doing that type of thing. you'll remember several months ago, they revised and reformed the electoral reform act, right? they raised the threshold by which a member of congress could challenge the results of an election. they made clear that the president of the senate, the vice president of the united states is simply a ceremonial position. there are things right now that congress can do. >> we should note, we put on the screen there an excerpt from the "time" magazine interview, where trump didn't rule out trying to fire prosecutors who weren't going after he wanted, including manhattan d.a. alvin bragg. we appreciate you being here. msnbc justice and legal affairs analyst, anthony coley, thank you. of course, we'll have complete coverage of donald trump's trial throughout the day on the msnbc. thanks to everyone for getting up "way too early" with us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. are you looking for a university with no political protests?

look no further than trump university. trump university has stopped all student protests on campus by having no students and no campus. unlike trump university, most american universities make the mistake of existing, but trump university had the wisdom to be shut down for fraud 13 years ago. >> sign up for trump university. >> warning, you cannot sign up for something that was shut down for racketeering. >> guess what today is, my friend. >> i know what day it is. >> t.j., guess what today is? you have to come to me right here. >> oh, my god. >> do we have this camera, t.j.? do we have this camera? >> no, we don't. >> oh, you got me here. i'm looking here. >> yeah, yeah. oh, here we go. guess what? here's the crazy thing, my first day in television, and i'm so excited. i've never done this before. donny, you know what today is? >> anybody's birthday? >> rev, know what today is? >> i have no idea. >> i know what today is. >> game six. >> joe, please come sit down.

>> the knicks breaking everybody's heart again. >> yeah. >> it is mika's birthday. happy birthday! [ applause ] a huge day, is it not? how are you? good to see you. >> right here. >> should we sing? ♪ happy birthday ♪ >> no, oh, my god. >>. ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ ♪ happy birthday dear mika ♪ ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ >> i'm not supposed to drink this anymore. >> yay. [ applause ] >> let's go around and talk about something, tell us what you like about mika the most, donny. >> what i like about mika is she is so able to put you in your place. >> i know. >> such a graceful, elegant way. it shows the power of her and the power of women. >> you know, i think, actually -- >> wow. >> -- that's just specifically you. >> i think when he said "you," he meant specifically you.

i don't think it's just one. >> this is a boring age. we should skip this one, i think, 57. i don't know. i'm good with it. >> what i like -- >> rev is talking about what he likes about mika. >> she has this unusual way of making you feel you're in charge when we all know better. >> exactly. >> awe. >> we're kind of saying the same thing. >> am i in charge, honey? >> yeah. >> it's funny -- >> don't call me that. >> -- people will say, joe, he should let mika do more on the air, and mika is like, you know, i'm the puppet master. >> cute. >> people are texting. all right. let's stop this now. >> no. >> i have something to say. >> okay. mika, she walks the walk when it comes to helping women and gives you the best advice. i can text her, do i wear this or not, ask for this or not, and she'll tell you hard truths but

does it with a lot of kindness. >> that is really something. >> someone you can rely on. >> when you text her or you ask her, she's going to tell you the truth. >> be ready for it. >> it helps. >> yeah, yeah. >> upunless you don't want the truth. richard? >> i appreciate her enthusiasm when we talk about sports. one of the reasons i like coming onto the show. it is her commitment to long conversations about the latest in sports. >> are the knicks going to lose? >> we don't want to go there. i need grief counseling from the other day, joe. >> okay. i thought you were in a bad mood this morning. i don't know what happened. >> i'm never in a bad mood. >> yeah, yeah, okay. >> the newspaper of record. >> it's the coffee. starbucks is no good anymore. it is burned no matter where you buy it. new york, florida, it is burned. something is wrong with it. and it is too expensive. >> happy birthday to you. >> suze orman told me never to

buy it again. thank you, nbc, for this, but we're not doing it. >> lost over 15% or something? >> tastes different. >> is it because they burned mika's coffee? >> market signal. >> dm if you think the starbucks tastes burned and day old. >> wow, this is -- this is getting -- >> she's great this morning. >> happy birthday. >> what an opening. >> i'm just telling you. i was driving to starbucks all over a certain part of florida, and now i did it here, and i was in d.c. >> hold on. >> it's all burned or a day old. >> sweetie. >> or they've changed something. >> who do you wake up at 5:30 on saturday and sunday morning to drive all over florida to get starbucks for? >> well, you get it for me, that's true. >> so i bring it back. how is this, dear? it's burned. go to another one. yes, ma'am. >> awful. forget it.

>> 10:00, we usually have -- >> i make it myself, and that's what i should have been doing for years. if i'd listened t susie orr mab, i would have saved money. >> always right. >> jonathan lemire is here. >> happy birthday, mika. >> we need to talk, jonathan. it's time. >> for what? >> "way too early" is way too early for him. >> you saying he needs to graduate to doing sports at 5:45 and getting somebody else to start at 6:00? >> we need him here, and we'll figure something else out. >> we'll be quick. it is mika's birthday. the red sox pitching, jonathan lemire. >> the best present she could get, the red sox pitching has been historic. the best. >> wow. >> considering a rotation of more or less no-name starters coming into the season. they've been terrific. credit to the pitching coach, andrew bailey. joe, and you i have been talking about this on a daily basis,

surprising, fun, and, so far, successful. >> all right. >> mika, that is my birthday present to you. >> thank you. can we stop. >> yeah. >> okay. we're going to the news now. there's no one else to introduce. it's just us. >> okay. >> family at the table. donald trump will not commit to accepting the results of the 2024 election. in an interview with "the milwaukee journal sentinol," he repeated the lies. we were so shook that we have decided to go back in way deeper -- oh, this is a new one according to alex. okay, this is "the new york times." when asked about this november, he said, quote, "if everything is honest, i'll gladly accept the results. i don't change on that. if it's not, you have to fight

for the right of the country." >> "milwaukee journal." richard haass, people across the world look to the united states and have always looked up to the united states. donald trump certainly changed that in many ways, but donald trump, as you've always said to me, it just shook our neighbors just like it shook us. now, you have him once again, a guy who is the favorite in a lot of polls, saying, "i will not accept the results of the election unless i win." >> yesterday it was the "time" piece. >> yes. >> i need to get it straight. >> it's the peaceful transfer of power. when the former president and the guy who beat him drive down the avenue, and you have a peaceful transfer of power, what a demonstration that is to the commitment of democracy, rule of law, to accepting the norm. donald trump has done two things. one, he is essentially saying, i only support it if i win because

there is no history of rigged elections, essentially. second of all, the threat of political violence. that is out there. i mean, we have 57 days between election day and inauguration. that's when january 6th happened last night, in the 2 1/2 month period. that is the precarious moment for our democracy. it not only distracts us, but imagine what our foes are going to think. if we have having a contested situation and we are literally having a return to violence, or imagine, joe, you have several governors or state legislatures saying, we don't actually agree with that. we'll send this set of electors to washington. >> right. >> we could have that this time. >> donny, that's the thing. the system did hold last time. the courts held last time. the state legislatures held last time. but, you know, just like the "time" piece yesterday suggested, donald trump and people around him are figuring out how to subvert democracy if

he doesn't win. let me say that slowly. so his apologists who will write this in an op-ed laughing saying, oh, they're saying donald trump is -- no, donald trump's own words say. they don't suggest, they say he will subvert democracy if he doesn't win, and if he does win, it'll be worse. he will subvert democracy more. he will fire prosecutors who will not arrest his political opponents. he said it. >> he says what he is going to do. what he is going to do to your point, joe, is have the fcc report to him so he'll be able to control shows like this. he wants the ftc to report to him. he wants the insurrection act to turn military troops on his own people. he wants to weaponize, as you said, the department justice to go after his enemies.

he wants women on a register for abortion if he wins. >> hold on. what you just said, somebody out in the trump sort of stratosphere will put on a website and say, look at donny deutsch freaking out, right? that's their ploy, that's the lie. i will say, you know, i love "the wall street journal" editorial page. i disagree with them a lot, but they will have people, like, writing op-eds, that will take what you just said and lie to their readings. they let them lie to their readers and say, "look at the media." i've read more of this. "the media are being is repeat his words. when we repeat his words, when i repeat his words as a conservative, and you found out this past week, i'm a conservative, like, live by the law. whether it's on college campuses, at the border, or

whether you're a president of the united states that lost an election, live by the law. right? i'm a conservative, right? you're a liberal. >> i'm not a liberal. >> a traditional liberal. >> ouch. >> now a moderate. >> okay. >> now called a moderate. i didn't say progressive. you are a traditional liberal. we just read the words on the page. we report it, but the trump right and the trump media will say, donny is losing his mind. they have trump derangement syndrome. >> i deal with it every day. i just use his words. i just talked about if he wins. if he loses, he will tell people to take to the streets with violence. he's telling you. he's telling us. if he wins, we're in trouble. if he loses, we're in trouble. >> that's where we're going next, to the comments following what he told "time" magazine, about whether he is concerned about violence stemming from the outcome of this year's vote, especially if he doesn't win.

he answered, quote, "if we don't win, you know, it depends. it always depends on the fairness of an election." >> rev, are you worried about violence? every political person that loves this country would have said the answer to that, and look throughout history and say, no, i'm not worried about violence because i'm going to speak out against violence. my people will not be violent. we will accept the results of the election. everybody says that. donald trump is now saying, well, it depends. >> saying -- >> maybe we'll be violent. >> saying it depends, saying his reaction is based on whether it's the a fair election. who determines what's fair? he does. he is spelling out, i believe in an autocracy, i will decide if it is fair. i will decide how i will respond to violence. as someone running to be the

head of state again, to say it depends, at this kind of instability, we can't afford to have it no matter who the candidates are. can you imagine anywhere else in the world this would happen, we would be denouncing that person that is trying to be head of state? here we have it right here, and we're acting like this is a normal race, where you have one person in the race that could win. >> right. >> saying, "if i determine it's fair, it's fair. if i don't, it's not. and violence, it depends on what i say." this is not what this country is supposed to be about, and we shouldn't tolerate it. >> you know, jen, there is a stereotype of the trump voter that the media does. oh, people are stumbling drunk out of their trailer park and, you know, shooting raccoons or something like that. no, it's bankers. it's lawyers. it's people with advanced degrees. this is something anne applebaum brought out so masterfully in

her book, "the twilight of democracy." which is, the elites make this possible. think about all the billionaires that said, "oh, i'll never vote for donald trump." now, it's like, "yeah, i'll vote for donald trump." they know this. they read this. they read that donald trump says that there's going to be mass deportation. he's going to force prosecutors to arrest political enemies. he is going to execute generals that don't follow his commands. he is able to use s.e.a.l. team six to execute political opponents. he says, you can't arrest me for that. you can go down the list. he is going to be a dictator from day one. he is going to terminate the constitution. on and on, they've heard all of this. they heard what he said to "time" magazine a couple of days ago. it is a dark, autocratic vision of america, and these people, these educated people with

advanced degrees are the ones saying, yeah, i'll support donald trump again. thinking, oh, you know what? maybe my investments will go, or maybe he won't tax me 3%. not understanding that this is not just a threat to democracy, but this is a threat to capitalism. >> right. i mean, that's the thing that makes me think maybe they'll reconsider if they continue to hear him -- >> they don't get that. >> they will not make the connection. >> they don't get how it could affect them negatively. >> they don't think it'll affect business in the climate? >> they think -- >> but there are the 20% of people in republican primaries who still are not voting for him. there are the people that say they were worried about january 6th. the republicans against trump, those videos about people who voted for him twice but, because of january 6th, won't do it a third time. keep doing the interviews, keep saying this, like proud boys, "stand back and stand by." >> look at the polls. >> i know, i know.

>> a lot of swing state polls, talking about nevada, if you're talking about georgia, north carolina, they're not even close. >> here's trump in september of -- >> despite all this. >> -- 2020. september of 2020, take a look. >> will you commit to making sure that there is a peaceful transferrell of power after the election? >> we'll have to see what happens. you know that. i've been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. >> okay. >> chris christie said that donald trump started in the spring of 2020, started lying, going, "you know, this election may be rigged." he could see in his mind he knew he was going to probably lose, and he started in spring of 2020 trying to find an excuse for losing to joe biden. >> right, almost saying, if it is fair, it's okay. by definition, if he loses, it can't be fair. >> if he wins, it's fair.

if he loses, it's not. >> why do people invest in this country? why does our economy do well? it's the rule of law. you understand it is a safe place to invest. people can go to work. consumers can consume. what business leaders are missing, how much is at stake. the comparative advantage of the united states and the economy depends on the rule of law being paramount. if we no longer have that, they are kidding themselves if they think they can flourish. speaking of rule of law, before i get to this list put together by the reporter eric cordlessa on the report out yesterday from "time" magazine, we'll go live to ucla and the campus there. police are moving these protesters out. there is an encampment. there are student protesters, we believe. there also may be outside agitators. i'll put that in quotes. we'll monitor this and see how it pparently trying to

break up the encampment which, i believe, was negotiations for several days now. this is happening at campuses across the country. this one is a little larger, a little bit more like columbia was before they dispersed it. we will monitor this situation and come back to it as necessary. >> donny, what are your thoughts? >> as i'm watching this, two thoughts come to my head. first of all, i'd like to know where their parents are. >> i would like to know who they are. who these people are. >> hold on, can we back up first and ask who these people are? there are a lot of people who are not students. >> yes. >> they're not students. by the way, when people email me, i try to read as many emails as i can, and i swear to god, the theme of so many are, "joe, these are students. i believe the children are the future. teach them well." i write back, "thank you so much for watching the show. you mean the world to me. these are not all students.

this is organized. it is across the nation. by the way, we all have students. we all know students. we have all talked to our students. these are not all students." >> they're outside agitators. >> we'll find out. >> i want to put this against the backdrop of the vote yesterday, the anti-semitism in congress. 320 ayes. 91 people voted against the simple bill to protect against anti-semitism. that is one in four. the same numbers that the adl said have anti-semitic belief. congress is representative of americans. >> rev? >> i think that what is very, very alarming to me, who has been involved in civil rights and civil -- >> by the way, you walk the walk. you talk the talk. i remember in 2001, puerto rico, something you believed in. it was civil disobedience.

the greatest tradition of martin luther king. yes, you broke the law to make a bigger point. you got sent to jail. guess what? you weren't saying, "i want my meal plan." you said, "this is worth the fight. this is worth the sacrifice." >> i want my meal plan. >> guess what? you and others who protested, you changed american policy. >> we were protesting the navy bombing, and we were able to stop it. i did 90 days in jail. >> you came out, by the way, thinner, too, my man. >> i went on a diet. >> that was the beginning. >> i went on a fast. but anytime what you are protesting for becomes secondary to what you are doing, then you're really not protesting for it. you, in many ways, dramatize. what we did, what i did later in other situations, was to bring attention to a cause, not become

the cause. >> right. >> what is troubling me about a lot of this is they've become the cause. it's about them. it is not about pushing the cause. they need to ask themselves, if they were sincere, are you really focusing on what's going on in gaza, about the children, about the women, about the innocent people? in israel, are you focusing on whether or not you are violent or you can say the most incendiary statement? how are you guiding this? last about them. i think -- >> right. >> -- they've lost the message, and i think that's because they've been infiltrated by people that are not -- >> that is what i'm worried about. >> that's what we're all worried about. jen, you look at these protests, and, again, from, i'll just call it reporting, on a lot of these demonstrations, yeah, there are

palestinians whose families have been killed in gaza or whose families have been killed through the years, and we all certainly understand why they would want to be engaged. there are a lot of people that are just there -- i know this. you can email me if you want to -- that are just there because they want to be a part of something cool. there are outside agitators. yes, there are some people there because they hate jews. i'd like to say that's not the case. there's some people there because they hate jews, that weren't there because of syria. they certainly weren't there when russia kept killing civilians in ukraine. i haven't seen them out there for the 2 million uighurs who are in concentration camps in china. people go, we're funding israel. guess what? when you go and you buy gas, you know, you're indirectly helping russia. you're directly or indirectly

helping iran. when we trade and buy cheap products from china, you're helping china repress not only people in hong kong, you're helping china repress the uighurs, et cetera. we could go down that path if you want. again, these people weren't here when half a million arabs were killed in syria. they're here now, though. why? >> you know -- >> because jews are involved. go ahead. >> well, yeah. in terms of it not being students, you know, people seem to question that. the student leader from columbia was in "the new york times" saying, "this is an autonomous group that took over the hall," right? it is not as if we are projecting these are not students. the student leader said, it was an autonomous group that did that. the reporting that sort of helped put this in perspective, jeremy peters wrote a piece yesterday after interviewing a lot of protesters. there are -- we all have in our

lives, we're concerned about gaza, people we know are concerned about gaza. it is very sincere and tragic. but what he identified was that these people had -- you know, they were upset how indigenous people were treated, climate change. it was kind of this, you know, sort of new world clash of ideologies that they were expressing there. that won't be limited to this issue, right? even if -- this is what i'm thinking about, like how does this affect the election, where does this go to? even if the gaza conflict is resolved, you are likely to see, you know, this, moving on to the next issue, which is sort of also your point. they will -- but the thing that i'm processing, where does this go, how does this affect young people writ large, i don't see young people writ large getting behind that kind of agenda.

it's not going to -- >> i hope you're right. >> it is not going to resonate in their lives the way concerns about inflation, economy, student loans, student debt, things like that, i don't think it'll resonate the way -- but, you know, this is great for donald trump. >> yeah. >> all this is great for donald trump. >> he loves this. >> we're looking at what's happening right now on the campus of ucla. you can see the police are working to try to disperse this encampment and break it down. looking at "washington post" coverage, live coverage of things happening across the country, we have a situation at the city university of new york where arrests happened. university of buffalo, stony brook university, ucla, of course, 90 arrests on the campus of dartmouth. a state department -- somebody who quit the state department supports the protests and has canceled his appearance there. it goes on. i mean, this is not just ucla

and columbia. portland state, the library looks destroyed from the pictures i'm looking at here from "the washington post." it goes on and on. right now, i think it's fair to say that we don't really know exactly how many students and outside agitators are involved and who the outside agitators even are. but it is questionable to believe that it would just be students in there doing this. if it is, then your question, the point you were about to make, donny, is 100% correct. we've got a problem. i would like to go to jonathan lemire, if possible. >> i just want to follow up, though. again, based on the student leader at columbia, we don't have to ask if those were students in charge of taking over the building. the student leader at columbia said they were outside agitators. >> autonomous group is how they

described that. >> i want to wait until we have the arrests. >> the students are not paying for this. >> that's my instinct. i don't feel comfortable about this. >> i think we also need to bring up the violence, the vandalism. when you go into the columbia hall where they had destroyed property, what is that about? what is the point of that? that's not -- >> how is that going to help the people of gaza? >> exactly. >> you are supposed to be protesting and, in my opinion, rightfully so, violence on either side. you're doing violence to a building? >> correct. where did they learn that? >> i'm leading marches now, and i'm looking at this saying, wait a minute, you're tearing up walls? >> yeah. >> in the name of what? children in gaza? >> breaking windows. >> there is some other element that is hijacking this. >> i don't disagree. jonathan lemire, i'm assuming

the biden administration is watching this closely and trying to figure out a response, as well, if there should be one at this point. what do you think? >> yeah, the biden administration certainly watching closely. the president himself, though, hasn't had much to say on this issue since these protests really kicked up in the last week or two. he spoke briefly last week, saying there is no need for violence. he understands those who are protesting peacefully about the situation in gaza. he empathizes with that. a deputy press secretary put out a statement the other day when the building at columbia university's campus was seized, saying it crossed the line. the administration condemned that. white house press secretary karine jean-pierre asked about the matters at columbia and other campuses simply said, the president was mob monitoring it. yes, polls suggest, there is not a huge issue for most voters, and the political arm of the biden world certainly watching that. but they're also deeply concerned about the images. first and foremost, there's violence and could be people injured. also, there is a fear it could

further alienate young people who associate biden with israel here and against the palestinians, fair or not. that is a perception among some of the young. also, they feel like some independent swing voters simply turned off by these scenes of chaos. certainly, donald trump is trying to put the blame on joe biden for that when we, of course, know the administration has nothing to do with scenes there on these campuses. we should note, the president is now, the white house announced yesterday, going to deliver a major speech next week, tuesday, at the holocaust memorial museum commemoration at the u.s. capitol here in washington, where he'll talk about the rise of anti-semitism and denouncing that. of course, we are seeing anti-semitism as a major part of some of the protests, being hijacked from the peaceful protesters in so many places, as we watch, again, live footage here at ucla. a lot of smoke in the air. we're hearing some bangs. unclear exactly what's happening as police try to clear this encampment. >> the college is putting out word, ucla, on twitter, "campus

operations will be limited tomorrow and friday. please continue to avoid campus and the royce quad area per academic senate guidance. all classes are authorized or required to pivot to remote tomorrow and friday." they're going remote. >> by the way, exam time. >> yeah. >> exam time. >> end of the year, graduation time. >> people go, oh, oh, aren't you worried about -- yeah, yeah. we've expressed our concerneds about gaza. tearing up campuses, destroying property, breaking the law does not help one child in gaza. it doesn't bring any supplies to gaza. they understand this. all this does is turns people away from the cause. guess what? they want us to talk about them, so we are talking about them instead of benjamin netanyahu and illegal settlements in the west bank and the fact that netanyahu doesn't want the war

to end because when the war ends, he's out of office and he has indictments that could send him to jail. we're not talking about that, donny, because they want us to talk about them, about them destroying property, young people, what's the line from buffalo springfield. young people carrying signs, mostly saying, hoorah for our signs. >> yeah. >> you want to help the people of gaza? there are a thousand better ways. >> i want to say something about joe biden. >> then i'll go to the scene. >> this is important. joe biden needs to speak out against this. i don't care about politics, about worrying about your left flank, worrying about young people. joe biden needs to be a leader and come out and condemn in an explicit way what's going on here. >> you know what? this is something that democrats, mika, hold on a second, this is something that democrats don't get in their gut. they never have. it's the thing that frustrates me about democrats. i voted for the war before i voted against the war. you know, always worrying, well, what about the 5% on the far,

far left that are going to call me this or that or the other? no. call this out. this is wrong. call this out. say, "we need to help the people of gaza." >> right, you can do it. >> we need to end the threat of famine in gaza. we need to pressure netanyahu to move towards a cease-fire and bring those hostages home. this detracts from our bigger cause. >> let me say this, the politics of that, what is being robbed by them not doing that, joe, where you and i agree, how do the democrats, how do all of us on that side say january 6th was wrong if you can have the same pictures going on on college campuses? >> good lord, don't make a parallel to january 6th. >> that has happened, though. >> okay. >> that has happened. >> so we know what is going on here, just the latest from the a.p., then we'll go live to the

scene. just that police tried for hours to disperse this encampment using loud speakers, warning these people -- are they students, students mixed with an outside group -- they were warned on loud speakers for hours, "you will be arrested if you do not leave. please leave peacefully." they are doing this now because the protesters did not leave the encampments. steve patterson is live at the scene with more. steve? >> reporter: mika, that's exactly what's happening now. police on multiple fronts pushing the crowd back. this crowd became agitated after police breached the encampment. the encampment is probably 500 yards to my left. it is in the far corner where they are releasing, as you can hear, flash gangs every few seconds. this line formed when protesters came and tried to push in this way. police now pushing that line back. it's very dark, but we can see

there is just continuous sort of scrapping in the crowd as police are trying to do the best they can to push agitators back. we've seen multiple arrests on scene. we are now back behind the police line. they pushed us back for our safety. we're kind of being contained to this field. thankfully, that hasn't surged this way, and they've been able to sort of maintain a lid on the crowd by pushing back in an l-formation. meanwhile, the encampment, it's too far for you to see, but it is over this way. if we could come down the field a little bit, this is sort of the back end. protesters armoring this area up all day long. it started with the fence line, then they built boards. the boards became shields. the shields and helmets became -- and they geared it up for this moment. we've seen this sort of fortification happen for the last, i would say, six to eight hours yesterday into tonight. now, we're in a situation in which, as you mentioned, police

gave the warning. they've been on the loud speaker for the last three, four hours or so, telling the crowds to leave. those that chose to stay are now, obviously, being pressed upon. >> yup. >> steve, can i ask you? joe here. can i ask you, did we have a similar scene that we had at columbia, where students were -- the people who were students there were offered the right to walk away? did you see some students leaving voluntarily before this confrontation began? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely. look, police have been transparent about this. they have been telegraphing this and posturing. we've watched sort of the progression of the police being here as a security force, making sure there were no more counter-protesters, keeping the area safe for the people that were here in the encampment. then, all of a sudden, the switch flips. the announcements come up from the university, from the police, from the state really, to say,

essentially, this is now changing into an element in which you need to leave. we consider this encampment unlawful. safety is breached for students on campus. there was a clear delineation. police are all of a sudden wearing riot gear, have zip ties, wearing helmets. the choice from a student now, are you putting on a helmet, picking up a shield, bracing for a fight essentially? many students chose to leave. we saw sort of a mass leave not too long ago, before all of this was happening. others sort of choosing to protest peacefully outside of the encampment, where they were holding these peaceful rallies to sort of generate support for the people that were going to stay. but then there are the hard-core element of people who chose to stay and chose to fight back. now, they are fighting back, guys. >> steve, just to your point,

they did try to disperse this peacefully. what i'm getting from ""the associated press" is shortly before 2:00 a.m., they made their way into the perimeter of the encampment. this is the police and the authorities. only to retreat after being outnumbered by scores of protesters who yelled "shame on you." some in the crowd threw water bottles and other objects at the officers as the officers then backed away. later, the crowd chanted "we're not leaving. you don't scare us." armed with batons and full riot gear, california highway patrol officers returned about an hour later and stood within feet of scores of protesters who continued to throw objects at them and yell. more than 100 protesters moved from the stairs, leading down the encampment to block a side entrance to the encampment where police were advancing. clearly, the protesters had

no -- they didn't want to leave and didn't want to do this peacefully. >> steve, we'll get back to you. you asked what parents were saying about this. for parents whose children are -- and they are children, by the way. there are some adults. i say this because we have kids, obviously, of college age. i just -- obviously, there are many that are distressed. i'm sure many are concerned about their safety. i certainly hope the students got out and are doing it peacefully right now. richard, this is -- i tried to explain this a couple days ago. maybe i wasn't eloquent enough. i can tell you my family -- i'm not saying the vietnam war was a just war. it was not a just war.

but i can tell you, the riots on college campuses, the riots at the chicago convention in '68, all those things moved my family from being democrats their entire life to being republicans. i remember. i was young. i remember my parents asking, what in the world is going on in this country? of course, you know, they were raised in the great depression, in rural georgia, kind of hard for them to hear rich kids on campus of harvard are taking over campuses at columbia. by the way, if you're offended by this, please, i'm trying to help you. i don't want donald trump to get elected, all right? >> there you go. >> i'm trying to help you. if you are too stupid to figure that out, change to another channel.

we're sorting through this as a country, and this is not helping. this is not helping the people of gaza. this is not helping those of us who want to fight fascism in america. but, richard, you remember '68. it was a tidal wave. there is a reason that reagan won with a lot of young voters in 1980. there is a reason the reagan revolution took place. the seeds were planted in 1968. again, when i say that, i'm not saying that the vietnam war wasn't an unjust war. it was. i'm saying, there are ways, as the rev has proven, as he proved, as martin luther king has proven, others have proven, there are ways to do this that help the cause without hurting, without aiding the worst

elements in american politics. >> couple of thoughts. when did democracies crumble? when they lose control of currencies, inflation gets out of control, people lose all their savings. we've seen that historically in places. and scenes like this. if you give people the choice, well, i may be uncomfortable with some of the politics of some sides, but we need physical safety, we need order, this is seen as a real threat to democracy. this is, in many ways, i think, school authorities who have lost control of their campuses. they didn't set clear rules. they weren't prepared to back them up. now, you have to take back the campuses. they never should have lost them in the first place. >> let's go to the split screen of the riots going on in florida. oh, wait, there are no riots going on at the university of florida because the president said, "we don't run a day care center here. if you want to protest this, we respect your right to protest. but we're not going to let you break the law and destroy buildings." >> right. free speech is not an absolute, and it is not the only right on a campus. there has got to be balance

against other rights, obligations. one last night, these are educational institutions. they ought to be thinking, one, about their failure to maintain order and protect the rights of everybody. what about one other thing? how about educating? you said before, this isn't helping the young people in gaza. you know, where is the teachings here? at least in vietnam, we had some teach-ins in '68. why isn't columbia, why aren't these places saying, here's an opportunity to educate. not just, by the way, about the policy failures of the israeli government. what about the history of the peace process? what about the times the palestinians kicked away chances at peace? what about the nature of hamas' rule in gaza? the gays for gaza, how good do they think it'd be under hamas? this is a chance to have teach-ins, get people smarter, more sophisticated, balance to what is going on. there is blame to spread around. i don't see universities stepping up. >> these protesters are going to hand the election to donald

trump. we are going to have fascism as a result of these protesters. joe biden, you need to step up right now. >> what exactly, though, is he supposed to do? i mean, these need to be -- >> certainly come out. >> call it out. >> for what it is. >> call it what it is. >> we need to know what it is. >> these are people that are breaking the law. >> that's correct. >> protest peacefully. learn about the situation. i'm telling you, i'll just say from my reporting, an overwhelming majority of the students that have been involved get their news from tiktok. >> yeah. >> they have no idea what happened in 2000 at oslo. they have no idea the palestinians were offered 97% of the west bank, and they were going to be compensated the other 3%. they have no idea that there was a right to passage from gaza over to the west bank. they have no idea. the deal that bill clinton was able to pull together between

israel and palestine, then yasser arafat passed on it. why? i said it in real time, because he knew hamas would kill him. he'd end up just like that. they have no idea about this. they have no idea. if they did, they would understand just how dangerous benjamin netanyahu was to the peace process. >> and -- >> they would understand how he had an alliance with hamas, he had an alliance with hamas because the one thing that hamas and benjamin netanyahu had in common is, they saw peace. they saw a two-state solution as a threat to their very existence. >> and on a very local level, what we're looking at right here, as the police are trying to disperse this, is a lot of questions as to how this started. we're going to take a break, by the way, and bring in nypd chief

john chell to talk about this. when you see those big pieces of wood, bed frames, whatever they are, and the encampment set up, we have to can how that even started. that's not allowed. like, that creates a threat, and that is -- obviously, you have to get permits and all sorts of things to do something like that in a public place at a school. why the university allowed that to happen, what we're looking at right here, is a big question. we wouldn't be in this situation we are now if they let it grow and swell to this point. >> does anybody have an answer to that? i can tell you, if i'm running a university -- >> look at this. i'd say no way. >> the plywood is not even -- you don't even think about that! you know, i want to know what these school administrators are thinking. how do they even let it begin down this path? >> they're building up -- >> they're academics.

ben sasse is the university of florida, right? >> you can't allow this. also, once you lose control, to regain control is incomparably worse. they've got to have clear rules and back them up. once you lose control, this is what you get. >> university of chicago, they sent out a letter. if you do this, you'll be expelled. guess what? nothing is happening at the university of chicago. >> look at brown and yale, where they were able to sit down with the administration and resolve it. the problem is, as he keeps saying, you have people there that don't want to solve this. they're there -- >> they want these images. >> the 106 professors at columbia came out supporting hamas. >> they're going to elect trump, and they don't care. their agenda is this. they're using these young students as props. >> by the way -- >> for an anarchist agenda. >> i wonder if any has an awareness of what donald trump's

middle east policy would be, what would be the consequences for palestinians. >> netanyahu. i mean, netanyahu -- >> we need journalists. we need reporters. we need people figuring out about the funding. not just of this but the radicalization of our students on college campuses on this issue. let me tell you, and i'll go there, qatar, i believe they're the largest contributor to american universities over the past decade. qatar. they have poured hundreds of millions of dollars into american universities to have a radicalizing effect on middle eastern studies. i must say, it has worked. >> 106 professors at columbia came out supporting hamas. >> yeah. >> think about it, teaching our students. >> okay. we are going to continue this conversation after a 60-second break. we're back in one minute with more live coverage from the

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encampment on campus. moments ago, police detained multiple demonstrators breaching the encampment. this comes as protests surrounding the war in gaza have upended campus life across the country. this, by the way, happened only after hours of police attempting to disperse this encampment peacefully. they told through loud speakers the protesters would be arrested if they did not disperse. they are doing this now because the protesters gave them no other choice. they would not leave. in fact, the protesters threw things at law enforcement and screamed at them that they were not leaving. and they are not afraid. joining us now, nypd's chief of patrol john chell. he's had his share of this across the country, in new york city, on the campus of columbia and beyond. >> chief, thank you so much for being with us. right now, based on the

experiences that you and the nypd have had over the past couple days, what is the first thing administrators at ucla should do? >> the first thing they should have done, not let it get to this point. >> right. >> they should have stood tall like the nyu president did one day and took care of it. >> how? >> asked us to come in right away and take care of it. they put up barriers, and we haven't spoken about it since. >> that was built. >> right. what should happen here, the president should say, if you don't leave the campus at this point and you are a student, you will be expelled. if you are a faculty member or staff member, you will be fired. >> yeah. >> i guarantee ya, those kids would leave. they don't want their dorm material on the corner and have mom pick them up the next day. that'd be the first thing. >> there are so many students that want to get into these colleges. >> right. i'm sure every college, people miss it by a percentage point. >> there is a waiting list.

>> i'm sure they'll say, i'll partake as a good student and relish this great school and not partake in this behavior if it occurred. >> i will not destroy property. talk about, we've been reading about, and jen talked about the student leader at columbia saying those are outsiders. they're autonomous. don't weren't students that took over the building. can you tell when you go in who the student is and who the outside agitator is? >> from doing this a long time, just eyesight, yes, you can. when you're dressed in black, a black scarf, i'm not sure if that is a chemistry student. [ laughter ] >> do we know, like, on the campus of columbia of the arrests that were made, i mean, have we been able to -- >> we're filtering through the 282 from columbia and city college, because it was going on the same night, too. we were doing two at the same time. last time we knew of columbia, 30, 35 were outside people. >> there ya go.

>> three things are going on. kids protesting on campus because they think they're protesting the right thing. those are house rules. that's one thing. >> yeah. >> then you have students who testing who are crossing the line into hate speech. >> yeah. >> you should be expelled. then you have the outside agitators. outside, inside, radicalization, the one woman was teaching them to barricade themselves, teaching them to take out cameras in hamilton hall, all these tactics we have to deal with. how did they get on campus, number one? number two, what are they doing? what is the overarching goal? is it that protest or something bigger universally? that's got to go beyond the nypd. >> that's what i'm worried about. >> the chief and i have been on the other sides of the barricades for a long time. >> yeah. >> but you know that we are about an issue. what is being lost here is what is the cause? the kids? gaza are suffering while we're looking at agitators that have taken the focus off of what it's

supposed to be. many of us, i'm fighting right now affirmative action, dei, joining kimberly crenshaw tomorrow, right to learn, about banning books. all of that is lost on guys that want to come in and violently disrupt. i think one of the reasons that people like you and i have always had a mutual respect, even though we might have been on different sides of the barricade, is you knew we were there for a bigger cause, not us. these people have made it only about them. this graphics do nothing to help the people in gaza. in fact, it hurts them. >> this hurts everybody. throwing property and yelling at cops. what does this do with the point? rev protests properly, and we respect that, we're on the same page. but this is kids on college campuses. as a father, every time i step onto columbia, every time i was there, i'm a policeman, but my kids just left college and i'm like, this is broken.

the way we raised our kids to a certain point is not this way. >> yeah. >> chief, it seems as a common theme, universal theme in each of the campuses, and it has to do with the reluctance of the schools' administrators to deal with this verbally, initially, right away. they rarely did it. so when i was up there at columbia a couple days ago, the police were outside just lying there, waiting to be called upon. what was the negotiations like, if there were negotiations between the police department and columbia university's president and the office of the president? >> we were on the phone with them two, three times a day, trying to work through their process. they're not equipped for this. they're trying to appease different arenas of their world. >> chief, can we just say this? it is very easy to attack the president. if the president is ben sasse at florida, who did the right thing, he has professors and

others who will support him in education. let's just say, while i don't understand the images from columbia or ucla, you know this far better, and tell me fellow conservative friends, that president at columbia was walking a tight rope because there are faculty members and the faculty senate that wanted to censor her, who were encouraging the illegal behavior. >> exactly. to your point, behind the scenes, can you imagine what she was up against? different people. money involved, right? >> a lot. >> there's a lot of things at stake here. as they're going through their process, we keep asking, what do you need from us on the outside? you good? they finally put what they wanted, not once, but twice, and she was clear and concise. on the day we went in, we asked them, i asked them personally, do me a favor, keep negotiating.

keep downplaying it as we prepare. we want to have a little surprise, a little element of surprise when we go in, to avoid any type of confrontations. we did it flawlessly. the plan worked. we had to secure the perimeter. we had five dorms with 2,000 kids in it that we didn't want coming out to the campus and getting into a confrontation. i got the president to agree, if any child came out -- i call them children -- if any confronted us, they'd be warned, you'll get expelled. that worked. the tents ran into the building. we had the building. the beautiful building inside is destroyed. >> terrible. >> unbelievable. >> it is terrible. >> destroyed. and how does destroying that beautiful building help a starving child in gaza? >> it doesn't. >> mind-boggling. >> a lot of students don't realize what they're protesting. let's be honest. >> yeah. >> top of the hour. we're talking with nypd chief john chell.

we're looking at live pictures from the west coast on the campus of ucla. police are detaining protesters and pulling down the encampment on campus. this is, what, just before 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. 4:00 a.m. on the west coast. >> happy birthday, sweetie. she's very excited. >> two hours ago, police tried to disperse this encampment peacefully. we, of course, here are looking at these pictures, raising the question as to why the encampment was allowed to be built at all. creating a threat and a danger to everybody on campus and also destroying the campus property. however, this is where we find ourselves. police and the state police were trying to use loud speakers to tell the protesters, some students, potentially some outside agitators, it's the phrase we're using, to disperse peacefully. if they did not, they would be

arrested. what authorities got in return was having bottles and other objects thrown at them and chants, "we are not afraid of you. we are not leaving." so in the past hour, authorities moved in, in riot gear, set off the loud bangs to try to help disperse. that is what we're watching right now. it appears authorities are trying to execute this as peacefully as possible. we will be watching for arrests in this situation. especially looking at who was arrested, how many were students, were there any faculty involved, and, also, outsiders, who are they? why are they there? what are they doing alongside the students on the campus of ucla? >> and a bigger question, jen, which is, is there a bigger coordination behind this? i talked about qatar before. people don't know, qatar is one of the biggest contributors to

college campuses in america. it's radicalized a lot of middle eastern studies facilities. is it qatar? is it other organizations? when you have this exploding all over, those are questions that have to be asked. and i must say, also, i want to ask you politically, what i've been patiently trying to explain to people that watch this show every day -- and thank you for watching this show every day and think i'm too conservative, you should have figured that out 17 years ago -- what they don't understand is, and i disassociate, the chief has nothing to do where this and i hope this doesn't bother you, me saying this, i'm going to get political. for those bothered by us talking

about how this makes no sense, they need to ask themselves, these agitators and this violence, the destruction of property, does that help donald trump in wisconsin or hurt donald trump in wisconsin? does that help him in michigan, or does that hurt him in michigan? does it help him in pennsylvania? does that hurt him in pennsylvania? if they go, well, we really don't care, well, then that's what the split is, because i do care. i do care. i'd be angry about this regardless. but for those people, if they're interested in the bigger stakes of this, again, my parents in '68 saw this happening on college campuses at chicago. they said, well, we used to be democrats. we're not democrats anymore. >> yeah, it is -- i mean, the -- you know, who benefits from this? you know, i don't know who my -- if there is organized in terms of the outside agitators, you

know, think about who benefits from it. who wants to sow dissent in the united states. but i also hold the students accountable. it's not all about the outside agitators. i hold the students accountable. this is not helping. are you affecting your cause? by the way, their cause is getting the universities to divest. i'm not sure how effective that's going to be ultimately in dealing with the israeli/gaza conflict. you might direct your attention elsewhere. also, i think about what the president should be saying, should say about this. >> and how -- to the chief's point, how did it even get to this point? >> yeah. >> in most colleges, i would hope, if somebody destroyed a building, they're expelled. >> they are not prepared. >> there is no suspension. if professors, mike, are helping this along, you know, i mean, if

they can be fired, they need to be fired. >> you know, joe, to your point that you just raised, does it help or hurt various people in whatever state you're talking about, the ultimate problem with this is, first of all, it is a contagion. it goes from campus to campus. kids, young people jump on this, from one school to another. the growth of it has been enormous in a very short period of time, two weeks. the other problem is, most people today are going to wake up, are going to watch this for a few minutes while they get their toast and their coffee and get in their car and go to work and get on about their lives. but in the back of their minds, i would submit, these pictures resonate because it gives -- it feeds the idea that's out there in the body public, that something is wrong right now in this country. >> right. >> with the nuts and bolts of our democracy loosening, coming apart. that's the danger to the biden presidency. this universal feeling that

something is wrong out there. i assume that next week, when he speaks at the holocaust memorial in washington, that he will address this head on. >> rev, do you agree with mike? >> i definitely agree. i think that the problem that we have here, and i have to agree with you, joe, that there is something manipulating this from behind. i think the students might have started it. in fact, i know some of the students at columbia sincerely, but something is moving this around. we had the problem earlier this year where the first black woman president of harvard was removed. the issue of dei, which we're fighting and marching about now, was there. we didn't see this. we didn't see this around affirmative action. what's driving, what's fueling this? i think it's the real commitment of some students that are now being manipulated for a bigger picture that wants to see this,

that could care less about the people in gaza, that care less about the students, and that are really doing this because they want anarchy or they want to upset the politics. this is great for donald trump. donald trump has not been given -- been able to get 20 people to protest for him down at criminal court if he was passing out hot dogs after the march. but this helps him to do it. i think we've got to deal with it. that's why i wanted the students to stand up and say, wait a minute, we're against the anti-semitism being set. you can't be if you're about hate. you have to reclaim what you are there for, and that's what i wanted them to do. >> again, we're looking at police attempting to take down an encampment that protesters had put up on the campus of ucla. this is happening right now. as you can see in the live pictures, they attempted to do this peacefully a few hours ago. >> we heard on the ground, mika, repeatedly, the police repeatedly tried to get them to disperse peacefully. >> i have a few bits of

information from the school's public safety office. they say to avoid the area of dixon plaza due to police activity. police ordered the evacuation of dixon plaza due to unlawful assembly. do not enter the area of dixon plaza. follow directions of public safety personnel. ucla has modified campus operations. they've declared -- this is the university -- the encampment and all unauthorized tents and structures in dixon plaza to be unlawful. the university requires that everyone must leave the encampment and adjacent areas, as well as unauthorized structures and tents, immediately until further know tis. if you fail to leave and remain present in the encampment or unauthorized tents or structures in dixon plaza, regardless of your purpose for remaining, you will be in violation of the law. those who choose to remain could

face sanctions. for students, those sanctions could include disciplinary measures such as interim suspension, that after proper due process through the student conduct process, could lead to dismissal. they're getting closer, chief. they're getting closer to saying it. >> i would cut the first part and go straight for the dismissal. >> be expelled. >> dismissal and explanation point, that'd be my response. >> faculty -- go ahead. >> one of the things we shouldn't escape talking about this morning is the behavior of the new york city police department in this. >> right. >> it was basically community policing out there, in a sense. there was no threat of violence. >> this is state police on the scene. faculty, disciplinary actions will be handled through senate judiciary committees and academic affairs and personnel and staff employee disciplinary actions would be handled through human resources. please leave the area immediately.

>> i have a response. >> know what they ought to do? show the end of "raiders of the lost ark." we have people working on it. who? people. i mean -- >> i would have said, don't let the door hit you in the keister on the way out. >> that's the issue. i mean, i do agree with you that this is -- this is a lot of words. you're going to go through this tribunal, maybe you might be suspended, might be expelled. are you kidding me? you're throwing stuff at the cops. there is video of you. >> i know. >> i'm thinking you shouldn't be attending this university. >> there are a lot of students, a lot of great students that would like to attend ucla, columbia, a lot of these other worthy students who wouldn't destroy property and not break the law. that seems pretty clear cut to me. who knows? >> they have to go through a process but still. >> they need due process. we're all for due proprocess. >> the message could be clearer. >> yeah. you could say, after due process

hearing, if it is found you're on the campus -- >> you're risking expulsion. >> at this point, you will be expelled. not risking expulsion. you will be expelled. it worked at columbia. because of the chief's idea. it'd work here and would work at most places. chief, i want to follow up with what mike started on. let's talk about what happened at columbia at the end and why that -- why we didn't have these scenes at columbia. why things went so well and so peacefully at columbia. the nypd, and let us say, through your coordination with the president of columbia. >> it started with discussions. we did it twice now. we did it last week. the problem last week, they didn't have an after-action plan, when we left. that's why we had to do it a second time. the discussion with them, they knew how we acted the first time and had confidence in us to do

it the second time. when they lost hamilton hall, they had to do something. put it in writing. 20 protests since october 7th. we had a good plan in place. we knew the world was watching. that's number one. we could not have any mistakes. that was the key. we could not have any mistakes whatsoever. our team went in. again, we secured the perimeter, did it in layers. we brought our best out, too. we brought our best chiefs out to take the outside, the inside. i had the inside. who had the hall. as we did it, we sent a message. we're not playing around. we're affirmative in our stance. lightest touch possible. these are children. let's not mistake that. some agitators. >> right. >> we kind of pitched a shutout in terms of humbly speaking. two minor minor injuries. the outside agitators, press media that wants to have the moment, we didn't give it to them. now, we have the campus and will

secure it through commencement. we're partners in this. we'll get them through this and will get city college, too. >> are you confident, chief, that the students that were robbed of graduation ceremonies because of covid four years ago will be able to graduate in peace with their parents, family members, loved ones, spouses, partners? will they be able to graduate in peace at columbia? >> if i have anything to do with it, and i do, they will. we'll give them their day, the city their day, and then we'll move on, hopefully. >> nypd chief of police. >> let mike finish up with the chief. >> what you were just talking about, if you could explain in detail. it was beyond impressive in terms of a huge city, huge police department, huge numbers of young people, and, yet, it went off flawlessly. more importantly, undeline

this, please, to the country, peacefully on both sides. >> light. as we go through the process, we have community affairs people. technology was big. our drones were able to look at the whole campus, doors for emergency service, tactically. radio transmissions, encrypted, they couldn't hear us. as we cleared the kids out, they knew when we stand tall, send that message, we come heavy, if you will, i think that brings people down. everyone leaves. that was the goal. people try to antagonize us, but we're used to it. we smile within ourselves, talk to ourselves. >> you're practicing mindfulness. >> exactly. hello, how are you? >> very good to see you, yeah. i want to underline this fact, too, in a very volatile situation, only two minor injuries. that's a remarkable, remarkable

job of de-escalation, chief. >> we just don't want to get anybody hurt. these are students. these are people. we don't want anyone getting hurt. we don't want to get hurt. it is a relief at the end. these cops here, they're up against it. >> it's hard. >> i know as the commander in the school, my boss was there, it's a relief when it is over. >> yeah. >> you laugh about it or you -- but sigh of relief, and you're on to the next day. that's really -- i feel for the guys and gals right now. >> it is a difficult situation. again, we're watching the live events on the campus of ucla, where authorities are trying to break down an encampment and get protesters to disperse. they were warned they'd be arrested. we will be following this breaking story as it happens. nypd chief of patrol john chell, thank you very much for coming on this morning. >> my pleasure. >> thank you, chief, for everything. we'll be right back with more live coverage. because your basic things should be your best things.

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we're following breaking news. if you're just waking up on the west coast, these are live pictures of state police and authorities moving in on the encampment that is taking place on the campus of ucla. student protesters, potentially outside agitators, have been asked to leave. there are also potentially members of the faculty. we'll find out. but they were asked to leave several times over the course of hours, to leave peacefully or they would be arrested.

so what's happening now is unclear, probably some arrests taking place. we'll be interested to know, joe, to see in the lists of who has been arrested in this situation here, which is mirroring some situations across the country. >> right. >> there were 90 arrested on the campus of dartmouth. >> yeah. >> how many of those arrested are students, faculty, people from the outside? that is the question this morning. >> that's what we'll learn later on, and it is a question that needs to be asked. we need to also ask about, you know, is there funding behind this? >> right. >> domestically or internationally. i've talked about one country that has -- is one of the bigger funders of american universities. but, mike, when mika talked about faculty, i was thinking about brother buchanan. he'd talk about faculty lounge.

going back to '68, do you remember pat talking about being on the phone when there were riots in chicago, and he lifted the window and held the phone out for richard nixon to listen, and they both were talking about how beautiful that sound was? because that was the sound of nixon winning and humphrey losing. for people who are shocked, stunned, and deeply saddened that that is the reality, i can't help you. i don't vote in wisconsin, michigan, or pennsylvania. richard nixon knew. the riots on college campuses and the riots in the chicago '68 convention were going to help elect him over hubert humphrey. you know, people were calling hubert humphrey a war criminal and a pig and all this stuff on the far left. what'd they get? they got richard nixon and seven

more years of war in vietnam. >> 1969, the highest casualty rate of the vietnam war. richard nixon's first year of the presidency. you gave me chills up my spine, mentioning that 1968. in my life, i was there at grant park during that week in chicago. looking back on it now, reflecting on it now, just recently as it pops up in the news, '68, the riots, and today's riots we're looking at right here, right now, that, in a way, i think, you can trace the origins of how trump became president. part of the destruction that vietnam, the war caused within this country, is, initially, from 1965 through the end of 1967, whose sons were going to fight that war? >> right. >> it was the sons of plumbers and mechanics and steam fitters and pipe fitters.

the sons of working class america who went. it wasn't until about 19 -- late '67 and early '68 that all of the station wagons in the country had "another mother for peace" on the back of the wagon. they've do anything to get out of going to war. >> american legions, you know, those were the sons of the plumbers. >> yes. >> those were the people who felt betrayed. i always -- everybody said, oh, this created trump, that created trump. i always tell people, look at ken burns' documentary on vietnam. >> yeah. >> trump's name is never mentioned. this ugly, far-right dystopian

view of the world, it came from vietnam. kennedy lied. ken burns had him on tape. we know we can't win. keep them there until after the election. lbj saying, we can't win. i can't surrender. nixon saying, can't win. they all knew it. it was those kids, those plumbers' kids, those electricians' kids, the working-class kids, they were betrayed. >> they went, and they died. >> they went, and they died, while elitists' kids were tearing things up in chicago. and i'll offend a lot of people, but nixon knew. >> sure. >> that chicago was going to elect him president. >> in the vietnam documentary, ken burns' documentary, you'll shutter in disbelief when you hear it. the taped phone call between lyndon johnson and dick russell. >> yeah.

>> when lyndon johnson says, i know we're going to lose this war. i know we can't win this war. to richard russell, then the chairman of the senate armed services committee. the war went on and on and on. >> we have senator gary peters standing by. also, just updating the "l.a. times," which has six reporters working on this. they've confirmed they've already made dozens of arrests. we'll get to this in a moment. let's bring in correspondent steve patterson, joining us live from ucla's campus. steve, what is the latest from your vantage point? >> reporter: mika, since we last spoke, police have made their way into the encampencampment, shredding it like a bulldozer. they've made entry. i'll show the fence line. this was a solid wall of essentially plywood, that protesters had built up over the matter of a week. shredded down almost, i would say, in five to ten minutes. police moving through here,

destroying tear gas, destroying flashbangs, non-lethal weaponry, to push their way inside. what appears to be happening now is the final stand, right? all the protesters who were here maybe for a political message, here to support their fellow students, have left. what you have left now are people with hard hats and shields, yelling at police. they have formed a line. we are in the back of police. you can kind of see there's just a crease in between them, a very, very small margin between police in full riot gear and the protesters. i think the rest of the camp is behind them. police would like to get to that so they can dismantle this entirely. but the last sort of age ta agi the edge won't let that happen. >> did you say the protesters are in hard hats and have

shields? >> reporter: i wonder if we can, alan, get closer? if you can push back there, you can see some of what they have on. we saw them pulling hard hats, fashioning shields yesterday out of plywood. you know, as police were sort of gearing up and getting ready to go in, or at least posturing to do so. this appears to be what the purpose was for. as sort of police moved around the edges, they came in hard. they came in fast. anybody that wasn't prepared either left very quickly or was detained. we saw maybe about a dozen detentions in a matter of minutes. as they kind of went into the core of this, where they are now facing off against this sort of horder core line of protesters, i think that is where they've sort of pooled their resources to push police back. >> you did say, steve, a lot of students, though, did leave? >> reporter: absolutely. you know, we saw students sort of say that this was about the

message. i think there was a very, very peaceful movement here for most of this, including yesterday. sort of, you know, a rally on the steps at ucla that brought different groups, including faculty, including staff, including students, including people who i'm sure have nothing to do with the university, but the point is, they were joined together peacefully to talk about a message. whether that message is divestment, whether it is what they believe about palestine and their right to exist, whatever it is, it was peaceful. this element is a little bit different, obviously. you could say, while they're threatened by police who have now pushed into this encampment, something they've built up over the past week or so, you could also say that they've vowed to push back. that means what it means, which they don't care what violence that causes, what agitation that may cause on campus. that's the reason why the university wanted to shut this down, and that's what we're

looking at right now, guys. >> reading from the l.a. times, they describe it this way. "students, faculty, and staff put together the makeshift camps and demanded an end to israel's war. the demonstrations were mild, then a large group of pro-israel counter-demonstrators wearing black outfits and white masks arrives, tried to tear down the barricades. things got dangerous." steve, this is a hard question in the dark of night out there on the west coast on the campus of ucla, but any sense of whether the people who are being arrested are students, faculty? do you see any of this playing out? >> reporter: it's hard to tell. it's hard to tell from the very beginning what the makeup of this crowd was. there was never any sort of official delineation between who is a student and who is not, who is faculty and who is a student. we never had that information. this encampment has been so

sprawling throughout the week, as well. it was never the same size as we see new police elements moving into the crowd with batons and riot gear. sort of wanting to bolster their forces here. we never had an official estimation. i've seen the faces of people who have had zip ties and been detain and had pulled out of the crowd. we simply don't know, mika. >> got it. nbc's steve patterson, thank you very much. joining us now, the chairman of the democratic senatorial campaign committee, senator gary peters of michigan. he's also chairman of the senate homeland security committee. i guess, sir, we'll start with asking you to weigh in on this, especially as we're looking ahead to a very difficult campaign for president biden ahead. do you think the president should be speaking out about what is happening on campuses across america, but, specifically, what went down at columbia in the past few days and what is happening at ucla

right now? >> well, certainly, people are always entitled to peaceful protest, but, certainly, we do not accept violence. we also understand that to students who are on campus, they deserve to have the ability to pursue their education and to do it in a way that they don't feel threatened and are not safe. it is important for us to support peacefully protest, but understand if it crosses the line to violence or interferes with the right of other student s to pursue their education and, now that we're in commencement season, to enjoy commencement with their parents and the success they've had at school, that'sfrining on other people's rights and not something we should support. >> let's bring it back to the conversation we were just having, memories of 1968. there's concerns of white house aides that i speak to.

the president is set to give a couple commencement addresses in the weeks ahead. they know there will be protests there. there are protesters at nearly every event he does. they fear the signs of unrest will hurt his chances of winning re-election. what more can he, can the democratic party, you know, an issue that is so divisive, what's happening in gaza, what more can be done to try to cool these tensions? what more should the president be doing? >> certainly, i think the president is doing a lot now, working to try to bring a peaceful resolution to what is happening in gaza. he is certainly taking real leadership in the area, and it is very complex, very difficult. we have appropriated, for example, a significant humanitarian aid to help the people that are caught in the cross-fire, between this murderous terrorist group hamas and the israeli forces. it is going to take a peaceful resolution. that is something that certainly president biden has been focused on, has been pushing

aggressively to bring that resolution. we hope that we see that in the near future. >> senator, jennifer palmieri here. how are things at the university of michigan, michigan state, wondering if there are protests happening there? also, you had donald trump in your state yesterday. i believe he was in saginaw. a lot of concerning things being said related to the election, abortion rights, and wondering how that trip went over. >> well, donald trump was in michigan. he continues to put out the disinformation, election lies, as he always does. he hasn't changed his script at all. that's what we're going to expect going through this election. this is about, and my work in holding the majority in the senate, is making sure we stay in the majority. to make sure we're electing democratic senators. it is absolutely critical to hold the majority. we are very confident we're going to be able to do that. this is about candidate quality. if you look at the quality of

our incumbents versus the chall forward, it is similar to the last cycle, making history in holding the democratic senate. these are going to be tight races, hard fought. we're going to have to be out there campaigning aggressively. when the american people see the clear differences between democratic incumbents and the work we've done alongside president biden in moving this country forward, versus out of touch republican candidates, we're confident we're going to be successful. >> senator, al sharpton. the attempt to really define what this is all about with college campuses and other demonstrators that are coming in is something that you have to be concerned about as you try to deal with these senate races. is it -- and you, yourself, in michigan have a large arab

population there, so you understand the cause. i support a lot of what is happening in terms of saying we need a cease-fire. we need to represent what's going on in gaza is wron and a two-state solution. but this kind of anarchy takes away from the cause. how do you counsel your candidates to stand up for what is right, but at the same time not identify with those that are taking actions that really take it off of the cause and off of what the party and your candidates would stand for? >> well, it is important to stay focused on the issue and be focused on the key issues that we need to solve in the months and years ahead. it is about making sure we can find a peaceful resolution to what's happening in the middle east. if you look at the biden administration working aggressively now to try to get some sort of cease-fire, but as all of you know, you need two

sides for a cease-fire. you have to have hamas, who is willing to do that. yet, it is difficult when they continue to hold hostages in gaza. but bringing these parties together is going to be critically important. let's focus on innocent civilians who are being caught in the cross-fire, being in this war, and work to make sure we can keep them as safe as possible and provide humanitarian assistance for them, as well. let's focus on trying to find a resolution and a resolution that's peaceful as opposed to seeing some of this action we're seeing on campuses right now, which i don't think are helpful to bringing people together. this is ultimately about bringing people together in a peaceful resolution. that's what we need to be focused on. >> exactly. senator gary peters of michigan, thank you so much. we greatly appreciate it. >> thank you, senator.

>> thank you. richard, let's go from here to the middle east and negotiations for peace. antony blinken and other officials have said israel has offered a very good deal for hamas. hamas dragging their feet. maybe you can give me insight, why would they drag their feet to a hostage release and a cease-fire, knowing that the alternative is israel going into rafah? >> joe, going into rafah isn't necessarily, from hamas' point of view, the worst thing. israel would be the target of a lot of american and international criticism. there would be more civilian casualties. israel would become the controversial matter rather than hamas. look, hamas has never been about promoting the welfare of the people, of the palestinian people. they wouldn't co-locate their fighters with children in hospitals. >> by the way, the palestinian people, just for americans who don't understand this, there are a lot of palestinians in gaza who understand this. >> absolutely. >> who are angry at hamas for

slaughtering more jews than have been slaughtered since the holocaust and starting this war. >> absolutely. there were polls before the war that showed all the opposition to hamas. hamas has been running gaza for nearly 20 years. the israelis left. some of the protesters might want to focus on this. they left in 2005. hamas had, you know, basically two decades to show something for their governance. >> totalitarian rule. they haven't held another reelection. >> economically, it's been a fiasco. this is what they're good at, confrontation. that shifts the focus to israeli behavior rather than their own. but they have no agenda that's a positive agenda for the people of palestine. the problem is also that, you know, who are going to be the palestinian leaders? we don't see -- you know, the palestinian authority is peak, tired, corrupt, old. you have an 88, 89-year-old guy leading them. you know, israel is not a partner for peace right now. they don't have a palestinian

partner for peace. that is the sad reality. tony blinken doesn't have, shall we say, a lot to work with. what you have going on now, joe, you've got tony and others trying to bring about a hostage deal, and hamas keeps upping its demands. israel is trying to meet them halfway on this. you have the question between the administration -- >> by the way, israel has -- this is a really good deal israel is offering right now. >> yeah. they want this. secondly, you have the dynamic about whether israel goes into rafah. if so, when and how do they go? how big, how calibrated? you have interesting conversations going on between the administration and the saudis. basically, to go to the saudis, "will you be" -- saudis want a security treaty from us, nuclear help. the question is, will they then normalize political relations with israel like others did, and what will they demand of the israelis in the way of opening

up a political process with the palestinians? this is a multi-ring effort right now. i think the immediate focus is can you get a new hostage deal for a pause? can you delay or at least downsize any israeli offensive in rafah? >> what is the next step for the biden administration? >> well, i think the speech next week will be interesting in terms of what messages the president sends out, not just about anti-semitism but more broadly. i think they're desperately working on these three fronts, get a hostage deal, scale down on delay the rafah invasion, and see whether you can get the saudis to come forward with basically a proposal. what they want to do is have a debate in israel. what is the priority right now? is it to get a breakthrough diplomatically with saudi arabia? is it to go into rafah, whatever? the administration wants to put that there in the center of the israeli body politic. they want to force the netanyahu administration, the netanyahu government to have to make this

difficult choice. is it more important to pursue what i think is the impossible to succeed goal of quote, unquote, eliminating hamas, or are they prepared potentially to accept a normalization with saudi arabia? the administration wants to put that front and center in israeli politics. >> richard haass, thank you very much for being here today. >> thank you, richard. coming up, we'll continue to follow the developing situation on the ucla campus. police are trying to clear an encampment. we'll go through the bipartisan bill addressing anti-semitism passed yesterday by the house. "morning joe" is back in just a moment.

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wooooo! welcome back to "morning joe." live look at beautiful washington, d.c., where the house passed a bipartisan bill yesterday that would establish a wider definition of anti-semitism amid protests at universities across the country. we've been covering some of that live this morning. the legislation will give the department of education broader powers to crack down on anti-semitism on college campuses. it requires the department to use the definition of anti-semitism put forward by the international holocaust remembrance alliance when enforcing antidiscrimination laws. joining us to talk more about

this, the former israeli special envoy for combating anti-semitism, best selling author, noa tishby. and creator of the digital series, "uncomfortable conversations with a black man," former nfl player, best selling author, emmanuel acho. they're co-authors of the book, perfect timing, "uncomfortable conversations with a jew." that's the title. good to have you both. >> great to be here. >> thank you for coming back. talk about this book. talk about where it >> well, it began two years ago. after writing "uncomfortable conversations with a black man," i realized we would all be better in society if we didn't fight in silos. not just black people fighting for black people, women fighting for women. what if the white community fought alongside the black

community? what if we fought hate, marginalization. we have been penning this book for a long time because i wanted to educate myself and she could help me do that because i believe with educational becomes empathy. noa says yes. >> em manual noticed the rise in anti-semitism specifically from the black community way before a lot of people did, and he was, like, wait a minute. i'm a black man. i don't want to speak for you in that context, but he was, like, i notice this when jewish people this, and not when people from outside the community did, and he reached out and wanted to be a true ally which is what this book is about. >> talk about the unique challenges though, the horrific challenges that have arisen for jews across the world. there are only 15 million jews in the world for a reason, and

talk about the radicals who call jews white european colonialists when colonialists marched 6 million jews into ovens. >> the fact they were able to brand jews a colonialist state is crazy. when these people chant today, we want 28. we don't want two states, we want '48, they're talking about going back to british colonialism? i'm not entirely sure. anti-zionism is the new anti-semitism. this is what we're seeing on college campuses. >> talk about these kids on

college campuses. i call them kids because i'm an old dude. >> they're kids. they're barely adults. >> how did they get from chanting genocidal phrases from the river to the sea and a lot of them don't even know what they're proposing? >> they don't know what they're proposing. the thing that's happening on college campuses is three things we have to understand. it's not peaceful. it's not a grassroots because it's a well-coordinated, well funded -- all of them have green tents. it's puzzling, and the most important thing is it's not true. the kids that are actually protesting and think that they're doing the best thing for humanity, what happened is that they have been brainwashed by tiktok to believe that zionism necessitates the genocide of palestinians. they were trained, literally brainwashed to believe that israel is a colonialist state, and that's been happening for decades. >> what do you mean by tiktok? what are they seeing on there?

>> we know what's happening on tiktok in terms of numbers and what is being pushed on tiktok in terms of anti-israel and anti-semitic rhetorics. we actually have the numbers. it's insane, through the roof, and these kids don't read. >> run by the chinese communist government. >> one of the things that interested me about your book, and i want to address this to emmanuel, it is uncomfortable conversations we have to have. >> yeah. >> when i started talking with rabbi pezner and jonathan greenblatt at adl, they had to confront me. well, you were involved with some things we felt were anti-semitic. i said, i didn't say this, but i did allow certain things that i was insensitive to, and on the other side, they had to understand how some felt in the black community. these kind of candid conversations really test the sincerity of both sides of whether we really believe what

we say or are we just going to keep taking shots at each other? talk about that because there have been tensions, and i think some distortions on both sides that we need to put out front because usually the people that are anti-semitic are also anti-black. >> well, the first question hi to ask myself is what in the world is anti-semitism? is there a group that you can be anti? if there is, how can you avoid? she said, what is anti-semitism? it's both looking down and up at a jew. saying there are powers that be manipulating the world at large. i asked her, are jews white? america, if you are nonjewish, we perceive them as white, and we perceive things as black and white, and we have mid eastern

nuance. there has to be tension between the jewish community and the black community because jewish people are white, and so i really just have to wrestle with knowing so many things. i was drafted to the cleveland browns. the owner was a jewish man. the eagles, the general manager was a jewish man. i left the nfl, and my first agent was a jewish woman. i left that agent and the next agent was a jewish man. how can you tell me i'm anti-semitic? if i say jewish people are in power, when the titles were held of owner, agent, and president in my life, we just went there. >> i said to emmanuel the fact that there are a lot of jewish people represented in various fields, there's nothing anti-semitic about, that and that is actually true. it's when you start talking about power and control, that's when you move to anti-semitism which is why adopting the

definition is brilliant because it gives you the framework to help you understand what anti-semitism is to begin with. >> i want to ask you a tough question. >> it's all about uncomfortable conversations here. >> 1 in 4 americans have anti-semitic believes. why now and why throughout history do people hate jews? >> it's the oldest form of hate and discrimination that's still being practiced today. it's never going away and never has gone away. why to some extent? it's people hate the other. people simply hate the other and the jews has been this particular little group that has been the same and universal at the same time that has been traditional in culture, and throughout history, it's basically the jews are history's favorite scapegoat. >> why? >> i don't know why, but when anything goes wrong in society, the bubonic plague, covid, it's the jews. financial meltdown. it's the jews.

the last bastion of colonialism on earth needs to be taken down? >> in law school, i remember we were going through different legal codes throughout history, and i remember reading the magna carta. that's the greatest thing. oh my god. magna carta. it's the first time they started to tear power away from the monopoly. you have the right to do this and this and this, unless you're a jew. >> right. >> it is in the magna carta. >> it's been ingrained in the population and it's been historically no blacks, no jews, and one of the reasons we came together because we need the rift to recreate the relationship between the black community and the jewish community. it's been a schism and we refuse to play along. >> if i may speak to that as well, i believe oftentimes, you hate what you do not know. if we truly took the time to get to know one another, you would

have no heroes nor villains because you would actually get to know individuals. we have to take more time to get to know these actual individuals and stop living in fear because fear is a by-product of misunderstanding. it's a by-product with a lack of knowledge and really one, that's why we penned the book, but also why we spend time talking. >> and it's not a fun conversation at times, like, it's very authentic. it's very out there. we're taking and putting everything on the table. >> that's so great, and the new book is entitled "uncomfortable conversations with a jew." thank you so much for what you are doing. >> thank you so much. >> one mika, we don't have the look up to donny anymore. >> that's the takeaway. >> the takeaway from this incredibly important conversation. it's really great what you are doing. thank you. it's a very difficult time. coming up, we're going to go back out live to los angeles for the latest on the ucla campus. police have been out there for hours trying to peacefully clear

an encampment. >> it looks like it's calming down right now, mika. >> "morning joe" is back in one minute. , mika. >> "morning joe" is back in one minute go to 1-800-flowers.com. oh my gosh! wow! gorgeous! i feel like royalty. thank you. 1-800-flowers.com. happy mother's day. happy mother's day!

welcome back to "morning joe." we have been following the tense scene at ucla where police moved in to clear a pro-palestinian encampment on campus. scores of officers in riot gear faced off with hundreds of protesters who were barricaded behind wood paneling, shields, and other objects that served as a blockade. steve patterson joined us live from the scene as it was happening. >> reporter: mika, that's exactly what's happening now. police on multiple fronts pushing the crowd back. this crowd became agitated after

police breached the encampment. the encampment is probably about 500 yards to my left. it is in the far corner where they are releasing as you can hear, flash bangs every few seconds. this line formed when protesters came and tried to push in this way. police now pushing that line back. it's very dark, but we can see there is just continuous sort of scrapping in the crowd as police are trying to do the best they can to push agitators back. we've seen multiple arrests on scene. they've pushed us back for our safety. we're kind of being contained to this field. thankfully that hasn't surged this way, and they have been able to sort of maintain a lid on the crowd by pushing back in an "l" formation. meanwhile the encampment, it's too far for you to see, but it's over this way. if we come down the field a little bit, this is sort of the back end of protesters armoring this area up all day long. it started with the fence line.

then they built boards. the boards became shields. the shields and helmets became onto the protesters and they sort of geared it up for this moment, and we've seen this sort of fortification happen for the last i would say six to eight hours yesterday into tonight. now we're in a situation in which as you mentioned, police gave the warning. they have been on the loud speaker for the last three, four hours or so telling the crowds to leave. chose that chose to stay are now obviously being pressed upon. >> yep. >> hey, steve, can i ask you -- joe here. steve, can i ask you, did we have a similar scene that we had at columbia where students were -- the people who were students there were offered the right to walk away, and did you see some students leaving voluntarily before this confrontation began? >> reporter: yeah, absolutely. look. i mean, police have been transparent about this. they have been telegraphing this

and posturing. we've watched sort of the progression of the police being here as a security forcers making sure there were no more counterprotesters, keeping the area safe here for the people in the encampment, and the switch flips. the announcements come up from the university, from the police, from the state really to say essentially, this is now changing into an element in which you need to leave. we consider this encampment unlawful to a point in which safety is breached for students on campus. that point is very clear. there's a clear delineation, and all of a sudden police are wearing riot gear, they have zip ties and helmets and the choice has to be from the students as to whether or not you're now putting on a helmet, getting a shield, barriering up the encampment that you're in, bracing for a fight essentially. many students chose to leave. we saw sort of a mass leave not too long ago before all of this was happening. others sort of choosing to

protest peacefully outside of the encampment where they were holding these peaceful rallies to sort of generate support for the people that were going to stay, but then there are the hardcore element of people who chose to stay, and chose to fight back, and now they are fighting back. guys? >> joining us now, nypd's chief of patrol, john chel, he has had his share of this across the country in new york city on the campus of columbia and beyond. >> chief, thanks so much for being with us. right now based on the experiences that you and the nypd have had over the past couple of days, what's the first thing mores at ucla should do? >> well, the first thing they should have done, not let it get to this point. >> right. >> they should have stood tall like the nyu president did that one day and she took care of it. >> how? how? what? >> she ordered and asked to come in and take care of it and we put up barriers and it was a one-day thing. >> nothing was built.

>> right. here what should happen is the president should have said if you don't leave this campus at this point and you are a student, you will be expelled. >> mm-hmm. >> if you are a faculty member or staff member, you will be fired. i guarantee those kids would leave because they don't want their dorm material on the corner and having mom pick them up the next day. that would be the first thing. >> there are so many students that want to get into these colleges. >> right, i'm sure every college missed by a percentage point. my kids missed them, and they'll send a waiver and say, i'll come in and partake as a great student and relish in this. >> i will not destroy property. talk about, we have been reading about and jen talked about the student leader at columbia saying those are outsiders. we don't -- they're autonomous. those weren't students that took over the building. can you tell when you go in who the student is, and who the

outside agitator is? >> from doing this a long time, just from eyesight, yes, i can. if you are dressed in all black, i'm not sure that's a chemistry student. >> do we know like on the campus of columbia of the arrests that were made, i mean, have we been able to -- >> we're still filtering through 282 who came from columbia and city college. the last time we did that, it was would be 30, 35 are outside people. >> there you go. >> there's three things going op. kids are on campus because they think they're protesting the right thing. those are house rules. then you got students protesting who are crossing that line into hate speech. you should be expelled. there are the agitators outside, inside, radicalization. >> yeah. >> teaching them -- one woman -- i won't name them, how to barricade themselves, how the take out the cameras. all these tactics we had to deal

with. how did they get on campus number one? number two, what are they doing there? what is their overarching goal? is it something bigger universally? what about the nypd? >> that's what i'm worried about. >> the chief and i have been on other sides of the barricades for a long time, but you know that we are about an issue. what is being lost here is what is the cause? the kids in gaza are suffering while we're looking at agitators that have taken the focus off of what it's supposed to be, and i mean, many of us, and i'm fighting right now with affirmative action. joining kimberly crenshaw on "right to learn" about banning books. all of that's lost on guys that want to come in and violently disrupt, and i think one of the reasons that people like you and i have always had a mutual respect even though we might have been on different sides of the barricade is you knew we were there for a bigger cause, not us, and these people have made it only about them.

them graphics do nothing to help the people in gaza. in fact, it hurts them. >> so when it's property, and you're throwing things at the cops, what does this have to do with the point? you stand for things and we respect that, and we're on the same page, but this is our kids on college campuses. >> this is chaos. >> as a father, every time i stepped onto columbia, i tell you right now, i'm a policeman, but my kids just left college. i was, like, this is broken, with the way we raised our kids to a certain point. it was not this way. >> it seems there's a common thing, a universal theme in each of these campuses and it has to do with the reluctance of the school's administrators to deal with this verbally initially right away, and they very rarely did it. when i was up there at columbia a couple of days ago, the police were outside, just lying there waiting to be called upon. what was the negotiations like

if there were negotiations between the police department and columbia university's president and the office of the president? >> so we were on the phone with him two, three times a day trying to work with their process, but they're not -- they're not equipped for this, and they're trying to appease different arenas of their world. >> chief, can we just say this? it's very easy to attack the president. if the president is ben sasse in florida who i think did the right thing, he's got professors and others who will support him in education. let's just say while i don't understand the images from columbia or ucla, you know this far better. until my fellow conservative friends, that president at columbia was walking a tightrope because there are faculty members and the faculty senate that wanted to censure her who

were encouraging the illegal behavior. >> exactly. to your point, behind the scenes, can you imagine what she was up against? >> yeah. >> different people. it doesn't matter. there's money involved, right? there's a lot of things at stake here, so as they're going through their process, we just keep asking, what do you need from us on the outside? are you good? do you need this? they finally put writing what they wanted not once, but twice, and she was clear and concise, and i'll give credit. on the day we went in, we just asked him, and i asked him personally, keep seeing and negotiating. keep downplaying it as we prepare because we want to have a little surprise, a little element of surprise to avoid any type of confrontations and we did that flawlessly. the plan worked, and the plan -- we think of the plan, and we have a secure perimeter. we have five dorms with 2,000 kids in it that we don't want coming out to the campus, and i got the president to agree that if any children came out -- we call them children, but if they

con fronted us, they'll will be warned you'll get expelled and that worked. the tenants ran into the building and we had the building and that beautiful building inside destroyed. >> this is unbelievable. >> it's terrible. >> destroyed. and how does destroying that beautiful building help a starving child in gaza? it's -- it's mind-boggling. >> and a lot of students don't realize what they're protesting to be honest. >> it's the top of the hour. we're talking with nypd chief john chell. we're looking at live pictures from the west coast on the campus of ucla as police are detaining protesters and pulling down the encampment on campus. this is, what? seven, six, five. just before 5:00 a.m. on the west coast. it's 4:00 a.m. on the west coast. so at 2:00 a.m. -- >> she's very excited. >> two hours ago, police tried to disperse this encampment peacefully. we of course, here looking at

these pictures, raising the question as to why the encampment was allowed to be built at all, creating a threat and a danger to everybody on campus and also destroying the campus property. however, this is where we find ourselves, and police and the state police were trying to use loudspeakers to tell the protesters, some students, potentially some outside agitators is the phrase we're using to disperse peacefully, and if they did not, they would be arrested. what authorities got in return was having bottles and other objects thrown at them and chants "we are not afraid of you, we are not leaving." so in the past hour, authorities moved in in riot gear. they set off those loud bangs to try and help disperse, and that is what we're watching right now. it appears authorities are trying to execute this as

peacefully as possible, and we will be watching for arrests in this situation, and especially looking at who was arrested, how many were students, were there any faculty involved, and also outsiders. who are they? why are they there? and what are they doing alongside the students on the campus of ucla? >> and a bigger question, jen, which is is there a bigger coordination behind this? i talked about qatar before. people don't know qatar is one of the biggest contributors to college campuses in america. it's radicalized, a lot of middle eastern studies facilities, and is it qatar or is it other organizations? when you have this exploding all over, those are questions that have to be asked, and i must -- i must say also just everyone

asking politically what i have been patiently trying to explain to people that watch the show every day, and thank you for watching the show every day and think i'm too conservative. you should have figured that out 17 years ago. what they don't understand is this -- i disassociate -- the chief has nothing to do with this, and i hope this doesn't bother you me saying this. i'm going to get political here. for those bothered about us saying this makes no sense, they have to ask themselves, does this -- do these agitators and the violence and the disruption, does that help donald trump or hurt him? does that help donald trump in michigan or hurt him? does that help him in pennsylvania or hurt him in pennsylvania? if we don't care, that's where the split is. i do care. i do care.

i would be angry about this regardless, regardless, but for those people, if they're interested in the bigger stakes of this, again, my parents in '68 saw this happening on college campuses at chicago and they said, well. we used to be democrats. we're not democrats anymore. >> yeah. it is -- i mean, they -- you know, it's -- who benefits from this? so i don't know who my -- if it's organized in terms of the outside agitators, you know, think about who benefits from it, who wants to so dissent the united states. coming up, we go live to lower manhattan where donald trump is due back in criminal court in just a few minutes. will the judge punish the former president again for violating the gag order? we'll have the latest straight ahead on "morning joe." "rning .

donald trump will not commit to accepting the results of the

2024 election. in an interview with the milwaukee journal sentinel, he repeated the lies that the 2020 election was stolen from him. so we talked about this yesterday, and we were so -- i think the word is shook -- that we have decided to go back in way deeper -- oh, this is a new one according the alex. okay. so this is "the new york times." when asked about this november, he said, quote, if everything is honest, i'll gladly accept the results. i don't change on that. if it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country. >> this is "the milwaukee journal," and richard haass, people look to the united states, and have always looked to the united states. donald trump certainly changed that in many ways, but january 6th, as you've always said to me. it just shook our neighbors just

like it shook us, and now you have him once again, a guy who is a favorite in a lot of polls saying, i will not accept the results of the election. >> so yesterday was the "time" piece and today it's the "milwaukee sentinel." >> everywhere in the world, it was the peaceful transfer of power. the guy who beat him, drive down pennsylvania, and you have the peaceful transfer of power. what a great demonstration that is to the rule of law and accepting the norm. donald trump is saying, i only support it if i win because there's no history of rigged elections essentially, and second of all, the threat of political violence that is out there. i mean, we have 75 days between election day and inauguration. >> okay. >> that's when january 6th happened last time, in that 2 1/2-month period. that is a precarious moment for our democracy, and not only

distracts us, but imagine what our foes are going to think. >> right. >> if we are having a contested situation, and we are literally who have the return of political violence, or imagine, joe, you have several governors or legislatures saying, we don't actually agree with that. we're going to send this set of electors to washington. >> right. >> we could have that. >> and donny, that's the thing. the system did hold last time. the courts held the last time. the state legislatures held last time, but, you know, just like the "time" piece yesterday suggested, donald trump and people around him are figuring out how to subvert democracy if he doesn't win, and let me say that slowly so his apologists who will write this in an op-ed laughing, oh, they're saying donald trump -- no. donald trump's own words say -- they don't suggest. they say he will subvert democracy if he doesn't win, and

if he does win, it'll be worse. he will subvert democracy more. >> yeah. >> he will fire prosecutors who will not arrest his political opponents. he said it. >> he says what he's going to do. what he's going to do to your point, joe, is have the fcc report to him so he can control shows like this. he wants to bring the insurrection act back so we can turn military troops on his own people. he wants to weaponize as you said, the justice department to go after his enemies. he wants to put women on a registry in red states for abortion. >> monitor them. >> that's if he wins. >> so what you just said somebody out in the trump sort of stratosphere will put on a website and say, look at donny deutch freaking out, right? that's their ploy. that's the lie.

they'll say, i love "the wall street journal" editorial page. i disagree with them a lot, but they will have people, like, writing op-eds who will take what you said and lie to their readers. they'll say, look at the media. i've read more of this. the media going, you know, are being hyperbolic. no. all you're doing is repeating his words. >> it's his words. >> when we repeat his words -- when i repeat his words as a conservative, and i think you found out this past week, i'm a conservative, like, live by the law, whether it's some college campuses, whether it's at the border, or whether you're a president of the united states that lost an election. live by the law, right? i'm a conservative, right? you're a liberal. >> i'm not a liberal. >> you're a traditional liberal. now call them moderate. >> correct. >> now called a moderate. i didn't say progressive, but you're a traditional liberal, and we just read the words on

the page. we report it, but the trump right and the trump media will say, donny's ling his mind. they have trump derangement. >> i feel it every day. >> what did you just say? >> i just used his words. the final words he said and i talked about if he wins. if he loses, he will tell people to take to the streets with violence. he's telling you. he's telling us, so if he wins, we're in trouble. if he loses we're in trouble. >> that's why we're going next. so those comment that is he told "time" magazine about whether he is concerned about violence stemming from the outcome of this year's vote, especially if he doesn't win. he answered, quote, if we don't win, you know, it depends. it always depends on the fairness of an election. >> rev, are you worried about violence? every political person who loves

this country would have said -- answered that, and then said looked throughout history and said, i'm not worried about violence because i'm going to speak out against violence, and my people will not be violent. we will accept the results of the election. everybody says that. donald trump is now saying, well, it depends. >> saying it depends, saying his reaction is based on whether it's a fair election, but who determines what's fair? he does. he is spelling out i believe in an autocracy. i will decide if it's fair. i will decide how i will respond to violence. as someone that is running to be the head of state again, to say it depends in this kind of instability, we can't afford to have -- no matter who the candidates are. can you imagine anywhere else in the world this would happen? we would be denouncing that person that is trying to be head of state, and here we have it right here, and we're acting like this is a normal race where

you have one person in the race that could win. >> right. >> saying, if i determine it's fair, it's fair. if i don't, it's not, and violence, it depends on what i say. this is not what this country's supposed to be about. we shouldn't tolerate it. >> there's a stereotype of the trump voter that the media does. oh, it's people who are stumbling drunk out of their, you know, trailer park and, you know, shooting raccoons or something like that. no. it's bankers. it's lawyers. it's people with advanced -- this is something ann applebaum brought out so masterfully in her book "the twilight of democracy," which is the elites make this possible. think about all the billionaires who were, like, i'll never vote for trump. yeah, i'll vote for donald trump. they know this. they read this. they read that donald trump says

that there's going to be mass deportation. he's going to force prosecutors to arrest political enemies. he's going to execute generals that don't follow his commands. he's able to use s.e.a.l. team six to execute political opponents and he says, you can't arrest me for that. you can go down the list. he's going to be a dictator from day one. he's going to terminate the constitution. on and on. they've heard all of this. they heard what he said to time magazine a couple of days ago. it is -- it is a dark, autocratic vision of america, and these people -- these educated people with advanced degrees are the ones saying, yeah. i'll support donald trump again thinking, oh. well, you know what? maybe my investments -- or maybe he won't tax me 3%, not understanding that this is not just a threat to democracy, but this is a threat to capitalism. >> right. well, then that's -- that's the

thing that makes me think they will reconsider. >> they don't get that. >> they don't see it that way. >> they will not make that connection. >> they don't see how it can affect them negatively. >> they don't think it can affect them? >> they don't think it will happen. >> there are the 20% of people in republican primaries who still are not voting for him, you know? there's the people that say that they are worried about january 6th, and the republicans against trump, those people who voted for him twice, they will not do it a third time, and keep doing these interviews and keep saying this. it's like proud boys, stand back and stand by. >> look at the polls. a lot of swing state polls if you are talking about nevada, if you are talking about georgia, if you are talking about north carolina, they're not even close. trump wins. >> trump in september of 2020 -- september of 2020, take a look. >> will you commit to making sure there's a peaceful transfer of power after the election?

>> we'll have to see about what happens. i have been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the ballots are a disaster. >> you know, chris christie said that donald trump started in the spring of 2020, started lying, going, you know, this election may be rigged and he said, he could see in his mind that he knew he was going to probably lose, and he started in spring of 2020 trying to find an excuse for losing to joe biden. >> right. he's almost saying, if it's fair, it's okay, but if by definition, he loses, it can't be fair. >> if he loses, it's not fair. >> what about the business thing? why do people invest in this country? it's the rule of law. you understand that it's a safe place where people can go to work. consumers can consume. what business leaders are missing is how much is at stake that the comparative advantage of the united states and the american economy depends on the

rule of law being paramount. if we no longer have that, they are kidding themselves if they think they can flourish. up next, we'll take a break from politics with a new season of the hit emmy-award-winning season "hacks" with the show's co-creator paul w. downs joining us next on "morning joe."

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coming up, we'll go back live to california and the campus of ucla where police clashed with protesters earlier this morning. we'll have the very latest on the decision to move in on that pro-palestinian demonstration encampment. we'll be right back. demonstrati encampment we'll be right back.

deborah, your career's never been hotter. did you ever think you would be back on top? >> yes. ♪♪ >> yes! ♪♪

>> deborah's here? >> you're here? >> she hired new writers? >> you know what? she hired two which is actually a compliment, isn't it? she had to replace you with two people. wow. >> i'm not ready to see her. can you hold the door? >> that is a look at the upcoming long-awaited third season of the emmy-winning hit series, "hacks." the economy follows the iconic comedian deborah vance played by jean smart with ava daniels. joining us now, the show-runner, writer, and executive producer of "hacks," paul w. downs. he also plays her agent jimmy in the series. good morning. great to see. >> you good morning. good to see you. this show is so beloved, and people feel like they have been waiting for a long time to see for season three. did it feel like a long time to you? >> yeah. we started in '22, and there

were a bunch of delays including two strikes, and so it's been a really long road so we're very excited for people to see it. >> so for people coming back after that delay, just remind them where we find ourselves without giving away too much. >> sure. >> where are we in the story? >> so the show is about a vegas comedian jean smart and this friendship she has with her young writer, ava daniels, and in season two after a really great working relationship where they kind of revived her career, deborah fires ava, and so they go their separate ways and when we come back this season, it's been a year, and they're actually on top of the world. they're both in really good places, but they're not together, and so there's something missing. >> how did you -- you're the co-creator of this show. this is your baby. this is your show. >> yeah. >> what was this born of? was this from some experience you were having in hollywood or people you knew in hollywood? what was the seed of the idea? >> i mean, everything in the show comes from myself and all

of our writers who work on the show, but it came from us loving female comedians who we didn't feel like got the opportunities a lot of their male counterparts got. we created this character that was an amall ga nation of these iconic comedians, and we wanted to sort of tell an untold story of somebody who suffered indign indignities, but was coming back, and gaining respect for her along the way. >> jean smart is just perfect and you can't imagine now it's happened to anyone else in that role. was she the one you had to have for this part? >> i mean, we, you know, we wrote the show without having anyone attached, but when we got together and started to think about casting it, we needed someone who could be believably funny, a real, like, standup and deliver the jokes, but also could deliver on the heartfelt moments because there's a lot of heart in the show and pathos.

jean was at the top of the list. she's got everything. she's got the comedy chops and she's a good dramatic actor. she also has a great laugh and a great yell and great scream. >> you need that. we have a clip from the new season where your character, jimmy, speaks with ava about some new writing ideas. >> so i was wondering if you knew of, like, any open writing assignments that you think would be good for me. >> i have coverage from kayla actually that might be interesting. >> whoo! >> okay, great. >> they want a procedural operation. remember that game? >> okay. what else you got? >> they've done sot market research and they found that gen z thinks the animated spoon from "beauty and the beast" is hot and apparently can get it and they want something that focuses on his love life. like a spinoff focusing on the animated spoon's love life. >> love life. all right. give me another one. >> no spoon. okay. >> the love life of the spoon.

now i just have to imagine the writers room. somebody came up with that, and you were, like, that's it. how much fun was it to write that? >> because it's -- we're satirizing what is actually happening in hollywood, that was really fun and everybody had something to add. we had two pages of alts. there were a lot of other jokes that didn't make it. >> we need some deleted scenes. >> we do. >> there's too much good stuff packed into one place. i talked to other people on shows like this, and they've gone on to be huge hits and well received like yours, and you never -- you think you have a good idea in the room at the beginning and you get jean smart and you get the cast you want, but you still -- you don't know how it's going to land or how it will be received. how gratifying is it to win all these awards that you all have won and have people love the show so much? >> it is so crazy. it's really -- it feels like one in a million, and especially to have all the actors and so much of our crew recognized for their

work because everybody on the show -- it takes hundreds of people to make a show, and even if you have a great idea and you have a great cast, it still takes a village to make, and everybody is so good that we work with. everyone takes pride in their work and i think you can see it that they all really -- they're at the top of their game. we're really lucky people have responded. >> we're lucky you made it. it's such a great show. season three of "hacks" is available now on max. paul w. downs, thank you very much, and we'll be right back with more "morning joe." we'll b with more "morning joe." (coughing) next! stuck at the dmv, and i think i'm late on my car insurance. good thing the general gives you a break with flexible payment options. let's get you a break while you wait. what is this place? this is our dmvip. vending machine charcuterie? is that guy getting a painted license? wait until the driving test. now that's a park job! for a great low rate,

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the oil and gas industry in two decades. our next guest says that success in business by the way comes one pellet at a time. >> what? >> are you with me? >> no. i'm not. i'm confused. >> dan kilcoyne joins us now. he's president and ceo of -- [ bell dings ] >> mini melts! come on over, dan! >> what we got? >> come on over, dan. we got a huge birthday present for mika. >> what is going on? wait a minute. >> come on. >> you guys are -- i don't have anything. >> we have to get mika -- mika. mika, you sit right here. we need the lead -- are you ready? are you ready? one, two -- look. three. [ applause ]

>> oh my goodness. oh my god. oh my god. oh my god. you guys, look at the mini melt. >> we know cotton candy is your favorite flavor. we made sure to bring that for certain, but we have all our flavors here as well. >> how do they stay so cold? >> it's a negative 40-degree ice cream product. we have dry ice on it right now, but yeah. it's all here, and ready for you. >> how do i get one of these? >> joe arranged this whole entire thing. the thing with mini melts is we want to make sure we bring moments of joy to everybody. we made sure we brought a moment of joy for your birthday here today. >> so dan, just so you know, i was just talking this morning -- >> more. >> -- on "weekend mornings," she'll wake me up at 5:00 or 5:15, and i'll get her coffee, and come back, and when she was half asleep, she would go, i need mini melts. >> i'll eat, like, five of

these. >> i'll go back up. >> melts in your mouth. >> i'm telling you she is obsessive about it. >> is it bad to eat five? >> no. it's not. it's a dairy product. it's an essential food group for sure. >> the more you eat, the better, correct? >> correct. >> i eat a lot of them. >> she eats one after another after another. >> thank you. >> i'm telling you, this is -- >> you set me up. >> this is her favorite. this is her favorite. >> dan, is the business going well or have i helped? >> so you've helped us tremendously. cotton candy is now our number one selling flavor. we're in walgreens, 7-eleven, wawa. we've had the business since i've been in high school. we've been doing this nearly 20 years now. >> i have a complaint. >> yes. >> i love 7-eleven because i used to go there for my pocket

pizzas when i was growing up, but i can only get them at 7-eleven which makes joe have to go to multiple 7-elevens in our county. >> we have a lot of distributorships, right? >> we do. duane reed, 7-eleven and wawa and we're expanding. this is cookies and cream. >> joe wants one. >> all right. thank you so much. >> you know what else i notice too? i was at the sec championship game with my son, and there were booths there. you also set up a lot of different sports places. >> correct. you'll find carts like this in stadiums, zoos aquariums.

>> you need some in northeast maine. >> got it. >> washington, d.c. >> got it. >> we need them across the fruited plains. >> you guys got me so bad. we have to go to break. >> dan, you've been in this business most of your life. >> correct, yeah. since i was in high school. it's a fun business. >> obviously. >> you got me so bad. we'll be back with a packed fourth hour of "morning joe." thank you. "morning joe. thank you. >> might as well sing it. ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ ♪ happy birthday to you ♪ ♪ happy birthday dear mika ♪

♪ happy birthday to you. [ applause ] >> thank you. for all of you, what is your favorite comfort food? mini melts. i make joe drive to every 7-eleven in our county to get mini melts cotton candy flavor. i eat like four of them a day.

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did you like the minis? i stick with the cotton candy. >> we do this, and now mika wants her own. >> i do. >> we have a refrigerator. i think rachel commandeered a refrigerator for the office. with us, jen psaki and symone sanders townsend. we have a good one today. >> it's a birthday morning, mika. >> happy birthday.

>> thank you. >> on kristi noem's dog, we're going to break it down. >> there's going to be a confessional. >> personal confessional. >> mike, i feel pretty good in the segue department, pretty good at moving things along. i'm at a complete loss on how we segue out of this, the protests at ucla. is lemire here? >> that's how you do it, just dive right into it. >> much of the encampment has now been cleared. earlier this morning, officers confronted protesters. they moved to tear down the

encampment. multiple people were arrested. it's not known exactly how many, though. the university called the lapd on tuesday after violence erupted between pro-palestinian protesters and israeli supporters. ucla has switched to remote learning today, calling the unrest an emergency on campus. joining us, nbc news correspondent steve patterson. what's the latest. >> reporter: this is the first time i can talk to you in my normal speaking voice. we are here where hundreds of protesters have been camping for about a week now. now there are more press and police than protesters here. this thing has been completely cleared out. police came in hard and chewed

through most of the materials that were the defensible materials. the plywood, the metal, all of that was gone in about a matter of a half hour to an hour. then it was the process of removing the people. that was a little more difficult. we just kind of saw the last gasp of this protest a few minutes ago, the last sort of line of protesters, the people wearing hard hats that had fashioned shields and linked arms together in a last stand. it was so hard that police had to kind of pull them out piece by piece. we watched them do that. police were very forceful in making sure nobody was left in this encampment. it's not known how many arrests were made, but just our crew saw at least a dozen, probably more than that as tear gas hit the air and as flash bangs were

deployed. the loudspeaker will still periodically go off in case there's a straggler somewhere to let them know to clear the area. protesters still have a hold on the steps leading down, sort of an iconic part of ucla, still giving a rally, saying they're not going anywhere. meanwhile, this place is just a mess. i mean, look at this. this is just tents and strewn garbage and the remnants of what has been here for about a week or so. now, protesters all gone, leaving this behind. >> we had the nypd chief who told us, fortunately, there were not injuries at columbia. two minor injuries there, that was about it. any reports or anything you pick

up about any injuries there in the clashes? or for the most part, did we escape this without any serious injuries? >> reporter: for the most part. thank god. you may see police with what appear to be long guns. that is nonlethal, less lethal weaponry. they were using pellet rifles, using the flash bangs almost as a moment to break people's attention so they could move in more swiftly. for us and our crew, it was harrowing to hear that noise constantly. police have confirmed there was never a point where they drew a gun. if there were injuries -- and i'm sure there were in the processl yanking people out of a crowd, putting

them in handcuffs and dragging them away, but we haven't heard of any serious injuries. >> how many were from the lapd and how many were from the california highway patrol? >> reporter: not only that, the sheriff's department was here as well. i didn't see much in the way of lapd today. certainly they've been here and responded to the protest versus counter protests that sparked all of this off. what we saw primarily as far as the vanguard, the force that went in and sort of butted heads with the protesters was chp, california highway patrol and their tactical unit, kind of like a hot knife through butter coming into this encampment. i can't be everywhere, of course. there's another force behind me as well. that may be lapd. i'm not sure.

we have been sort of right on the front lines of the encampment. >> nbc's steve patterson, thank you so much. just fantastic reporting. we're glad you're okay and it appears that most of the people there are doing okay, doing well. jen psaki, you were white house spokesperson. this is an issue that is going to follow joe biden around in his campaign, especially because donald trump and people who want donald trump to win are going to continue to make this an issue. what should the biden administration do? i know you're uncomfortable doing this, telling people what should president biden do. any thoughts on the white house,

democrats generally when asked about this? >> look, i think there's a couple of issues at play here, clearly. one is what is going on at colleges and universities. these are not monolithic protests across the country or even at individual campuses. so, yes, we need to get to a point where students are graduating and there's maybe some relief during the summer. what are they figuring out over the next couple of months? campuses and universities are supposed to be places where people can safely, peacefully disagree. if you're in the biden administration, the department of education and others are communicating with campuses about that question, but you're also thinking about what we have some control over, which is, how do we bring an end, how do we bring a cease-fire in the middle east?

reverend sharpton was making this point this morning, which i think is so important. we lose sight of what this is actually about. that is what is happening on the ground. some of these students are protesting that. some of them may not know what they're protesting, and that's something we should discuss as well. if you're in the biden administration, tony blinken is on the ground. what can we do to get these hostages back? if you're in the biden administration, you're also thinking about no solution here is perfect, but where they have come to a resolution -- i'm talking about northwestern, brown university. there are a couple of places where the students have said specifics -- and this is key here -- divestment from israel. let's discuss what they want. let's figure out if there's an forum to do that, and let's see if we can put an end to this.

we're looking ahead to the fall where this could continue to explode if there isn't a better approach from colleges and universities. >> having these debates on campus are so important have, respecting free speech and student's ability to learn, study, to move across the campus, to graduate in peace. how do we do this? well, universities need to re-educate, i think, themselves on how to encourage respectful debate between different sides, even on difficult issues like this. kamala harris was talking about women's rights yesterday. she was talking about health care, talking about a six-week ban that has gone into place in

florida. that is so important and so pressing, as is gaza. how does the biden administration move through this issue, address it and then focus on health care for women, freedom for women and all americans? >> i think psaki is correct. we can see how the administration is planning to move through this by what they're actually doing. the vice president and the president have kept up a schedule. i mean, she launched an economic opportunity tour on monday in atlanta with a focus on black and brown communities. she was literally in florida just yesterday. i think i saw something before i came on that said she's going to michigan on monday. the president has been traveling. they are doing the work. this is, in fact, what is dominating the news coverage. i too want to bold and underline

what reverend sharpton said. i saw earlier this week one of the protesters at columbia had a press conference. much was made about them asking for food and saying we need humanitarian aid. okay. we've gone too far, the meal plan. i was like, we're getting lost here. at the press conference, i did not see or hear the protesters asked any questions about the developments this week in the negotiation deal, where it seems as though hamas potentially looks ready to accept what is on the table. israel is closer now than ever to normalization with saudi arabia because of the work that joe biden and his administration, secretary blinken, the vice president and cia director have been doing. yes, what is happening on the campus, the images are harrowing. there is a real conversation, i think, to be had about how we foster spaces, especially in our

higher education institutions to have this debate. there's a conversation to be had about administrators and making decisions out of fear and not thinking and taking a step and some folks maybe waiting too long and letting things get out of hand. let's be clear here that there are developments happening. i frankly believe that many young people on these college campuses do want to see a resolution in gaza. they would like to see a cease-fire. they would like to see the hostages come home. i think we need to talk more about what is actually happening and ask those questions and not get caught up in the imagery. we are talking about college students. college students are gen z. i'm a millennial. there's a range to people in this country. the protests are not monolithic,

but at the end of the day i think we can all agree that what happened on october 7th was a horrific terrorist attack on the israeli people. and the government led by benjamin netanyahu has acted to punish the palestinian people. i don't anyone thinks families and children should be bombed because of the actions of a terrorist organization. that is why what is happening in qatar is key. the administration, i believe, or the campaign needs to put the president in a position to face it so he can talk about this himself. he is intimately involved in the negotiations. joe biden has no problem telling

you what he believes. he's very clear about what he thinks and what he believes. i believe there is, in fact, a disconnect between what people think joe biden is saying and doing and what they think he believes and what is actually happening. >> i talked about the "wall street journal" editorial page. you read about what joe biden's been doing with some of the guest editorial writers there, what the "new york post" is writing, what others are saying. rev, it's wildly, wildly off beat that joe biden doesn't stand up to anti-semitism, joe biden is disengaged. it's just a lie. the guy has been obsessed about this since october 7th, obsessed. he, antony blinken, we can go down the list, jake sullivan, they have been working around

the clock, shuttle diplomacy from cairo. you name it, they've gone everywhere. because of that work, they have the saudis engaged, jordan engaged, emiratis engaged, still saying we are here, we will help with peace, we will help in gaza after this is over. and that's happening because they are engaged. these protests are not mono monolithic. a third of the people at columbia arrested were not students. they're agitators. there are also some young students that are palestinian, who have had family members killed through the years, who

have felt repression, just like kids from israel who knew people slaughtered on october 7th. this is really complicated. as you said earlier, it's all sort of blown apart when people start breaking the law, start destroying property instead of debating the issues of how do we get to peace, how do we get to a two-state solution. >> real activism is the goal. what are you trying to accomplish? i salute the students, some of which have been members of the national action network and come talk to me. i salute them that want to see this resolved. but in the middle of what's going on in cairo with the negotiations, you don't want the story to be you broke windows and a wall at hamilton. you do want to bring the attention, which the students wisely did at columbia, but once

you get to violence, then the story shifts. i think that is where some of us say, wait a minute, are there some outside forces trying to manipulate this a different way? because now you're not talking about helping children in gaza and innocent people. now you're talking about something else. i was listening carefully to what psaki and symone said. when they predict there's going to be problems in chicago for the democratic convention, problems in l.a., ucla, the mayor of chicago is a black man named brandon johnson. you want to impact the fact that there's a right wing there that would love to see problems there or karen bass in l.a. there are different factors here that we need to understand

soberly. the other last point i want to make that bothers me is donald trump went and did two rallies yesterday. i didn't see any pro-palestinian marches there, and he's more anti-palestinian state than anybody in this race. but trump is getting a pass while he's talking about bringing black rappers to madison square garden. let's keep our eye on the prize of who the real enemy of both the israelis and the palestinians in terms of a two-state solution is. >> the point you made about how this can impact the election, this elects trump in so many ways if it escalates or continues to do so. . i want to turn to the interview president trump did with "time magazine." this is how the reporter described his take-aways from

his discussions with trump. quote, what emerged in two interviews with trump were the outlines of an imperial presidency that would reshape america and its role in the world. to carry out a deportation operation designed to remove more than 11 million people from the country, trump told me he will be willing to build migrant detention camps and deploy the u.s. military both at the border and inland. he would let red states monitor women's pregnancies and prosecute those who violate abortion bans. >> monitor women's pregnancies. >> yeah. think about that. he would at his personal discretion withhold funds appropriated by congress, according to top advisors. he would be willing to fire a u.s. attorney who doesn't carry out his order to prosecute

someone, breaking with with the tradition of independent law enforcement that dates from america's founding. he is weighing pardons for every one of his supporters accused of attacking the u.s. capitol. >> people who beat up police officers. >> criminals, more than 800 of whom have pleaded guilty or have been convicted by a jury. he might not come to the aid of an attacked ally in europe or asia if he felt that country wasn't paying enough for its own defense. he would gut the u.s. civil service, deploy the national guard to american cities as he sees fit, close the white house pandemic preparedness office and staff his administration with acolytes who back his false assertions that the 2020 election was stolen. >> jen palmieri, that summarizes what the stakes of this election

are. >> taking away more rights, more cruel. he understands now what he didn't before. he said he wasn't going to be as nice this time around. he was going to fire people right away if they weren't implementing what he wanted to do. and on a day in florida that the six-week abortion ban takes effect, he then goes to michigan and talks about how it took a great deal of wisdom for the supreme court justices. calls them out by name and says it takes a great deal of wisdom to overturn roe v. wade even as he tries to make it appear that he has some different view about abortion now. and he talked about how people were very happy that roe v. wade got overturned. imagine what could happen in florida now as doctors and women try to navigate a six-week abortion ban. >> summarize the stakes of the

election. >> is it possible? >> we don't even have the time. for months now we have been talking about project 2025. the trump campaign folks have been giving it a long arm, saying, no, we have our own stuff we're working on, project 2025 is not what trump policies will be and it is not true. these folks have said that. what donald trump said in the "time magazine" interview and on the campaign trail is exactly what is in the project 2025 playbook. there are four pillars in the play book. one is about a personnel database so people can make their own profile so trump folks can go through and look at who they are. other pillar is a presidential administration academy. after they deem you were one of our potential people that we would give a job to in the government, we're going to tlan you up on these are the things you can do and how to subvert

the system to address and get done what president trump wants. the fourth pillar is the playbook. they literally write it out. this is not hyperbole. this is the playbook, this is the plan. this is the reality. >> symone sanders townsend, thank you very much. we'll watch "the weekend" saturday and sunday mornings at 8:00 a.m. coming up, the federal reserve will hold interest rates steady. andrew ross sorkin joins us next. plus, we are moments away from donald trump's criminal trial resuming this morning from a new york city courtroom. we'll get a live report from the courthouse in lower manhattan. "morning joe" will be right back. "morning joe" will be ghrit back

my conversation with jerry seinfeld and the cast of his new netflix comedy "unfrosted" the movie he directed about the creation of poptarts. i was skeptical going into this movie. mike, have you seen it yet? it debuts on the 3rd. i'm telling you it's awesome. there are so many surprises of stars who show up here. i wish i could blow the biggest surprise. i, of course, won't do it. you've got to see it. >> jerry, jim gaffigan, christian slater and sarah cooper. >> they're just all fantastic.

christian slater playing a member of sort of a milk mafia ring is just over-the-top crazy. >> the competition for who's going to have pop tarts first. >> they make this battle in battle creek, michigan. it's ugly. it's awesome. we're going to go to andrew ross sorkin right now. did you get enough mini melts? >> i got banana sundae. it's good. >> you made my day, joe. >> happy birthday. >> i'm really impressed. you really surprised me. >> i love you, sweetie. thank you. >> don't call me that. >> don't call you that? >> not on the air. that's like an off-the-air thing. let's talk about interest rates.

>> jay powell said we're going to sit tight for now. >> we're going to hang tight. >> makes an awful lot of sense. this economy, inflation, the numbers are a little hotter than they wanted. >> they're hotter than they wanted it to be. he desperately is trying to avoid increasing interest rates. his position is that he would like to lower interest rates to get mortgages down, credit card rates down, but i don't think he's in a place to do that. he's going to be waiting. it's possible he's waiting through the end of the year. >> that's a long time. >> yes. by the way, also makes it harder even once we get really close to the election for the fed to do anything. even though they're completely independent, they don't want to be seen as doing anything to help the current president, help the former president. as you get toward the summer and

fall when you might actually want to touch rates potentially, that's when it gets even harder. >> what does the fed need in terms of numbers within the economy to have an interest rate cut in september? >> look, he either needs to see inflation coming down, which might be that gdp comes down. he also wants to see unemployment go up. that's the perverse part about this. you only want to decrease interest rates if you think things are not as good as they want to be. it's a very unique conundrum. the economy is doing quite well. it's just running hotter than you want it to. >> the numbers speak for themselves. if we get to september and everything is slowing down and inflation's down to 1% or something, the numbers speak for themselves. i think they would rather be

seen as being too political than being seen as being late to the ball again. >> that's true. but if we're talking about the politics of all of this, it's also important to remember there are things like people's experience every day. do they think the cost of housing is coming down? are they feeling that beyond what the data is showing us? and do they feel joe biden is the person that's going to fight for them more than donald trump will? data obviously is huge. every white house wants good data they can run on and show what they've done in their time as president. this was true for barack obama when he was running with the economy recovering. it's true for joe biden and what he's done to help recover from the pandemic. what's also true is it's about how you make people feel. they need to feel you're the one fighting for them and not the other guy. >> andrew, bill clinton, when

gas prices went up in a political year, you know, he would freak out, because he understood. those are like billboards on every corner saying how well you're doing. you take that and, even more devastating, grocery bills. they're going to come down or they're not going to come down. >> i think you will see grocery bills come down. i think you're seeing it in some parts of the food ecosystem. the hardest part about this situation is you are going to see former president trump out there jawboning about how if he becomes president, he's going to force the federal reserve to lower interest rates. in the "wall street journal" last week there's an article saying he's going to remove the independence of the federal reserve or make a secret deal

with whoever the next fed chair is. president biden can't do that. you wouldn't think that's a responsible approach. >> can you explain what happens when you have a hot economy if you lower interest rates, just how dumb that would be of donald trump to do that? >> unfortunately, that would mean that wages would not outpace inflation and everything would cost that much more. his china tariffs, if he becomes the president his plans for china tariffs, which may sound good in some kind of protectionistic way are going to make everything more expensive and problematic. >> and something has changed. it tastes different. >> her coffee is burned. >> it's always burned, or it's yesterday's coffee. >> since howard schultz stepped

down as the ceo of this company, starbucks has lost $35 billion in market value literally in the last year. it's crazy. i think what's happened to starbucks is they're charging too much. that's a huge part of it. talk about inflation. they raised prices about a year and a half ago, and now they're stuck with these higher prices. they need to lower prices to make this whole thing work. the baristas had time, they'd talk to you, they'd write you name on the thing. it was actually an experience. you paid a premium for that experience. today the lines are long. the baristas, because the lines are long, have turned into human robots to fill the order as quickly as humanly possible.

most people use the app and take the food and leave and hardly have any human experience with the whole thing. the soul of what starbucks was is what's being lost here. the question is, does it move back to that experience? i don't know if you can get that back with the app and everything else. or is it an elevated mcdonald's? that is the question. >> i am charged each morning i am home, that my wife is home to go to starbucks and get her -- and i do it by mobile order -- a chai tea latte with almond milk. it's over $6. i almost died when i saw that. $6.15. >> after 17 years, i make it myself. i got a coffee maker.

>> they're being impacted by the issues in the middle east. that's a real issue. there's the union issue. some people are saying i don't want to go to starbucks because i don't like the fact that they seem to be anti-union. i think people don't like the protests going on in the stores around gaza. there's a bunch of things happening at the same time. >> cnbc's andrew ross sorkin, thank you very much. have some more. >> trust me, i will. thank you. >> i love my birthday. you got me so bad. coming up, donald trump's criminal hush-money trial resumed moments ago in downtown new york city beginning with a hearing on four alleged gag order violations, all involving donald trump going after his former lawyer michael cohen. we'll get a live report from the courthouse next on "morning joe." thouse next on "morning joe.

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the all-new trump shock collar. the collar disguised as a red necktie. >> saudi arabia and russia -- oh. >> the trump shock collar, stay woke! [ applause ] >> how are your mini melts? >> i love them. that was funny. i love them so much, only the cotton candy, though. >> cookies and cream is good. >> really you got me so bad. there's now a freezer in the newsroom filled with mini melts. >> it's going to be permanent. >> i feel so special.

that's my favorite snack, guys. that is it. i'm obsessed with it. let's get back to news. donald trump's hush-money criminal trial resumed with the judge holding a new hearing on whether the former president violated his gag order again. vaughn hilliard is live outside the courthouse in lower manhattan. what's the latest? >> reporter: good morning. just in the last ten minutes the second gag order hearing for donald trump has begun. of course, earlier this week he was found to have violated nine times the gag order placed on him by judge merchan at the beginning of this trial. these were alleged violations brought by the prosecution just last week. now, this hearing is going to be the moment for the prosecution to make their case that donald trump should be fined yet again and for the defense to make the case that donald trump didn't violate the order. what are the specific violations? two have to do with public

comments trump made over the last week attacking michael cohen as a liar. there is an additional one in which he made public comments about david pecker in the middle of his testimony, calling him a nice guy who had been saying nice things about him so far. the fourth one had to do with the jury, in which donald trump claimed last week that 95% of the jurors were democrats. so far the prosecution is making their case to the judge saying in part by talking about the jury at all, he places this process and this hearing in jeopardy. that is what this order forbids, and he did it anyway. he's already been found to have violated the gag order nine times and he's done it again here, making the case that donald trump is now repeatedly violaing the gag order and putting the witnesses in jeopardy here for this trial. >> thank you so much. let's bring in nbc news legal

analyst catherine christian. thank you for being with us. at least in northwest florida, if a judge told a defendant not to do something or told somebody in the courtroom not to doing this and they kept doing it, they wouldn't think about sending them to jail. they'd send them to jail, the second time, least. i understand he's running for president. by the way, he knew all this before he decided to run for president that these trials were going to most likely be coming. what else can a judge do if he keeps violating these gag orders and especially talks about the jury in a negative way? >> these violations happened before the recent order. he's not going to send donald trump to jail for these. he's limited. >> what about in the future? >> well, the judge is limited by the new york judiciary law.

he can reprimand him. he can do what he just did, which is fine him a thousand dollars for each violation. or he can, as the judge said, it may become necessary and appropriate under the circumstances to give you incarceration. so he can give up to 30 days. >> rev? >> as you look at the rules, they don't apply to someone as wealthy as donald trump. clearly, $9,000 to him means nothing. can the judge, by law, can he do anything short of incarceration, but that would be more in line with punishing somebody of donald trump's ability to generate money? >> the judge pointed that out. he said basically i wish i could fine you $150,000 because you're a wealthy person, but i can't. i'm constrained by the law. so the next step if donald trump willfully violates it, the judge

can incarcerate him or something less like a house arrest. that means you go from your 30,000 square feet apartment from trump tower to court and that's it. he can do an ankle bracelet. but if it's a willful, repeated violation, the judge should do what he would do to any other citizen and incarcerate him. the secret service will go with him. they can figure out how to do that. >> there is a sense that the judge is never going to do that to a former president of the united states, somebody who's going to be the republican nominee. trump knows that. >> i think that's why the judge gave himself wiggle room, because he says if it's necessary and appropriate under the circumstances, incarceration might happen. the judge gave himself wiggle room to see how much trump will take this seriously. >> that's a very high bar.

>> that is a high bar. >> he's going to set the bar high. >> two quick questions. the $1,000 fine, is that capped legally? >> it's capped per violation. >> house arrest, how would that work? it's not jail. house arrest, you go from here back to your apartment, and that's it. >> the judge would have to figure out the parameters. you can go to court and you can go to your apartment. of course, they will fight that and say, well, you would let a regular person go to your job. donald trump's job right now is to be on the campaign trail. that would be the response from his lawyers, particularly since they have wednesdays off every week. >> thank you very much. we'll be watching today to see what happens. >> thank you so much. we'll be right back with more "morning joe." ♪♪ g joe. ♪

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crowd. >> we're honored to be joined today by shanna, she owns a vegan restaurant. when we come here in a short period of time into milwaukee, we're going to try that vagan food. >> my favorite president is ronald vagan. he's the best. >> speaking of vagan, they're not vegan, but they're my favorite thing in the world, the mini melts. thank you for my birthday gift

and rachel, laura and sabrina, thank you so much for bringing the mini melts to "morning joe" behind the counter there. i want that freezer and the whole thing. >> okay. >> very good. >> you give me a birthday present, what do i do? ask for more. final thoughts this morning anybody? mike barnicle? >> i have a final thought. we've talked about a multifacetted number of issues this morning, and and every morning we have gaza, we have israel, we have ukraine. we have the presidency, the presidential election, a candidate going to jail. robert kraft has a full page ad in two papers here in the united states, "the new york times" and the "wall street journal" and the headline is bringing hate to anyone brings more hate to everyone, and i would submit that the rise of anti-semitism in this country, the explosive rise of anti-semitism in this country is something that few foresaw coming. >> and rev, i've seen you and

jonathan greenblatt talk about this for some time, and it echoes our segment, our book segment, it's important for people to get together. across political divides, across racial divides, across religious divides. >> and i think that they should both, all sides stand up for what happens to civilians, children in gaza as well as in israel and go for a two-state solution with no violence, keep protesting, but no violence. this weekend i'll be working with kimberly crenshaw, profession kimberly crenshaw and the freedom to learn, against book bans. governor desantis wanting to rewrite the history of civil rights, blacks, jews and everybody else. >> a lot of trouble in florida because of ron desantis running for president, right? book bans, six-week abortion ban. i'm excited that our president is giving a speech on anti-semitism on tuesday. i do feel like, you know, with

we talked about why doesn't the president speak out more. maybe they're worried about the left, some percentage of the left. he can't solve the problem in the mideast so he doesn't want to be heard on it a lot. joe biden at college didn't appreciate the vietnam protesters. he's a regular american, people hear from him on the protests. i feel like it's really important to do. >> yeah, people -- yeah, work hard, send their kids to school, and they do that not so they destroy property. jen psaki, final thought? >> i mean, as mike barnicle said, we just talked about a myriad of issue. on the politics of this, we should not forget that the abortion issue and what you referenced, joe, that quote from that "time" magazine piece, which they should be blasting out on t-shirts. donald trump wants to monitor women's pregnancies across the country.

all of these issues are important. i agree with everything everyone said, but on the politics, we should not forget the power of that issue. >> margaret atwood right there, what she predicted. >> and by the way, he takes credit for overturning roe. he's already done a great deal of damage. why stop believing him now. that does it for us this morning. >> happy birthday. >> oh, please, no. >> ana cabrera picks up the coverage after a quick final break. thanks, guys. thanks, guys ♪ i have type 2 diabetes, but i manage it well ♪ ♪ jardiance! ♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance ♪ ♪ at each day's start! ♪

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right now on "ana cabrera reports," donald trump's hush money trial just resuming, starting the day with a hearing on four new alleged gag order violations by trump, and soon the former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal will be o