federal government might come in and impose some of the changes that south lake voters rejected. if trump niece office, that goes away. he's talked about abolishing the education department, project 2025. this kind of blueprint for a second trump term. has talked about ending federal enforcement of the civil rights policies and sending those back to the state. and so i think there's a line in the book that, you know, ron desantis ran saying make america florida. well, in some ways we're talking about make america south lake. >> mike, congratulations. thank you so much. his new book, they came for the schools, is out now. it is available wherever you get your books. that is all from me on this wednesday night. alex wagner tonight starts right now. hello, alex. hello, my friend. such a good and essential conversation, and mike has been doing the work reporting from the front lines. everybody who cares about the future of this country, even if you don't have a child in school should be reading about what's

happening down there. kudos to you both. >> thanks, alex. >> okay, do you remember the tiny windows conspiracy of 2020? no? >> i want to make bigger windows into smaller windows. as far as they're concerned if you had no window it would be a lovely thing. this is the craziest plan that anybody has ever seen. >> they want to make your windows smaller. that was donald trump during the second presidential debate in 2020 attacking joe biden's climate change agenda. now, biden never proposed making america's windows smaller. that was one of those fever dreams from the mind of donald trump. and three and a half years into the biden administration, surprise, everybody's windows are exactly the same size. here is what biden actually said about his climate plan in that same debate. >> we're going to invest in, for

example, 500,000 -- excuse me, 50,000 charging stations on our highways so that we can own the electric car market of the future. >> investing in thousands of new ev charging stations, that was the plan. and that is more or less what joe biden did as president. he passed a bipartisan infrastructure law with the support of republicans and democrats that invested $7.5 billion in charging stations. and the white house tells nbc news that the country is currently on track to hit biden's charging station goal in 2026, which is four years ahead of schedule. america's windows, though, still the same size. the debate that night was a forum where biden, at least, was explaining what he thought should happen and what he thought was at stake in that 2020 election. the climate stuff was not the only instance of this. >> the president also is opposed to roe v. wade. that's on the ballot as well in

the court. in the court. and so that's also at stake right now. and so the election is all -- >> you don't know it's on the ballot. why is it on the ballot? >> because you said -- >> it's not on the ballot. >> it's on the ballot in the courts. in the court. >> i don't think so, there's nothing happening there. >> there's nothing happening there. take away roe v. wade, the justices i appointed would never. turns out two years later trumps appointees to the supreme court did exactly that, just as president biden said they would. now, to be fair, there were some moments in these debates when trump also gave us a window, a very tiny window, into what he was going to do. like this one. >> are you willing tonight to condemn white supremacists and militia groups? >> what do you want to call them, give me a name. who would you like me to condemn? >> the proud boys. >> proud boy, stand back and

stand by. >> donald trump when asked to condemn racist hate and militia groups instead told the right wing hate group the proud boys to stand back and stand by, and sure enough they did just that. the proud boys celebrated trump's stand back and stand by comments. they ended up leading the attack on january 6th, and the heads of that organization would eventually be charged and convicted of seditious conspiracy for their role in planning and coordinating the january 6th attack. that wasn't the only foreshadowing of chaos that we got in these 2020 debates. remember that trump was also asked how he would direct his supporters as ballots were being counted after election night. >> will you urge your supporters to stay calm during this extended period not to engage in any civil unrest and will you pledge tonight that you will not declare victory until the election has been independently

certified, president trump, you go first. >> i am urging my supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, because that's what has to happen. i am urging them to do it. >> trump was asked if he would urge his supporters to stay calm and not declare victory until all the votes were counted. and trump did not answer that question directly. we now know that trump did not wait until all the votes were counted before declaring that the election was rigged and that he was the true winner. the answer that trump did give that night telling his supporters to go into the polls and watch very carefully, that is now official republican party policy. last month a trump campaign and the rnc announced a plan to have 100,000 attorneys and volunteers monitor the 2024 vote count. what could go wrong? all of these things are things we learned about at the 2020 debates between biden and trump, which brings me to today. for months it's been an open

question whether trump and biden would debate each other ahead of november, but then just a few hours ago in a rapid public back and forth, biden and trump agreed to two debates, one on june 27th and one on september 10th with a vice presidential debate in july. all of this started when president biden issued this challenge on social media. >> donald trump lost two debates to me in 2020, and since then he hasn't shown up far debate. now he's acting like he wants to debate me again. well make my day, pal. i'll even do it twice so. let's pick the dates, donald. i hear you're free on wednesdays. >> that last bit was a not so subtle reference to the former president's new york trial schedule where court is not in session on wednesdays. donald trump quickly responded to president biden's challenge during an appearance on conservative talk radio. >> president biden just issued you a debate challenge for june

and september with the veeps talking in july, do you accept? >> oh, absolutely. i really think he has to debate. he might as well get it over with, probably should do it early so that he can, you know -- because he's not going to get any better. >> but june and september is great. >> every day is a down factor for him. >> the campaigns are still hammering out all the details here, and look, anything could happen between now and then, but at this moment it looks like this thing is happening. joining me now is biden's 2024 national campaign co-chair. it is great to see you, governor, and i wonder if i could just start with why now? what's the calculation from the biden camp? >> well, there's really no calculation. if you think about it, in the last campaign, as you noted, president biden beat donald trump twice in both of the debates that he's done. since that time, since people can't recall i'll help them do this, during entire republican

primary process donald trump ran away from all of the debates and never debated and started mouthing off like he always does. so president biden said, fine, bring it on, i'm fired up and ready to go. and that's what he did today. the president is ready to stand next to donald trump and excited about it, so the american people can see the clear contrast between a guy that has already been declared by a court to be a fraud, a guy who basically sat in the white house after instigating an insurrection and watched a whole bunch of folk who is i call traitors desecrate our halls of government and literally never did anything about it. this is the guy who when he said he wasn't going to do it had roe versus wade overturned and has now put states in charge of monitoring women's pregnancies. or a president that lost more jobs than any president in the history of the country. or a guy who said that he wants to be a dictator on day one. and he thinks that he ought to be able to hire sale team six to kill his political opponents. i'm looking forward to him standing noex somebody he's going to have to acknowledge is

the real president of the united states. a guy named joe biden who basically has spent his entire life help other people, lift us up, bring us together, and as you said in the preface, actually getting things done in this country. >> i feel like we got a preview of what president biden might say during that debate. these two debates are coming as a result of back channel negotiations between the biden and trump camp, and i wonder if that suggests that everybody's on the same page about the stipulations here, because i know president biden said bring it on, but it's bring it on with a few caveats. the first no live audience, do you think that is a settled matter at this point? >> well, first of all, i don't know about the back channel communications. i'm not in this loop. donald trump said a couple of weeks ago -- and of course, he never means anything he says, which makes me wonder whether he's going to show up for the debate like he said he was going to testify at trial, which i don't think he's going to do. or maybe he's going to fall asleep during the debate like he's done during his trial. so let's take whatever he says with a grain of salt. but he said i'll meet you any

time, anywhere. so joe biden said, i'll meet you in two places under these circumstances. the fact of the mat ser, most of the time the debates we have had in the past that have not had audiences that weren't some spectacle like wwe event, that's where you get the most and understand who knows what they're talking about. and as you can see from all of the debates that donald trump has participated in, if his lips are moving, most of the time he's lying. one of the thing he's been on target with, when he say he's going to hurt people, he goads out of his way to do it. he did a time magazine article and somebody asked him to think for a minute about how you were in your last presidency and something you were correct. and the only thing this guy could think about was he was too nice. so he actually wants to be mean exer use the power of the presidency for retribution and revenge. he's going to have to stand up in front of the american people noex a guy that took over from him during one of the worst economic crises, one of the worst public health crises, and put this country back on track

and is doing an excellent job of rebuilding the country. something donald trump promised but could never deliver. >> we're going to talk a little bit more about the sort of recognition that the president does not seem to be getting for those projects in key battleground state, we're going to talk about that later, but i do wonder if this is born of a frustration that the american public isn't giving the president and his administration credit for infrastructure projects, any number of job creation programs that he's overseen in his time in office with a one-seat majority in the senate. do you -- is this the right venue to get that credit? and i want to -- before you answer that, let me just -- play one piece of sound. because there may not be a live audience, but donald trump is still on the stage. and if his lips are moving, as you say, he's often lying. he moves his lips a lot. this is the kind of stuff that happens when trump is on the stage. let's just refresh our audience for what happened in 2020 when

he wasn't supposed to be talking. >> and it didn't happen. >> let's move on and talk about -- >> he left me a mess. >> president trump, okay, we do need to move on. >> they left me a mess. north korea was a mess. and in fact, if you remember the first two or three months. i had to talk democrats into it. >> gentlemen, we're running out of time, so we got to get on to climate change, please. >> i apologize to anybody for whom that is triggering, because i know it frazzles my nerves just to listen to it, but what if it's a whole bunch of that? >> i want to make two points about this. first of aural, donald trump loves being uncontrollable and chaotic. if that's what 2 american people want, they're going to get twice as much next time. sam said, you know, it takes a real smart person to build something, any can kick

down a barn. what's interesting about that clip, he was talking about what he inherited. when joe biden came into office, he inherited one of the worst economies this country has ever seen. he inherited a health threat that donald trump's solution to was to drink clorox or manager like that, while people were dying. he inherited a country that was moving so far down so fast that it scared the hell out of everybody. and joe biden put a cabinet together -- by the way, which is still there except for one person. to be compared to donald trump who lost 17 cabinet members. remember he said he was great at hiring people. 17 people he hired quit and are now begging the american people not to put that guy anywhere back near the oval office. so honestly. the people who know him best like him least, so i'm looking forward to joe biden standing there shoulder to shoulder so the world can look at both of these men. and it's going to be really clear that rather than the guy fighting for the folks and not just their rich friends like donald trump has been doing for the past -- really, his entire

life. >> boy have to ask you, donald trump has called president biden the worst debater i have ever faced and accused biden of being unable to put two sentences together. what do you think of that, literally lowering the ball a couple sent meters off the ground. >> if you haven't watched one of donald trump's rollicking, frolicking, exposes, what does he call those things that he goes to where people yell at him? >> rallies. >> he can't put two words together. i'm looking forward to the president of the united states, joe biden, standing there talking about the fact he's created 15 million job, more jobs than any other president in the history of the country has produced in four years. i'm looking forward to him talking about the fact we have the lowest unemployment rate. i'm looking forward to the fact he's building 56,000 projects right now, which by the way, donald trump said he was going to build and didn't.

the president's ready to go. he's fired up, and he's ready to have at it. so let's get it on, as he likes to say. >> mitch, maybe the biden campaign can borrow you. i know you won't do it, but it might help the guy. thank you for your time tonight, sir, i really appreciate it. >> you're welcome. thanks, looking forward to it. bye-bye. we have a lot to get to this evening, while donald trump is under that gag order, his minions are free to amplify his threat, and new reporting lays out what that means for the targets of their wrath. and we have some new bombshell polling. yes, i know, but that's actually a thing. bombshell polling about the head-to-head matchup between trump and biden. you do not want to miss this next segment. that's next. t to miss this next segment that's next. >> tech: need to get your windshield fixed? safelite makes it easy. you can schedule in just a few clicks. and we'll come to you with a replacement you can trust. >> vo: schedule free mobile service now at safelite.com. ♪ safelite repair, safelite replace. ♪

dangerous ladders. gutter muck. yuck. no wonder you hate cleaning your gutters. good thing there's leaffilter. our patented filter technology keeps leaves and debris out of your gutters forever. guaranteed. call 833- leaffilter to get started. and get the permanent gutter solution that ends clogs for good. they took the time to answer all of our questions. they really put us at ease. end clogged gutters for good. call 833.leaf.filter, or visit leaffilter.com today.

there are less than six months until election day, if you can believe it. i cannot. and new polling this week from battleground states by "the new york times" and senna college shows that if the presidential leshgs was held tomorrow, the likely winner would be donald trump. among the six crucial battleground states, trump is leading in five among registered voters. that'd be arizona, georgia, nevada, pennsylvania, and michigan. they are all states president biden won in 2020. now, when the data switches to

likely voter, biden edges ahead in michigan and trails narrowly in wisconsin and pennsylvania. joining me now to discuss all this is mark, staff writer for the atlantic, and the opinion columnist for "new york times". thank you for helping me understand what's going on here. i want to talk about the debates against this backdrop, but first just the notion, mark, that the numbers for biden have not really moved since the last time this poll was taken in november 2023. they're almost identical. >> they seem somewhat calcified. they seem very similar to before. they will say and have said this is one poll, it's a snapshot, but the truth is, it's been going on for a while. there are some glimmers of, i wouldn't say hope, but certainly things that the biden campaign can hang their hat on, which is the three states they truly do need, pennsylvania, michigan, wisconsin, they are the most competitive in. and if you sort of look at arizona and georgia as states that are considered battleground

state, these are not states democrats had won until 2020. so if you're playing the very narrow straight game here, i mean, they are very competitive there, but it's still early but obviously the needle has not been moved. and i think maybe this debate thing today is a response to that. >> how do you read what feels a little bit like a calcification of opinion? i mean, jeff, who's biden's pollster, says the reality is many voters are not paying close attention to the election and have not started making up their minds. i sort of -- i think the first part is maybe true, but i do think a lot of people have a pretty entrenched idea of who they think donald trump is and who they think joe biden is. >> i'm actually not so sure that's the case. this is what i find sort of somewhat strange about this election is that at the same time, yes, we know who joe biden is, we know who donald trump is, but the typical voter doesn't have like particularly detailed political knowledge beyond that. and so critical things have

happened over the last four years, right? the end of roe v. wade and this wave of new abortion restrictions. about half, a little over half of voters attribute that to donald trump, but that means that there's about half who either don't or don't know or some such thing. and when you start to drill down into what people actually know, and how people could have divvied out responsibility, i think it actually is more fluid than you might think. i think the fact that we have the unusual situation of the current incumbent being the previous challenger and the current challenger being the previous incumbent also adds a new wrinkle to the mix. and so, you know, like mark, i think these numbers are quite bad for the biden campaign. it's -- you don't want to be here generally. at the same time, i do think that the extent to which these polls are static might be

underplaying how fluid this race might actually be just in terms of what people know and how people interpret that politically. >> i don't know, i am struck. and jamelle's written so brilliantly about this, the unusual amnesia given to trump. the numbers on abortion are shocking to anybody who's paid attention to what happened in the courts. registered voter, who's responsible for overturning roe v. wade. trump, 56%, biden, 17%. even among democrat, 12% of democrat, mark, believe biden is responsible for overturning roe v. wade. is that people not understanding? is that people blaming biden for when the to bebs draft was leaked? the white house was slow to respond. that seems like excuse making, how do you understand that? >> i mean, it indicates that at the base the biden campaign has a lot of work to do here.

abortion has been the issue that has absolutely gotten democrats over to finish line over the last year and a half. and you know, the fact that biden, whose record to most abortion voters, people on abortion, is much better. i mean, seems to be losing on this front is a red flashing light right here. the other thing is democracy is an issue that hasn't polled. i mean i don't think we know how these issues are polling. one thing we have seen over the last year and a half is that these issues are not sort of clear to voter, and we're not sure how it's going to perform on election day. so, i mean, look, we're going see. but obviously the biden campaign i think clearly knows it has work to do on things like abortion. if you look at mitch landrieu's appearance before, it was very -- this isn't a word, but it was very -- >> you're not a writer. >> i'm not at this moment, not at this hour. no it was very referendum on donald trumpy.

80% of what he was saying was going down the laundry list of why trump is really, really bad. that's, i think, where the biden campaign wants to be. >> well, exactly. and in some way, jamelle, the abortion stuff, i got to bring up arizona, because that's where abortion -- the war on reproductive freedom has been in some ways a ground zero. the polling between trump and biden in the state of arizona has not changed since november of 2023 until may of 2024. in fact, trump's lead has grown. what should the work be? is it just focussing on trump and his installation of a conservative majority on the supreme court? i mean, how should, you know, democrats and progressives be thinking about this? >> i'm not a strategist, so please no one take my words that seriously here, but my sense is that so much of the worth the biden campaign needs to do is going to be both touting the president's own record, especially his record of

economic management. i think that it's important to recognize things i think a lot of voters are reacting to the inflation of the past few years and inflation in general is a thing that's terrible for incumbents, even if it comes in their control. the biden administration, the campaign touting its economic record, but also in doing so reminding voters so much about how 2020 was. and i do think there's been a profound amnesia, as you said, about the conditions of 2020, about the former president's just terrible mismanagement of the pandemic and everything that transpired that year. and so bringing that back into clear focus for voters, reminding people of what that looked like, i think it's going to be a critical part of this campaign. it's also -- i mean, this is all -- this is entirely unscientific, but i do have a sense that as the fall approaches and as more voters begin to think about this

seriously, i have a sense that maybe these numbers are going to budge. i still very much think we're in this place where trump represents just sort of like, i don't like biden right now. >> yeah. >> and not -- yet in the stage of this guy could actually be president again. and i think once we get to that stage, things might change. now, if they don't, pretty bad for biden. >> well, i mean, the debate, mark, you're holding out some glimmer of hope that these can make a debit in what feels like a status quo the terms of polling and dynamics. the fact that they're happening in june and september, is that a good thing? should they be happening later? >> i mean, the june thing is a change-up, because we're not used to it being before the conventions. and i mean, look, biden has shown he can outperform expectations -- >> state of the union. >> -- and the trump campaign certainly isn't doing itself any favors by trump coming out and saying he's the worst debater in history.

so yeah, i mean, biden should, i think, by basis of, that he has an opportunity to do really, really well. i'm really curious to see what he's going to say to trump about his own vulnerabilities. how do you take the fight to trump when you yourself are the incumbent and when you have so much ammunition to work with against the other guy. because biden is not a natural attack dog in this setting, especially against a guy like donald trump who , who has also been president. >> i somehow think we're going to be talking about this for some time to come. mark, jamelle, thank you for being here tonight. i appreciate you. much more to get to tonight. donald trump's beautiful friend, his description, not mine, his beautiful friends showed up at the courthouse in matching suits auditioning to be his running mate, but also they may have helped put some public officials in real danger. that is next. officials in real danger that is next

my life is full of questions... how do i clean an aioli stain? use tide. do i need to pretreat guacamole? not with tide. why do we even buy napkins? thankfully, tide's the answer to almost all of them. do crabs have eyebrows? except that one. for all of life's laundry questions, it's got to be tide. so rich. so indulgent. it's new olay body wash. silky indulgent moisture. bye bye, dry skin. hello glow in just 14 days. indulge. with olay body wash.

( ♪♪ ) i thought water would help with these dry spots. that's lawn disease. but scotts healthy plus will cure it! lawn disease? been going around. so like other people have it and it's not... pick up a bag of the new scotts turf builder healthy plus lawn food today. feed your lawn. feed it.

if you have wet amd, you never want to lose sight of the things you love. some things should stand the test of time. long lasting eylea hd could significantly improve your vision and can help you go up to 4 months between treatments. if you have an eye infection, eye pain or redness, or allergies to eylea hd, don't use. eye injections like eyla hd may cause eye infection, separation of the retina, or rare but severe swelling of blood vessels in the eye. an increase in eye pressure has been seen. there's an uncommon risk of heart attack or stroke associated with blood clots. the most common side effects were blurred vision, cataract, corneal injury, and eye floaters.

and there's still so much to see. if you are on eylea or a similar type of treatment, ask your retina specialist about eylea hd today, for the potential for fewer injections.

i'm here for the simple reason to show support far friend. >> president trump is a friend, and i wanted to be here to support him. >> i'm here, and all of us are here, as friends of donald trump. >> that was republican senator j.d. vance, speaker of the house mike johnson, and former presidential candidate vivek ramaswamy. part of the gaggle of officials who showed up to donald trump's

criminal trial in new york this week wearing matching outfits claiming they were just there as friends. but this color-coordinated group of friends wasn't just there in a display of moral support, they were there to hold press conferences and to say stuff like this to the american public. >> what's going on inside that courtroom is a threat to american democracy, ladies and gentlemen. >> this is a travesty of justice. this is a misuse of the justice system. >> this is a sham. this is not the united states of america. this is some third rate banana republic. >> the judicial system in our country has been weaponized against president trump. >> if any of that sounded familiar, it's probably because everything those guys said this week parroted the same disparaging language their friend donald trump has been using to demonize the justice system for years now. and that's what makes this group of republicans and what they did this week so upsetting because trump has already shown us what

comments like this can do. trump demonized prosecutors. his followers threatened them with violence. trump attacked the fbi, his followers attacked fbi field offices. trump went after judges overseeing the cases against him and those judges saw an unprecedented wave of threats. in february, reuters put out this report on just how many threats judges overseeing trump cases had been getting. this week, reuters followed up on that piece in a new analysis of trump's social media posts attacking judges shows us how those posts led to 150 calls for violence just since march. in one post, trump called judge juan merchan a highly conflicted overseer of a kangaroo court. trump's followers responded with death threats. posts like treason is a hangable offense and they should all be executed. as reuters points out, experts on extremism say the constant

repetition of threatening or menacing language can normalize the idea of violence and increase the risk of someone carrying it out. and now it's not just donald trump who is undermining the judicial system and menacing the people involved in this trial. >> every single person involved in this prosecution is practically a democratic political operative. >> what we've got here is a partisan democrat district attorney. we have a biden donor judge. >> the only crime that is happening here is this democrat judge and the democrat party prosecuting their political rival. >> the real book keeping that we need accounting of is judge merchan's own family member collecting millions of dollars as a democratic operative. >> it's so corrupt. it's so corrupt, and everybody knows it. >> it's so corrupt, and everyone knows it. we know that trump saying stuff like this is dangerous, so what does it mean now that he is backed by a chorus a literal

chorus, of republican party leaders amplifying his message. i'll talk with katie and charles about just that next. and charles about just that next so i use nervive. nervive's clinical dose of ala reduces nerve discomfort in as little as 14 days. now i can help again. feel the difference with nervive.

(psst! psst!) ahhh! with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy long lasting relief in a scent free, gentle mist. flonase all good. also, try our allergy headache and nighttime pills.

ma, ma, ma— ( clears throat ) for fast sore throat relief, try vicks vapocool drops. with two times more menthol per drop, and powerful vicks vapors to vaporize sore throat pain. vicks vapocool drops. vaporize sore throat pain.

i'd like you to hear something that my colleague rachel maddow said last night during her special coverage of donald trump's new york criminal trial. it is something that merits repetition. >> the rule of law is a specific thing. it is a concrete process where there are people who work in the court system and they have families.

and there are people who have to sfsh as witnesses and jurors in the system. to have every leading light in the republican party lining up and saying our judicial system doesn't count and our judicial system is a joke and our judicial system is just stacked against you and me and we should disparage it here, this is an important moment for the rule of law in the united states of america. because this is not donald trump against the judicial system, this is the republican party, one of the two parties of the united states, lining up and saying in unison our court system effectively ought to be dismantled. we're going to look at all of these republican politicians showing up at the courthouse and denouncing the judicial branch of democracy -- >> joining me now are katie benner, "new york times" reporter covering the justice department, and charles coleman, now a civil rights attorney.

i had to replay that. i think rachel is right, charles. i don't want to let that moment go yesterday when mike johnson, the republican speaker of the house, is out that there saying the whole system is rigged based on donald trump. how do we reconcile this? >> so much to unpack here. the first thing i want to know is, where was all this vitriol around this justice department when it was around prosecuting or the need to prosecute hillary clinton, for example? where was the vitriol talking about the two-tiered justice with other social things regular people are affected by. >> sure. >> these things in terms of a hypocrisy standpoint, i cannot even begin to touch. but when you're talking about the gop, as a political party, a party allegedly of law and order, we know that that has long since -- that train has left the station. but when you're talking about a political party that's

responsible for upholding american democratic institutions, for you to so aggressively attack one of the institutions that is the bedrock of american society is simply deplorable. not only does it speak to where you are as a party, but it lessens the confidence of american citizens in a way that is extremely dangerous for the future of democracy. >> to rachel's point, this is the beginning, maybe, of the fall of democracy if trump is elected for a second presidency. up to this point the doj in particular has tolerated the attacks on it and the broader justice system. and in a way almost, i wouldn't say cater to it, but count it in a way that has resulted in, i don't know, robert hur getting appointed special counsel. even some of the hunter biden stuff feels -- the delay in prosecuting trump on january 6th, all of it feels of a piece with a justice system that's been a little bit scared to go after conservative, and look what it's gotten. >> i would see a justice

department that doesn't want to go after conservatives, because to attack one of the two political parties in the country is something the justice department is not supposed to do. and a department that was not built to withstand attacks from within the government. the justice department and the rule of law in general work well if everybody wants to support the democracy. democracy is not a noun, sit a verb. you know, we all make it together by looking at the rules and taking them seriously. so no department, no department in the government is going to be able to withstand people throwing out the rule book, which is what we're seeing here. the consequences for the justice department, as you point out the credibility consequences are grave but also the consequences for us. >> yes. >> absolutely. >> people. because one of the things the fbi and national security vision has brought up is the huge uptick in domestic violent extremist activity and the number two category is certainly

anti-government extremists. and so this is going to be a big problem, and we're going to see it more and more as we get closer to the election. >> and the attack, the integrity of the system, and the people inside the system who are tasked with, you know, protecting it and keeping it afloat, just to save judges, right? >> right. >> from a legal perspective as a lawyer, charles, when you see the attacks, donald trump blows the whistle, merchan and goran, kaplan, whoever the presiding judge is in any of these trials then gets a flood of threatening messages from points everywhere. what does that do to a legal system? >> it dehabilitates it in the sense that, number one, you have people who are going to be reticent to actually participate on both sides. in terms of professionals who say i don't want to risk my life or my family's life to participate in this. it's only a job. and if the job is going to cost me my life, no matter how much i believe in law, justice, and what order should look like, i'm not willing to put my safety at risk for that.

that's a very big concern. the other concern, alex, is that from the standpoint of the american people, they can say, why do we need to participate in this system? it's entirely corrupt. which leads to lawlessness. which leads to a space where instead of approaching things where we understand that we have systems that we're supposed to use and rely on to maintain order and law and justice in america, instead of accepting these results from the court, we have january 6th. >> mm-hmm. >> we have a level of disruption and a level of disorder that allows for people who are not necessarily able to win the majority to still operate from places of power. and i think that big picturewise you have to step back and think about that. when you think about, for example, donald trump losing the popular vote twice in the past two elections and yet and still being able to control a narrative that says, well, we're not going to accept that election, regardless of what the courts say. now that you've sort of denigrated the justice system as a whole, you have more and more and more of your followers who say i don't have to listen to

the courts either, which leads to large instances of unlawfulness across the country. >> i wonder if it has an effect on justices persuaded by trump's argument. i am thinking of the supreme court. we have seen a court that really has some justices on it that feel like partisan actor, are they emboldened to act when they are told over and over again the system is rigged against conservative actors. >> i think we heard some of those justices questioning the ruling on trump's immunity talk about how they were not simply ruling on this case but ruling on something bigger, ruling on democracy, which is actually the opposite of what you're supposed to do when ruling on a case, for one. but two, it show has many members of that court are cognizant of not just the stakes of the case before them but something larger. now, it's clear that there's a

big disagreement on the court about what that larger -- what the larger stakes are. you know, for some people it is the letter of the law and for others it seems to be something amorphous about democracy that we as people who listen to the argument couldn't quite get at. and there was a lot of division, but it reflects the same division that's happening in the country. >> exactly. >> as people say what are we day to take away from the prosecution of a former president and what are we to believe. now, the problem with the violence is that that will put an exclamation point on donald trump and what he represents. so right now you're right, republicans kind of skate through and can make these statements and kind of be his mouthpiece outside the court. they can say the things that he's gagged from saying. but if there is violence, and researchers have shown that this kind of rhetoric does often lead to violence. f rhetoric does often lead to violence. this kind of rhetoric does often lead to violence. it certainly did, to charles's point, on january 6. then we ar

have to look at the republican party again and say are you so bought in that you condone even this? >> hopefully we don't get that point, but it does seem like a logical endpoint when you have leadership in matching red ties, all spreading the same lies, affectively. charles coleman, katie benner, it is great to see you here talking about a distressing topic that is an essential conversation. still ahead tonight, it is back to court tomorrow for donald trump. what to expect on what could be the last day of testimony, that is next. and here. not so much here. farxiga reduces the risk of kidney failure which can lead to dialysis. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪ ♪♪ farxiga can cause serious side effects, including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration,

urinary tract or genital yeast infections and low blood sugar. a rare, life-threatening bacterial infection in the skin of the perineum could occur. stop taking farxiga and call your doctor right away if you have symptoms of this infection, an allergic reaction, or ketoacidosis. when you have chronic kidney disease, it's time to ask your doctor for farxiga. because there are places you want to be. if you can't afford your medication, astrazeneca may be able to help. ♪ far-xi-ga ♪

♪♪ imagine a future where plastic is not wasted... but instead remade over and over... into the things that keep our food fresher, our families safer, and our planet cleaner. to help us get there, america's plastic makers are investing billions of dollars to create innovative products and new recycling technologies for sustainable change. because when you push for smarter solutions, big things can happen. >> at university of maryland global campus, getting a bachelor's degree doesn't have to mean starting from scratch. here you can earn up to 90 undergraduate credits for relevant experience. what will your next success be? bombas makes absurdly comfortable underwear. made to move with you, not on you. because your basic things should be your best things. one purchased equals one donated. visit bombas.com and get 20% off your first order.

she runs and plays like a puppy again. his #2s are perfect! he's a brand new dog, all in less than a year. when people switch their dog's food from kibble to the farmer's dog, they often say that it feels like magic. but there's no magic involved. (dog bark) it's simply fresh meat and vegetables, with all the nutrients dogs need— instead of dried pellets. just food made for the health of dogs. delivered in packs portioned for your dog. it's amazing what real food can do.

it is wednesday, which means today defendant donald trump had time to attend to his presidential campaign. today he traveled to ohio for a fundraiser in cincinnati with his ally and vice presidential contender senator jd vance. a few hours later he was in lexington, kentucky for another

fundraising dinner, but it is back to court tomorrow. michael cohen has been on the witness stand for two days and tomorrow defense attorneys continue their cross- examination. joining us now is vaughn hillyard, taking a break from outside the courthouse. thank you for being in the studio. >> reporter: i appreciate wednesdays. >> we all do. is donald trump going to testify? i know you don't know, but do any signs suggested? >> reporter: look, he had plenty of time on an airplane today for prep. usually before a defense attorney brings the client into a trial to testify and ultimately be the one in front of a jury who would be the loudest voice to determine whether guilty or not, you would think you would spend substantial time prepping your client. donald trump, he regretted not testifying in the first e. jean carroll trial when a jury not hearing his testimony directly determined he had sexually assaulted e. jean carroll. months later at the second defamation suit he wanted to go

and fight the allegations that he sexually assaulted her, but the judge said sorry, that has been litigated. you had the chance in the first trial and that is not what we are here to do. he was given three minutes to respond to questions not directly related to whether he sexually assaulted her or not. he regretted not doing it the first time and if he is not happy with todd blanche and the defense team, it could give him credence. >> we have reporting tonight, from a source with expect -- with direct knowledge of what to expect tomorrow says the cross-examination will focus on cohen's lies under oath and repeated lies about what happened in 2016 and 2017. are there some pacific areas you are expecting to hear about? >> reporter: yes, because we didn't get there in the first cross-examination. >> a lot of things, but not the central thing. >> reporter: no, the assertion

he was trying to make money out of books and attacking trump, but they did not get to the heart of some moments including that he pleaded guilty to federal charges on tax evasion, which now he says no, i perjured myself. i didn't mean what i said when i pled guilty and that is what led to a federal judge not shortening his probation sentence literally two months ago. they have not gotten to their end of course there are statements from 2018. in february, 2018 michael cohen is still issuing statements thing the trump campaign nor the trump organization had anything to do with this transaction with stormy daniels and he said he was being specific with his words, that donald trump specifically he did not name, only the campaign and organization, being cute with his words. >> that is meaningful, deeply meaningful. >> reporter: you continue to defend donald trump, so why did you lie for him so long and suddenly you are telling us a different story in this courtroom and this jury is supposed to believe you? again, the cross-examination has got to get to those key

moments. >> this would be the time to do a given this is the last witness from the prosecution. i have to ask because we have been playing this tape a lot and i think it is important to remind people what republican leadership is thing about this trial and the justice system. the surrogates coming out in force for donald trump. presumably there will be more of them tomorrow, who can know? the fact they were doing trumps bidding by launching attacks on the judge and his daughter, that is technically a violation of the gag order. trump isn't supposed to order people to violate the gag order for him. is it your expectation that that is something the prosecution will flag is another violation of the gag order in the coming days? >> reporter: i'm not sure what evidence they have that they could go to the judge and say look, donald trump ordered them to be his surrogates. none of them articulated that donald trump told them to. they've been to with the words and said they came as volunteers. at the same time you hear them attacking one of the

prosecutors. you hear them attacking the daughter of the judge. these are very specific attacks that most americans do not know the names -- >> we do know. >> reporter: we do know. having the republican speaker of the house there yesterday, as a revolving door of trump loyalty. in 2015 it was michael cohen by donald trump side and mike johnson was questioning whether donald trump had morality to be president of the united states. fast forward eight years and it is michael cohen on the stand testifying against donald trump and mike johnson defending him. >> i am eager to see if kristi noem and the ghost of her dog, cricket, show up tomorrow. who can know. vaughn hillyard, thank you for burning the midnight oil before you had to court tomorrow morning. that is it for our show this evening. now it is time for "the last word with lawrence o'donnell." good evening. >> good evening, alex. joe biden is facing a challenge in the upcoming debates