democrats are unlikely to save speaker johnson's job the next time his republicans try to throw him under the bus. that is tomorrow at 6 p.m. eastern here on msnbc. follow us on tiktok and threads using the handle. you can also catch clips of the show on youtube and listen to every episode of our show as a podcast for free. just scan the qr code you see on your screen to follow and listen anytime. keep it here. hi. >> every week i'm watching the trump trial here in new york and i'm wondering to myself how much lower our republicans going to take themselves in order to placate and please their coleader donald trump but i have to say watching what happened this week outside the courthouse was probably one of the lowest things i've seen in

have seen in american politics. expected it from matt gaetz but not the speaker of the house. >> we will talk about that and him on the sunday show tomorrow so i hope you don't beat me to it. >> we'll talk about it a little bit because there is a lot to be said about it. but this was a low point i think for the republican party. but we'll see what happens next week. it could be lower than what we saw this week. >> enjoy the rest of your night off. we wait to see if trump will take the stand in his own criminal trial. and a stunning new report shows the fall of roe has hit black women the hardest. i'm ayman, let's go do it.

this week, during two days of heated testimony in a new york courtroom, former president trump's legal team followed a clear strategy. attacking the credibility of the prosecutor's star witness former president trump lawyer michael cohen. attorney todd blanche repeatedly grilled cohen on a pivotal phone call he claimed he had on the hush money payment. he testified he got ahold of trump through keith schiller, donald trump's bodyguard. the call was only 90 seconds and he presented evidence that he had texted schillar about a teenager he claimed was prank calling. trump's lawyer insisted that was the real reason for the call and tore down his reason calling saying it was a lie. he also grilled cohen about his guilty plea. this brings us to the lingering

question hanging over this trial. who is more credible? michael cohen or donald trump? it was cohen who has owned up to his mistakes. of course, trump meanwhile has not apologized for his alleged wrong doing. he is denying that the affair with daniels even took place. for his defense team, he may insist on testifying in his own trial. while cohen managed to keep his cool during testimony, that has never been trump's forte making him an unpredictable explosive witness. he could quickly chip away at his own credibility with witnesses undoing whatever momentum his defense team was able to grasp this past week. we have an all-star panel with us tonight to start us off. joining me now, kristi

greenberg. formerfederal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. ankush kudari, and tom nichols, staff writer for the atlantic. great to have you with us. i will start with you kristi. you were in the courtroom. did you get a sense that was working on this jury? >> well, look, i think michael cohen, one of the things he did right as he said, he kept his cool. his demeanor was composed and respectful. that was something that was good for cohen. that said, i think that the defense did land some punches. they were not necessarily the body blows i think they could have landed but they landed some punches. they established pretty well the bias and hatred cohen has for trump and i think we all knew that. but when you are hearing from his own voice recordings that he is giddy about donald trump

being in jail. they were loud, boisterous. it was a little jarring. yes, i blamed the banks, the prosecutors. he blamed a judge. all of that serves to make him seem unreliable. i also thought they did a good job on motive. on direct cohen had said that he never really wanted a job in the white house. well on cross, we saw private messages to multiple people where cohen said yeah. he did want that job and he is very disappointed when he didn't get it. and then lastly, much has been made about the secret recording he made about donald trump. the content of that recording is helpful to show his knowledge of the karen mcdougal

payment but the fact it was recorded secretly really seems to undercut the argument that michael cohen did things always undating donald trump. that he never really went rogue. that he always sought his approval. when you are recording your own client, to share it with a third party without their knowledge, that is the kind of thing that is going rogue. so again, the defense did score some points where they body blows, no, they weren't. >> and if you are a part of the jury, who do you think has come across as more credible in this trial so far? trump or cohen? >> it is hard to say. i haven't been in the room for the couple so i don't want to render any kind of verdict on the credibility. but if you are asking that question. it is not really a great sign. for the prosecution. they need to prove their case beyond a reasonable doubt.

if you believe michael cohen is a essential part of the case, which he is. no prosecutor would have called him unless he was. it is not enough to say you believe him more than trump. if it is a batter of who is the most honest, that's not a good position. >> trump's lawyers know to keep him happy, you have to act like him. but do you think trump's idea of what makes good lawyering consistent with reality? >> this is where i make sure to pint out i'm not a lawyer but trump doesn't seem to understand that everything is not a tv show. we have seen this over and over again with what he has forced his lawyers to say. what he has forced spokes people to say. because for trump, it is all just virtual. it is all entertainment. and he is the main character in this narcissistic reality show. so i doubt.

i will assume some of the shakier things his lawyers have had to do the past few years were at his instigation. they are not bad lawyers. some of them are not very good. but he has hired pretty good legal talent and you have to assume he says this is whatn't i want you to say. and they say you're the client. i think it is all because he sees this as not as a show for the public. not as an actual trial in a court of law which doesn't mean anything to him. >> we saw that a little bit with the way trump's defense went after stormy daniels. accusing him of lying. does this work for trump's team? or would that make cohen more sympathetic to the jury?

>> so, look. i think michael cohen is the one witness where there should be an attack. if anything i would argue the attack on michael cohen should have been sharper than it was. with stormy daniels, it was completely ineffective. i agree with that, the comments on that. they were really focused on attacking her credibility about whether or not not only the sexual encounter happened but calling her essentially a liar because she was a porn star. saying of course she would have wanted to engage in this encounter all of which is really, you know, irrelevant and besides the point. it wasn't about, it isn't a sexual sought case. i feel like those attacks did not land with the jury in particular with the five women of the jury. also the women in the public. hearing the people exit the courtroom. there was a lot of disgust there. with cohen, i think it is all

fair game. this is somebody who has aid a lot of negative things about trump as well. all that is fair game for his cross. >> and expand on that from an optics perspective. >> i thought the cross to stormy daniels was way too sharp, aggressive, extensive. at times they wanted to suggest she was a liar. and at times they were in the weeds. the cross-examination didn't seem to go so well. she tossed back one liners. and, i also completely agree with christy. if there was going to be one witness and it was always going to come down to michael cohen. he is absolutely the person who is the weakest link in this case.

if anything, they should have been diminishing the significance. i agree there were sharper lines of attack. he still has a little time left. so we will see what he has in store monday. >> i want to get your reaction in switching gears here for a moment to talk about former trump lawyer rudy giuliani. it happened as he was leaving his 80th birthday party hosted by the adviser of kari lake. let me play for you giuliani's comments and i will get your reaction to it on the other side. >> they do not believe in and they want to change what our founding fathers gave us. well we are up to the people

who came before us. we will stand up, win it back. and led by donald trump, we will reestablish this country as the greatest country on earth. as the city on the hill. but everybody can admire. >> your reaction to all of that, tom? >> as former president trump, keep ronald reagan's name out of this. but it is pathetic. it is just sad. the other night i was watching documentary about the mob. and it reminds you how far this man has fallen and how pathetic a figure he has become. you have to ask yourself, you have to wonder why. at 80 years old, what he thinks is going to happen as if he is

going to somehow be made whole here. i wonder that with a lot of these trump hangers on. that they think if trump is reelected, they somehow just get one more moment in the light. one more moment of somehow being the thing they thought they were going to be. of all of them, some of them stand out as tragic and sad and i think that is where rudy is now. this was a guy a lot of republicans back in the day admired. not just for being america's mayor. to see this is just, it is cringe inducing at this point. >> what do you make of the multiple attempts to try and serve giuliani? the arizona attorney general and prosecutors and investigators tried multiple

times to serve him a summons. could he see repercussions for his disappearing act for not making himself available to those summons? >> not based on the fact that's have been known. i don't think so. ultimately, they were able to serve him at this party. but it is important context to know if it is pretty unseemly you would serve him there. the reason they do that, they had to try other ways and they were not successful. usually, you expect in the case like this, they would go to his council and his council would accept service. it appears that didn't happen here. stick around, up next, could trump get himself in more trouble using surrogates to skirt his gag order? ly ask my panel after this quick break. after this quick break. e here at verizon. get our biggest deals of the season. only until may 29th.

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i wanted him to know he had sport. watching his trial and what he did to trump, this is the weaponnization of the judicial system. >> all right, so that was disgraced texas attorney general ken paxton last month. also known as the original donald trump surrogate. weeks later, appear to be some kind of a rite of passage for trump sycophants. especially those that are auditions for the vice presidential spot. now they even comcast sportsnet pleat with trump costumes. take a look. >> what is going on inside the courtroom is a threat to american democracy, ladies and gentlemen. >> i'm a former litigator myself. i am disgusted by what is happening here. >> this is a sham. this is not the united states of america. this is some third rate banana republic. >> it's like the mr. potato

head doll of crimes. >> this is a scam. it is a sham. it is a show. and we are here to expose every bit of it. mr. president, we stand with you. >> matt gaetz didn't just hit the air waves for trump, but posted himself on x. may panel is back now. tom, i will start with you. just pull up this post. she referred to this clown, this trump surrogate as clones from hell. ridiculed as imitators. they stuck their jaws out and strutted around like leader. they had the black shirt, these fascists have the red tie. do you agree this is a comparable moment when you have

them out there auditioning physically and debasing themselves for donald trump? >> there is one difference, they don't want to be trump. they are not sycophants. these are guys that are putting on a show for voters, donors and trump himself saying pick me as your vice president. jd vance and doug burgham. vivek ramaswamy. these are not fundamentally stupid people. gaetz and boebert know what they are doing. they don'tlike they are buying

a lottery ticket. they will become perhaps the vice president of the united states. they will do everything to keep riding in the limos in dc. there is one big difference. the utter hollowness and cynicism and soulless opportunityism on display here from people who really ought to know better. and do know better. you could see doug's face in the background while vivek ramaswamy is talking. you could almost hear him say i used to be a governor. i had a real job here. and a lot of them are just stuck on this rocket sled. they go and do this. >> what do you make of gaetz's stand back and standby post which alludes to trump's infamous call to the proud

boys, this white nationalist extremist group? >> yeah, i thought it was wildly inappropriate and far beneath the dignity of anyone in public office. i would just add it is not a good idea in manhattan to have matt gaetz walking around. and ken paxton. these people are not popular in the jurisdiction. >> let me play for you bob good of virginia. here is what he said on fox yesterday. >> they have gotten this gag order against him. that is why we went up there. >> we heard this admission from tommy tuberville. what do youmaker of that, the

fact they are trying to undercut the spirit of the gag order? it is silly to think the gag order, yes it is only about trump. but it is also to protect the witnesses. the idea somebody else could come out there and attack the witnesses seems to undercut the spirit of the gag order. >> it contravenes the spirit of it. and the trial may be wrapping up in a matter of days. i can't imagine the judge wants to grapple with something like this. and most of the comments i have seen reported, they technically would not run afoul of the gag order because they don't concern specific witnesses or jurors. so at the level of generality, the judge would be annoyed but dealing with it. >> kristi, what do you make of how the circus has been going

after the judge's daughter? saying they are doing it because trump can't do it? >> yeah. so the part about labeling it as a sham and going after the judicial process as a whole, i agree that is fair game even for trump. the judge's daughter is a a different category. not only can donald trump not make statements about the judge's daughter, he cannot direct others to do so, so the question would be are any of the individuals who have made comments about the judge's daughter, have they done that at donald trump's direction? i know that would be difficult to prove and this is wrapping up. i don't think the judge is necessarily going to engage on that. but i will say it just shows you the judicial system is working. this judge seeing him day in and day out, he is exercising

such retain. he has done a wonderful job. if there is a true american hero, it is judge merchan. across the street, they are attacking his daughter and he is acting as a public servant with integrity. >> new york journalist magazine andrew rice was telling the startling observation he saw of trump. i want to get your reaction to it on the other side. >> i was sitting close enough to look at trump's shoulder. he was reading the quote at one point, the that the individuals and going through and making notations with a pen. >> before or after? >> while testimony was going on. he was going through and

annotating. >> quite remarkable right? first of all, i don't think they just rocked up to the courthouse on their own. the fact he is annotating their comments. the fact they are wearing red ties. you could infer there is some coordination about this. >> several of them are trying out for the veep stakes so of course, they want to know what does the boss want to hear? what are we supposed to say? they don't have to come directly from trump. there is a whole eco system that will more than happily provide distance between trump and the folks showing up outside the courthouse. so the idea that everybody showed up in blue suits and red ties and had these handy quote ready really strains the imagination. but it shows you how

unbelievably pathetic. to say i will be in the city. tell your boss, he has to show up and here are some things i would like him to say. he will be standing next to a few real clowns. the idea a united states senator or governor or anybody else would do this is really astonishing but the idea they would be doing it, it is unsettling. >> and embarrassing as well. thank you to the three of you for starting us off tonight. i appreciate it. coming up, black women in post roe america. a new study reveals major inequities in maternal health care. health care. but you can repair it with pronamel repair.

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more than half of black women between the ages of 15 and 49 years old live with little to neighboring access. that's the stunning headline from a new study released this week. abortion access. 7million black women. 57% of black women of reproductive age in the united states live in states that have restricted or banned abortion. for the last two years, black women in these states have been forced to weigh very difficult options and ask themselves tougher questions. like will i live through childbirth if i get pregnant. will i get arrested if i miscarry. should i give up on having a child altogether? it is great to have you with

us. in the months leading up to the supreme court decision. they were ringing the alarm bells about how this would impact the lives of black women in america. if roe would be overturned. with that in mind, did the findings of your study catch you at all by surprise. >> not really. and thank you so much for inviting me to be on this evening. i think what the report revealed is what we already knew. black women were experiencing disproportionate effects of abortion bans. that existed preroe. some of the harsher restrictions people tried to put in place and we knew black women were experiencing higher

maternal mortality rates and living without access to competent health care. it is terrible, but it is what people were afraid of. before dobbs, now we are living with the consequences. >> your research found that of the 26 states that have banned or are likely to, 17 also have above average maternal mortality rates. black women suffer with maternal mortality rates. how do they exacerbate the black maternal health crisis? >> you are absolutely right. most of the states that either ban or are likely to ban abortion also have very high

maternal mortality rates. and what we looked at and why that happens is because after dobbs, it has become much harder to access quality prenatal care. obgyn care. and in all of the things that contribute to and influence whether or not you are going to have a safe and healthy pregnancy, those problems existed prior to dobbs. now you have maternalty ward that's have closed. obgyn who don't want to practice. residents don't want to go to the states that now have the bans in place and restrictive policies so it has made it worse for those women who are living there and need to access quality care. on top of the fact that many black women have not been able

to access competent care because they either don't have access to providers who believe them, who are sensitive to their unique needs. who understand the context in which they live. all of those things have contributed to higher rates over the years. >> i wanted to ask you about a recent survey. white evangelicals opposed abortion that turned out to vote on the issue. now it seems the face of abortion voters has shifted to women of color. how motivating do you think this is issue for women across the country and how should democrats run on this issue? it does mobilize people to vote. even in very strong red states.

>> polling done by our partner makes it very clear black women and black communities generally understand the significance of dobs and the consequences of the overturning of roe as a threat to their individual freedom. it is a motivating factor for them. democrats and republicans, any lawmaker would be wise to not only be mindful of the concerns that black women have, but also understand that it is connected to many other things. black women are moms. and they provide economic stability for their families. it is not just about access to abortion. it is about access to the control they need to determine the best course for their family's life. >> thank you so much for your time and insight.

i greatly appreciate it. we will try to keep the spotlight on the issue all the way up to the elections. >> thank you. >> thank you. another biden staffer publicly condemns the israel hamas war and leaves her position in protest. aves her position in protest.

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how do you spell relief? r-o-l-a-i-d-s rolaids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief. on tuesday, in a town close to the gaza border, tens of thousands of israelis showed up for an ultra nationalist independence day march. quote, we must return to gaza now and encourage immigration. encourage the voluntary emigration of the residents of gaza. and the far right minister added and stated that he opposes transferring humanitarian aid into the gaza strip. members of his own government immediately called him out with

one official saying comments like this fuel monday's riots that official was refering to this. this situation that occurred monday where israeli protesters surrounded aid convoys. trashed and burned trucks that were leaving the west bank, bound for gaza with much needed humanitarian aid supplies. and inside gaza, of course, israel's military operation continued in rafah. a city it one deemed a safe zone. 600,000 sheltering palestinian haves now been force today leave that area or evacuate somewhere else into the gaza strip. on thursday, israel announced it was sending more troops into rafah despite months long warnings about the utter devastation it would cause. those working to provide life saving care are being stopped

from doing so. a united nations aid worker was killed and another injured by an israeli air strike while inside a u.n. marked car. israel says the vehicle was hit in what they declared an active combat zone. but a new report finds that israeli forces have carried out at least eight strikes on aid workers and premises in gaza since october even after they shared their coordinates with the israeli authorities to ensure their protection. despite this. despite the apparent targeting of aid workers and israel's disregard. in the reon and for peace between israelis and palestinians, joe biden is moving forward with a weapons

transfer to israel including $700 million in tank ammunition. $500million in tactual vehicles. israel won't get this for at least two years but the approval raises serious questions. especially because the state department said it was reasonable to assess. something that would usually disqualify any ally from receiverring american aid. it is policy decisions like this that have prompted staffers and military personnel to quit. earlier this week, an army officer assigned to the defense intelligence agency resigned in protest. he wrote the policy that has never been far from my mind on the past six month is the unqualified support for the government of israel which has

enabled the killing of tens of thousands of innocent palestinians. then, an interior department staffer became the first jewish political appointee to publicly resign in protest. according to the associated press, it is at least the fifth or mid senior level staffer within the biden administration to publicly resign over the white house's handling of the war. she is also the second political appointee to do so. palestinian american resigned from his job at the department of education back in january. there is an interesting point here. josh paul, a former state department official who we have had on this show and the first person to resign in the wake of israel's retaliatory campaign in gaza revealed in a recent interview, as far as he knows, about two dozen people in the federal government have resigned in the last month. this, the sheer number of resignations is not normal. sure, cabinet officials resign

during trump's first administration over his own conduct. but rarely have we seen so many officials resign in protest over a president's handling of a war and his complicity in what many peel is a american backed genocide. i will speak to one of the officials that feels that way when we come back. stay with us. when we come back. stay with us. a big deal. then i saw my doctor and found out i have afib, and that means there's about a 5 times greater risk of stroke. toms like irregular heartbeat, heart racing, chest pain, shortness of breath, fatigue, or light- headedness can come and go. but if you have afib, the risk of stroke is always there. if you have one or more symptoms, get checked out. holding off on seeing a doctor won't change whether or not you have afib. but if you do, making that appointment can help you get ahead of stroke risk.

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before the break, i talked about the growing dissent among u.s. officials. joining me now is one of the latest biden official to resign. great to have you with us. i wanted to start by reading something that you said in your resignation letter. you write jewish safety cannot and will not come at the expense of palestinian freedom. making jews the face of the american war machine makes us less safe, explain what you mean. >> i think every day, the american public, the jewish community have been geting the message from the president. that the justification for this genocide is jewish safety. that this is necessary to keep jews safe. he said if there was not an israel, jews around the world

would not be safe. that is devastating to hear as an american je w. right in my family came here to find safety. to hear the president of the united states tell me without israel, i wouldn't be safe? that is really terrifying. but it is clear in the rhetoric used that the justification is jewish safety. and we have to reject that framework that jewish safety and palestinian safety are at odds with each other. >> you mentioned president biden's disastrous continued support for israel's continued genocide. given all of the evidence that you have seen and what others have documented by what is taking place in gaza, what do you want to see happen immediately and in the mid to

short term? >> the president has the power to call for lasting cease fire. he could do that and doubt right now. in 2021, when israel was bombing gaza, he called benjamin netanyahu and said we are out of runway and the bombing stopped. i don't know where that president biden is but he could stop. i'm an american jew. it is not up to me to decide what happens. but i know what is happening with american tax dollars is wrong. >> what is the significance of why you decided to do it now? you decided to release your letter on wednesday which happen today be the 76th anniversary of the catastrophe, the mass exodus. why was it so important for you

to do it on that day at this point in the war? >> they need the same thing. catastrophe. i was raised by the fairy tale of the founding state of israel. if anything, i was told that it wasn't true. it was important for me to acknowledge the significance of that. the breaking point was that the president is really ignoring his own red line with the invasion of rafah. once i saw the one billion dollars in arms transfer going through, i decided that i couldn't lose too much. >> there are those watching this saying you represent a very small part of the jewish american population. certainly the jewish perspective on this war. what do you say to those

critics that say by amplifying your voice or talking to you, you are focusing on a small part of the jewish voice that should not be given this much national attention? >> i want to acknowledge the fear. the way my community is scared and i'm scared too. what i'm most scared of is that the president is using us as justification for slaughter. that he is making jews the face of the american war machine. and i want my community to be really clear eyed and consider what that means for us and see what the rest of the country sees. that jews are being used for justification for this and it does not make us safe. >> can you talk to us about your own personal experience? about israel and dealing with the palestinian issue? has this evolved gradually?

is this something you share with others? >> i was raised in a very pro israel community. i was very lucky to have a lot of opportunities for my world to expand. to get to know palestinians. and i woulds call myself a justice oriented person and it became clear once i saw the injustices the palestinians experience in israel palestine,, that was out of alignment with my values. there are more of us within the jewish community than i think it seems sometimes. and i hope that our voice only grows louder. >> let me ask you about the other part of this. as a former member of the administration, what is the discussion taking place behind

closed doors? he mentioned about two dozen people have resigned from the federal government last month. we obviously don't have that confirmed independently. but in the circles you have, have there been more resignations we don't know about? >> i don't know as much about resignations. >> what is the sentiment? >> there is widespread sentiment on the president's handling of the situation. in gaza. and, it is very clear that it is a small group of leadership within the administration not only not listening to some of their own colleagues. but to the majority of americans who want a cease fire and who are horrified. >> i appreciate your time. thank you your spending your saturday with us and best of

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