ohtani is so popular and has done something in being a pitcher and hitter that fans have never seen before has elevated baseball to a place they have always wanted to be. baseball would never admit it. maybe as much as i'm saying here, but football is just so dominant. er they are always playing catch up to football. >> but he's a global superstar, a global superstar in a way that a lot of baseball players are not. also, he has such a private life. there's so little to know about him. much of what's going on in thiz head, what he's doing off the field is somewhat of a mystery. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york.

here we go. porn star, playboy play mate and an ex-president walk into a bar. what do you get? what just might be the trial of the century. nbc news has obtained the list of potential witnesses for donald trump's hush money trial set to commence in just four days. it includes stormy daniels, the porn star at the heart of the cases, who was paid $130,000 to stay silent about her affair with donald trump in the weeks before the 2016 presidential election. karen doog the, the play mate also paid to keep mum about her fair with the ex-president. david pecker is back, the former ceo of the company that owned the national inquirer. he spear headed the catch and kill scheme designed to suppress stories that made donald trump look wad. he agreed to act as the eyes and

ears of the 2016 trump presidential campaign. and then there's michael cohen, whose payments to stormy daniels were allegedly concealed as legal expenses 34 different times. constituting 34 felony counts. the district attorney sees him as a tour guide to the entire case. and then there's hope hix, a trump aid who cohen says was involved in negotiating the hush money payments. so that's the prosecution's list. on the defense side, at least two potential witnesses showing up there today is the ex-president himself. trump has often said he's willing to testify anywhere rksz any time in any of the cases he's faced over the years. whether he actually testifies remains to be seen. but whether or not the ex-president takes the stand, he's desperate to prevent this trial from ever starting. on wednesday, he was handed his third legal defeat this week

alone. of that, "the new york times" reports this. quote, nearly a dozen legal experts contacted for this article strained to recall any other defendant filing three emergency appeals in three days. most called it unpris dented. one called it silliness. we are also waiting to hear from the judge on trump's request that the judge recuse himself from the case. it's expected to be another loss for team trump. as the time reports, ethics experts have said that justice merchan does not need to step aside, and the judge has previously declined to recuse himself noting that a panel concluded he had no real conflict. the losses piling up for trump as his first criminal trial takes shape is where we begin with some of our favorite reporters and friends. former attorney harry lit man is is here. with me at the table susan craig is back. senior executive editor at

bloomberg opinion tim o'brien is here. and "new york times" board member who has been up since "morning joe" is at the table. sue craig, i start with you. i have always benefitted yours because these facts i find them so, they are the trumpest crimes that we have covered since he exploded on to the scene. and the characters are some people in our industries that have an aversion to this case and these facts because of the sorted nature of them. i don't know what it says about me that i do not, but i think that this is so obvious that watching the story -- and again, we have no idea what the jurors will decide. we have no idea if trump will be found guilty of any of this, but the story that will be told is about sex with a porn star and a

fixer -- michael cohen, he is central casting. he paid off the porn star, kept it quiet. in the ten wous days after the "access hollywood" tape, take us back in time. >> the other thing that stands out to me, it's the national inquirer piece of it. >> which we keep skipping. >> i used to go to the supermarket with my mom and you always heard they paid for stories and in this case they didn't pay for a story. normally in journalism how it works is people come to with a story and they say are you interested. it's either yes or no, but no money is exchanged. this was one of the tabloids that paid for stories. so if stormy daniels came to them and said i have a story but i want $100,000 and they would pay for it. but in this case, she did that

and they paid to kill it. and that's sort of the third ut ration. and i think david pecker is going to be a really important witness. we keep hearing michael cohen. he is going to be a narrater for the government. there's no question about that. but people like david pecker are going to come in and they are going to have had conversations with michael cohen. in one instance, ask karen is going to be a witness, she's the play mate that's said she had a long-term affair with donald trump. in that case, ami made a payment to keep her silent. they bought her story. in exchange for the money, they agreed to run two articles by her as part of her agreement and she agreed not to talk about anything that she ever had to do with donald trump. and david pecker's case, he's paid a fine to the federal elections commission for his role in that for election interference. so he's going to be a very

interesting witness. it's much larger than just michael cohen's role in this. there were other people and david pecker agreed he was going to be the eyes and ears of the campaign. anything incoming to the national inquirer would be relayed to michael cohen and donald trump. that's going to be a big piece of this case as we move forward. >> remind me the role that hope hix played. >> back in 2016, she was one of donald trump's closest advisers, and also in 2016 when he was run ing and i i would need to get ahold of him. hope hix was always the go between. she was in most meetings. so she's going to have seen some of this. i think will testify to what she sw. she's going to have been in the room during some of of this. >> my brain has been forced to

compartmentalize. hope hix's text after january 6th were made public. she bemoans they are all trying to move on with their life because trump lost. they are going to be viewed as terrorists. there's a sliver of my brain that thinks some of theme peas are going to be witnesses in a criminal trial about trump's payments to a porn star. the other is is it couldn't happen to a better lot. what do you mauk of the band coming back together? >> you can never really move on from donald trump. i think that's the hard lesson. reportersen can't either, as sue can attest to. it's this sort of poisoned, trashy, ecosystem is. and the people who gravitate in the direct circle, he has an eye for people who are marks for being persuaded to exist in his orbit and carry out his bidding. and since he became president,

the consequences of everything he did were larger. so there's long tale people looking a at things and trying to hold him accountable. so anyone who existed in the choir in the past has to sing again. and in a way, i feel that's what they should have to go through. what he did was consequential. what's interesting to me about the energy around this week and the last week as well and these repeated efforts to delay the case is he is fundamentally scared of something here. in a way that the bravado he used to have when he moved through the new york courts, this is a cosmic and epic new york moment. it has every seedy and interesting part of new york in full display with one of the most crypt keeper of new york

crazy donald trump being put on trial. and i think it's the least consequential, easily the criminal trials he he faces. and given that his history on x and performance during the new york state attorney's case did not serve him well. the idea that he could use this case as campaigned toer it's dawning on him he has something deep to lose here. when there's these polls saying trump voters may not be that affect, they are not the voters that matter. what matters are moderate and independent voters who are going to be turned off by the facts that are going to be revisiting on this case. >> this is the only criminal trial he isn't running on. he's running on the facts. what he's charged w he's running on. he talks about presidential records. he talks about the things that he had. >> he believes he was entitled

to do it. >> correct. on the insurrection he incited, he starts his rallies with an ode to the jailed insurrectionists who beat cops. so this is the only set of facts he's charged with criminally that he's been running on. >> i think that's completely true. but i think that what he is running on is i'm a victim just like you. and the system puts me in -- >> caught paying off a porn star. >> i'm a victim. i actually think all of the facts travel beyond the consciousness of his supporters. because the leader of their cult is being persecuted and he stands between them and the abyss. and he's essentially being penalized for being their defender. and i think there's nothing swaying his most devoted followers from that point of view. but i think i am just curious if we're going to see evidence entered in this trial that hasn't been public yet. that he and his lawyers are aware of that goes well beyond the fact there's a tape recording of him saying, i talked to allen weisselberg

about arranging this payment. there's a tape here just like in the georgia case that's very incriminating. but i wonder if there's more beyond this that we're thot fully aware of that explains this rabid effort to postpone the start of the trial. >> it's a very focused effort by trump standards. he's always trying to make something not happen. trying to not leave after he loses the election and trying to not be held accountable for his alleged crimes even though he's running on them and denies the facts. this one is dimpbts. and i i wonder if you think a piece of evidence he doesn't want out there.

these facts and these threats are abundantly clear to donald trump. >> yeah, i agree, but i do think there's more. cohen's tape is pretty quick. it's elliptical. i think hope hix is going to be a dvastating witness. she will be so credible. but she's present for all these conversations, and ushd the rules of evidence, anything trump says is fair game. so there are the underlying facts that i think he's desperate to hide, but there's just something vivid where we have all been saying for weeks this one won't have such an impact. the latest poll suggests maybe it will. but i just think there's something really theatrical and real at the same time about him and the chair, here comes hope hix, his former trusted aid to testify fwens him.

here's what susan had to say about pecker. it just really drives it home. he's not trying to litigate the facts so much and he's embarrassed of them. amazing thing, trump embarrassed of anything, but he is litigating themes. a theme of bias and victimhood. especially with the judge, and all of new york. that's why theyed to change the venue. i think those rhetorical points will roll over. you'll see next week before we get to the evidence of very contention juror selection process, where his council will say this one and that one can't be fair and the judge is making rulings against him. that's the refrain you will sound again and again. >> so some of the websites are public people that we have all seen and heard from. but not recently. so i want to put up for our viewers one of the witnesses.

this is keith davidson. and this is keith davidson tying the timing of access is hollywood to the hush money paymentouts. >> you cannot talk about the set is thement without talking about the "access hollywood" tape and really that was the catalyst. >> and is what was happening, like take me back. stormy essentially doesn't get paid she's getting upset is. >> there was a lengthy contract that was signed and executed. there was a funding deadline and the funding dead line was missed. so the contract was cancelled. there was no deal and it was shortly after that contract was missed that the "access hollywood" tape aired, and it was almost immediately after the "access hollywood" tape aired the settlement came back on and then there was a second agreement that was signed and reexkutsed. >> i don't know that trump made

any lengthy contracts as president. but with the keeping quiet, there was a lengthy contract that was signed and executed. and a funding deadline. at least in her view an airtight business deal that they almost fell through on. >> just to back up for a moment here, one of the frustrating things about when you talk to prosecutors, prosecuting corruption cases or reporters reporting on corruption cases, sue knows this well, the public, you can't always get the public's attention right away until you have something that they immediately understand that resinates with them. and i think part of what is making this case so problematic for donald trump and seems to get under his skin is everyone in america understands what a porn star is and what it means to try to pay off a porn star ahead of an election when there are looming questions about your relationship not just your

personal relationships with women, this is a man who has been accused of sexual assault, let's remember, but also your views on abortion and abortion rights. so all of this is is actually very much tied together donald trump years before becoming president was involved in a world in which he acted with complete inpunty. he had a fixer. he was violating all kinds of new york laws it seems. and he had an entire world to help him do so. this is peeling the onion back on that. as tim said, the stakes are different when you're president. so i'm very interested to see the reaction of voters. as we see this trial shs the case being made, the question here is going to become not just what doe don't we know about, there maybe some surprise there is that could account for his concern about seeing this trial come to fruition. but also just there maybe more american who is say actually

he's not just like me. when you cover new york government, you get a weekly sheet of city employees who you have never heard of who violated an ethics code. so the department of sanitation worker who took a dump truck two blocks too far to stop and get mcdonald's at lunch. he's fined. his name is publicly released. he's embarrassed. yet here we have the former president of the united states saying he should get away with this and much more. so that thread is about to come undone for donald trump. i think that's part of what he's worried about here. >> that's such a smart point. i want to show more of the witnesses and what donald trump is like on the stand. his name today is on the defense witness list. no one is dwoing anywhere. we have to sneak in a quick break. when we come back, republicans are on the defense again over abortion health care access trying to distract and confuse and lie. but in reality, there's no one

on the planet to blame but donald trump and republican elected officials. we'll talk about that. we'll also hear from amanda, who has decided to tell her personal tragedy of losing the daughter she was pregnant with of her life under texas' abortion ban. she's out campaigning for president biden. she says there's nothing more important now than staying on this issue. we will do that. later in the broadcast, so much on the line heading into election season, trump and his allies move to further spread the big lie. there are some fighting back for the sake of the american people and the truth. we'll have all those stories and more, when "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. tinues after k break. don't go anywhere. holding me bag the things i loved. until, i found a bladder specialist that offered me bulkamid - a life-changing and fda approved non-drug solution for my condition called stress incontinence it really works,

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the president of the united states thus wrote a personal check for the payment of hush money as part of a criminal scheme to violate campaign finance laws. you can find the details of that scheme directed by mr. trump in the pleadings in the u.s. district court for the southern district of new york. so picture this scene. in february of 2017, one month into his presidecy, i'm visiting president trump in the oval office for the first time. it's truly awe inspiring. he's showing me all around and pointing to different paintings he says to me something to the effect of, don't worry, michael.

your january and february reimbursement checks are coming. they were fedex from new york, and it takes awhile for that to get through the white house system. as he promised, i received the first check for the reimbursement of $70,000 not long thereafter. >> anyone that's worked in the white house will tell you that where he goes to so picture this scene and describes the checks to michael cohen to pay the porn star is when they slowly die a thousand deaths on the inside. this was the cover-up and in mark's telling of this, in the case that alvin bragg has charged, it connen standpointly reminds people this is also ab election interference case. this is about cheating and lying to the voters. not just people who didn't vote for him, but the people who did. >> that never is not jarring when you hear that. i think some of the witnesses

we're going to see are going to come forward. we're going to say some of the things that the checks were in there, but when you hear that, it's never not a shock to the system. >> talk about what they have done to corroborate that testimony. alvin bragg seems to have done meticulous work to protect and preempt the character assassination that is expected on michael cohen. >> i think that's going to be furious when it happens. we saw a glimpse of that, or saw it in full bloom during the civil trial when michael cohen testified. there were a lot of fire truck fireworks and a lot of allegations against him. they are going to come for him. but the case is more than this. i think that we talked about david pecker, and he's one piece of it. we're going to be bringing in hope hix, there's another employee from the national inquirer that's going to come in. all of these, if you imagine this is a jigsaw puzzle. these are pieces that alvin bragg is going to put together

to show the interis feerns and to show he's going to show donald trump's intent. keith davidson is another one that we mentioned. he's going to show that intent that once the "access hollywood" tape was released, the pressure on donald trump to make the payment to stormy daniels became even more intense. there was testimony that michael cohen was told to wait until after the election to make the payment and to make another one. all of this is going to come together in a picture of what alvin bragg is trying to put together with documents and other people cob rating it. >> we don't know which witnesses each side will call, but trump is on one of two witnesses on the defense list. let me show you some of how he's faired recently in depositions. >> i don't even know the woman. it's marla.

>> you say marla is in this photo. >> that's marla. that's my wife. >> here. >> that's e. jean carroll. >> so again, i think our viewers are familiar with that. he points to a picture and says it's marla, who he was married to, and it's e. jean carroll. >> he's so used to casually laying lying. he's in a deposition. there are consequences. he can't recognize his wife from decades in the past. nor the woman who is suing him for defamation and sexual assault. and donald trump on a witness stand or donald trump under oath is a dangerous place for his defense team to be. because he wilts under the fact pattern. and journalists who know how to interview him, if you corner him

in a place where he can't get away with these appeals to a motion, and he just has to specifically answer to very targeted questions around a fact pattern, did you lie about x, did you do y, what did you mean when you say this. he loses his temper. he has no self-discipline. he exaggerates. he's the case study -- he could be brought into any law school in the country around what you don't the your witness to do on the witness stand. and he doesn't listen to his own attorneys because he doesn't listen to anyone's advice. he's an unknown quantity. he can get himself into a lot of trouble than he's already in. my experience in a similar situation with him was our attorneys just kept pushing. he sued me for liable. >> about the size of his bank account. >> about how wealthy he was and

the idea he never exaggerated or lied about how much money he had. we just had a number of different examples of, well, you said you had this much as a speaking fee or sold a condo for this much. a relentless parade of facts that he couldn't contest and had to admit he was lying. if they want to try to undermine michael cohen as a witness by character assassination or undermining his credibility, at the end of the day, there's a tape recording. at the end of the day, there are checks. and what did michael cohen really have to gain out of saying this was away they were for and this is why i did it. i was his fixer. this was part of my role. i just don't know in front of a jury when they hear that tape or any other evidence they have to substantiate what he did, trump is not going to be helpful to them. >> i also think there's a disorienting reality, fake reality that we all live in.

it's our politics. and in our politics, which are so perverted and distorted, we talk about cohen's character assassination. that's because he has allies in the house republican the conference that were set is up to go out and attack him a courtroom is different. matt gaetz won't be in there. there will be lawyers and they will be asking questions. if the answers aren't truthful, anyone that lies could be charged with perjury. this is sort of a trump, matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene-free zone. >> for sure. they do have some things to go after, including a perjury conviction. but you're right. this happens in so many cases and the prosecution is used to saying, look, we have corroborated and did he seem credible. and back to trump, it's not

simply dangerous, it's a second by second train wreck and perjury fest. he cannot testify. i'm sticking to it. and i know you don't like it when i get legal, but it's really important to emphasize one point. if he doesn't testify, almost everything he's going to want to say can't come in. the rules are that the prosecution can take anything he said and present them, but he can't do it on the other side. if he testifies, he maybe can, but then he's subject to cross-examination on every one of the how many lies did "the washington post" find? 30, just pick your best. there's so much there. we're going to find out even if we heard it before. i want to give you a snippet. cohen says that around this conversation trump asked, well, since he won, we don't have to pay her now, right? talk about a vivid showing that, in fact, this was all about

interfering with the election. he can say that. the prosecution can say that. it came out of donald trump's mouth, donald trump's defense cannot unless he takes the stand, which he cannot do. >> there's no rule against lawyerly talking to me and our viewers. we welcome it. we love it. that's why you're here every day. thank you all so much for start ing us off. you're going to be there. >> early monday morning. i'll see you the at the table. >> can't wait. it's nothing to be glib about. if there's anything that's remarkable, it's that this is the team and these are the facts and this is the case that's going before a jury of trump's peers. when we come back, the republican spin has begun on the issue of abortion rights. forced to have to acknowledge the extreme positions popping

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arizona legislature after republicans there voted to adjourn blocking democrats efforts to pass laws to repeal the 1864 ban. nearly all abortions in the state of arizona. the vote to adjourn came despite arizona republicans themselves calling for the law to be repealed. arizona republicans have tied every excuse in the book and then some to try to deflect from the anger voters in arizona and all around the country are feeling after that state's highest court took them back 160 years. while still keeping abortion banned in the state, a dilemma that is dogged republicans at the national level. look no further than what's going on tease days on fox news. >> if you had to travel to state to get an abortion, it's not the worst thing in the world. hopefully this is a rare occurrence. >> the people on the left are so desperate, attacking trump now for an arizona supreme court ruling that upholds what is a

civil war era law banning abortion. this will be fixed in the next week or two. arizona's governor is a democrat. the state's attorney general is a democrat. the state legislature is almost evenly divided. if democrats you want to get rid of the law, you have a chance right now to get rid of it. >> we all know that hannity's talking to the democrats. he's trying to calm the wildfire taking over republicans. despite hannity's attempt to blame democrats for a decision coming out of the state court stacked with conservative justices apoiptded but their former republican governor, it's a decision that was only possible because republican president donald trump made good on his promise to only appoint supreme court justices who would definitely overturn roe. voters aren't buying it. >> directly, i blame donald

trump for the recalling of roe v. wade. that's what started this. that's for sure. >> i blame the republicans for this. >> it's hard not to blame the person who back in 2015 really started this hateful movement and donald trump has been at the center of that. >> joining our coverage, amanda is back. she was the lead plaintiff in an abortion ban lawsuit in texas. she's now an advocate for abortion rights campaigning in key battleground states for president biden's reelection. we talk about you all the time. i really think you changed the conversation in had this country. i think when i see women coming out with their most painful tragedies to help other women, i think about you and i remember asking you why and how you told your story and you said that was why. and here you are on the campaign trail. i saw your ad. it breaks me. we played it. just first, tell me what the

campaign trail is like for you. >> thank you for having me back. it's great to be back. it's been a whirlwind. we kicked it off yesterday in north carolina. one of the most critical battleground states in this election. and it's really invigorating and really motivating. there's a lot of support. people are fired up. i think it's going to turn out voters this year, which is critical, especially in states like north carolina and wisconsin, where i'm headed next week. it's been a really great start. we still have a lot of work to do. >> there's no corner of this country that is that has proven hospitable to the extremist policies that republicans led by donald trump are advocating. is there any limit? has the campaign asked you to go to places where you're like, you want me to go there? tell me what your plans are for the next several months. >> to answer your first question, no, there's no limit.

i will stop at nothing to make sure we reelect president biden. this is the most important thing on my plate right now. i recognize that this is something that i can do. i'm privileged in a number of ways. it's not the same for lots of other folks. people who don't have the same financial resources. people of color, i know it's a lot more difficult for them to speak out. i get that. it's a very real fear. but this is critical. as i said, it's the most important thing to me right now. so i'll stop at nothing. whatever it takes. i'll be there. >> i want to show our viewers some of the ad that you filmed for the biden campaign. >> this is one of our willow boxes. this is just film philled with some of the things we had started gathering for her while i was pregnant. >> yep. >> there's her little baby book.

this is the outfit she was going to maybe wear home from the hospital. her little footprints. >> it's okay. >> how are you? >> thanks for asking. it's not easy to watch. i have seen it many times. it's emotional. it's difficult. i am very outspoke. i have been doing this for awhile, but i think one of the things that people forget is that at the heart of all of this

is the loss of a child. so it's difficult, but it's really impactful. it's important. that's why we made that ad. >> it's so universal too. anyone who is pregnant has been through these rituals. you play a game of, well, ien don't want to jinx it, but certainly by 18 weeks, which is how long you carried your daughter will low, you have those things. and that you break down talking a about the little footprints. anyone that's ever done that, it breaks me every time i see it. and i wonder what you're hearing on the campaign trail. this is such an extraordinary moment for the country. you're out there fighting for a candidate who is dwoing to try to give back a right that existed your whole lifetime. it's existed for 50 years. what kind of connections are you

making out there? >> it's been extraordinary. a very, very kind woman came up to me yesterday in north carolina. she was 80 years old. and she shared her own story that was almost identical to mine. except she had to get an abortion. it was illegal. she went into septic shock and she thanked me for speaking out. she said i'm sure you're tired of people saying thank you, and the truth is i'm not. i never will be. stories like that are the reason why i'm here. and they are what keep going and keep me motivated. it is my name and my face that you hear quite a bit, but i'm not just telling my story. i'm telling the story of thousands of other people who have been through something similar or afraid they will go through something similar. so the connections and community are just extraordinarily beautiful. they are what keep me going. >> we're going to keep this going.

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your record label is taking off. but so is your sound engineer. you need to hire. i need indeed. indeed you do. indeed instant match instantly delivers quality candidates matching your job description. visit indeed.com/hire why would i use kayak to compare matchhundreds of travel ption. sites at once? i like to do things myself. i can't trust anything else to do the job right. kayak... aaaaaaaahhhh kayak. search one and done. because of donald trump, millions of women lost a fundamental freedom to control their own bodies and now women's lives are in danger because of that. the question is, if donald trump gets back in power, what freedom will you lose next? your body and your decisions belong to you. not the government.

not donald trump. i will fight like hell to get your freedom back. >> an extraordinary. it's the starkest contrast in a season of incredibly stark contrasts. this one requires really not much more information than that. it's probably why it's polling as high as it is. >> it's so visceral that not only does half the population has a uterus, but this is about a freedom that's been take away, a right that's been taken away. we don't talk enough about this moment in those terms. it's directly related to democracy. we have been in a period in which our democracy was an expansion. and we were starting to see the fruits of pluristic democracy. and now we're in the midst of a backlash to that. that's what the trump president sit was. and i think there are many

people in this country who maybe not affected directly by the fall of roe, but they may say to themselves, well, i just don't believe that we should be taking right was from americans. you have libertarians and republicans who feel that way as well. so i don't think that this plays well. an old adage in politics, people want to know what government is going to do for them. that's an unpopular position with the majority of the american public, as is the position on abortion and reproductive freedom in general. you see that that in ballot measure after ballot measure. one of the questions here, and one developing story is that we're going to see likely it looks like in arizona and also florida a ballot measure proposing to enshrine abortion rights in the state constitutions. that happened in michigan and other states, and it drove massive turnout in favor of the democratic party. republicans know that this is a losing issue. and i do think it is a moment to

also remember that as depressing and hard as this can be and as painful as it is and how much suffering has gone on, it's hard to take in. at the same time just to give a little bit of hope for a moment, there are more americans who actually believe in women's reproductive freedom, in a woman's right to control her own body, than don't. and i think we should remember that. and there's power in numbers. and this is still a democracy. so you know, it's not time to get so demoralized that you give up. this is a good moment to keep voting. >> it's such a good -- and amanda, i have to imagine that's your thought when you sort of take everything you've been through and put it out there for the country. i believe that 81% is the number of americans who believe abortion should be a decision made between a woman and her doctor. i believe it's over 70% that believe abortion should be legal in all or most instances. those numbers have never been higher. the tragedy of course is that we had to lose the right to value

it so much. but what is your sense? are you optimistic that if the facts are before the country that this issue and these freedoms will be returned by someone like president bide en? >> oh, absolutely. i could not agree more. i think people are feeling extremely motivated and energized on this issue alone. i'm very confident that folks will come out in november and vote on this issue. and you know, i really believe that we're going to re-elect president biden and he's quite frankly the only candidate who will protect our bodily autonomy and restore our rights. so i'm very optimistic. >> amanda, it's an extraordinary thing that you've done here. we love getting to talk to you. we'll continue to cover you. your turn on the presidential campaign trail. thank you for telling your story and coming and talking to us. mara gay, thank you. every time you're at the table it's a pleasure. >> thanks for having me, nicolle. >> thank you. another break for us. we'll be right back. eak for us we'll be right back.

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it's what my family is all about. i thought i knew a lot about our irish roots. i was surprised to learn so many more things from ancestry. 1892. oh and here's the boat they came over on. there was a julie healy, a mary healy, this is all their names? yes, yes. wow. the biden administration today moving to close what is commonly referred to as the gun show loophole, requiring anyone engaged in the business of selling guns at a profit to register as a federally licensed firearms dealer and run background criminal and mental health checks on buyers. that will include not only gun shows but flea markets and online sales as well. it could be the largest expansion to federal background checks with the doj saying it will affect more than 23,000 unlicensed gun dealers and tens of thousands of gun sales every

year. in his announcement of the new regulation president joe biden called on congress to do their part and, quote, finish the job and pass universal background check legislation now. those changes are set to affect -- take effect in a month. up next for us here, how the big lie spreads and what's being done to fight back against it right now by those running for office. the next hour of "deadline: white house" starts after a quick break. don't go anywhere. nywhere. adult. it should be called wiffle tennis. pickle! yeah, aw! whoo! ♪♪ these guys are intense. we got nothing to worry about. with e*trade from morgan stanley, we're ready for whatever gets served up. dude, you gotta work on your trash talk. i'd rather work on saving for retirement. or college, since you like to get schooled. that's a pretty good burn, right? got him. good game. thanks for coming to our clinic, first one's free.

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at customink.com ♪ what a feeling! ♪ i have confidence in the security of this election because i know the work that we've done for four years in support of our state and local partners. i know the work that the intelligence community has done, that the department of defense has done, that the fbi has done, that my team has done. i know that these systems are more secure. i know based on what we have seen that any attacks on the election were not successful.

if i can reinforce or confirm for one person that the vote was secure, that the election was secure, then i feel like i've done my job. >> hi, everyone. it's now 5:00 in new york. any conversation about election security has to start right here, right? not with opinion, not with the metastasizing impacts of the big lie but with the fact that in 2020 according to chris krebs, a lifelong republican, voters chose president joe biden over donald trump fair and square in the, quote, most secure election in america's history. full stop. should have been the end of the story. but because someone wouldn't or couldn't accept that truth four years later here we are, still fighting against an alternate, fabricated, dangerous non-reality. this afternoon it's as clear as ever that the problem in america around this is getting worse, not better. look no further than the republican national committee. it's co-chaired by lara trump,

who just last month suggested her party was past litigating the 2020 election. recently, though, on her behalf the rnc sent out a robo call to voters promoting unfounded claims of voter fraud. we're not going to waste your time or our airwaves playing the call. after all, it is, as you would predict, the same old tired song and dance, b.s., like unsecured ballot drop boxes, dead people voting, blah, blah, blah. and despite what you heard again at the top of the show from lifelong republican donald trump's own national security official chris krebs that 2020 was the most secure election in american history -- by the way, it's a contention that got him fired by donald trump. mar-a-lago will host maga's main event tomorrow, and that is dual remarks from donald trump and house speaker mike johnson on the topic of, quote, election integrity. as if we're meant to broadcast such a clown show as an actual news event. the good news, and luckily there

is some today, is that advocates for the truth are pushing back on trump's attempts to recast history to his liking. take judge tanya chutkan, for one. she's the one overseeing the federal january 6th case brought by special counsel jack smith. yesterday in a sentencing hearing for a man convicted of storming the capitol judge chutkan took exception to the idea that jailed defendants charged with violent crimes are somehow hostages like trump suggests. from the associated appreciation quote, they're being kept there because they are dangerous people, chutkan said. chutkan rolled her eyes and shook her head when she learned from a prosecutor during wednesday's hearing that the vigil's organizers refer to their gathering spot outside the jail as, quote, freedom corner. is that what it's called? freedom corner? the judge asked. sounding incredulous. it's more than just turning words around. it's more than semantics. it's separating truth from lies, something the rest of us are going to need to do more of and

more aggressively for the good of the country as november's election nears. it's where we start this hour. some of our favorite experts and friends. msnbc sxrisht columnist charlie sykes is here, plus former republican congressman, now msnbc political analyst david jolly's here. and former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee tim heaphy's book. tim, here's who judge chutkan was referring to. here's what the people trump calls hostages did. these were the defendants being held pretrial. daniel ball is charged with assaulting law enforcement and throwing an explosive device. john banuelos is accused of firing a gun during the capitol attack. edward kelly is charged with plotting to murder fbi employees after his release in the january 6 case. dominic box, this is another one that trump calls a hostage, was arrested on dui charge while out on pretrial release in his january 6th case. edward richmond jr. previously killed an iraqi civilian yet had

an ar-15 in his home. and taylor taranto showed up at president barack obama's home with guns and ammo after trump posted president barack obama's home address. these are the folks trump starts every rally honoring and lifting up and calling hostages. what is -- again, trump's not going to change. it's not a conversation about trump. what is the job, what is the task for the rest of us in making sure that the truth at least has a fighting chance against the lies? >> yeah, nicolle, who -- i appreciate that last graphic. and it reinforces what judge chutkan said, which these are the worst of the worst. right? there's a spectrum of relative culpability of people who were at the capitol on january 6th. there were people who were there and trespassed and went into the building for a short period of time and left. they've been prosecuted as they

should be. but then there are people that assaulted police officers, people that destroyed property, people that were organizing to commit acts of violence to disrupt the joint session, seditious conspiracy. he is upholding the far end of that spectrum, the most seriously dangerous people who are held in prison because they're either a danger to the community or a risk of flight as patriots, and to suggest they are somehow hostages, judge chutkan was incredulous, as america should be. these are not patriots. these are not hostages. these are people that have committed heinous acts of violence and are so dangerous that they must be held in prison. what can the rest of us do? pay attention to facts. we talk about that on the show all the time. facts should matter. as these facts play out again and again in different forums, and ideally in a criminal courtroom, my hope is that they

resonate and the false narrative that you're hearing now from lara trump and others is rebutted by truth. >> so charlie, let me start this part of the conversation with something that really jolted me. it was said on this show by maria ressa, who is a nobel peace prize winner. she went back to the philippines and stood up for what tim's talking about, the truth and the right to cover and knock downlies during duterte's administration. let me show you what she said about the addictive nature of disinformation. >> remember yuri and ronoff, who's a former kgb chairman, former head of the ussr. he said -- and this is the role of disinformation. he said disinformatsiya is like cocaine, you take it once or twice you're okay, but if you take it all the time you're a changed man, person. we're on cocaine.

i hate to say that coming from the drug -- but you know, we are weak, addicted. >> addicted. >> and we must find our solution. so how do we deal with this? understand that you're being manipulated, that you do not have agency and it isn't just foreign influence operations or even your own political power plays that are happening, it is also the tech that is connecting you. >> it's a daunting -- when she puts it that way. the forces on the side of disinformation are as powerful and addictive as cocaine in her telling. >> right. and donald trump has forced this obsession on the republican party. and i don't know how many people actually believe the lie. but at some point there's not much difference between pretending to believe something and then actually believing it.

and i wonder what point we're at here. what do we do about this? i think part of what you do is you lay out the facts but also you connect the dots that you just laid out. there's real cognitive dissonance in listening to donald trump describe the people you had up on that screen as patriots, as law-abiding freedom fighters, and making his embrace of them central to his campaign. and you know, even people like karl rove have said this is a tremendous mistake, this is political malpractice, because when you begin to point out what these individuals did, the attack on the police officers, the viciousness of their assault on the u.s. capitol, and then you juxtapose that with donald trump's rhetoric and frankly, unless you are deep, deep in the maga kool-aid you're going to see the dissonance there. there's something not right about that. but it is interesting that with donald trump right now between mike johnson and the rnc, they are all in on relitigating the

2020 campaign and trying to red-con the january 6th attack on the capitol. that's the issue they decided to make central to their campaign. and i think that's going to be something that needs to be prosecuted by -- not just by the democrats but by people of goodwill and by journalists over the next year. >> well, just take fox news, david jolly. i think that the facts about who donald trump calls hostages are probably irrelevant to, i don't know, laura ingraham or i don't know who's on at 8:00 anymore. the new tucker carlson. or maybe -- i don't know who the extremists are. i know bret baier and martha mccallum are serious journalists. you don't need everybody on prime time at fox to be horrified by the conduct of the hostages. you just need people who are still journalists to communicate even to that audience that these are not hostages, these are

violent criminals. and i say that because i think there is a political point to what trump's doing. he wants to convince his base of something so distant to reality to discourage and tire and sort of decimate enthusiasm of the democratic coalition, saying we're not going to lose on this, we're going to win on this. but he's talking to a shrinking pool of people. and to answer charlie's question, i had the numbers in front of me. i think 81% of trump's hardcore base believe the lies. that number's up from actually on january -- 81% of trump's strong supporters believe biden won the 2020 election because of fraud. 51% of republicans. 58% of his most fervent supporters believe the lies. and those lies went before 61 judges, a lot of them -- some of them trump appointees. he lost 60 cases. i mean, the lies were adjudicated. by bill barr first who couldn't find any -- the facts are so

plain. but the fact his fervent base is becoming more addicted to the lie is not politically important in terms of the numbers. how do you make sure that fact stays out there? >> with the numbers within the republican party where they are on believing the big lie it really is now a self-affirmation feedback loop between donald trump the candidate and the party. and charlie's point is exactly right. it doesn't matter if they really believe it or if they just pretend to believe it. i think for serious journalists but also for honest brokers who are voters and participate in today's democracy shame plays an important role. and i know that's somewhat -- we should be cautious to reach for it. but look, given the amount of disinformation being sown by donald trump and laura trump and mike johnson and fox news opinion hosts primetime, there's nothing more for vladimir putin to do in this election. the foreign actors who want to

interfere in our election, their purpose is to cause distrust, to cause confusion, to sow misinformation. it's not necessarily to pick the candidate. well, guess who's sowing the disinformation right now. one of our mainstream candidates, or previously a mainstream party's nominee, donald trump, lara trump, the speaker of the house, mike johnson. so i think for silver minds you really have to shame them not just for the disinformation but for the danger. this disinformation was the predicate for a violent insurrection just four years ago. there were three elements to the violent insurrection. it was the big lie. it was the disinformation. that's the first one. the second was the invitation to come to washington. and the third was to go to the capitol with strength. this is what they're now doing. they are saying you cannot trust the 2024 election. that's what vladimir putin wants america to be crippled by. donald trump is doing it himself? it's dangerous. it's absolutely dangerous. it's dangerous for donald trump and lara trump. and i think shame plays a role in this not just for the candidates but for republican

activists down the line that peddle this crap. >> and peddle this crap they do. they plan to do some peddling tomorrow at mar-a-lago. tim heaphy, if you talk a little about -- what trump did on january 6th was hijack the sets. right? he used the white house as a set. not to serve the country, not to run the country but he wanted the pentagon to seize voting machines. he had mike flynn and the pillow person and the overstock person there to plot a coup. but he's obsessed with the sets and the optics. tomorrow the set is mar-a-lago. the actor is the speaker of the house. just talk about his manipulation of settings and seemingly normal official political figures. >> yeah, that's a really good point and an interesting point. when he got to the ellipse the morning of january 6th his first focus was on the relatively sparse crowd that was inside the magnetometers. there are a lot of people that were standing outside the magnetometers because they were

armed and they had items that would not be able to be -- admit them through the gates. and his first consideration that morning was the optics and the shot, and he consistently goes to that. things like that are really -- they're transparently exposed his intention. it is all about image and bluster. and similarly, when you look at the motivation for the big lie, it is almost always, nicolle, followed shortly by a fund-raising pitch. the reason that this continues to come out of his mouth and others is that it is -- unfortunately continues to be successful. it is a big fraud. it is a big grift in addition to being a big lie. the former president has been a businessperson his entire life. we the select committee introduced a lot of information about that incessant fund-raising on those false representations of election

fraud. it's amazing more americans don't see that they are essentially being suckered with this big lie in attempts to get their $100 contribution that goes to the save america pac. it's the obsession with image, it's the consistent fund-raising that i think reveals the true intent here. and again, i'm hopeful that americans see that, jurors see that, and that voters ultimately see that. >> tomorrow's installation, charlie sykes is a scene of donald trump at mar-a-lago summoning the house speaker who liz cheney describes as a, quote, enabler of the insurrection and a, quote, architect of the effort to disqualify the actual result of the 2020 election, the actual credible and secure victory of president joe biden. this is being pitched as an election integrity event. and this is so far-fetched, what's up is down, this is the

opposite of that. what are your thoughts as this gets pitched and tried to be sort of spoon-fed to the media? >> well, first of all, it's a continuation of the politics of abasement. donald trump loves nothing more than having powerful republicans come and bend the knee and kiss the ring down in mar-a-lago. and he's flexing his muscles. and i suppose by the way we ought to point out how interesting it is that the speaker of the house of representatives who's struggling to save his job feels the need to go down to mar-a-lago to kiss that ring on the friday before donald trump's felony trial begins. this is again -- we need to keep all of these things in the frame here. but i'm old enough to remember when the speaker of the house of representatives was a powerful individual. but now the most powerful members of the house of representatives are matt gaetz, marjorie taylor greene, donald trump, and then there's mike johnson. and we have no doubt where the power really rests.

what's interesting there, though, is that what's on display is not just donald trump's dominance but also the source of all of the dysfunction and disarray of the republican party because you think of all the long knives that are out between those individuals, all of the chaos, all of the dysfunction between all of those folks and they're all maga and yet they're all shiving one another. it would be entertaining if the stakes were not so huge because the fate of ukraine lies in the balance. the fate of our intelligence authorities lie in the balance. what & what are we going to get? we're going to get another mar-a-lago clown show. >> we are indeed. charlie and david, stick around. they'll be back later in the hour. tim heaphy, thank you for starting us off this hour. when we come back we'll pick up on a point charlie just made. we'll talk about what speaker mike johnson's stunt at mar-a-lago tomorrow says about republicans in the house as far right extremists look to throw the party into further chaos ahead of the november elections. new york congressman dan goldman will be our guest.

plus dire warnings today about how autocrats jail their opponents. what the putin playbook tells us about what could happen here. and what happened when the gerald ford presidential foundation ruled out giving liz cheney its annual public service medal. a top trustee resigned accusing the foundation of cowardice in the face of potential retaliation by the disgraced ex-president. we'll have that story later in the hour. "deadline: white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. inues after a. don't go anywhere. hi, what's y? this is our new friend. we'll talk about it later, ok? (♪♪) what does a cat need? -chewy's here. (♪♪) [smash] (♪♪) no, no, no, no. that good? hey, wait, come back. (♪♪) is this normal? ask the chewy vet team. how much is too much catnip? for everything you need and everything you need to know. find it at chewy. at st. jude, the mission is just something that everyone can truly get behind. look at our little st. jude pin there on the fridge!

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ex-president for a lifeline to save him and his caucus from their own very low standards for politics, the inability to govern and the chaos of yet another speaker election. if the most extreme members of the republican caucus succeed in ousting johnson. this is in politico today, quote, don't expect a full-on lovefest. for one trump is very close with marjorie taylor greene, and the bigger issue is that mike johnson still has a legislative minefield to navigate and trump's opinion of the embattled speaker could certainly change, even his inner circle admits. joining us now, democratic congressman daniel goldman of new york. so what do you make of what's behind speaker johnson's pilgrimage to mar-a-lago? >> well, it's very clear as we saw this week when donald trump sent out a message on social media to kill fisa and then 20 republicans voted down the rule to prevent it from even coming to the floor for debate, that

donald trump controls the house republican party. and mike johnson is stuck between a rock and a hard place. because he's in a position where he actually has to govern and donald trump and donald trump's minions in the house have no desire to govern, they have no ability to govern, they have no interest in governing. and so mike johnson realizes that he has to placate donald trump in order to actually do any of the bare minimum business in the house of representatives. so he will do what he can, i suppose, but we've seen this happen before. and there is -- there's no good outcome that comes when you have to negotiate with donald trump. >> yeah. and liz cheney calls mike johnson one of the architects of the january -- of the efforts behind overturning the election, the enabler of january 6th and donald trump's conduct. just describe how he's tried to,

your word, govern as speaker and how that's complicated by his past errands for donald trump. >> well, look, mike johnson has realized how different it is to be the speaker of the house than a back bencher from a very conservative district in louisiana where your vote is not that significant to the grand scheme of things. now he actually has to lead the house. and congress has several things that it is responsible for doing, including funding the government. now, mike johnson basically tied his whole lot into just keeping the government funded. we have done nothing else of anything significance in the entire time that he has been speaker. and in order to do that he has had to rely on democrats because the majority of house republicans have voted against the appropriations bills and the continuing resolutions that would fund the government.

that's the bare minimum, nicolle. and so now he's stuck because he clearly knows, we all know from the classified briefings that if ukraine does not get more funding that it will lose this war to vladimir putin. vladimir putin, a dictator, will conquer a democratic country in ukraine. this will be the first time since world war ii that any fascist or authoritarian government has physically overtaken and conquered a democratic ally, and it will be on mike johnson's hands because if we don't pass this bill for ukraine mike johnson and this house republican party and donald trump, who is leading the charge here, will be responsible for vladimir putin winning this war. if we do fund ukraine, they can and will win the war. so this is a binary decision right now. and mike johnson is stuck because he's being threatened to be removed if he actually does

promote democracy around the world by supporting just with money, not troops on the ground, our democratic ally. and then if he is vacated then all chaos rolls out, nicolle. and at some point we're going to have to ask the question if marjorie taylor greene or others go forward and remove him from being speaker, the question to ask is which two republicans are going to realize that their own party is dysfunctional and chaotic and will vote for hakeem jeffries to be speaker of the house to allow the democrats to actually do the work for the american people because we are clearly the only ones capable of doing that. >> you know, it's important i think that you put the stakes that clearly and that bluntly. and i wonder with your perspective from impeachment one, what was your reaction when you saw two current elected officials, two current house republicans say yeah, my party has been taken over by russian

disinformation? i mean, that's what mike johnson is dealing with. that's what you as democrats are trying to navigate around. it's ludicrous, but i wonder now that it's out in the open if it's easier to do what you just said, peel off two republicans to support a speaker jeffries. >> yeah, at some point. and it's notable who those republicans are because they are chairmen of committees of international and foreign policy and intelligence committees who know better than anyone what the truth is, what the dangers are and who our allies are. and for them to validate what i and so many others have been saying for so long is a major, major thing that he with need to pay close attention to. the reality is we've seen it in the oversight committee, this entire impeachment investigation has been one big russian propaganda exercise from start to finish and there seems to be, even though the republicans know

it, they seem not to care on that committee. but in more serious committees where our national security is at stake, where our intelligence is revealed, then these chairmen understand, these republican chairmen understand that russia is our adversary, russia is trying to undermine our democracy just as it's doing with ukraine, and the fact that a wannabe dictator like donald trump has captured the republican party to such a degree that they go along with his support for a despot and tyrannical fascist dictator like vladimir putin is just the tip of the iceberg but is so shocking in its effort to undermine democracy not only in russia and ukraine but here at home. and that is what is at stake this november. >> congressman dan goldman, thank you very much for spending time with us on this today. when we come back, on a day that we learned that russian opposition leader alexey navalny

wrote a memoir before his death in a russian prison, time may be running out for another prominent critic of vladimir putin's as fears grow about how authoritarian leaders exact receipt rip yoougs on their political opponents. that story's next. political opp. that story's next. [street noise] [car door shuts] [paparazzi taking pictures] introducing, ned's plaque psoriasis. ned, ned, who are you wearing? he thinks his flaky red patches are all people see otezla is the #1 prescribed pill to treat plaque psoriasis.

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next week marks two months since the free world woke up to the tragic news that putin critic alexey navalny had died in a siberian prison at the age of 47, a death, a murder quite possibly, considered to have

putin's fingerprints all over it. silencing a dictator's critics, or poisoning them or murdering them or threatening their family is the kremlin's calling card. it is now straight out of every dictator's playbook. but even in death alexey navalny and the grassroots pro-democracy movement he set in motion and inspired cannot be silenced or stopped. we saw it in the outpouring after his death in russia, where simply laying a wreath of flowers on a memorial could get someone arrested. and soon the world will get another powerful reminder of navalny's enduring message because during the years leading up to his death navalny was writing a memoir about his life and work as a pro-democracy activist. that memoir, entitled "patriot," will be published in october. navalny's widow called it her husband's, quote, final show of defiance, a testament not only to alexey's life but to his unwavering commitment to the fight against dictatorship.

navalny was perhaps the most famous of putin's political prisoners but he's far from the only one. human rights groups estimate that there are almost 700 political prisoners in russia including vladimir kara-murza, the journalist turned political activist who was taken prisoner two years ago today. there's a "wall street journal" reports, quote, if navalny deserved to become president of a free russia, kara-murza would have made the perfect foreign minister. he's serving a 25-year sentence for criticizing the kremlin and their war on ukraine. he's been poisoned twice. he's been in a coma twice. and doctors say he could soon be the next russian dissident after alexey navalny to die behind bars. and while this is maybe some could look at it as a russian story, it's also a universal story we should all pay attention to about the price of standing up to dictators. with our own democracy facing a nearly unprecedented threat of

backsliding into something more closely resembling autocracy, it's an important conversation. part of our series "american autdocracy: it could happen here." joining us now is bill browder, ceo of hermitage capital sxhjt head of the global magnitsky justice campaign which seeks to expose corruption. named in honor of kremlin critic sergei magnitsky, who also died in a russian p prison. thank you so much for being with us. i've watched every interview you've done. i follow everything you say. i saw your comments in the "wall street journal." and the first thing i wanted to ask you is do you know how your friend is doing? >> the answer is not well. as you mentioned, he's been in custody for two years. because they had tried to kill him with poison twice before, the aftereffects of those poisons have been affecting and dogging his life for a long time. he's been in solitary

confinement in siberia in prison. they allow him out of his cell into a tiny little courtyard for 90 minutes a day. the rest of the time he's got to sit in this tiny little cell. he can't move around. he's losing sensation in both of his feet from nerve damage from the poison. and most doctors don't believe that he'll survive another two years, let alone 25 years of his sentence. he's been given the longest sentence of any political prisoner in russia. and after the murder of alexey navalny we're desperately worried that he could be next. >> this is what you said about how he ended up here, how and why he went back to russia, to the "wall street journal." i want to read it to you. "over dinner in london bill browder asked kara-murza to consider his family. quote, i said to him, the worst that happens is you gets killed and the best that happens is you get arrested. he was unmoved by that. two weeks after the dinner kara-murza was back in moscow. in an interview soon after he accused putin of killing his opponents and said the kremlin

chooses poison as a favorite method of assassination because it gives plausible deniability, noting that kara-murza was speaking from moscow the anchor asked whether he was concerned that if he is targeted again he will die. kara-murza answered, quote, the biggest gift we could offer the kremlin is to give up and run. hours later as he returned home he was arrested and charged. it's so harrowing because it seems that he knew and he told you he knew exactly what his fate would be. so as we cover these events he may be the least surprised by them. tell me what -- tell me how someone -- how someone does that. how someone -- and you put it all in front of him. right? he loves his family, obviously, and they love him. but just tell me more about him and his decision to go back and criticize the kremlin. >> well, it's hard for us to really understand what -- how a person could be so selfless.

but he was. when i pressed him on go back and all the risks he was taking, he said i have to go back, i'm a russian patriot, i'm a russian politician, i'm against the war, and i'm standing up against the war and i want other people to stand up against the war and how can i do that if i'm afraid to go back? and the kind of sort of bravery and heroism and selflessness that he demonstrates is something that we don't see very often, certainly not in the western world. we saw it also with alexey navalny, who went back. but this is a type of heroism that we don't see. and it's hard to imagine the kind of pain that he's suffering right now as a patriot for his country. and as you mentioned, there's a lot of people that won't even vote against something shocking in congress because they're afraid of losing their job. and here you have a guy who's

ready to lose his life for his country and go back and take that risk. and it really does, you know, show us what heroism, bravery and patriotism is all about. >> what impact does it have or did it have on navalny and does it have on kara-murza when two house republicans will say in tv interviews, listen, russian propaganda has infected large portions of my party? how much does that strengthen putin's hand in being as brutal on these dissidents as he wants to be? >> we should understand putin wants to thump his chest and pretend he's winning this war and everything is going his way. but that's not the case. he's lost more than 400,000 troops according to ukrainian estimates. there's just like 95% of their tanks have been destroyed. huge, huge economic losses from the sanctions.

and he kind of needs a hail mary. and his hail mary is if the u.s. gives up on supporting ukraine. and it hasn't been a very expensive exercise for him to flood the internet with trolls and nonsense making people believe that somehow ukraine was bad and russia was good, and there are some people in america in the republican party, mike johnson, marjorie taylor greene, and so on, who are actively spouting that. and from putin's perspective if he gets -- you know, if he gets donald trump, if he cuts off funding for ukraine, that's his hail mary. and he's desperate for that because if he doesn't get that he's got big problems himself. >> can you quantify -- we all know now what putin's willing to do in '16.

as you just articulated, the stakes are much higher. he's lost 400,000 russian men and women, soldiers fighting this losing war in ukraine. what are the stakes for putin in 2024 of getting trump? >> what putin has at risk here is his own life. if putin loses in ukraine, if ukraine were to successfully dislodge russia from their territory the russian people would say why did we do this, why did we lose whatever number -- whatever number of hundred thousands of citizens in this pointless war, why did we lose all this money? why did we do this? and we have our strong man is beak. and if that were to happen, if the russian people came to that conclusion, they would say we don't want this guy anymore. and it's not going to be a democratic process. they'll just get rid of him. and they'll hang him from a lamppost like the romanians did

with ceausescu at the end of the soviet union. putin understands that. so for him it's a question of personal survival to -- for this war to continue, for russia not to be dislodged. and that's why y. all this foreign stuff is necessary, why he needs hungary to block european union funding and mike johnson to block u.s. funding and so on and so forth. because if that doesn't happen he's afraid of dying. if the ukrainians succeed putin thinks he's going to die. and he doesn't want to die. and he's willing to sacrifice as many millions of young russian men as necessary not to die. >> just a remarkable, remarkable sort of intersection of his fate and ours. bill browder, thank you very much for being our guest today. it's a privilege to talk to you. >> thank you. >> when we come back, how fears

about the disgraced ex-president and the threat of retribution may have stopped the gerald ford presidential foundation from honoring a champion of democracy, former republican congresswoman liz cheney. we'll bring you that story next. we'll bring you that story next. ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to see ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c! ♪

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this is happening all over the country, where people are afraid to step up, afraid to say anything. and liz is a bright shining

light. she's been threatened with death. she's had, you know, her family threatened. for just being petty and fearful like so many people in the country. and you've got to listen to liz. she's out there getting big crowds all around the country of democrats and republicans to hear her message, which is to keep donald trump away from the oval office. that's the only award she wants. >> and it's the latest example of how the power of authoritarianism is usually freely given, as historian and expert tim snyder puts it. pulitzer prize-winning photographer david hume kennerly there. he served as gerald ford's presidential photographer. he resigned from the board of trustees on ford's presidential foundation over its refusal to consider former congresswoman liz cheney for its top yearly award, believing the foundation is cowering to the specter of retribution in a potential second trump term. her nomination for the foundation's distinguished

public service medal was apparently rejected three times. the foundation argues it, quote, might be construed as a political statement if cheney were to launch a presidential bid, putting the foundation at risk of losing its non-profit status with the irs. in his scathing resignation letter, obtained by politico, kennerly writes this, quote, the historical irony was completely lost on you. gerald ford became president in part because richard nixon had ordered the development of an enemies list and demanded his underlings use the irs against those listed. that's exactly what the executive committee fears will happen if there's a second coming of trump. if the foundation that bears the name of gerald r. ford won't stand up to this real threat to our democracy, who will? the foundation's executive director says that cheney could still be considered for a medal in the future. we're back with charlie and david. david jolly, it is sort of the quintessential story that embodies the long reach of trump's modeling himself as an

authoritarian figure. what do the rest of us do is a question i've tried to put out there. in this case the ford foundation gave up the opportunity to award someone pretty clearly the kind of person they've awarded in the past. >> yeah. and look, kennerly is taking on what he calls the tidal wave of timidity. and i think that's absolutely true. i mean, the road to authoritarianism, to autocracy, is normalized with a thousand small decisions. and in this case the decision was to instead give their annual award to mitch daniels, someone with a of public service considered a real gentleman in politics, but spent the last nine years as a university president and i'm not sure the profile encourages there for mitch daniels as the courage of liz cheney right now which is right kidderly is rid to call out the board for saying, look, we are going to join that tidal wave of timidity and look the other way. they're looking the other way

and in the series about autocracy, nicole, it is defined by people looking the other way and this is the latest example. >> charlie sykes? >> what'sraordinary about this is it's not just timidity. it's the fact that they caved to donald trump's threat of retribution six months before the election. i think it was ed luce who made the point, imagine the spinelessness he'll have when he actually wields the power, but again, this is a feature of authoritarian regimes. they don't have to have a police officer on every corner. they don't have to drop the hammer. they merely have to threaten to do so, and so donald trump's threats, just the sense that he might mobilize the power of the federal government in vengeance is enough to make these -- this foundation back off and by the way, you had a very interesting segment, nicole, about why the business community has been so

reluctant to speak out. in many ways they're going through the same process and they're risk averse. we don't want to make him mad. we don't want him to criminally charge us or take our license away, and this is part of the world that we live in. an authoritarian doesn't need too take executive action and pass punitive legislation. they merely need to threaten it, and we are there right now even before he assumes the presidency. >> yeah, and the thing that we'll spend the next few weeks talking about is what does risk averse mean? because it's far riskier to march this to oughtocracy. thanks for spending the hour with us. a quick break. we'll be right back. s. a quick break. we'll be right back. ♪

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