thank you all so much for joining me this evening. that does it for me tonight. chris hayes will be back tomorrow. alex wagner tonight starts right now.

>> wow, winning. >> starting to get the >> actor charlie sheen's very public break down in 2011. amid struggles with substance abuse and a public feud with his boss on his very popular television show, charlie sheen turned himself into a national spectacle after a barrage of claiming he was a warlock and that he had tiger blood and most of all that he was winning. and charlie sheen was not the only celebrity in the middle of ath well documented crisis. >> now to the latest crisis for star lindsay lohan. she may now be facing new charges in california. >> seen here leaving a manhattan

police station early thursday after the actress was detained under allegedly punching this woman in the face. just hours after being released in new york prosecutors also announced the troubled star is being charged for lying to police and reckless driving after car troubles in june. >> there was so much of this in the early 2010s, celebrity downfall, substance abuse a spectacle, thinly veiled hollywood stars as troubled. america's attention was still focused on a handful of anointed celebrities who rose to fame in the age before social media really took off. there were no influencers. there were just the stars whose entire lives were documented in the pages of weekly and people magazine and the national io enquirer. it was sort of thena height of tabloid culture. and in manyta ways it was that a

of tabloid culture that gave rise to america's first tabloid president, donald trump. remember lindsay lohan herself was an early defender of donald trump tweeting in 2017 americans should stop bullying trump and start trusting him. the reason we're revisiting is that era has become newly relevant in that era of donald trump. today in the trial the person on the witness stand was keith davidson, the former lawyer for stormy daniels and karen mcdougal. mr. davidson is the one who helped bothe daniels and mcduc broker hush money agreements with donald trump. and it turns out keith davidson is sort of an expert in that kind of thing. defense lawyers peppered davidson about previous pay dirt arrangements. >> you know who charlie sheen is, right? keith davidson, i do.

bove, and you represented some clients who helped get paid against charlie sheen. >> i represented clients. and who you extracted pay from? we asserted there were valid settlements executed. bove,ec in 2010 you represented woman named dawn holland, right? >> davidson, yes. bove, and dawn holland leaked information about the treatment of lindsay lohan, correct? davidson, it was reported that's what she did. bove, you helped ms. holland get paid, didn't you?

this is when the prosecutor says objection, the court says overruled. david, i helped ms. holland get paid yes. the implication of all this keith davidson is a seedy lawyer in the world of extortion and trump is actually the victim here like charlie sheen and lindsay lohan. it is a weird strategy. after all nobody is disputing this case is about alleged hush money payments meant to cover up trump's m affairs. and painting davidson as an extortionist doesn't fundamentally change that. now, trump's lawyers did try to cast doubt today on trump's involvement on these payments by highlighting keith davidson only interacted with trump's attorney, michael cohen, and

never spoke to trump directly. >> bove, you've never spoken to president trump? >> davidson, never. bove, in fact everything you've ever known came from tv or michael cohen, right? davidson, pausing, right. bove, much of what you testified about mr. trump came from mr. cohen? davidson, i've had no personal interactions with donald trump and either it came from my clients, michael cohen, and some other source but certainly not from him. the implication here appears to be michael cohen was not coordinating this with donald trump at enall, that michael con took out a line of credit on his own home and made these hush money payments just to help donald trump in critical moments for donald trump's campaign and reasons of cohen's own. at least that is what the defense strategy seems to be. is a jury going to buy it? joininguy me now is anna bower,

legal fellow and courts correspondent for law fair, and duncan lowen, former district attorney for the east district ofct new york. the idea keith dave ason is a celebrity extortionist and donald trump is a victim here,b how did it play in court? >> well, there were some fireworks today after a few days of having documentsw and witnesses come in.es i think maybe the jury was getting a little bit bored, and so there was some excitement in court. but it really did not land i think the way the defense wanted it to. one reason being that even if davidson i has had extortionist plots before, they didn't even come close to proving in any sense that there was anything like that here with respect to donald trump. also, alex, we had these recordings that came out that even as the defense was trying to portray trump as maybe being

less close to this, as being removed from these b deals, the were these reportings that came out in which trump was indicating that he did have some sort of knowledge -- >> understanding of what was going on. >> understanding what was going on. in one, for example, this was new information in one of the reportings that had been made public, but one of it things made today that was new at one point michael cohen called keith davidson in this secretly recorded phone call, and he said that trump at one point said to him i hate we did it, we meaning cohen and trump, and it meaning the stormy daniels deal. and so -- >> there's consciousness of guilt here. >> right. there were a lot of things coming out and they were trying to say donald trump was a victim, he wasn't part of the scheme. but s what the prosecutor was trying to illicit is show it's the exact opposite. >> i'm having a hard time

understanding why it's material. if donald trump is the victim of extortion, like does that make a meaningful difference legally speaking if he still paid those fees to help his campaign? >> no, because at the core of it keith davidson puts donald trump directly in the center of this conspiracy that the d.a.'s office is trying to prove and for two real reasons. one is michael cohen didn't act alone.id he didn't have authority to make these payments. there was a point he was talking to keith davidson and referring to trump my guy has been in four or five different states today, i can't get ahold of him. and at one point he said i'm going to pay myself. this was about the election. this was not to cover up an affair andco keep it from melan. this all reached a fever pitch around the time the "access hollywood" tape came out. rightes after that the trump

campaign learned these two women, stormy daniels and karen mcdougal, were starting to sell their stories. and that would have been deadly coming on the heels of the "access hollywood" tape. the deal they thaw was dead and kicked counsel the road until after the election and presumably they wouldn't have to pay the money, it then became important to pay the money immediately, michael cohen calling the banker and saying i've got to get it done right away. attacking him over it was an extortion plot, he was trying to make him look t dirty, which mae landed some small bits of embarrassment for this lawyer.rr and it's true, this was a seedy type of work that he's pedaling his clients sexual liaisons for jobs, for money. so it's seedy, but it doesn't -- >> it doesn't absolve donald trump from potentially what the d.a.'s office is alleging. when you talk about michael cohen, i find it comic the

motivations they ascribe to michael cohen. this is the defense i'm talking about. that donald trump didn't have anything to dod with this, michael cohen was acting independently, and the reason he was taking out a home equity loan to pay off an adult film star before the election is because b he wanted trump to wi so he could go to washington and get a job. and the defense brings up a piece of prosecution evidence, which is a back and forth -- sorry, this is an excerpt from keith davidson talking to prosecution saying -- quoting michael cohen saying something to the effect of jesus christ, can you effing believe i'm not going to washington after everything i've done for that effing guy. i can't believe i'm not going to washington. ino saved that guy's butt -- it a family program -- so many times you don't even know. michael cohen enraged he's somehow not going to be with the president of the united states. >> right. and also in that conversation

keith davidson testified there was a comment michael cohen said i'm not being reimbursed for this payment i made to stormy daniels. keith davidson he did not face stormy daniels, but he testified he understood it to be a reference to the payment that cohen made to daniels and so even there there is this idea there was an understanding between cohenwa and trump that cohen would be reimbursed, and so we had all of these different moments today in which it was showing that trump had knowledge of the hush money deals and specifically the hush money deal with t stormy daniels, which wh forms the kind of poor aspect of these charges. >> yeah, and also wemgty donors who wanto positions in the nex administration done take out home equity lines of credit. they're usually independently wealthy if they're going to make campaign donations. i do want to ask you, duncan, at the outset of this trial i think

there was some skepticism whether the d.a.'s office could meaningfully point to evidence whether the d.a.'s office was central to all this. one that stood out to me was the text between keith davidson and dylan howard who's at the national enquirer. the night donald trump wins, what have we done, oh, my god. >> it was obviously to everyone involved this was about the election. this whole narrative he's trying to get out oh, maybe this was to hide his affair from his wife is just not true. evidence for it at all. that text. but then also you have every piece of evidence that both pecker testified to as well this was all about the election, and now this is like a jigsaw puzzle, so all the pieces come together, and they are introducing cohen through his words, through other people talking about him. and theeo order of these witness is not an accident by the d.a.'s

office. they are setting this up slowly so that by the time we get to cohen he's a flawed witness by all means. it's going to be clear that what we has to say as a central witness here is supported by all this other testimony. so by the time it gets out and cohen says, come on, give me a break, of course this was about the election. interesting about the defense is bringing forth this ridiculous about michael cohen not responding to the attorney general, and this is about prosecution, about his role in the administration. so it's quite obvious this was about the election. >> what have we done, oh, my god, the night donald trump wins. i do want to talk about the gag order,th anna, because there we four new violations reviewed this morning. the d.a. is not seeking incarceration at this point. there was a bit of back and forth about a joke that president biden made over the

weekend at the white house correspondent's dinner whenma h made a side comment about donald trump going through some stormy weather, and trump's team saying how can you gag our client to not respond? >> trump's argument is he should bemp able to respond to politic speech because he is a candidate running for office, but justice merchan was not having that. he made the point that, well, president biden can say what he wants. he's not a defendant in this case. and former president trump can respond to president biden. however, what he can't do is make attacks on foejs witnesses in the case, these alleged violations relate to people like michael cohen who is almost certainly going toco be a witne in the case. he also made comments about davido pecker who just testifi last jweek. i will say that justice merchan seemed a little bit less

convinced that the david pecker comment might be something that he would hold trump in violation of. but then there are also comments trump made in which he made statements about the jury. he claimed the jury was i believe something to effect of 95% democrat. that was something i think justice merchan really found to be a clear violation. he didn't make a ruling yet so we'll see. but he made a comment at one plant todd blanche was really struggling toas articulate why that would not be a violation of the gag order, making this comment aboutr, the jurors, and justice merchan said, okay, is there anything else you can add, and todd blanche said i'm trying to make the argument it's not a violation. and justice merchan said, yes, something to effect of you're trying and i'm not accepting it. we will see again. there was no ruling, but it did seem justice merchan was a little bit frustrated.

i do not think there's any possibility of trump being skbraled in part because the prosecution did not request it. but we'll see and i think it seems likely that a few more violations might be in trump's future. >>'s yeah. and incarceration is something the judge laid out in his last order, so who can actually know what lies in donald trump's future. duncan levin, anna bowers, thank you for your time and great wisdom on this topic. we have a lot to get to tonight including ongoing attempts by republicans to whitewash january 6th and new efforts to subvert the next election. but first president biden weighsen in on pro-palestinian protests across the country. jamal bowman joins me to discuss the protest and what democrats need to do. that is coming up next. d what ds need to do that is coming up next new sensodyne clinical white

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it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! this statement is not from the democratic socialists of america. it's not from the progressive caucus. it's not from the green party. it's from the college democrats of america. the white house has taken the mistaken route of a bear hug strategy with netanyahu and a cold shoulder strategy for its own base and all americans who want to see an end to this war. each day the democrats fail to

stand unite for a permanent cease-fire, two state solution, and recognition of the palestinian state, more and more youth find themselves disillusioned with the party. now, when the democratic party is at risk of losing the college democrats, it would seem to be an issue, and republicans in congress are trying to capitalize on that problem. yesterday the house passed a bill to broaden the legal definition of anti-semitism to include targeting the state of israel, a bill passed with bipartisan support, but it divided the democratic caucus. this week republican speaker of the house mike johnson announced a house-wide investigation into allegations of anti-semitism on college campuses and threatens to with hold federal funding from schools and could mean putting democrats in the hot seat on an issue that divides the party in the lead-up to the election. so in this heated moment with what seems like a fracture inside the democratic party, how is its leader, president biden,

responding? >> in moments like this there are always those who rush in to score political points, but this isn't a moment for politics. it's a moment for clarity, so let me be clear. peaceful protests in america, violent protests is not protected. peaceful protest is. >> joining me now is jamal bowman, democratic congressman for the great state of new york. thank you for being with me tonight. i appreciate it. first, let me get your reaction to president biden's comments today. >> agree with him 100%. we want the protests to be peaceful. we do not want violent protests. i visited the columbia campus last week and it was completely peaceful. there was food and water and they were crystal clear on their demands. they were protesting the collective punishment of palestinian civilians in gaza. they are protesting our tax dollars going towards the killing of over 14,000 children.

they are protesting our tax dollars going towards the setting in of famine of over a million people in gaza. this is what they're protesting, and there's nothing more american than protesting injustice and war. we've done it since the beginning of our country. i also met with so-called pro-israel students when i was there just to hear about the anti-semitism they have experienced. and they told me it has been minimum. it has been overblown by the media. we have been uncomfortable, but we don't feel unsafe. this is what i was told by them. and my goal as a former educator, as a father of three, is to remind us all that columbia is an institution of higher learning. it's a place for critical thinking, critical dialogue, critical discussion that makes us uncomfortable but moves us

forward. our kids are not being allow today do it because we are overwhilterizing our college campuses. >> did you feel that was the folks of the president's remarks? it felt more he was establishing he had zero-tolerance for quote-unquote violent protests and order had to be restore. and it didn't feel like a pay in to pro-palestinian encampments. >> some of the images we saw from ucla and other places made it look like a bunch of disorder, but a majority of these protests are peaceful. when you send in hundreds of military-dressed law enforcement officers into a college, that brings the disorder, and that brings the chaos. and we just heard reports that a gun was fired in columbia by a member of law enforcement. that's the only gun that's been fired in any protest. we need educators and professors to do their jobs and create

physical spaces for discussion. and we can't lose sight of what they're profesting. u.s. dollars going to a country that is killing and bombing and starving children. that is what's unacceptable. >> i do want to talk about the political implications of this, too. because it's clearly something of concern. we read that statement from college democrats. it's really hard to get a firm handle how rezinate this issue is, how much of a liability is with biden and young voters. i will point you to -- these polls were all taken in the same month. nbc shows biden up 1 point, pew shows biden up 21 points, and cnn has trump up 11 points. that's like a 32-point spread. nobody knows what young people are doing or thinking on this issue. your constituents, you're a progressive, what do you hear about how much this is a make-or-break issue for the

president in 2024. >> young people are frustrated. they are angry. they are concerned. they don't want trump, but they want the president to do more and say more. and they feel like the president's not listening to them. that's what i'm hearing from constituents in my district. that's what i'm hearing from young people across the country. i mean even before october 7th, they were pushing biden on climate justice, right? these are young people who have been born and raised and nurtured in an era of social justice movements. from occupied wall street to black lives matter to now protesting the war in gaza. they're tire of these forever wars, tired of mass incarceration, tired of us being a wealthy nation and they're sick and tired. >> this has animated the country. >> but this is what they're supposed to do. this is america. america is supposed to be the country that pushes for liberal

democracy. whenever we're not doing our job as older folk in congress younger folk have to remind us what we're doing. >> how do democrats manage this moment? >> we need leadership. we need leadership. we need it from our leader, mr. jeffries. we need it from president biden, but we need every voice in the democratic party to remind the country of who we are supposed to be -- supposed to be. and we've never been -- we've never been a liberal multiracial democracy where everyone had a chance to thrive. that's what the young people are protesting. they're protesting militarism overseas and the killing of babies in gaza and protesting the militarized response what's happening here on our college campuses. we need more protests that are peaceful to hold us accountable towards what we should be working on in congress. >> well, it doesn't look like the protests are going anywhere,

congressman bowman. so we'll have more to talk about in the coming weeks. really appreciate it. coming up trump told an interviewer he would absolutely consider pardoning every single one of january 6th rioters and also implores maga rally goers in michigan to signed up to be poll watchers in november. what could go wrong? we'll unpack it all with mother jones ari berman. that is next. ari berman that is next (♪♪) try dietary supplements from voltaren, for healthy joints.

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i'm extremely skeptical that mike pence's life was ever in danger. i think politics and politics people like to really exaggerate things from time to time. >> i think mike pence would disagree with that, senator. >> a lot of feces in the democratic party, kaitlyn, act as if january 6th was the scariest moment of their lives. january 6th was a bad day, it was a riot. but the idea donald trump endangered anyone's lives when he told them to protest peacefully, it's just absurd. >> it's just absurd. republican senator and trump veep wanna be jd vance last night said he believed the threat to mike pence on january 6th was exaggerated. i guess jd vance didn't see the gallows that were erected on capitol hill. vance was skeptical the rioters were targeting vice president pence at all, so maybe he didn't catch this part either.

>> if pence came we're going to drag him through the streets. you [ bleep ] politicians are going to get dragged through the streets. [ chanting "hang mike pence" ] >> for the record, secret service agents rushed vice president pence to a secure location on january 6th avoiding a run-in with rioters by just 40 feet. now, jd vance is the latest republican to try and rewrite what happened on january 6th, but he is far from the only one. after repeatedly insisting that the participate wants that day were not lawless rioters but political activists being held hostage by the deep state, this week donald trump announced an interview with "time" magazine he would absolutely consider pardoning all the january 6th federal convicts. meanwhile, trump is still repeating the big lie that brought those people out to the capitol in the first place.

at rallies yesterday in wisconsin and michigan, trump once again claimed the 2020 election had been stolen from him. >> the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020, and we're not going to allow them to rig the presidential election in 2024. we have to watch the cheating. keep your eyes open, watch the cheating. the radical left democrats rigged the presidential election in 2020. >> but as much as trump and leading republicans are trying to whitewash history, it is now abundantly clear efforts at election subversion are not limited to the riots of yesteryear. trump is laying the groundwork for all of this to happen again. in a brand new interview with the milwaukee journal ceptinal, trump would not commit to accepting the results of the 2024 election. if everything's honest, he said, i'll gladly accept the results. if it's not, you have to fight for the right of the country.

fight for the right of the country. we have already seen what that looks like for donald trump. we're going to talk about that and trump's new effort to get his supporters to monitor the polls in november with ari berman right after the break. bei berman right after the break

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taking the release supplement, i noticed a change within the first week, and each month the weight just kept coming off. with golo, you can keep the weight off. shipstation saves us so much time it makes it really easy and seamless pick an order print everything you need slap the label on ito the box and it's ready to go our cost for shipping, were cut in half just like that go to shipstation/tv and get 2 months free what is cirkul? cirkul is the fuel you need to take flight. cirkul is the energy that gets you to the next level. cirkul is what you hope for when life tosses lemons your way. cirkul, available at walmart and drinkcirkul.com. i'm pleased to -- this is the first time i've announced this actually, announced that our campaign is going to be leading a historic effort in conjunction with the rnc, that's

republican national committee. the state parties and a team of most highly qualified lawyers and other professionals in the country to ensure that what happened in 2020 will never happen again. >> that was donald trump in michigan yesterday hoping to get a few new recruits for his historic effort at the rnc. their goal is to mobilize 100,000 people in battleground states to ensure transparency and fairness in the upcoming election despite the fact there is vanishingly little evidence of any little election fraud ever and spaelgs in the 2020 election. but anyway, npr reports trump's campaign was promoting the effort at his michigan rally with signs on every porta potty and with an army of people who had clip boards signing up volunteers. that is happening as many of trump supporters told nbc news they aren't prepared to accept a biden victory as legitimate. what could go wrong? joining me now is ari berman,

national rights correspondent of mother jones and also author of the brand new book "minority rule, the right wing attack on the will of the people and the fight to resist it." thanks for joining me. you're our favorite reporter on all things relating to election process. i just wonder what is your reaction to the notion of this massive agreement staged by trump and the rnc to recruit poll watchers who are supposed to be all monitoring ballot tabulation, mail ballot processing, post election audits and recounts? >> well, it's very frightening. it feels what the trump campaign is doing is promising voter suppression on steroids. and just to give a little context here, this kind of quote-unquote ballot security operation was illegal for the republican party for many years because in the 1980s they sent police officers to block hispanic precincts in new jersey to intimidate and prevent from

voting. there was a consent decree that expired that allowed them to do this. this is a candidate that tried to overturn an election, inspired insurrection and tried to recruit people. this isn't a bunch of old ladies standing around to watch you vote. >> you say certain voters. in your book i'll read a quote, the effort to overturn the 2020 election more so than any event in modern american history would reveal the extraordinary tactics the country's conservative white minority would employ to attempt to prevent a new multiracial majority from taking power. i would assume that most of this election shicannery, which is euphemistic election subversion that trump is planning would probably focus on hispanic and black communities much as his 2020 election subversion efforts did. knowing the country as you do, what do you think are the particularly vulnerable communities for campaigns like

trumps? >> you just look where trump tried to overturn the election and lies about the election and it was atlanta, it was detroit, philadelphia, and phoenix. what do all these places have in common? >> people of color. >> people of color and large democratic populations. and they weren't very coy about this. they're going to be targeting those same communities again and he's demonizing immigrant communities, demonizing people of color and saying something legitimate happened in 2020 and they're trying to prevent it from happening again in 2024. what i argue is the overarping goal of the republican party is try to succeed in 2024 where they failed in 2020 and try to institutionallize the election to every degree possible. >> to some degree there's awareness heading into 2024 of what's possible. that would seem one bulwark but then you care about the people tasked traditionally with monitoring these polled election

workers 36% more than a third of local election offices have changed hands since 2020. there's been an exodus of people who work these polls and an influx of new people. that's not it say there's an attempt to subvert the democratic process, but does it concern you there could be a bunch of newbies running one of the most contested elections of our lifetimes? >> and a lot of people who want to subvert our elections have taken positions, they've taken positions in major election offices and this is one way they tried to rewrite the voting system. they changed the voting laws in key states after the 2020 election, put all these election deniers in key positions, put all these anti-democracy candidates on the ballot. i think a lot of people feel it didn't succeed in 2020 or 2022 in the state races, won't succeed in 2024. it's better organized, it's better funded, and they know what they want to accomplish

now. >> well, as dark as that picture is, you also draw attention to the fact that elections, popular elections are actually some of the most -- the remaining levers we have to really shape this country and move it away from minority rule to majority rule, i'm going to read a quick excerpt from an op-ed in "the new york times" today. for years democrats have prioritized federal elections over state ones, but they should look to the states as the most effective avenue for progressive reform especially since state power is very likely to only increase even as the federal system is stacked against democrats. this has to do with the issue of gerrymandering, electoral college and other things. as much as there's despair around elections, you also see state elections as cause for hope. >> the attempt to undermine democracy has led to equally fervent process to protect democracy. a lot of interesting things are

happening at the state level like in michigan, for example, banning gerrymandering, expanding voting rights, protecting reproductive rights. there's models we can look to at the state level for how places that seem seemingly rigged can move from minority rule to majority rule. i think that's important because i want people to understand that all hope is not lost, that places that would have seen like case studies for undermining democracy in the course of a democracy can protect. >> and michigan's change lades the groundwork for michigan votes to be counted fairly in 2020, right? >> exactly and for the michigan legislature to flip in 2022 when the popular vote led to outcomes that were fair. there's really important state politics i think often get overlooked. we only seem to talk about the states when it's a national context, right? but all state battles are national battles with voting rights, reproductive rights and so many other issues. if the federal system is broken we need to change that.

that could potentially take a long time, so changing the states is sometimes a lot quicker. >> democrats all for state rights. down is up, up is down. we live on earth one and sometimes earth two. the new book is "minority rule." it is out on stands now. coming up donald trump has big plans this weekend including mingling with potential running mates down at mar-a-lago. we'll have more on that coming up next. coming up next.

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this generation is so dramatic! move with xfinity. mump like he did today, we expect donald trump will spend tomorrow inside a manhattan courtroom watching witness testimony in his criminal hush money trial possibly with his eyes closed. but this weekend trump's focus will reportedly shift from his legal troubles to his presidential campaign. trump plans to leave new york at least temporarily for his home state of florida where the republican national committee is hosting its spring donor retreat and some special guests will be in attendance, senators marco rubio, j.d. vance, tim scott,

north dakota governor doug bergman and south dakota governor kristi noem. joining me now to discuss all this is staff writer for the atlantic. could we please start with j.d. vance and what you think his chances are? i'm old enough to recall in 2016 j.d. vance mocked trump i think he called him an idiot and loathsome person. and this february j.d. vance according to "the new york times" told abc news had he been vice president in 2021 he would have allowed congress to consider fake electors before certifying the election. if that is not a résumé builder for being trump's vice presidential pick i don't know what is. what do you think? >> i actually think the thing that build his résumé as a trump vp pick is just how dramatically and shamelessly he has been to

remake his persona in just a few short years. this is something trump actually likes in prospective allies is a kind of pliable unprincipled willingness to do what it takes to be on trump's right side. vance is interesting because he brings with him the zealousness of a convert to trumpism, right? i think we can question how sincere that conversion is, but he really is -- when he's on tv, when he's on social media, he sounds like donald trump. he's also close to donald trump jr. i think that matters. and he's made an ideological project of turning trump's kind of ramlings on foreign policy and populism into something that seems coherent, and i think that can also be helpful on the campaign trail. >> that is no small feat. the alchemy of turning trump's words into a coherent policy. kristi noem, another person that's going to be down at this

retreat this weekend. kristi noem has made some news this week for the self-admitted -- her memoir in which she recounts shooting one of her dogs, cricket. i hated that dog, noem writes in her book, dangerous to anyone she came in contact with and less than worthless as a hunting dog. so noem got her gun and then led cricket to a gravel pit. the press on this has been very unkind to kristi noem and said basically she has done to her vice presidential prospects what she did to cricket. do you agree with that? >> i mean it is hard to think of a more glaring case of self-sabotage than what kristi noem did here. to be clear i don't know donald trump cares that much about cricket or the story, but he cares about pr, right? and, you know, stories about dogs have a history in our

presidential politics of resonating with american voters pretty strongly. and you can ask mitt romney about this, by the way. i think kristi noem -- i don't know what she possibly thought she would gain by telling this story in her memoir, but i think trump is going to see the coverage here is seriously question whether he wants to put somebody with such bad instincts on his ticket. i don't know that she's out, but i don't think this helped her. >> i would even say i'm not sure it's the instincts he would take issue with, the idea people are outraged -- it's very understandable someone has killed their own dog, and by the way she also killed a goat later on. trump understands how that's a problem for a potential vice presidential nominee. do you have thoughts on marco rob ye inalso a man from florida, also a man trump knocked heads with, but a man in recent weeks has seemed to want to curry favor with trump at least from the halls of the senate. both of them are from florida, so it seems like there's some

sort of actual hurdles, state constitutionally speaking, but do you think beyond that marco rubio stands a chance? >> hard to say. rubio has -- is another one who's kind of made a project out of turning trumpism to something -- into something he could vote on in the senate. he's passed bills that he's trying to frame as kind of nationalist and popialist, and he's been very loyal to trump at least since 2016. this is key thing about him and tim scott is he would bring diversity to a ticket in a race where republicans are trying to make gains with latino and black voters. and there's evidence they are making gains there, so you can see how trump and his campaign aides might talk themselves into the idea rubios can speak fluent spanish, has kind of an

immigrant story, how this could resonate with the voters. i don't actually know if it would matter or help that much, but you can see the logic there. >> just a rerefresher trump has called rubio a total lightweight with a little mouth, he's a nasty guy, he's worse than ted cruz in being a liar. and of course he thinks he's little. mckay coppens, myself, thank you for going through this strange game of pick a trump winning mate with me. appreciate your time and your speculation. that is our show for tonight. and a reminder you can listen to every single episode of alex wagner tonight as a podcast for free. you can scan the qr code on your screen to listen on the go or search for alex wagner tonight wherever you get your podcasts. "way too early" with jonathan lemire is coming up next. we are not an authoritarian nation where we silence people or squash dse.