the one person who made me feel like i could be in control was him. and i can call him to see if i am handling this the right way or -- >> reporter: as you are sitting here talking, you have been calling on him again and again. >> i like to think that. >> reporter: in the end, randy baker's daughter is just as tough as he was. maybe tougher. maybe she just doesn't know it yet. >> that's all for this edition of "dateline." i'm andrea canning. thank you for watching. watchin

have missed. >> in wisconsin, president biden said he n believes donald trump will not accept the results of the 2024 election. not exactly news there. biden was responding to trump's comment. he said you have to fight for the right of the country if the election results are not honest as he put it. >> is that a threat? >> just like september -- january 6th. the guy is not a democrat with a small d. he is -- the idea you can't only love your country when you win, number one. how many court cases do they have? supreme court cases. they all said this is totally legitimate election. this is trump. i mean, it's the same -- he may not accept the outcome of the election, i promise you he

won't. >> promise he won't. >> he won't. it's dangerous. >> the president biden talking to erin burnett. joining us is author of the book how the right lost its mind and and. not exactly a big revelation that donald trump will not honor the results of the election given what we saw in 2024 and what he signaled this year as well but some of his vice presidential nominees falling in line when asked by kristen welker on "meet the press," six different times senator scott would not commit to honoring the outcome of the election. >> that is a safe bet that donald trump will not graciously concede defeat. he never does.

it is interesting watching the auditioning for vice president and you know through the ghost of mike pence hangs over all of this. donald trump doesn't want just loyalty. he wants virginia visual loyalty. a guarantee that, in fact, the vice president, whoever he choses -- the one person he cannot fire will do his bidding, the tough things, the difficult courageous things. it is interesting how willing all of these vice presidential wannabes are in saying, yes, donald, we will say and do anything. we will kill puppies for you to show how tough we are. >> in a gravel pit no less. the biden campaign was in the white house happy to lien into the split screen. we are building an ai facility in the same place donald trump failed to build the fox con

plant. the split screen that they are not talking about but well aware of and don't discourage reporters from noticing is that joe biden yesterday in wisconsin, heads to the west coast this week. where is donald trump spending his time, in a courtroom, in manhattan. do we think that is -- we know how few undecideds there are. will that resonate with people or will this trial come and go. >> after a week of steamy stormy testimony it's difficult for those of us following the trial to know in the long run how much impact this will have in november or because donald trump faces so many legal problems they get discounted and merged together or from donald trump's supporters point of view they get portrayed as the deep state is against donald trump. i think it could split either way. this isn't -- this is a bit of a messy trial. not just the subject matter

that is messy. it would take one member of the jury to say they don't buy the argument. it was tied to campaign finance or donald trump was directly involved for this to be a hung jury. a hung jury or if donald trump is a acquitted what impact would that have on the election. that is different from a guilty finding for donald trump. then the other question is does the biden campaign actually that donald trump kind of muzzled to some extent in a courtroom is less beneficial to them than donald trump on the campaign trail saying the kinds of things that they feel are explosive, being pushed into the rallies plwhere -- which is when he goes off script and starts saying some of his more extreme things and they feel that's more beneficial. on the wisconsin thing, jonathan, your outfit, politico had the great report that may explain some of the reason i didn't joe biden is not getting the kudos that he feels he should be getting. it's only 17% of the money

pledged spent on these infrastructure projects. it's harder for the president to say look at the benefits we brought for you. >> charlie, off what was just referenced, the trial and the verdict that would come from this trial because you are more familiar with republicans than i am, what is your sense of what sewould happen to trump's support if there were a guilty verdict. we have seen nikki haley get 20% of the vote in the indiana primary. if donald trump is found guilty, what is your sense of what would happen? >> it's not going to affect his hard core support. republicans baked that in. they raised their hands during the debate aiand said they woul support him even if he was a convicted felon. being a convicted felon is not an asset. we do live on earth 2.0. it's hard to imagine that voters is in my home state of wisconsin will be more likely to vote for somebody who is a

convicted felon. and, also, it's just the wash around of all of the sleaze surrounding him. not just the guilty verdict. it's being reminded who donald trump is, the kind of world that he lives in, the way he treats women. the way he treats the idea of truth. again, don't expect republicans to break from him. don't expect the base to move away from him. but swing voters are not likely to be impressed. can i comment -- i'm a few miles up the road from that plant where joe biden was yesterday. people in wisconsin remember this story really well. they remember the whole fox con con, how it was touted by donald trump and scott walker. all the money committed -- these were really, really big numbers. a huge story in wisconsin. this is one of the moments where my reaction to joe biden

coming in and trolling trump on this was this is -- this was a pretty good act of presidential trolling to really highlight the gap between what donald trump promised and what happened. and trust me, people in wisconsin remember this story and know exactly what joe biden is talking about. >> vivid contrast. there was supposed to be 13,000 jobs touted by donald trump but did not show up. thanks so much as always, we appreciate it. we have lots more to get to this hour. "morning joe weekend" continues after a short break. orning joe after a short break.

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lawmakers from both sides of the aisle overwhelmingly voted to save house speaker mike johnson after marjorie taylor greene tried and failed

to oust him from leadership. greene introduced the motion to vacate after two days of back to back meetings with speaker johnson. her own colleagues were quick to boo and jeer her on the house floor. >> the form of the resolution is as follows. declaring the office of speaker of the house representatives vacant. >> boo. >> there are the boos. the vote to table greene's motion to vacate was 359-43. only 10 republicans even sided with greene. speaker johnson spoke to reporters after the vote. >> i want to say that i appreciate the show of confidence from my colleagues to defeat this misguided effort. that is what it was. hopefully this advertise the end of the personality politics and character assassination that defined the 118th congress. it's regretable. it's not who we are as americans. we are better than this.

in this moment, the country desperately needs a functioning congress. that is what the overwhelming majority of the members in this body demonstrated today. >> joe. it was clear before the vote it would fail in the attempt to ought the speaker. i don't think we understood how bad the margin against her would be. 10 republicans after all this fury and sound and it was completely blown out in the vote falling flat in her attempt to get rid of the speaker. >> all the threats made against him if he did a continuing resolution, kept the government open, if he provided aid to israel, if he provided aid to ukraine. if he provided aid to taiwan. all of those threats fell by the wayside. and, you know, it raises the question that extraordinary

profile, the atlantic profile asked as a sub heading, what if this guy may end up being good at this job. right now, jackie, it's looking like he is going to far outpace all expectations for him. >> that is until november, joe. i think johnson made a miss calculation when he was negotiating the ukraine and the israel supplemental package in not changing the rules around being able to bring up the motion to vacate on a snap vote as we have seen major railroad taylor greene do. democrats stepped in this time around but we will see how long this good faith and this mutually beneficial relationship continues. as trump said last night, now is not the time, marg. basically there is this feeling that this destruction within the party is not good for

keeping the republican re- election chances hens trump's statement. i think we will see this play out until november then after that we will get back to the republican civil war that we are so used to seeing play out. >> we had fellow republicans calling marjorie taylor greene moscow marjorie. what does this moment tell us and maybe the ukraine aid vote tell us about the power of maga extremists. is it waning, is it there? to some attempt she doesn't care. she will raise money and get reelected. >> she doesn't care about governing. for her she gets headlines, failed headlines but she gets to show it to trump and since she doesn't care about the outcome it doesn't matter to her. as the months go by, how much

is the foreign policy and the supporting votes of these house lawmakers, how much will that be an election issue in this contentious election year, especially in the swing districts where people are more divided frankly over biden's foreign policy and what the gop's is so lashonist has rolled to. >> they both come out weakened. johnson gets to keep his job but democrats had to save him. we will see how he can lead going forward. marjorie taylor greene, it was embarrassing. she is getting favorable coverage on conservative sites. at the end of the day johnson got to where he needed to. he did the right thing on the ukraine deal. they expect he will be a thorn in the side going forward to appease those on the far right. but there isn't that much in terms of serious legislative

business that will get done. >> do you think the maga extremists are weakened. >> i think because of the way the house is structured with districts so jerry man deferred and some being so red that catering to the base is never going to really hurt some of these far right lawmakers whose constituents buy into the strategy of actively trying not to govern. you know, none of these people have viable primary challengers. they are going into november safe. but who it does hurt are the colleagues in vulnerable districts. the more they have this infighting of democrats being able to take back the house, even if trump does win the presidency. >> you know, the crazy thing, willie, is they don't care if they lose the majority. they really don't. in fact, being in the minority is better for these people

because they are on the back bench. they can attack the democratic speaker, attack the democratic president and attack the democratic senate. it's such a bizarre backward way of thinking but they now think they can raise money whether they are the majority or minority. if they are in the majority, they look to to get things done. that actually cuts against their business plan, against their governing by gesture. because you actually have to do things in the majority. when you don't, people start to notice, like they are starting to notice that marjorie taylor greene. no responsibility, you won't get anything done. your gesturing can be more grand. that is the real problem for marjorie taylor greene and these others that they present to the republican party. it's like chip screaming on the

house floor. name one thing that we got done. and it's going to be a real challenging into the election for the republicans. >> yeah. objectively one of the least productive congresses in the history of the country. throw becomes from the back bench when you are not in power. after so many high profiled republicans spoke out about donald trump only to turn around and endorse him, there is one party faithful that is calling them out by name and encouraging others to support president joe biden. we will tell you who after the break. you who after the break. i bought the team! kevin...? i bought the team! i put it on my chase freedom unlimited card. and i'm gonna' cashback on a few other things too... starting with the sound system! curry from deep. that's caaaaaaaaash. i prefer the old intro! this is much better! i don't think so! steph, one more thing... the team owner gets five minutes a game. cash bros? woo!

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is it safe you will be an enthusiastic supporter of donald trump. >> i support the ticket and donald trump. >> if faced with a choice between two people kneer of which i think should be president i think it's my duty that i think would do the least

damage to the country. i think trump would do less damage than biden. all this stuff about a threat to democracy i think the real threat to democracy is the progressive movement in the biden administration. >> you said you endorse former president trump. you will endorse i am. >> i said three years ago after the attack on the capital that i would support the nominee of the party whoever that was and i do. >> that includes voting for him. >> i said it three years ago. i'm not just making news today. >> a look at some of the high profile republicans who are now endorsing donald trump despite criticizing the former president in the past. and now jeff duncan the former lieutenant governor of georgia is calling them out by name in a new op-ed for the atlanta journal constitution. duncan writes in part, quote,

it's disappointing to watch an increasing number of republicans fall in line behind former president donald trump. this includes some of his fiercest detractors such as senate minority leader mitch mcconnell. new hampshire governor chris sununu and former attorney general bill barr. he continues, yes, elections are a binary choice and questions linger about president biden's ability to serve until the age of 86 and his progressive policies aren't to conservatives liking. the alternative is another term of trump, a man who has disqualified himself there his conduct and character. most important, trump famed the flame of the conspiracy theories that led to january 6th. refused that he lost the last

election and hinted he may do so again. trump has shown us who he is and we should believe him. to think he is going to change at the age of 77 is beyond improper ability. unlike trump, i've been longed to the gop my entire life. this november, i am voting for a decent person i disagree with on policy over a criminal defendant without a moral compass. let's bring in the host of msnbc's inside with jen psaki. she is out with a new book entitled say more, lessons from work, the white house and the world. i can't wait to talk about this book. congratulations. >> thank you. >> exciting. >> and actually the story that i just started off here with duncan is an interesting segue into your book. it's about having to say something no one on your team wants to hear. what do you think of what the lieutenant governor put out

there? >> well, first of all, good for him. there needs to be more jeff duncan's. he said i disagree with president biden on policy issues . watching those clips of people who have nothing -- what does mitch mcconnell have to lose? he is at the end of his political career. mitch mcconnell has been a high ranking member of republican leadership for years. he has nothing to lose. what he has to lose is where he is in the history books. by answering that question the way he did, people will look at him like, wow, that wasn't exactly courageous or bold. i don't know why this is a hard question to answer for so many answers. >> it's interesting because bill barr when you listen to that answer gave the same predicate at jeff duncan meaning i think -- i don't love

either of these guys. i think it's the lesser of two evils but i believe donald trump will do less damage than joe biden. jeff duncan says jo like joe biden but my god look at the country. he will do much less damage than donald trump. >> elections in four years. bill barr when he talks about progressive policies, the additional reporting suggests it's things like the risk to gas stoves. you are saying the risk to gas stoves is more than our risk to democracy and having our voices heard. >> jen, far be it for me to put you in bill barr's shoes -- we know why tim scott embarrasses himself on tv. he wants to be vice president. but to bill barr, mitch mcconnell. why? is it close to power? they believe donald trump will get reelected? >> i think there is the tim

scott category as you said embarrassing to watch, cringey. i watched it many times. many of them want to be close to power and they assume or have this thought in their mind that maybe donald trump will go away. maybe he will go to jail. maybe he will die, not to be too morbid. who knows what is in their minds. maybe i will be behind the oval office. the other considering is the one you mentioned, of course, of all these people -- bill barr also. that guy won't be in government again. to me, those are people that are fearful of the mob coming out against them. fearful of the pro-trump mob, the maga mob. threats are a real thing that you discussed frequently on morning joe. but they are fearful of that group, his supporters maybe some are in the business community but more the mob out there. i understand that. but, you know what, there are people who are -- sarah matthews was a deputy press

secretary in the white house. she has said i don't agree with joe biden but i feel the threat is existential, i will support him. she is a woman about 30 years old, if that. bill barr, have some courage here. >> i mean, that's the thing. you have these women like cassidy hutchison willing to stand up. and others that were willing to stand up and speak out. and with bill barr, you are right, i think so much is just afraid of this mob, being concerned about that. we have seen it with rudy giuliani, just this desperate dire for relevance. >> yeah. >> if joe biden is reelected, then leonard leo and his $1.4 billion is not going to be deciding who will be on the

supreme court. if leonard is $1.4 billion do help decide like who will -- basically bought on to the supreme court then you have bill barr that is extraordinarily relevant because they are catholic culture warriors, fellow travelers and barr will be relevant one way or another that way. >> i keep wondering to myself -- i don't know if you feel this way -- when he does an interview, why are you doing this interview? your answers are confusing. your position is contradictory. you are pushed on the same questions and they never make sense. i don't understand why he is doing all these interviews. it may be relevance as joe said but he is not helping himself become a convincing person out there in terms of his argument.

>> i will say also, you know, i just gave the cynical reason why. there is also, willie, the less cynical reason why and it's again, being a culture warrior who was around in the 1960s, on college campuses -- i believe columbia. i read a story about how he was on columbia. i said it here before. i remember the first time i campaigned in january of 1994 knocking on doors and after knocking all day i went back and my parents said what did you learn. i said, well, i learned that you are on the side of jane fonda or john wayne. no middle ground. that was in 1994, 30 years ago. and about 25 years before that, you had the chaos on college campuses and the streets. you name it.

and there was this bright red line that divided the john wayne's from the jane fonda's. this prism through which they saw the world. there are a lot of people that went through that time that will never vote for a democrat or ever vote for a republican because of how their youth was shaped. >> and they are getting reminders of that on the campuses the last couple of weeks. jonathan, you have written about this in your book which is out in paperback, i should point out. this idea that that was an off- ramp, a big off-ramp for a lot of republicans. they took it briefly. lindsay graham pounding that lectern. i'm done, i'm out. then he gets harassed at the airport famously and flips back. kevin mccarthy going to mar-a- lago. there are so many moments when they could have said good-bye to donald trump. it's a choice. they made the choice to rush

back to his side. >> they made that choice time and time again. you illustrated a few of those examples. another was when the rnc put language in the official platform dealing january 6th legitimate political discourse. the big lie was simply part of the politics. up next, there is still six months left until the presidential election. and some voters are already experiencing election fatigue. we will talk about how important it is to stay engaged in this high stakes race. gaged in this high stakes race. (♪♪) [shaking] itchy pet? (♪♪) with chewy, save 20% on your first pharmacy order so you can put an end to the itch. get flea and tick medication delivered right to your door. [panting] our biggest challenge? uncertainty. hidden fees, surcharges... who knows what to expect!

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this is the choice. it's trump versus biden and rfk junior and his brain worm. you right in your latest piece for van night identify at the fair, how to survive the forever election, the post- pandemic, post insurrection political environment is liable to make anyone feel deeply tired and news avoid dant. people are scared. they remember the ill conceived mood around the 16 election when they were sure the normal candidate would win and they didn't. even today i sometimes get stopped on the street by wondering if people should set their expectations accordingly. is it going to be all right,

they ask? i can't tell you it will all right because i don't know. i know what trump promises to do if he is back in office and it's the stuff of nightmares. that may make some voters want to close their eyes, shut their ears and tune politics out of their daily life, the only way we can avoid it is by paying attention so that what happened in 2016 doesn't happen in 2024. molly, temperature us more about this? there is real fatigue about trump, about this election in general and we are six months away. but it's the stakes of the election. it couldn't be higher. >> i want to say one thing about this court case. i think that this guy is the evangelical's pick and an adult film star is sitting in criminal court talking about having sex with him in her 20s. i'm just saying i don't think we should be so cynical that

this is priced in. this will be a turnout election. his people are his people but if they decide not to go and vote which they might, there is so many unknowns. the point of this piece is that we are a full six months away from the election. i don't think we really are going to see the run up until three months and i do think i had jen on my podcast. she has talking about the election that she thinks the closest to maybe this obama reelect. there are a lot of relevant recent historical examples that we can point to. it's scary. not like he is running against mitt romney. he is running against somebody that decided he would weaponize and change the entire federal government and every arm of it the trump campaign. >> i think strangely enough and i won't repeat all the things

tina said but i think weirdly enough it may end up being "time" magazine interview. "time" magazine that many thought was dead and not relevant. that time interview may, in fact, be one of the most interviews and that "time" magazine issue maybe one of the most important pieces of journalism in 2024 because that encapsulates in trump's own words far better than we could ever do what he wants to do in 2025 and i suspect that may cut through with exhausted voters, with nervous voters more than the stormy daniels testimony. >> well, yeah, joe. look, from the biden campaign standpoint, if they had a choice between the nonstop coverage of porn stars and this

trial or having nonstop coverage of donald trump saying in his own words what he plans to do getting reelected, they would rather here that and twice on sunday. i would like to urge any mainstream news organization, nonright wing that gets donald trump to an interview, please, please video. we must have video. that is, i think, joe, i'm not being snide about it but it's the thing that will help things like that, the clarity to break through. we have the images of trump talking about what he plans to do getting reelected. those would be on television all day long. they would crowd out some of the discussion of the stormy daniels. i think donald trump, who knows what the campaign now things. it's unclear if they think that "time" magazine interview was a faux paw or not and if he could

sit with another journalist like the one that did that story we all said, we agree there is an uncertainty here, an unknowable if trump gets convicted. what if there is a hung jury in terms of the politics. donald trump stands up and says i said this was a witch hunt, politically motivated. now the jury has proven me right. he stands up and crows that he is vindicated on some level. does that help him with the image that he is trying to put across to the voters that needs to get, he is indefeatable. the man cannot be knocked down. you can try. throw everything you got at him but he keeps on ticking. that is an image he likes for himself. do you think that benefits him if he gets the hung jury. >> i do. i think it's likely that he will get a hung jury. it will be hard to get all 12

of those jurors to find him guilty of this. on appeal if there is a conviction to uphold that. we have seen this before, john, where there is a hung jury and whoever is part of that will start talking about -- of course everybody on other news networks and everybody in trump's orbit will go we told you he was innocent. we told you all along he was innocent. this is a witch hunt. you can finish all those sentences for me. so, yeah, i think it will to a degree but we are talking about a small number of voters in wisconsin and michigan, pennsylvania and north carolina, georgia. the question is -- and arizona. at the end of the day are they going to care more about that or abortion, about just the

sheer exhaustion that donald trump brings. i suspect at the end of the day when they go into the voting booth, especially if this hung jury happens in may or early june, we are going to see just one poll lifetime after another unfold before our eyes between june and the first tuesday of november. coming up, academy award winning actor j.k. simmons will join us to talk about his new thriller. talk about his new thriller. nothing dims my light like a migraine. with nurtec odt, i found relief. the only migraine medication that helps treat and prevent, all in one. to those with migraine, i see you. for the acute treatment of migraine with or without aura and the preventive treatment of episodic migraine in adults. don't take if allergic to nurtec odt. allergic reactions can occur, even days after using. most common side effects were nausea, indigestion, and stomach pain.

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he inspired us with whiplash, made us laugh and now the feel good hit of the summer. quite a trailer for the movie you can't run forever. the thriller depicts a serial killer as he chases after miranda cooper in the montana wilderness. one family's love may make his killing spree more difficult

than he expected. j.k. simmons, i watched the movie and i got to say about two minutes into it i go, okay, this is a little different. this is not what i expected. talk about what drew you to the movie. >> the script is my go to answer. in this case it was cowritten by my wife. that was part of the draw. the whole movie is a family affair. our daughter is in it and our son did the score. >> wow. >> our son joe, sorry. joe did the score, yeah. >> we were talking about this before we started here. you have played an incredibly wide variety of characters. you get to cover a lot of things. i think of you as cuddly,

juno's dad, the farmer's insurance spokesperson. is there a particular challenge to playing someone who is, you know, one of the most morally degraded -- any serial killer as bad a human being as can happen. is that a challenge for an actor or just another part. >> it's a great challenge playing a psycho path. a great way to get out your demons and i go home at night feeling more loving and cuddly. >> you did this project with your wife. you have a family where everybody is in the business. was it weird working together? >> it was not weird. michelle and i worked together before. she has written and directed things that i have been in and there is obviously a comfort level there and kind of a

shorthand that even more than a shorthand at times. sometimes it's just a look between takes and i go okay, all right, all right. i know what i want you to do differently in take two and no words need to be said. >> it's amazing how many people in your business have been working with their family and like it. my question, this is your career, when you think back over this career, broadway, television, movies, what are like the three roles that have been for you -- you think of landmark roles, that changed your career, most significant, maybe not the favorite but the moments that changed things for you as a professional? >> a couple of them were early on, theater roles. i was a replacement in the original broad way production of a few good men. then 30 years later i am

working on being the ricardos. that role in and of itself was a real career highlight. juno another one that sort of took me from the perception of -- after 20 years of theater, the first thing that a lot of people saw me in was oz. >> dark. >> slightly dark character. so, to be the kind cuddly juno's dad was a real boon to the way sort of audiences and the business viewed me as an actor. then the opportunity to work with my wife on her films including this latest one is just, you know, a real great sort of full circle family/business experience. >> will you go back to theater? how important is theater in your overall? >> it is. it has been 30 years almost since i was on stage for

anything other than a benefit here or there. there is something brewing right now. it's possible i will be back on stage in 2025. i'm hoping that comes together. >> joe, i think you need to go online and look up the pictures of this man and the prep he did for the justice league. you were jacked. i mean jacked. >> what do you mean was? i'm still here. >> he looks like arnold schwarzenegger in these pictures. it's not too late for us, joe. look at that. >> man. come on, now. >> when you share the screen with that guy, you got to put in the time in the gym. >> well, listen. we are such huge fans and we are so grateful that you came on the show and excited for other people to get out and watch the movie. it's a real thriller. you can't run forever.

it will be in theaters and available on demand may 17th. j.k. simmons, thank you so much. greatly appreciate it. >> thank you all. don't go away. we have a second hour of morning joe on this sunday morning coming up after this break. morning coming up after this break.

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good sunday morning to you and welcome back to "morning

joe weekend." we have a lot more to cover. let's jump right in. nbc news has learned through multiple sources that michael cohen will begin his testimony in donald trump's hush money trial on monday. trump's former lawyer is expected to be on the stand for several days. yesterday adult film star stormy daniels finished testifying. the former president's attorneys calling her credibility into question during a contentious cross- examination. >> the third week of donald trump's criminal trial ending with a dramatic confrontation. it was a combative two-days. trump said it never happened. prosecutors accused the former president of buying her silence

to deceive voters in 2016 and doctoring the internal business records to cover it up. >> defense attorney susan necheles attempting to put daniels on trial highlighting her accounts of certain details from that night to insinuate she is a liar by highlighting her time in the porn industry, it gave her a lot of experience in making phony stories about sex appear to be real. daniels defiant responding, wow, that's not how i would put it. the sex in the films is very much real like what happened to me in that room. the question and testimony this week briefly delving into the $130,000 payment. michael cohen made it to daniels days before the election. the linchpin of the state's case. instead, the defense trying to cast daniels as hungry for money and fame and determined

to help put mr. trump behind bars because it would help her bottom line pointing to past tweets mocking his legal woes. her current catalog of merch including a candle depicting her as stormy st. of indictment. you are celebrating the indictment by selling things from your store. daniels shooting back not unlike mr. trump. >> what a week in court. jonathan, mon dan we look ahead to michael cohen. you are following this given the book and the work you do for us and politico. what can we expect out of michael cohen's testimony and will the defense go after him just as they did stormy daniels. >> that is a safe bet. michael cohen is the

blockbuster witness of the trial. stormy daniels brought sizzle but perhaps her testimony in some ways unnecessary. some of the drier stuff by the accountants and other trump aides more important. but cohen is the nexus of the scheme, the enterprise. his testimony is important and perhaps unlike stormy daniels necessary. he has significant credibility issues. we know that. he lied to congress. he went to prison. he is someone that the defense will argue has a real ax to grind against donald trump. he was trump's loyal right hand man. fixer. couldn't me as one of hundreds of reporters that got threatening reporters from cohen all the time when you wrote something about donald trump. he denounced trump and takes no opportunity to miss attacking him. being in new york city, michael cohen is a figure. everyone has their michael

cohen story. he is key. he could make the prosecution case or and mine it. >> this is where the magic of courtroom trials and prosecutors, defense lawyers will come to life. what the jury sees here is either going to be someone who is not credible as you said, who has an ax to grind with the former president or someone who was closer to trump than almost anyone, closer to -- in closs proximity to these alleged crimes. he saw it all. that is where the skill set of these prosecutors and where is this going to come to life. i do expect it will be dramatic. we will see the two men face off in court. that will be awkward as well. so, i think this is a question of what each juror is going to see. and it's kind of uncontrollable after a certain point. this is why we can't predict what will happen because this jury is going to get two

different stories. the one thing is that michael cohen since denouncing trump has been fairly consistent. so, i think the former president also has a lot of credibility issues. let's not forget that. not the most credible defendant. >> i'm curious what your thoughts are watching trump's trial play out. some people on the democratic side say it would be better to have him out there saying crazy things at his rallies. i disagree. where do you come down on this. >> i don't think this trial is having much impact. i don't think people are paying that much attention to it. i thought it was very interesting to read peggy noonan how she said the race is coming down to things are pretty well set. it gets down to economics. i just don't think this is going to have that much of an

impact at all. i think what it will get down to is how do people feel about their situation. the situation today, how they feel about the future. it's always the pocketbook. i don't think this trial will take away from that thundering effort to try to decide how people feel about the economy. the biden people have to start making a case that things were not so great under trump and here is what is happening with them. they have a big challenging forward and they can't count on trump's mistakes to win the election. >> we have lots more to get to this hour. "morning joe weekend" continues after a short break. oe weekend after a short break.

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nbc news confirmed that

former presidential candidate nikki haley is making her slow return to public life after dropping out of the republican primary race in march. she is expected to attend a retreat in charleston, south carolina to thank about 100 of her biggest donors. she is not expected to discuss her political future or endorse other campaigns. she did not speak to donald trump after she withdraw from the republican primary and the two have not spoken since. this comes as haley continues her strong showing in state primaries despite already suspending her campaign. she won more to drive this point home than 21% of the vote in indiana's primary this week. in april she won more than 16% of the vote in pennsylvania and 13% in alabama's primary. that could be a warning sign, i think, for the trump campaign that claimed they are not

concerned about haley's supporters and trying to gain them. what do you think about the nikki haley factor and the fact that biden has the ability to campaign? >> well, first of all, there are nontrumpers out there. the question is in a polarized country, are they willing to cross overand vote for joe biden. yet to be determined. i break this down in three ways. i made a little note here. the economy. the biden people say the economy is great. most people across the country say inflation is killing me. costs me more from a small business person, i have to pay employees more in wages. equipment costs more. interest rates are going up. i don't know what i am going to do. normal folks out there shopping, regular people like you, go to the grocery store, everything costs more and what people say is when trump was in, goes things were better. you look at the inflation rate,

it was better. on the economic side, biden keeps saying bedenomics works. people across the country are saying it's not working. secondly is the issue of wars. what i hear people saying regularly is, hey, you know what, we didn't have wars when donald trump was president. i mean you got to listen to people. you can't just fight with them you have to hear what they say. thirdly is the issue of strength. joe biden doesn't look strong. so, people look at that and say is that the person i want for president and they look at trump, he ain't my cup of tea either but he is somebody that has confidence and exudes that. that's what the biden people have to focus on. to win, they have to break this down and remind hispanics about the things that donald trump said. they have to do a better job of talking about the economics. it gets down to that. and that's why, right now,

because of all that, job is trailing in these critical states that are going to make the difference in this election. don't count on fumbles. you have to get out there and do stuff. it's a big challenge. >> so -- go for it. >> he talks about interesting threes. campaigns have a decision to make less than six months out. spend your time trying to convince voters what they feel is wrong and that you are correct or you can meet them where they are and meet their vote. for a while, the biden campaign was leaning too much on the former but i think they have decided to pursue the later. you you have seen biden talking about the economic tour and what they will do to address affordable housing, home ownership, capital to businesses. while we may not discuss it

here in the beltway if you will or -- i do think in the states, people are hearing a little more. but there are some key contrasts. when the governor says that folks say, joe biden doesn't look strong, what does that mean? i think having a conversation with voters will make a difference. i don't put a lot of stock in these battleground polls that haven't happened yet, this far out. it's not labor day. if you have to look at what is actually happening on the ground, what people are saying when they meet these elected officials and administration officials and surrogates. they are liking what they are hearing. okay, a vision for the future. what is donald trump's vision. retribution and a dictator on day one. what is record gdp and affordable housing when the man is a dang dictator. that is what this election is

about. this is not a run of the mill election. donald trump is telling us what he will do. >> i would add reproductive rights to treat women when they are severely ill is one of the bottom lines of this campaign. the biden campaign is leaning into that because donald trump has done tremendous damage to women's health in america, not an understatement. absolute fact. if you want health care in certain states and you need anything that looks like an abortion, you got a problem and you are on your own and you can bleed out. that's what he has done for american women. i want to get to joe and his piece about the most dangerous woman in america. can i ask you, what do you make of these guys, suisun new, bill barr and tim scott on "meet the press" saying he won't accept the results of the election or

won't answer the question. they are against trump. they talk about it so articulately. then you have like the former lut low tide governor of georgia able to step up and have a conviction about donald trump being a danger to america. but these guys, former attorney general and then -- suisun new was out there for nikki haley and aggressively against donald trump for real legitimate reasons. what is this? what is wrong with these people? how do you explain this? >> i think the sununu is trying to preserve his future in the republican party. when i didn't endorse trump then i endorsed joe biden that was the end of my political career in the republican party at that moment in time. they are looking how they can be viable. why bill barr is doing it, i have no idea. it has been a mystery.

you are in then you are out. when you are out, you look in the mirror and you think about what you did when you were in. so, conscience has to play a big role in terms of how people feel. we have seen people who put their careers on the line. you can see liz cheney. but she holds her head high. it's a mystery to me. when i talk about these things and this campaign, i'm not in the beltway. i'm in ohio. i'm in the middle of the country. and i don't say the things i say today because i'm one way or the other. i'm like an umpire calling signals. i got to tell you, the biden folks are going to have to get moving and they have to get stronger and wake up. i agree with a lot of what symone said but not all of it. they have a ways to go. in june, voters will take a look at how the economy is and another look in september. that will determine this election. we have lots more to get to this hour. morning joe be weekend continues after a short break. d

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i want to talk about the fed rate prediction but, first, what is happening right now in britain. interest rates at 16 year high. the government is in free-fall right now. it looks like labor when the elections are called, they will sweep to victory. talk about that and i know you don't follow it everyday but do you think we are looking at be election most likely this fall in britain. >> there has toby early next year. it's a question of when it is decided to call it. the betting is in fall some

time. tori had a long run in power the country is not doing that well. the economy is slow and they have a productivity problem, investment problem and the kinds of things that touch the brits, a real problem with the national health service, which is under funded and having trouble delivering the kind of health care it used to. there is an enormous unhappiness in britain about the state of economy. the elections did not go well and as you said, i think the probability is that there will be a labor prime minister in less than 12 months from now. >> you look at britain's economic numbers, america's economic numbers and the brits have a good reason to scratch their heads wondering what the complaining is about because they would do anything to have an economy as strong as ours right now. sometimes a strong economy

causes problems on wall street, causes problems with car loans, causes problems with house loans and inflation. obviously wall street and america is looking at what the fed will do on interest rates. talk about that and talk about the prediction of what we may see in the year ahead? >> sure. every country in europe would love to have our economy. we talked about that before, not even close looking at germany, france, italy, we are the star among the developed world. that brings challenges. interest rates and getting interest rates down and inflation under control has been our challenge. so, last week the fed did not lower interest rates. we didn't think they were going to. not that long ago, back in january, the market thought interest rates would drop sharply as inflation came under control, get down to 3.5% by the end of this year, by election day. as the economy has stayed as strong as it stayed, the market

has revised those projections. the market thinks a modest decline in interest rates between now and the end of the year. that was implicit in the fed's decision not to lower interest rates. people expected it some months ago. interestingly on friday we have a jobs report which i will talk about in a minute, not quite as strong as we expected. as a result, the market got more slightly optimistic about interest rate cuts but it looks like they will be higher for longer. what does that men for consumers going to the polls in november? mortgage rates, the rate that affects most americans is not coming down the way we hoped. it peaked at 8% last year and it started to come down as we thought interest rates and inflation, we could get it under control. but it stalled out and looking at mortgage rates of 7.4% which is hugely high. home sales as a result of that

are down 35%. tough for first-time home buyers. all of this unfortunately is not the best news as we head into the fall. >> talk about what inflation looks like at an annualized rate. if it keeps going the way it did the past quarter, what is inflation going to be on a yearly basis. >> the problem is, as you suggested that in the most recent quarter -- this is inflation gauge that the fed likes, the pc in any event. on quarter to quarter basis shot up 1.4%. that is an annual rate of 5%. nobody expects it back up there. these are core services. this focuses in on labor, takes out energy, food, housing. this is the stuff that drives the ultimate inflation rate. why is that happening? it's happening for a couple of reasons. first of all, wage increases have stayed high. we all want people to get wage

increases. you want people to make more money. too much wage increase feeds into inflation. so, the most recent report which came out in the last few days shows wage costs, the whole cost -- back up to 4.5%. in the early 2023 period. that is not ideal. that, however, has driven a lot of demand, a lot of sales. people buying a lot of stuff. so, you can see the consumer demand is above the average. the point is that you have higher wages drive people buying more, drives inflation. again, we want people to make higher wages, buy more, but we can't have inflation at this rate and expect interest rates to come down. coming up, despite the images splashed all over the airwaves and newspaper covers over the last few weeks, new polling suggests the majority of college students took no

part in pro-palestinian protests. we will dig into the numbers, next. dig into the numbers, next.

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♪♪ more than a dozen conservative federal judges won't be hiring law clerks who attend columbia university because of how the school has responded to recent pro- palestinian protests on campus.

wow. the 13 judges appointed by former president trump sent a letter to the university's president and dean of the law school this week explaining that they have, quote, lost confidence in columbia as an institution of higher education. it reads columbia has instead become an incubator of bigotry. columbia has disqualified itself from educating the future leaders of our country. the dean of clumps law school put out a statement in support of students saying they are consistently sought out by leading employers in the public and private sectors including the judiciary. >> joining us is the ceo of generation lab, cyrus. this polling was first published yesterday examining how college students feel about the ongoing protests at their

campus across the country. great to see you. what did you find? we have talked about this the last couple of weeks. there is polling that showed it was like the 15th osh 16th most important issue, gaza. what did you find? >> we have seen the steady stream from college campuses. we went into the field to test the assumption that this was the number one issue driving young voters we have got the largest -- young people across the country. a poll of 1,250 college students across hundreds of campuses to see how important is gaza. we have seen the footage. we fund number one issue not gaza. it was health care. number two student debt, number three was the real estate. gaza came in last. consistent with the polling that you mentioned.

i think the big thing to consider here is young people tend to look at this issue like the rest of the electorate. not too different. >> in the follow on that, you asked the students have you participated in the demonstrations on campus. what did you find. >> 92% have not participated in the protests. everything we have seen on the screens the last few weeks, that is about 8% of college students. so very, very slim majority. of those who have not protested, which is 2% or so. some are favorable to the palestinians. >> what is your sense of the college students that you polled, the campus you have been to, will they vote or not? >> yes, there is huge, huge energy. we have tracked this from 2020 up until now. we have seen rising intention to vote. inning the question is what issues drive them going into

the last few days, conventional wisdom, whatever wisdom i got, would have been that gaza would be the big issue to swing young voters. the data says otherwise. >> i covered a protest recently. the one commonalty between both sides, they are all emotional about it and animated of course but to a person they said screw biden, screw trump. so, if you vote, will they vote for they are one of these guys or rfk opportunity or what will happen? they don't seem happy with the nominees of the two major parties. >> where did you run into those folks. you met them at a protest. >> for sure. >> not at the bars. >> so, at the end of the day -- this makes me think if i watch law an order for 20 years and i go into an actual courtroom for the first time, i'm waiting for the surprise witness to get

wheeled out, who everybody thought was dead, the jury outburst -- >> self interest at the end of the day, they will vote. >> self interest they will vote. what we found, we released a poll with cnbc, i found biden is leading trump by one. rfk gets 29% of the vote. >> what is the age frame. >> that was 18 to 34. biden won young voters 18 to 29, he won them by 24 points in 20. >> it's one now. >> plus one. >> so, rfk, junior, is effectively we don't like our choices and there is another guy standing there, we will go with that? >> exactly. >> biden is leaking youth support. it's impossible to look at the data saying biden is in a great position with young voters. the reason for that is not gaza, believe it or not it's

not gaza. >> what is it? >> the kitchen table issues. the boring stuff. >> coming up, why the art of small talk is the key to making connections. sup? -who are you? i'm your inner child. get in. listen, what you really need in life

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what's this? your wings. light 'em up! gentlemen, it's a beautiful... ...day to fly. you think that we are making a mistake as a society because we don't teach small talk to our children. >> yes, we are the personality country. talk, free speech yet kids get shoved into school like study hard and it will be a success. is that really? you can count really hard or have a great personality. kids walking in, teach them this is the big leagues. you are going into society.

your life has been here, not with your family. you better get it going. walk in and just memorize a couple of phrases. not sure fire but close. teach your kids first day of preschool, is it me or is this bus driver a little off. >> colin quinn on why he thinks society is making a mistake by not teaching small talk to children. he is one of the famous people that discussed though master conversations with strangers in a new audio book titled the art of small talk. kasie wilson and jessica st. clair -- >> hello. >> now i'm self-conscious about my chatter here. i hope it's going well so far. were we good in the commercial break. >> we are not accredited university yet, pending. >> if ted talk is less

listening, we are ted avail. >> let's talk about when you think we lost the art of small talk. was it phones, covid? >> for casey and i we love small talk so much, we are texting our favorite exchanges. if i'm in the bargain aisle of t.j. maxx i will text her the transcript. >> if i say to someone christmas lights going up earlier and earlier, i'm look oh. then covid came and we felt like a cord was pulled out of the wall because we are extroverted. with covid and kids on phones, they don't small talk. >> how do you start? >> we like to ask a question. everybody wants to talk about themselves ultimately or could miss serration. >> this one loves to complain. you can always find an enemy,

the dmv, is someone taking too long in the bathroom. >> we will die in this line. and we like to place, you know, whoever you are talking to in a position of power. you know so much about the news. i'm impressed. >> or bird watching. >> malcolm gladwell that you might be surprised is our boss, what do you do if you get stuck with a boring person. he said if you think somebody is boring, it's because you are boring. you are not asking the question questions. you are seven questions away from somebody's passion. when people talk about their passion they are interesting. >> the famous talk is the weather. the boring, i shut down when people talk about the weather. it feels like you conceded defeat. so, it's raining outside. >> it's not about the content. weather is fine. keep it light. it's about contact with other

people. >> every time you have even a stupid exchange about the weather, you get a hit of dopamine and so are they. malcolm made us do research. what is this, a book record. >> it increases your life, your longevity. so, it's a small -- >> is that true? >> yes. >> why are we screaming. >> do you like it? >> i can do tire sizes, what do you put in the refrigerator. >> you will live forever. >> jennifer i feel like you are a good small talker. >> i moved a lot as a kid. you had to learn to -- you had to learn to observe, figure out where to fit in, what the cool kids were talking about and how to dive in. >> we say, this sounds creepy. also be scanning for a mark. one of the ways you signal -- this is creepy. one of the ways you signal that you are down to clown, we say

of a fix your face what we call a mona lisa smile. a little upturn. you are not unwell with full teeth. full teeth says be careful but a little like this -- small talk can be nonverbal. just a smile and that gives you the dopamine hit. >> or a hand on an arm. >> we like to touch. >> are there things we should avoid in small talk. what do you want to stay away from. >> some of the bigger topics like your family -- you are small talking to extended family at thanksgiving. my family is prone to breaking dishes over people's heads. >> they are italian and from rhode island. >> they are at odds. you want to skate above. we think it will do more to bridge a gap politically than trying to get in each other's faces. >> find a commonalty for sure.

>> oprah, sports. >> sometimes the kardashians can get things going. >> true crime. >> everybody loves murder. >> everybody had a murder in their small town. we are six degrees from a murder. >> we can all feel we haven't been murdered. >> lucky for that. >> there is a rule we have -- this is dumb. d/b/a b, don't be a bummer. keep it light. >> like true crime. >> that is light. >> not your drama which -- we don't want to take advantage of someone else's drama. >> we don't want to hear your cat is dying in the first questions. go shallow before going deep. >> close with my cat died. >> yes. everyone's cat is dying. >> start with the weather finish with my cat is dying. great advice. >> one more, don't be afraid to

lie. >> we lie all the time. >> just say i love that tie. it's not great. you know. >> we do like your tie. >> very counterintuitive. >> make someone feel good about themselves. >> too much truth in this day and age. >> this is good advice. >> thank you. >> the audio book, the art of small talk is available now. thank you both. good to see you. up next, the stars of broadway's revival of the classic musical cabaret joins us next. you are watching "morning joe weekend." t. you are watching "morning joe weekend."

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mobile savings are calling. visit xfinitymobile.com to learn more. doc? outside it's winter. in here it's so hot. don't go away. who knows, tonight we may lose the battle. >> that is a look at the latest revival of the classical musical cabaret. it has earned nine tony tom mine nations this time around including best revival of a

musical and best performance by actor and actress in a leading role. they are here with us now. joining us, eddie, who plays the emcee and gayle rankin who plays sally boles. >> i love watching you, eddie, making sure that you nailed your lines and chore ography. >> that is awake up reminder of what i am doing. >> you will be back at it. won't you? congratulations on the nine nominations. this is a beloved musical. when you heard this was floating out there, pitched to you, what were your initial thoughts about playing sally? >> i mean it's the female hamlet of musical theater. i jumped at the chance and i wanted to work with eddie and our director is a visionary.

a streetcar named desire in london and, yes, it's a cabaret for our times. i felt like i was ready to play our sally, our 2024 sally. >> eddie, for people that may not have seen cabaret in any of the incarnations, can you set the scene where we are and what this cabaret is as the emcee runs the show. >> it's such a loved piece and done beautifully before, we felt if we do it again, we had to bring something new. one of the things that we were king to do was to create an entire event of an evening so the second you step off 52nd street into the theater, you go down these allies, bars, dancers, musicians. by the time you come into the theater proper, hopefully you left all your troubles and memories of the day outside and

you are charged and prepped into the world of germany to be kind of seduced and entertained and made to think -- that's what we were aspiring to. >> august wilson, this well known theater to fit this experience. >> tom scott, our amazing scenic designer and costume designer, amazing nods in the award seasoning. extraordinary. it's deeply immersive and fun for us. it helps us create what we are trying to do. >> with that immersion, interaction with the audience, western talking at the break there is a thirst from audience post-pandemic to be in a crowd. do you feel that? >> we are feeling it so hugely. one of the joys for me is emcee, the other character are the audience. so, within this space, which is

in the round, i get to kind of slither in amongst the audience, interact with them and it's joyful. you feel there is a sort of profound human interaction now. and it means for me, also, each night it changes depending on who the audience is and the reaction. that's why we do theater to have a different experience each night and try to keep aspiring for something. >> we were talking a minute ago, you were watching backstage, the interview, the other show that is strong in this season and the connection to the present. you can't help but see some of it in your show as well. >> absolutely. i got to listen to shana talk about it being under attack. to be playing a woman who has a

really personal and serious decision to make inside of this play is a big responsibility. and i take it seriously. i feel glad that i get to do that with my work to kind of interact with politics and the women of today and the past and be in conversation with all of that. >> eddie, you said this show is a bit of a warning about the joy that we see inside the kit kat klub and how quickly it can be taken away. >> i see the piece. there is a reason it seems relevant. there is sadness in that that we haven't learned from our mistakes. i see the pieces exactly that, a compassionate warning. winning over humanity and that conversation. but what is amazing what they have done, they created a piece

of work that is so joyful and playful and then yet moves to a place that is moving and for me that's what an evening at the theater should be. it should challenge you in all those ways while being entertaining. >> a unique experience. beautifully done. congratulations to you both. cabaret at the kit kat club is playing here on brad way. good to see you. >> thank you so much. >> that's all the time we have this weekend. we will be back tomorrow morning at 6:00 a.m. eastern kicking off a new week of morning joe. until then, enjoy the rest of your weekend. nd. good morning. it's sunday, may 12. happy mother's day.