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tv   Chris Jansing Reports  MSNBC  May 13, 2024 10:00am-11:01am PDT

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go? do you think they'll be done today with michael cohen and then cross examination. >> they're experienced prosecutors, moving it fast. i'm very impressed with them. the things that remain, we've heard michael cohen tried to delay the payments to stormy daniels per the directions of candidate trump. when time runs out, there are two telephone calls documented in telephone records between michael cohenened donald trump. we'll hear that, and presumably we'll hear him say, fine, go ahead, make the payment. it will be unusual for michael cohen to make those on his own. that's usually not what lawyers do. they don't pay $130,000 for a
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client without guarantee of a repayment. we'll hear about notes that allen weisselberg took in documenting the repayment. i think those notes also have michael cohen's handwriting on it. i think you'll hear more about those notes. those notes, it's exhibit 35 -- the reason i remember it, incredibly strong proof for the prosecution. mary mcchord and i -- there's an episode of our podcast talking about just that exhibit and why it is so devastating. and then finally we'll be taken into the oval office, where michael cohen has a conversation with donald trump about the repayment scheme. so, those are the remaining pieces. finally the jury will hear about all of the things that michael cohen has pleaded guilty to, and he'll have to explain why he pled guilty to something he now says he is not guilty of. that might be a bit of a difficult part of the testimony,
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and then we'll get to cross examination. that for michael cohen is kind of the ball game. the direct should go swimmingly, it is going swimmingly, but i think the afternoon's cross examination will be where the proof is in the pudding. >> exhibit 35, we want to get on the screens for you. we'll work on that on our end, so we can go through it in detail, as andrew was just saying. $130,000 is a lot of money for anybody to pull out of their pocket and pay for a story. maybe not for donald trump, but certainly somebody like michael cohen. thirdly, i've got great news for everybody. chris jansing has taken her hour break for the day and is joining us once again for special coverage. >> and cookies to celebrate ana
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cabrera's birthday. look, $130,000 for donald trump may not be a lot of money in terms of his overall net worth or what he wanted you to believe it was, but $130,000 is a lot of money. >> there was testimony about that. >> testimony after testimony after testimony, he's a micromanager and knew where the money was. i'm joining this stellar team of reporters and experts. we also have vaughn hillyard outside the courthouse. andrew, i want to go back to you. as i've been following it, the testimony the last 15 minutes does a couple things. it claims that trump himself issued the order he did it to help his campaign. i note the final piece of evidence is michael cohen saying, i was following
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directions. so, if you are the prosecution and you want to end on a dramatic moment, how do you structure what is left of michael cohen's testimony to leave the jury with the idea that you have done, as a prosecutor, what you needed to do. >> well, we've talked about the remaining key pieces, but i think the one huge piece that the jury has not heard yet is michael cohen saying what he is guilty of, and he's going to have to walk through what he's pleaded to. i assume one of the last things he will say and be asked about is that he has pleaded guilty to this scheme. and that he has gone to jail for this scheme.
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the underling has been held to account, but the person directing it has not. if that's where you are as a juror, and you believe the whole mound of evidence, you know, in terms of why you should care, most people feel like that's not justice. i mean, somebody who is -- it's fine no michael cohen to admit what he did and do his jail time, and allen wiseweisselberg that's the note i would leave on. >> i was expecting something more dramatic than that, and i wonder, there any risk from that. just day, shoots a liar and criminal. >> the judge will fact him that
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mr. cohen pled guilty is not evidence that donald trump is guilty. >> i wouldn't end with that, but you have to go through the checks i would go through each check that donald trump, and legal expenses added on top of that. they have to at some point put his bad acts in there. i always like to put it in the middle, not that i was hiding it. he also pled guilty to tax fraud, which he didn't really commit, so they have to at the out how he's going to do that. that's just stylistic. i would want to end with invoice after invoice and check after check. so that's how i would end it. so that's stylistic.
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>> in fact, it's a common misconception, you need during year testimony to have that moment. >> you really don't. if you get the fact is they can organize it throughout the trial, they're coming into the record that the injure may have trouble, so that's what matters. that's why you shouldn't try to go for that aha moment, especially if it's a hostile witness, they're just going to try to burn you. then you organize it in the end, and that's the time for drama, if you so choose, if that's your style, that's the time to put on the show with the facts that are in and out in the record.
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>> catherine, you want the judge would instruct them even if michael cohen did these things, then donald trump is. but this testimony today is donald trump told me to do it. it ties him directly in. >> legal will you the judge has to instruct them, no, no, no. >> is there any sympathy for michael cohen, possible, you're the fall guy, i've been in jail, you did something to police the boss.
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despite all the evident that donald trump is a multi-manager, detail-oriented boss. >> i want to bring in former prosecutor, david, talk to us about what you have heard so far, what the jury has heard, a lot of testimony laying out what happened in this mush money schemes. they're not illegal. they know the facts, sow what does michael cohen's testimony add, in terms of campaign finance, potentially felony as charged, and to the business transactions.
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>> asking myself, if i was on one side or the other, do i just breathe a sigh of relief, and i would not feel and here's the bottom line, you can't convict unless you believe cohen. so his testimony is critical. he said some awkward things. i think they have a puncher's chance, however, it will take more sophisticated cross examination from what i've seen sore far. i've to represent michael cohen. i was a special crimes prosecutors. what i was always afraid the defense would do, hang on a second, what if you don't believe him? let's see how that affects the case, and what if you believe some of it, but overall you doubt. how would that impact the case?
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>> if they handle it the right way, they do have a puncher's chance here. >> do you think in the minds of the jury, the fact this is a story that send him to prison makes it more believable? >> that's the most convincing thing he can say. he can say i pled guilty and went to prison and i did my time. you have two lawyers on this jury. i've seen almost everything, chris, and tried cases in almost every other context, but even for me it's weird for a lawyer to record his own client. you have a lot of circumstantial evidence that the prosecution can use to say, look, disregard that, it's not a big deal, but if it's spun the right way -- when cases like this get lost, not because of strictly legal
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analysis, but because of what jurors gravitate toward. you kasay, hang on a second, there were times realized in your decline's best interest, you had to take steps that this were note completely clear of? only to protect them from themselves. they just have to make you doubt enough. we have a steady stream of folks who have been inside the courtroom as well as the overflour room making their way to our cameras, including lawrence o'donnell, who always has interesting things to say. we're going to take a quick break and be back with more, right after this. break and be b, right after this
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what is your impression of what you saw, lawrence, and what is it like in there? >> you know it's a star witness which district attorney alvin bragg comes in and stays for the entire session? let me just read from nigh notebook the most important thing that the jury heard today -- he wasn't thinking about melania. this was all about the candidate. that is the essence of michael cohen's testimony as it stands now. that was michael describing his attitude about paying off stormy daniels, about the urgency of paying off stormy daniels immediately after the "access hollywood" tape came out he said, i was following
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directions. the most repeated line of his testimony was, "just take care of it." that's michael comen quoting donald trump. >> lawrence, i was thinking of you in your particular frame of reference when you were in the courtroom. if this was an episode of "west wing" as you scripted it, would they just be over the top? and what would the jurors think of michael cohen? >> well, the jurors so far have no reason to think anything about michael cohen. hi demeanor has flawless from the prosecution's standpoint. this is a version of michael cohen we don't see publicly. he is composed and he speaks carefully. his answers are as short as they can be, which is what the prosecutor wants from him. frequently the answers are yes
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and no. there's nothing combative or defensive about him. he will be tested on cross examination. that's what people are waiting for, who will michael cohen be in on cross-examination? whether he can maintain that during kropf-examination is a big mystery as a person and as a witness. >> i think that is an accurate witness. he can be very fragile. he can get quite explosive.
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i wonder if this will change when the prosecution comes up, what donald trump's reaction will be. as i understand it from the document, he's been pretty calm during this portion of michael cohen's testimony. what have you seen? do you expect that to change in. >> first of all, the eye closing, which he does about ten minutes into the proceeding. i think he's trying to prove to us he's actually not sleeping, but the eyes are closed for extended periods of time, and then when he's not doing that, i saw him looking at photographs --ened a i can see over his shoulder what appeared to be crowds possibly photographs of his rallies this weekend.
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the jury doesn't have a particularly easy view of donald trump in this crowded courtroom. they pretty much never look at him, which is unusual. most of the time gyre have a clear view of defendants. they check thumb out from time to time during various points of the testimony. if the jurors could really see how we moved from this, at least trying to i think it's a deliberate act he has just the strangest defendant presence you could ask for. >> lawrence, what about the allies in the courtroom? what have they been like? >> well, not his kids, there's
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no plural. there's one designated trump family member, eric trump. no one also has shown up. there's no suggestion that they will. we'll see. i didn't realize the senators were piling in. i watched donald trump walk in, and i track him all the way. the senators then came in after him. and then just vance, it's very clear all right, the parade is beginning now. as soon as the first recess, the senators disappeared, and that row became completely empty once
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again. senator tuberville, who has been ridiculed of his lack of knowledge through his tenure. he has been ridiculed, but j.d. vance is a serious contender, maybe considered top of the list. and maybe doug burgam since the weekend. >> j.d. vance was on the phone the entire time. tuberville, to his credit, looking straight ahead, taking it all in. >> j.d. vance, there was no reason for him to come -- >> well, lawrence, he tweeted that it's not fair to accuse
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donald trump of falling asleep and not being with it. as he says, he's 39 years old and he was almost falling asleep. >> there you go. they're there to corroborate -- to help with the sleep defense. i guess that's where the vice presidential auditioning begins, with you come in and please help with the sleep defense? lawrence o'donnell, thank you. for more of your observations just tune in to "the last word" time. let me get a big picture, if i can, lisa.
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this was so highly anticipating michael cohen. so far, one of the people that came out early described his testimony at times even boring, but what is your sense of it? and what is your sense of what is to come? he has to keep frequently asking him to give her more. this is a michael cohen who is not only subdued and exceedingly place. he is really trying to listen carefully and stick within the four corners of her questions,
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even when she's expectic additional details. she has to keep prodding him for additional aspects of conversations, for example. having to prod him, do you remember anything during that conversation about melania, for example. that is really evocative of many of the conversations so far. one of things sifts fascinated is watching rashen taking mesh of the man. none of the participants looked like the way they did in the original film. michael cohen is no exception. he is grayer, thinner, quieter, and while merchon way was trying
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to find a take on this witness, and yet, the guy we saw this morning was credible and calm, if not a little freaked out and very nervous to be there this morning. >> lisa, you've seen him testifies in the other kay, the fraud case, so what's your expectation to when he's cross emphasize examined? >> if past is prologue, katy, i'm expecting michael cohen to keep a tighter lid on himself. you're right, in the last rodeo between these two people, michael cohen was also not the
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same, that was just a few months ago. he seems well prepared for this moment. whether he can continue to keep a lid on his temper, but also accept responsibility and give answers that are painful to him. for example, help said at one of point he loved thinks job at the trump organization. from the civil fraud trial, he wouldn't have giving that up that easily. >> suzanne craig, what is your your impressions in terms of the chain of evidence? >> he is really, importantly,
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connected for us a lot of what we have heard was people talking to michael cohen, and we didn't have that connective tissue with donald trump. tyke and time again, we have michael cohen saying he kept donald trump we've already heard he was keep donald trump -- he feld it was 'tis and if at the end of the year i'm sure he also wanted a big bonus. like, for example, we've long heard the tape where donald trump taped -- or where michael cohen taped his boss, donald
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trump, about the payments to karen mcdougal that never ended up going through. in that conversation he says, the reason that he pitched back on that, it was back mickael cohen wanted to make sure i, like everybody else, i think he's been tent tariff, but what is really going to matter is how he holds up on cross, and so far he's provided some very important links today.
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>> i don't think they were rote in some respects. either because of their own polish -- for example, hope hicks is very polished -- or they had an agreement with the prosecution. we have seen people who are very well prepped. i think, like the judge, the jurors are just trying to make measure of the man. he's the second-most uttered name in this courtroom, so to see him in the flesh and try to assess his credibility, i can see it's been described as the wimbledon effect, the ping-pong exchanges.
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. they seem deeply in thought, and really taking this all seriously. what they think of him so far isn't betrayed by their body language or look on their faces. trump and cohen were sort of a match made in hell. when you come upon one person with micromanagerial tendencies and another with hero complexes, you have a lot of conversations. about the conversations that he had with donald trump and donald trump alone. that's the stuff prosecutors need from him. that's what they're getting and that's why the jurors -- even though j.d. vance may be falling asleep, the jurors are not. >> thanks to both of you. your perspectives in that
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welcome back, joining us is lanny davis, so, lanny, i've been watching, as we've been watching, as best we can catch from outside the courtroom, and of course he's been led by the prosecution. and what was his mood going in inches i talked to him last night, and i'm sure the moments were equally looking at us aghast, by we talked briefly. number one, this is the easy pardon. he's well prepared.
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the test will be hostile and vicious at times, no criticism intended there. but the real issues for me and the three of you was to recall how did he do with no judge to preside over unfair questions. jim jordan and mark meadows were there, using names, accusing him of all sorts of horrible things, and on the wall behind him was a big sign on national and international television, liar, liar, pants on fire. i thought i was in the third grade, but no, it was in congress. he's gone through this before, andrea. he did very well that day, because we worked him very hard to keep his voice down, take anything they threw at him by own what he had done, and he
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expressed shame about, and leave it at that. >> can i check in on that. lanny, a lot has happened. it's antipathy, to put it mildly has grown. he's in a much more fragile state. he's got a lot of camp to use her. how. >> i think we disit the night
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before the congressional testimony. i said congratulations, michael, for making the republicans happy if you do that tomorrow. i sat behind him through the entire testimony. my only signal was if he raised his voice, i only had to touch his back. i only did that once. he did very well. i think tomorrow will be the worst of all, and last night when i said that to him, i said are you ready to take a breath, make believe i'm touching your back. >> and there's no one up there on the witness stand, only 15 feet away from the guy whom he used to admire. >> he'll touch his own back.
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he has a great wife and two great children, i've gotten to know the family. he knows this is a challenge about the truth and about ownership. has to own what he calls the dirty deeds he did for ten years for donald trump. every time ahear the word "lie" i plead with my panelists and others. finish the sentence. he lied, yes, but lied for the benefit of donald trump, not himself. he didn't lie to cover up his affair, so that's the complete question. but he said it was wrong, it was evil, eye ashamed, and i take responsibility. that's what he did that day during the congressional hearing. i hope he does it during the cross examination. that's clearly the point the
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prosecution quantities to make. has anyone told him maybe you shouldn't be doing a podcast or wearing that t-shirt of donald trump behand bars, doing the unnecessary things that might color how he is seen by a jury if they happened to see it, or make the judge a bit or wary of hem? >> i certainly don't take advice easily, so mike at has made some mistakes. i certainly do not approve of some of the tweets or on tiktok, but i do believe tomorrow or whenever the cross occurs, he'll be the michael cohen you saw in
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congressional testimony, and if he is provoked, let me stress this. every day i spent months and months with michael cohen with these prosecutors, everything he says is corroborated by a document, by an e-mail or witness. so, this case is created through documentation to crop rate his testimony. we're not just relying him on doing a good job on credible, which i think he will do. it's all backed up, starting with david pecker, and if anybody has any doubts, that's the first legal issue -- was this this money given because of the campaign or because of wanting to be a faithful husband? i'll let the jury decide that question. the second one, did donald trump have reason to know, was he
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willfully blind about reimbursing hush money, which is illegal, as opposed to reimbursing legal expenses was he willfully blind? >> lanny, i want to ask about the idea of all of us having trouble at times controlling or emotions, and take you back to april 9th, 2018, and michael cohen's office gets raided by the fbi. at that time donald trump said something to the effect of that there was a disgraceful situation. it didn't take a month for him to then say -- i'm talking about donald trump very dismissal -- with a little fraction of whoever did my legal work, and
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then he stopped paying his legal bills, and that, to my understanding is when he came to you. he named one of his books "revenge" he's never been shy about what he feels about donald trump. even under cross-examination, do you think he recognizes the best revenge would be for his testimony to be everything prosecutors would want it to be, and even if revenge is his motivation, completely and totally, is that okay? does it matter? >> first of all, a great question. you are correct. all of us, whatever the relationship is, if somebody lets you down or distances themselves when there's trouble,
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you're angry at that. this is donald trump treating almost everyone that way almost everything in their life treats them that way. so michael wrote a book "revenge." that had a double meaning. meaning the revenge of donald trump against michael, as he decided to tell the truth, for his family and for his country. that revenge was about his wife alluding to his father -- his wife's father, as being a member of the gang, threatening michael and really endangering him and his family through his threats as a former president, and then, of course, his compare is based on revenge and retribution. these are two people that don't like each other, but sorry to be so longwinded, he will be michael cohen on the day of the
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testimony, and the day when he was cross-examined in the courtroom, but berg than the day he engaged in a back and forth. i think he'll be at his very best. >> well, we will know how true that turns out to be or not. lanny davis, thank you so much for joining us. >> thank you. joining us now is christy greenburg, who's been in the overflow room, and harry litman, who has actually been in the courtroom. harry, any observations you think are relevant in terms of in the courtroom? and i think what you're expecting, because lanny davis has just suggested he think we'll see a very controlled michael cohen, a en -- even on
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cross-examination. >> that's exactly what we have seen. what i've seen is the quick clip and the sort of un-dynamic presentation by the prosecution. if cohen is smart, he won't do what lanny just said about responding but, but, but? explain ato the cross, which i think we'll see. he'll -- that's what redirect is for. he need to stay calm every second if he can. he's also given new revelations, which i think is the second headline, but i don't want to steal christy's thunder here. >> go ahead, christy. >> yeah, there's lunch where we hear about the fact that donald trump told michael cohen, he got a delay in making these payments because if i become president, well, it's
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irrelevant and if i'm not president, i really don't care. the question will become the payment that ultimately gets made to stormy daniels, was it because of the campaign, was it because of melania. michael cohen makes it clear, he thought he would be back on the market very soon, and really, the question will be looking at that testimony versus someone like madeleine westerhout who told us about how much she respected their relationship and the defense will say, well, who are you going to believe, you know, madeleine westerhout or a convicted liar like michael cohen, and i think the answer so that is in the corroboration. you have the fact that donald trump delayed making that payment to stormy daniels, every excuse to not make the payment. that corroborates michael cohen's story, and you have the "access hollywood" tape, where he talks about women, him speaking about his wife like she's expendable tracks with the
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"access hollywood" tape. he's also very much corroborated by the other evidence in the case. >> and one other point that has not escaped the jury's notice, we have not seen this loving wife melania, i'm sure the jury has noticed. >> harry litman, kristy greenberg, thank you very much. criminal defense attorney and former senior staff member at the manhattan d.a.'s office, duncan levin. thanks for being here. welcome to the table. michael cohen ended on a high note with the prosecutors. where do you think they're going to go next? >> what they're doing right now is corroborating every piece of evidence that's come into the trial. what we're seeing is we have seen the architecture of the case. they have really started off with this conspiracy, then they moved into the falsifying business records, and now they're bringing forth their sort of more problematic witnesses, stormy daniels and michael cohen.
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they have laid the ground work for the testimony. christy has it right. when michael cohen testifies, he was trying to delay the payment, that tracks on to the testimony that we heard from keith davidson, stormy daniels' attorney who was saying they were trying to do everything they could to delay the payment until this access hollywood tape came out, and then the trump campaign heard there were two women out there, stormy daniels, karen mcdougal who were selling the story, and that led to this feverish, crazy pace of trying to pay them very quickly, knocks on to the testimony of michael cohen's former banker who said his pants were on fire. he was trying to set up this llc called the central consultants is, that matches the testimony we saw there mcconney, a former trump controller who showed the piece of paper with the handwriting from allen weisselberg which has this number, and all of these pieces
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are going to come together. at the end of the day, the prosecutor is going to get in front of the jury, and say look how these pieces fit together, and even if the jury hates michael cohen, he's a hatable figure, everybody has testified how much they despise despise w with him, his pants were on fire all the time, at the end of the day, it won't matter. the pieces will be corroborated and the d.a.'s office laid down the pieces of the trail for the jury to pick up on. >> if you're the defense, and i know you have played both roles, you get up and get your first question to michael cohen, you might go through some of the basics, what's the first topic you take on? directly to stormy daniels or something different than that? >> the defense is shaking up a little bit. particularly with the stormy
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daniels cross-examination, they are trying to blame allen weisselberg. i think the falsity of the business records speaks for itself on that document. i'm referring to the bank account. >> number 35. exhibit 35. >> this is an account statement on first republic bank, and what it shows is allen weisselberg's handwriting on it with grossed up figures. people don't gross up for taxes, and it was basically doubled and the math of it shows the $35,000 payments it. explains how he got to $35,000 payments. for the viewers who may not have followed that, there was $130,000 sent to stormy daniels, plus $50,000 that was sent to a company that was doing online -- >> red fin tech services. >> that got to $180,000. that number was grossed up. it was doubled, plus there was a bonus thrown in for michael
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cohen. if you make it monthly payments was $35,000. someone who famously didn't pay his lawyers. michael cohen testified earlier today that he gave donald trump when he first started $100,000 bill to pay, and donald trump said i'm not paying this, you want to get fired before you eventual get started. >> and he never paid it. >> and he never paid it. >> since we're on the subject, before we go to break, if you show exhibit 36, you're going to see everything, the $50,000 bonus, 180 grand times two for taxes. what does that equal, 410, what's 1/25 of 410, $35,000. the math is written for me. i hope it's right. $35,000 for 12 months. right now, the jurors are probably finishing up their lunches. anybody talk about lunch while we're sitting here, and they're going to be coming back in five minutes. court is expected to pick back up with more of michael cohen's testimony. much more of our coverage of the donald trump hush money trial right after this.
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