i left my book in san francisco, or it will next week. i will be in san francisco to discuss my new book, small acts of courage, tuesday, may 14th at

12:00 p.m. pacific time at the commonwealth club. that is tonight's last word. "the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle" begins right now. tonight, michael cohen gets called out. what the judge in donald trump's trial is saying about a star witness out of his testimony next week. a new report from the state department criticizing the war in gaza as israel prepares to invade rough al appeared and trump famously does not like spending money. but what happens when his campaign starts cutting corners? why republicans are sounding the alarm. as the 11th hour gets underway this friday night. good evening. i am katie phang in for stephanie ruhle. we are 15 days into the trump

hush money trial. with stormy daniels done testifying comedy 15 was mostly about records. but things will get heated again next week . prosecutors revealing that their star witness will take the stand on monday and face off against his former boss. my colleague has more. >> reporter: tonight, nbc news learned from multiple sources that prosecutors will call their star witness on monday. he called himself donald trump's excerpt here now a vocal trump critic. cohen unleashing on his old boss in his book and on social media. spotted online this week wearing a t-shirt depicting mr. trump behind bars. the judge today directing prosecutors to inform cohen that the judge is asking him to refrain from making any statements about the case or mr. trump. but is not placing a gag order on cohen. mr. trump remains under one, barring him from attacking witnesses and the jury. >> it is a disgrace. there is no case, there is no crime. no crime. they failed to show a crime.

>> reporter: cohen is a critical witness for the prosecution as a jury has now read his text messages, heard his voice , and seen evidence that he paid a stormy daniels $130,000, just days before the 2016 election so she could not derail the campaign. the defense said her story of sexual relations with mr. trump was false, a shakedown for money, brokered by cohen, making his testimony and credibility on the stand essential. mr. trump has pled not guilty to the charges of illegally disguising his rivers and trucks to cohen, his former attorney, as legal expenses to cover his tracks. the face-off between the gop nominee and cohen is likely to be one of the most dramatic of the trial. cohen comes with baggage, including previous convictions for campaign-finance violations and lying under oath. meanwhile today, the jury is hearing more from -- who set aside the oval office and confirmed mr. trump met with cohen at the white house in

2017. prosecutors say they devised their reimbursement game there. but she testified the former president signed checks without reviewing them first, contrary to what mr. said -- mr. trump said in his book and other witnesses that at trial. >> with that, let's bring in our leadoff panel, catherine christian. she is an nbc news legal analyst and criminal defense attorney daniel ceballos and hayes brown, writer and editor for msnbc.com. thanks to all of you for getting us started this hour. catherine, i will start with you. let's start with the fact that today did not include necessarily, quote / unquote, murky names or hollywood testimony. but as we know as former prosecutors and trial lawyers, it is the details that matter. we got that through records. we have custodians of records that were coming from at&t and verizon, and there was sometime that was taken in front of the jury to get these records and

enter them into evidence. you think the jury will be able to appreciate the nuances about having these records and once they go into the jury room and they are able to see the evidence? >> they will understand it monday when michael cohen testifies and testifies about phone calls that he made, phone calls that he received, text messages. so they will understand why that boring stuff was really, really important. and it is. it is the most important part of this case, the records. the 11 checks, the invoices, ledger entries. those are the 34 counts of falsifying business records that donald trump is charged with. so as you said, the details are important. star, that is very interesting, but that is not what this case is about. >> reporter: hayes, to kathryn's point, there was what i felt like was the highlight of the day. the summary that was entered into evidence. that summary, i thought, for those that had been critical

about the detour, perhaps, as you would call it, that was taken with stormy daniels yesterday, the summary that was allowed to be entered into evidence that the jury will have in its possession linked the 34 individual felony counts to the specific invoices, general ledger entries, and checks that were signed by donald trump, that were issued by the trump organization, in terms of, excuse me, the donald trump revocable trust account in the donald trump personal account. do you think that the distilling of the information made sense for the prosecution to do at this time, coming on the heels as big as something as stormy daniels's testimony? >> absolutely. it was important for the over arcing narrative. to establish with stormy daniels why these payments existed in the first place, and then use this evidence to lay out the groundwork. here is the connection, here are the connection points between the scandalous testimony you just heard and all of this a boring but necessary stuff, to show what exactly this crime was. he showed the clip at the

beginning of the hour of trump claiming there was no crime, there is no crime. this is the crime. of him falsifying his business records to cover up these payments. and i feel like the fact that it was necessary for him to cover his track is something that the jury understands. they understand the idea of having to, like, hide evidence of a crime. this is the prosecution laying out, here is how all of this fits together. this is really important that it was done at this stage before i go cohen testifies to really wrap it all up. >> reporter: danny, i need you to put your criminal defense attorney had on. i know it is not exactly what you do. i want to put you in this particular spot in terms of the question. last night , former federal prosecutor that writes for politico, he and i got into a bit of a back and forth about his estimation that he does not think that the prosecution has

even crossed the finish line yet when it comes to being able to prove the felonies in this case. he said this is all great and stellar, but the fact that trump was trying to hide all of this in order to make sure it did not damage his campaign, that is not what this case is about. do you agree? that the prosecution has not actually met the elements of the felonies that have been charged? >> i think, and i think catherine and i are in agreement on this one. when it comes to the underlying misdemeanor, the notion that there were records that were falsified, had they shown the transaction, have they should only records, and had they shown donald trump's knowledge and awareness? that last element, they do not have it quite yet, they certainly have circumstantial evidence of it. michael cohen will give the direct evidence of that presumably. he will come in and say donald trump ordered me to do this, or some version of that. but the part that aggravates it to a felony, you could say that in a sense, the government hasn't even told us what crime they are using as that

predicate crime to bump it up to a felony. it might be election law, it might be tax violations. but either way, the argument that trump is trying to make it through cross-examination is that there were other reasons why he concealed this alleged crime. and if the jury believes that, or if the jury is just confused. taking a step back, this is not like a robbery case, something that jurors can their minds around. this is not only a confusing legal theory, it is a novel legal theory. arguably, it hasn't ever been applied before. certainly falsification of business records, but this application to bump it up to a felony. anytime you are in novelty lands, that might be a hard sell to a jury. >> catherine, i want to say on this. i think the management of people's expectations is always important. especially as lawyers, management of client expectations is key. we have a responsibility when we do these shows and talk about these issues to make sure

that people understand the real machinations of what happens in a room. there were motions to dismiss that were filed by donald trump. they were denied. but at that stage of the motion to dismiss, the legal standard was easier for the prosecution. now, when the prosecution rests its case, which we anticipate could be at the end of next week, i think the defense will move for him judgment of acquittal. the idea that the prosecution has not proven, you know, a prima facie case of each elements of the crime. talk about why that is going to be a different legal analysis that judge rochon will have to do once the defense files motion for judgment of acquittal. it's been a grand jury, when the judge reviews in new york and other states, the grand jury is sufficient if the people have shown that there was reasonable cause that a felony was committed, period. it is not proof beyond a reasonable doubt. trial standard is very different. now i cannot remember the last time, at least in manhattan,

where a judge after the conclusion of the case granted the motion. but it is a very different standard. and i agree that some of our new york lawyers were saying, which crime is it that they are saying that donald trump intended to commit or concealed? i have not explicitly presented that evidence to the jury yet. and there are only two more witnesses. >> reporter: one of the witnesses we will not be hearing from is allen weisselberg. he is doing time it rikers for 4 perjury for the second time. an issue that was resented today outside of court was whether or not his severance agreement was going to be admissible. the severance agreement said that he gets paid out three different payments, but he is not allowed to disparage the trump organization, its directors, et cetera. more importantly, he cannot disparage donald trump here there was a back-and-forth with the prosecution about whether or not it would even make sense to subpoena him from rikers to

have them come over and testify considering the agreement. the fact that weisselberg, who seems, not seems, excuse me. he is a critical part of the case. the fact that he is not testifying, do you think the introduction of this severance agreement would help close that loop for the prosecution? >> i think so. what they are intending to show is that the reason he cannot be here is because we cannot really trust what he has to say. and the idea that he is, i believe the daily beast framed it as him being another hush money payment recipient, that he is basically getting this payout in exchange for staying silent about what he knows about the crimes under discussion. i inc. that the fact that neither the prosecution or defense as the peanut weisselberg is definitely interesting. the fact that march on even floated the idea of it in other side really seemed to have really put that into motion at

all. i think that the defense is right, that there are a lot of reasons why he cannot be there, including, yes, he is serving in rikers. he is also serving in rikers because he will be pled guilty to perjury. so, considering the fact that michael cohen has also credibility issues for lying under oath to congress, i can see where the prosecution would hesitate to put someone else on the stand who might have more credibility issues and instead lean on this severance document instead. >> reporter: you know, you and i have had to deal with putting flipped defendants on. let's look at that lens. i think michael cohen is tantamount to a flipped co- defendant. he will be subpoenaed to show up. but the point is that he knows what happened in that room. right? in those rooms. he was part of the conspiracy. he is saying this is what donald trump agreed to do with

dana packer and me, with allen weisselberg's knowledge. how do you, if you are michael cohen's lawyer, how do you counsel him going into his testimony on monday knowing that the judges actually said as well to the prosecution, tell mr. cohen and the other witnesses to please not talk about this case outside in public? >> here is the advice i would give him. it is the same advice i would have given stormy daniels. just answer the question that is asked. and while on the outside of the courtroom, a lot of folks thought stormy daniels zinged the attorneys with her never answering a question yes or no. but instead, fighting back on every single leading question. while that played well too many outside of the courtroom, when a witness does that, when a witness is combative with every single question on the cross, they do not help anyone. they do not help themselves or the side they are trying to help. if anything, they may help decide they are trying to fight

peer to some degree, that could've happened with stormy daniels. jurors do not always like someone who fights back on every question. if stormy daniels did that, i expect michael cohen will do a lot more. i think his attorneys will probably tell him, i know you think this is your time in the sun, just listen to the question, answer the question asked. yes or no. it is what it is. have credibility problems, the prosecution presumably has built up the rest of their case. it is not all on your back, just go in there and answer the questions asked. >> reporter: you know, to danny's point, stormy daniels tweeted last night after she testified, quote, real men respond to testimony by being sworn in and taking the stand in court. oh, wait, nevermind. putting aside whether or not you support the fact that stormy daniels tweeted about, i mean, we do have to fast- forward this analysis a little bit. because the prosecution rests its case next week. all eyes turned to the defense. and we know constitutionally that the defense has no

obligation to do anything. it does not have the burden of proof. but you and i note also that it is hard to ignore all of the allegations that have been made that are so personal in nature that it actually does almost look to donald trump to have to take the stand to explain away a lot of the things that he has been accused of. >> it just will not happen. i cannot imagine it. and if it were to happen, he would be convicted. you know? defendants also are often their worst enemies. sometimes you listen to the people's case, they rest, and you are, like, well, they did not really prove this, so we will not do anything or say anything and hope that the jury does the right thing. so he is going to speak publicly. he cannot trash witnesses or jurors, but what he does outside the courtroom, that is his way of testifying. >> yes, but this last question will go to you, right? because you actively practicing

criminal defense, you've got clients, rights, that are probably chomping at the bit, like donald trump, to take the stand. the problem you had was this. donald trump from day one has publicly come in the court of public opinion, told the world that he is going to testify. it is not, i will think about it. it is not if it is on a thursday, maybe i will do it. it is i will testify, i have nothing to hide, i will tell the truth. we have also seen, danny, that trumps lawyers have not done a fantastic job of saying no to him has there have been representations made during the course of even this trial that make you scratch your head as a lawyer. it does donald trump take the stand? >> let me take out my list of promises that donald trump has made that no one even takes seriously anymore. no one will remember that he said i was going to testify. i do not know why we are still charlie brown kicking this football. of course he will stand aside and say, hey, i will testify.

and then when he does not, no one will do anything. yes, in the last few weeks, i have taken the underdog at that maybe he will because i'm the only one saying it and i will be a legend if he does. and if he doesn't, everyone will forget i said it. trust me. so i really do not believe he will end up testifying. here's why. psychologically, you will get all kinds of white-collar criminal defendants in cases like this that say i am taking the stand and telling the story. as the case goes on, they get a reality check, and they realize that if they get up there, they will be subjected to the crucible of cross examinations. the rules are slanted against the witness and in favor of the attorney. and really, nothing good can come of it. but the only reason i still hold out for that underdog bet is that he is, he has an unconstitutional -- constitutional right to do it and what lurks in the mind of donald trump. >> baby will have rick scott take the stand for him and testify as his surrogate. thank you to all of you for getting us started this evening. i appreciate you guys as always. when we come back with the legal bills adding up for donald trump, his team is

looking for ways to trim the fat inside a lien or campaign appeared in later, forget ntg and mike johnson, we will talk about the biggest feud of the week. be someone can explain it to me. the 11th hour just getting underway on this friday night. . we should eat more! because now we can turn plants into burgers and hotdogs... even meatballs! now, plants can be meat! come on people, let's punch cholesterol in the face! heyo! we're solving the meat problem... with more meat! impossible. meat from plants! [ indistinct chatter ] oh no. what if we don't get down in time to get a birthday gift for zoe? don't panic. with etsy we can find the perfect gift, and send her a preview right away. i love this. thanks guys.

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campaign ground game, or lack thereof. the campaign is reportedly much leaner than it was four years ago. with, quote, less real estate, fewer employees, and greater dependence on outside groups. while republican defendants in battleground states like arizona and michigan are worried, the trump campaign insists it is all about quantity over quality. joining me now is season dell her co. -- and donna edwards. susan, i will start with you. they are saying that there is no strategy being shared and that there is no ground operations to speak of, in response to the trump team saying it is all part of the plan. that reminds me of people that say just trust the plan. what do you think about this strategy for a presidential campaign that could be decided by, literally, tens of

thousands of voters in a small handful of states. >> when a campaign says we are running a leaner operation and we will be better off, that means they do not have the campaign cash to spend. full stop. that is what they are saying. we also know that the rnc is also not going to be playing its traditional role because it is now controlled by donald trump. and that traditional role being, get out the vote, working with organizations on the ground, working with the senate candidates, congressional candidates, building the groundswell of enthusiasm around the republican candidates. the trump people are saying, yeah, we will do ourselves. but they are not very good at it. and the other thing is, when they start saying we are going to leave it to outside groups, outside groups are meant to be out there to basically bash the opponent. you need your own people to run ground operations. so if they are relying on the

outside groups, they have already lost. >> you know, this has a keystone energy. for example, earlier this week, trumps 18-year-old son, aaron trump, who flies below the radar when it comes to any type of public exposure he was named in rnc delegate for the state of florida. today, his mother milani came out and said that baron is, quote, declining to be a delegate because of prior commitments. let's put aside baron and milani up because i do not get involved in this, necessarily. but what does it tell you when it comes to competency to run the rnc when it comes to organizational detail? that there is always a constant instinct for the trump family or trump to push his family members into official positions within the party. let me be clear, i'm not crying over this, but i do find it to be fascinating that they are, like, to heck with organization or experience. >> this was a team that did not know how to run a campaign in 2016.

they did not know what they were doing in 2020 and they still do not know what they are doing in 2024. it is complete chaos. i have been a candidate, i have been on the ballot and i have never wanted to be a part of a campaign that had to lean. because that meant to me that i just did not have enough money to run the campaign. and so i think you see, you know, this idea that they will not open campaign offices and they will do this all by volunteers. even if you have a volunteers, you have to have somebody that ordinates them, get them out in the field, that tells them what to do, that organizes them. and the trump team just does not seem to have any of that. in contrast with biden, who last week announced that they are opening up 500 offices around the country. the stuffing is up and all the key states. they are starting to do a real field operation and they are getting their candidates out in the field. there is one team that is running a campaign and another team that, well, i'm not really sure what to call it. >> susan, when you are

answering my first question to you, you talked about outside groups and what their purpose is. as donna just noted, resident biden has the cash in the coffers to be able to advance his campaign. the democrats will have this huge cash advantage in the race. but i wanted to ask you about this new fec guidance that allows outside groups to raise and spend money from wealthy donors without limits. it sounds like it is an end run around your typical campaign contribution limits. >> yes. but those and runs have always existed in different ways. it is just which groups can now use that unlimited money? and they still cannot technically coordinate. they are just allowed to have a crossover in funding. not to get too into the weeds, there always has been that before. however, the trump folks want that cash. they do not want outside groups necessarily doing their work, they want to get their money on hand is a need to pay a lot of legal bills. so i think there is a lot of

doubletalk coming out of the trump campaign because they know they are in trouble on the ground. >> you know, donna, when you hear the word leaner, i think that is also, you know, another way of saying cash-strapped. one of the ways that trump could raise money is campaigning and doing more rallies, right? versus just hocking pieces of his suit that he is currently doing with nft cards. but tomorrow, donald trump is holding his first campaign event in about a week. it is a rally in new jersey. and trump could be holding more campaign events on his days off. remember, he does not have court on wednesdays, but he is not doing it. so what is your opinion? the rationale behind the opinion of trump sitting at the opportunity to do more rallies or more campaign events? >> it is interesting because one of the other things that has happened in the intervening years since 2016 is that these rallies are not as effective and they are very expensive to put on. on one hand, the

campaign does not have a lot of money to put on rallies, on the other hand, they do not really seem to have the mechanisms in place or the donor base in place in order to raise money. so i think it will be really hard, even if donald trump decides to get out there on the days that he has, you know, a wednesday or the weekends. i thing it still makes it really hard for them to raise money because they have been strapped all along. in the biden campaign is just chugging along. >> this year's dnc will be in chicago. there are democrats that are worried already that the gaza protest movement could make this convention look like the one we saw in chicago in 1968, filled with a lot of protest, and demonstrators disrupting the proceedings. and as politico points out, chicago's new mayor is firmly on the side of the protesters. i mean, susan, what a hybrid format that cups down on life speaking, excuse me,

extemporaneous kind of opportunities that usually happen at these conventions. i do think it would help, do you think these hybrids would help to minimize disruptions? and would that actually be the right move? >> i do not think it would help. at the end of the day, the protesters will be out there protesting. and it could be on a whole host of issues. right now, the democrats should be extremely concerned because they are in a city where the mayor really is on the side of the protester and thinks it is great that they are going to be out there in force. whereas when we, you know, we look at what happened in new york city back in 2004 with the republican national convention, the city had a lot of blowback because of the way that they treated their protesters. when you have a lot of people gathered and you have every, you know, media outlet in the world and there is disruption, it is never a good look. but with the democrats, it is

also important for them to project as if they are not afraid of the protesters at all. they can go forward with their program. frankly, i think it is all too long anyway. so they could do a lot more not during airtime. >> it is not just the trump campaign that is cutting the fat. susan would recommend that the dnc trim all the fat as well. thank you to the two of you for being here this evening. when we come back, the biden administration is calling out israel over the war in gaza. there is a new report that came out today on israel's tactics. we will get into that when "the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle" continues.

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the biden administration is sharing concerns about israel's war in gaza. the state department said that there was reasonable evidence that israel has violated international humanitarian law. they also say that israel had not violated u.s. weapons agreement. earlier this week, president biden said he would stop sending certain weapons to israel if it launches a major invasion of rough, adding new strain to the decades long relationship between biden and israel's prime minister, benjamin netanyahu. i want to welcome celebrant and offer an historian michael rush loss. it is always a privilege to have you spend time with us. now let's start with the

general premise, to talk about the existing u.s. is really relationship. the tension seems to be palpable and rising. can you lend our viewers some perspective about this perspective? >> it is very much in keeping with this relationship. everyone remembers this is israel and the united states getting along and being close, joined at the hip. and that has sometimes been proven, but a lot of times not. after every major war. 1948, 1956, 1973, 1982. the united states and israel have often times disagreed. there are periods of tension. the united states is a stakeholder here, and a wise israeli prime minister would listen carefully to what an american president says.

>> president biden has been called up for months by critics of the war. now he is under fire from supporters of israel's efforts. but take a quick listen to how senator bernie standers defended president biden. >> one of my republican colleagues even said, quote, joe biden objectively favors a hamas victory over israel. it is just that simple. end of quote. which sounds rather amusing given the fact that for the last 40 years, there has probably been at nobody here in washington, d.c. more strongly supportive of israel than joe biden as a senator and president. >> i get it. biden is in a -- if he does, -- if he doesn't position. does that work in his favor here when it comes to his relations with israel and even

netanyahu? >> i think bernie sanders is absolutely right. and anyone who criticizes biden for not having enough sensitivity about the right of the jewish people in israel to exist just does not know what they are talking about. you heard that great speech that he gave this week at the holocaust museum on the rising danger of anti-semitism in the united states. he mentioned someone that was a close friend of his and also if those friend of mine, congressman tom bentos. he was the only member of congress who had ever survived the holocaust and got elected from san mateo, california. one of the first things i heard about joe biden from him, decades ago, he said, of all the people who are not jewish, who i know, who understand the plight of the jewish people in history and the importance of israel, more than anyone else, he said that was joe biden. >> so the republicans, of

course, have latched onto the campus protest blaming them on president biden. but i wanted to ask you, however protest movements like the ones that we are witnessing now, but also historically, how have they generally impacted presidential races? >> peaceful protest, civil rights, vietnam, other causes have been essential to our history and to our progress, and making this a better society. but on the trump side, there is a bit of an obsession with 1968. richard nixon was running, george wallace was running from the south. they both said the cities are not safe, the campuses are, you know, run by people who are out of control, radical. plus, vice president humphrey was the democratic candidate that year. he was part of a johnson administration that has lost control, ships being compensated, cannot handle the

work in vietnam. some rhetoric you hear from trump advisers would suggest that they are hoping, and may be making an effort to exacerbate the danger that in 2024, there will be danger in the city, on the streets, in the cities, lack of law and order, and these protest will go on, especially at a democratic convention in chicago where the antiwar vietnam protesters of 1968 got into this bloody confrontation with police. they should never hope for that, but americans should be prepared because there is a possibility that it could be part of the campaign strategy. >> you know, i will ask you this question. it may be a bit broad. i know if there is anybody who would know the answer, it would be you. i mean, we ask ourselves often when we are looking at what is happening over in israel in gaza, with hamas. we see the death, we see the

destruction. but these geopolitical conflicts and crises are nothing new. is there something that is unique about this time that we are in that just seems to exacerbate it so much more? we asked, what is being on the right side of history on something like this? >> compared to 30 years ago, we were all lucky, i am sure you can barely remember the 1990s. bill clinton was president, there was one superpower in the world, that was the united states. you did not have problems like this because there was no one who could compete with us. now there are all sorts of powers who not only want to be as powerful as we are, potentially even more, like china. but at the same time, foreign countries know that they can change an american election by making trouble in the world. for instance, in 1980 when the questions entered afghanistan and the iranians took hostages from the united states embassy in tehran. they made jimmy carter look very weak and made it very possible for him to be defeated

by ronald reagan, as he was. so all i am saying is that americans have to prepare themselves for this danger and possibility, and not get too rattled, and do not let other countries and forces elect our presidents. >> including those that are internally threatening american democracy by trying to have a second run at the oval office, i.e., donald trump. thank you, as always. i asked you a big question, but you definitely brought us home. i appreciate you as always. >> think you so much. same here. coming up next, we will take a step back at the topics that were all over our collective social media feeds this week, when "the 11th hour" continues.

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let's head into the weekend breaking down the top stories in pop culture that everyone is talking about. there is a controversy around flex's hit show "baby reindeer". the feud between drake and kendrick lamar and apple's upsetting ipod pro add that

destroys items like books and musical instruments. here to discuss, eric diggins. he is also an adjunct professor at duke university. okay. let's start with baby reindeer. one of the top shows on ethics right now about a woman stalking, and stalking is almost an understatement, a struggling comedian. now the woman claiming to be who the stocker character is based on, is going public. she actually sat down for an interview with piers morgan. she said she will sue. i mean, what is going on with this lady and this? >> every step the story takes, it gets more and more comp located. the first irony is that the piece itself, the tv show itself is a statement about the damaging effects of stocking and how terrible it can be to be the victim of such a thing. and it inspired all these

people to go out and stop this woman until they figured out who she was. and, you know, the daily mail did an interview with another woman who claimed to have been a stalking the them of the real life woman. this woman named fiona harvey wound up talking to piers morgan. and after she did the interview, she said she felt that morgan had manipulated her. you know, my sense was, you are not going to get to the bottom of a story that is as complex as it is with a simple sitdown interview in a tv studio. and piers morgan had to know that. so, you know, the interview with her felt very exploitive when you watch it, and it did not really reveal a whole lot. and the woman did not make a great case that the show had a lot of inaccuracies about her, other than her process stations. this is very tangled and

complex situation because the show says it is based on a true story and the creator and star of the show has tried to keep people from trying to figure out who the characters are based on because there are other characters that do things, like, commit sexual assault, and some people have been accused of being the people that those characters are based on, and the guy had to come out and say, no, you know, you have the wrong people. it is best for fans of the show to try to stop figuring out who the person is and maybe take the message of the show to heart a little bit more. >> yes, like stops losing. we have to switch gears and you have to help me figure this out. i do not know what this is about. drake and kendrick lamar. i will be honest, i did try to enter tik-tok. it just did not work. these are arguably two of the biggest entertainers in the world. they are in a feud, things are escalating, to say something about it. here's just a taste of some of the jabs that have been thrown. take a quick listen.

>> sorry. i was getting into the music. but i do not understand what this is about. there is the beef, but what is the beef? and where is the beef, eric? >> reporter: these two artists had a long simmering tension between themselves for years. and then there was a sense that kendrick lamar did a guest appearance on an album a few months ago that also featured a couple of rappers who used to collaborate with drake. and said some things that were taken as insult to drake. so then drake decided to release a trap where he spoke up for himself. in the me two artists have been sort of dropping different track. and, you know, i saw one person tried to say that this is like

prince and michael jackson going at it. but to me, it felt more like justin timberlake and maybe elvis costello going at it. basically, you have a wrapper in drake who is very commercially successful, but also gets criticized for being shallow and maybe not being authentic. and then you have someone like kendrick lamar who is considered critically a much better wrapper but has not been commercially as successful as drake. the two of them have been fighting. they produce this music, but it has also exposed this trend in black pop culture where we have our test tearing each other down and creating this almost schoolyard fight mentality where people gather around to watch the battle. and it is not just these two artists. i am thinking about when kat williams went on a podcast and set all of these insulting things about other lack comics. and in these comics had to go on other podcast and defend

themselves, talk about it, or maybe insult him back. and then you have fans wondering, you know, are all of these artists preoccupied with tearing each other down then to actually build up the culture and art? so that is one thing that troubles me a little bit about seeing this. but for anyone who says that, you know, like twitter might be dead because elon musk has taken over twitter and changed it, all you had to do was look at social media when these disc tracks were dropping. folks were on it. there were so many names, so much commentary. people were really interested in it. >> eric, we've got to go. but i will say two things. this is definitely not east coast, / west coast. and it ain't tupac. thank you so much for being here, we will be right back. b.

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it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. wooooo! that does it for us tonight. be sure to tune in to the katie phang show tomorrow. pete buttigieg joins me to talk about the china town stitch project in philadelphia. part of a larger initiative to help people affected by red lining and imminent domain. on that note, i do want to wish you a good night. ari melber is up next. and from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thanks for staying up late and being with us. we'll see you this weekend.