and daniel patrick moynihan gets tonight's last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. tonight, donald trump's first criminal trial is almost here. we will get new reporting on the witness list. plus tennessee republicans have their solution for school shootings.

they just passed a bill to arm teachers. don't worry, be happy. a campaign veteran explains why democrats should feel pretty good about biden versus trump as the 11th hour gets underway on this thursday night. good evening. once again, i am stephanie ruhle and we are now 208 days away from the election in just four days away from donald trump's first criminal trial. can you believe it? trump is accused of hiding hush money payments to cover up his affair with porn star stormy daniels. trump has pleaded not guilty and today, nbc news obtained a list of potential prosecution witnesses. it includes stormy daniels, and also, former trump fixer michael kahn who prosecutors say helped funnel the money. the witness list has other former trump organization employees. the specific charge,

of course, is falsifying business records. each of them, 34 counts, has a maximum penalty of four years in prison, and a $5000 fine. manhattan d.a. alvin bragg says his office prosecutes charges like this all the time. new york state, in fact, has pursued that very charge more than 11,000 times over the last 10 years and for all the talk you may have heard about this being the least important of drums criminal cases, there is a brand-new poll out there that found nearly two thirds of american voters find these charges against trump at least somewhat serious. with that, let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel, some msnbc all-stars. peter baker joins us, chief white house correspondent for the new york times. former u.s. attorney joyce vance and michael steele is here, former chairman of the republican national committee

and former lieutenant governor of maryland. you know him as the cohost of the weekend right here on ms. joyce, what is your reaction to this potential list of prosecution witnesses? who stuck out to you? >> well, what sticks out to me is the whole package because one of the big questions here is whether prosecutors will ask the jury to rely on the testimony of michael cohen, who is someone who is known not to tell the truth. he has pled guilty to charges related to that, but i think we now can see that is unlikely to be the case, that there are other witnesses here who will be use to corroborate cohen's testimony at every step of the way, perhaps documents that he can introduce, so it is this total package of witnesses that i think helps us start to understand what the prosecution's case will look like. >> reminder, michael. for those who say listen, it was a guy, he had an affair.

he was trying to protect his family, his reputation, his wife, this is about paying someone off to suppress information that could impact voters ahead of a presidential election, so who do you want to hear from most? >> so, if you were a good, god- fearing christian, you would not be having the affair in the first place, so we wouldn't even be here, now would we? but since we are here, let's have the conversation. you know, i mean, come on. let's keep it real, but the reality of it is you know, i do want to hear the tale of the women who were involved in this story. i think there is still a great deal of backhanded discounting of their story, what happened to them, how they were used in this process by trump in many respects, how they were, you know, bought off, paid off for their silence because two things. one, he did not want his wife

to know, who was at home nursing their baby boy, and he did not want all of those wonderful christian evangelicals that he was courting and lying to about who he was, and then of course, on the heels of the access hollywood tape, this may have been just too much, so yeah. i want to hear their stories. i want to hear what stormie has to say. i want to understand exactly how they were approached and what they were told, because all that to me, and joyce would understand this, particularly from a prosecutor's perspective -- let me show you the man. let me show you who he is. let me show you how he operates. let me show you how he treats people. let me show you what he thinks of women in this position, and let me show you how he asserts his power over them, thinking that hundred thousand dollars, 130,000 or $150,000 would be enough to shut them off,

because of his illegal behavior. >> and then, in a very different scenario, peter, sitting there as a defendant in a criminal trial, is the ultimate of the powerless. he did not have to be there for his civil trials. he chose to show up. for this one, he has no choice, as his private life is put under a microscope. peter, do you think trump wants to be there? he will be the center of attention. every new and camera will be there, and as humiliating as that might be, trump is the originator of all news is good news, and shamelessness is his superpower. >> yeah, he once told campaign aides, he said as long as they don't call you a pedophile, all news is good news and they're not calling him a pedophile but they are calling him a lot of

other things in this trial, none of which are flattering. in some ways, you're right, obviously. it can't be a pleasant thing to sit there and be accused of one thing after another, particularly at a time you are trying to convince voters in the republican base that you are there champion, but on the other hand, you have a point. he does love being center of attention. he does love being center of the show. he will make this as much a show as he possibly can. he doesn't want it to be about the facts or the law. he wanted to be about the politics. he wants to be able to say this is all part of a scheme, of a witch hunt. it's all political. that will be his goal. but, up until now we have not seen him on trial for criminal charges. there have been civil trials that were important and obviously resulted in verdicts against him in every single instance, but this is a trial that could actually deprive him of his liberty and while he may want to make a show of it, at the end of the day, he faces the threat of being in prison

if he can't convince the jury. >> michael, the washington post talk to legal experts. i can't even believe i'm asking this -- about whether a convicted felon, a felon in the united states, can serve as president and they actually said yes because the constitution does not forbid it. you use to run the rnc. can you imagine leading the party through a presidential election where there is a legitimate chance that your nominee will, in fact, be a felon, and people don't seem to mind? >> yeah, it says a lot about us, doesn't it? it says a lot less about the party as it does about us as citizens, that we even countenance this right now and have put this man in the pole position to be the nest president of the united states, having him leading in poll after poll. it is an abomination that is embarrassing, and in some respects to me, it shows a level of desperation that we think donald trump is going to somehow solve all our problems.

america has never looked to one person to do that. we have all kind of done it together in the past, but that does not fit his narrative, so it is disappointing, and very frustrating that our constitution never anticipated that any individual who would be in this position would have the you know what to actually stomp and say you know what? i'm going to be the next president of the united states. i mean, just the level of embarrassment before hand would stop you from doing it, but there is no shame. there is no embarrassment with donald trump. it is all about him, and i would really hope that the media does not get carried away here over the course of this thing. countdown clocks and all the other bs that goes into leveling this. this is a sobering moment for this country, but we need to treat it with that level of dignity and respect, and sort of yeah, humility and embarrassment. we should be embarrassed as a country right now, that we find

ourselves with this man as the potential next president who was going on trial for his criminal conduct, and could, you know, wind up being convicted. then what do we do? then what do we say? i think we need to be very sober at this time and not get caught up in donald trump's crazy behind circus that it's all about him and you know, as long as they don't call me a pedophile, it's good. you know what? i think having these types of counts against you as a former president, that is worse in many respects because little kids looking up to you. families rely on you, and all you got to show them is the backside of your hand, so i think we need to be careful about how we approach this week. >> in the words of melania trump, be better. >> choice, there was a pretty interesting piece out on chris caradori, a former doj federal prosecutor who writes for politico.

he says there is a chance trump's legal team will try to get the judge to give the jury the option of convicting him on lesser charges, misdemeanor charges. what do you think of that strategy to keep trump out of prison? >> this would be a solid legal strategy, but i am not sure it is one donald trump will avail himself of, and here is essentially what happens. this is sort of the stuff of first-year criminal law when you are in law school, and the concept makes sense. it is sort of a mass-based concept. we've talked a lot about the fact that in order to convict someone on a criminal charge, you have to prove all the elements of that charge. there is usually some conduct, and the state of mind. prosecutors have to prove all that. sometimes you might have a charge where prosecutors don't prove all of those elements, but there is a lesser included offense that they can convict on, so let's make that concrete

in the trunk case here. in order to convict him on felony charges, prosecutors will have to prove that when he falsified these business records, he did so with the intent to commit another crime, and there has been some speculation at trial whether they will talk about past charges or election fraud or what have you, but there is a range of crimes they can choose from. how trump's lawyers would implement this strategy as they would say look, yes, there might be proof here of falsification of business records, but there is no proof of intent to commit another felony, so judge, we want you to instruct the jury that if the prosecution in fact fails to prove that, they can convict only on this lesser included offense, which would be a misdemeanor and that is the strategic benefit for trunk. it is a misdemeanor, not a felony, and then trump can go out and try to sell that to people as this wasn't serious, or it was a witch hunt or whatever he wants to, but that would, in essence, be a victory for trump because really, he's

not looking in acquittal here. i think their best hope is that they can pick a juror or two who will hold out against conviction, that they will hang the jury, that it will be in this trial. that means prosecutors could retry the case again. this notion of a lesser included offense and only a misdemeanor conviction would be very appealing if they could convince their client, donald trump, to let them go there. >> peter, i want to lay this out one more time. this trial is essentially about donald trump trying to hide information from the american people during an election, and it will be happening right in the middle of another election. how do you think the public is going to react when this trial starts? >> yeah, that's the open question. you are right that there has

been a lot of conversation about how of the four different indictments, this is the last serious one partly because it's tawdry and unseemly. it's about you know, sex and all that, but the truth is there is a fruit -- through line i think you just put your finger on. according to the allegations, at least, cheating in order to get power. that is what he's been accused of in the georgia case in january 6 case, as well, cheating in order to preserve power as president. here, he's been accused of cheating in order to obtain power, to win an election without letting voters know things they might be entitled to no one by cheating on the rules to do it, not simply just hiding things, but cheating on rules that other businesses and other people who do business have to follow every day in new york, and so there is a serious issue here. it's not just about sex and we seen this in this country before, you know, sex scandals are one thing but when it comes to your legal obligations in a business setting, you have to follow the rules just like everybody else. without -- to joyce's point, they have to prove all the different elements. he has pleaded not guilty, but if he is convicted, it is, i

think, part of a larger story here for all four of these indictments. >> michael, help me out on this one. republicans like to hammer the point about crime being rampant in america on president biden's watch. they call themselves the party of law and order. what does that look like come october, and down ballot republicans are running with a convicted felon at the top of the ticket? >> it's yummy. it's just -- it's just yummy. it really is. i mean, i put a cherry on top of that, you know what i'm talking about? it's going to be very good because it just -- but you know what? here is the sad part. they won't care. they won't care, because it is all about him. they are so consumed by him.

they are so much in whatever he wants, and make it you know, his success is their success, regardless of what it looks like or how it comes about so yeah, you know, the rest of us are sitting there going wait a minute. let me get this straight. you're talking about crime under joe biden. okay, here is a good example of that. your guy. he's in the criminal justice system. but, it really won't matter because if it did, we would not be here. he would not be the nominee. they would have dealt with that a long time ago. they would've realized just how embarrassingly stupid and ugly they look by putting forward someone like this when there were quite honestly better qualified, better capable, certainly how shall we say, legal-free? you know, candidates. nikki haley, you know, ron desantis and others who could've been the nominee,

which would've made this a much more difficult race for the democratic party but no. they wanted to go with the guy who's going to court on monday, who stands a chance of being convicted, and yeah, let's run with that come november and see how america swallows it, see how much they buy it and again, that will say a lot more about us than it does about the republican party. >> peter, let's stay with embarrassing but shift to capitol hill. we are continuing to see the standoff between republicans speaker johnson and republican marjorie taylor green was threatening to give him the boot. >> marjorie taylor green is holding this over the speakers had but she has not actually called the vote for it, and she doesn't do that because there is not a vote for her at this moment. most republicans don't want to go through what they went through last year and they don't have an alternative candidate. one of the reasons they did not like kevin mccarthy is because

a lot of republicans felt they had not been truthful with him. fair or not, they had a strong sense of bitterness toward him. they don't feel in the same way about mike johnson. they are mad about some of the choices he's made and some of his leadership options but they don't feel the same sense of anger at him that they did against mccarthy so marjorie taylor green is kind of on her own right here and i don't think donald trump wants her to pull the trigger either because i think he recognizes that would not be good for him or the party to have another meltdown on the hill at the very moment when he already has quite a lot on his plate. >> before that i let the three of you go, joyce, i want to ask you about o.j. simpson. it is obviously been wide reported he died today. you have a wealth of experience with our justice system. how did oj's murder trial change high profile prosecutions, how the media covers them, the public consumes them. as we are walking into one of them with donald trump on monday. >> you know, there was

incredible focus on this case in large part because it was televised, and i don't think it was just and prosecutors offices that people watched it and dissected the action. it was really in many ways the great american pastime during that season, and steph, it has led to something that i think is so interesting in our popular culture, this fascination with forensic evidence that has spawned lots of different tv shows, that continues to really have i think a grip on the american psyche, this notion of evidence that proves crimes beyond simply witness testimony and having a he had and as she said, but the more definitive proof that can come from scientific evidence and of course, in o.j. simpson's case, the failure of proof that permitted the

defendant a great number of people were convinced was guilty to walk free because the government did not prove it to the satisfaction of a jury. >> all right. thank you all for starting us off this evening. when we return, as president biden tries to close a gun loophole, tennessee has a plan to get more guns out in the world. we are going to be speaking about the new effort. you have got to hear this, the new effort to arm teachers, with one of the tennessee three he will be here next. later with inflation, immigration and the war in gaza, biden's re-election campaign is facing threats from the right and left but i will be speaking with a democratic strategist who is not worried one single bit. the 11th hour just getting underway on a busy thursday night.

from chavez and huerta to striking janitors in the 90s to today's fast-food workers. californians have led the way. now, $20/hour is here. thanks to governor newsom and leaders in sacramento, we can lift workers out of poverty. stop the race to the bottom in the fast-food industry. and build a california for all of us. thank you governor and our california lawmakers for fighting for what matters.

business. and our california lawmakers it's not a nine-to-five proposition. it's all day and into the night. it's all the things that keep this world turning. the go-tos that keep us going. the places we cheer. and check in. they all choose the advanced network solutions and round the clock partnership from comcast business. see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. biden administration took action today to end the so- called gun show loophole requiring anyone engaged in the business of selling guns at a profit to register is a federally licensed firearms

dealer and run background criminal and mental health checks on any buyers. that will include not only gun shows, but at flea markets and online. this could be the biggest expansion of federal background checks we've seen in this country in decades. meanwhile, this week, the tennessee state senate advanced a bill there to arm their teachers and school staff in the face of local protests. if passed, the move would mark one of the states biggest expansions of gun access since the deadly covenant school shooting that took place in nashville last year. here to discuss, tennessee state representative justin jones. you know him as one of the tennessee three. he was reinstated to his bridges in one year ago yesterday after he was peacefully protesting gun violence. rachel wagner joined us, the tent children's reporter at the tennessean and usa today network. rachel, what should we know about this bill because it's

almost too much to believe. >> right. there is a lot to unpack. first of all, the requirements it has for the teachers or staff members who carry are laid out in the bill. they would have to get a handgun carry permit and complete annual training with local law enforcement, 20 hours a year, and in the district director of schools, the principal and the chief of the law enforcement agency would have to sign off on it along with having a mental health investigation and an fbi background check. >> but, once they do that, a teacher could have a gun on their belt while teaching the third grade. >> yes, and another thing that has raised a lot of concerns is that they want you to disclose which staff members are carrying weapons to the teachers, parents and possibly other teachers around them. >> representative jones, what

is your reaction to this? what are people in your district telling you? >> the people are outraged. the tennessee republican super majority continues to hold our state at gunpoint and put more guns on the streets another trying to force guns into our classrooms. i think the most asinine thing about this is that we live in a state where we have passed laws saying we don't trust teachers to pick the books in their classrooms. we don't trust teachers to make their own curriculum about history but now we want to say we want teachers to carry guns in our schools one every parent we saw show up in our committees, show up in the chamber said please don't do this. more guns are not the solution and they will make our children in schools more unsafe. >> we don't even provide those teachers with the school supplies they need to do their jobs. rachel, what are parents and teachers saying about this? >> so, i would say a fairly wide outcry against the passage of the bill now in our state senate has been rolling this

week. it is yet to be taken up by our house, but as we get into that potential hearing, lots of folks are planning to continue their protest and speaking out over their concerns for all the ways things could go wrong. supporters of the bill have a different viewpoint on that, but teachers, parents, students -- almost unanimously i have heard them say they are against it and they are worried about what it means. >> representative, what do you say to people who argue well, schools have the option to opt out? is that good enough? >> it's not good enough, and i want to point out that the majority of tennesseans are against this bill. 70% of tennesseans want common sense gun laws. this is not a polarizing issue.

gunshot wounds are the leading cause of death of children in our state and people are demanding that we act. they show up to our capital month after month saying we want laws that protect kids, not guns. we want laws that rein in the senseless terror and preventable tragedy of gun violence in our state and across this nation and another bill that is being offered is not just arming teachers but in the house side, they just passed the bill through committee to lower the age of assault weapons to age 18 and allow the open carry of assault weapons in our state and this is a bill that is so extreme the governor's own department's safety is saying we don't want this bill. so what we are hearing in our state is people saying that our legislature is morally insane. we have a republican super majority that is just lost their mind, passing laws just last week to honor the tennessee rifle the same week

we are recognizing the covenant tragedy here in our state, a mass shooting that took the lives of three children and three adults. the only law that passed after the mass shooting was to protect firearms manufacturers so what we are seeing is a republican super majority that is beholden to the gun industry in the nra and is not listening to the people of tennessee. >> what you think is going to happen when this ends up on the governor's desk? >> unfortunately, we have a governor who does not have a lot of political courage so he's either going to sign it or allow it to take effect without his signature. the governor lost a friend in the covenant shooting and we thought he would act but he bowed down to the extremist and has done nothing so what we say is that it's going to take people rising up. just this weekend in the senate chamber, we saw mothers and grandmothers and clergy escorted out by troopers because they refuse to allow this law to pass in the comfort of silence. they shouted. they said shame on you. they said vote them out because they are sick and tired of these lawmakers, republican lawmakers, refusing to act to protect kids and instead listening to their donors from that tennessee gun association

and the nra. they said we cannot allow this to happen without raising a dissent and that's what we must continue to see and when we vote on this bill next week in the house i hope these mothers will continue to show up and fight for a state that honors and protects our children, and that listens to her teachers who say we want supplies. we want fair pay unlivable salaries. we don't want guns in our school. they want more books, they want more supplies, they want better pay. that is what our teachers want, not more guns in our schools. >> well, there is something in washington trying to do something on guns right now. i want to get your reaction to the new white house rule on the gun show loophole and what kind of gun reforms do you want to see in tennessee? >> this is an important step, closing this gun show loophole, requiring -- expanding the definition of firearms

manufacturers to online sales and gun shows his common sense. this is a commonsense law and that is what we are asking for in tennessee. universal background checks, safe storage, red flag laws, a ban on assault weapons which is something that has worked before in our nation to reduce instances of gun violence and can work again. it's going to take political courage. it's going to take doing things out of the ordinary. it's going to take folks who put the lives of people over the profits of the gun industry . that is what it is going to take and so these are the laws the majority of tennesseans, the majority of americans again this is not an issue of left and right, but a moral issue of right and wrong. democrats, republicans and independents are in agreement we must act to pass these common sense gun law measures to protect us in our schools, when we go to the movie theater, concerts -- all these places were we are seeing mass shootings and every day gun

violence. people are tired of living this way and we don't have to live this way. this is the choice of political cowardice and to the people of america, i hope we can rise up and challenge this extremism. >> thank you for being here. when we return, despite president biden's re-election challenges, our next guest has a message for democrats. chill. president biden has got this when the 11th hour continues. is when the 11th hour continues.

with seven months to go until election day, president biden is facing headwinds. inflation has improved but still higher than anybody

wanted to be. the crisis at the border is a top issue and the president is facing backlash with his and -- own party with how he is handling israel and gaza. polls show a tight race between biden and trump but one presidential campaign veteran is urging his fellow dems to come down and he is here tonight to explain why. i'm very glad to welcome democratic strategist and consultant simon rosenberg. i am a big follower and fan of his work, so we want to start. i've got to give you credit, you went against the crowd and correctly predicted there would be no red wave in 2022, so tell us why you think democrats aren't too worried about this election? >> first of all, it's great to be here and i am also a fan of your work over the years so it's a pleasure to be here tonight.

my basic take on where things are right now is that joe biden has been a good president. the country is better off. we have a strong case for re- election. the democratic party is strong, unified, raising tons of money and winning elections all across the country, and what do the republicans have? they have trump, who is the ugliest political thing we have ever seen in our lifetime and their party is an unprecedented dumpster fire. when i look at all of this, i believe that over time, and i think the general view of the camp and of people like me is that as the general election began and people started paying attention in the campaign was turned on that we would see joe biden's approval rating and his polling numbers come up, and they have. i mean, we are in much better shape today than we were a few weeks ago and i feel like the election is moving in a direction where we should all be quietly confident that we have, as you pointed out, that we got this. if we execute and work hard a lot of things are going to happen. things are going to change. that always happens in elections but if we do the work and work hard, i think we should be able to win in november. >> given the unprecedented

dumpster fire that is donald trump in the republican party, why do you think polls are as tight as they are? do you just think they're not representative? because when the polls have been this tight -- look at the last few elections. they're not even connected to election results. >> listen, for most americans, they're not really paying attention. i don't think these polls have any predictive value. polls can never predict the future. all they can do is tell you where things are today and i think vast numbers of americans are not paying close attention and it's important for your viewers to realize that when voters have had to pay attention, we keep over performing expectations and republicans continue to struggle. it has happened again and again, particularly since dobbs in the spring of 2022 for i really do think that politics changed in america. i think there was a before and after moment and in the election since dobbs, we have continued to outperform

expectations. the most recent example of that was in new york 34 it was supposed to be a very close race. we were only up two or three points in the polls and tom swazi won by eight points. that was supposed to be a big bellwether and we won and i think you've already see it in trump. the struggle that i have mentioned that is shown up with trump in the early states, he's been underperforming. in 2020, he over performed polls. this election he is underperforming polls. he is showing us that when people have had to make up their mind, they went with nikki haley or other candidates because at the end of the day, he really is an ugly figure. i mean, the republicans have rallied behind a historically ugly candidate and i think when people of had to consider trump 2024, who i think is far weaker and more degraded and diminished than he was in 2020, you know, he has really struggled. another example is the problems they're having raising money.

they are having enormous financial problems on the republican side, which is another sign of no confidence by republican voters in his leadership. >> do you think the panic other democrats are feeling is truly around fears that president biden isn't delivering, or fears that the threat of donald trump is so great they have to take every single thing so seriously because our democracy is at risk? >> yeah, i think that's it. many americans would like to believe we could go back to a time when you lose an election and your democracy will slip away. the worry and fear people have is legitimate. the key is that you need to channel that worry and fear into concrete action and democrats have been doing that. you have seen unprecedented amounts of money being raised, volunteerism and the democratic party.

we are in the process of building the most powerful democratic political machine we've ever had because regular americans are answering the call. they've been challenged to fight for their democracy and millions of americans are stepping up to do so, so it should be very encouraging to us. one of the reasons we keep performing better than everybody expects is because of the work of the hundreds of thousands or millions of americans raising the money and making the phone calls. in tom swazi's race in new york three, and five weeks, democrats made 2 million phone calls. 2 million phone calls into the house race. that is the kind of number of calls you would make in michigan in the general election, you know, and the entire general election a few years ago. every household got five handwritten house -- postcards. we are seeing unprecedented democratic engagement which is giving us this extra superpower. >> maybe then call it strong island for nothing. thank you so much for being here.

please come back soon. our next guest takes his love of basketball, and uses it as a lens to view life, and if you do not know this man, you should. you don't want to minutes -- miss our keynote conversation with an amazing writer. that is next. before apoquel chewable for allergic itch, giving dogs pills was a battle of wits. oh maria, i'm wise to your foolish game. is it gone? totally gone. itch relief just got easier! apoquel, the trusted #1 treatment for allergic itch is now available in a tasty chewable that works in a day. do not use in dogs with serious infections. may cause worsening of existing parasitic skin infestations or preexisting cancers and serious infections. new neoplasias have been observed. do not use in dogs less than 12 months old. ask your vet for apoquel chewable. do it!

“i did just pay 60% less for my ticket with the gametime app.” “it's the best place to get last-minute deals on tickets.” “i guess i'm just a better fan than you.” “(crowd cheering) i've got to get the gametime app.” “download the gametime app and use promo code viva to get $20 off your first purchase.”

hi, i'm janice, and i lost 172 pounds on golo. and use promo code viva when i was a teenager i had some severe trauma in my life and i turned to food for comfort. a friend told me that i was the only one holding me back from being as beautiful on the outside as i am the inside. once i saw golo was working, i felt this rush, i just had to keep going. a lot of people think no pain no gain, but with golo it is so easy. when i look in the mirror, i don't even recognize myself. golo really works.

do we have a treat for you tonight? the answer is yes. my next guest is the recipient of the macarthur genius grant in new york magazine describes him as the mr. rogers of columbus, ohio. it doesn't get better than

that. poet, essayist and cultural critic hanif abdurraqib is here for our keynote conversation tonight. he is out with a new must-read book called "there is always this year on a basketball and ascension." i'm so honored you are here. this book is about basketball. it's about ohio's most famous basketball player, lebron james, but it is not a sports book. >> i think so. it's also a book about the passage of time. it's also a book about what it is to love a place and what it a place. e it or make it out of it is trying to juggle a lot of different themes about life, lensed through basketball, which helped me make sense of the bigger questions. >> you talk about what it means to make it, and more importantly, who deserves to make it. can you explain that?

>> sure. i like to think of it probably not just to to makes it in the sense of who deserves to make it to the nba or deserves to make it to some larger platform, but who deserves a life that is sustainable? who deserves a life they can survive well in? i am someone who is lived many different lives to get to in this life i have right now and i did not believe myself capable of surviving all of them but >> have made it in the small increments to a place that i can look at the world a bit more patiently and more generously, i would take that form of making it over many other forms. >> i want to know how you got there because you spent some time in your early 20s in jail. you did not always have a place to live. what made you make that turn and start writing? >> i don't know if it was a turn so much as i think in order to survive, i needed to foster a healthy imagination. i needed to have an imagination that was robust enough to dream a better world not just for myself, but for other, better people, a world everyone could survive in, so there was a lot

of dreaming on my own that just kind of flowed into raining. i think my ranting specifically is rooted in the depths of imagination and the depth of care and a depth of affection that i think came through struggle. you know, through struggle, i dreamed the world that i want to live in and i'm writing my way towards it inch by inch. >> you move back to her hometown, columbus, ohio, where you have been called the mr. rogers of columbus. i cannot think of a higher complement? >> it is the highest compliment. it's not intentional in a way, i think i just try to live with some level of care for my community. i am curious. i'm interested in people. i think the real doorway that opens to other people's are joyful questioning of where you're from, what you do, what

are you interested in that we might be interested in together? so much of my work is also reaching for these inquiries of trying to share things with you that i love in the hopes that you might also love them and then we have a common ground with which we can open up a better doorway to love each other well so perhaps that pulls me closer to mr. rogers than i expected but that is a high compliment. i'm happy to be close to mr. rogers in some way. >> you love to take pictures of sunsets. many people would roll their eyes and say it's cliche or corny but it's not. >> even if it is, i'm not afraid to be corny. the truth is i am distinctly aware of the amount of time that i am operating within, and that it is not infinite and therefore, it's important for me to slow down and consider things that somebody might consider mundane, the things we encounter every day but that are not the same every day. i could take 100 pictures of 100 sunsets. not all of them would be the same sunset. the sunset for my corner to your corner is not the same sunset. list the sunset from my window today is not the same sunset is the window i will be looking out tomorrow. i have considered that the sun sets it differently from every corner of the world you could

possibly touches to offer a kind of slowness to which i can consider the world more generously and i think that keeps me aligned joyfully with the passage of time, to say i have not considered every possible version there is of myself to come in a way that i can consider that and keep considering that generously is to look at the mundane things is not at all mundane. >> well, the best thing that happened to my day is meeting you tonight. thank you so much. an honor and privilege. wow. i told you you are in for a treat. when we come back, as lewiston, maine rebuilds after a deadly mass shooting, so does the bowling alley where it happened. how the owners are turning pain and peace from the 11th hour continues. om the 11th hour continues. advil dual action fights pain two ways. advil targets pain at the source, acetaminophen blocks pain signals. advil dual action.

the last thing before we go tonight, just in time.

it has been nearly six months since the horrific mass shooting in lewiston, maine that left 18 people dead at a bowling alley in a nearby bar, and now, the owners of that bowling alley are planning to move forward, reopen it, and make it a safe place again. our own emily ikeda has that story. >> reporter: and justin grew up bowling here in lewiston, maine. when the owner announced he was closing the business in 2021, he bought it, just in time. >> we were bowlers and we knew a lot of the people here and we hated to see it closed. >> reporter: but, last october, his passion project was upended when the gunmen stormed the bowling alley and a nearby bar, killing 18 people. >> what do you remember from that night? >> thinking that samantha had been murdered. >> reporter: samantha feared the same for her husband. >> not knowing if he was alive -- i didn't find out for like 2.5 hours of he was alive or not. >> reporter: even nearly six months later, the emotion is still so raw.

heartache, guilt, nightmares and triggers have plagued samantha and justin's days and nights. >> i did not think i would able -- ever be able to walk in here again let alone reopen the business. >> reporter: but, slowly, a change of heart and a feeling that lewiston needed just-in- time recreation. it is now in the final stages of renovation, days away from reopening. >> the people that we lost love this place. i could hear bob violet just telling me, you can't give up. >> reporter: you feel like this is what the victims would've wanted? >> absolutely. >> reporter: bob and lucy

violet were killed while volunteering with the youth league, just as they did every wednesday night. son that john and his wife, cassandra, moved back to maine to continue that legacy. >> a look over at the liens over here, that is where you flag practice was. i came in on a lot of wednesday nights with my own kids myself, so i try to remember the good things. >> we spent a lot of hours in this bowling alley, years and years here with them, so i kind of feel close to them by being here. >> i hope my presence encourages others and hopefully we can move forward. >> reporter: pressing on the only way they know how, lewiston strong. nbc news, lewiston, maine. >> we wish justin and samantha the best of luck in reopening the bowling alley and pray that everyone in lewiston is healing and moving forward in peace. and on that note, i wish you a very good night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late. i will see you at the end of tomorrow. see you at the end of tomorrow. >> the president of the united states just wrote a personal check for the payment of hush e money as part of a criminal scheme to file a kind pan