welcome back to the weekend. in less than 24 hours, michael cohen will take the stand for his fourth day and donald trump's election interference trial. he was berated by heated cross examinations last week by trump's team. today will be the 19th day in court. the prosecution signaled they won't be calling anyone else to the stand and the defense said last week that trump still has not decided if he will testify. joining us now is our msnbc justice and legal affairs analyst, anthony coley. director of the office of public affairs and senior advisor to attorney general merrick garland. and legal analyst kristi greenberg. a former federal prosecutor and former criminal division deputy

chief for the southern district of new york. say that five times. >> i want to read you something. this is from the new york times. the trump trail nears the end. if the jury chooses to believe the government's evidence, a conviction is warranted. although noted that mr. cohen remains the linchpin of the case. the jury does not have to believe all of what cohen has to say but have to believe enough of it. i wonder if you agree with both the last part and if this gives prosecutors an edge. >> that is where i met. i don't believe everything that was set on the stands. i don't believe everything said about the past conduct. he changed his stories a number of times. i don't believe the judge was corrupt and and on the prior case. i have issues with some of the things said. as to the conduct, i think you have to believe him.

he is the one in the room with donald trump or donald trump says he was angry about the stormy daniels issue. and delaying the payment, that was donald trump saying, the reason you make the delay, hopefully until after the election. it had nothing to do with melania trump but everything to do with the election . could the jury piece that together from other witnesses circumstantially? yes. but the direct evidence is coming from donald trump. as for the falsified business records aspect, once again, you have evidence from others like jeff mcauley who talks about the fact that this was a reimbursement and then deborah tarts off from the trump administration saying anything over $10,000, donald trump is approving. so you have circumstantial evidence. michael cohen has always said, he was reimbursing me for these specific stormy daniels payments. i think you need to believe that is the case and he actually showed that document

of the handwritten notes on how the payments were going to be made in order to get the falsified business records and prove knowledge and intent of those. >> how much of this that we saw last week was largely just performance art by blanche? this was really just feeding gruel to donald trump who is sitting there stewing in his own stuff. my concern with all of this is that, that performative part of this, and i get what people are saying about the jury but i think people just need to be prepared for this thing going sideways because i think that performance does have an effect. you know how that goes. talk a little bit about what that does to a jury when they see -- either the prosecutor or defense, performing that way and i think somewhat

effectively. >> it is so interesting what we saw from todd blanche. it was meandering. until we got to the thursday time frame right around lunch time. when he had this perry mason moment. but at his core, i think he was really trying -- michael cohen has been on the stand for three days. i think what he was trying to do is really wear this guy down. trip him up in a way to have that one moment. what blanche did not appreciate is that this is a michael cohen now who is disciplined in a way that we saw back when he testified at congress and you have folks like -- not any stretch of them in education . he landed the punch that he

expected to land. and the clear narrative that the prosecutors have put together. i'm not a lawyer. i look at the narrative. the narrative is easy to follow. it starts with donald trump being in the room in august of 2016 with michael cohen and the guy who oversaw the national enquirer. and it was in that moment where they had this catch and kill skiing. the motive. the middle of the story where the documents take center stage with the canceled texts. all those types of things. we learned during that moment that donald trump is a micromanager. a penny pincher. hope hicks said he ran as a global organization like a family business. and then we end with michael cohen putting more meat on the bone . putting donald trump in the room. you only need one person to say, i just don't know.

and i would not bet against this prosecution. >> really quickly, kristi triggered something for me where she said, i had problems with some of the stuff he was saying. and i was saying, i'm a juror and i have the same problems. and so therefore, was that fixed? >> to kristi, kristi is a trained legal professional. anthony collins is a trained communication professional. >> he comes off like a lawyer. >> but if even kristi is like, i don't believe everything. which he said that, and i said, if kristi doesn't believe everything michael cohen said , does the jury believe everything michael cohen said? and if they don't, can they still vote to convict? >> i think that is the real

challenge here. when i was a prosecutor -- and michael cohen is not a cooperating witness. he has served his time and pled guilty. he does have the function of being the linchpin really of the case. and so i never put up a witness where i really felt like he was critical. if i didn't believe everything he was saying and i could look to the jury and say, this is a credible witness and you should believe him. it is very difficult to say. and it's not that you haven't put up witnesses where they have done bad things or who have murdered people or committed violent crimes. but they owned up to them. and i could feel confident saying, everything you heard from the witness who has been fully debriefed, we feel confident with his testimony where he is telling you the truth and the jury should believe him. having to say, certain parts of it, yes, it's not steady. but he went off on a rant.

he blamed the banks and the accountants and the federal prosecutors and the judge and then blamed donald trump. that was one line of questioning that was very effective from the defense because it kind of brought donald trump and with all these people that michael cohen has an ax to grind with. and you think it seems unreasonable from a juror perspective that he would think that a federal judge was in on trying to get him and was really corrupt in his prosecution. if you think that is unreasonable, maybe you should think it is unreasonable that he has claims that donald trump is at the access of all of this. i think the problem is that the prosecution has done such a good job of getting us to this point where he is so cooperative. and the defense doesn't have the theory. you have to believe that in order to believe the defense, that after the access hollywood tape and the stormy daniels story hits, donald trump was hands off.

he just let michael cohen do whatever he was going to do to handle it. that doesn't make since. and you have to believe that these delays and the payment to stormy daniels, if it was all about melania and these payments were just to protect himself and his family, why delay the payment? it doesn't make since. all the checks he is signing for $35,000, what were they for? legal expenses? for what? we have not heard about any legal work being done. they were not treated like legal expenses in the trump organization. there are so many questions i feel like the defense doesn't have a coherent theory and they don't have to. they can just say, we are poking holes. prosecutors have not met their burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. they can do that but there are so many unanswered questions and i think the prosecutor theory is so clear and corroborated. you believe michael cohen. and i think the jury should convict here. will they? there are two lawyers on that jury. that is the thing that concerns me here when you take a real

look at this. >> anthony, speaking to you as a professional, i want to show you this headline from the wall street journal. "if trump testifies, could it hurt his case ?" and i have to imagine that is the rhetorical question. in some cases, a defendant's testimony can be helpful to winning a case according to lawyers, but the defendant needs to be disciplined and come across as honest. anthony coley, i'm sure you have set with many people and trained them on how to be disciplined and how to make sure they come across as honest. that is a high bar for the person we are talking about here. >> extraordinarily high bar for the person we are talking about here. my hope, my wish, as i hope donald trump testifies. every time he has testified , it has worked out for him. i'm thinking back to the carol deposition. do you remember that moment where he was trying to

undermine her saying, she is not my type. and then he has been shown a picture of her and confuses her with his ex-wife. and i'm reminded that in this particular case, the judge has already ruled that if donald trump takes the stand, the prosecutors can ask him about prior bad acts. prosecutors can ask him about being found liable for defaming e. jean carroll. prosecutors can ask him about being found liable for the fraudulent business practices. over many years of the trump organization. for all of those reasons, i cannot imagine he would testify but i wish he would. >> that boy is not getting anywhere near that witness chair. >> we could all be surprised. we don't know. it is up to donald trump. >> you go, donald. >> it sounds like the washington wall street journal

is telegraphing like, don't do it. it could hurt your case. i mean, it could hurt you. it could be helpful. but we think it could hurt you. the new york times had this piece about the tactics donald trump has used over the years and that these tactics have shown up in this trial and then juxtapose that with the ap story that talks about todd blanche putting on a show for donald trump. todd blanche is a real lawyer and i just wonder, kristi, as someone who does you know, todd blanche is a real lawyer and it is my understanding he has a great reputation. even he has debased himself throughout the process. i remember how he opened his cross with michael cohen asking about things michael cohen said about him as the lawyer and making it about himself right out of the gate. and i don't know where the strategy is. what is your take on this particular defense team that donald trump has assembled and

what will happen next week? >> i worked as a prosecutor alongside todd blanche. they have had trial experience. todd blanche was a supervisor of the violent crimes unit. that is the unit that had the most trials. he has not only prosecuted a number of trials but supervisor number of trials as well. with that said, a number of the things he has done strategically have been really surprising to me. attacking the prosecutors and saying that they engaged in discovery violations where he knew he could have gotten the documents himself. leading the judge to scold him and say, you are not only accusing them of misconduct but your accusing the court. and you don't have the case site to do that. they requested to remove the judge twice and are suing the judge.

which is sort of this extreme delay tactic. he is defended without any falling on your sword or apology. donald trump's attack on witnesses and in this case, on jurors, got up with a straight face and told the judge, donald trump is trying to comply with the gag order. we know he is not trying to comply with the gag order leading the judge to say, you lost all credibility with the court. that happened before the trial had even started. i think a lot of these tactics are questionable. and a lot of this is at the direction of his client who just wants to employ that kind of tactic of attack, attack, attack. it doesn't work. the person you should be attacking, there is one witness and it is michael cohen. that is the person to have a nice sharp cross. i agree with anthony completely. it is meandering. it happens with every witness. it happens with stormy daniels and shaming her. that was completely uncalled

for. you don't attack everybody. you kind of pick where you are going to go with it. and they haven't really done not. as a result, it has not been as effective. >> you are sticking with us. symone, we are saying goodbye to you so that you can go to meet the press. we have more to discuss. next, talking about rudy giuliani and what he got for his 80th birthday yesterday. indicted. and we are watching morehouse college in atlanta where president biden will deliver the commencement address this morning. this is "the weekend".

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absorbine pro. rudy giuliani rudy giuliani was served with an indictment over the arizona 2020 for a collector scheme during his 80th birthday party late friday. the extra employer is the latest in a string of trump allies and lawyers charged with trying to prevent the lawful transfer of power after president biden won the election fairly. rudy giuliani was served two hours after boasting on social media that he would evade charges taunting the arizona attorney general. guess what. the posts have been deleted. anthony coley and kristi greenberg are back with us. >> attorneys who can take their own advice is what i thought when i saw the tweet posted and deleted. >> here is the thing. here is the reason it was

important to me and michael to make sure we had this story in the show today. we have all been hyper focused on the new york trial for very good reason. there is a large appetite in this country to see some accountability as it relates specifically to the question of the way in which republicans, donald trump and his allies, have messed with the integrity of our election outcome. while that is happening in new york, it is not entirely disconnected from what we are watching outside arizona and as a reminder, is not just about donald trump as an individual being held accountable. it is about the entire cobol that supported him. and making sure that in the run- up to this election, you are broadcasting to anybody who might want to try these shenanigans again. that it is not going to happen. not here, not in the united states, without consequences. >> that is right. and that is the way to describe

it. we have all talked about trump's efforts to steal the last election as the big lie and it is that. it is also a big conspiracy. a conspiracy that played out with multiple players and multiple states. georgia, michigan, nevada and arizona. what we're talking about today. it amazes me about this entire scheme is the arrogance of it all. and the fact that all of these codefendants ignored him across the country including eight and arizona that affirmed the a win of joe biden over donald trump. i will step back. i never made this analogy on air. but because the fund medals are different. but i think the outcome is the same. i worked on the al gore campaign. from the iowa caucuses all the

way to a florida recount. on december 13th, 2000, when the supreme court ruled in george w. bush's favor, i was crushed. there were millions of people that supported al gore. we were crushed. the people that worked on the campaign were crushed. that did not give us a license to ignore what the court had found. we accepted the results. that is why these folks in the trump orbit, that is what they should have done. instead, they ignore the facts and worked around the law. that is why they are on the cusp of criminal accountability right now. >> to the much to that point, you had rudy giuliani doing a live stream of his birthday party with his guests which of course included steve bannon and roger stone. unfortunately, the last few did not show him being served. that would have been really fun. i do want to play for you a little sound from steve bannon

making a promise to rudy giuliani on his birthday. >> this is how dangerous the guy is. every instrument of state power from bankrupting to smearing him, we are not going to let it happen. >> rudy, it 80 years old, how many people at 80 years old come your moment will come. we are not going to win in 2024 unless you are a major part of this. >> the nonsense that steve bannon said notwithstanding, the reality was that he got served. and so the justice system rolled past all of that. speak to us a little bit about the importance of this indictment relative to all the other play as far as we have

seen out here that have been unfolding. some now stymied as we see with the case , the prosecution in washington and elsewhere with jack smith and everything slowing down. talk about why this changes the game a little bit at the margins . >> i always take a step back thinking about rudy giuliani and just remember that he is not only an attorney but as the former u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york, my old office. this man was the top prosecutor in manhattan. for him to be mocking other law enforcement, others that are just trying to serve him with papers and try to skirt the law, it is just so astounding to me. he has been charged in georgia in connection with similar electors schemes they are. now he is charged and arizona.

he has come up in this new york case as the person trying through his good friend robert costello to establish a back channel to donald trump for we know he has been found liable for defamation. workers and moving freedom in georgia. his legal troubles just keep mounting and at some point, there has to be some accountability. and arizona is another step toward the accountability. >> thank you so much for bringing with us, kristi greenberg. anthony, stick around. we have more to talk to you about. including the speech at morehouse college, your alma mater. expected to happen at any moment. here is a live look we have for you right now. you are watching "the weekend". weekend

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here is a live look at the ceremony right now. president biden is expected to speak to the graduates any minute now. we may dip into that sound if we need to. right now our friend anthony coley is with us. >> the question i have, and we are joined by alexi mckinnon is exciting to have her at the table with us. how are you assessing this moment? biden going to a renowned institution like morehouse and having this conversation with these young graduates who, for all intents and purposes, did not have this leading high school four years ago in the midst of covid being a

different environment for them. but now, having the president stand before them and talk to them not just about this moment in their graduation but their future with this selection looming in the background? >> i think it will make it more real. for folks not wanting the election to happen in the background . and they will get to see joe biden in the flesh for the first time which carries the risk sun also rewards. it is important, as you mentioned come to speak to black men in particular. talk to voters especially college students who are upset over his handling of israel and gaza. i think when it comes down to of course is not just saying the things they want to hear about in terms of politics but showing then the vibe and the personality of the type of person and leader they would want to support and be behind, showing them the joe that we know as his campaign would say in 2020 with respect to black voters. really kind of reemerging or highlighting that special relationship he has with black voters. not just focusing on the campaign and politics.

>> i'm curious, anthony, what you think we will hear from the president knowing the amount of time, effort and thought that goes into a speech like this >> my hope is that he keeps the conversation focused on the graduate and does it in a way where he wraps it in his own personal narrative. what we know from focus groups and from polling, is that a lot of young people, including these young men, they don't know a lot about joe biden. as a reminder, they were all born after 9/11. keep that in mind. >> thank you for making us all feel extraordinarily old. do you want to tell everybody the year you graduated from morehouse now that we are throwing around dates? >> i came out of morehouse 24 years ago and 2000. here is what is interesting about this moment.

we all -- when i graduated 24 years ago, we were all getting information differently. we were getting information from newspapers and from tom brokaw at 6:30. now these kids largely get information from social media and from algorithms and what they are being fed. not just things that morehouse but getting these snippets of information. that doesn't show the entire story of joe biden or the narrative of this presidency. >> for someone like you, of this generation, from your perch at the washington post as an opinion editor, will how do you frame this moment for your cohorts and colleagues who are emerging into this space?

the young men that are sitting here listening. what you say to them? how do you help to find this period in american politics? >> likely i don't to do it alone. that would be a tall order and i have amazing colleagues. we have done a great job covering the campus protests. and really, we looked at it as documenting history. we have a series the voices from students around the country coming and talking about what the experience was like and being there and when the graduation was interrupted and what they are doing now. and it is part of documenting history and sharing their voices and making sure they are heard, not just in this moment but for years to come. it is also sharing information with them that they might not see on tiktok or things they might not take the time to read otherwise and putting those all together in ways that they will resonate with. not just a long columns but different things and different mediums you were talking about. i think at the end of the day, politics is so passionate and young people are incredibly

passionate and emotional and i mean that in a good way. sometimes it makes you defy logic or look the other way when you are feeling one type of way and the facts are telling you, joe biden may not be that bad. i don't know that a lot of people want to hear that. >> i take your point about part of this being generational and having grown up in a post- 9/11 america. just given that for those of us who came of age after september 11th, it changed the way you thought about america's rule on the world stage of the way you thought about the american presidency. it fundamentally shaped our worldview. thank you so much for being with us. >> next, the latest calls for justice alito to step aside from trump cases after displaying an inverted flag at his home. this is "the weekend". help fuel today with boost high protein, complete nutrition you need... ...without the stuff you don't. so, here's to now. boost.

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justice alito recusing

himself from cases concerning donald trump are mounting. house leader jeffries putting out a statement saying "samuel alito should apologize immediately for disrespecting the american flag and sympathizing with right wing violent insurrectionist. you must recuse himself from cases involved in the 2020 election and former president donald trump". congresswoman jamila pliable is with us. >> thank you for joining us. >> great to be with you. >> justice alito blamed all of this on his wife. do you believe him? >> no. that was a sham move. cowardly move i would say. but listen, if the supreme court justices want to control women's bodies across the country, then a supreme court justice should be able to control what flag is put on the flagpole at their house.

this was not a flag there for just a couple of hours. this was there for several days. he did not deny it. i think that the level of corruption and conflict of interest that have plagued the supreme court have really contributed to the lowest ever ratings of trust of the american people and the highest court of the land and i think he has to recuse himself from the 2020 election cases before him. but i don't know if he will. >> i think that is where americans become frustrated. at least those of us paying attention and as you say, this is a court that does not seem to be held to account. you have people blame to the chief justice saying, he should be able to get his own house in order and clearly he is not up to the task. they are not being held to a code of ethics that would allow a forceful recusal for them. there has been interest on the part of the senate judiciary to

considering an investigation into what has happened here. for americans who are saying, how to behold this institution to account, what is the answer? >> i think the answer is that justice roberts is clearly not holding them to account. the code of ethics he put out has no enforcement whatsoever pick it is a weak cold to start with. i think congress needs to step in and senator durbin has said that this is the direction he wants to go. i think that is the only answer because i don't think people understand that the supreme court, the highest court of the land, is the only federal court that has no accountability whatsoever when it comes to ethics. senator warren and i have also a bill with supreme court ethics and the anticorruption act. there or at any number of ways we can legislate. the idea that we will leave it to justice roberts to do something about this has just been clearly proved wrong. he is not able to control his court or he doesn't want to.

whatever it is, it is a bad situation where people cannot trust that the supreme court is making decisions with objectivity or without corruption. let's not forget that justice alito is also the justice that had taken a trip with a billionaire hedge fund manager. that hedge fund manager several cases before justice alito. similar to clarence thomas. same situation where you have spouses who are involved in the 2020 election. ginni thomas more clearly. now with this flag incident at samuel alito's house. you can't just say, that is my wife and i'm trying to deal with this. this is improper and undermines the legitimacy of the supreme court. most important, hurts our democracy when these cases come up because these people are clearly biased. >> michael, can you imagine the uproar there would be if justice brown jackson flu is

like upside down. showing this type of disrespect to the flag. >> not only that but compound that with all the other scripting brought to the attention of the american people. republicans would be in cramps. they would be so bent over in pain from watching this unfold. and yet, they want to excuse it away. and so congresswoman, you have cnbc supreme court justices noting supreme court justice clarence thomas has been pressing him on whether or not he has addressed the 267,000- dollar rv loan. and that justice thomas has done nothing to address the perception that we have failed to report

hundreds of thousands of dollars in forgiven debt of his field income tax returns and pay the income tax owed. the reality is that they are acting with impunity. these folks are behaving as if they are above the law. there are no ethical standards. we saw this exercise of them putting together some ethics plan as a joke. it is not enforceable. it has no teeth. it means nothing. what does this mean for justice roberts to have all of this happening with at least two members of the court who are egregiously flaunting finance roles and showing obvious political bias and sitting on cases and ruling on those cases with no apparent recourse? >> i'm glad you went to justice roberts. this is the roberts court. he has clearly shown that he has no capacity to lead the court.

he is unwilling to hold his own justices accountable. he is unwilling to make sure that his court has legitimacy with the american people. we are at the lowest levels of trust ever in the highest court of the land. that is a stunning situation and it has tremendous implications for our democracy and the justice system and justice roberts is doing nothing about it . and i thought that he would be somebody who would have some skin in the game in terms of wanting to have legitimacy to his court. that is clearly not true. if you look at the ethics code they put out, and i looked at it again this morning, it is weak at best. it has zero accountability. there is no enforcement whatsoever. and already, these justices have violated the things that are in the code. so justice roberts needs to be the one to say , you need to recuse yourself from these

cases and of course around the transparency and corruption . what is said they it is in the country where supreme court justices can be bought off with fishing trips at luxury lodges in alaska or wherever they are going. it is a terrible situation for our people. >> and saturday, the supreme court justice hangs the flag of the united states upside down on his front porch. that, to me, is an abomination. congresswoman, stick around. we have more we want to talk to you about. specifically the latest two states to put abortion rights on the ballot in november and what that could possibly mean for democrats on election night. you are watching "the weekend". laids' dual-active formula begins to neutralize acid on contact. r-o-l-a-i-d-s spells relief.

women to make decisions about their own bodies on the ballot. colorado and south dakota are the latest two states that would preserve abortion-rights to the 2024 ballots. congresswoman pramila jayapal is with us. >> to get you out of your official capacity and get your political had on in a moment, the politics of abortion generally is very difficult for republicans . but would it be your assessment that it is becoming even more tricky as more states now are responding. since the party said, leave it

to the states. and the states are saying, we want this issue on the ballot as either a constitutional reinforcement of abortion- rights or for clarification of where our state stands on abortion and protecting women's rights. how do you assess the politics of more states, now five, coming online and drawing that very bright line? >> let's just be detectives looking at the facts here. first of all, donald trump is to blame for appointing supreme court justices and bragging about the fact that he was going to get a supreme court that overturned roe v wade. that is fact number one . number two, the republican study conference in the house which constitutes 100% of leadership and 80% of all republicans put in the budget they just released, a nationwide abortion ban, including a lot of stuff around ivx and other things that we see that go far beyond abortion

including essentially putting limits on contraception. fact number three, you have republican state legislatures pushing for abortion bans. and in the states, i think it is 21 states across the country, that is one out of three women of reproductive age that live in a state that has an extremely restrictive or full ban on abortion . those are the facts. what republicans are trying to is suddenly try to run away from it because it is not very popular. and the state level republicans are not running away from it. for the most part, they are pushing forward. the national republicans including donald trump, is somehow trying to say that now they support women having some control over their body. it is total malarkey to use the president packed buzzword.

the reality is that democrats have been consistent about, we are going to protect and codify abortion rights when we get the trifecta back and states are saying that republicans, independence and democrats are saying we are going to put this on the ballot because we don't trust the supreme court and frankly, we are not sure about congress because we are not sure who will control congress. so let's take control into our own hands. i think it is a very positive thing that states are going forward and putting the right to abortion as a constitutional right on the ballot but it is a result of republicans taking away that right. >> alexi, how does this play out for younger women at the forefront as the congresswoman noted. one third of women who are having to deal with this issue in states that are now restricting the rights?

what have you found to your reporting? and the young women in your cohort, what are they saying and how galvanizing is this moment for them? because they are the first generation now without roe v wade >> we have seen a huge change. these ballot initiatives have been successful even in red states like kansas and kentucky. women, men, independent voters and families are affected. i think what is really changing the calculus for women is seeing the ways in which the congresswoman mentioned, republicans are going passed these drugs and it is apparent that it is about control and power over women and disallowing us to have any autonomy over our own bodies and people see that and they know that and they want to be able to vote against that. >> finished the point. as they were saying that, part of what it strikes for me, congresswoman, is the connection of the dots. we have been talking about the new york case with donald trump

which is about election interference. we have been talking about rudy giuliani being invited in the arizona case and about what is happening at the supreme court. the decisions they have already made that have led us to these decisions still before them. you realize you have to look at it as a larger concerted effort to undermine not just reproductive freedom but democracy itself. >> i could not have said it better. i think that is what is so scary. we are looking at our fundamental freedoms including the freedom to vote and including the freedom to have our votes count an election including control over our own bodies, including what government agencies are able to put forward as rules. there are all kinds of things right now that are about undermining a democratic society. and the idea of democracy and i think that is what makes it so scary. donald trump has said what he wants to do which is he wants to be a dictator on day one.

he wants to have complete and total control over every single thing in this country and every person in the country. he will have the last word on everything. that is terrifying. >> congresswoman pramila jayapal, indeed. what a note to end on. that is exactly where we land because the stakes are so high. that is it for the weekend on the sunday. thank you to our friend alexi mckennon for hanging out with us. we will see you back here next sunday on 8:00 eastern. a quick break with charles coleman filling in for ali. >> see you tomorrow. u tomorr that's why i love my swiffer wetjet. it's a quick and easy way to get my floors clean. wetjet absorbs and locks grime deep inside. look at that! swiffer wetjet.

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