or frankly one that advances america's national interests as they should, so we will start here and again, this is how movements begin. we have to start with this conversation. there are plenty of people who agree with us. it will be good for the republican party and very good for america, so that is why we are doing this. >> so, senator, there has been a dearth of policy matters in the republican party including in terms of policy platforms and clarity around what policy looks like. some of that has been cleaned up by this project 2025 that the heritage foundation and others have put out. it is not what i would imagine that you and charlie would think of as a republican platform. an platform. things like project 2025?

>> well, we don't have a platform. we recognize that, historically in the republican party, all kinds of people have had different views on all kinds of important issues. but, there have been certain principles that are broader than particular issues where every republican disagreed and they don't anymore. this has been turned on its head. just to give you one example, america's involvement in the world, peace through strength, we had a majority of republican members of the house of representatives who voted against aid to ukraine. in the very near future, no republican would have voted against aid to ukraine, i mean, we tried isolationism in the 1930s and it didn't work out

very well. now, republicans are saying, in essence, okay, vladimir putin, take it. you want ukraine, it is yours. trump has said he would invite vladimir putin to invade nato countries. can you imagine ronald reagan saying that? we have gone from mikael gorbachev, tear down this wall to vladimir putin, have at it. it is a total reversal of what the republican party once. i don't think there is a lack of clarity in what these people are about, i think they are very clear. it is high tariffs, it is big government, it is convening a group to come to washington and inciting them to attack the capitol. they have been very clear in what they are doing. if there was just a lack of

clarity, okay, that is fine. no, this is, it is not just different from the traditional republican party, it is contrary to what the republican party has been and what it should be in the future. >> i appreciate the thought you put into this and having this discussion. charlie, you know i would like nothing more than actual policy discussions than just the hope that we will get to it. i appreciate that maybe you are headed in that direction. former republican senator john danforth of missouri is the cofounder of our republican legacy and former republican legacy charlie dent of pennsylvania is a senior advisor to our republican legacy and the executive director and vice president of the congressional program at the aspen institute. the supreme court, donald trump, and our american crisis. by the upside down american flag that flew at a justices house immediately after the january 6 insurrection was not an accident but a symbolic message to america and trump's followers. what it means for trump's multiple legal cases and the

future of our micro see, on another hour of our program, which begins right now. good morning, saturday may 18th. we begin with a stunning new revelation that has revived concerns of the ethical standards of one of the most, america's most important institutions, the supreme court. this week, the new york times published a report that cast fresh doubt about the impartiality of a second supreme court justice possibly linked to the politics of january 6th. the report was published as the country awaits a pair of decisions from the high court that could have an impact on january 6th related prosecutions, including the federal election interference case against the presumptive republican presidential nominee, donald trump. central to the times report is a photograph of for this, and upside down american flag on a residential property owned by supreme court justice samuel alito. historically, flying the flag upside down has been known as a

signal of distress. sailors at sea understood this as a sign of an emergency. it has since been co-opted as a political symbol for a variety of causes and protest movements, a symbol that indicates deep disapproval of a particular issue or of a particular politician. in the 60s and 70s, flags were flown upside down by those protesting the vietnam war. for some tea party conservatives in 2012, it was a symbol of opposition to barack obama. we saw it again more recently in the summer of 2022 as people came out to protest the supreme court's decision to overturn roe versus wade, the opinion for which was written by justice samuel alito. in the wake of the 2020 presidential election, as it became clear that joe biden had won the race and trump launched his campaign of lies in an effort to overturn those results, and upside down flag was largely understood as a symbol of opposition to biting. online, trump supporters

encouraged people to display flags in that manner to protest the outcome of the election. on one proton form, a poster wrote, "if january 6th rolls around and biden is confirmed by the electoral college, our nation is in distress. if you cannot go to the d.c. rally, you must do your duty and show your support for our president by flying the flag upside down. " on january 6, the associated press photographed at least one rioter weaving an inverted flag on the steps of the capitol. according to the times, the newly surfaced photo of samuel alito's residence was taken on january 17th, 2021 in the days between the insurrection and biden's inauguration. was taken by one of samuel alito's neighbors and other residents corroborated the flag was displayed that way for an unspecified number of days. meanwhile, during the same time at the supreme court, those justices were deciding whether

to take up a case brought by trump allies challenging pennsylvania's mail in voting system, a case that could have had implications for the outcome of the election. samuel alito, by the way, was in favor of reviewing that case. the majority decided against it. when this story first came out earlier this week, i wanted to treat it with a healthy dose of skepticism because, to me, it seemed too outrageous to be true that a member of the supreme court would be so brazen or foolish or neglectful as to allow a political symbol to be displayed at his home so openly. i waited for some plausible reason. yet, that is something that seems to have been the case. in his email statement to "the new york times" , samuel alito wrote "i had no involvement in flying the flag. it was leased by my wife in response to a neighbor's use of objectionable and personally insulting language on yard signs." notably, samuel alito does not dispute the flag on his property was flown upside down during the time in question, nor does he dispute the commonly understood symbolism

of an upside down flag, nor does he disavow or acknowledge or express regret that it has been perceived negatively in such a way that it punishes the reputation of the supreme court. instead, he just blames his wife. samuel alito's predicament is in addition to the ethical concerns surrounding clarence thomas, whose wife ginny thomas has been scrutinized for her political activities. she admitted to attending the rally at the ellipse on january 6th and it was revealed that in the days after that election, she was in contact with john eastman, one of the architects of the fake electors scheme, who is now facing criminal charges. besides that, recent reports have raised additional questions about both justices links to billing or conservative donors and their history of accepting gifts and luxury trips from them. their actions, as well as their apparent lack of concern over the impropriety of their actions, have contributed to the decline of public trust in the supreme court. this is all playing out against the backdrop of an incredibly important election that the

court has already influenced in some ways. it is, it's highly criticized decision to hear trump's case forgotten presidential immunity means the ex-president's federal election interference case is unlikely to proceed to trial before november . given all that we know about the conduct of some of the justices , every american citizen will have reason to doubt the fairness of the courts decisions on matters related to the insurrection of the former president. joining me now is justice correspondent and list for "the nation," author of the book "allow me to report, a black guy's guide to the constitution." jennifer rubin, opinion writer for ""the washington post"," and msnbc political analyst, and author of "resistance, how women saved democracy from donald trump ." i will freely admit to being the duke in this crowd because i am the guy who said executive producer there's got to be more to this story. give them a minute and samuel alito is going to come out with

something that explains, recently, when he had an upside down flag at his house. guess what, i was wrong. >> the reason why he had the upside down flag in his house is because he supports the insurrection. i knew that before the flag story new clarence thomas supported the insurrection before i knew about ginny thomas involvement because you read their opinions. you read what they say. you listen to what they say at oral arguments and they have already told you what they are about. they have already told you that they are mega aligned pro trump insurrectionist in the proof of that is not in the flag story or the email story or whatever, it is in their written opinions. it is in what they have done for trump since he launched his insurrection, which is do everything in their supreme power possible to make sure trump evades prosecution and

accountability for his crimes. that is what they are, that is what they have always been. the question at some point becomes not who are these people, because we know who these people are, it is what are the rest of us going to do about it and what the rest of us willing to do to stop them? >> right. as it relates to the supreme court, our options, i.e. the options of the rest of us, are relatively limited and, at the moment, seem to involve either protest or making sure that the supreme court is one of the reasons you vote whatever way you are going to vote in november. short of that, what else can be done? as we have learned from the supreme court, nobody is the boss of them. >> welcomed two points. first of all, he went to fox news to dispute this. consider that. he goes to the outlet that is the propaganda mouthpiece that made up and ran with and ultimately had to pay a huge verdict for lying is about the

election of 2020. put a pin in that. secondly, it is not just that he was aligning with trump, it is that he is aligning with a group that is considering, that is doing the work of overthrowing the constitution. that is a clear violation of his own. it is not as if he had a trump sign, no trump, he has a down with the constitution sign, essentially, flying over his house. so, what do we do? well, first of all, dick durbin has been twiddling his thumbs on any mandatory ethics reform. it needs to be on the floor of the senate on monday. put it to the house and let them decide that they don't want to improve the supreme court. secondly, there should be an impeachment inquiry. there is no excuse for it. understand that while this was going on sydney powell and her pack of malpractice and, unethical lawyers were concocting a plot to have samuel alito intervene in the

election. that was their scheme. we have tape of sydney powell saying yes, that was the scheme, to get samuel alito into this. if that is not grounds for an impeachment proceeding, i don't know what is. third, this is not just a samuel alito and a clarence thomas problem, this is a chief justice roberts problem. he is complicit in this. he has the choice. he can go public if need be, you can demand these people recuse themselves, he can go to congress and ask for a mandatory ethics regime. but he hasn't because he is weak, because he wants to allow the conservative majority to remain so he can advance whatever political views he has. he is complicit in all of this. ultimately, what we need is investigation. we need court reform, we need

democrats in this election to elevate court reform, come out in favor of not only term limits but, in my book, at this point, we need court expansion. so, there's lots of things to be doing. but, we cannot them if people like dick durbin sit around and say please samuel alito, would you recuse yourself? that is not going to get the job done. democrats shouldn't tolerate that kind of approach. >>, i had one more thing on roberts? roberts doesn't have a lot of heart power but he has a lot of soft power over these people. one of the tools in his bag that he refuses to use is that there is no reason samuel alito or clarence thomas should be allowed to write majority opinions. that decision is roberts. there's no reason samuel alito has the right to write the overturning roe versus wind wade decision. he can take those cases away from the men who are complicit, away from the men who are corrupted and at least give them to amy coney barrett. she's sitting right there. she's got her pens ready for

action, right? so, there are a lot of ways science, in addition to speaking out and saying something about the court that he will be penned to for the rest of his legacy. there are soft things roberts could be doing to rain these people in but he's not. i totally agree with john, at some point, the democrats just need to, there needs to be a on the floor. when i come on a segment like this, i need to be able to point say like look, everybody, we need to vote for ethics reform bill 1827 because that is what is going to stop them. i can't say that because democrats haven't put that pill together. >> right. this is interesting. it is an interesting point. sorry, go ahead, jen. >> i was just going to say part of the problem is the supreme court bar. they should be making motions to recuse these people. those people who have been on the wrong side of 6-3 decisions

well these guys have sat on the court should be asking for a rehearing. judges who did not abide by their oath who have plainly repudiated the constitution decided these cases. so, the supreme court bar has to get into this. i will also make a point that the person who broke this story is a fabulous investigative reporter. she is not the "court reporter." the problem is the court reporters to investigate and treat the court like a regular beat. they don't do investigative work, they don't press for answers, they do not treat them critically. they are so in all of their subject matter that they act like the press office of the court. judy cantor, the press coverage of the court has to change. and, i think the bar that goes to the court has to begin to put pressure on them as well. there is a publicity and a silence of normality that has to end. it is a rogue institution that has gone off the rails. >> a rogue institution.

i just have to ask you this. samuel alito, as you said, from reading his decisions, you can, and his opinions, you can glean who he is and what his politics are. and, i can understand in a statement he made to the new york times in which he shifts his blame on his wife, fox news followed up with him yesterday and they reported "samuel alito added he felt he had no right or ability to control or order around his wife and that some neighbors on his street have been very political." here's my question. nobody is suggesting he should be ordering around his wife but you are political. whether you like it or not, he is political, you are political, jen is political, we are political beings. is there a different way to deal with the fact that he had neighbors who apparently don't like his politics them to put

the symbol out that said he was prepared to see the overturning of an election? >> absolutely. i am a black man on television. when i go out on the street, i've got some neighbors who have some things to say to me, all right? i'm really sorry if samuel alito and his wife had a bad walk around the neighborhood. that is part of society we live in. i'm sorry that they can't handle what i have to handle every tuesday when they walk around their street. they have to understand that they are public officials. samuel alito is a public official imbued with extreme, supreme, unaccountable power and when he uses that power to, i don't know, take away the rights, reproductive health care rights for half of the american people, all right, when they do things like outlaw affirmative action, when they do things like put guns on our streets, their neighbors might have something to say to them, right? their neighbors might have, might have a word they would like to say to them. as a public official, as a public person, you just kind of have to take it. this disproportional craziness

doesn't hold water. people are mean to me, i don't have a flag flying outside my house, right? i just go oh, okay, thanks a lot, sarah. >> that would be the normal response. >> the normal human being. >> that is what i was getting at. i'm sorry your neighbors are not nice to you but people should be nice to people if they can but i don't understand why that results in you putting up a symbol of some weird anti- democratic political activity. but, you know, we still live and learn about these things every week. thanks to both of you. elie mystal, justice crisp and and and columnist with "the nation." jennifer rubin is a washington post opinion writer, msnbc political analyst, and author of the book persistence, how women save democracy from donald trump. excellent conversation with the two of you this morning. coming up, who is behind the group pouring millions into a democratic family, which tend to the campaign of a popular capitol police officer who took action on january 6th.

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former capitol police officer harry don, we've spoken with on the show, lost his congressional bid in maryland's third congressional district this week after a pro-israel group poured millions of dollars into the race against him. harry dunn gained national recognition for his heroism on january 6th after he courageously protected lawmakers from a mob of insurrectionist. in his best-selling memoir "standing my ground ," he recounts how the mob used the n- word as they attacked him and other black officers. the first time candidate entered a loosely contested race to replace john's our brains.

he was defeated by a series and committed his campaign received significant support from the super pac arm of the american israel public affairs committee , more, known as aipac. most of harry dunn's donations came from small dollar donors with an average campaign contribution of $21.00. by comparison, his opponent got $4.2 million in support from the super pac alone, according to documents filed with the federal election commission. the pro-israel lobby and its controversial super pac have become key players in democratic congressional races around the country, investing millions to unseat democrats, mostly people of color, who have spoken out against israel's military campaign in gaza. aipac is planning on spending $100 million in congressional races around the country, turning candidates they seem insufficiently supportive of

israel. among super pac's top targets, new york representative jamaal bowman and alexandria cost you cortez, michigan's rashida tlaib and corey bush. aipac advertisements have been a contraceptive by focusing on issues unrelated to foreign policy and critics point to the lobbies outside influence in these races, which often rely on small dollar donors and struggle to compete with aipac warchest. no one knows this better than my next guest, pennsylvania presented of summer lee, who won her primary in 2022, despite efforts by aipac to undermine her bid. congresswoman summer lee joins me after a quick break. stay with us. us. t scotts heals will cure it! lawn disease? been going around. so like other people have it and it's not... pick up a bag of the new scotts turf builder healthy plus lawn food today. feed your lawn. feed it.

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for more on this, and it by the democratic congresswoman, summer lee offensive you. europe since the state's 12th district. lee defeated a aipac back challenger in her district, democratic primary. congresswoman, good to see you, thank you for being with us. one of the confusing things about this is that aipac is one of the largest groups whose primary interest is in america's relations with a foreign government and yet the super pac it uses does a lot of other things. they support candidates in some cases, you did not accept the outcome of the last election, they support candidates who argue against and vote against a woman's reproductive rights in america. it becomes confusing as to who these people are who are working to get people like you unseat it. >> i think that what aipac

relies on is us being uncritical. we need money so much to sustain our political career that we are not critical. at the end of the day, you can't have it both ways. you can't support insurrectionist and also be a friend of democracy. you can't say that you are a supporter of the black caucus, for instance but almost exclusively attacked and harassed black candidates, and likewise, as we are dealing with the threat to abortion care and abortion access around the country, you can't endorse over 200 antiabortion republicans and then also pretend you are somehow a friend of both sides. that is why we need to be really critical about where the money comes from, who they are spending it on, and when we look at it that deeply, we see the commonalities immediately. these are republican donors attempting to keep progressive, particularly progressive people of color, out of congress. >> tommy is part about progressive people of color. when did, how did they effectively create this line between not sufficiently supporting israel, when i say sufficiently to aipac standards and progressive people of color? they seem to have lumped the

two together. >> certainly. i think it's very difficult to tell what aipac standards are right now. it seems that the only standard is showing a lack of empathy for palestinians. that is what has elicited the type of text we have seen, multimillion dollar attacks. if we go back to my first campaign, there was no immediate reason why. when they attacked me, i think i had maybe one post on israel. it can't be said that it is just they are not good enough on this one issue. what we are seeing is that there are people who are champions for human rights domestically and abroad, these are champions for people against corporate greed, these are champions for people who care about environmental justice and all of these different things. i am seeing more of a commonality there in these black and brown progressives than i'm seeing in any before october 7th and we have to remember that aipac's attacks predate that . >> some people have said that the candidates, who, like you

have not succeeded against the aipac super pac funded candidates are not winning because they are not winning on the issues. he recently, in an interview, said it is disingenuous when we say we are not winning because we are not winning on the issues, we are not winning because we are not winning resources. the harry dunn race illustrates that. was raising money successfully in the way that you read it in a congressional race, typically, which is small dollar donors, $21.00 on average. all of a sudden, his competitor, who was nowhere close to being imperative in terms of the money she had raised, managed to basically raise him, all with money from a super pac. >> let's be real, money is not the only thing but it is important. when you list those numbers, it is almost, we say it's almost like it is normal that millions and millions and millions of dollars are being spent in these relatively small congressional races.

when we look at the senate races nationwide, we are going to see unprecedented spending. what does that mean? that means regular working class people can't access the halls of power. we can't afford to engage in these races. oftentimes, aipac and other super pac groups, it is not just aipac, it is the nra, it is the oil and gas lobby but they are almost always spending in districts where there are working class constituents who deserve to have working class for presentation. how do we compete? it shouldn't cost this much to be in a race. also, we don't have any rules around what they can say. you mentioned it, they never mentioned israel or palestine in my race, any of my races . we never seen them do it in most of these races oftentimes, they are calling people trump supporters or distortion and using disinformation. we have to get to the root of these tactics and also the money in politics.

>> the sort of electoral abuses took off after the supreme court's 2010 ruling in citizens united, which opened the door to unlimited secret campaign contributions, specifically that it allows for wealthy donors to conceal their identity by funneling money through nonprofits. is there a congressional fix for this? >> first of all, you know what, i'm going to say that, yes, of course, there are congressional fixes for most things. is there a congressional will to do so? that is what i think i'm having a difficult time with. we don't see a congressional will to give up or what we would say bye to think at that feeds. that's literally what this is. if you are a candidate looking at how expensive it is to run a race, for us, we run every two years. that means all we do is call time, donor relationships. if you can have a friend that can come in and say we will take care of you, we will come in with 10, $20 million, that eases the burden for that candidate and it creates a terrible cycle where candidates who rely on this money will do very little to get rid of the money and the influence. at the end, it is going to

crush democracy, it is going to hurt us all. i think we need to get the willpower very quickly to do something about that. we can't just be okay with it as long as they are attacking our enemies, right? or, as long as they are supporting our friends. but, that is what we are dealing with right now. >> congers woman sommer lee of pennsylvania, thank you for joining us, always a pleasure talking to you. coming up, new reporting a member of donald trump's inner circle has been served an indictment in arizona's fake electors case. those details are next. e next. . and stay married. you know what's brilliant? boring. think about it. boring is the unsung catalyst for bold. what straps bold to a rocket and hurtles it into space? boring does. boring makes vacations happen, early retirements possible, and startups start up. because it's smart, dependable, and steady. all words you want from your bank. for nearly 160 years, pnc bank has been brilliantly boring

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nbc news has learned the former president of former personal attorney and for seasons aficionado rudy giuliani was served an indictment while celebrating his 80th birthday party in west palm beach, florida, according to someone who was in attendance. the indictment deals with rudy giuliani's alleged role in attempting to prevent the lawful transfer of power in the 2020 presidential election involving fake electors in arizona. rudy giuliani's party was being live streamed. however, the feed cut off before he was served the papers. up next, a recent "the new york times" investigation titled "the unpunished, how extremists took over israel " details the horrors palestinians in the west bank have had to endure for decades. one of the journalists behind that reporting will join us from tel aviv, right after a quick break. quick break.

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kihr bet was home to 150 people, under constant threat from jewish settlers who steadily and illegally encroached on it. after october 7th, those threats turned into harassment and vandalism, and eventually, violent beatings. the villagers repeatedly appealed to the israeli police and military for protection but their calls went unanswered. the story of this village and many other like it is chronicled in a brand-new in- depth investigation from the new york times. "one day, the villagers packed they could, loaded their families and trucks, and disappeared. who bulldozed the village after that is a matter of dispute. the israeli army says it was the settlers. a senior israeli police officer says it was the army. either way, soon after the village was left, little

remained besides the ruins of a clinic and an elementary school. near the school, someone had planted the flag of israel as another kind of announcement. this is jewish land now. for decades, palestinians living in the west bank have been subject to violence a band of israelis to move in either by force or deception and illegally settle on what the world but not the israeli government considers palestinian land. for decades, most of these incidents have gone unpunished. israeli settlers growing increasingly extremist and violent operating with impunity. this new investigation by "the new york times" lays out in great detail how the israeli government's failure to put a stop to this violence means that lawlessness has become, de facto, the law. journalist ronan bergman published an exhaustive investigation based on over 100 conversations with current

government officials, including four former prime ministers as well as palestinian leaders and activists. it maps the long arc of harassment, assault, and murder of palestinians by jewish settlers to an extreme as movement that created from the fringe to the very center of israeli politics . you have heard me say that most israeli settlements in the west bank are illegal under international law but also, believe it or not, under israeli law. but, that israeli law is rarely enforced. despite how much you make it, palestinian and jewish settlers who live in the west bank, are separate people. they are kept apart, bound by different sets of rules and punishments . the west bank is under the command of the idf, which means palestinians living there are subject to military law and military courts, which come with far less oversight,

more punitive measures, and a lower bar for conviction and punishment. in theory, israeli settlers in the west bank should be subject to the same laws. in practice, they are treated according to the civil law of the state of israel, which means that the very same crime committed by a palestinian and an israeli would be investigated and treated fervently. more often than not, according to the times investigation, the settlor violence is met with leniency, pardons, sometimes ignored altogether. a two-tiered system of justice for two different groups living on the same land. ronen bergman and mark mazzetti write, "after 50 years of crime without punishment, in many ways the violent settlers and the state have become one." what do they mean by that? "the new york times" investigated a sample of three dozen cases of settlor violence since october 7th and found "in all the cases involving misdeeds as diverse as stealing livestock and assault and arson, not a single israeli suspect was charged with a claim." in one case, a jewish settlers

shot a palestinian in the while an israeli defense forces soldier looked on, yet the police questioned the shooter for only 20 minutes and never as a criminal suspect." ronen bergman and mark mazzetti document at the history of this unpunished violence dating back to the 70s, 80s and into the 90s. extremist settlers rarely met consequent for the violence they connected against arabs, setting up a troubling president, allowing some of those extremist to assume power and ultimately to drive israeli politics. in 1995, the israeli pre- minister was working on the oslo accords, a piece agreement with the leader of palestine, yasser arrafat. the extremists who relied on violence to push their nationalist goals do not want p so they turned their anger toward the israelis who were working to achieve that piece. ronen bergman and mark mazzetti write, "in october of that year, ben gavir held up a hood

and he had broken off of the official car of prime minister rabin during chaotic anti-oslo demonstrations. we got to his car and we will get to him to make. the following month, rabin was dead. rabin was assassinated by an israeli extremist. as far ben gavir, he was convicted multiple times for supporting terrorist organizations . itamar ben-gvir is now israel's national security minister. 2005, israel began to withdraw from gaza again so those extremes sellers begin to think bigger. "in 2005, the jewish department received intelligence about a plot to

slow the israeli withdrawal from gaza by using 700 liters of gasoline to blow up vehicles on a major highway. acting on a tip, officers arrested six men in central israel. one of them was the future minister overseeing civilian affairs in the west bank. bezalel smotrich was released without charges after that incident. bezalel smotrich and itamar ben-gvir were seen as extreme as the political courage in israel for years until benjamin netanyahu needed the country is far, far right to form a coalition government. now, israel's government is full of reticles with similar ideologies. doses that were once fringe have now gained control of the state itself. after a quick break, i will be joined by one of the journalists behind this investigation, ronen bergman is standing by. help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

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with absorbine pro, pain won't hold you back from your passions. it's the only solution with two max-strength anesthetics to deliver the strongest numbing pain relief available. so, do your thing like a pro, pain-free. absorbine pro. joining me now is a pulitzer prize-winning staff writer and "the new york times" magazine, ronen bergman, one of the journalists behind the investigation titled "the unpunished, how extremist took over israel." he's also the author of important books including "rise and kill, the secret history of israel's targeted assassinations." it is good to see you my friend, thank you for being with us this money.

>> thank you for the invitation. >> one of the most important aspect of this long and detailed story that has been reported for many, many years by you is the degree to which these people who were very clearly regarded even by israel's conservative political establishment as being entirely out of their and on the fringe are now central to decision- making in today's israel, itamar ben-gvir and bezalel smotrich in particular but there are others. >> yes, those are two processes happening at the same time. one of them is a shift. we see this in other countries as well, massive part of the israeli public to the right. throughout the previous decade. the second is benjamin netanyahu getting more entangled and legal proceedings and criminal charges of bribery and corruption and having less and less parties that are willing to join his coalition.

they say someone who is on trial for such charges can be, cannot be pre-minister. therefore benjamin netanyahu is building his base in the ultra right and the ultra religious orthodox. he forms a coalition. how he does that in 2022, he basically takes the fragments of the ultra right and pressure them to form one big party, even recommending voters, his party, that it is not very bad for them. itamar ben-gvir, who you mentioned, who had the picture of a, sorry for the noise, a picture of goldstein, who murdered 29 worshipers in the

cave of the patriarch in 1994, called him a saint, a person benjamin netanyahu refused, flatly refused to even have in his coalition, that person has -- >> he is a settlor, he lives in the, something very strange is happening with our shot. we will see if we can get it back. itamar ben-gvir is a settlor and i want to start with this idea of a two-tiered system of justice in the west bank, in the occupied territories. tangibly, you talk about what that means. we are talking about the fact that palestinians and israelis who live in the occupied territories get treated differently.

we have lost ronen bergman for a moment. i'm going to pass for a second and tell you what the article goes on to say. one of the things that he talks about is the degree to which of these right wingers about their own following. this might not be reflective of israeli society as a whole making a big shift to the right but israeli politics as a whole has made a massive shift to the right in large part because of the fragmented nature of the israeli political system. i know you are saying something to me but i don't know what. we do have ronen bergman? >> i am back. sorry. >> let me ask you about this, we know israeli politics has moved to the right and we know some of that has to do with the fragmented nature of israeli politics. you do actually have a lot of parties and you have a lot of small players.

has israeli society moved to the right? in the last couple of years as we seen protests against what benjamin netanyahu has done, where has that moved israeli society politically? >> israeli society undoubtedly moved to the right. and, i assume it is to near to make conclusions but all the polls also show that october 7th , the horrific terrorist attack by hamas, the massacre, has created yet another wave of moving to the right. however, the benjamin netanyahu government proved to the public of israel that beyond politics, even beyond the west bank, it cannot rule. it proved to be extremely incompetent, it proved to lead israel to the point of great weakness that led to october 7th and i think that many people in israel are now seeing, it is also reflected in the polls, that while they have a lot of mistrust toward the

possible palestinian two state solution, at the same time, they are not going to vote not for benjamin netanyahu and not for the ultra right and ultra religious parties. those parties had, for different reasons, but all of them align together for the so- called judicial overhaul trying to turn israel into some kind of kleptocracy or dictatorship. it failed but israel suffered the most devastating blow because of weakness, because of israeli adversaries seeing that. i think the israeli public are also seeing what is behind one of the reasons for that weakness. >> it is a long and detailed article that you and mike have written with interviews that go back many years. the audio version takes about an hour and i have. >> mark mazzetti . mark

mazzetti and myself. >> i appreciate all the work you've done. i would recommend it to my viewers. read the whole thing. it is long and detailed but with the of reading all of it. thank you so much, staff writer and author of "rise and kill, the secret history of israel's target assassinations." my new book "small acts of courage" just came out. i am traveling to several cities to talk about it. if you are in chicago today, join me at the chicago communities festival at the illinois institute of ecology to register and get tickets. had to