>> is a presidential election residing on abortion and there is the entire state house that might ride on abortion and there is also a constitutional amendment that activists right now are trying to put on the ballot in november in arizona to enshrine the right to abortion. we've seen amendments like that pass on the ballot even in very red places like kansas. thank you so much. i appreciate. thank you very much for joining us. >> thank you so much. >> i appreciate it. and that is going to do it for me today. "deadline: white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. happy wednesday. it is 4:00 in new york. donald trump is many, many, many things, right. a disgraced twice impeached four times indicted ex-president who has never met a conspiracy

theory he doesn't love wishes nothing more than to become a card carrying member of the autocrats club. but this week and for the coming weeks, he's just another one of america's 400,000 or so criminal defendants. in the trial of the people of the state of new york, versus donald j. trump, the ex-president faces a dynamic in which he has no control. he's subject to the rules of the courtroom, and to orders from judge juan merchan as politico put it, could he attend his son's high school graduation on may 17th. i'll get back to you. may he skip the trial on april 25th to ascend supreme court arguments about whether he's immune from special council jack smith's charges for trying to subvert the 2020 election. not likely, said merchan. can he be exempted from any proceedings that arise on wednesdays? so he could campaign when the court is dark. not if the jury is in. and now to make matters worse

for donald trump, he has to listen to jurors express their filtered honest opinions of them and hear about their means, mocking him. mer shan dismissed one man after he presented a social media post in which the juror wrote this, good news, trump lost his court battle on his unlawful travel ban. along with the suggestion to, quote, lock him up. in other instances merchan refused the efforts to kick off certain prospective jurors including one whose husband shared a post subjecting that the avengers unite against trump. just about the only thing that he has done is earn himself the moniker of sleepy don by seemingly nodding off, resting his eyes, taking a snooze, catching up on some z's on the first day.

it should be no surprise that the washington post reported that on tuesday, quote, during the long day of questioning, trump's mood seems to drift from uninterested to upset. his behavior earned him a slap on the wrist already from the judge. times records that that moment this way. when a potential juror was being interdued about her old facebook post trump began to mutter and gesture judging a rebuke from the judge. i won't tolerate that, the judge said raising his voice once the potential juror had left the room. i will not have any jurors intimidated in this courtroom. now the jury could be seated by the end of the week. opening arguments could start as soon as monday. after which trump will take his seat at the defense table. this is former aides and allies try to cover up a sex scandal with the purpose of keeping it from the voters. even though the allegations are

widely known, some of the people most intimately involved with them have never spoken about them publicly. the ex-president learning that life comes at you fast. during his first criminal trial, is where we begin today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. here with me at table. legal analyst andrew weissmann and attorney and contributor to the atlantic george conway is here and vaughn hillyard is with us at the table and for politico erica orderen is here. and they are spent the last few days around the courthouse and andrew has been chained to the studio here with me. we start with you. >> oh, great. we start with me. >> tell me what you were telling me off air. tell me what the pacing of jury selection means? >> sure. i think that something that surprised people having watched this is this sort of a slow part of the jury selection and a fast

part. so the slow part is the veneer, the first pool comes in and there is a lot of questioning and that is the part where everyone thinks this will take forever. and there is all of the questions asked to find out if they will strike people for cause. they cannot be fair. so there is a lot of questioning and people think that is slow. but once you have all of the questions asked, it is really fast. because there is just -- okay, these people go and then the so-called peremptory challenges, which each side gets up to ten people to strike, the judge goes you, what is your position an that is happening fast and now we're at the next part where the next pool comes in. but we're already at 7. we need to get to 18. i'm pretty sure, unless something unusual happens, that the judge is probably right, that on monday we could see opening arguments. >> and trump is complaining about what you just described. anyone that watch law and order

knows that each side gets to strike. he thought you have as much as you want. >> yeah. so, either listen to your opening i was thinking about when you are a defendant, you have lost control. you are subject to a judge that is a criminal justice system and it is a particular problem for people who are used to be in control. obviously if you used to be the president of the united states, that's sort of the uber position of being in control. but i've seen when you you've prosecuted heads of corporations. and that is part of the issue, but you have to learn to deal with that and you have to learn to trust your counsel. and again, you're out of control. it is somebody else with an expertise and the way you help yourself is getting really good counsel and trusting them. that is his problem. and we saw it in the e. jean carroll case, where you see in

trial, too, by all accounts, he's like i could do this better than my lawyers could. we saw how that worked out. and that to me is the achilles here, if you want a lawyer only doing your bidding and is not going to give you honest, direct advice and not taking control about how to do the case, you know, you brought what is going to happen and i think all signs are that is donald trump's problem. is that he thinks he knows better an in this forum, i don't think he does. >> he's also the boy who cried wolf. this was going to break america. lindsey graham was on tv after alvin brag charged this case a year ago, there will be riots in the street. have any of you walked around new york city today. most people you run into have no idea donald trump is on trial. >> it is very quiet downtown. there wasn't a lot going on except for the tv sets.

and some jersey barriers here and there. it was all a perfectly normal day in lower manhattan. surprisingly. >> except -- >> except we had to go through two levels of security screening because of secret service had an extra -- made them do another one on the 15th floor. but other than that, it felt very ordinary. >> so you were in a unique position in that you are a life long conservative and still a conservative but you've been calling for accountability for wrongdoing the loudest, the longest. what is it like personally to see him on trial? >> it was gratifying in a -- i found the proceedings both interesting and mundane at the same time. i actually fell asleep myself a little bit on monday morning. because it is like, okay, we're listening to this discussion about whether or not the access hollywood tape gets in. and there is no surprise there about the access hollywood tape and the arguments were, i could

make the arguments either way in my sleep. and it put me to sleep at one point. it wasn't -- it was so ordinary. and you've been, you're a trial lawyer and you've been there, sometimes it is the battle is to stay awake during a trial. and there wasn't -- it really wasn't that interesting which was the best thing about it because it showed that this could be normal. it is normal to hold somebody to account. >> you have an interesting perspective on how thin skinned donald trump is. your tweets drove him bat shit crazy. so you drove him out of his mind. what do you think was like for him to hear -- his lawyers went and basically vetted prospective jurors an it is was like, not this one. and he's like let me see. and a giant unflattering

picture. what knows what was on social media. >> he can't help it. he hate watches this network. he might be watching right now. and probably throwing somebody at the television. i don't know. he can't help himself but emotionally react to things. and that is -- and one of the things that you -- he's a narcissistic sociopath and everyone has to get used to it is the reason why you could not normalize him. can you not treat him like a normal human being because he is not. he is unwell. and that is why he can't follow, he's not going to be anyone to follow his lawyers directions. that is why he played right into the plaintiff's hands in the e. jean carroll case. their trying though show he's a jerk and he acts like a jerk in front of the jury and he showed disrespect for the jury.

and the fact of the matter is, he's saying none of this ever happening. where is your testimony. where is your testimony. and that is the interesting thing. is he will be told, it is insane for any lawyer to give him advice to testify in his own defense. but then, you know, what is going to happen when someone like me goes on the show and said, donald, donald, you're scared. you're lawyers are making you look scared. you know -- >> or guilty. >> or guilty, right. and it is go fog start getting more interesting because there is -- as this jury selections go as fast as it is starting to go. it is a thing called a sandoval hearing on friday which is a hearing that you are required to do that you basically go through judge rules on what things the defense -- the defendant can be cross-examined on for prior offenses and prior litigation

and prior stuff. that goes to the defendant's credibility. he's not going to like listening to all of that. >> and what is on that list? what are we waiting to hear? >> there is obvious things. there is the e. jean carol case and the james case and the letitia james case and it is basically sexual assault, defamation and that is for starters. there are things that are less well-known. there are findings for instance by a judge in florida that he got litigation in bad faith and was fined almost a million dollars. there is the tax fraud case that this judge knows very well because he was the judge who over saw that case. and i don't think all of it will come in. and just be clear, this is material that the d.a. is saying should come in in its case in chief and alternatively if we

were to testify to cross-examine him, in many ways this is the least of it. these are just the court findings. imagine the issue for cross-examination, nicolle, you've been covering him for so many years, if you have the opportunity to ask him about all of his lies, you would be sitting there going how do i do triage to figure out which are best ones. because all of that is material that could come in. >> let me ask you. is michael cohen sentencing memo where he is described as individual one and where the facts weren't in dispute. is that something? >> so that is not something that should really be able to come in for the truth of the matter. this is a little in the weeds. it is going to come in when michael cohen testifies. because he needs to sort of explain himself and sort of what the consequences were to sort of

what he had admitted to and what he pled to. but it would be improper for a jury to say just because this person pled to something, that means that person is guilty. that is just to be clear, that is a slightly different thing than michael cohen gets to say i did it and i did it at his direction. so that is the substantive proof, the fact that he then pled guilty to it comes in for sort of a different purpose. >> to the scene, and you were down there as well. but to the scene outside, and i know you got to talk to a lot of dismissed potential jurors. just tell me, i mean speak to sort of what george is getting at, the ordinary/extraordinary dichotomy of the week. >> we've done this a few times and this is the first few trial. i stood outside for each of the indictments and the arraignments and i feel like the taxi driver

that came and picked me up and said what is going on today. it is donald trump's trial. and he goes, oh, and then all of a sudden we get into a conversation about what he's being tried for and this is where the american public is immune to the fact that donald trump is being prosecuted on something to some extent. but you menged that dismissed jurors and one of the fascinating parts is just the number of otherwise normal humans that were walking into the courthouse yesterday and there were 96 of them. and there one was number that i kept track of, it was question 23, every single one of the 96 was asked do you have any strong opinions or firmly held beliefs about former president trump. 21 out of 96 said no. one out of every five. so let's say we take them at their word. that those 21 individuals don't have to -- you know who does, most likely think friends and their family and the people at the churches and the schools. and it is during this trial where they are going to be the focus of attention. even if they don't actually talk to their friend and family.

the world is watching this and we have -- we've all covered other high-profile cases before but this one is different because of the political ramifications and these folks, i'm sure, have friends and family on different sides of the aisle that are looking at them and as the ones who are going to be responsible for whether donald trump is guilty on felony charges six or five months out from a presidential election. >> that is so interesting. because that is a pressure campaign that is a product of this moment in politics. what did you hear relief from the juries that were excused or disappointment. tell me what they said. >> the one dismissed juror, cara who was eager to take part but she was like, my schedule. they provided me an out and i couldn't do it and with him 30 feet away from her, staring her in the eyes and she was just sort of the like the realness of it was so evident. these folks are being asked to give their opinions about donald trump with him standing right there and she could just feel it

and she even talked to her mom before coming in to -- for jury duty knowing that this could be very well the trump trial. there is a realness to this that these seven jurors just swore to take an oath that they will be a part of for the next six to eight weeks and they don't know what is going to get into it and it is life changing and defining and with donald trump sitting in front of them and everybody knows that donald trump has gone after his political enemies and the question is could the jurors become next. >> and donald trump lives at his club and going to the club and the weddings baze they're taking place at his club and his house. and the oval office and the white house, it is his home and his property, his plane and his helicopter when he has to come north he goes to his golf club in bedminster. this courthouse is the courthouse of judge juan merchan and i thought it was clear by

the time he rebuked donald trump for his conduct, mothering is what he used to describe, which is descriptive but derogatory, the day after he fell asleep. way he was treating that juror, was clear that is where merchan's line was. he didn't blow a gasket when he attacked his daughter on social media and intimidation of jurors is not something he will stand for. >> that is true. i think we could assume that he watched slowly at trump stood trials in the other cases and it was very clear in the second carroll case that judge kaplan did not have a lot of patience for his antics and rebuked him many times for interrupting a proceeding, for again muttering, for you know making hand gestures and things like that. at one point during the

proceedings, he just stood up and walked out. and in the middle of i believe it was testimony. i'm not exactly sure. but that is a big difference with this case. we've all seen him in court many times at this point. but he's never had to -- he's never been required to be in court all day every day for six to eight weeks. and you have to imagine that is going to wear on him. >> well it is just amazing to me listening to you and your reporting and your stories from being there. it is through two days and the incredible contrast between what right-wing media does and how it functions and the media simply bringing up the facts. he was rebuked for muttering, that is the judge's quote, but it is just a remacable moment that the presumptive nominee is unbeatable has so far most notable acts have been sleeping and muttering.

it is amazing, right. >> truly. >> do you think it is base even knows? >> it is quite something. and i think the part about this too that i keep coming back to is that we're having this conversation at a time when the players that are involved here are not liz cheney and nancy pelosi, right. the players that are involved in go around are stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, that he had sexual relation and michael cohen and david pecker not brian kemp and john kasich. >> or rusty bowers. >> right. i was there just two blocks away at the hilton on election night when the press riser is michael cohen and these are people that helped him become president of the united states. >> and hope hicks. >> and frustrating part is only beginning because the key figures in his life politics aside are going to be the ones

here, it is not just the nameless faces but these people that were friends of his. >> and inner circle. no one is going anywhere we have so much more to get to. before we head to break. there is news to tell you about from capitol hill. there were two articles of impeachment today against homeland security secretary mayorkas, they have bone failed and they're voting right now to adjourn the trial. we'll monitor those for you. and also ahead, another group of republicans on capitol hill doing the bidding of vladimir putin trying to deny much needed military aid to ukraine. marie you've anovich will be show us what needs to be done. and how january 6 could have gone totally different direction. new testimony, brand new testimony today from two former members of the d.c. national guard about how donald trump could have helped more in the response to the insurrection. but chose not to.

and later in the broadcast, examining the rise of domestic terrorism and extremism through the lens of history. one of the deadliest attacks here at home. the oklahoma city bombing is the topic of a brand-new documentary, and katie couric will join us more live. we're back after a quick break. don't go anywhere today. e back k don't go anywhere today. when i have customers come in and ask for something for memory, i recommend prevagen. number one, because it's effective. does not require a prescription. and i've been taking it quite a while myself and i know it works. and i love it when the customers come back in and tell me, "david, that really works so good for me." makes my day. prevagen. at stores everywhere without a prescription. starting a business is never easy, but starting it eight months pregnant, that's a different story. with the chase ink card, we got up and running in no time. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the

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we had a meeting with ami. >> you told them the story. >> and they didn't think it was very credible. even though off the record they said dylan believes your story, but clearly when they came back they said it wasn't believable. >> yes, we met with people from

abc news. they were very interested in the story. when it came down to it, i just got cold feet. >> once donald trump won the republican nomination. you're saying that ami suddenly came back to you. >> well, to keith, for thetory. >> why do you think it was after donald trump was the republican nominee that they came back? >> they wanted to squash the story. >> you're saying they wanted to protect donald trump? >> i'm assuming so, yeah. but the offer, which we didn't discuss, it they had offered me a big contract for work for modeling and fitness and things like that. >> of course, karen mcdougal describing the catch and kill process. we're back with andrew and george and vaughn and erica. so you were saying in the break, there is a lot that we haven't

seen yet. >> yeah, first, just for things that we think we know, we're going to be hearing that in gruesome detail. and so i think there is just that. but -- >> like what? >> so even just exactly how the catch and kill worked and who was involved and what was the discussions and when it was going to happen. and why they decided for instance one of the key pieces of evidence for the d.a. seems to be to refute the idea that he wants to do this just to keep it from melania is donald trump saying, well lets see if we could do this if it is later and if i lose the election, who cares because i'm not doing this to keep it from my wife, i'm doing it to keep it from the electorate. and on day one of this case, it was monday. but the catch and kill was more than just catch and kill. it was a fake news campaign.

it was to keep information that was damaging to donald trump out. but i think we're going to hear a number of details that the d.a. is correct in what he's proffering about efforts to smear his opponents. so one tidbit is that donald trump was apparently and we're going to hear evidence on this, getting headlines that would run in the "national enquirer" beforehand, for him to approve. so just -- i don't want to call this a major news outlet, but say a media outlet in complete cahoots with a political campaign. i mean, this is -- >> and people laugh at this fact, but "national enquirer" endorses for the first time in publication history, it endorsed donald trump. >> just fast forward to dominion and fox news. this is sort of a horrendous story. this is supposed to be some sort of impartial balance media organization and they are actually working to keep

information, to disseminate false information and all on behalf of one candidate. so i think those kinds of details are going to make this seem much, much more salacious and when you have someone who is running on a fake news campaign, it is -- this is going to be, oh, this is your point, but it is all projection and nothing it new. this is donald trump at ground zero of fake news. >> ted cruz's campaign, i was covering that in the heart of it, and i mean essentially after he worked his way through every single one of the candidates in march of 2023, i remember being in wisconsin and in dane, wisconsin, when the "national enquirer" dropped the allegations that were salacious that he had multiple affairs and cheated on his wife heidi cruz, which they were unfounded an baseless. they were just potentially defamatory and they had implicationed. those were the headlines that drove frankly, we could go back

in time and question our own headlines, but they drove from the new york times to the nbc news the discussion of the republican race there in real time between ted cruz and donald trump. days later, it then came out, the headline, of that ted cruz's father had been engaged in the jfk assassination. that is what we were talking about on may 3rd, the day that ted cruz dropped out of the race. that could have changed history and that's to your point, we don't have the full picture here. but what the prosecution suggested is that they want to bring this evident forward and as someone that covered that race so closely and as an industry where we question how do we cover politics in campaigns, i think it is paramount that we have that full understanding and i think that is what it is going to be so intriguing what the prosecution brings forward. >> hope hicks is on the witness list. there were a lot of profiles done about hope hicks during the first campaign and in one of them there is demeaning

behavior. she was in and out of meetings after rumors of this tape that jim comey tells -- she was involved in everything minuscule and massive, and what does that mean for trump that she's on the witness list. >> she has more credibility than anything else. she was never charged with him. she was with him all of the time. like the body guy. and it is going to be quite remarkable to hear some of this testimony from her. we've never actually heard, i don't think we've heard her really say that much. although maybe there is some exits of january 6 committee hearings. but then to go back to pecker, the ami guy, didn't he come to the white house, didn't he come to the white house in like february of 2017 and donald trump thanked him for helping with the campaign. and that is going to be testimony. he's going to be -- that is evidence. what he whats doing. >> what does the line of questioning look like? he gets on stand and the

prosecutor asks him what? >> remember, this starts in 2015 and it is all the way up until he's at -- until he's president and you're going to have a timeline. you do this, first, michael cohen will be about what he pled guilty to and you do that. but with pecker, it might start with let's talk about the resolution and that you were essentially given immunity but you had to come and be truthful and then it is started from how did you meet him and what were the key conversations and it is going to be like chapter and verse. and as he tells the story, you're then going to have all of the documents that corroborate it. now a key way to do this, it is a slow interview, which is you have them tell the stories and then you go to the documents and essentially have them retell the story through all of the documents an the jury sees this is corroborated. including with david pecker, it is interesting to see what the

cross going to be. this is not michael cohen where he'll have to admit that he committed perjury and he's going to say that he did it for donald trump. but there are so many witnesses and one of the hard things for defense counsel is to you have to pick your battles because if you start going hammer and tongs at david pecker and then it turns out it is corroborated on -- with a document or hope hicks is going to come in and say, yeah, that is what happened, you lost so much credibility with the jury. and i suspect we're all going to get a lesson it trial tactics and just to put a shout out for josh stein, the lead prosecutor is exceptional. they are putting their best foot forward. >> what are you looking for in the pecker testimony? >> well, pecker is of all of the peep who are going to testify, i think probably the most critical person who has really never spoken publicly about this.

and you were talking about the fake news, let's call it a campaign, he's essential to that. he was having the conversations directly with donald trump. he was having conversations with his own internal people at the "national enquirer" and what to publish and when to publish it. and we've been talking about michael cohen as this star witness. but i think it is really david pecker. he's going to be the narrator for this entire thing. >> you look at how donald trump has talked about his 88 phony charges and there is a lot of bravado about the federal charges. he runs on the insurrection, he honors the insurrectionists, he described them, the violent ones as hostages. on mar-a-lago, he constantly talks to his supporters and conservative media, sean hannity and others, i was allowed to do

it, they were personal records stuffed in there with my underwear. doesn't ever brag about, other than the access hollywood tape, but he doesn't brag about the alleged sex with karen mcdougal or with stormy daniels, or the alleged hush money payments that were filtered there you michael cohen that rudy giuliani went on fox news and confessed to on live television. he doesn't talk about the facts which is in trump terms pretty telling. >> he doesn't talk much about the facts or even the questions that are at stake. you don't hear him talk about stormy daniels all that much over the years he put out social media post and there is the one in 2018 calling her horse face. just sort of dehumanizing stormy daniels. but when it comes to the actual substance and the facts he's denied the allegations from mcdougal and stormy daniels, and at the same time we haven't heard him talk about the august 15th meeting at trump that he was engaged in with michael cohen. he has not answered questions

over where he was reimbursing michael cohen with monthly checks. he hasn't talked about -- >> remind everyone what that meeting is. >> the meeting if august of 2015 was at trump tower, and michael cohen is part of his plea agreement and he is saying that this meeting happened with david pecker in which these conversations took place about the catch and kill scheme. and potentially fighting a way to make sure that the stories do not come out. these are questions that donald trump has not been posed and not responded to. and when you go through this case here, right, he kind of, when he has been confronted with them, what do you think you were paying michael cohen for and well he did a lot of work for me. if he were to testify, as he suggested last week he would, the testimony would come at the end of the trial and if this evidence that andrew is suggesting could very well be there, it is building a body of evidence that i as a reporter have a hard time knowing that we have attempted to ask him these questions and he's been slow to respond to and i have a hard

time believing that he would willing face cross-examination for what are tough questions that frankly me as a reporter, i would love to ask and have answers to. and i'm sure that the jury would as well. >> i'm sure they would as well. you're do diplomatic. i want you to give the last question, george. there is a vantage point where you have, where you sort of had maybe more intimate knowledge to what trump was seeking to keep hidden as a candidate in that transition period before you became one of the loudest voices warning us. how bad do you think it is. >> i think it is pretty bad. i think he was very concerned about it. i'll tell a story i haven't told too publicly before, i remember that evening when anderson cooper interviewed mcdougal. i was sitting at dinner with my ex-wife and jared kushner and

ivanka trump and the phone rings and she goes into the kitchen and answers the phone. oh, it is daddy. and what did he want to know. whether they were watching karen mcdougal. so he was -- he was very, very concerned about it. >> i remember talking to chris christie around the time that michael cohen was ensnared and after mueller had all of the other folks and he said, no, this is the thing that really scares trump. this is the thing that really endangers him. what do you think is going through trump's head right now? >> oh, the same stuff that always goes through his head. it is about him. he's being picked on, poor me. and how he basically hates everyone who out to get him and they're all out to get him and everybody does what i did except worse and they're getting away

with it and, you know, i'm going to stick it to everybody. and if i win, i'm really going to stick to it everybody. that is what the government of the you the would be on january 21, 2025, it would be his revenge tour an that is how a narcissist acs. >> and he's running as retribution. we're not -- >> he's running both to stay out of prison and for retribution. it is all wrapped together in his warped twisted. >> yeah. a remarkable gathering on this remarkable day. thank you so much to all of you for coming to table. and andrew weissmann and vaughn hillyard and what a treat, thank you. before we go, we have another quick update for you from what has been going on on capitol hill today. senate has voted 51-49 to adjourn the impeachment trial of

secretary alejandro mayorkas. meaning the trial is over for good and forever. the house gop effort to impeach mayor cass is dead. up next for us, it could happen here. former u.s. ambassador to ukraine marie uyv anovich was the target of a came led by then president donald trump and rudy giuliani and other allies. we'll talk to her what that would look like in a second trump term should he prevail in november. don't go anywhere.

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it is our commitment. we need to do this. i think what a ukrainian would tell us is this fight is your fight. because it may seem that ukraine is to far away and doesn't really matter and i hear talking heads say we have no strategic interest there. but we do. because ukraine is a struggling democracy, it has been moving forward over the last 30 years. and if we allow an autocrat to brutally subjugate a developing democracy, what comes next? >> that from follower u.s. ambassador to ukraine is just as true today as it was at the start of russia's brutal war, when it starts two years ago. this calls from the veteran diplomat are largely going

unheeded by many house republicans. after months of inaction, house speaker mike johnson finally outlined a path forward for aid to ukraine. which has outraged many in his own party who appear willing and enthusiastic to do the bidding of vladimir putin. and has led to an increasely loud call for his oust as speak. with ukraine lives being left to the house republican caucus, here is how one correspondent in ukraine for politico lays out the consequences. just ask a ukrainian soldier if he still believes that the west will stand by kyiv for as long as it takes. that pledge rings hollow since it is four weeks. it is not just that ukraine forces are running out of ammunition, western delays over sending aid mean the country dangerously hard, the fighting

spirit required to win. joining us now as part of our series american autocracy, marie yovanovich. >> it is amazing that trump is still there. that he held military aid for ukraine and there was the testimony from you and from ambassador taylor and from everyone who was in the country about the hot active war that the ukrainians were fighting against russia, our adversary and life and death nature of u.s. aid which still enjoys a lot of support from the american people and democrats and many republicans and here we are again. what is the consequences of our inaction. >> the consequence right now of our inaction, and i'm hopeful now that speaker johnson is putting the four bills on the floor that aid for ukraine will be voted on and voted positively and hopeful that we'll get the ukrainians what we need. but the consequences are that

ukrainians, as your correspondent noted, they can't fire back. there is something called the shell hunger, where artillery is needed to shoot back and the consequences of our inability to get our act together is that ukraines are dying. and they're dying on the front lines. but they're also dying in their cities and in their villages. because russia is targeting civilian infrastructure and many civilians are dying. so it is really unconscionable and i'm hopeful that this week will see a positive vote. >> you're the target of a russian disinformation campaign that affected republican actors and they maligned you and speared you with lies. what do you think when you hear house republican officials currently serving in the party that has been taken over by russian disinformation. does it seem that the problem has gotten worse? >> it does seem that the problem has gotten worse.

i mean, russia, china and iran are all very competent in terms of their disinformation and of course attacks as well. russia is the leader in this -- in this. and russia knows just how to find our weak spot, divide us. they're not looking for the truth, they're just looking to confuse us and i think they have been able to confuse a lot of americans. including some of our elected leaders. and so, i'm glad that some republicans are calling it out for what it is. because we need to put the truth on the table about what is going on. we are now, by not applying -- by not supporting ukraine, we're acting in russia's interest. and i don't think that is anything that any american wants to do. >> i think the ukrainians were on to this before we were. this is their concern. this is the urgency that

zelenskyy felt and it feels like the lies told by putin are now peddled back to americans by republican lawmakers. how do you -- what do you do? >> well, i think that we just need to have a clear message from the administration about what the stakes are. and not only what the stakes are for ukraine, a struggling democracy, being brutally attacked by a totalitarian state and if russia is successful in that endeavor, what that that would mean for ukraine which is existential issue, right. they could destroy ukrainians as a people. but for european security, the european economic strength and don't forget, i mean we often talk about our economic partners. but the e.u., all of the countries of the e.u., they are our largest economic partner. we have interests in europe, both security and economic and political. and so, if vladimir putin is

successful in ukraine, he will try to absorb it, i think this is going to be a very difficult feat because i do believe there will be a gorilla war. and i think then he would move on. he's written us. and he has said this. he's acting on it. >> move on to poland or -- >> another country, yeah. maybe moldova. there are lot of candidates that he has put out there. and he's using disinformation and -- to create the political -- the informational landscape to normalize further attacks. to normalize what he's doing. so for example with moldova, he's gotten thisknow, this puppet government, the puppet parliament to vote that, you know, they may ask for assistance from the russian government so that if he does move in, you know, this has all been prestaged. people have had a lot of time to kind of absorb the news.

it isn't shocking. we knew he was going to do this all along. it's really diabolical. >> that's what trump does, right? be a dictator on day one. so his supporters say we knew he was going to do this. i want to ask you more about how trump's moves towards orban and others are read around the globe. we have to sneak in a quick break. will you stick around? >> absolutely. >> we will be right back. don't go anywhere. olutely. >> we will be right back don't go anywhere. [meowing] (♪♪) hi, what's your name? this is our new friend.

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we're back with former u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch. we've tried to put this question on the table about american autocracy, and the idea, just asking the questions makes a lot of people uncomfortable. if you just look at trump's behavior, he is, as you said in the last block, he is running on a way to normalize autocracy, including this very, very close meeting where he lauded viktor orban. how are those moves read around the world? >> i think that they are read very favorably by our adversaries. you just need to look at the russian news and what putin says. they're very pleased with what is happening and the divisions in the house and our inability to get assistance to ukraine. so there's that, but our allies and our partners are very concerned as well. they don't know what's coming next in our elections, but they're also concerned by what they're seeing on the hill. i mean, it's not ukraine that's

failing right now. it's the u.s. that is failing now, and they wonder whether there are other failures to come, whether they can really count on u.s. assistance. we've always been there. are we going to be there in the future? and so that creates a world where countries start to hedge, right? because they need to take care of their national security. they want to be with us, but are we going to be there for them. and that creates a world where if they're not sure that we're going to be there for them, we can't be sure that they're going to be there for us, and so when you think about nato, you know, the storied collective defense pact. the most successful defense pact in the history of the world, in 75 years we have only invoked article 5, the defense of one is the defense of all once. >> us. >> yeah, after 9/11. >> they came to our defense. >> exactly. >> does trump understand that? >> you know, i don't know. all i can say is that given the statements he's made, given, you

know, what his former advisers say he is likely to do if he were to become president again, pull out of nato perhaps, he must not understand that that we have actually gotten more out of nato than any other country. >> the alliance has given to us more than we've given to it in terms of article 5, which he keys in on and blasts all the time. >> exactly. i hope we can continue to call on you. it's a privilege to get to talk to you. thank you so much for being here today. coming up for us, damning brand new testimony earlier today from national guard leaders on how the ex-president's inaction on january 6th made matters much worse for the first responders that day. we'll have that new reporting for you next. don't go anywhere. don't go anyw. why would i use kayak to compare hundreds of travel sites at once?

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i was in the vicinity of a conversation where i overheard the president say something to the effect of, you know, i didn't care that they have

weapons. they're not here to hurt me. take the e effing mags away. let the people in. take the effing mags away. >> commander in chief, we've got an assault on the capitol of the united states of america. nothing. no call, nothing, zero. >> nothing, zero. that's what trump did. hi again, everybody. it's 5:00 in new york. it is an inconvenient truth for trump. it's proven its true time and again including today. however bad things seem from those of us watching from the outside looking in at donald trump's conduct as president, it actually happened in the room in secret, it always turns out it was much, much worse. we knew, for instance, even on the very afternoon that the insurrection took place at the u.s. capitol that the disgraced ex-president was derelict, simply by having summoned that mob and acting too late to stop it. the reality is worse.

the january 6th select committee made clear trump didn't merely sit on his hands while his supporters threatened to hang mike pence or abduct lawmakers. as you saw, he actively resisted calls from his family, from his allies, from his cabinet to bring in reinforcements, law enforcement, and to disperse those ransacking our seat of government. today, though, we learned that even though we knew all that, it was worse than all that because according to two former leaders of the d.c. national guard, if trump or by extension the penalty gone had effectively reached out that day, they were ready. they were ready to swing into action. they had a plan to secure the u.s. capitol. michael brooks was the senior and listed leader of the d.c. guard on january the 6th. here's what he told a house subcommittee on oversight investigating security failures at the capitol today, this morning. >> what i can tell you with absolute certainty is that we had a force equipped and ready

to respond and despite the inaccuracies of the dodig report we had a plan and would have liked the opportunity to try. instead we waited for hours, less than two miles east of the capitol building absolutely frustrated knowing our capitol had been breached and not understanding why we had not received the authorization to respond. i cannot tell you the number of times someone has asked me where were you? where was the national guard or how can you call yourselves capitol guardians? there is no easy response to those questions and the truth is we were there, and we were ready. we just weren't authorized to respond and that is difficult to explain. the soldiers and airmen of the d.c. national guard deserve better. >> we were there. we were ready. trump wasn't just reluctant to save lives including his own vice president's to keep the

peace. it was an outright rejection to do so. even as help was standing by. quote, we were ready. begs the question once again, if he was capable of such a callous disregard for the safety of republican lawmakers, democratic lawmakers and democracy the last time around, what on earth would he do with a second term? that's where we start the hour with some of our favorite reporters and friends. "politico" national correspondent and msnbc contributor, betsy woodruff swan is here, plus democratic congressman eric swalwell of california joins us and former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee tim heaphy is back. congressman, your thoughts to what you heard today? >> me, me, me. that is always going to be the priority when it comes to donald trump, and it couldn't have happened to the country on a worse day than january 6th. he's not an america first president, he's a me first

president, and we see that in every way that he tries to lead. and so it's not surprising that he could have done more and didn't, and by the way, if his defense is -- and i see this in my own lawsuit that we have against him for january 6th, if his defense is no, no, no, the mob that was there took me, you know, figuratively -- they took me literally rather than figuratively when i said we're going to the capitol and we had to fight like hell. well, if it was a mistake for them to go there or they misinterpreted you, wouldn't you do everything in your power once you saw those violent images of police officers being beaten at capitol to stop that and to send them home and to have reinforcements from the guard come in? he did nothing. we can derive from the absence of action his motive and his intent. >> yeah, i mean, congressman, the evidence is turned up by the select committee is even bleaker than that. this is some questioning from your fellow panelist tim heaphy

of pat cipollone. >> continues throughout the period of time up until 4/17 continue to push for a stronger state? >> yes. >> were you joined in that effort by ivanka trump. >> yes. >> by mark meadows is this. >> yes. >> white house counsel's office wanted there to be a strong statement out to condemn the rioters. i'm confident in that. >> so it goes beyond well, we didn't mean for them to be violent. we didn't mean for them to hang mike pence. once he saw, everybody saw and everybody tried to get him to stop and he was still unwilling to do so. what in your view explains the fact that there still hasn't been legal accountability for donald trump? >> yeah, that he is a legal terrorist who has 40 years of experience, probably more than any person in america, with lawsuits and tieing up the

system and seeking to delay, delay, delay, and so it's coming, though, nicolle. there's a tapestry of accountability that he's seeing in the civil and criminal realms right now. it's not coming as fast as it should, but it's coming, and he's going to have to answer for all of it, but as we think through like what would a trump presidency look like knowing that he, you know, failed to protect the country and the capitol that day, well, what do you think could happen if you have a distracted, selfish, vengeful president who only cares about himself and america is, in another way, under attack as we have so many, you know, adversaries around the world and vulnerabilities in our country. would he protect us and save us, or would he again do what's in the best interests of him? he's a me, me president. he was on january 6th, and he would be if he was president again. >> i don't get to see this very often, mark esper agrees with you. let me show you what he had to

say about donald trump. >> i think he's unfit for the presidency. what i look for in a candidate is somebody who puts the country first, somebody who has character and integrity, somebody that can unify the country and somebody that can lead. in my estimation donald trump doesn't check any of those boxes. so i'm going to continue to say that when asked, and i'm going to continue to let people know that as somebody that worked directly for him, not just as secretary of defense, but keep in mind i was secretary of the army for nearly two years. i don't think he's the right person for our country. i will not be supporting him, but otherwise, look, i think his record's out there at this point in time, voters either know -- if they don't know who he is, then they've been sleeping in a cave somewhere. >> what is the special obligation of former national security officials to tell people what they saw? >> it's the highest it's ever been because the consequences of us getting it wrong again are

too high, and we could be attacked, you know, in a way that, you know, could seriously jeopardize our country's security with a commander in chief who's just not up for defending america's interests because he's putting his own first. and so if you saw something you should probably now say something because we have six months to go and americans should go to the ballot box fully aware of what would happen, you know, if that, you know, quote unquote, 3:00 a.m. or 3:00 p.m., you know, decision has to be made as it was in this case on january 6th. >> tim heaphy, here is a product of the investigation that you oversaw. the oath keepers on that day. >> cnn just said that they evacuated all members of congress into a safety room. >> there's no safe place in the united states for any of

these -- right now. let me tell you. >> they understand that we are not joking around. >> military principle 105. military principle 105, cave means grave. >> trump just tweeted pleas support our capitol police. they are on our side. do not harm them. >> that's saying a lot by what he didn't say. he didn't say not to do anything to the congressmen. >> well, he did not ask them to stand down. he just said stand by the capitol police, they are on our side and they are good people. >> tim heaphy, what was the significance of that? what they heard again was he did not tell us to stand by, to stand down? >> yeah, i've always, nicolle, thought that the actual language of the president's tweets that afternoon was really significant. the first thing he does is he

criticizes mike pence and calls him a coward, which only amps up the energy in the crowd, and then the next two tweets use the words stay and remain, stay peaceful, remain peaceful. he doesn't tell anybody to leave. that very strong evidence that he appreciated the the motives of the crowd and, frankly, intended for the joint session to be interrupted. i want to say something significant about the national guard. the national guard was not waiting for president trump to give the green light. to be fair, the president has overall command of the d.c. guard, but he has delegated the authority to deploy the guard to first the secretary of defense and then from the secretary of defense to the secretary of the army. so it was acting secretary miller and secretary of the army ryan mccarthy who had the immediate authority to deploy the guard. now, had the president of the

united states in the middle of the riot urged haste, urged deployment of the guard, arguably it would have made a difference. mike pence was doing that as general milley said, it was mike pence on the phone taking control saying where's the forward? guard. milley also said in the middle of that mark meadows called him and said, hey, we have to tamp down on the narrative that the vice president is in charge. the president is still the commander in chief, and milley is incredulous because he has not heard from president trump. president trump never calls, milley never calls mccarthy, never calls acting secretary miller, never calls any police or military agency. we've got to be clear that the authority to deploy the guard has been delegated to the secretary of the defense and ultimately to the secretary of the army and the national guardsmen who have testified today told the same thing to the select committee, they were frustrated that that order to deploy did not come faster. they're sitting still for a period of time when they could have been moving toward the capitol. all of this is laid out in

appendix 2 of the select committee report in great detail. >> congressman, did you want to jump in on that? >> yes, only to add, look, being on the floor that day one thing that struck me was as we were leaving the floor and going to the evacuation room, i was at times running, moving quickly, or stopped with republicans who were at the ellipse with the president that day. and i was so naive looking back on it now to think at the time, well, this is rock bottom. we're all running for our lives now. hopefully this is what it takes to bring us all together. i really thought that in that moment. instead it was just hours later that they would go back to the floor after the violence to continue to try and overturn the election and now erase that day in the minds of the voters and to rewrite it to acquit donald trump. so we've actually gone in the wrong direction from where i thought we were as was just

described as we were running for our lives. >> betsy, will you just broaden this a little bit? why is there still -- and you heard in the hearing today, you know, there's contradiction -- the witness testimony contradicts the dod i.g. report. he calls it, quote, inaccurate. what is the discrepancy in the after-action reporting coming out of the pentagon and the national guard? >> that there was significant tension and dispute between the way the pentagon described what happened on january 6th and the way that the leaders of the d.c. national guard described what happened. the pentagon put out a version of events that essentially was exculpatory for the military as a whole, while leaders of the d.c. national guard were unequivocal that there were substantial failures at the highest level of the pentagon when it came to these questions of leadership. notably in the dod's official time line of january 6th, which we obtained and published at "politico" about two years ago, the defense department describes

multiple conversations that happened between top dod leaders and the person who was then head of the d.c. national guard, general william walker who went on to become the house sergeant at arms. general walker told me that those conversations never actually happened, so there was an extraordinary friction, extraordinary disagreement between these two camps when it came to where the leadership failure came from. one really important piece of context here that makes the delayed response of the d.c. national guard so jarring and which was highlighted by one of the whistle-blowers whose account we first published two years ago is that the d.c. national guard was really good at quickly responding to civil unrest by january 6th, 2021. that's because this group of soldiers was deployed multiple times during the protests that followed the murder of george floyd in the summer of 2020 to protect federal buildings in washington, d.c. they knew the drill. they knew how to move fast. they knew how to keep protesters

away from important sites. but on january 6th because of egregious leadership failures, those skilled soldiers were forced to sit on their hands and weren't deployed. going back to tim's point, what we know for sure is there was a leadership failure, and now what two of these witnesses have testified is if the president had made a phone call and essentially said what's going on? why is the guard moving so slowly? why aren't people there keeping the capitol building safe? that leadership failure could potentially have been remedied hours, hours earlier than it was. did a lot of people do very poorly and fail to cover themselves in glory on january 6th? absolutely, particularly when we look at the shocking -- the shocking failure to have capitol building secured, the appalling intelligence failures. the fact that dhs told the army half an hour after the barricades around the capitol building were breached that there were no major incidents of law breaking in d.c. at that time.

lots of people failed, but ultimately it's the responsibility of the president to control the military. the buck stops with him, and the fact that while this violence was unfurling according to these witnesses, according to every witness, the president was sigh silent, it just speaks volume. >> tim, to betsy's point, the select committee's presentation, i think it was a public hearing about dereliction of duty, and i believe vice chair liz cheney led that hearing. it was all about what trump didn't do, but you look at what he did do. he's never evacuated. . there was never any intelligence that suggested he was in any danger. it was abundantly clear once the vice president runs down the stairs into the garage and refuses to leave he was in danger. i mean, it seems that there are so many layers of failure, the pentagon, will it ever all be untangled and made public? >> yeah, look, i think a lot of

it has been made public. betsy is 100% correct. there is a real disconnect between the d.c. national guarded's view, which was we're ready. we do this all the time. we're sitting on our hands for two hours waiting for authority to go to the capitol. whose fault is that? is that ryan mccarthy dithering? the point is the president of the united states never engaged. meanwhile, mike pence from the loading dock having to run for his life is doing all he can to try to expedite that process. instead, nicolle, as you were just suggesting, the president is on the phone with members of congress asking them about potential objections to the particular certification, anticipating that he still wants to perpetuate this fake elector driven political coup. he's not focused on the health and safety of his vice president or the men and women like congressman swalwell at the capitol, he's continuing to think about some way to prevent the certification of the

election, dereliction of duty is exactly how ms. cheney and the other members characterized it, and no facts that have come forth since then in today's hearing or otherwise changed that core -- that core truth. >> yeah, betsy, i always -- you know, i remember your reporting. we had you on when "politico" broke those stories, and when pence comes out and becomes the first vice president in american history, not just politics but in our country's history, first ever vice president not to endorse the president for whom he served, i wondered at that moment if he ever regretted not making the fact that it was mike pence who was essentially acting as the country's commander in chief on that day, i wonder if he has any regrets about the kind of campaign he ran. do you have any insights into that? >> that's a great question. it's hard to say. pence keeps things so close to the vest, and has really tried to have it both ways when it

comes to the republican party as it exists to this day. trying to distance himself from trump without isolating trump supporters, and what we see with where -- with the position he finds himself in in american public life now is that that's impossible. any level of criticism of the former president whatsoever is absolutely intolerable to the people who support him and who are totally, totally devoted to trump and the politics of it for pence, of course, are completely untenable, and that's why his presidential campaign ended up being so short, so unsuccessful. it's clear that pence and the people around him just didn't read the room when it came to what the republican party looks like right now, how it functions in american society. >> and it may not have even been right in the room, the dye may have been cast when he refused to do trump's bidding on that

day. thank you all so much for spending time with us on this story. we're really grateful. when we come back, arizona republicans once again blocked efforts by democrats to repeal their state's harsh civil war era ban on abortion, and it actually gets worse from there. newly revealed plans show how republicans plan to confuse and try to trick voters over the issue in the november election. we'll explain next. plus, a brand new documentary tracing the rise of right wing extremism that led to the deadliest domestic terror attack on american soil ever, a time that bears disturbing parallels to the threat environment we're living in now. we'll be joined here at the table by katie couric on their new film, an american bombing, the road to april 19th. that's coming up later in the hour. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. don't go anywhere. ick break. don't go anywhere.

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to the people of the state of arizona, your choice is clear. if you believe that a 12-year-old who has been raped by her stepfather, should be forced to give birth, vote for the republican party. if you believe that families and medical providers should make their own decisions about their futures, vote for democrats. period. we are in an election cycle that is truly about freedom versus fascism, and we are seeing it play out in realtime. >> state representatives in arizona today after republicans there in the legislature once again blocked efforts to repeal

arizona's 160-year-old near total ban on abortion health care, which the arizona state supreme court upheld just over one week ago. in the aftermath of the court's decision, republicans in arizona tripped all over themselves to distance themselves from this law, claiming that despite many of them previously praised the law, which was first enacted when women didn't have the right to vote, they have done nothing to undo it, and they miraculously oppose those efforts to unravel it. once again, when it comes to abortion karak success and reproductive freedom, republicans have no qualms about lying to voters about their incredibly unpopular positions. nbc news is reporting that a secret gop strategy document reveals that republicans in the state are doing everything they can to undermine efforts to repeal the 1864 law and enshrine abortion rights. the document outlines a plan to give the voters alternatives to

a pro-abortion rights ballot initiative, presenting options for other constitutional amendments in an effort to confuse voters and pull voters from the measures that would actually protect abortion access. one of which includes a six-week abortion ban. if you needed any further proof that republicans have no concern for the lives and the health of wome who will be impacted once the 1864 law takes effect, the presentation ends with a late night host seth meyers with the text boom, easy as that. wow. joining our conversation, president of reproductive freedom for all, i can't get through the news anymore on this because it's so dumb, and you meet people in your life, right? i do what i do, you do what you do, but you meet people in your life who really -- they don't know which trial started on monday in new york. they're not sure what juries are being picked for. they're not sure which republican is now the speaker of

the house, right? who they got rid of mccarthy. but everybody knows that roe fell because trump appointed people who promised to overturn roe versus wade. so all of this we're going to do a plan to trick the voters and maybe they won't know. everybody knows, everybody knows what republicans have done. >> you know, i was just in arizona with the vice president and ruben gallego who's running a fantastic race for the u.s. senate against kari lake. i was there on the ground in tucson and in phoenix with our activists, our members, folks are angry. folks are energized. that really powerful clip you played of state legislators gathering, i was really proud that our state director was leading the way with activism outside of the state house today and literally up until the minute that i got on the show, i'm reading text messages on the ground from folks in arizona about the procedural chaos in

the arizona legislature, but here's what she conveyed to me that i want to convey to listeners. republicans are entirely responsible not just from -- not just donald trump bragging about overturning roe, which led to the consequence of a republican-led supreme court in arizona to bring back a free statehood territorial total abortion ban in arizona, today they have had a chance, a clear shot at repealing it and they blocked themselves from doing it with a crowd of anti-abortion activists screaming scripture at the legislatures, and this goes to a -- i'm just painting this picture for you. this goes to the core thing i talked about on your show, and we've talked about with our membership and voters all through the last couple of years. the republicans cannot disentangle themselves from the extremists in their party, no matter how much they try and pretend that they're on the side of reason and the side of decency, they cannot.

they are ruled by extremists. they are empowered by extremists and they are truly themselves extremists, and that is how we are here today and why they can't get out of it. >> so 81% of americans, that number is higher than it's ever been, believe that abortion should be legal in all or most -- or believe it should be between a woman and her doctor. 76% of all americans, the highest number we've seen in a long time believe abortion should be legal in all or most instances. 93% of all americans are against bans that eliminate exceptions in the case of rape and incest. the republicans are with this increasingly skinny slice of the electorate. what are they doing? >> yeah, and in arizona, it's nine out of ten. the number is even higher in arizona. so they are -- they were -- they thought maybe they could try like kari lake and donald trump to persuade republicans in arizona that they could repeal this ban, and what are they

thinking? they're listening to the most extreme part of their base but also they are the most extreme part of their base, the legislators in arizona, the leadership of that legislature, they are themselves extreme. they believe in this ban. i mean, kari lake when she was running against katie hobbs just a minute ago called it a great law, a great ban. they believe this stuff. they're only pretending to be conflicted about it because they've been caught in the act, and it's a disaster for them at the polls. so you know, going into this election, it's going to be really critical that we remind folk who did this and we keep playing back their words because they're just out there. there's no rational response to something when you have a fundamentalist irrational belief. >> right, that isn't something that was unearthed in a fantastic peas of investigative journalism, it is their position. and when given opportunity after

opportunity to save women now, i mean, the tragedy in arizona is that women's lives are at risk now. i think it goes into effect this week, and republicans actively refuse to do that. mini, thank you very much for joining us today on this story. we'll stay on it. when we come back, the rise of right wing domestic violent extremism, it's happening now in our country, but it also happened before in the years leading up to the worst domestic terrorist attacks in u.s. history. the oklahoma city bombing. katie couric and mark levitt will be here with their new documentary. ith their new documentary. c shrimp scampi. it's time to grab some cheddar bays and get flavorfull. hurry in to try shrimp your way, only at red lobster.

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i would be hard pressed to think of a time where so many threats to our public safety and national security were so elevated all at once, but now increasingly concerning is the potential for a coordinated attack here in the homeland akin to the isis-k attack we saw at the russia concert hall just a couple of weeks ago. >> that was fbi director christopher wray on his own unprecedented assessment of the threat environment here in the united states. this heightened danger that his bureau and other security officials flagged again on friday of domestic violent extremism as well, and small groups or lone wolf actors who could be inspired to carry out attacks right here. 29 years ago this week, the united states saw the single

deadliest act of domestic terrorism in our country's history, the bombing of a federal government building in oklahoma city. it killed 168 people that day. the number included 19 children in a day care. it injured hundreds of others. a brand new hbo documentary film explores the surge in anti-government extremist white national movement and home grown political violence, before and after april 19th, 1995. emotionally charged warnings from those who lost loved ones in the attack. let's watch. >> i heard a very loud explosion from downtown oklahoma city. >> i am thinking april 19th, april 19th, okay. >> april 19th was the siege in waco. >> my life and experience told me this was a home grown plot. >> this was a plan that was hatched ten years earlier during the late '70s and early '80s.

there was anger against the federal government's exploitation of farmers. >> everybody in the movement saw the farm crisis as the government making war with the american people. >> the white power movement had come together. recruiting active duty troops, veterans, most notably timothy mcveigh. >> tim mcv of the group that wanted to declare war on america. the far right want movement wanted to blow up the myrrh building. >> mcveigh was a tragic example of a guy who thought our differences were more important than what we have in common. >> joining us now emmy award winners katie couric, executive producer of this documentary, american bombing the road to april 19th and the film's director, mark levin. i said it wrong again. i'm sorry. i think about oklahoma city all the time when we cover the various warnings that come out

of the department of homeland security because it represents the worst-case scenario. tell me how you came to make this film? >> well, i did a film 28 years ago for nbc called "oklahoma city one year later" with bill moyers. i was there in the aftermath. stayed connected to a number of people i met back then, and then katie was over at our friends at hbo talking about some ideas she had, and it came up -- because she was there also, and they said, well, you two should get together. we did. we hit it off, and that's how it started. >> you were there for the "today" show. >> yes, yes, i'll never forget that day. i think it happened an hour after we were off the air, and it was just pure chaos and one of the things, nicolle, i remember distinctly is that everyone thought it was islamic terrorism, and that was sort of the narrative that was happening for the first hour or so because

i think we couldn't really conceive of the idea that an american had done this to other americans. i think what mark does so brilliantly in this film is really trace the evolution of this movement and the fact that it really started in the early '80s in arkansas and kind of metastasized slowly through the decades, and april 19th obviously became a very significant day, not simply because of waco and oklahoma city, but because of patriots day and what this day has come to symbolize to this far right extremist movement. >> and waco, talk about the connection between oklahoma city and waco. >> well, it was really amazing because mark and his producer partner daphne pinkerson discovered video of timothy mcveigh at waco. >> at waco, yeah. >> he was handing out anti-government brochures and talking to a lot of people.

we have soundbites from him at waco, and he was very upset about the government overreach there. what was he exactly upset about in waco, mark? >> well, he was very upset that the same military vehicles that he had used in the gulf war were being citizens, and in his mind to see the militarization of law enforcement -- >> it was also the drugs, the drug angle, right? >> that was the atf came up where they'd -- >> a rationale really. >> a rationale so it would legit matte the use of military equipment. that was one of his grievances, the war on drugs and the militarization of law enforcement. so when he saw those tanks puncturing and firing tear gas into the compound, he said that was the moment he decided he was going to commit an act of

domestic terrorism. >> and then he goes about plotting it for two years undetected? >> well, the question of whether it was undetected or not is certainly one that is still being discussed, but there's no doubt that for two years -- >> tell me about that. what do you mean? among who? >> amongst writers that have written about it, filmmakers that have done documentaies about it. the whole question of what intelligence the fbi and the atf had on these extremist right wing organizations. as katie said, the plot to blow up the murrow building was first hatched in 1983. now, i didn't know that when we went back in 1995, but i know it was reported, but i never picked it up. and the idea that this movement kind of coalesced because there have always been, as you're well aware, antigovernment forces. patriot's day is the first shot in the revolutionary war, the

shot heard around the world at lexington and concord, but this coming together of people that normally wouldn't talk to each other, like skin heads and christian identity, that all started under reagan in and around 1983 and there was a declaration of war against the united states government and they targeted the murrow building. >> and what was really interesting, nicolle, when they started this movement, we heard how they took advantage of disenfranchised veterans and timmy mcveigh was really lost, was having severe emotional problems, ptsd. but earlier in the early '80s, the farm crisis that left where a lot of these farms were taken away and people were left without any finances and president reagan refused to bail out the farmers, then that was another group of very vulnerable receptive anti, you know, people who were angry at the government

who were also kind of radicalized and recruited for this movement. so that was another really interesting thing how when there's, you know, people are upset with the government or feel victimized by the government. >> the grievances. >> yes, they are very ripe for the picking when it comes to these far right extremist organizations. >> for you to be here is such an honor, the first person who ever hired me in television, and to watch you answer questions about your own project fills my heart with joy and relief. we're going to do two things. there are some clips that i want to show. we have two more clips that you guys brought us. i also want to ask both of you what we should be taking from oklahoma city as we try to understand this fraught moment in our politics. we have to sneak in a quick break first, we'll all be right back. k first, we'll all be righ back

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or a similar type of treatment, ask your retina specialist about eylea hd today, for the potential for fewer injections. i went to the back side of the building, which would be on the side of the day care center. they had about 10 to 12 children laid out on a piece of concrete slab, and they were just laid one next to the other, and at the very end to the right i found colton. you know, i knew that'd be the last time i saw my nephew, and then i asked a state law enforcement officer that was there if i could reach town and hug him and kiss him good-bye, and he told me this is a crime

scene. do not touch the evidence. >> still unthinkable. that's a clip from this new documentary we've been talking about "an american bombing". we're back with katie couric and marc levin. katie, the families. >> the families are remacable. remarkable. this is one story i didn't cover and forget about. i covered the actual event for days because they spent so much time trying to get people out of the rubble, and then i went back for the one-year anniversary. i went back when the memorial opened. i went back and talked to family members the day timothy mcveigh was executed, so i felt really invested in this story and really close to many of the people in oklahoma city who had endured this tragedy, people like kathy sanders. that's her son daniel there who lost her two grandsons, chase and colton, and the home movies

of them, they're absolutely heartbreaking, and people like bud welch who ended up befriending timothy mcveigh's father and forgiving him. he lost his daughter in the bombing, and basically speaking out against the death penalty, and you know, there were just so many families, also marsha kite who became a victim's right advocate and fought for the opportunity for families to be able to make statements in the courtroom. it was just incredible, and i've been able to spend time, we had a screening at the university of oklahoma and to be able to be with many of those family members and to see mike

because he was

the part we want to bring to a wider audience is he was nurtured, inspired by and even celebrated by a movement, a movement that for a while we thought was going underground but has reemergeds in waves. they say, we need to tell this story now because of what is happening now. >> what's remarkable, when you think about it, nicole, this was pre-social media. timothy mcveigh was radicalized and helped spread the word at gun shows and other gatherings of these extremist movement organizations and now think about how easy it is to get people together and plan this. this is something that is top of mind for many officials as we feel like we're in a real powder

keg in this country and these movements have only grown. they haven't -- you know, they haven't shrunk at all since oklahoma city. >> i think that's the boot tomorrow line. what we saw as fringe extreme, horrible, much of it has gone mainstream, the ideology. the ideas. >> that's something bill clinto said. >> the hate speech. just movie out now, "civil war," this is all mainstream. it's truly frightening. >> the toolsru we have to monit and gather intelligence on domestic threats are far less than what we have to monitor foreign threats. we see law enforcement struggling with, you know -- >> i think -- look, i think it's incredibly difficult. i've had the -- you know, in doing this, you know, working

with different law enforcement trying to get ahead of the cushion this. especially what you mentioned earlier, this idea of leaderless resistance, this is something that emerged, which is that you kind of seed the actions. you encourage them and yet the leaders are not culpable. >> we see this happening a the the synagogue, acts happening by quote, unquote, lone wolves inspired by -- >> ideations. >> and celebrated. there are people that look to mcvay as a marker, which is hard to believe. >> we will watch it. we'd love to call on you again as we cover this. as we try to do what you've done, keep these families and this tragedy front of mind as we muddle through. thank you so much for being here. thank you so much for being here. hotr grandma.

congratulations on your first grand baby. the new documentary, hbo documentary is called "an american bombing, the road to april 19th." it is as we've been discussing a must-see. quick break for us. we'll be right back. must-see quick break for us we'll be right back.

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trump's name or trump's image or trump's likeness. according to a memo from nbc news. trump's co-campaign managers require a split of 5% of all fundraising solicitations. this, quote, any split that is higher than 5% will be seen favorably by the rnc and president trump's campaign and is routinely reported to the highest levels of leadership within both organizations. politico was first to report on the memo. president biden's campaign said it has raised over $190 million. that's much more -- that's twice as much as what trump has brought in so far. another break for us. we'll be right back. we'll be right back. ♪ that colonoscopy for getting screened ♪ ♪ is why i'm delaying ♪ ♪ i heard i had a choice ♪

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thank you so much for letting us into your homes during these extraordinary times. we are grateful. the beat with ari melber starts right now. hi, ari. >> welcome, nicole. this is a significant w