...day to fly. that does it for me. thanks for watching. i'll see you at 5:00 p.m. eastern for another live hour of "politics nation." "the saturday show with tran05" starts right now. ♪ donald trump off his former fixer, michael cohen, will testify against his former boss, monday, in trump's hush money election trial. inside looks at the biggest week of the child trial yet.

a report critical of israel's actions in gaza, as president biden draws a redline on israel launching a full- scale invasion of rafah. former congresswoman jane harman is here to help sort it out. and the black vote. new polling raising questions about biting's support among this critical group, and how black lgbtq+ voters could be a decisive factor. kelly robinson of the human rights campaign join me to break down what is behind those numbers. i am jonathan capehart. this is " the saturday show." ♪ ♪ this week of donald trump's new york criminal trial was all about the dirty details.

with adult film star, and writer, stormy daniels, testifying about the one night stand trump allegedly spent $130 thousand to cover up, he claims he never had a sexual encounter with daniels. during a reservist cross- examination rigorous cross- examination, daniels fired back "if that story was untrue i would have written it to be a lot better. but the stakes of this case are much bigger than the hotel room. it is looking like this case, the people of the state of new york against john old jay. trump might be the only chance to hold trump accountable for election interference before this november's election. that's because trump's three other criminal cases have been slammed with major delays. in georgia come the state appeals court has agreed to a trump's request to disqualify district attorney fani willis. that process should keep trump

out of fulton county courtrooms until after the election. in florida trump's classified documents trial which was supposed to begin has been postponed indefinitely, because the trump-appointed judge presiding over the case says it would be "imprudent to even set a date, given "the various pending pretrial motions before the court." folks, there would be a need for this delay if she would just decide all these motions, many of which have language for months. then there is trump's main election interference case, federal charges related to january 6th and his claims of absolute immunity. questioning by the supreme court's conservative majority suggests the high court could hand down a decision that delays that trial until after the november election. so, all eyes are on a manhattan courtroom, and a cast case

against the twice impeached four times indicted on 88 counts former president. but as trump's former fixer, michael cohen, points out, the new york trial is about equal justice, and the rule of law. >> why are we now handicapping cases? this isn't the kentucky derby, this is our democracy. >> as far as i'm concerned, whatever holds them accountable i'm okay with. >> michael cohen is expected to take the stand on monday, but not before receiving a warning from judge juan merchan to stop publicly taunting trump. trump, who has been already fined tens of thousands of dollars for violating a gag order is clearly struggling not to lash out at his former attorney. >> for but i can say whatever they want. they can say whatever they want, but i am not allowed to say anything allowed anybody,

because if anything is mentioned against certain people, and you know who they are, certain people, anything is even mentioned, he wants to put me in jail. >> so much whining, maybe, that's why trump brought rick scott of florida to court this week. scott helped spread some of trump's favorite falsehoods, including "if they can go after the former president, they can go after you." you know what? senator scott, you are absolutely correct. but, we would have to be indicted by a jury for falsifying business records, illegally retaining classified documents, trying to overturn a free and fair national election, and one in georgia. just saying. joining me now, msnbc neocon tl, professor of law at georgetown university, former solicitor general of the united states. also with me, sick security correspondent adam klasfeld.

thank you both for joining. neil? how credible was stormy daniels? >> i think she was quite credible. you know, even before stormy came on we have seen trump's former friend to former friend turn on trump in the trial, and the whole thing is like a bad feud, it reminds me of drake and kendrick lamar, and, that was the prelude to stormy daniels coming to testify. some of the testimony on her first day straight into things i think but he really needed to hear. it did not bolster her credibility by recalling certain details, but it did become extraneous. she seemed incredibly credible when she left the jury. the strategy is essentially

trying to shame her for her profession and stuff. i think it spectacularly fired, and it goes to show, trump's opening statement, no affair, that the $130,000 trump never paid and so on, and all of that has and blown out of the water already by the testimony from stormy daniels about the affair where she seems far more credible than the absent donald trump, who it looks like he is not going to take the stand to contradict stormy daniels' testimony, and what his lawyer said trump never paid, we learned this week trump admitted in another court proceeding he did pay the $130,000. so, right now, it's not looking good for the defense. their help i think is to tear down the credibility of the last big one is, michael cohen. >> one more thing. in terms of the stuff we didn't need to hear you mentioned before, could that part of her testimony end up helping trump on appeal? real quick.

>> yeah. so, they clearly did this not because the judge was going to cook exception for the mistrial, but i don't think this is enough. there are always in every major criminal trial some extraneous information that the jury here, there will be a cautionary instruction about that to the jury, and, i do not see this as the basis for undoing what seems like prayer right now in a pretty open and shut trial. >> the judge scolded trump for swearing and shaking his head while daniels was speaking. what you make of stormy and those actions? >> so, the jury, let me address the second part of it, first. with stormy daniels we have a very professional jury sitting there, because during her testimony, she was very funny. there were a number of lines,

where she was for example, talking about-- she was asked about her reaction to the indictment, susan necklace asked her incredulously that she didn't know what the indictment about, she implied there were a lot of indictments. there were a lot of laughter moments. she was pressed about her merchandise, say, she was monetizing on the indictments, and she said not unlike mr. trump. and these were not isolated lines. it was one after another, after another. there was a lot of laughter in that courtroom, and the jury, they were smiling. there was definitely a back and forth. you sometimes see that in trials where jurors, especially during contentious cross- examination, she glances at the witness, and the attorney, a volley like a tennis match.

noticeable was the kind of solid professionalism of this jury. as for their look at the defendant, one thing is probably no reporter knows exactly what they saw quite like the judge and jury, just because of the mechanics. look at the layout, even for the best seat in the house where the press is seated, we are seeing the back of the head, they are looking at them straight in the eyes during that cursing episode. >> if anyone has followed stormy daniels on twitter they are the least surprised by how funny she must have been on the stand. neil, as trump loves to remind us, cohen was convicted of lying to congress, so how will jurors way his pass with his present credibility? >> it will definitely be an issue. the district court, the district attorney has approved donald trump caused making a knowing false business record

with intent to conceal another crime. campaign finance laws. we have had scrimmages about that, and you can expect trump's lira to say hey, you have been convicted of a felony and the like. you can expect cohen himself to come back and say no, here i am telling the truth with no incentive to lie, and you know, there is a lot of corroborating evidence that supports michael cohen's story. i think that's what makes it different from a he said he said. they have built that, some of it is boring like receipts and bank statements and knowledge about how trump signed his checks, and things like that, but all of it is so far built a pretty airtight case.

if you are trump's lawyer, you are probably thinking god, what can i do to turn this around. and probably just attacking cohen alone isn't going to get you there. >> neil, adam, thank you both very much for coming to "the saturday show." why any state department report says israel may have violated international humanitarian law, but that will impact military aid. chair of the commission on the national defense strategy joins me live to explain. two e-voting blocks president biden needs to be trump, and what it will take to shore up their support. a jam- packed hour of the saturday show, keep it here. here.

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its military campaign there. but so far israel's move into the city has stopped short of a full-scale ground invasion. you may remember back in march i asked president biden whether an invasion of rafah would be a redline for the united states. what is your redline with prime minister netanyahu? do you have a redline, for instance, would invasion of rafah, which you have urged him not to do, would that be a redline? >> israel, i'm never going to leave israel. >> two months later president biden has drawn a hand redline. he warned prime minister netanyahu the u.s. would pause more arms shipments if israel does move ahead with a full- scale invasion. >> i made it clear, that if they go into rafah, they haven't gone into rafah yet, if they go into rafah, i am not

supplying the weapons that have been used historically to deal with rafah. >> in response, netanyahu says, that israel is prepared to fight without the help of the united states. >> if israel has to stand alone we'll stand alone. but we also know we are not alone, because we have so many decent people, everywhere, who do support us, who do understand the truth, and we defeat our enemies. >> joining me now, former congresswoman jane harman of california, chair of the commission on the national defense strategy. congressman harmon, thank you for coming to the show, as always. before we get to the redline let's talk about this report issued by the state department yesterday. it said that it is reasonable to assess the idf used u.s. weapons since october 7th. "inconsistent with international humanitarian law." it stops short of saying israel violated terms of u.s. weapons agreements. your reaction?

>> it's very careful, and it does not say you assess, it says it is reasonable to assess, which means someone could assess that maybe we don't, it was a cautious report, and the delayed the release. i think that was intentional. >> intentional why? >> this whole issue is so fraught. every part of it is radioactive, and the tragedy is right now, 1.4 million people are in harms way in rafah, and i applaud president biden for trying to do what he can using leverage he has to do two things. one to support israel. the redline is not that he does not support israel regardless of what i minister netanyahu says. but to say hey guys, this is the wrong way to go to achieve your objections. >> you then agree with the president's decision to pause some arms shipments to israel and threatening to do more of

that if they do a full-scale invasion? >> he is not the first president to do that. peter baker has a good new york times piece saying ronald reagan did that. i think we forgot that in 1982, when israel bombed beirut, and we had a different prime minister in israel, and reagan called him and said this is a holocaust, i think that might have been a little extreme, but hey-- and not sending cluster munitions, and i, slowing down, or maybe not sending f-16's. >> do you think, one, i mean humanitarian workers and doctors are warning the situation for civilians is worsening in gaza. how devastating would a full- scale invasion of rafah be? >> well we have already seen this movie several times in other parts of gaza. it seems there are more people packed into rafah and the border crossings are closed,

and the un is predicting a food catastrophe tomorrow. what i worry about is that the objective that i that everybody had a few weeks ago, which was to release the hostages, or at least a number of them in exchange for a number of prisoners in israeli jails, with a temporary cease-fire, is gone. that is to happen soon. if we think about it it's reported the u.s. is sharing intelligence about the location of people in the tunnels now with israel, think about it. now, the hamas has time to prepare, and don't you think that those hostages are in those tunnels and are going to be human shields, if the idf comes near or tries to come near these leaders of hamas? i'm forgetting those leaders of hamas, but i think the strategy, which is what president biden thinks, is not going to accomplish that.

>> you know yesterday hamas said the cease-fire negotiations with israel are "back to square one. do you believe that? diplomacy is a tricky thing. folks say so publicly, and behind the scenes there are all sorts of things-- >> correct. i don't know enough to know. we've had our best people on the case. we have had repeated visits. we have had everybody the biden administration, who has sophistication in the area talking to a variety of israelis. the problem is that benjamin netanyahu has two right-wing personnel in his cabinet. if they turn on him they could call for new elections, and he's boxed in if he wants to remain as prime minister, but guess what. i think he should want to have his legacy be that he saved his country from a dire threat, and he built security for the future, which to me, requires a

two state solution with secure borders, which is u.s. policy. >> former congresswoman jane harman, thank you so much for coming to the show. a chorus for marjorie taylor greene on the house floor, of boos. plus, what we know of rfk's brain eating warm and the effect on his campaign. yet another chaotic week in american politics. american politics. viking. unpack once and get closer to iconic landmarks, local life and cultural treasures. because when you experience europe on a viking longship, you'll spend less time getting there and more time being there. viking. exploring the world in comfort.

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people watching. >> are you not entertained? [ laughter ] let that moment sink in. congresswoman marjorie taylor greene putting boot on the house floor for introducing her motion to unseat speaker mike johnson. it was an epic fail. democrats rallied to save johnson's speakership, and the motion was killed by 359-43 vote, with seven democrats voting present. this has been a big week i'll run for american politics in the 2024 presidential election. the wall street journal is reporting nikki haley is hovering with donors about a presidential run in 2028, but won't commit to endorsing trump this year. yet. haley still has supporters that trump needs. she got 21% of the vote in indiana's republican primary on tuesday despite dropping out of the race months ago. in a social media post trump quashed rumors he's considering haley as vp, but added he

"wished her well." exclamation point, signed the jt. don't let it fool you, he has signed that, even wishing me the best. robert f kennedy junior, third-party candidate, saying-- i can't believe-- [ laughter ] said doctors told him a parasitic worm got into his brain and ate part of it. come on. joining me now, christina greer, public scholars fellow at the city college of new york and author of lack ethnics race, immigration, and pursuit of the american dream. msnbc political analyst, okay, let's start with democrats beginning with saving mike

johnson. what did they get from johnson in return? >> democrats have been clear they want to pass legislation, jonathan, they actually want to do their jobs, they are not their peers in wanting theater. he is incredibly conservative, right-wing, there, they are trying to do some work, and so this idea that we will have theatrics, it turns off young people, it turns off people who actually want to see their tax dollars go to work, which is people being in washington, d.c. thinking of legislation in these hard decisions. marjorie taylor greene has been and continues to be a distraction, and we see in the republican party she is literally a cancer they cannot

get rid of. now they have to deal with her. >> david, if mike johnson had to rely on democrats to keep his job and also has to rely on them to successfully govern, doesn't that make the speakership republican in name only? >> sure, jonathan. hakeem jeffries is speaker of the house and really has been for the past 18 months or so. if you look at the legislation that had to pass from the debt ceiling increase to a to ukraine, and saving the actual office of the speakership, it's been a hakeem jeffries-led democratic coalition that has allowed the house to govern, and to function. you use the term epic fail by marjorie taylor greene. there is such a glorious incompetence from the lady from georgia in this. and i mean it, incompetence. if you consider matt gaetz, he

was a tactician. you can like or hate him, but he knows what he's doing. marjorie taylor greene really doesn't know what she's doing. i suggest the writing is on the wall for johnson, he will not be speaker in genuine, in january. hakeem jeffries could become speaker, or, if republicans hold the house, we have seen he does not have enough votes within his caucus to remain speaker, and hakeem jeffries and democrats will not bail him out. house republicans will have a new leader in january if the return to the majority. >> i am wondering if he will be house speaker by october, given the way of his rock his caucus. let's also talk about nikki haley. i think it's a great she is looking to run in 2028 and is not looking to endorse donald trump yet, and heaven help her if she decides to be his running mate. but, christina, what do you make of all of

this? do you expect her to do what every other candidate has done and endorsing? >> yes, this is what the republicans will do, but she's holding out, because it's a bargaining chip. the data is clear there are many republicans who do not want donald trump as the nominee. they are literally looking at their candidate sitting in a courtroom every day, looking at several court cases across several states, so no, the republican party is less than enthusiastic in many ways, and many donors are less than enthusiastic. will nikki haley come around? they always do, but this is a way for her to be in conversation with donors and leaders in the republican party, because there are just in case there is a scenario where donald trump cannot take on the mantle of the republican

party, she wants to still be viable. what republicans don't fully understand is that if donald trump gets reelected he will sell this country for parts. i don't know if we are guaranteed election, he is clear he doesn't want that to happen, he wants to stay in office and stay out of prison in doing so. >> we only have a minute left, david, but we cannot end without talking about the dead warm in the brain of rfk junior. what impact will this have on his campaign? should we take anything from the fact that donald trump went on video on his social media platform and attacked rfk junior for a long time? >> yeah, i think rfk junior can take more from republicans. i think that is why trump is attacking him. he is a flip-flop on the issue of abortion, and his own

candidate can't keep where he is. now he says he has a warm eating his brain, he is a perfect republican today. who knows how he takes specific states that matter to abide in victory in november, but i would tell you the sky speaks to the eryn rogers republican, which ultimately could take from the maga crowd. i expect to see biden having fun with rfk in november. >> christina, david, thank you both for coming to the saturday show. take a look at this, you are looking at live pictures of donald trump speaking at a campaign rally in wildwood, new jersey. i pumped gas there at the station that no longer exists in wildwood new jersey. he will be back on the courtroom coming up.

black and lgbtq voters could be a major factor in this year's presidential election especially in some of the big battleground states. what the latest poll numbers need for biden's campaign. en's. e future looks like. for me. i may have trouble getting around, but i want to live in my home where i'm comfortable and my friends are nearby. i can do it with the help of a barber, personal shopper and exercise buddy. someone who can help me live right at home. life's good. when you have a plan. ♪ ♪

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and we both sleep better. and stay married. it's a beautiful... and w...day to fly. tter. wooooo! as we inch closer to november, joe biden and donald trump, presumptive nominees, are locked in a close election. two key voting blocs could be a deciding factor. biden has been pulling out the

stops in an effort to win over lgbtq+ and black voters, and it looks like it is paying off. these voters are overwhelmingly favoring another biden term. according to a recent poll 68% of voters compared and preferred biden over 15% for trump. a new times poll shows 69% of black americans support biden while trump only has 16% of the vote. but, even with these result black voter enthusiasm has declined, since the 2020 election. the black and lgbtq+ communities played an important role in a winning coalition for biden in 2020, but the big question this year is can they help him win against mark kelly robbins, president of the human rights campaign and democratic poll ceo, founding partner at hit strategies, thank you both very much for coming to "the saturday show." okay, let's just talk about this. these polls show a decrease in

expected voter turnout in november. are you seeing a similar trend? i'm coming to you on this, kelly, too. >> i am glad we started here. enthusiasm is interesting. it is something posters used to try and predict who we vote. not all black voters are voting enthusiastically. one told me voting for him is like taking out the trash, he doesn't always do it enthusiastically, but if he doesn't it starts to stink around here, editing voters relies stuff is starting to stink around here. 87% of joe biden voters say 87% of biden voters from 2020 said they will vote for him again in this election, and so i do think we are seeing that begin to reassemble, but they still have work to do with the younger black voters, and with black men. >> kelly, your thoughts?

>> i mean i agree with you. every two years we have the conversation, are black voters motivated to turn out? and still we always do. 2020 you had the largest turnout of black voters since obama's reelection. 2022 we stopped at the red wave from happening 320 23 we showed out and stopped a number of anti-trans, anti-equality, anti- voting people from getting into office. we have proven ourselves to be a constituency in a block that delivers support. it's not the question if whether they are motivated, it's what are these candidates doing to show these voters they have delivered for them? >> so then, talk about the impact of not just black voters and lgbtq+ voters, but the two combined. like us. >> [ laughter ] >> black lgbtq voters. human rights campaigns has, we are the linchpin in 2024. how?

>> it's true, we will be the deciding factor. across this country we identified 62 million voters who prioritize lgbtq+ issues when deciding to put a vote forward. 62 millions, four times the number of total registered voters in the state of florida alone, and 16 million voters are also black. so when we think about the margin it will take to win, because we know the path to 270 will be determined by tens of thousands of voters and a handful of states, and we are talking about a voting lock of 16 million black lgbtq plus folks that can be a determining factor, for the outcome of the house and the senate, and so many local elections across the board. >> that's exactly right. black lgbtq voters concentrating in this younger demographic, younger black voters, and we talked about the gender gap between black voters, that men are showing up different than women, but that is a four point gap, but we

haven't talked enough about the generation gap amongst black voters. younger black voters are less likely to support joe biden an older black voters. i love black seniors, because we know who they are going to vote for. younger black voters are emerging as a persuasion block. we have to not only convince them to participate, but they have options. there's not one state in america where there will be two names on the ballot. where we see younger black voters, about 10% considering trump, we see about 10% considering third-party candidates. so there is work to do to continue reassembling that biden coalition, because that's where we have seen erosion in the numbers. >> i have every hope that the two of you will ensure that folks had better vote. >> [ laughter ] >> kelley robinson, terrance woodbury, thank you for coming to "the saturday show."

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you might recognize my next guest as a veteran reporter who has covered stories around the world and host his own show here on msnbc, but tonight, we are getting closer look at his story. in his new men more, small acts of courage, my friend and colleague, ali velshi, shares his own family's remarkable journey, from moving to the united states, and how small actions in life can shape a person and their beliefs. last week i had the opportunity to sit down with ali to discuss that and the inspiration behind his new book. ali velshi, thank you for coming on the show to discuss "small acts of courage, a legacy of endurance, and the fight for democracy."

congratulations on the book. >> and a little bit of tv magic, we work to get a much, but we are rarely in the same place together. >> not in new york, not washington. >> right. >> the book is incredible, and you start out talking about when you got shot by rubber bullet in minneapolis. you go on to talk about a young man named jamaal, who you met when a liquor store is burning down, and you had a conversation. and in that conversation you came to the realization you were as you write two sides of the same coin. you wrote up until the point i got shot i was not fully invested in the american citizenship, because i didn't have to be. i was privileged enough to take it for granted meanwhile he, jamaal, was not fully invested in his citizenship, because he felt it had failed to provide him with the rights and protections that he deserved. then you go on to write that it will require more than just

reforming the way we police. it will require us to build a society where the rights, privileges, and protections of citizenship and the responsibilities of citizenship are shared by all. >> right. >> that to me is the crystallization of what you wanted to write. >> you got it. because, jamaal wasn't feeling he was receiving the rights of citizenship to which he was entitled. i had grown up with no challenge, like my parents had. my parents and sister grew up in apartheid, so they didn't have rights by virtue of the color of their skin. i was worn in postcolonial kenya, and a group in canada. so i didn't feel there were responsibilities on me as a citizen. before i went to get my u.s. citizenship my main complaint was i was going to have to do jury duty if i get it. talk about the laziness of not

wanting to be a citizen. jamaal explained why he burned down the liquor store and was eluding shops after the death of george floyd for which no one had been charged by the time we had that conversation. he said, why am i subscribing to a system that does not offer me the protections and rights it should be? that was actually the realization that we were two sides of the same coin. i needed to live up to my responsibilities of citizenship, and jamaal and people he was talking about in neapolis that night which was really at black people at large in america needed to enjoy the privileges of citizenship more. until that is balanced out none of us are fully enjoying democracy. >> born in kenya, you came to the united states from canada, and you write in your book, i was already the jason borne of cable news anchors.

i bring that up, because you became a citizen, because there colleague, fellow canadian, who read you the article about the jury duty complaint, so again, why did it take you so long to go from-- being a citizen, and following through being a citizen, to then understanding wait, it's actually really a lot more involved. >> i was moved by becoming a citizen, the morning i became a citizen, because i walked into this room for whom it clearly mattered more than it did for me. i was living here on a green card, i was a canadian, it wasn't going to have much of an effect on my life. then i realized we are all in this struggle together, that my parents, 50 plus years ago came to these shores thinking their lifelong fight for democracy had ended, and i realized in minneapolis that night it hasn't ended. it doesn't end, it won't end.

we say democracy this year is really in peril, but it sort of is always in peril if you don't watch it. there are always those who will take it away, and treat people unequally, so it was that moment in which i realized my citizenship is not the ceremony, not the event where i got my citizenship, it is when you realize you have spots ability. so mine was what we call privileged today. i didn't grow up worrying about what i had to do to maintain democracy and do my part to hold it up, and now in 2024 we are all realizing voting is a price of admission. that is the least you can do. what about showing up to your school board? what about making sure school books are not banned? what about supporting other people? >> are those examples you give, voting, showing up for your school board meetings, do those make up the small acts of courage? >> they do. small acts are important, they

do change the world. part of the concern i wanted to address is that the world feels very overwhelming right now. there is war, climate change, there is authoritarianism. you might be able to grow into changing that, but even the people who have changed the world, whether nelson mandela, or gandhi, or martin luther king, that i write about, they don't set up to change everything in every margin, every effort, sometimes just change a thing in front of you. it might be self improvement, see you can do better for your family. it might help someone get educated or mentor someone, but if we do the small things and do those small things connected to politics we want only change the world, but how many times have you and i discovered in the last few years young local politicians, local legislators, you could look at and easily say this person could be the president of the united states, people are out there, do your part to nurture the goodness in society, and the fairness of democracy, and it can work.

>> i ask authors, what you hope people will take from reading your book, but the name of the book is small acts of courage he, small written by my colleague, ali velshi. check out this amazing story, and his message, but also pick up the book, because you didn't know, ali rode a motorcycle, did you? thank you. and we'll be back with more of "the saturday show," right after the break. break. (restaurant noise) [announcer] introducing allison's plaque psoriasis. she thinks her flaky gray patches are all people see.

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thanks for watching "the saturday show." join us when congressman gerry connolly discusses trump and allies saying they won't refuse to accept the outcomes of the election. and i speak with angela alsobrooks, joining us to discuss her chances against a competitor who is outspending her, 10-1, tomorrow, 6:00 p.m. eastern, here on msnbc. ayman is up next. tonight on ayman, the biden administration dropping