seem overwhelming or too big to fix. so much so that small acts of courage, a legacy and a fight for democracy is the title of my new book it comes out on may 7th. i will discuss it and i would love to meet you in those cities. it kicks off with my lunch in philadelphia on may 7th. baltimore on may 9th. more demands after that. i will keep you posted of all of it on social media. i am on x, instagram, threads, and even mastodon. hope to see you there. that does it for me. inside begins now. now. donald trump watch key witnesses testify in one courtroom while lawyers made his bunkers case for presidential immunity in

another. we will tell you everything you need to know about what comes next. and joe biden is working to get under his skin, and it seems to be working. i will ask ron what he thinks about that strategy. plus i will talk to john favreau and john lovett, with god save america. [ music ] it's safe to say there was a lot of legal news this week. in a courtroom in downtown manhattan, there were hours of testimony about donald trump and the national inquirer and how they tried to kill chances for stories. trump's lawyers were making an argument that killing your political rival would be completely fine for a president. that was the argument.

it has been a lot to take in. what happens this week matters, it should matter to all of us. it's important to talk about why , especially in these moments where it feels like we are all drinking from a news firehose. we are going to start on thursday, at the supreme court. when you listen to these arguments, you may have thought you can't possibly be serious. >> if the president decides that his rival is a corrupt person, and he orders the military or order someone to assassinate him, is that within his official acts for which you can get immunity?>> it would depend on the hypothetical, we could see that be an official act. >> you heard that after correctly, he said it could be an official act.

that's right, if they feel their opponent is corrupt, they can take care of that by killing them. but wait, that's more. at one point, justice kagan asked if a resident could sell nuclear secrets to a foreign adversary. what did trump's lawyers say? isil yep. could he get away with in a coup? maybe. if the president does it, kills, if he felt national security secrets, it's not illegal. it may have sounded like the justices were preparing for this hearing by coming up with the craziest possible scenarios, whatever shocking thing trump's lawyer would say in response wouldn't really matter, because it's not something that would actually happen here. but the thing is, none of this

is much of a hypothetical when it comes to donald trump. in 2020 he was reportedly involved in efforts to directly defend a secretary seizing voting machines. that's on a coup. and he mused about executing mark millie. a staffer who leaked a story about him he said should be executed too. former attorney general bill barr said he used to say that sort of thing all the time. so when it comes to donald trump, no, those hypotheticals that got tossed around the supreme court this week are not hypotheticals, are they? these are clearly still rattling around in his head, these are things's lawyers are saying should be okay for the president to do. here's the other really important thing to understand about all of this. the view of the presidency that donald trump has, this absolute power above the law mind-set is literally his plan for his

second turn. the far right think tank the heritage foundation is drafting plans to convert his calls for revenge and lawlessness into action. it's called project 2025, it's nearly 1000 pages long, is online, you can read it if you like. let me give you a cliff notes version. the goal is to assemble an army of aligned, vetted, trained and prepared conservatives to to work on day one to deconstruct the administrative state. one big area of attack, the justice department. which project 2025 says has lost its way, and to find its way back, it must become subservient to the white house. in plain english, that basically means they want to remake the structure and staffing of the justice department so an independent branch of government looks the other way, while trump

basically does whatever the heck he wants. as the new york times put it, according to the project 2025 plan, the law must submit to the president priorities, if not, the lawyers are doing it wrong. oral arguments aren't exactly appointment television all the time, they are confusing and long-winded at times, but they matter, clearly in the context of the specific case, but also because the responses tell a lot about how he sees the power of the presidency, and of how he looks at a second term. andrew is a former general counsel at the fbi, lisa rubin is an embassy in b.c. legal correspondent. this is like a trove of legal brains here. you've argued more cases in front of the supreme court, you were in the court on thursday. what was the biggest take away

>> most of the time when you walk out of the supreme court, you know what's going to happen. that was not true here, it was very hard to predict where the justices were lined up. this should have been an easy case. as you said at the top of the show, trump's lawyers are making bunkers arguments. and he was very erudite and collegial. if you weren't in the courtroom, it sounded like a scholarly disquisition and not persuasion. in the courtroom, i think a lot of points did land with the justices, and i think the most chilling point came at 11:55 a.m., almost two hours after the argument, he had been talking for more than an hour, he described the justices

something that you are saying, this is not hypothetical, this is what the indictment says donald trump did to the justice department, pressuring the justice department to try to send letters to state legislatures, saying this election fraud and the like, then threatening to fire those staffers when they refuse to do that, and the justices did really perk up. i saw four justices, really rejecting this absolute immunity claim. where it was the chief justice on this? playing his cards close to the vest.>> did anything surprise you? >> it's important to remember that at the outset, the court had already given donald trump the wind that he was seeking, the delay of the d.c. trial. going into this, it was all

upside for him. he had to be thinking i'm making an outlandish argent argument with ramifications that couldn't possibly be squared within the text and history, and the constitution, or the history of the presidency. it's all upside if the court would actually bite on this, so what was surprising is that there were justices who were actually taking this seriously, it's frankly shocking, going into this, the given was that private conduct was certainly not immunized from criminal liability, and what everyone's talking about now, maybe they will think some of this is private, and they can go forward, that was what was a given going into this, and the reason people are thinking that, there seems to be justices that were really

taking donald trump's claim of criminal immunity seriously, and i know it sounds like hyperbole, but i think your opening is so correct, we are essentially one vote away from the end of democracy as we know it, with checks and balances, to say it's an imperial presidency that would be created, it's frankly saying it would be a king, he would be criminally immune. that is what is so shocking, how close we are, and we are really on the razors edge of that kind of result, but for the chief justice.>> one vote away, when you put it in those terms, it is very, very stark. amy coney barrett had a line of questioning that jumped out to me, i'm not a lawyer, but she was basically handing the distinction down between official and private, did that stick out to you? what was she trying to get at,

in your assessment? >> i think she's trying to get at the fact that indictment mostly alleges a number of things that are private acts, despite the characterization of john sauer, they are anything but official, at one point the president advanced a defense on the basis of the first amendment, and those things can't coexist, you can't say on one hand that he's been charged with primarily official accent on the other hand one first amendment reduction, because that would not apply for the president but in the fact he's acting in a personal or campaign capacity. amy coney barrett trying to suss out and pin down john sauer with respect to the actual allegations in this indictment were both helpful and surprising, nobody had her on the bingo card as the swing vote here.>> i certainly didn't, it sounds like most of

you didn't either. i'm going to play a moment from justice alito.>> if an incumbent loses a very close, hotly contested election and knows a real possibility after leaving office is not that the president is going to be able to go off into a peaceful retirement, but the president will be criminally prosecuted by a bitter political opponent, will that not lead us into a cycle that destabilizes the functioning of our country as a duck democracy and he seems to be arguing in plain english that immunity is necessary, because otherwise presidents will feel fear prosecution and be incentivized to hold onto power unlawfully. would you make of that

statement?>> i thought it missed two really important things, one, the over 200 year history of this country in which that's and literally never happened even though we've always thought that presidents were subject to criminal liability, and second, it ignored the powerful remarks made january 2021, when a lawyer went to the congress and said do not impeach president trump, instead, you can indict him after he leaves office, that person was donald trump's own lawyer. trump, in the impeachment, was saying i can't be impeached, i can only be indicted, now that he left office, he saying i can be indicted and i can be impeached. this is all a recipe to put him above the law. >> he said a lot of things that come back to bite. neil, thank you so much for your time and incredible supreme court expertise. andrew, lisa, steve right where

you are. lisa was in the courtroom, andrew has thoughts as always, we will be back after this. [ music ] ] call or click today. get your free gutter inspection on your schedule and get leaffilter installed in as little as a few hours. you'll never have to clean out your gutters again, guaranteed. get leaf filter today. call 833 leaffilter or go to leaffilter.com as easy as 1, 2, 3 ava: i was just feeling sick. and it was the worst day. mom was crying. i was sad. colton: i was diagnosed with rhabdomyosarcoma. brett: once we got the first initial hit, it was just straight tears, sickness in your stomach, just don't want to get up out of bed. joe: there's always that saying, well,

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okay, that's uncalled for. in donald trump's criminal trial, we heard the defense team argued he was trying to suppress negative stories about himself or personal reasons, that the catch and kill scheme he hooked up with the national enquirer and david pecker was completely unrelated to the 2016 campaign. trumps attorney went out of his way to point out that trump is a husband, and a father, and claimed that the whole scheme is simply intended to protect trumps family. david pecker testified to the contrary, saying that the purpose was really for the campaign, in fact he said trumps family was never even

mentioned, not by michael cohen or even by trump himself in their conversations. in the case of karen mcdougal, he confirmed that they suppressed her story to influence the election. and lots of details were revealed, but more importantly, he made clear he was aware that they were not only doing something unethical, but illegal. when asked point blank whether he knew that paying to kill stories on behalf of the presidential candidate was against the law, he said yes. lisa, so much legal news for both of you. thank you for being here. david pecker was first for a reason. you have both been part of the strategy. how did he lay the groundwork for the prosecutor's case as we look to the next stage? >> really only. that will have a lot to do with

the homework that the manhattan d.a.s office stated. remember, this case is not so much about the hush money scheme as it is about falsification of business records, 34 counts of it. what makes it felony is that it was done with the intent of concealing or committing another crime. what david pecker did was establish that other crime, namely a conspiracy to promote or prevent the election of a particular person through unlawful means, where one or more acts were taken in that direction. he laid all that groundwork, the formation of the conspiracy, the unlawful means, the karen mcdougal settlement payment, and the way it was orchestrated, and thirdly, the fact that the unlawful means here was not only the agreement, but the fact that they had services in an attempt

to skirt campaign finance law, he knew paying her off to suppress the story with the goal of promoting trumps election was unlawful, so what he did was in that agreement to purchase on her story also provide that she would do columns or serve as ready carpet interviewer for one of their properties and the like. that was all a ruse that karen mcdougal took very, very seriously, that pose problems for them, because she wanted them to make good on that portion of the agreement. and really, they had done it all along to silencer. >> david testimony was so interesting. i wanted to go in reverse, and ask you about todd blanches opening statement. he made some pretty bold statements in the hearing, he basically denied trumps alleged affair with daniels. that's not part of the necessary legal argument, but does that matter?

could it come back to bite him? >> when you are on trial, prosecution or defense, you need to be extremely careful about what you promise a jury. what happens is both sides listen very carefully to that, and it will come back, if you have promised something that did not come to play, you are going to hear that. the statement that denying the tryst with stormy daniels, i'm not exactly sure how that will come into evidence. stormy daniels is clearly going to say it happens, donald trump, who everyone thinks is not going to testify, i'm sure the prosecution would love it if he did, for the same reason he never met with us in the mueller investigation, i think there's no way in god's green earth he's going to testify, i don't know how that's going to come into play. that's the kind of thing where

it may be that todd blanche felt he had to say that for his clients. he needed to say it for a sort of public concession. at trial, it's going to hurt him if he doesn't prove it, in summation, you are going to hear the state saying this is what he told you, that is not true, don't trust him. it is very, very important what people say in openings.>> one of the things we learned this week, there are text and email exchanges for all of this. some of that, we learned about this week. dylan howard sent a text to a relative saying at least if he wins, i will be pardoned for electoral fraud. the judge will allow it in evidence, but doesn't it make it really clear they knew this

was illegal?>> it absolutely makes it clear that david pecker knew it was legal, and that howard had figured it out as well. this is sort of a close call from an evidentiary perspective, most times, statement of a co-conspirator can be admitted into evidence. on the other hand, this was a statement that he didn't make it to another member of the conspiracy, but rather was making to a first-degree relative. moreover, dylan howard is not coming to this trial to testify. he lives in australia now. david pecker revealed he understands that he has some health problem that makes it untenable for him to travel. on balance, the judge decided this would be too explosive to expose the jury too, but if you read the transcript and the sidebar between the lawyers when they are talking about the text messages to that first- degree relative, there is more

of where that's coming from, a lot of other statements that indicate howard fully believed karen mcdougal was telling the truth on election night, was horrified to see what had gone down. if those statements had gone into evidence, i think it would have been one more notch in the d.a.s belt, with respect to proving up the existence of the conspiracy, and the understanding on the national enquirer's heart that this was not only wrong, but unlawful.>> go get some sleep, go spend time of your with your families, we need both of your brains this week as we are watching and trying to figure out what's happening. i appreciate you meeting with me this afternoon. coming up, my colleagues from pod save america talk about possible debates, and whether joe biden should pick up the phone and call chris christie. [ music ] c ] and it's gentle on her skin. tide free & gentle is epa safer choice certified. it's got to be tide.

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[ music ] this week we once again watched a remarkable split screen of the residential candidates.

one of them was dealing with two different cases, in two different courts, and the other was busy campaigning and being president of the united states. the contrast couldn't be more apparent.>> they are keeping me in a courtroom that's freezing, by the way, a courtroom, all day long, while he's out there.>> women with fewer rights than their mothers and young mothers had, because of donald trump. look, i don't think we are going to let him go away if it, do you?>> i was forced to be here, i'm glad i was, it was a very interesting day in a certain way, but the u.s. supreme court had a monumental hearing on immunity. >> $6.1 billion in chips funding, paired with $125 billion to build these facilities here in new york.>> wishing my wife a very happy

birthday, it would be very nice to be with her, but i'm in a courthouse for a real trial.>> and airline screws you out, now they are forced to refund you. i think that's accused - - i think that's a huge deal. >> those items that they say only cost this, it only costs that, it matters. >> joining me are co-hosts john lovett and john favreau, coauthors of a new book, democracy or else, how to save america in 10 easy steps. writing a book, doing a podcast, you guys have been very busy. >> we sure have. it's good to see you. >> hello john lovett, good to see you. let me start with that split screen. donald trump has been sitting in a courtroom all week, he's been having some crazy rants when he comes out of the courtroom, joe biden has

basically been doing presidential things, he's on the campaign trail, he's in the situation room. we don't pay close attention to this. is it going to matter? >> if you are inclined to consume political news, which unfortunately not most of the country, yes, it really matters to you, but if you are not, you probably hit up bob headlines as you scan the news. all of this is cumulative, this is an election that will be decided on the margins. six or seven months from now, as the trial continues, people will make up their minds, it will have some effect.>> does anything this far out matter? i think it is a useful thing to have joe biden be met by someone who thanks him for lowering the price of insulin and donald trump outside the courtroom calling the judge ugly. that split screen. >> quite a split screen.

is listing his various enemies outside his criminal trial, that's pretty good. >> with alban on campaigns, i don't think we would have in the message calendar six weeks in the courthouse. >> certainly not. i think watching it, it's like oh my god, this national enquirer story is insane, look at what trump is saying about the judge. joe biden is doing some compelling things. it's over. it's really not, that's what it's important to remind people of, the electorate doesn't digest things in the same way, it could matter in the long run. >> i do think the more donald trump is out there, on a courtroom, in a campaign trail, talking about his own grievances and him being the victim, that feeds into the message that biden wants to get out there, he's fighting for

the people, and trump is fighting for himself.>> this is one of the traditions of residential campaigns, it is an important moment where people do pay attention. joe biden said this week he's happy to debate trump, trump

said anywhere, anytime, anyplace, he said a lot of crazy things in that post. do you think it's a good idea for joe biden to debate? should he? >> i think he's got two. look, there's a risk, we run the obama campaign in 2012, the president in their first debate, it's always a little tricky, they are not used to debating, but i think voters expect to see both of them debate, now biden says he wants to, trump certainly wants to. trump would put on a debate every weekend and make this whole thing a spectacle. i think the normal course of a campaign is to do three debates, and that's that. >> agreed. let's talk about the states. there's pennsylvania. 150,000 votes in a close primary. that has received a lot of rejoicing. if 150,000 republicans are voting for someone who's not even running, is that good for joe biden?>> there's a lot of people who want to look at these results and try to glean some knowledge, to make them feel better about the number, at the end of the day it's a fools errand. the election will be close. does it tell you that yes, he has some weakness among republicans, of course, but that weakness is part of what allowed joe biden to win in 2020 by an incredibly narrow margin. i don't know what lesson you can take, other than yeah, there are people that you have to appeal to, to win. should you be more or less hopeful? i don't know. so we don't know what percentage of voters will vote for trump in the fall, it's a primary. we don't know what percentage of those voters were biden voters in 2020.

in pennsylvania, in 2020, 200,000 or so registered republicans voted for joe biden , 155,000 voted for nikki haley. we just don't know. it was good to see that they came out to vote to do that, but it's not seen if that was strong enough. there are republicans who have not endorsed trump were biden, i will ask you about chris christie, because you have a special connection. anyone who listens to pod save america knows this. he says joe biden has my phone number, he should call me, joe biden calls almost anyone, i'm not sure why. should they be doing more outreach? would it make a difference if chris christie and nikki haley or some of these candidates were out there saying i'm not going to support trump? >> yes, for small, i think it would make a big difference. we are in the same dynamic

we've been for a long time, does anyone partition or figure coming up for joe biden ord donald trump ultimately make the difference? probably not. does it matter that we have people like chris christie and a bunch people who were inside the trump administration and know how dangerous, chaotic, and bumbling he is, and to not just say in an atlantic article that they are concerned about trump, that they are going to write, but stand up and say this is a binary choice, for the good of the country, i am an independent and i'm getting behind joe biden, because that's what we have to do for democracy, i think that would matter, that's what people like chris christie should do.>> can you broker that call? >> i would do it to shuttle the diplomacy we need between joe biden and chris christie. thank you so much for joining us. thank you for having us. up next, my old boss ron klain is standing by to weigh in on president biden's recent

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you will never guess who is a bright and early firing off. the white house correspondents dinner was really bad,: just bombs, for good joe was an absolute disaster, doesn't get

much worse than this. none of that is true, trump knows it isn't, but it's not surprising he's salty this morning, my old boss hilariously roasted him last night.>> yes, age is an issue. i'm a grown man, running against a six-year-old. trump's speech was so embarrassing, the statute of robert e lee surrendered again. age is the only thing we have in common. my vice president actually endorses me. donnell has had a few - - donald has had tough days lately, you might call it stormy weather.>> those are the kind of things we expect to hear at the white house correspondent's dinner, but president joe biden has been doing more and more of that out on the campaign trail. he describes the dobbs decision as america.

maybe it's that bible he's trying to sell. i almost wanted to buy one to see what the 's in it. you know with covid, he said just inject a little bleach in your veins. he missed at all went to his hair. >> joining me as someone who has worked alongside resident biden for decades, my old boss, white house chief of staff, ron klain. he could tell he was having a good time with it, those were funny, they landed well in the room. he's been doing that out on the campaign trail as well. there's this question of what is the right strategy of going after trump. are you angry? are you bold? are you funny? he has been needling him. what do you think of that

strategy? >> it's funny, he loves to campaign, he loves working the rope line and engaging voters, he gets in a good mood out on the road, so the jokes come. i don't think it's a big political strategy to take down donald trump, i think trump is sticking himself down every day. and it's important for him to make the distinguishing of what he's going to do. >> he needles him, and trump response, it's like he can't help himself. perhaps you have prepped more candidates for debates than anyone, somebody can fact check me on that. there's the question will they debates, once they debate, they both said they would. you both have said they need fair rules. what with those look like? what should people understand about that?>> i think they will debate, they both said they would debates, i think there will be debates, we have to see

something different from 2016 and 2020, where the debate commission lost control of the debates, trump didn't follow the rules that all come he talked over his opponents, there wasn't a fair division of time, it was more a spectacle than a debate, we need to have debates where the candidates get equal time, where there is an orderly way of proceeding, where it's not a shouting match, and you can compare the two people who are leading candidates for president. >> the rules are so important, that's part of the negotiation of it all. >> there are rules that have to be enforced.>> the president was emotional come he talked about his personal life, the loss of his first wife, he spent time with former presidents, a new strategy, a new media strategy, to me, it's

reaching a broader audience. what do you make of this? it shows a different side of joe biden that everybody doesn't see. >> i think they are doing a great job with it, getting him out there more, the more people see him, the more they like him, the more they remember how they like him. as the president, you get stuck in the white house, you get stuck out in the rose garden. his decency, his humanity, what he believes in, what he stands for, presenting him in these non-personal outlets is a way for people to get reacquainted with the president, and remember their personal connection with him, i think it's a very straight smart strategy.>> i know very well the president doesn't comment on legal cases, i was curious, you are someone who spent decades in the government, working for the white house and the justice department.

i wonder what was going through your head with some of the arguments being made by the trump legal team in front of the supreme court, basically that any president should be immune, what were you thinking when you were listening? >> this is america, no person is above the law, not even the president, that has been an important principle. richard nixon said after he resigned if the president does it, it's always legal, it wasn't then, it isn't now. i think our system of justice will find a way to effectuate justice.>> you are and institutionalist as well, how do you feel about the supreme court's demise, in terms of popular opinion? >> i think the court has brought it on itself, going back to earlier history, bush versus gore, since then, they've been on a bad track with getting rid of a fundamental right of choice,

unraveling the right to privacy, a fundamental basic american right, now we will see what they do with this trump case. i think the court needs to think by its own legitimacy, prior versions of the supreme court were very conscious of that, i hope justice roberts and his colleagues take that into account.>> there have been protests regarding the war between israel and hamas, and the president has announced, the white house has announced that he's going to speak. it has been clear, there will be protesters. what do you think he's going to say to the protesters? what should he convey in that moment? >> i think the president will be speaking to the graduates of morehouse, is economic policies, his social justice policies, and what they offer.

i think it's an important message, i don't think process should be able to keep him away. i think protests does protesters have a right to speak out, but some of the protests are anti-semitic and have no place in our country. i'm glad the white house has spoken out about that. people are chanting node justice come in no peace, the release of the hostages, bringing those innocent people home safely, hopefully, the president has his team, trying to produce a just cease-fire, and that's important. antony blinken, secretary burns, they've been in the region. it's important to make clear he understands the suffering of the palestinian people, he's doing everything he can to bring humanitarian relief to the people in gaza, and continues to push for a peaceful outcome. >> we have about 30 seconds left. this is a bigger question, do you think people are concerned

enough about rfk junior, and the threat he poses in a handful of states, michigan and maybe some others? >> people are concerned, i'm concerned, worrying is my special talent. but look, in the end, i think the american people are going to realize only one of two people can come president on january 20, that's the choice in our system, in a two-party system, people need to vote for joe biden or vote for donald trump, and if they don't vote for joe biden, it's a vote for donald trump. coming up, there's a lot of focus on the upcoming election, but new charges continue to be filed against those who worked to overturn the last one. i will tell you about the indictments we saw this week in arizona, when we come back. [ music ] sic ]

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tiffany: anybody and everybody that contributes anything to this place, no matter if it's a big business or just the grandmother that donates once a month, they are changing people's lives. and that's a big deal. [music playing] remember when i said it feels like we are all drinking from a news firehose right now, with that in mind, it's completely understandable if you missed that donald trump was just named in unindicted co- conspirators are co-conspirator into more jurisdictions. a grand jury indicted 18 people in action with a fake elect screening, the indictment says the people who were charged schemes to prevent the lawful

transfer of the presidency, to keep unindicted co-conspirator one in office against the will of arizona's voters. that's arizona. on the very same day in michigan, a state investigator testified that trump was an unindicted co-conspirator in the criminal investigation into the fake electors scheme there. add them to the list. michigan and arizona are two of four states attempting to hold those accountable who were tending to undermine election results. more than 50 people now face criminal charges. 50 individuals, trudged across four states. they are not even counting the people charged federally. the sheer number of indictments should be a shock to the system. what we saw this week was just another reminder that this was a sprawling, coordinated attempt to do a run around on the will of the people.

somehow, that still isn't universally agreed upon. a quarter of americans still think donald trump did nothing wrong in his attempt to overturn the 2020 election. for vulcans, that number jumps to 50%. could be how they lied about what happened, or help recently they tried to pull it off. some literally signed their documents in front of cameras. it could also be there is just simply too much news to keep up with. for some, these indictments out of michigan and arizona might feel like one more thing on a pile for trump, but for the people of arizona, michigan, and every other state that trump and his allies try to defraud, it's not just one more thing. for lots of voters, it's an important step toward account ability for the people who tried to undermine their say in

how the country functions. it's easy to get numb to this stuff, but it's important that we don't. that does it for me today. my brand-new book, say more, it's coming out on may 2. i will be here on may 8, i will be visiting a bunch of other cities after that. i hope to see you out on the road. for now, stay right where you are, there's much more news coming up on msnbc. msnbc. new sensodyne clinical white provides 2 shades whiter teeth and 24/7 sensitivity protection. i think it's a great product. it's going to help a lot of patients. higher shipping rates may be

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