are fact checking. so many of the things, erroneous ideas that are floating around, they have created a twitter account to fact check what is going on on campus and what is not going on on campus. >> i have relied heavily on great journalism being done by folks from columbia. negotiations continue. we will see what comes from it. we are seeing scenes across the country. jelani cobb, thank you very much. appreciate it. >> thank you. >> that is "all in" for this week. "alex wagner tonight" starts now. good evening, alex. >> has it really only been one week? it feels like maybe two weeks, this week. >> this week? i don't know where i am or what day it is. >> it is the fourth or fifth of december. >> opening arguments this week. i was like, this week. >> you made it, flying colors.

have a good weekend. today was day four, day four of testimony in the first criminal trial of a former president. trump's lawyers were able to finish cross-examining the lead witness, tabloid publisher and trump insider david pecker. we will talk about how that went in just a second, but today we got to see the prosecution second witness. someone who worked closely with donald trump for decades, including on tv. >> hi, good morning, this is mr. trump's office. >> hi, good morning. mr. trump would like to meet you at 9:00 at tavern on the green. >> good morning, it is rhona calling. mr. trump is meeting with miss universe at trump model management. do you think you'll be ready? >> we can do it.

thanks, rhona. >> thanks, rhona. rhona graff, donald trump's longtime executive assistant and occasional costar on the apprentice. the prosecution appears to have called her because she is the person who handled trump's calendar and contacts and email, which trump himself does not use. ms. graf appeared in court under subpoena and testified her legal bills were being paid for by the trump organization, even though she does not work there anymore. so while rhona graff was not a hostile witness, it is a safe bet she didn't really want to be there. the prosecution used her testimony to establish donald trump had contact information for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, the two women with whom trump is alleged to have covered up affairs and today they were able to show exhibits. trump's old microsoft contacts list, showing injuries --

showing injuries for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, complete with phone numbers. when trump's lawyers get the chance to cross-examine rhona graff, they really didn't rebut what the prosecution had established, which was that donald trump was in contact with stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. instead the defense was quick to offer multiple reasons as to why trump might have been in contact with the two women. reasons, by the way, that have nothing to do with having an affair. for example they ask of trumpet been considering stormy daniels as a potential contestant on the celebrity apprentice, to which graff replied, it was part of the office chatter. it is worth remembering, donald trump is not on trial for cheating on his wife. trump's lawyers do not have to convince the jury that trump was just friends or whatever with stormy daniels and karen mcdougal because having an affair with an adult film actress or playboy model is not illegal. but donald trump himself still publicly denies that those

affairs took place, even though a majority of voters are not buying it and have not been buying it for years. since trump is a famously difficult client to demand since lawyers defend whatever he says, those lawyers spent time in court today trying to convince everyone that these affairs did not happen. it kind of gets at the bigger picture, which is that trump attorneys seem to have a complicated task in front of them to manage their client and to mount a credible defense of the narrative from prosecutors and so far the strategy has not been panning out. during the cross-examination of david pecker today, trump's lawyers try to undermine the prosecution's star witness. they called into question his memory. they suggested that tabloid had its own business reasons for publishing negative stories about trump opponents and burying stories about alleged affairs, but all of that was

undercut by the prosecution as soon as the prosecution had a chance to go back at mr. pecker. here is one of david final moments when he was questioned by the prosecution about why he bought and killed playboy playmate karen mcdougal story about her affair with trump. prosecutor, have you published a story about a playboy model having a year-long sexual affair while he was married with a presidential candidate, with that of sold magazines, do you think? >> yes. that would be like national enquirer gold. at the time you enter that agreement you had zero intention of publishing that story? pecker, that's correct. stein glass, and despite the fact that publishing that story would've helped your bottom line, you killed the story because it helped the candidate, donald trump. pecker, yes. pretty damaging testimony.

the defense team tried to poke holes in it by suggesting that the national enquirer killed the mcdougal story not to help donald trump, but to help karen mcdougal. defense attorney emil bove. and you were very clear on cross-examination that ms. mcdougal did not want to publish that story, right? that is correct. bove, she wanted to promote her name and brand, correct? yes. she, karen mcdougal was illegitimate celebrity at that time, right? pecker, let me say this. did she meet the celebrity category at that time? no. there were reportedly audible chuckles in the courtroom after that happened. it was not what you would call a highlight moment for the defense. in fact, to be honest from my perspective almost none of it so far has seen all that great for donald trump. maybe you don't need a

compelling narrative when the job is to get jurors to believe in reasonable doubt or maybe this is what is happening when you work with an impossible client and do a better job. what does a competent defense strategy look like in this trial? is it turns out, joining me now is andrew wiseman, and anna bello, a pleasure to have you both onset. first of all, i am totally honest about all of this. i will just say, andrew, from what i have seen, i think anybody who is even casually watching this understands the story the prosecution is trying to tell. it seems like a scattershot series of defense maneuvers on the other side, though, and i wonder from your perspective whether the asymmetry matters. >> it does. when people say when they look at trials, you are looking for who has the better, compelling

narrative. i don't mean that to denigrate defense counsel. they have an important job and sometimes there is not a compelling narrative and you are stuck with laying out a sort of variety, like a box of chocolates. the memory is bad. if you don't think the memory is bad, he is a liar. >> or karen mcdougal is the one that you want to catch and kill for. >> it didn't really matter because you would've done this anyway. sometimes you are also very theatrical, so it is a style and you say, look over here. so you distract. but that is where someone like steinglass is such an experienced trial lawyer. he lives and breathes trials. he knows exactly what he will do on redirect and a good prosecutor gets the jury back to, let's focus on key things and come up with what is the best question to ask to get to the point? it is actually very similar to what you do, which is in a short amount of time how do we

try to focus this national enquirer gold. it is something that you are going to hear. sometimes you consider certain answers within jury lines and that is something you'll hear again. there is no sense that you would not publish the story, but for having this agreement. that narrative is one that if you are the defense, you kind of need to lean into that and say whatever happened here, maybe stormy daniels is different. to be credible i think it is better to pick your battles. >> you mentioned offhandedly and it sounds like it didn't resonate, the attempt to undermine credibility. you were in the overflow room. for all of us not seeing this, it is hard to know how something lands. can you talk more about that attempt on the part of the defense? >> there were a lot of efforts

today to undermine credibility by looking at prior inconsistent statements he has allegedly made, but they really did not land because many of these so-called inconsistencies were very marginal and immaterial. they were things that can be explained by the context. at one point defense counsel tried to say in this fbi report in which the fbi had notes, they wrote that you said one thing, but then you said at trial yesterday that you said another thing. and you know, david pecker really pushed back on that on the stand and said, you know, i am not responsible for what the fbi wrote in the notes. i did not say that and i know what i said, i know what happened and it is the truth. it really was just another moment in addition to the moments that you mentioned with the celebrity kind of comment where he pushed back on that,

too, where things just weren't landing for defense counsel. also the cross-examination went on extremely long. it is the kind of thing where jurors, from what i have seen this week in court, i was in the overflow today but i have been in court watching the jurors. they have all been very attentive, but the way things are going today, it is the kind of thing that a juror who is in for a long trial does not appreciate this focus on minor immaterial inconsistencies. >> you lose them. >> exactly. >> just pecker as a witness, we talked about how central michael cohen is to all of this, but because david pecker is involved in all of this. talking to michael cohen and donald trump about this. a very strong witness on the outside, it seems, on the stand. i wonder how much he is really undergirded a very strong argument in advance of michael

cohen's testimony. >> there are a couple of things that are great about him. first you get the real sense that it is principal and principal. david pecker, donald trump. michael cohen is a staffer to use nicolle wallace's term. he is not a principal in this. you have the national enquirer and you have donald trump, they are making the decisions. that is important and he tells you how it began, how it was carried out and how it ended. he also gives you why it is a felony and why you should care. what i mean by why it is a felony, remember this would be a misdemeanor if it is not to conceal or further some other crime and he tells you it is election fraud. >> full on. >> up one side and down the other. so the only piece that is really missing is sort of the false business records. so the piece that you still

need, obviously there are false business records, but you need to have knowledge that donald trump knew that would have to be part of the scheme. that shouldn't be that hard, because if you're trying to keep this secret and david pecker already said he wanted to keep it secret even within the national enquirer. why? because it is a crime. so you are not going to want to have a whole bunch of records thing this is the scheme. >> the bribing receipt. >> exactly. >> what is also so interesting as we are talking about rhona graff. we played the early apprentice tape. this is like donald trump sidekick on the apprentice and david pecker says he is still friends with donald trump. i wonder if from the jury's perspective, how meaningful is it that two of his friends are taking the stand to offer not supportive evidence against him and also on his wife's birthday, the wife for whom he is lying and creating elaborate

scenarios, she's not there. none of the family has been in the courtroom. >> i think this is a great point and it is one of the things that made testimony so powerful over the past week. of course the defense counsel has indicated they are going to attack the credibility of michael cohen and stormy daniels and portray them as people who are biased and out to get trump, but with david pecker, one of the last things he testified to under act is actually he has very warm feelings for donald trump. he called him a mentor figure who helped him in his career. you can tell he had real affection for him. this is a guy who is basically a kind of key witness in setting up the scene and giving you the world of this scheme of hush money payments and yet he is still telling you i don't harbor any ill feelings toward donald trump. i am just here to tell the truth. that is what i think made him

such a powerful starting witness. >> with friends like these, andrew, who needs enemies? it does bring me to the gag order, which we have not had a decision on. i think the next hearing will be on may 2, which surprises everybody i've talked to. is there a strategy behind this on the part of the judge or is he just taking his time? >> you have to remember he may be thinking this is a sword of damocles over donald trump. >> is it, though? he is still saying things. >> he is, so you wonder how much. i do think he has a number of things he can do in addition to finding him. he can put them in jail, but no one thinks that would be the first step. one of the things i've been advocating in addition to finding that he committed contempt is with respect to texting and truth social, he can turn to as defense lawyer

and say you are in charge now. all of those things have to run through you. essentially put a monitor in place, because that is the harm. the harm is that he is saying this stuff and essentially you have a babysitter now and that is what is going to happen. another idea is that he finds contempt and says i want you to know i am going to sentence you after the trial and i'm going to see what happens between now and then and also -- >> talk about a sword of damocles. >> right and then ryan goodman's idea is i want you to know not only can i consider this in connection with contempt, but if convicted i can consider all of this behavior when i sentence you. so these are all things you can do to try to basically have have not harm the jurors and

the witnesses. >> this is far more creative than anything i heard recently, andrew weissmann. it is a team effort. it takes a village to come up with the most punitive possibilities. andrew weissmann, anna bower, it is great to have you. thank you for your wisdom and reporting on all of this. i appreciate you on this friday night. we have a lot more to get to this evening including the moment eight years ago when donald trump argued he could stand in the middle of fifth avenue and shoot somebody without consequences. that argument is back, this time before the supreme court, and donald trump might be right. first i talked to pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter ronan farrow about what the surprising decision to overturn harvey weinstein's decision in new york might portend for trump's hush money trial in the same city. that is next. le over 50. it's lying dormant, waiting... and could reactivate.

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this is eight days that we

have all been sitting in this courthouse. it is in order to try to win an election and nothing like this has ever happened. eight days. >> today in new york county court, former president donald trump stood for day eight of his hush money trial. while we have focused a lot on the charges related to those clandestine sexual encounters, the day before a different new york court upended a different case related to a well-known serial sex offender. that decision was made at the new york state court of appeals, where yesterday former movie producer harvey weinstein had his 2020 conviction for sexual assault, the landmark case of the me too movement, overturned. the appeals court concluded that the original trial allowed women who were not part of the case to testify for allegations for which weinstein was not on

trial. that ruling has reopened a chapter in america's battle against sexual misconduct and it might have also opened a window of opportunity for donald trump and his current hush money case. prosecutors are also using allegations trump is not charged for. allegations made by a woman, former playboy model karen mcdougal, who is not part of the criminal case itself. joining me now is ronan farrow, pulitzer prize-winning investigative reporter and contributor to the new yorker. also the author of catch and kill, lies, spies, and the conspiracy to protect predators. it's been a minute. it's great to see you. >> it's a pleasure, alex, always. >> you have a piece in the new yorker that gets at this strange contradiction, but let's unpack it first. what is happening in the weinstein case that for years after this conviction in an appeals court, certain testimony is deemed not admissible and the conviction

is overturned? >> part of the reaction is from an activist and point, from the standpoint of the survivors who testified in this case and were affected by the alleged misconduct, there is anguish here. there is a lot of concern about what it offers for the future of sex crimes prosecutions, particularly in new york. from a legal standpoint close spectators of this case i think are less surprised. this was always a case that had this vulnerability where prosecutors were skirting a little bit on the edge of what was allowed under the new york rules of evidence. particularly this case law where there is a rule that by and large you cannot let an evidence of uncharged acts. >> it is a little bit gray, though, too, right? does past behavior suggest current, present, or future behavior? >> it is a little gray and it is very. the general principle is there, but there are exceptions. in a lot of jurisdictions there

are exemptions for sex crimes. it goes to motive and intent. you can let in propensity evidence that says they raped before, so they might again. that is true in california were harvey weinstein faces another verdict and still has to serve 16 years. in new york you can't let in propensity evidence. has to fall in these narrow categories where they say in the trump case for instance, we are showing you evidence because it establishes a conspiracy or it shows intent or the people involved. something more directly linked. >> it seems so subjective. you know more about the weinstein case and the witnesses whose testimony they are saying should not have happened. when it comes to the trump trial, do you think a reasonable inference would be that karen mcdougal's testimony should be disqualified? or has judge merchan operated

with enough caution that this won't be overturned? >> i think very much the latter. the overturning of the weinstein verdict will make every prosecutor in new york cautious, as they always should be, but especially right now about how fraught it is to let in this evidence. there are witnesses named after these rules and exceptions in new york. in the trump case, judge merchan has made a big show of careful jurisprudence. he has excluded certain things the prosecution has asked to let in and in cases where he has led evidence of acts not charged into the courtroom, specifically the ami transactions, right? he has said this is very directly necessary to establish conspiracy, shared intent. you really can't fully understand what was happening with michael cohen paying off stormy daniels without understanding the trump tower meeting and the transaction to the doorman and the transaction

to kill karen mcdougal's account of the affair. it all ties together. >> so it is a smaller net that they cast, if you will, that directly touches -- >> on its face it is a much more reasonable letting enough that outside information. >> i've got to say, though, ronan, that given the magnitude of the weinstein conviction and to have it overturned and now it falls on the shoulders of d.a. bragg day >> to decide to retry the case. he has not formally said he is going to, but he has released a statement saying he will do everything in his power to do so, which will make him a very busy man with a very busy office. >> was going to say he was not in office at that point. for everyone wondering does this mean harvey weinstein is free, no, he will be sent back to california where he will face time for those convictions. >> he may get sent to rikers, for instance.

if they decide to retry him in new york. ultimately he still has to serve a 16 year sentence for a guilty verdict in california and that verdict, i've been in touch with the d.a.s office in l.a. county, they are more confident about. california is one of the states where you can let in, as we discussed, propensity evidence more easily. >> do you think, setting aside the legal aspects, how do you see all of this as it pertains to the picture of accountability for sexual predators? there is donald trump on trial for hush money. there is the e. jean carroll decision. there have been a number of ways in which it seems that someone with a complicated past and unsavory past as far as sexual assault is being held accountable, but then there is the weinstein thing where it is really saying this that these women should not have spoken and for survivors i imagine that is difficult to swallow four years after that point in history. >> both of these cases laid

bare the ways powerful people with a lot of money can manipulate the system. one of the links between trump and weinstein as they were both using the national enquirer and its parent company to manipulate things. to dig up dirt on opponents. tied things they wanted hidden. in terms of the future of sex crimes prosecutions, i think there is a lot of merit to this overturning of weinstein's new york verdict. there is a dissenting opinion that argues, hey, we need to be able to let in that kind of propensity evidence to summon -- to some extent. it does go to intent with sex crimes which very often fit a pattern and you need to establish if someone is being trafficked or someone is being assaulted and you see other evidence of the alleged assailant doing the same thing again, that is relevant. they are not just isolated he said, she said cases. so i think there is valid cause for activists around this to be

concerned. >> it would seem that maybe new york should mirror what the federal government has in terms of what is allowed in. >> maybe this will start discourse on it. >> ronan farrow, great to see you. thanks for your time. insanely good reporting. >> busy week. still ahead tonight, the supreme court. is the high court ready and willing to pick trumpism over democracy? coming up next. (♪♪) (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints. i'm adding downy unstopables to my wash. now i'll be smelling fresh all day long.

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if there was any hope that donald trump's argument of absolute immunity would get a smack down from the supreme court, that basically evaporated yesterday. trump's defense argued that a president who calls for the assassination of his rivals or sells nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary may be considered acting officially and therefore immune from prosecution. even a president who orders a coup could be immune from prosecution. the court's conservative justices heard the defense and the bunkers hypotheticals and not only entertained them, they appeared to embrace them. in his piece for the atlantic, the trumpification of the supreme court, he writes trump's legal argument is a path to dictatorship.

that is not an exaggeration. the conservative justices have seen harbingers of tyranny and union organizing, civil rights laws and universal healthcare plans. when confronted with a legal theory that establishes actual tyranny, they were simply intrigued. as long as donald trump is the standardbearer for the republicans, every institution they control will comport itself in his image in an effort to protect him. joining me now is leah litman, professor at the university of michigan school of law and one of the cohosts of the great podcast, strict scrutiny. thanks for being here tonight. i thought it was a very powerful idea insofar as the court has responded so strongly to tyrannical claims of liberal overreach on a number of issues, but when presented with actual tyrannical plans by a conservative, demure word from taking it out. what you make of the argument

he outlines there? >> i think he is exactly right and really onto something. and some of the earlier cases where president joe biden's executive policies were challenged, you had for example justice kavanaugh trying to equate the forgiveness of student debt with president fdr's interment of japanese- american citizens during world war ii, suggesting that was a gross abuse of executive power and executive overage. another challenge is, trump appointed judges likening student debt relief to the laws that enabled the rise of hitler. all of a sudden when donald trump gets to the supreme court and argues that he can attempt to overthrow the government and not face any accountability for doing so, then they are willing to do this and debate this like it is a normal legal question and entertainment and therefore allow donald trump to potentially delay any consequences, again, for his efforts to effectively overturn the results of a valid

presidential election. >> i also thought that the way that they entertained it was really weird. it was almost like every time the details of the plot were brought up, they wanted to put on, effectively, blinders, and say we were not here to talk about that. we are here to talk about what this portends for future administrations. what do you think the reasoning behind that behavior was? >> you know, it is difficult to know but you are right that justices alito, gorsuch, as well as justice kavanaugh relentlessly insisted on not discussing the actual facts of this case because the actual facts of this case involve an attempt to interfere with the peaceful transition of power. instead they hypothesized random future presidents who might attempt to refuse to leave office in order to avoid the risk of criminal prosecution, even though they were faced, right now in this very case, with a former president to attempted to refuse to leave office and is

now trying to escape the risk of criminal liability for doing so. i think it was their effort to distract from the facts of this case. the fact that the events leading up to and including january 6 are a very real threat to our democracy and rule of law and instead they attempted to distract this case away from the facts, so they could distract us from the very real issues facing our democracy. >> or maybe the horror of what happened was too much for them to actually entertain and rulon. i do wonder at the end of the day if they remand this back to district court and becomes part of a secondary proceeding -- what in the end is the point of taking up, why did the supreme court take this case up. the scuttlebutt was that they will reject these presidential immunity claims, but they want to be on record because this is historic. if they are not rejecting the claims and just sending it back

down, why take it up other than to shake americans confidence in the integrity of the court? >> i think the reason to take it up is to potentially delay the proceedings and laity trial until after the election and deprive the american public the opportunity to send the question about whether donald trump violated laws including the insurrection at the capital and whether that violated criminal law. they might end up rejecting trump's most expensive notions of immunity and instead use this case to adopt some unclear legal standard that they are going to leave to the lower courts to apply and suggest that maybe, perhaps some of the entities involved again in this attempt to interfere with the peaceful transition of power, maybe those are official acts that are entitled to immunity. >> what you are saying, i absolutely understand italy that could potentially get trump off of any accountability, that that would be an effect of this, but you

are suggesting something really pernicious, which is that the delay is intentional. that that is something in the minds of thomas, alito, and others. do you think that is how far this court has been adulterated? that we can say conservatives are not only considering politics here, they are behaving in an expressly political way for the gain of one party. >> i don't think we can rule out that possibility. if you compare the court treatment of the trump immunity case to previous cases, it looks like they are doing things differently here and in ways that advantage donald trump. in the disqualification case, for example, they decided to hear that case quickly and schedule oral arguments immediately and ensure a decision before the primary election. here, by contrast, they decided to take the case and schedule it for argument almost two months after they decided to hear it and it does not look like they're going to act in a similarly expeditious way, when

acting in an expeditious way is contrary to donald trump's interest. compare the immunity case to the case they heard before, which was the emergency medical abortion case. in that case the supreme court elected to take the case before the court of appeals ever weighed in on it, but they declined to do so in the trump immunity case. again, creating an additional delay and that delay has the potential to allow trump to run out the clock and prevent any trial before the election. so it does look like they are doing different things in this case than they have in other cases, all of which happens to benefit donald trump's attempt to regain power. >> wow, just a staggering corruption of justice. leah litman, it's so great to have you on the show. thanks for being here tonight. >> thank you. coming up, the biden white house has been doing a bunch of things really, really, really right. we are going to tell you about some of the big ones, coming up

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give them the opportunity to accommodate me. >> if you have flown on an airplane in the united states, you are likely well aware of how frustrating an experience it can be and i'm not even talking about the legroom or the small square pretzels nobody likes. this week the biden administration did something to address a very real problem when it comes to airlines. >> we are coming out with a new rule that defines and lifts the standard for people getting their money back from airlines when the airline lets them down. one thing that is especially important about this is that you won't automatically get a refund when you are entitled to one. >> that was secretary pete buttigieg announcing a new rule this week that when it takes effect in six months will mean if your flight is canceled you will just get your money back. if you paid for wi-fi and it didn't work, you just get your money back. no vouchers, no talking to 1 million customer service representatives, no nonsense.

this week, while the world watched donald trump sit on trial in his criminal hush money case in new york and listened to trump's lawyers argued before the supreme court the president should be allowed to assassinate their rivals, while that was happening the biden white house was quietly rolling out major policies that will have a real impact on american lives. on tuesday, biden's federal trade commission announced a new rule bending noncompete agreements. those are agreements that bar employees from working for competing businesses. when you hear the words, noncompete, you probably imagine executives or scientists working on confidential, proprietary stuff. according to the ftc, 30 million american workers are bound by non-competes. businesses essentially started using them to keep wages low. in the fast food industry researchers estimate that one in six food prep workers have signed a noncompete, meaning

you could be a fry cook making minimum wage at one burger place and be barred from applying to a job at the competing burger chain that opens across the street. but when this rule takes effect in three months, that will no longer be the case. then there is biden's department of labor. this week the department of labor finalized a rule that will make millions more americans qualify to receive overtime pay. the old rules meant if you make more than $35,568 a year you no longer qualify for overtime. thanks to this new rule, starting on july 1, which is around the corner, that threshold gets bumped up to more than $43,000 per year. on january 1 it gets bumped up again to more than $58,000 a year. that is going to mean a real race for millions of american workers. yesterday biden's federal communications commission voted to reinstate net neutrality.

regulations that ensure companies like spectrum and verizon can't use their power as internet providers to do uncompetitive things like slowdown netflix, while keeping hbo streaming smoothly. the biden administration did all of these things just this week. it's been a busy week and joining me now to discuss what all of that means for americans and for the next presidential election, coming up. try killing bugs the worry-free way. not the other way. zevo traps use light to attract and trap flying insects with no odor and no mess. they work continuously, so you don't have to. zevo. people-friendly. bug-deadly. [music “this little light of mine”] in the world's poorest places, children with cleft conditions live in darkness and shame. people-friendly.

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see why comcast business powers more small businesses than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. can i tell you a fantasy i had? i don't know if you're going to debate her opponent. >> i am happy to debate him. >> today in a surprise interview with howard stern, president joe biden said he would go to the mat and debate his opponent, the presumptive republican nominee donald trump. they will have a lot to

discuss. joining me now is the founder and executive director of more perfect union and advisor to senator sanders and former advisor to his 2020 run. there is no person i want to talk to about all this stuff more than you. >> happy friday night, alex. >> thank you, you two. the first thing is what the biden administration has done this week in terms of, you know, just policies that are going to directly affect millions of americans. net neutrality, noncompete clauses being banned, new rules on airline refunds and junk fees. what stands out to you as particularly noteworthy and impactful? >> i think we need to pull people back and say what bonds these things together? what are the values undergirding this? what biden is doing is transformational, but why is it transformational? here's the problem, he saw that the economy is rigged. he says too much wealth, power,

and privilege has dictated the choices in our economy. it has led to too much exploitation, too much cheating by powerful actors. what is the solution? more democracy, more economic democracy. that takes a couple of forms. workplace democracy, so i want more people organizing. i want people free from non- competes. i want people to be able to if they want to stay in the towns they live in, be able to go up there. i also want marketplace democracy. i want businesses to compete. we can bring supply chains back home. we can build more businesses here. you take those elements together, that is the massive project joe biden is engaged in right now. it is transformational. not many people are talking about it, but i'm glad that you and i are because i think it matters a of a lot to many people. >> it does matter and when you put it under the economy, i have to say that the swing state polling this week, biden's leading trump in only

one of them, the state of michigan. this is among voters who say the economy is one of their top issues. how do you explain the disconnect between what the administration is doing and how voters feel about the economy and what the priorities of this administration, when it comes to economic matters? >> these things you and i were talking about. net neutrality, noncompete rules, overtime pay. these are wildly popular if people know about them. in washington, d.c. these are discussed and you know why? because there are major special interests who hate them. the chamber of commerce, huge big businesses. they have an incredible amount of power to get their message out, so what you often hear is either a dampening affect about, the economy is not going great, because joe biden is taking this on. you hear and a lot of corners about how business covers this stuff, not the effects of how they work in real people's

lives. what that means is those of us who have a power and platform to talk to regular people need to do a good job and make sure we are explaining it to people, but there aren't many of them. the way people are consuming this is through big business and big business doesn't like this. we can't rely on the natural state of the channels of how people get information to get people the information they need. biden is left alone. he needs a lot of surrogates and people who are his allies to understand what he is doing that is transformational and to go out and talk to people about it. >> i wonder in a week like this where we have seen college campus protests over the war in gaza absolutely ignite the flames of passion and indignation. there have been cries of anti- semitism. there have been strong words about what is happening to the palestinian people. does that issue, i wonder when you talk about transformational change around the economy, does

the high-stakes of what is happening, for example in gaza, trump, pardon the metaphor, whatever biden is doing on the economy a young -- economy among young people? >> there is no question that it is a dampening affect. obviously the president on this issue has to show policy changes in order to get people excited about voting for him and supporting him. i think if you get $20 million as congress approved for joe biden to give to israel, i hope you would hold that and condition it and say you don't just get money until you change behavior. there has to be accountability by netanyahu and a government that kills 34,000 people. i think the freedom that i see on campuses, that freedom of speech, connects by the way to some of the things we are talking about. it is a movement in this country advocating for democracy in a lot of ways, including on campuses. i see this as connected, but

you are