2012. i'm going to get in trouble for saying that. >> i love the disagreement. that is good. i welcome it. alexi mccammond, cornell belcher, tim miller, thank you all so much for joining me this evening. really appreciate it. that does it for me tonight. chris hayes will be back in the chair tomorrow, of course. alex wagner tonight starts right now. hi, alex. >> i feel like the conversation around young voters is one of the most elusive things to pin down. the polling is all over the place. but, it seems like a problem, right? the degree to which it is a problem is exactly unclear but it seems like an issue that needs to be addressed. >> so important and the points that cornell belcher and alexi mccammond and tim miller raised his you don't capture every issue. it is important to stay

centered on what is front and center for voters, even if it doesn't seem like what is front and center in the news. it is hard to figure these things out. >> campaigns are hard work. thank you, jen. do you remember winning? >> winning. winning. i hear and i there. >> winning in what sense question >> just winning. starting to get the concept now? >> actor charlie sheen's public breakdown in 2011. amid struggles with substance abuse and public feud with his boss on his very popular television show, charlie sheen turned himself into a national spectacle by participating in a bronze of tv interviews where he claimed he was a warlock and that he had tiger blood and most of all he was winning. charlie sheen was not the only celebrity in the middle of a well-documented crisis.

>> now to the latest trouble for star lindsay lohan. she was arrested early thursday morning in new york and she may now be facing new charges in california. >> it is a new low, arrested again. seen here leaving the manhattan police station early thursday after the troubled actress was to attend for allegedly punching this woman in the face. just hours after being released in new york, prosecutors in california announce the troubled star is being charged with lying to police and reckless driving after this car crash in june. >> there was so much of this in the early 2010s, the voyeuristic obsession with celebrity downfall, substance abuse, a spectacle, thinly veiled descriptions of hollywood stars as "troubled." splashy pop-culture stories that all the reach of the modern internet but america's attention was focused on a handful of anointed celebrities who rose to fame in the age before social media took off. there were no influencers. they were just the stars whose

entire lives were documented in the pages of "us weekly," and " people magazine," and "the national enquirer". it was the height of tabloid culture. in many ways, it was that era of tablet culture that gave rise to america's first tabloid president, donald trump. remember lindsay lohan herself was an early defender of donald trump, tweeting him 2017 that americans to stop bullying trump and start trusting him. the reason we are revisiting this chapter here is that era of tabloid culture has become newly relevant in the criminal trial of donald trump. today on the 10th day of the trial, the person on the witness stand was attorney keith davidson, former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. mr. davidson is the person who helped both daniels and mcdougall brokered their hush money agreements with donald trump. it turns out that keith davidson is an expert in that kind of thing. defense lawyers today peppered davidson with questions about previous pay for dirt arrangements. here is trump attorney emil

bove. you have represented some clients who you help to get paid by charlie sheen, right? davidson. i have represented several clients who have claims against charlie sheen. emil bove. who you extracted sums of money from charlie sheen on behalf of, correct? davidson smiles. there was no extraction. emil bove. you took steps to cause charlie sheen to pay, correct? davidson. we asserted there was activity committed and settlements that were executed. then a little later, this happened. emil bove, "in 2010, you presented a woman named dawn holland, right?" davidson, "yes." emil bove, and "and dawn holland leaked information about lindsay lohan at a rehab facility." davidson drinks water, pauses,

and respond, "that is reported that is what she did." >> emil bove, "you helped ms. holland get paid for what i said, didn't you?" davidson says, "i helped ms. holland get paid. i don't recall. the implication of all of this seems to be that keith davidson, the lawyer, is part of some seedy world of celebrity extortion and that donald trump is of the victim here, just like charlie sheen and lindsay lohan. it is a weird strategy. after all, no one is disputing this case is about hush money payments meant to cover up trumps alleged affairs and painting keith davidson as some kind of extortionist doesn't actually change that. the fundamental questions here remain did donald trump authorize these payments and did he do so in order to help his 2016 presidential campaign? how trumps lawyers did try to

cast doubt today on trumps involvement in these payments by highlighting that keith davidson only interacted with trumps attorney, michael cohen, and never spoke to trump directly. emil bove, "never spoken to president trump's?" in fact everything you know about president trump's came from either tv or michael cohen, right ? davidson, pausing, "no." emil bove, "much of what he testified to today with respect to mr. trump came from mr. coleman, right?" davidson, "i have had no personal interactions with donald trump and either it came from my clients, michael cohen, and from some other source but certainly not from him." the implication appears to be michael cohen was not coordinating this with donald trump at all, that michael cohen took out a line of credit on his own home and meet these hush money payments just to help donald trump in a critical

moment for donald trump's campaign and for reasons of michael cohen's only, at least that is what the defense strategy seems to be. is a jury going to buy it? joining me are anna bauer, legal fellow" correspondent and duncan levin, former assistant u.s. attorney for the eastern district of new york. thank you both for being here. anna, let me start with you. the idea that keith davidson is a celebrity extortion is, that donald trump is a victim here, how did that play in court? >> there were some fireworks today after a few days of having these documents witnesses come in. i think maybe the jury was getting a little bit bored and some there was some excitement in court but it really did not land i think the way that the defense wanted it to. one reason being that even if davidson has had extortionist plots before, they didn't even come close to proving in any sense that there was anything like that here with respect to donald trump.

also, alex we had these recordings came out that even as the defense was trying to portray trump as a being left close to this, as it being removed from these deals, there were these reporting set came out in which trump was indicating that he did have some sort of knowledge, understanding of what was going on. in one, for example, this was new information that one of the other reporting set up and made public but one of the things we learned today was that at one point, michael cohen called keith davidson in this secretly recorded phone call and he said, you know, that trump at one point said to him, "i hate that we did it." we mean michael cohen and donald trump it meaning the stormy daniels deal. >> there is consciousness of guilt there. >> there are a lot of things

that were coming out. they were really trying to say donald trump is the victim, he wasn't a part of this scheme. in fact, what the prosecution was able to elicit with things that showed the exact opposite. >> i am having a hard time understanding, duncan, why it is material, setting aside whether donald trump knew about the payments or not. if donald trump is the victim of extortion, does that make a meaningful difference legally speaking, if you still paid those fees to help his campaign? >> know because at the core of it, keith davidson puts donald trump directly in the center of this conspiracy that the da office is trying to prove and for two real reasons. one, michael cohen didn't act alone. he couldn't even have authority to make these payments. there was a point where he was talking to keith davidson and he said my guy has been in four or five different states today. i can't get a hold of him. at some point, exacerbated, i'm

just going to pay it myself, which got to the reimbursement that was falsely put into business records as lawyer fees to michael cohen. the other reason this is important is this was about the election, this was not to cover up an affair. this all reached a fever pitch around the time the access hollywood tape came out. the trump campaign and these two women, stormy dennis and karen mcdougal were trying to stall their stories, which would have been devastating coming on the heels of the access hollywood tape. the deal that had been dead, which they thought maybe was being kicked down the road until after the election, presumably then they wouldn't have to pay the money, then became important to pay this money immediately. michael cohen: the banker and saying i have to get this done right away. this was all done because of the election. attacking him over the extortion plot, trying to make him look dirty. this may be related some small bits of embarrassment for this lawyer. it is true, this was a seedy

type of work that he's peddling his clients sexual liaisons for jobs, for many. it is seedy but it doesn't lend any legal blows. >> it doesn't absolve donald trump of what the da office is alleging. when you talk about michael cohen, i find it comic that the motivations they describe to michael cohen. the same, this is the difference talking about, that donald trump didn't have anything to do with this, michael cohen was acting independently and the reason he was taking out a home equity loan to pay off an adult film star before the election was because he wanted trump to win so he could go to washington and get a job. the defense brings up a piece of evidence which is a back and forth, this is an excerpt from keith davidson talking to prosecution saying, quoting michael cohen saying something to the effect of jesus christ, can you believe i'm not going to washington after everything that i've done for that guy. i can't believe i'm not going to washington. i save that guys but. so many times. you don't even know. that is supposedly like the

evidence. michael cohen enraged he will not be the attorney general of the united states is somehow evidence michael cohen was doing this of his own accord. >> commencing conversation, keith davidson testified there was a comment that michael cohen said that, i'm not even being reimbursed for this payment that i need to stormy daniels, which keith davidson, he did not say at stormy daniels but keith davidson testified that he understood it to be a reference to the payment that michael cohen made to daniels. even there, there is this idea that there was an understanding between michael cohen and trump that michael cohen would be reimbursed. we had all of these different moments that it was showing that trump had knowledge of the hush money deals and specifically the hush money deal with stormy daniels, which is what forms the core aspect of these charges. >> also, wealthy donors who want positions don't take out home equity lines of credit. i do want to ask you, duncan,

at the outset of this trial, i think there is some skepticism of whether the da office could point to evidence that suggested the campaign was central to all of this. they keep producing pieces of evidence that seem irrefutable. one that stuck out to me is the text between keith davidson and dylan howard, who is "the national enquirer" . the night donald trump wins, what have we done, oh my god. >> it was obvious to everyone involved this was about the election. this whole narrative that he's trying to get out of that maybe this was to hide his affair from his wife is just not true. there is no evidence for it at all. that text but then also you have every piece of evidence that david pecker testified to. all the pieces come together

and they are introducing michael cohen through his words, through other people talking about him and the order of these witnesses is not an accident by the da office. they are setting this up slowly so that by the time we get to michael cohen, who is a flawed witness by all means, it's going to be clear that what he has to say is a central witness here is supported by all the other testimony. by the time it gets out and michael cohen says give me a break, of course this was about the election and it is interesting the defense is bringing forth this ridiculous thing about michael cohen being despondent about not being the attorney general because that is the prosecution point, that this was about the election, this was about his role in the administration. it is quite obvious that this was about the election. >> what have we done, oh my god. the night that donald trump wins. i want to talk about the gag order, anna. there are four new violations that were reviewed this morning. the da is not seeking incarceration at this point.

there was a bit of back and forth about a joke president biden made over the weekend at the white house correspondents dinner when he made a side comment about donald trump going through stormy weather. trumps team basically said how can you back our client and not allow him to respond. can you talk about how the judge responded to that line of argument? >> trumps teams or committees he should be able to respond to political speech because he is a candidate running for office. judge juan merchan was not having that peter made the point president biden can say what he wants. he's not a defendant in this case. and, former president trump can respond to president biden. however, what he can't do is make attacks on essential witnesses in the case. these alleged violations relate to people like michael cohen, who

is almost certainly going to be a witness in the case. he also made comments about david pecker, who testified last week. i will say judge juan merchan seemed a little bit less convinced that the david pecker comment might be something that he would hold trump in violation of. there are also comments that were made in which he made statements about the jury. he claimed that the jury was, i believe it was something to the effect of 95% democrat. and, that was something that i think judge juan merchan really found to be a very clear violation. he didn't make a living yet so we will see. he made a comment at one point, todd blanche was struggling to articulate why that would not be a violation of the gag order and judge juan merchan set is there anything else you can add and todd blanche said i'm trying to make the, but it is

not a violation. >> i'm trying to sleep. >> judge juan merchan said yes, something to the effect of our training and i'm not accepting it . we will see again. there was no warning but it did seem that judge juan merchan was a little bit frustrated. i do not think that there is any possibility of trump being jailed, in part because the prosecution did not request it. but, we will see. i think it seems likely that a few more violations might be in trumps future. >> incarceration is something the judge laid out in his last order. who can actually know what lies in donald trump's future. duncan levin, anna bauer, thank you for your time and wisdom on this topic. we have a lot more to get to tonight, including ongoing attempts by republicans to whitewash january 6th and new efforts to subvert the next election. first, president biden weighs in on protests on campuses across the country.

new york congressman jamaal bowman joins me to discuss the president's remarks and what democrats need to do. that is coming up next. next. dh a replacement you can trust. >> vo: schedule free mobile service now at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪ liberty mutual customized my car insurance and i saved hundreds. that's great. i know, i've bee telling everyone. baby: liberty. oh! baby: liberty. how many people did you tell? only pay for what you need. jingle: ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪ baby: ♪ liberty. ♪ love you. have a good day, behave yourself. like she goes to work at three in the afternoon and sometimes gets off at midnight. she works a lot, a whole lot. we don't get to eat in the early morning.

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this statement is not from

the democratic socialists of america, it's not from the progressive caucus, it's not from the green party. it is from the college democrats of america. "the white house has taken the mistaken root of a bearhug strategy with benjamin netanyahu and a cold shoulder strategy for its own base and all americans who want to see an end to this war. each day the democrats failed to stand united for a permanent cease-fire, two state solution, and recognition of a palestinian state, more and more use find themselves disillusioned with the party." when the democratic party is at risk of losing the college democrats, it would seem to be an issue. republicans in congress are trying to capitalize on that problem. yesterday, the house passed a bill to broaden the legal definition of anti-semitism to include targeting the state of israel. the bill passed with bipartisan support but it divided the democratic caucus. this week, republican speaker of the house mike johnson announced a housewife investigation into allegations of anti-semitism on college campuses. it threatens to withhold federal funding from schools and could mean putting democrats in the hot seat on an issue that divides the party in

the lead up to the election. in this heated moment with what seems like a fracture inside of the democratic party, how is its leader, president biden, responding? >> in moments like this, there are always those who rush in to score political points. this isn't a moment for politics. it is a moment for clarity. let me be clear. peaceful protest in america, violent protest is not protected. peaceful protest is. >> joining me now is jamaal bowman, democratic congressman from the great state of new york. thank you for being with me here tonight. i appreciate it. first, let me get your reaction to president biden's comments today. >> i agree with him 100%. we want to protest to be peaceful. we do not want violent protests. i visited the columbia encampment last week and they were completely peaceful. there was a space for mental health support, there was a library, there was food, there

was water and they were crystal clear on their demands. they are protesting the collective punishment of palestinian civilians in gaza. they are protesting our tax dollars going toward the killing of over 14,000 children. they are protesting our tax dollars going toward the sending in of the famine of over 1 million people in gaza. this is what they are protesting and there's nothing more american than protesting injustice and war. we've done it since the beginning of our country. i also met with so-called pro israel students when i was there just to hear about the anti-semitism they have experienced and they told me it has been minimal, it has been overblown by the media. we have been uncomfortable but we don't feel unsafe. this is what i was told by them. my goal as a former educator, as a father of three, is to remind us all that columbia is an institution of higher

learning. it is a place for critical thinking, critical dialogue, critical discussion that makes us uncomfortable but moves us forward. our kids are not being allowed to do it because we are over militarizing our college campuses. to me, that is completely unacceptable. >> did you feel that was the focus of the president's remarks? it felt like he had zero tolerance for violent protest and order had to be restored. it didn't feel like a pay in to the pro-palestinian encampments. >> some of the images we saw from ucla and other places make it look like a bunch of disorder. the majority of these protests are peaceful. when you sent in hundreds of military dressed law enforcement officers and a college, that brings the disorder and that brings the chaos and we just heard reports that a gun was fired by a member of law enforcement.

that is the only gun that has been fired at any protest. we need educators and professors to do their jobs and create spaces for critical dialogue, critical discussion and we can't lose sight of what there are protesting. u.s. dollars going to a country that is bombing and killing and starving children. that is what is unacceptable. >> i do want to talk a little bit about the political implications of this because it is clearly something of concern. we read that statement from college democrats. it is really hard to get a firm handle on how resonant this issue is, how much of a liability it is, with biden and young voters. i will point you to the support questions were taken in the same month. biden effectively 18 to 34. nbc shows biden up one point pew research shows biden up 21 and cnn has trumped up 11 points. that is a 32 point spread.

nobody knows what some people are doing or thinking on this issue. your constituents, you are progressive, what do you hear about how much this is a make or break issue for the president among young voters in 2024 ? >> young people are frustrated. they are angry. they are concerned. they don't want trump. they want to the president to do more and say more. they feel like the president is not listening to them. that's what i'm hearing from young people. even before october 7th, they were pushing biden on climate justice. these are some people who has been and raised and nurtured in an era of social justice movements, from occupy wall street to black lives matter to know protesting the war in gaza. they are tired of the forever wars, they are tired of mass incarceration, tired of us being a wealthy nation without universal health care, they are trained, they are sick and tired. >> this is animated the

country. we are seeing it on television. >> this is what they are supposed to do. this is america. america is supposed to be the country that pushes for liberal democracy. whenever we are not doing our job as older folk, particularly in congress, young people have to remind us of what we are supposed to be doing. >> do you think there is unanimity in terms of embracing the spirit of liberal democracy and protest? >> no. >> how do democrats manage this moment? >> we need leadership. we need it from our leader, hakeem jeffries, we need it from president biden but we need every voice in the democratic party to remind the country of who we are supposed to be, supposed to be. we have never been.

we have never been a liberal multiracial democracy where everyone had a chance to thrive. that is what the young people are protesting. they are protesting militarism overseas and the killing of babies in gaza and they are protesting the militarized responses happening here on our college campuses. we need more protests, that are peaceful, to hold us accountable to what we should be working on in congress. >> it doesn't look like the protests are going anywhere, congressman. we will have more to talk about in the coming weeks. thank you for your time and thoughts tonight. >> good to see you. coming up, trump told an interviewer he would consider pardoning all of the january 6th rioters and encouraged maga rally goers to become poll watchers. we will unpack it all, next. n.

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i am extremely skeptical mike pence his life was in danger. i think in politics, people like to exaggerate things from time to time. >> i think mike pence would disagree with that, senator. >> a lot of folks in the democratic party act as if january 6th with the scariest moment of their lives. january 6th was a bad day, it was a right but the idea that donald trump in endangered anyone's life when he told them to protest peacefully, it is just absurd. >> it is just absurd. republican senator and trump vp wannabe j.d. vance last night said he believed the threat to vice president mike pence on january 6th was exaggerated. i guess j.d. vance didn't see the gallows impacted on capitol hill .

j.d. vance is skeptical the rioters were targeting vice president mike pence at all. maybe he didn't catch this part either. >> if mike pence came, we are going to drag him through the streets. the politicians are going to get drug through the streets. >> hang up mike pence. hang up mike pence. >> for the record, secret service agents rushed vice president mike pence to a secure location on january 6, avoiding a run in with rioters i just 40 feet. j.d. vance is the latest republican to try and rewrite what happened on january 6th but he is far from the only one. after repeatedly insisting the participants that they were not lawless rioters but political activists being held hostage by the deep state, this week, donald trump announced in an

interview with "time magazine," he would absolutely consider pardoning the january 6th the federal convicts. meanwhile, trump is repeating the big lie that brought those people out to the capitol in the first place. at rallies yesterday in wisconsin and michigan, trump once again claimed the 2020 election had been stolen from him. >> the radical left democrats relate to the presidential election in 2020 and we are not going to allow them to week the presidential election in 2024. we have to watch the cheating. keep your eyes open. watch the cheating. the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. >> it is not just trump and leading republicans trying to whitewash history. it is now abundantly clear their efforts at election subversion are not limited to the writers of yesteryear. trump is laying the groundwork for all of this to happen again. in a brand-new interview with

the milwaukee journal sentinel, trump would not commit to accepting the results of the 2024 election. if everything is honest, he said, "i would gladly accept the results. if it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country." fight for the right of the country. we have already seen what that looks like for donald trump. we are not going to, we are going to talk about that with ari berman, right after the break. break. which is why downy does more to make clothes softer, fresher, and better. downy. breathe life into your laundry. shop etsy until may 12th and get up to 30% off special mother's day gifts fresher, and better. that go beyond the usual suspects - but if she wants candles, our selection is lit. order until may 12th for up to 30% off personalized jewelry, fresh styles, original decor - and other things moms actually love.

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i am pleased to, this is the first time i have announced this, announced that our campaign is going to be leading a historic effort in conjunction with the republican national committee, the state parties and a team of the most highly qualified lawyers and other professionals in the country, to ensure that what happened in the 2020 will never happen again. >> that was donald trump in michigan hoping to get a few new recruits for his historic effort with the rnc. their goal is to mobilize 100,000 people in battleground states to ensure transparency and fairness in the upcoming election, despite the fact that there is vanishingly little evidence of any election fraud ever and especially in the 2020 election. but, anyway, npr reports trump's campaign was promoting the effort at his michigan family with signs on every port- a-potty and with an army of

people who had clipboards signing up volunteers. that is happening as many of trump supporters tell nbc news they aren't prepared to accept a biden victory as legitimate. what could go wrong? joining me is ari berman, voting rights correspondent at "mother jones," and author of the brand-new book "minority rule, the right-wing attack on the will of the people and the fight to resist it." thank you for joining me. you are my favorite reporter on all things relating to our elections process. i just wonder, what is your reaction to this notion of this massive recruitment staged by trump and the rnc to recruit poll watchers who are supposed to be monitoring ballot deletion, mail-in ballot processing, postelection campuses, audits, and recounts? >> feels like what the trump campaign is doing is promising voter suppression on steroids and to give a little context,

this kind of balanced security operation was illegal for the republican party for many years because in the 1980s, they sent police officers to black and hispanic results in new jersey to intimidate them and prevent them from voting. they weren't allowed to engage in this for many years and there was a consent decree that expired that allowed them to do this. this isn't every day paul watson. this is the candidate who tried to overturn the election, inspired an insurrection and now is trying to recruit people. this isn't just a bunch of old ladies standing around watching you vote, this is trying to intimidate people and target certain voters and say there is something dangerous happening with the voting process. >> in your book, "the effort to overturn the 2020 election, more so than any other event in modern american history, would revoke the extraordinary tactics the conservative, white minority would employ to prevent a new multi-regional governing majority from taking power." i would assume that most of this election chicanery, which is euphemistic, election subversion, that trump is

planning, would probably focus on hispanic and black communities, much as his 2020 election subversion efforts did. numbing the country as you doomed, what do you think are the particularly vulnerable communities for campaigns like trump's? >> you look at where trump tried to overturn the election and spread lies and it was atlanta, detroit, philadelphia, it was the next. what do all these places have in common? people of color in democratic populations. they are going to be targeting those same communities again and what trump is trying to do is he's mixing racism, nativism, and voter suppression. he's demonizing immigrant communities, demonizing people of color and saying something illegitimate happened in these communities in 2020 and therefore they are trying to prevent it from happening in 2024. what i argue is the overarching goal of the republican party is to try to succeed in 2024 where they felt in 2020 and to try to institutionalize the instruction for every means

possible. >> to some degree, there is an awareness adding and 2024 of what is possible. that would seem to be one bulwark against it but you hear the people who have been tasked with monitoring these polls, the election workers, the statistic is 36%, more than one third of local election offices, have changed hands since 2020. there has been an exodus of people who usually work these polls and an influx of new people. that doesn't mean it is all about intent on subverting the necrotic process but does it concern you that it could be a bunch of newbies running one of the most contested elections of our lifetime? >> and a lot of people who want to subvert the election have taken major positions, they have taken major positions in the republican party and they have taken major positions in election offices and this is one way they try to rewrite the

voting system. i changed the building was in key states after the 2020 election, they put election design the minors in key positions, a lot of people feel like because it didn't succeed in 2020 or even in 2022 in the state races it will succeed in 2024 but the election tonight movement is stronger than it was before. it is more organized, it's better funded and they know what they want to, was now in a way that was more seat-of-the- pants in 2020. >> as dark as that picture is, you also drop attention to the fact that popular elections are some of the most, the remaining levers we have to shape this country and move it away from minority rule to majority rule. i am just going to read a quick excerpt. "for years democrats of prioritized federal elections arrested once but they should look to the state of the most effective avenue for progressive reform, especially since state power is very likely to only increase, even as the federal system is stacked against democrats." this has to do with the issue of gerrymandering, the electoral college, and many other things. as much as there is despair

around elections, you see especially state and local elections as cause for hope. can you talk more about that? >> what i'm saying is the attempt to undermine american democracy has led to a fervent movement to protect american democracy. there's success stories. at the federal level we have broken institutions like the electoral college, the u.s. senate, the supreme court, a lot of interesting things are happening at the state level. in michigan banning gerrymandering, expanding voting rights, protecting reproductive rights. there's models to look to at the state level for places that seem really good can move from minority rule to majority rule. it is important because i want people to understand that all hope is not lost. places that would have seen like case studies for undermining democracy in the course of a decade can change and case studies for protecting democracy. >> she can has changed in 2018, laid the groundwork for votes to be counted in 2020. 2020. legislative outcomes that were fair.

we only seem to talk about states when it is a national context, but allstate battles are national battles with voting rights, reproductive rights and so many other issues and if the federal system is broken, we need to change that. i could take a long time, so changing the states is sometimes quicker. >> down is up, up is down. ari berman, thank you for being here tonight. the new book is minority rule, out on stands now. start coming up, donald trump has big plans this weekend including mingling with potential running mates at mar- a-lago.g we will have more on that, next. that, next.

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i give amazing sponge-baths. can i get a room? [ chuckling ] ♪ ♪ chef's kiss. much like he did today, we expect donald trump will spend tomorrow inside a manhattan courtroom watching testimony and his hush money trial, possibly with his eyes closed. this weekend, trump's focus will shift from his legal troubles to his presidential campaign.

trump plans to leave new york, temporarily, for his home state of florida where the republican national committee is hosting its spring donor retreat and special guests will be in attendance. senator marco rubio, jd vance, tim scott, north dakota governor doug burgum and south dakota governor kristi noem. this is a cattle call for vice president candidates. he just has to pick one. joining me to discuss this is a staff writer for the atlantic. could we start with jd vance and what you think his chances are? i do recall, i am old enough to remember that in 2016 he called him an idiot and loathsome person and this february jd vance according to the new york times told nbc news that had he been vice president in 2021 he would have allowed congress to consider fake collectors before certifying the election. if that is not a resume builder for being trump's pick, i don't

know what is. what do you think? >> i think the thing that builds his resume as a trump vp pick is how dramatically and shamelessly has day she has been able to remake his public persona in short years. this is something trump likes in perspective allies. a kind of pliable, unprincipled willingness to do what it takes to be on trump's right side. vance is interesting because he brings with him this zealousness of a convert to trumpism and i think we can question how sincere that conversion is, but when he is on tv, on social media, he sounds like donald trump. he is also close to donald trump jr. i think that matters. he has made an ideological project of turning trump's kind of ramblings on foreign policy and populism into something

that seems coherent and i think that could also be helpful on the campaign trail. >> that is no small feat. the alchemy of turning trump's words into coherent policy. kristi noem, another person will be at the retreat this weekend. christina made news this week for herself admitted, her memoirs, in which she recounts shooting one of her dogs, cricket. i hated that dog, noem writes in the book, noting that cricket had proved herself on trainable, dangerous to anyone she came in contact with and less than worthless as a hunting dog. so noem grabbed her gun and led cricket to a gravel pit. the press on this has been very unkind to kristi noem and said basically she has done to her vice presidential prospects what she did to cricket. do you agree with that? >> i mean it is hard to think of a more glaring case of self

sabotage than what kristi noem did. to be clear, i don't know that donald trump cares that much about cricket or this story but he cares about pr, right? stories about dogs, having a history in presidential politics of resonating with american voters pretty strongly. you can ask mitt romney about this, by the way. i think kristi noem, i don't know what she possibly thought she would gain by telling the story in her memoir, but i think trump is going to see the coverage and seriously question whether he wants to put somebody with such bad instincts on his ticket. i don't know that she is out, but i don't think this is helped her. >> i am not sure it is the instincts he would take issue with, it is the idea that people are outraged. that it is very understandable of someone has killed their own dog and, by the way, she also killed a goat later on. trump understands how that is a problem for a future vice presidential nominee.

do you have thoughts on marco rubio? also a man from florida and a man trump knocked heads with, but a man who in recent weeks has seem to want to curry favor with trump at the halls of the senate. both of them are from florida, so it seems like there is some actual hurdles, constitutionally speaking. but do you think beyond that marco rubio stands a chance? >> it's hard to say. rubio is another one who has made a project out of turning trumpism into something that he could vote on in the senate. he has passed bills that he tried to frame as nationalist and populist and he has been very loyal to trump, at least, you know, since 2016. he also, i think, this is a key thing about him and tim scott. he would bring diversity to a ticket in a race when

republicans are trying to make gains with latino and black voters and there is some evidence they are making gains there, so you can see how trump and his campaign might talk themselves into the idea that native spanish speaker, son of an immigrant story, how this could resonate with the voters. i don't know that it would matter that much, but you can kind of see the logic. >> just as a refresher, trump called rubio a lightweight, a total lightweight with a little mouth. a very nasty guy. worse than ted cruz in terms of being a liar and of course, he thinks he is little. mckay coppins, my friend, thank you for going through this strange game of pick a trump running mate with me. i appreciate your time and speculation. that is our show for tonight and a reminder, you can listen to every single episode of "alex wagner tonight" as a podcast for free. scan the qr code to listen on the go or search for